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  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Almost as bad as enobling an alleged paedophile like Lord Janner.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    MTimT said:

    The title of this piece mad me laugh - and think of the run up to the 2015 election:

    http://nypost.com/2015/12/27/hey-outraged-liberals-twitter-is-not-real-life/

    Personally I enjoy mocking the passionate lack of humour of some of the socially liberal because I am socially liberal myself (economically, less so), so I'm not mocking from a position of anger at some of their positions (unless it's something truly off the wall ridiculous) so I won't lose my own cool, and also because then if they assume it's because I'm some 1950s obsessed social conservative it can be even funnier to see such people (far from representative as they are) struggle with the idea someone might agree with them in most things, but still think their extreme position and or rudeness makes them look like a tit.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883

    SeanT said:

    Has anyone noticed that some weird shit is happening in Corsica?

    While we were all watching Le Pen, Nationalists seized power in Ajaccio. And now there are proper race riots.

    http://tinyurl.com/nfoh6hv

    http://www.france24.com/en/20151227-corsica-demos-banned-after-two-days-anti-arab-protests

    The Corsican flag is unusual;
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_and_coat_of_arms_of_Corsica
    There's a significant overlap between FN and the Corsican nationalists. In Provence and on the island, both groups remain very bitter over the loss of Algeria.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    PS - there is a serious point here. Since the success of Tom Knox, and, even more, since the success of S K Tremayne, I've noticed my vitriol levels decline, and it's not just because I have much less time to vent (though that is true).

    I don't quite have the anger: it's hard to be perpetually angry when you're stupidly lucky. These days I feel more guilt than anger.

    I am therefore beginning to see why so many celebs and luvvies are so stupidly, infuriatingly leftwing. It's the guilt that comes with success.

    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    I had noticed when you did your telegraph columns your insults on PB dropped a few levels.

    I guess you had to be a bit more careful in your blogs there.

    You couldn't write a blog about mewling lefty twats or a posh boy Tory twats, you had to display more elan.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Almost as bad as enobling an alleged paedophile like Lord Janner.

    Alleged ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Almost as bad as enobling an alleged paedophile like Lord Janner.

    That hardly seems fair.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    PS - there is a serious point here. Since the success of Tom Knox, and, even more, since the success of S K Tremayne, I've noticed my vitriol levels decline, and it's not just because I have much less time to vent (though that is true).

    I don't quite have the anger: it's hard to be perpetually angry when you're stupidly lucky. These days I feel more guilt than anger.

    I am therefore beginning to see why so many celebs and luvvies are so stupidly, infuriatingly leftwing. It's the guilt that comes with success.

    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    Well keep your fingers crossed, but keep paying your taxes in the meantime.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    Well, it's at least original, as far as New Year's resolutions go.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774


    What is Tim's twitter account called ?

    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 1h1 hour ago
    @DavidWooding @MomentumHudds @hilarybennmp Lansman organises the thugs for Corbyn, refuses interviews, likes young front men.
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 1h1 hour ago
    @DavidWooding @MomentumHudds @hilarybennmp Corbyn didn't found it, founded by entrepreneur Jon Lansman, who owns the Momentum franchise
    View conversation 0 retweets 3 likes
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 1h1 hour ago
    @MarkReckons @paulwrblanchard He'd have to sack everyone if that was the benchmark.
    Hilary Benn is an anti fascist, which Corbyn hates.
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 1h1 hour ago
    @tnewtondunn Like cutting Nurse training places, a cut that increases spending.No wonder Osborne never hits a target.
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 1h1 hour ago
    @PeoplesMomentum @MomentumHudds @hilarybennmp Momentum franchises are handed out by the owner of the Momentum Ltd Co, Jon Lansman.
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 2h2 hours ago
    @smith_writes Well so is Jeremy Corbyn, he's changed all his views on NATO and the http://EU.Man of principle.Thats what you want?
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 2h2 hours ago
    @smith_writes Corbyn has always opposed NATO and EU membership.
    Want a party that agrees with that?
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 2h2 hours ago
    @smith_writes Remember the hapless IDS had 60% members support.And he had to be removed once his supporters realised they had been fuckwits
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 2h2 hours ago
    @smith_writes Do what your enemy wants least is a good rule in politics.And for Labour that is to cut out the Corbyn cancer ASAP.
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    GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius 2h2 hours ago
    @smith_writes @Lad87Red Not at all.Corbyn is the Tories dream.Nobody in their right mind denies that.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Don't be hyperbolic. I have no problem with people believing people like Crosby should not receive an honour for such a service, but there are far worse examples of awards to people for far less out there, and to hold this award as somehow the epitome of how bad the system is, just undermines those who have a problem with the system as a whole. Because if someone does support the system we have, in general, then it is nothing to be concerned at. If someone does not support the system, then it may be worth being concerned at, but not as a specific example, just that it exists.
    I think the difference is between ennobling someone and this is that , at least, being an MP makes you do community service. Even Bernard Ingham was in the government. So was Coulson. But Crosby is a pure party political person.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    edited 2015 27
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!

    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall

    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The Met office has all the rainfall averages both daily, monthly and yearly for the Home Countries and for England split into broad regions dating back to variously 1931 (Daily), 1873 (regional monthly/yearly) and 1766 (Monthly/yearly for E&W)

    Well worth a look.

    The wettest December on average for E&W was 1876. None of the top 6 wettest Decembers are post WW2.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    rcs1000 said:

    Actually TSE in spite of the impression you like to give I would suggest that Reckless maintained his mind on major political issues. It was the Tory party - or at least the leadership of that party - that changed their stated views.

    Is that true? When Reckless joined the Conservative party it was much more Europhilic. Don't forget: in the 1990s, the debate - inside the highest levels of the Conservative Party - was not about in the EU or out the EU; it was in the Euro or out the Euro. People like Teddy Taylor were marginalised in a way that Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party simply are not done so today.
    Reckless wasn't involved in the Tory party in any significant way in the 1990s. At least not at any significant level. Although he was involved with the party from early to mid 2000s he wasn't elected an MP until 2010 and was the 13th most rebellious Tory MP whilst he was a member of the party. He never moved in his views on the EU and only left the party when it became clear that Cameron was in no way serious about any significant change in our relationship with the EU. Remember Carswell gave as one of his reasons for leaving the realisation that Cameron would only try and negotiate the absolute minimum of change necessary to secure a Yes vote. Something that a number of PB Tories denied when it was claimed and which has now turned out to be absolutely correct.

    It is the Tory party position under Cameron which has moved from the demand for significant change to one of slight tinkering.
    He left the party for the self serving reason that he thought - quite wrongly because he is thick - that he would lose his seat to UKIP. In the end he lost it back to the tories.
    Carswells reasons for leaving the tory party were all made up as well - he is no different to the typical LD, happy just to carp and not interested in the tricky problems of being in power. Instead he has joined a party of 'angry nativists'.

    We have negotiations and we have a referendum, allegedly what UKIP want. Yet all you can do is pathetically bleat, 'foul!'
    Reckless thought that he would lose to UKIP in a non-target seat? If he believed that was even remotely possible, it would have meant UKIP winning in 100+ seats...

    I find it far more likely either Reckless mistakenly believed he had some sort of personal vote or he was so sick of the Tories he decided to leave.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Don't be hyperbolic. I have no problem with people believing people like Crosby should not receive an honour for such a service, but there are far worse examples of awards to people for far less out there, and to hold this award as somehow the epitome of how bad the system is, just undermines those who have a problem with the system as a whole. Because if someone does support the system we have, in general, then it is nothing to be concerned at. If someone does not support the system, then it may be worth being concerned at, but not as a specific example, just that it exists.
    I think the difference is between ennobling someone and this is that , at least, being an MP makes you do community service. Even Bernard Ingham was in the government. So was Coulson. But Crosby is a pure party political person.
    Perhaps. Then again, at least he actually had to work hard for that party to get a knighthood, unlike doners who do nothing but give money and then don't put in any real work afterwards. So yes, a party favour and so hardly the best kind of appointment, but I think some way below the worst.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!

    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall

    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The Met office has all the rainfall averages both daily, monthly and yearly for the Home Countries and for England split into broad regions dating back to variously 1931 (Daily), 1873 (regional monthly/yearly) and 1766 (Monthly/yearly for E&W)

    Well worth a look.

    The wettest December on average for E&W was 1876. None of the top 6 wettest Decembers are post WW2.
    I am not sure how reliable the older records are.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    I still don't believe it, because I do not think Crosby would accept. At risk of looking very stupid when the papers come out, I prefer to believe Corbyn's been suckered by Tory trolling.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Almost as bad as enobling an alleged paedophile like Lord Janner.

    Alleged ?
    Yes. Alleged. He was never convicted. And until someone is convicted, they are innocent in the eyes of the law. Innocent until proven guilty is an important and worthwhile principle and one worth preserving, not for throwing overboard just because the allegation is of paedophilia or the person is a political opponent or whatever.

    Lots of people suffered from miscarriages of justice and had their lives ruined. It might be worth mentioning Stephen Kiszko: wrongly convicted of killing a child after sexually abusing her.

    People - some of them anyway - seem to lose their reason when it comes to allegations of paedophilia. It's precisely because it's a serious crime that we shouldn't go round behaving like hysterical Salem girls at the mere mention of the word.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    DavidL said:

    CD13 said:

    I just can't see Jezza's Ho as Foreign Secretary.

    That is a deeply misogynist statement. I don't have any time for the person I think you are talking about but really, if that is your idea of humour you need to have a think to yourself.
    Oh lord - get over yourself. In the context of Corbynolitics it was entirely appropriate and quite funny!
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Ed Balls to be unpaid Chairman of Norwich.
    ''The club's majority shareholders Delia Smith and Michael Wynn Jones said Balls' "vast economic knowledge and extensive experience with both the public and private sectors" would be a huge asset.''
    I have been out all day so appols if I am repeating this outstanding news headline.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Don't be hyperbolic. I have no problem with people believing people like Crosby should not receive an honour for such a service, but there are far worse examples of awards to people for far less out there, and to hold this award as somehow the epitome of how bad the system is, just undermines those who have a problem with the system as a whole. Because if someone does support the system we have, in general, then it is nothing to be concerned at. If someone does not support the system, then it may be worth being concerned at, but not as a specific example, just that it exists.
    I think the difference is between ennobling someone and this is that , at least, being an MP makes you do community service. Even Bernard Ingham was in the government. So was Coulson. But Crosby is a pure party political person.
    Michael Levy and Charlie Falconer?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    Ed Balls to be unpaid Chairman of Norwich.
    ''The club's majority shareholders Delia Smith and Michael Wynn Jones said Balls' "vast economic knowledge and extensive experience with both the public and private sectors" would be a huge asset.''
    I have been out all day so appols if I am repeating this outstanding news headline.

    What private sector experience, exactly, has Balls had?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    surbiton said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!

    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall

    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The Met office has all the rainfall averages both daily, monthly and yearly for the Home Countries and for England split into broad regions dating back to variously 1931 (Daily), 1873 (regional monthly/yearly) and 1766 (Monthly/yearly for E&W)

    Well worth a look.

    The wettest December on average for E&W was 1876. None of the top 6 wettest Decembers are post WW2.
    I am not sure how reliable the older records are.
    Of course not. After all they can't be so easily 'adjusted' to match expectations.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    FPT
    Wanderer said:

    I posted something very similar last night.

    As far as I can see, if Benn goes, he goes all the way down.

    One reason I'm somewhat sceptical there will be a very long knife is that Corbyn seems short of talent - Labour aren't bursting with it anyway, but to find "serious" politicians who are also sympathetic to his cause (even if not in 100% agreement with it) is tricky. Finding politicians of public stature will be even harder for him, and with the Foreign brief, and a couple of others, I think that's important if he wants his party to look like a genuine and credible government-in-waiting. I don't think the office maketh the stature - Diane Abbott would be widely publicly perceived as overpromoted if she was installed as Benn's replacement (and even should he think that's unfair on her, it ought to be a consideration that weighs on Corbyn's mind).

    I love the cautious understatement in your post. Yes, the Labour benches are not bursting with talent.

    Thing is, Corbyn's assessment may differ from ours. If he thought John McDonnell could be a credible shadow chancellor then why not Diane Abbott as shadow foreign secretary?
    Indeed.

    One of the interesting things about Corbyn is that while it is very easy to "get inside his head" in matters of policy (he isn't afraid to say what he thinks and like it or not he's dead straight - a spin doctor's nightmare - and as such is quite different to Blair or Miliband, who I still have no idea what they actually believed policy-wise, albeit for very different reasons), it is actually quite difficult to imagine what goes through his mind on matters of strategy. I lean more towards the "happy accident of timing and history" theory than that he navigated the Labour leadership election through previously unheralded tactical genius. I have no idea how seriously he sees the prospect of becoming PM, or what he is prepared to do - maybe even compromise on - in order to achieve it. His circle of close allies is small, and moreover, thin. It's not clear how much he wants to, or is prepared to, reach out to a wider group of the PLP, regardless of how much commentators think that he needs to. The insider reports that he had a close personal relationship and great personal faith in John McDonnell, so much so that he was prepared to take a lot of flak to get him appointed Shadow Chancellor, were spot on. Perhaps we shouldn't rule out similar for Abbott.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    But that isn't what is pertinent to the question at hand. What should be plotted is the daily rainfall total. Having a months worth of rain in a month isn't bad, having it in a day is.
    That data doesn't appear to be publicly available, along with the rainfall on the afore mentioned potting shed ;)
    But you see my point? I think the rainfall record in Cornwall is frankly irrelevant.
    No, the rainfall record FOR ENGLAND, which happened for occur in Cornwall.
    Well, if that rain fell in Cornwall, what is the record for England?
    You missed out a word - 'rest' as in the 'rest of England'.
    No, I didn't.
    Oh yes you did.
    LOL.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TOPPING said:

    On the LDs.

    The aim of a political party (as Jezza is now proving as the exception) is to be in power.

    For the LDs, after all kinds of batshit crazy politics they found themselves...

    ...

    ...in power.

    And dear god did they get the mother of all shellackings from their own supporters (and ofc Lab=>LD switchers) for it.

    Nick Clegg played a blinder IMO. To go from protest/NOTA party to being in government is an impossible hand and Nick did as well as he could, trying to balance his responsibilities to his voters on the one hand, and the government of which he was a part on the other.

    I'm sure those Lab=>LD switchers would have preferred the LDs to refuse to go into coalition, but that ignored the realities of the vote share. Of course what they actually wanted was for the LDs to form a coalition with Lab.

    Poor old Nick - I wonder how history will treat him. Harshly I suspect but I hope not.

    Clegg decimated the LibDems not by going into coalition but by ditching campaign promises to do so. Unnecessarily too, since no-one thinks Cameron would have made university fees a sticking point; iirc there was an anecdote from the Tory negotiators that they were more familiar with the LibDem manifesto than the LDs were. Clegg chucked it all in because he thought he'd get AV and a permanent LibDem hegemony.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883

    Crosby getting a knighthood is a disgrace.

    He deserves a Royal Dukedom as a minimum, perhaps make him Governor-General of Australia too.

    Maybe Cameron should give Andy Coulson a knighthood.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!
    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall
    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The discussion is pointless since there has been no global warming for nearly 19 years.
    But what is really more important is the divergence between reality and the computer models in that period.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    Well, it's at least original, as far as New Year's resolutions go.
    Is Sean's an example of humblebragging?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    Sean_F said:

    Crosby getting a knighthood is a disgrace.

    He deserves a Royal Dukedom as a minimum, perhaps make him Governor-General of Australia too.

    Maybe Cameron should give Andy Coulson a knighthood.
    Nah, he should ennoble Rupert Murdoch for the reaction.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    MP_SE said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Actually TSE in spite of the impression you like to give I would suggest that Reckless maintained his mind on major political issues. It was the Tory party - or at least the leadership of that party - that changed their stated views.

    Is that true? When Reckless joined the Conservative party it was much more Europhilic. Don't forget: in the 1990s, the debate - inside the highest levels of the Conservative Party - was not about in the EU or out the EU; it was in the Euro or out the Euro. People like Teddy Taylor were marginalised in a way that Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party simply are not done so today.
    Reckless wasn't involved in the Tory party in any significant way in the 1990s. At least not at any significant level. Although he was involved with the party from early to mid 2000s he wasn't elected an MP until 2010 and was the 13th most rebellious Tory MP whilst he was a member of the party. He never moved in his views on the EU and only left the party when it became clear that Cameron was in no way serious about any significant change in our relationship with the EU. Remember Carswell gave as one of his reasons for leaving the realisation that Cameron would only try and negotiate the absolute minimum of change necessary to secure a Yes vote. Something that a number of PB Tories denied when it was claimed and which has now turned out to be absolutely correct.

    It is the Tory party position under Cameron which has moved from the demand for significant change to one of slight tinkering.
    It will be fascinating to compare Cameron's proposed reforms in the run-up to the general election to the final package.
    The Vote Leave campaign has a list of 10 points where they say Cameron has backtracked.

    1: Taking back control over social and employment laws (Made 2005)
    2: A ‘complete opt-out from the Charter of Fundamental Rights’ (Made 2009)
    3: Stopping the ECJ overruling our criminal law (Made 2009)
    4: Changing EU treaties before the referendum (Made 2014)
    5: Stopping EU migrants coming to the UK without a job offer (Made 2014)
    6: Removing EU jobseekers after six months (Made 2014)
    7: Revising Working Time Directive to stop adverse effects on NHS (Made 2012)
    8: Stopping the European Parliament meeting in two places (Made 2009)
    9: Reforming the Common Agricultural Policy (Made 2015)
    10: Reforming the EU’s Structural Funds (Made 2015)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    But that isn't what is pertinent to the question at hand. What should be plotted is the daily rainfall total. Having a months worth of rain in a month isn't bad, having it in a day is.
    I suspect, though, that the country's tolerance* for a given level of rain is lower than 100 years ago so you need to factor that secular trend in your analysis.

    * By tolerance I mean increased run off due to concrete, building in risk areas, etc. I'm not referring to the fact that we have devolved into a bunch of whining jessies
    Our resilience to flooding is much poorer. 100 years ago most houses had very little to get damaged in a flood; now we have wall-to-wall carpets, TVs, fitted kitchens etc, etc. Where a quick sluice-out would have been the main job in some houses, now it's much more complex.

    Waterproof plaster in houses susceptible to flooding has to be a partial way forward. It means you don't have to chop out the polluted plaster that got wet, wait for the walls to dry, and then replaster before you move back in.
    Very true. If you look at the old houses in many of these areas prone to flooding - the Middle and lower Trent Valley is a good example - then they tended to have flagged lower floors and all the furniture was removable. The idea was that if a flood was coming you moved everything upstairs, opened your front and back doors and let the water flow through. A good flow through helped prevent the build up of sediment as well although some was inevitable.
    Rather like houses and shops down by the waterfront, in Salcombe, Kingsbridge, or Hope Cove. You assume flooding each Spring, and plan accordingly. If flooding doesn't happen, that's a bonus.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Almost as bad as enobling an alleged paedophile like Lord Janner.

    Alleged ?
    Yes. Alleged. He was never convicted. And until someone is convicted, they are innocent in the eyes of the law. Innocent until proven guilty is an important and worthwhile principle and one worth preserving, not for throwing overboard just because the allegation is of paedophilia or the person is a political opponent or whatever.

    Lots of people suffered from miscarriages of justice and had their lives ruined. It might be worth mentioning Stephen Kiszko: wrongly convicted of killing a child after sexually abusing her.

    People - some of them anyway - seem to lose their reason when it comes to allegations of paedophilia. It's precisely because it's a serious crime that we shouldn't go round behaving like hysterical Salem girls at the mere mention of the word.
    Book recommendation for you - just got round to reading Hans J. Baer's autobiography

    Enjoyable, if a little too much name-dropping (he comes across as surprising insecure)

    But the title sums up what it should mean to be a banker

    http://www.amazon.com/Its-Not-All-About-Money-ebook/dp/B005IOMPY2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1451249810&sr=1-1&keywords=hans+j+baer

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Cyclefree said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Almost as bad as enobling an alleged paedophile like Lord Janner.

    Alleged ?
    Yes. Alleged. He was never convicted. And until someone is convicted, they are innocent in the eyes of the law. Innocent until proven guilty is an important and worthwhile principle and one worth preserving, not for throwing overboard just because the allegation is of paedophilia or the person is a political opponent or whatever.

    Lots of people suffered from miscarriages of justice and had their lives ruined. It might be worth mentioning Stephen Kiszko: wrongly convicted of killing a child after sexually abusing her.

    People - some of them anyway - seem to lose their reason when it comes to allegations of paedophilia. It's precisely because it's a serious crime that we shouldn't go round behaving like hysterical Salem girls at the mere mention of the word.

    Indeed, the Child Bias. One cannot have higher rates of true positives (convictions of the real guilty party) without also raising the number of false positives (convictions of innocent people). Children - the survival of our genes/tribe/species - hit a primal part of our lizard brain, making us very risk averse, and hence irrationally willing to accept what should be unacceptable levels of false positives and to do so on lower standards of evidence.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    Well, it's at least original, as far as New Year's resolutions go.
    Is Sean's an example of humblebragging?
    In a manner of speaking perhaps. Losing one's touch with inventive invective expression is not something most are in a position to humblebrag about.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    But that isn't what is pertinent to the question at hand. What should be plotted is the daily rainfall total. Having a months worth of rain in a month isn't bad, having it in a day is.
    I suspect, though, that the country's tolerance* for a given level of rain is lower than 100 years ago so you need to factor that secular trend in your analysis.

    * By tolerance I mean increased run off due to concrete, building in risk areas, etc. I'm not referring to the fact that we have devolved into a bunch of whining jessies
    Our resilience to flooding is much poorer. 100 years ago most houses had very little to get damaged in a flood; now we have wall-to-wall carpets, TVs, fitted kitchens etc, etc. Where a quick sluice-out would have been the main job in some houses, now it's much more complex.

    Waterproof plaster in houses susceptible to flooding has to be a partial way forward. It means you don't have to chop out the polluted plaster that got wet, wait for the walls to dry, and then replaster before you move back in.
    Very true. If you look at the old houses in many of these areas prone to flooding - the Middle and lower Trent Valley is a good example - then they tended to have flagged lower floors and all the furniture was removable. The idea was that if a flood was coming you moved everything upstairs, opened your front and back doors and let the water flow through. A good flow through helped prevent the build up of sediment as well although some was inevitable.
    Rather like houses and shops down by the waterfront, in Salcombe, Kingsbridge, or Hope Cove. You assume flooding each Spring, and plan accordingly. If flooding doesn't happen, that's a bonus.
    I take it you are based in Devon.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Cyclefree said:

    Ed Balls to be unpaid Chairman of Norwich.
    ''The club's majority shareholders Delia Smith and Michael Wynn Jones said Balls' "vast economic knowledge and extensive experience with both the public and private sectors" would be a huge asset.''
    I have been out all day so appols if I am repeating this outstanding news headline.

    What private sector experience, exactly, has Balls had?
    Sending MG Rover bankrupt?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!
    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall
    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The discussion is pointless since there has been no global warming for nearly 19 years.
    But what is really more important is the divergence between reality and the computer models in that period.
    1996? Are you sure. The correct date to pick is 1998.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,998
    edited 2015 27
    DavidL said:

    Adding to my previous comment I regret to say that a lot of the posts today were pretty unpleasant and frankly no fun to read. The extremism of many of the Kippers on here is, frankly, repulsive and is destroying the site.

    I will dip in in the New Year in the hope that some sort of sanity has returned.

    Strangely enough I can't recall you ever complaining about the abuse Conservative supporters so often give out on this site.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476

    Sean_F said:

    Crosby getting a knighthood is a disgrace.

    He deserves a Royal Dukedom as a minimum, perhaps make him Governor-General of Australia too.

    Maybe Cameron should give Andy Coulson a knighthood.
    Nah, he should ennoble Rupert Murdoch for the reaction.
    And chuck an award in for Rebecca Brooks?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    Well, it's at least original, as far as New Year's resolutions go.
    Is Sean's an example of humblebragging?
    In a manner of speaking perhaps. Losing one's touch with inventive invective expression is not something most are in a position to humblebrag about.
    I was more thinking about the expressed hope of failure to avoid the pitfalls of success. :) Not a critique of SeanT - more power to his elbow - just an amused observation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    rcs1000 said:

    Actually TSE in spite of the impression you like to give I would suggest that Reckless maintained his mind on major political issues. It was the Tory party - or at least the leadership of that party - that changed their stated views.

    Is that true? When Reckless joined the Conservative party it was much more Europhilic. Don't forget: in the 1990s, the debate - inside the highest levels of the Conservative Party - was not about in the EU or out the EU; it was in the Euro or out the Euro. People like Teddy Taylor were marginalised in a way that Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party simply are not done so today.
    Reckless wasn't involved in the Tory party in any significant way in the 1990s. At least not at any significant level. Although he was involved with the party from early to mid 2000s he wasn't elected an MP until 2010 and was the 13th most rebellious Tory MP whilst he was a member of the party. He never moved in his views on the EU and only left the party when it became clear that Cameron was in no way serious about any significant change in our relationship with the EU. Remember Carswell gave as one of his reasons for leaving the realisation that Cameron would only try and negotiate the absolute minimum of change necessary to secure a Yes vote. Something that a number of PB Tories denied when it was claimed and which has now turned out to be absolutely correct.

    It is the Tory party position under Cameron which has moved from the demand for significant change to one of slight tinkering.
    He left the party for the self serving reason that he thought - quite wrongly because he is thick - that he would lose his seat to UKIP. In the end he lost it back to the tories.
    Carswells reasons for leaving the tory party were all made up as well - he is no different to the typical LD, happy just to carp and not interested in the tricky problems of being in power. Instead he has joined a party of 'angry nativists'.

    We have negotiations and we have a referendum, allegedly what UKIP want. Yet all you can do is pathetically bleat, 'foul!'
    Have you ever met anybody that disagrees with you that isn't thick?

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883
    MTimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    But that isn't what is pertinent to the question at hand. What should be plotted is the daily rainfall total. Having a months worth of rain in a month isn't bad, having it in a day is.
    I suspect, though, that the country's tolerance* for a given level of rain is lower than 100 years ago so you need to factor that secular trend in your analysis.

    * By tolerance I mean increased run off due to concrete, building in risk areas, etc. I'm not referring to the fact that we have devolved into a bunch of whining jessies
    Our resilience to flooding is much poorer. 100 years ago most houses had very little to get damaged in a flood; now we have wall-to-wall carpets, TVs, fitted kitchens etc, etc. Where a quick sluice-out would have been the main job in some houses, now it's much more complex.

    Waterproof plaster in houses susceptible to flooding has to be a partial way forward. It means you don't have to chop out the polluted plaster that got wet, wait for the walls to dry, and then replaster before you move back in.
    Very true. If you look at the old houses in many of these areas prone to flooding - the Middle and lower Trent Valley is a good example - then they tended to have flagged lower floors and all the furniture was removable. The idea was that if a flood was coming you moved everything upstairs, opened your front and back doors and let the water flow through. A good flow through helped prevent the build up of sediment as well although some was inevitable.
    Rather like houses and shops down by the waterfront, in Salcombe, Kingsbridge, or Hope Cove. You assume flooding each Spring, and plan accordingly. If flooding doesn't happen, that's a bonus.
    I take it you are based in Devon.
    Not based, but I know South Hams very well. My favourite part of the world.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!
    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall
    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The discussion is pointless since there has been no global warming for nearly 19 years.
    But what is really more important is the divergence between reality and the computer models in that period.
    1996? Are you sure. The correct date to pick is 1998.
    1998 should be ignored by all sides as it was a very high El Nino year. To pick it as a base point for flatlining temperatures is dishonest as it is not part of the normal trend. It gives an excessively high starting point. Similarly to pick it as part of a rising trend prior to 1998 is equally dishonest.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    Sean_F said:

    Crosby getting a knighthood is a disgrace.

    He deserves a Royal Dukedom as a minimum, perhaps make him Governor-General of Australia too.

    Maybe Cameron should give Andy Coulson a knighthood.
    Nah, he should ennoble Rupert Murdoch for the reaction.
    And chuck an award in for Rebecca Brooks?
    A Dame at the very least!
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569

    TOPPING said:

    On the LDs.

    The aim of a political party (as Jezza is now proving as the exception) is to be in power.

    For the LDs, after all kinds of batshit crazy politics they found themselves...

    ...

    ...in power.

    And dear god did they get the mother of all shellackings from their own supporters (and ofc Lab=>LD switchers) for it.

    Nick Clegg played a blinder IMO. To go from protest/NOTA party to being in government is an impossible hand and Nick did as well as he could, trying to balance his responsibilities to his voters on the one hand, and the government of which he was a part on the other.

    I'm sure those Lab=>LD switchers would have preferred the LDs to refuse to go into coalition, but that ignored the realities of the vote share. Of course what they actually wanted was for the LDs to form a coalition with Lab.

    Poor old Nick - I wonder how history will treat him. Harshly I suspect but I hope not.

    Clegg decimated the LibDems not by going into coalition but by ditching campaign promises to do so. Unnecessarily too, since no-one thinks Cameron would have made university fees a sticking point; iirc there was an anecdote from the Tory negotiators that they were more familiar with the LibDem manifesto than the LDs were. Clegg chucked it all in because he thought he'd get AV and a permanent LibDem hegemony.
    Agree with the first two sentences but not the last. Clegg never understood how sacrosanct the tuition fee pledge was among voters and activists.

    Voting reform so ingrained in LD DNA though, that LDs would support changes not beneficial to them. Not convinced AV would have been as LD-friendly as you claim (I voted against as it would likely be less proportional than FPTP) but PR would have been a deal-breaker with the Tories, and LDs genuinely thought Labour would get behind it as it was in the Lab manifesto. Turned out that neither LDs nor Lab thought AV was much good, and Tories firmly against.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    rcs1000 said:

    Actually TSE in spite of the impression you like to give I would suggest that Reckless maintained his mind on major political issues. It was the Tory party - or at least the leadership of that party - that changed their stated views.

    Is that true? When Reckless joined the Conservative party it was much more Europhilic. Don't forget: in the 1990s, the debate - inside the highest levels of the Conservative Party - was not about in the EU or out the EU; it was in the Euro or out the Euro. People like Teddy Taylor were marginalised in a way that Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party simply are not done so today.
    Reckless wasn't involved in the Tory party in any significant way in the 1990s. At least not at any significant level. Although he was involved with the party from early to mid 2000s he wasn't elected an MP until 2010 and was the 13th most rebellious Tory MP whilst he was a member of the party. He never moved in his views on the EU and only left the party when it became clear that Cameron was in no way serious about any significant change in our relationship with the EU. Remember Carswell gave as one of his reasons for leaving the realisation that Cameron would only try and negotiate the absolute minimum of change necessary to secure a Yes vote. Something that a number of PB Tories denied when it was claimed and which has now turned out to be absolutely correct.

    It is the Tory party position under Cameron which has moved from the demand for significant change to one of slight tinkering.
    He left the party for the self serving reason that he thought - quite wrongly because he is thick - that he would lose his seat to UKIP. In the end he lost it back to the tories.
    Carswells reasons for leaving the tory party were all made up as well - he is no different to the typical LD, happy just to carp and not interested in the tricky problems of being in power. Instead he has joined a party of 'angry nativists'.
    We have negotiations and we have a referendum, allegedly what UKIP want. Yet all you can do is pathetically bleat, 'foul!'
    Have you ever met anybody that disagrees with you that isn't thick?
    There are a lot of thick people around. They usually give themselves away by their actions. Reckless ran away in to the arms of UKIP on the basis of a vast delusion.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883
    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    He's an obnoxious little jerk, who should be viewed in the same light as one of those monkeys that starts masturbating in an effort to gain attention.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754

    Sean_F said:

    Crosby getting a knighthood is a disgrace.

    He deserves a Royal Dukedom as a minimum, perhaps make him Governor-General of Australia too.

    Maybe Cameron should give Andy Coulson a knighthood.
    Nah, he should ennoble Rupert Murdoch for the reaction.
    And chuck an award in for Rebecca Brooks?
    Well she's a redhead, and I'm very biased in favour of gingers, even if they get me into trouble
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!
    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall
    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The discussion is pointless since there has been no global warming for nearly 19 years.
    But what is really more important is the divergence between reality and the computer models in that period.
    1996? Are you sure. The correct date to pick is 1998.
    1998 should be ignored by all sides as it was a very high El Nino year. To pick it as a base point for flatlining temperatures is dishonest as it is not part of the normal trend. It gives an excessively high starting point. Similarly to pick it as part of a rising trend prior to 1998 is equally dishonest.
    It is like the Everest of global temperature data points.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Cyclefree said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    Almost as bad as enobling an alleged paedophile like Lord Janner.

    Alleged ?
    Yes. Alleged. He was never convicted. And until someone is convicted, they are innocent in the eyes of the law. Innocent until proven guilty is an important and worthwhile principle and one worth preserving, not for throwing overboard just because the allegation is of paedophilia or the person is a political opponent or whatever.

    Lots of people suffered from miscarriages of justice and had their lives ruined. It might be worth mentioning Stephen Kiszko: wrongly convicted of killing a child after sexually abusing her.

    People - some of them anyway - seem to lose their reason when it comes to allegations of paedophilia. It's precisely because it's a serious crime that we shouldn't go round behaving like hysterical Salem girls at the mere mention of the word.
    Come come, accusing people of being racist or homophobic is perfectly acceptable in some circles, no evidence is required.

    And for the record I'm not accusing you.

    Incidentally are you female? I tend to address people on here as Mr but I seem to remember you're a lady.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    PS - there is a serious point here. Since the success of Tom Knox, and, even more, since the success of S K Tremayne, I've noticed my vitriol levels decline, and it's not just because I have much less time to vent (though that is true).

    I don't quite have the anger: it's hard to be perpetually angry when you're stupidly lucky. These days I feel more guilt than anger.

    I am therefore beginning to see why so many celebs and luvvies are so stupidly, infuriatingly leftwing. It's the guilt that comes with success.

    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    I had noticed when you did your telegraph columns your insults on PB dropped a few levels.

    I guess you had to be a bit more careful in your blogs there.

    You couldn't write a blog about mewling lefty twats or a posh boy Tory twats, you had to display more elan.
    I miss writing the Telegraph blogs - I think I was OK at it (and my editor was apparently a fan) - but then the Tepegraph hired that twat from New York as digital boss, who sacked or alienated everyone, destroyed the Telegraph blogging ecosystem, and then got sacked himself when click-numbers cratered, contrary to his promises. Total calamity.

    There is a huge gap in the UK media market, for smart clever mainstream rightwing political blogging. Breitbart and CapX and the Speccie don't quite fill it, as the Telegraph did. Someone should. There is money to be made.

    I miss them too. Your high point apart from the one that saved the Yazidis, was when quite a few of my friends started sharing your "Are atheists mentally ill piece"
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569
    Tom said:

    stodge said:

    To pick up on a couple of comments to my previous FPT, the view within the LDs from minute one of the Coalition was we had to be in it for the duration not just for 90% of the Parliament. The same was true for the Conservatives.

    The predictable jibe from Threequidder about the LDs functioning as "an internal opposition" within the Coalition is part of the rewriting of history from those on the Conservative side who were never well disposed toward the Coalition but didn't have the courage to challenge Cameron directly. That view is fortunately countered by those of more sensible send pragmatic disposition within Conservative ranks.

    The initial Coalition agreement was a frail creature and nobody could foresee a full five year legislative programme. I regret some of the measures the LDs supported but as they were in the Agreement it's all down to that dirty concept of compromise.

    I am proud the Party managed to stop or water down some measures which were not part of the Agreement and I applaud the Conservatives who voted for LD measures with which they probably disagreed but which were part of the Agreement. Again, that's compromise.

    I think there was a window of opportunity in 2012-13 to renegotiate the Coalition and its modus operandi. That might have ended the Agreement or strengthened it but to simply jog on with what was effectively a botched rushed arrangement organised by tired people was and is unsatisfactory.

    As an LD, I regret the 2015 GE outcome but I don't regret for a nanosecond being in Government and having the power to get things done.

    I think all of that is fair and as I said on pt I think the lib Dems did the right thing for the country. I assume there is an analysis of the lib/con marginals? Was it left libs leaving or lib con switchers that did for you? I think if in the early stages it had been done as more business than pleasure it might have been a bit different. Interesting from this and previous thread is that it is the cons who like clegg most - which may not be a good thing for a lib dem leader!
    I agree a good post from Stodge.

    My understanding is that it was lots of everything that did for the LDs - undecideds breaking firmly against, lots of LD-> Con switchers worried about a hung parliament. The left wing were long gone by 2015 and wouldn't even listen to the party while Clegg was leader or in coalition withTories.

    And I have to echo a couple of comments that the tone has been less pleasant in the comments the last few times I've dipped in - it all seems a little more personal than things once did. i don't go through the comments as much as I used to - maybe I'm too old and grumpy myself!
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    rcs1000 said:

    Actually TSE in spite of the impression you like to give I would suggest that Reckless maintained his mind on major political issues. It was the Tory party - or at least the leadership of that party - that changed their stated views.

    Is that true? When Reckless joined the Conservative party it was much more Europhilic. Don't forget: in the 1990s, the debate - inside the highest levels of the Conservative Party - was not about in the EU or out the EU; it was in the Euro or out the Euro. People like Teddy Taylor were marginalised in a way that Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party simply are not done so today.
    Reckless wasn't involved in the Tory party in any significant way in the 1990s. At least not at any significant level. Although he was involved with the party from early to mid 2000s he wasn't elected an MP until 2010 and was the 13th most rebellious Tory MP whilst he was a member of the party. He never moved in his views on the EU and only left the party when it became clear that Cameron was in no way serious about any significant change in our relationship with the EU. Remember Carswell gave as one of his reasons for leaving the realisation that Cameron would only try and negotiate the absolute minimum of change necessary to secure a Yes vote. Something that a number of PB Tories denied when it was claimed and which has now turned out to be absolutely correct.

    It is the Tory party position under Cameron which has moved from the demand for significant change to one of slight tinkering.
    He left the party for the self serving reason that he thought - quite wrongly because he is thick - that he would lose his seat to UKIP. In the end he lost it back to the tories.
    Carswells reasons for leaving the tory party were all made up as well - he is no different to the typical LD, happy just to carp and not interested in the tricky problems of being in power. Instead he has joined a party of 'angry nativists'.
    We have negotiations and we have a referendum, allegedly what UKIP want. Yet all you can do is pathetically bleat, 'foul!'
    Have you ever met anybody that disagrees with you that isn't thick?
    There are a lot of thick people around. They usually give themselves away by their actions. Reckless ran away in to the arms of UKIP on the basis of a vast delusion.
    So he's deluded and thick, but that didn't answer my question.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!
    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall
    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The discussion is pointless since there has been no global warming for nearly 19 years.
    But what is really more important is the divergence between reality and the computer models in that period.
    1996? Are you sure. The correct date to pick is 1998.
    1998 should be ignored by all sides as it was a very high El Nino year. To pick it as a base point for flatlining temperatures is dishonest as it is not part of the normal trend. It gives an excessively high starting point. Similarly to pick it as part of a rising trend prior to 1998 is equally dishonest.
    It is like the Everest of global temperature data points.
    Indeed. But utterly useless for trying to calculate trends.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 27
    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    It doesn't surprise me. Not because the guy is a hypocritical idiot, but go and read up about the people behind the original campaign in SA, they are exactly of this mindset. Statue removed, now it is on to other things that are offensive and racist and imperialist and waaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....They are still causing trouble in SA, despite the uni giving into them.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/23/ugly-true-story-rhodesmustfall-oxford-universitys-answer-blacklivesmatter/

    I just hope that Oxford see sense and don't give in, because it will just be the start. And of course the BBC, Guardian, C4 are giving this guy a free and supportive platform by running a story a day about what was a very very limited protest.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    It would be more bearable if people like him weren't taken seriously at least. We've thankfully reached a point when admitted racists for instance are practically figures of fun for being such cretins, but guys like that can occasionally be supported by liberal, intelligent people I'd otherwise like to be associated with. Oh well.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Yo,Ratty back!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,998
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn for PM ‏@Corbyn4nextPM 21h21 hours ago
    Lynton Crosby (Tory election strategist)is to be given knighthood for a contribution to public services,

    That is beneath contempt. The whole honours system was disreputable anyway - now its a private fiefdom owned by the Tory party.
    lol. Because, of course, new Labour never gamed the honours system, by ennobling donors, or anything like that.

    The problem for standard British lefties like you is not that you are all grotesque hypocrites, we knew that already, it's that, since your defeat last year, you have been revealed as mewling, juvenile, silly, self-pitying, laughable, toy-smashing, nappy-soiling halfwits, as well.
    Have you taken a vow to be nice to people ? You were not like this before. "juvenile, laughable"... is hardly an insult. You should try to do better.

    I've been mellowed by immense personal success.
    PS - there is a serious point here. Since the success of Tom Knox, and, even more, since the success of S K Tremayne, I've noticed my vitriol levels decline, and it's not just because I have much less time to vent (though that is true).

    I don't quite have the anger: it's hard to be perpetually angry when you're stupidly lucky. These days I feel more guilt than anger.

    I am therefore beginning to see why so many celebs and luvvies are so stupidly, infuriatingly leftwing. It's the guilt that comes with success.

    Hopefully I will soon be a total failure again, and can go back to being properly nasty.
    I had noticed when you did your telegraph columns your insults on PB dropped a few levels.

    I guess you had to be a bit more careful in your blogs there.

    You couldn't write a blog about mewling lefty twats or a posh boy Tory twats, you had to display more elan.
    I miss writing the Telegraph blogs - I think I was OK at it (and my editor was apparently a fan) - but then the Tepegraph hired that twat from New York as digital boss, who sacked or alienated everyone, destroyed the Telegraph blogging ecosystem, and then got sacked himself when click-numbers cratered, contrary to his promises. Total calamity.

    There is a huge gap in the UK media market, for smart clever mainstream rightwing political blogging. Breitbart and CapX and the Speccie don't quite fill it, as the Telegraph did. Someone should. There is money to be made.

    The Telegraph blogging system was a great read.

    But some 'managers' feel the need to change things because they think it justifies their existence.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited 2015 27
    So Remain will win.. Kippers and leavers on here cannot resist slagging off Dave.. and so it will be come the referendum.. Dave will take the flak and leave will lose.. as it ought to be.. Leave is ludicrous once you give it serious thought...
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    Isn't that so, it's important we respect and protect it. We're privileged to have freedom of speech, worship and sexuality, I just wish our guests would respect that as much as we do. Most do but some are a bloody nuisance.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    It doesn't surprise me. Not because the guy is a hypocritical idiot, but go and read up about the people behind the original campaign in SA, they are exactly of this mindset. Statue removed, now it is on to other things that are offensive and racist and imperialist and waaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....They are still causing trouble in SA, despite the uni giving into them.

    I just hope that Oxford see sense and don't give in, because it will just be the start.
    Moreover, the inevitable logic behind this "erasure" of unacceptable historic figures and opinions leads, quite directly, and for example, to the prohibition of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad, as any number of cruelties can be ascribed to the Muslim invasions of Europe and north Africa and various misogynistic/antiSemitic edicts in the Koran, hadiths, etc

    The Left is devouring itself. As we see with the way Corbynites have turned on Blairites, the liberal upper middle classes think they are immune from this Cultural Revolution, but they are not. The students will come for their tutors, in the end, and all they hold dear.
    Like Saturn, the Revolution devours its own children.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    edited 2015 27
    One thing is certain.

    If Leave sounds hysterical / wound up / starts talking at length about a load of things nobody has heard of / nobody is interested in - then Leave will lose very badly indeed.

    To have any chance at all of winning it's probably essential that UKIP is as invisible as possible.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 27
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    It doesn't surprise me. Not because the guy is a hypocritical idiot, but go and read up about the people behind the original campaign in SA, they are exactly of this mindset. Statue removed, now it is on to other things that are offensive and racist and imperialist and waaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....They are still causing trouble in SA, despite the uni giving into them.

    I just hope that Oxford see sense and don't give in, because it will just be the start.
    Moreover, the inevitable logic behind this "erasure" of unacceptable historic figures and opinions leads, quite directly, and for example, to the prohibition of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad, as any number of cruelties can be ascribed to the Muslim invasions of Europe and north Africa and various misogynistic/antiSemitic edicts in the Koran, hadiths, etc

    The Left is devouring itself. As we see with the way Corbynites have turned on Blairites, the liberal upper middle classes think they are immune from this Cultural Revolution, but they are not. The students will come for their tutors, in the end, and all they hold dear.
    The morons pushing this and supporting them don't seem to have worked this out. Mohammad wasn't afraid of doing plenty of things that aren't acceptable today, but I know what side of the debate they would be on if somebody suggested that they ban all academic courses teaching anything to do with Mohammad or any societies that worship him....

    Unfortunately, if we take the history of slavery as an indicator, it will be taught all all the white man disgracefully scooping up the poor black man from his home country and sending him half way around to the world to work for nothing.

    When we know the real truth was various tribes in Africa were more than happy to profit from the slavery trade and were very busy enslaving other Africans and selling them to the white man.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,998
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    He's an obnoxious little jerk, who should be viewed in the same light as one of those monkeys that starts masturbating in an effort to gain attention.
    Its probably quite a good career move.

    He's guaranteeing himself various positions with quangos, 'thinktanks', leftist politicians and the Guardian for the rest of his life.
  • TomTom Posts: 273
    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Where did your grandfather come from?

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    It's very nice to hear that, because so often, one hears this country being slagged off.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Where did your grandfather come from?

    Pakistan
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Where did your grandfather come from?

    Pakistan
    Thanks, it's wonderful he was grateful for and took advantage of the opportunities he had.

    Under current immigration policy would he be eligible to come here?

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    Do you have a moving average on that chart?
    The gradient of the trend line is 0.001!
    Eskdalemuir weather station has a gradient of 0.0225 on it's monthly rainfall
    Of note is that these figures obviously don't have this December in them yet.
    The discussion is pointless since there has been no global warming for nearly 19 years.
    But what is really more important is the divergence between reality and the computer models in that period.
    1996? Are you sure. The correct date to pick is 1998.
    1998 should be ignored by all sides as it was a very high El Nino year. To pick it as a base point for flatlining temperatures is dishonest as it is not part of the normal trend. It gives an excessively high starting point. Similarly to pick it as part of a rising trend prior to 1998 is equally dishonest.
    It is like the Everest of global temperature data points.
    Indeed. But utterly useless for trying to calculate trends.
    Yes it is such an obvious outlier that I get a bit eye-rolley when people invariably use it as a reference point.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    The Red Star operating system makes it very hard for anyone to tamper with it. If a user makes any changes to core functions, like trying to disable its antivirus checker or firewall, the computer will display an error message or reboot itself.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/27/north-koreas-computer-operating-system-revealed-by-researchers

    No different to Windows then ;-)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    It doesn't surprise me. Not because the guy is a hypocritical idiot, but go and read up about the people behind the original campaign in SA, they are exactly of this mindset. Statue removed, now it is on to other things that are offensive and racist and imperialist and waaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....They are still causing trouble in SA, despite the uni giving into them.

    I just hope that Oxford see sense and don't give in, because it will just be the start.
    Moreover, the inevitable logic behind this "erasure" of unacceptable historic figures and opinions leads, quite directly, and for example, to the prohibition of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad, as any number of cruelties can be ascribed to the Muslim invasions of Europe and north Africa and various misogynistic/antiSemitic edicts in the Koran, hadiths, etc

    The Left is devouring itself. As we see with the way Corbynites have turned on Blairites, the liberal upper middle classes think they are immune from this Cultural Revolution, but they are not. The students will come for their tutors, in the end, and all they hold dear.
    The morons pushing this and supporting them don't seem to have worked this out. Mohammad wasn't afraid of doing plenty of things that aren't acceptable today, but I know what side of the debate they would be on if somebody suggested that they ban all academic courses teaching anything to do with Mohammad or any societies that worship him....

    Unfortunately, if we take the history of slavery as an indicator, it will be taught all all the white man disgracefully scooping up the poor black man from his home country and sending him half way around to the world to work for nothing.

    When we know the real truth was various tribes in Africa were more than happy to profit from the slavery trade and were very busy enslaving other Africans and selling them to the white man.
    Slavery has been universal. Members of all races have been perpetrators and victims (sometimes both).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    It's very nice to hear that, because so often, one hears this country being slagged off.
    You'll never hear me slagging this country off.

    There's nothing I'd change about this country, it has given me so many fantastic opportunities. A superb education and superb job opportunities for starters.

    I know that if I go for any job, my race/religion isn't going to be a bar to me getting a job.

    Not bad for a country that produced Cecil Rhodes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,130

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    I am not saying at all this was due to global warming (in fact, my previous posts on this on an earlier thread will show how much I dislike global warming being ascribed to every major weather event), just that the rainfall levels are at the very high end of the distribution of rainfall levels. I'd like the rainfall levels in that particular area as it will show just how much of an outlier it is or is not. It isn't as if Cornwall and Yorkshire are the same place.

    I just knocked this up for the monthly rainfall data from Bradford, the nearest Metoffice collection centre that has been open since 1908, the graph appears broadly the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    http://i.imgur.com/afUZEGX.jpg
    But that isn't what is pertinent to the question at hand. What should be plotted is the daily rainfall total. Having a months worth of rain in a month isn't bad, having it in a day is.
    I suspect, though, that the country's tolerance* for a given level of rain is lower than 100 years ago so you need to factor that secular trend in your analysis.

    * By tolerance I mean increased run off due to concrete, building in risk areas, etc. I'm not referring to the fact that we have devolved into a bunch of whining jessies
    Our resilience to flooding is much poorer. 100 years ago most houses had very little to get damaged in a flood; now we have wall-to-wall carpets, TVs, fitted kitchens etc, etc. Where a quick sluice-out would have been the main job in some houses, now it's much more complex.

    Waterproof plaster in houses susceptible to flooding has to be a partial way forward. It means you don't have to chop out the polluted plaster that got wet, wait for the walls to dry, and then replaster before you move back in.
    Very true. If you look at the old houses in many of these areas prone to flooding - the Middle and lower Trent Valley is a good example - then they tended to have flagged lower floors and all the furniture was removable. The idea was that if a flood was coming you moved everything upstairs, opened your front and back doors and let the water flow through. A good flow through helped prevent the build up of sediment as well although some was inevitable.
    No electricity in the old days either. Or diesel/petrol pollution. Not sure about the manure, equine or human - but not so many people in those days (though I wouldn't want to be flooded by the Thames under Chelsea from c. 1800 on).

  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Just think about the lack of opportunity to write threads on AV.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    edited 2015 27
    Tom said:



    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign.

    But as the report on one of the founders shows (if it is an accurate report), the campaign was set up and led by complete morons with inconsistent, nasty and idiotic logic, and yet it might well succeed. Obviously we cannot ban people from being stupid, but it's sad they get to play the socially just heroes while doing so, which will have been conceded to be an accurate belief on their part if it is successful.

    So unfortunately I fear counter-outrage does need to be marshalled on such occasions, as to not do so will just fuel the next bout of outrage from emboldened campaigners.
  • TomTom Posts: 273
    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Where did your grandfather come from?

    Presuambly Karachi?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Where did your grandfather come from?

    Pakistan
    Thanks, it's wonderful he was grateful for and took advantage of the opportunities he had.

    Under current immigration policy would he be eligible to come here?

    Yes, the NHS is always hiring Doctors from Pakistan
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754
    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Where did your grandfather come from?

    Presuambly Karachi?
    Well he was born in Karachi, but grew up in Lahore and Sialkot
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Where did your grandfather come from?

    Presuambly Karachi?
    Well yes he's told me that now but just because he mentioned Karachi it would be wrong to assume his grandfather came from there. I could name plenty of places where your life would have been worse than the UK. I hear Syria's not too popular right now.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,754

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Just think about the lack of opportunity to write threads on AV.
    The best thing this country has given me is the opportunity for awesome fashion (and even better music)
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492


    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.

    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.



    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.

    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.

    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.

    Where did your grandfather come from?



    Pakistan

    Thanks, it's wonderful he was grateful for and took advantage of the opportunities he had.

    Under current immigration policy would he be eligible to come here?



    Yes, the NHS is always hiring Doctors from Pakistan

    And so we should, I'm a great believer in a level playing field when it comes to immigration, I appreciate not everybody agrees.

  • TomTom Posts: 273
    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

    But as kle says downthread, we now need sensible people - like us pb-ers, left and right! - to start Giving a Shit, because freedom of speech and liberalism in general is now being seriously eroded. Oxford Uni should have told this narcissistic little prick that he was welcome to his vivid opinions, and then they should have told him to go jump. But they were too scared.

    Why? It should worry us. Arguably the greatest university in the world takes a slapping from some dipstick. Enough.

    Aux armes PBers! Sean T leading a human chain to defend Cecil Rhodes posthumous right to offend! Short of that one would hope that Oriel's review is a delaying tactic and they'll put up a little plaque below the statue saying what a horrid man Cecil was and leave it at that.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

    But as kle says downthread, we now need sensible people - like us pb-ers, left and right! - to start Giving a Shit, because freedom of speech and liberalism in general is now being seriously eroded. Oxford Uni should have told this narcissistic little prick that he was welcome to his vivid opinions, and then they should have told him to go jump. But they were too scared.

    Why? It should worry us. Arguably the greatest university in the world takes a slapping from some dipstick. Enough.

    Freedom of speech on pb is arguable, by all means slag off kippers, Corbyn, Reckless etc but please don't abuse Dave in any way, you'll be accused of ruining the Leave campaign.

  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    Worraknob.

    Ntokozo Qwabe, co-founder of Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford, says France has committed acts of terror and refused to concede that Isis is worse than the French state.
    It's a remarkable account of his utter dickishness, if accurate, although I particularly like his rant about 'hastagism' given the very nature of the RhodesMustFall campaign.

    Also, why do so many otherwise intelligent people seem to think that if western countries do anything (or don't do anything) it is imperialism? Or colonialism? (neo-colonialism, if they really stretch their thinking muscles). Seriously, even just making statements about other countries is called imperialist and colonialists by idiots like this guy or President Kirchner.

    He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's just a tool.

    Honestly some people would rather play the victim than acknowledge that living in this country/The West in general is brilliant for non white people, we're not living under Jim Crow.
    It's great for everyone, White and non-White. Not perfect, but compared to most of the world, at most points of its history, it's great. Those of us who live here are the privileged minority of mankind.
    I always what my Grandfather told me about about this country, it is remarkably rewarding to anyone who puts in the efforts.

    He pointed out in the space of a few years, he went from someone who was nominally under the Dominion of the UK to being a respected member of the community in the UK. Possibly even more respected than a lot of the natives in the UK.

    I know my life would be a damn sight worse if I had been born and grew up in Karachi and not the UK.
    Just think about the lack of opportunity to write threads on AV.
    The best thing this country has given me is the opportunity for awesome fashion (and even better music)
    To misquote the old phrase.
    I may dislike your fashion sense.
    But I will defend to the death your right to make sartorial faux pas.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    edited 2015 27

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

    But as kle says downthread, we now need sensible people - like us pb-ers, left and right! - to start Giving a Shit, because freedom of speech and liberalism in general is now being seriously eroded. Oxford Uni should have told this narcissistic little prick that he was welcome to his vivid opinions, and then they should have told him to go jump. But they were too scared.

    Why? It should worry us. Arguably the greatest university in the world takes a slapping from some dipstick. Enough.

    Freedom of speech on pb is arguable, by all means slag off kippers, Corbyn, Reckless etc but please don't abuse Dave in any way, you'll be accused of ruining the Leave campaign.

    You aren't prevented from abusing him though (except possibly in profane terms). You just get more pushback because the Cameron supporters are in resurgence following the GE. Getting pushback from one's opinions is not a free speech issue, even getting shouted down for them is not either (although it is rude and unhelpful).
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    It doesn't surprise me. Not because the guy is a hypocritical idiot, but go and read up about the people behind the original campaign in SA, they are exactly of this mindset. Statue removed, now it is on to other things that are offensive and racist and imperialist and waaahhhhhhhhhhhhh....They are still causing trouble in SA, despite the uni giving into them.

    I just hope that Oxford see sense and don't give in, because it will just be the start.
    Moreover, the inevitable logic behind this "erasure" of unacceptable historic figures and opinions leads, quite directly, and for example, to the prohibition of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad, as any number of cruelties can be ascribed to the Muslim invasions of Europe and north Africa and various misogynistic/antiSemitic edicts in the Koran, hadiths, etc

    The Left is devouring itself. As we see with the way Corbynites have turned on Blairites, the liberal upper middle classes think they are immune from this Cultural Revolution, but they are not. The students will come for their tutors, in the end, and all they hold dear.
    The morons pushing this and supporting them don't seem to have worked this out. Mohammad wasn't afraid of doing plenty of things that aren't acceptable today, but I know what side of the debate they would be on if somebody suggested that they ban all academic courses teaching anything to do with Mohammad or any societies that worship him....

    Unfortunately, if we take the history of slavery as an indicator, it will be taught all all the white man disgracefully scooping up the poor black man from his home country and sending him half way around to the world to work for nothing.

    When we know the real truth was various tribes in Africa were more than happy to profit from the slavery trade and were very busy enslaving other Africans and selling them to the white man.
    Slavery has been universal. Members of all races have been perpetrators and victims (sometimes both).
    Yes, I remember watching the imbecility of "Roots", which portrayed white men running into the African bush with huge nets, as if to catch human butterflies.

    The reality was they merely had to pull up at a quayside, where their hellish cargo was manacled and waiting, docilely, already enslaved by their own kith and kin...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

    But as kle says downthread, we now need sensible people - like us pb-ers, left and right! - to start Giving a Shit, because freedom of speech and liberalism in general is now being seriously eroded. Oxford Uni should have told this narcissistic little prick that he was welcome to his vivid opinions, and then they should have told him to go jump. But they were too scared.

    Why? It should worry us. Arguably the greatest university in the world takes a slapping from some dipstick. Enough.

    Aux armes PBers! Sean T leading a human chain to defend Cecil Rhodes posthumous right to offend! Short of that one would hope that Oriel's review is a delaying tactic and they'll put up a little plaque below the statue saying what a horrid man Cecil was and leave it at that.
    We had some great suggestions the other week about a blanket statement they could put on all plaques and buildings to avoid this trouble in future - something like 'A lot of people in the past were arseholes or racists, or both'.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641
    Margaret Thatcher questioning ever-closer Union in 1988:

    Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
    - The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Margaret Thatcher questioning ever-closer Union in 1988:

    Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
    - The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)

    They won't like that Mr Sunil.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    RodCrosby said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    I may have missed this being mentioned before, but is this for real?!

    Oxford student behind Cecil Rhodes campaign wants French flag banned on campuses
    The Tricolour is a “violent” symbol, comparable to the Nazi swastika, says Oxford University student activist


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12070736/Oxford-student-behind-Cecil-Rhodes-campaign-wants-French-flag-banned-on-campuses.html

    It doesn't surprise me. Not because the guy is a hypocritical idiot, but go and read up about the people behind the original campaign in SA, they are exactly of this mindset. Statue removed, now it is on to other things that are offensive and racist and imperialist and waaahhhhhhhhhhhhh....They are still causing trouble in SA, despite the uni giving into them.

    I just hope that Oxford see sense and don't give in, because it will just be the start.
    Moreover, the inevitable logic behind this "erasure" of unacceptable historic figures and opinions leads, quite directly, and for example, to the prohibition of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad, as any number of cruelties can be ascribed to the Muslim invasions of Europe and north Africa and various misogynistic/antiSemitic edicts in the Koran, hadiths, etc

    The Left is devouring itself. As we see with the way Corbynites have turned on Blairites, the liberal upper middle classes think they are immune from this Cultural Revolution, but they are not. The students will come for their tutors, in the end, and all they hold dear.

    When we know the real truth was various tribes in Africa were more than happy to profit from the slavery trade and were very busy enslaving other Africans and selling them to the white man.
    Slavery has been universal. Members of all races have been perpetrators and victims (sometimes both).
    Yes, I remember watching the imbecility of "Roots", which portrayed white men running into the African bush with huge nets, as if to catch human butterflies.

    The reality was they merely had to pull up at a quayside, where their hellish cargo was manacled and waiting, docilely, already enslaved by their own kith and kin...
    If I recall correctly until the late 19th century and the prevalence in particular of malarial prophylactics, mass travel inland for such a purpose would have been most unwise for Europeans?
  • TomTom Posts: 273
    kle4 said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

    But as kle says downthread, we now need sensible people - like us pb-ers, left and right! - to start Giving a Shit, because freedom of speech and liberalism in general is now being seriously eroded. Oxford Uni should have told this narcissistic little prick that he was welcome to his vivid opinions, and then they should have told him to go jump. But they were too scared.

    Why? It should worry us. Arguably the greatest university in the world takes a slapping from some dipstick. Enough.

    Aux armes PBers! Sean T leading a human chain to defend Cecil Rhodes posthumous right to offend! Short of that one would hope that Oriel's review is a delaying tactic and they'll put up a little plaque below the statue saying what a horrid man Cecil was and leave it at that.
    We had some great suggestions the other week about a blanket statement they could put on all plaques and buildings to avoid this trouble in future - something like 'A lot of people in the past were arseholes or racists, or both'.
    In this case they should say that the statue is to honor Rhodes' alleged homosexuality and that they should check their privilege.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    kle4 said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

    But as kle says downthread, we now need sensible people - like us pb-ers, left and right! - to start Giving a Shit, because freedom of speech and liberalism in general is now being seriously eroded. Oxford Uni should have told this narcissistic little prick that he was welcome to his vivid opinions, and then they should have told him to go jump. But they were too scared.

    Why? It should worry us. Arguably the greatest university in the world takes a slapping from some dipstick. Enough.

    Aux armes PBers! Sean T leading a human chain to defend Cecil Rhodes posthumous right to offend! Short of that one would hope that Oriel's review is a delaying tactic and they'll put up a little plaque below the statue saying what a horrid man Cecil was and leave it at that.
    We had some great suggestions the other week about a blanket statement they could put on all plaques and buildings to avoid this trouble in future - something like 'A lot of people in the past were arseholes or racists, or both'.
    To think that in the future we'll be replacing statues of Rhodes with one of Sir Lynton Crosby.


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    kle4 said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    SeanT said:

    Tom said:

    No issue with the campaign in South Africa. If Britain had been ruled by a black minority Government and was still in a transition to a proper democracy i'm sure there'd be campaigns against statutes of people instrumental in establishing the system.

    As for Oxford they are perfectly entitled to campaign. I think the statute should be left be. There is clearly a symbiotic relationship between people who want publicity and people who want to be outraged and thankfully the Daily Telegraph is there to bring them together.

    Don't be a fool. This has nothing to do with "horrible Tory papers". It's the direct influence of social media on timorous "liberal" institutions. Facebook and Twitter, that's all you need, nowadays. For good or bad.
    Students have had dumb arsed views for years - they are now amplified. Both by social media and newspaper wesbites - Telegraph and the Guardian respectively being clickbait central. I mentioned the Telegraph because that was what the outraged link was to and they have several articles on a largely irrelevant topic. This happened in Camden some years ago which has a block of flats called Cecil Rhodes house. The Council let the residents vote on whether they wanted the name changed, they voted no, end of story. Couldn't give a shit about Oxford colleges really.

    But as kle says downthread, we now need sensible people - like us pb-ers, left and right! - to start Giving a Shit, because freedom of speech and liberalism in general is now being seriously eroded. Oxford Uni should have told this narcissistic little prick that he was welcome to his vivid opinions, and then they should have told him to go jump. But they were too scared.

    Why? It should worry us. Arguably the greatest university in the world takes a slapping from some dipstick. Enough.

    Aux armes PBers! Sean T leading a human chain to defend Cecil Rhodes posthumous right to offend! Short of that one would hope that Oriel's review is a delaying tactic and they'll put up a little plaque below the statue saying what a horrid man Cecil was and leave it at that.
    We had some great suggestions the other week about a blanket statement they could put on all plaques and buildings to avoid this trouble in future - something like 'A lot of people in the past were arseholes or racists, or both'.
    To think that in the future we'll be replacing statues of Rhodes with one of Sir Lynton Crosby.


    Such will be life in the 1000 year Tory Empire. I just hope they don't go full Roman and start declaring past and current Tory leaders as Gods. Some Thatcher fanatics are part way there.
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