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  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited 2015 14
    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.

    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.

    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.

    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    rcs1000 said:

    runnymede said:

    'It is also how to stop someone being bullied, cajoled or miss-informed by their community into accepting a solution that is unacceptable to them or which treats the unfairly or contrary to accepted norms, such as sex discrimination'

    But that is more or less the point of these 'courts' isn't it? Why would they exist except to try to impose another set of values than those which English or Scottish law enshrine?

    There are a great many extra-judicial courts in existence in the UK (the vast majority of which are non-religious in nature), where people contractually agree that arbitration will be handled, and that such arbitration will be be binding.

    If you gamble, the T&Cs of your contract with your bookmaker - when you open your account - will require you to renounce all ability to use the UK legal system to pursue claims. Instead, you need to use IBAS. (Or whatever it's called.)

    The Beth Din and Sharia courts are similar. They have no juristiction over people who do not sign their rights over to them. (And if you are happy to accept binding arbitration of IBAS or a Beth Din or a Sharia court, surely that's your concern.)

    More fundamentally, there are two separate issues here:

    1. Are people being pressured into accepting the jurisdiction of these institutions?

    2. Is there anything specifically about religious "courts" that makes them more onerous than civil ones?
    You are, with great respect, missing the point.

    Arbitration has been available for civil commercial contracts e.g. for an English company entering into a building contract with an overseas firm where both parties, advised by lawyers, decide how disputes arising out their contract are settled. Those clauses are themselves justiciable by the courts and there is much law on arbitration, on having a dispute determined in accordance with the substantive law of country X but according to the procedural rules of country Y, together with conflict of laws cases. In such cases, the civil courts can ultimately intervene. The authority of the judicial and legal authorities of the country are not ousted or bypassed.

    Sharia courts are very different. These are "courts" recognised by no authority, inhabited by people who claim to be judges but who have no recognised legal training, who may not have any religious training or authority, which seek to oust totally the jurisdiction of the authorities (legal/judicial and policing) over matters such as family law and, in some cases, criminal law (particularly in relation to domestic violence, including rape) on the basis of religious injunction.

    We do not live in a theocracy in this country and we should not accept British citizens in some communities being required (whether through moral, religious or cultural pressure) to live in a theocracy either.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    watford30 said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.

    It's almost as if Scottish Labour played a bluff when it was blindingly obvious to everyone that the bluff would be called.
    If the Forth Road Bridge is such a Labour issue why did the SNP remove the toll?
    Parliament voted 120 - 0 to end bridge tolls on all Scottish Bridges. It was a sound and prudent move with near universal support (even the Greens only abstained).
    Hardly a 'sound and prudent move' if the resulting fall in revenues has resulted in maintenance cuts, and a failure in the upkeep of critical infrastructure.
    The money was available for any and all maintenance required. FETA chose not to spend it. Indeed they had reserves of their own if required without needing to get money from the Scottish Government.

    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.
    "The money was available for any and all maintenance required."

    Source please, because it's fairly clear it was not: the maintenance was made to fit the budget, not vice versa.
    You've even linked these reports yourself, check back your own posts.

    FETA had the money in its reserves if needed.
    FETA cancelled the proposal to do work in the general area (but not according to it's Liberal councillor chairman that exact area).
    FETA could have asked and would have gotten the money if required.

    FETA isn't an SNP puppet, it was run by three councils, none of which the SNP controlled. If there was a need for work and that work was not done AND there was no public outcry, then that is FETA's responsibily.

    As it stands, there is still no indication of any demands for work which was not done.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    Yet the bridge is closed and remains closed for the longest time in it's history - all on the SNP's watch - despite repeated warnings from engineers that faults needed fixed.

    SNP - can't be trusted with critical infrastructure.

  • Scott_P said:

    @BuzzFeedUKPol: It doesn't truly feel like Christmas until Jeremy Corbyn releases his Christmas card. Here it is. https://t.co/pLS4V06PYg

    I genuinely like that card. It's something I'd see myself sending, If I could ever get into the whole Christmas gig.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,276

    The Tories are much better off leaving Osborne in No 11

    Pains me to say it but he is either a genius or very lucky, more likely both

    He is capable, astute and knows his brief. He has been a political chancellor rather than one tied to his econometrics text book, as his embrace of austerity illustrated.

    He is seen as the brains behind the operation, whether rightly or wrongly (there's your luck), perhaps even a geek.

    He has been excellent by all these measures.

    But or perhaps because of this, Prime Minister material he ain't.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    watford30 said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.

    It's almost as if Scottish Labour played a bluff when it was blindingly obvious to everyone that the bluff would be called.
    If the Forth Road Bridge is such a Labour issue why did the SNP remove the toll?
    Parliament voted 120 - 0 to end bridge tolls on all Scottish Bridges. It was a sound and prudent move with near universal support (even the Greens only abstained).
    Hardly a 'sound and prudent move' if the resulting fall in revenues has resulted in maintenance cuts, and a failure in the upkeep of critical infrastructure.
    The money was available for any and all maintenance required. FETA chose not to spend it. Indeed they had reserves of their own if required without needing to get money from the Scottish Government.

    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.
    "The money was available for any and all maintenance required."

    Source please, because it's fairly clear it was not: the maintenance was made to fit the budget, not vice versa.
    You've even linked these reports yourself, check back your own posts.

    FETA had the money in its reserves if needed.
    FETA cancelled the proposal to do work in the general area (but not according to it's Liberal councillor chairman that exact area).
    FETA could have asked and would have gotten the money if required.

    FETA isn't an SNP puppet, it was run by three councils, none of which the SNP controlled. If there was a need for work and that work was not done AND there was no public outcry, then that is FETA's responsibily.

    As it stands, there is still no indication of any demands for work which was not done.
    Dearie dearie me - the lack of responsibility is utterly pathetic.

    Sounds like the SNP aren't up to it - perhaps they should abdicate and call an election.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    It was photoshopped?

    @paulwaugh: .@chrisshipitv has found orig bikes-in-snow photo on which Jez Xmas card is based. Naturally, he added the red light
    https://t.co/Uj1IXGYwTo
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    The ECHR decision on sharia law being incompatible with the Convention was taken in 2001 and upheld in 2003.

    The report can be found here - http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Annual_report_2003_ENG.pdf.

    The decision stated that a "sharia-based regime was incompatible with the Convention, in particular, as regards the rules of criminal law and procedure, the place given to women in the legal order and its interference in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    Dair said:

    You've even linked these reports yourself, check back your own posts.

    FETA had the money in its reserves if needed.
    FETA cancelled the proposal to do work in the general area (but not according to it's Liberal councillor chairman that exact area).
    FETA could have asked and would have gotten the money if required.

    FETA isn't an SNP puppet, it was run by three councils, none of which the SNP controlled. If there was a need for work and that work was not done AND there was no public outcry, then that is FETA's responsibily.

    As it stands, there is still no indication of any demands for work which was not done.

    Yes, I read my own posts and the links within. It's odd then that we come to such radically different conclusions. I'd say that because you're speaking total rubbish.

    FETA had to work within the budget handed to it by the SNP government. It was not enough, so compromises were made. They nearly got away with it. But in engineering, such gambles can be very expensive, both monetarily and politically.
  • Scott_P said:

    It was photoshopped?

    @paulwaugh: .@chrisshipitv has found orig bikes-in-snow photo on which Jez Xmas card is based. Naturally, he added the red light
    https://t.co/Uj1IXGYwTo

    It's a Christmas card.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.
    How relevant is that to the cancellation of planned maintenance on the existing bridge?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Dair said:


    Except that the SNP have become the establishment from the opposition in Scotland, step by step. There was no actual single tsunami in Scotland though we like to imagine one. In 2007 the SNP went from the second party to first part on a plurality of just a single seat.

    From the position of incumbency they won a decade ago the SNP have built themselves as the new Scottish establishment. It isn't anti-establishment politics, it is just a change in establishment.

    When the history is written about the end of the United Kingdom, what time will be spent on that decision. A joint decision by the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Parties. A decision to "let them run it".

    With a minority of one.

    It seems so stupid today. So full of hubris and a marked underestimation of the ability of the SNP to do (at least) a reasonable job. Or perhaps they genuinely over-estimated their own abilities and Labour thought they actually did a good job which could not be matched.

    For want of a vote**, a seat was lost,
    For want of a seat, an election was lost,
    For want of an election, a parliament was lost,
    For want of a parliament, a nation was lost.


    ** technically, IIRC, it was 72 votes in the closest seat.

    It may not be the dumbest decision of all time. But for extinguishing of the United Kingdom, it was certainly the most important. 37 people, decided the fate of the UK.
    Indeed that plurality of one is what it all traces back to.

    Frankly even with the benefit of hindsight I don't see why the Scottish Tories should have done anything different. The idea of the Tories teaming up with Labour is a complete non-starter. I don't think the Tories have done too badly with the rise of the SNP.

    Labour and the Lib Dems were already in coalition though, they could have continued to tie themselves together in knots and insist that combined they had more MPs than the SNP (with the Tories abstaining).

    Just imagine in that counter-factual universe there would have been a Labour+Lib Dem Scottish government blocking out the largest party of the SNP in 2010 when a Tory+Lib Dem national government was the only plausible answer. How could the Lib Dems have been in both governments simultaneously?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,960
    Sean_F said:

    Seat totals in France's Regions were:-

    Right 789,
    Left 551,
    FN 356,
    Corsican Nationalists 24.

    This compares with 2010,

    Left 1,177
    Right 511,
    FN 116,
    Other 43

    Could easily have been much worse.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    George Osborne is not a people person, that's for sure. That may not stop him becoming Prime Minister, however, since that is within the gift of the Conservative party rather than the electorate.

    I've been told by someone who worked in his office that Osborne is extremely shy. Being in the public eye is very difficult for him.

    Crap career choice then, George!
    I don't hold that against him. I too have been told by someone who works for him that he is genuinely nice and funny, which rather improves him in my eyes.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    Scott_P said:

    It was photoshopped?

    @paulwaugh: .@chrisshipitv has found orig bikes-in-snow photo on which Jez Xmas card is based. Naturally, he added the red light
    https://t.co/Uj1IXGYwTo

    This will have as much political impact as the time Cameron went shopping in Morrisons
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,125

    Dair said:

    You've even linked these reports yourself, check back your own posts.

    FETA had the money in its reserves if needed.
    FETA cancelled the proposal to do work in the general area (but not according to it's Liberal councillor chairman that exact area).
    FETA could have asked and would have gotten the money if required.

    FETA isn't an SNP puppet, it was run by three councils, none of which the SNP controlled. If there was a need for work and that work was not done AND there was no public outcry, then that is FETA's responsibily.

    As it stands, there is still no indication of any demands for work which was not done.

    Yes, I read my own posts and the links within. It's odd then that we come to such radically different conclusions. I'd say that because you're speaking total rubbish.

    FETA had to work within the budget handed to it by the SNP government. It was not enough, so compromises were made. They nearly got away with it. But in engineering, such gambles can be very expensive, both monetarily and politically.
    What's your view on the view that to do the work in question 'early' would have required the bridge t be closed in any case?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.

    https://twitter.com/brianspanner1/status/676132790300237825
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641

    Scott_P said:

    It was photoshopped?

    @paulwaugh: .@chrisshipitv has found orig bikes-in-snow photo on which Jez Xmas card is based. Naturally, he added the red light
    https://t.co/Uj1IXGYwTo

    This will have as much political impact as the time Cameron went shopping in Morrisons
    The phone box is also red, and is much more obvious!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.
    How relevant is that to the cancellation of planned maintenance on the existing bridge?
    It's not - its just typical deflecting "whataboutery"

    Crystallises the difference between leadership and administration - the SNP are mediocre administrators with aggressive PR.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.
    How relevant is that to the cancellation of planned maintenance on the existing bridge?
    It's also rubbish, given the Labour government at Holyrood set in place the process for the new bridge (the final report choosing a bridge over a tunnel was released a month after the SNP minority government was formed, with interims before).

    There's another foul wind going to rock the SNP over this: they chose to cost-reduce the new bridge in a number of ways, with the idea the old bridge would remain open. That's rather a gamble in the medium and long term.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    You've even linked these reports yourself, check back your own posts.

    FETA had the money in its reserves if needed.
    FETA cancelled the proposal to do work in the general area (but not according to it's Liberal councillor chairman that exact area).
    FETA could have asked and would have gotten the money if required.

    FETA isn't an SNP puppet, it was run by three councils, none of which the SNP controlled. If there was a need for work and that work was not done AND there was no public outcry, then that is FETA's responsibily.

    As it stands, there is still no indication of any demands for work which was not done.

    Yes, I read my own posts and the links within. It's odd then that we come to such radically different conclusions. I'd say that because you're speaking total rubbish.

    FETA had to work within the budget handed to it by the SNP government. It was not enough, so compromises were made. They nearly got away with it. But in engineering, such gambles can be very expensive, both monetarily and politically.
    FETA had access to their own reserves and could ask for additional funds for work which was necessary, this was clear from all the information available. It chose to work inside the budget set but it was not compelled to.

    Also, the posts you've linked about the potential to do work on the truss ends all indicate that the work required closure of the bridge for a number of weeks. That makes it clear that running down the asset in the manner that's been done was the best option.

    Any private business that does not run down retiring (or semi-retiring) assets would be failing in their fiduciary duty to shareholders. I prefer governments that work on the same prudent basis.

    It seems the PB Tories on here prefer extravagant and lavish government spending even on assets at the end of their working life.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    Dair said:

    Cyclefree said:


    The basic precepts of sharia law are fundamentally at odds with the basic rights and concepts of most Western European legal systems as exemplified in the ECHR. It is untenable, in my view, that European citizens should be deprived of the rights under the ECHR and our legal systems or excused their obligations on the basis of some informal so-called religious "court". We do not live in a theocracy and I see no reason at all to subject some of our fellow citizens to a theocracy within our country.

    There it is.

    The Tories want to scrap ECHR so they can IMPOSE SHARIA LAW!
    Grow up. Women and children are the ones who suffer from such courts. Of course, we can't expect lefties to worry about such things. Women's rights are just for white Western women and not if they interfere with more important things.

    Perhaps you might look at how Canadian Muslim women reacted when the Canadian government tried to permit sharia law there.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 14
    A man has been convicted of preparing to carry out a so-called Islamic State-inspired knife attack on the streets of London.

    Nadir Syed, 22, from Southall in west London, was arrested hours after buying a chef's knife in November 2014, days before Remembrance Sunday.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35095998
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dair said:

    at the end of their working life.

    It's not at the end. It needs to stay open cos the new bridge doesn't have the same features.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    @paulrbrennan: BREAKING: French teacher who claimed he was attacked in classroom by ISIL attacker today now admits he made it all up! (via AFP)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
    The SNP have been in power since 2007.
    FETA had an opportunity to close the bridge for maintenance in 2010.
    The SNP are running down a retiring asset. Cutting the cash is sensible.
    It's SLAB's fault, entirely, for failing to replace the bridge in 2006 with £1.5bn of money it had sitting in its bank account.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641
    BTW, a very happy Monkey Day to all my fellow PBers :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Day
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    Carnyx said:

    Dair said:

    You've even linked these reports yourself, check back your own posts.

    FETA had the money in its reserves if needed.
    FETA cancelled the proposal to do work in the general area (but not according to it's Liberal councillor chairman that exact area).
    FETA could have asked and would have gotten the money if required.

    FETA isn't an SNP puppet, it was run by three councils, none of which the SNP controlled. If there was a need for work and that work was not done AND there was no public outcry, then that is FETA's responsibily.

    As it stands, there is still no indication of any demands for work which was not done.

    Yes, I read my own posts and the links within. It's odd then that we come to such radically different conclusions. I'd say that because you're speaking total rubbish.

    FETA had to work within the budget handed to it by the SNP government. It was not enough, so compromises were made. They nearly got away with it. But in engineering, such gambles can be very expensive, both monetarily and politically.
    What's your view on the view that to do the work in question 'early' would have required the bridge t be closed in any case?
    Quite possibly; it wouldn't be the first time it (or similar bridges) have been closed for maintenance. But there may have been options to keep it partially open, and even if not, the work can be planned in advance: extra trains can be hired, roadworks on alternative routes scrapped, the work scheduled for holidays etc. It also probably would not take as long, as components and access could be made and placed beforehand.

    There's another issue in that failed parts often increase stress on other components. Having bits fail is really, really bad.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Dair said:


    Except that the SNP have become the establishment from the opposition in Scotland, step by step. There was no actual single tsunami in Scotland though we like to imagine one. In 2007 the SNP went from the second party to first part on a plurality of just a single seat.

    From the position of incumbency they won a decade ago the SNP have built themselves as the new Scottish establishment. It isn't anti-establishment politics, it is just a change in establishment.

    When the history is written about the end of the United Kingdom, what time will be spent on that decision. A joint decision by the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Parties. A decision to "let them run it".

    With a minority of one.

    It seems so stupid today. So full of hubris and a marked underestimation of the ability of the SNP to do (at least) a reasonable job. Or perhaps they genuinely over-estimated their own abilities and Labour thought they actually did a good job which could not be matched.

    For want of a vote**, a seat was lost,
    For want of a seat, an election was lost,
    For want of an election, a parliament was lost,
    For want of a parliament, a nation was lost.


    ** technically, IIRC, it was 72 votes in the closest seat.

    It may not be the dumbest decision of all time. But for extinguishing of the United Kingdom, it was certainly the most important. 37 people, decided the fate of the UK.
    Alas, the Liberal Party had no part in that decision - and when it came to the fate of the UK 3,623,174 Scots made a decision that settled that.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Perhaps you might look at how Canadian Muslim women reacted when the Canadian government tried to permit sharia law there.'

    With a slightly longer timeframe we can also cast our minds back to the days when the church in this country bypassed the king's law by having its own courts and demanding the right to try 'clerics' (aka anyone with a vague church connection) in them including for the most serious offences. That was a bad system which we got rid of and we should not be recreating its iniquities now.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    A mystifying thread.
    I see nothing remarkable in the festive photo.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    at the end of their working life.

    It's not at the end. It needs to stay open cos the new bridge doesn't have the same features.
    Due, AIUI, to SNP cost-cutting.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    MaxPB said:

    Oh good, an Osborne is crap thread! I don't think he would be a good PM at all. He would be Brown all over again. Hopefully someone like Priti Patel can barge in on the leadership election. She is a bit unsteady at times, but with some decent coaching she could be a really good leader/PM.

    If you need coaching on leadership by middle age you're not PM material.

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited 2015 14
    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.
    How relevant is that to the cancellation of planned maintenance on the existing bridge?
    It's not - its just typical deflecting "whataboutery"

    Crystallises the difference between leadership and administration - the SNP are mediocre administrators with aggressive PR.
    There's no "whataboutery" about it.

    The choice was : -

    1. Close the bridge for maintenance you have no idea would be needed.
    2a. Keep the bridge open and possibly close it for a similar amount of time.
    2b. Keep the bridge open and possibly avoid the need for closure till the new bridge opens.


    Only a drooling idiot would choose option 1. Option 2 is by far the superior cost. It has an Opportunity Cost of ZERO. It is the only rational choice.

    Even if the chance of avoiding a closure for repair, Option 2 is STILL the best option.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453



    Quite possibly; it wouldn't be the first time it (or similar bridges) have been closed for maintenance. But there may have been options to keep it partially open, and even if not, the work can be planned in advance: extra trains can be hired, roadworks on alternative routes scrapped, the work scheduled for holidays etc. It also probably would not take as long, as components and access could be made and placed beforehand.

    There's another issue in that failed parts often increase stress on other components. Having bits fail is really, really bad.

    It's a completely fatuous argument.

    "I won't get my car serviced because it would be off the road for a day. I'll wait until the engine seizes instead. Maybe that won't happen until after I buy a new one. Oh, shit..."
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    runnymede said:

    'Perhaps you might look at how Canadian Muslim women reacted when the Canadian government tried to permit sharia law there.'

    With a slightly longer timeframe we can also cast our minds back to the days when the church in this country bypassed the king's law by having its own courts and demanding the right to try 'clerics' (aka anyone with a vague church connection) in them including for the most serious offences. That was a bad system which we got rid of and we should not be recreating its iniquities now.

    Indeed not.

    And yet in recent years we have permitted precisely this to happen through blind eye turning and misplaced "respect" (more accurately described, to my mind, as fear and contempt for the rights of women who are not PLU). See this - http://equalandfree.org/timeline/.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356696/Guns-gangs-drive-bys-Welcome-Honduras-former-Rangers-star-Arnold-Peralta-shot-18-times-shopping-centre-just-one-murders-place-90-MINUTES.html

    We hear and see a lot of the violence and depravity of ISIS, but we forget just how bad it is in many central American countries these days.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dair said:



    The choice was : -

    Close the bridge for the maintenance they KNEW was needed
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
    The SNP have been in power since 2007.
    FETA had an opportunity to close the bridge for maintenance in 2010.
    The SNP are running down a retiring asset. Cutting the cash is sensible.
    It's SLAB's fault, entirely, for failing to replace the bridge in 2006 with £1.5bn of money it had sitting in its bank account.
    You certainly make me laugh. Never mind Shadwell, Tommy Cooper has nothing on you.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.
    How relevant is that to the cancellation of planned maintenance on the existing bridge?
    It's not - its just typical deflecting "whataboutery"

    Crystallises the difference between leadership and administration - the SNP are mediocre administrators with aggressive PR.
    There's no "whataboutery" about it.

    The choice was : -

    1. Close the bridge for maintenance you have no idea would be needed.
    2a. Keep the bridge open and if needed close it for a similar amount of time.
    2b. Keep the bridge open and you avoid the need for closure till the new bridge opens.


    Only a drooling idiot would choose option 1. Option 2 is by far the superior cost. It has an Opportunity Cost of ZERO. It is the only rational choice.

    But Labour haven't been in charge since 2007!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. Runnymede, read about that in The Time Traveller's Guide to Elizabethan England recently. Anyone who could recite a bible verse, I think, could be tried as clergy.

    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/review-time-travellers-guide-to.html

    Mr. Eagles, did he injure himself? The claim was he got stabbed in the side and the neck.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    @paulrbrennan: BREAKING: French teacher who claimed he was attacked in classroom by ISIL attacker today now admits he made it all up! (via AFP)

    WTF...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    @paulrbrennan: BREAKING: French teacher who claimed he was attacked in classroom by ISIL attacker today now admits he made it all up! (via AFP)

    If he did, he should be prosecuted for wasting police time.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.
    How relevant is that to the cancellation of planned maintenance on the existing bridge?
    It's not - its just typical deflecting "whataboutery"

    Crystallises the difference between leadership and administration - the SNP are mediocre administrators with aggressive PR.
    There's no "whataboutery" about it.

    The choice was : -

    1. Close the bridge for maintenance you have no idea would be needed.
    2a. Keep the bridge open and possibly close it for a similar amount of time.
    2b. Keep the bridge open and possibly avoid the need for closure till the new bridge opens.


    Only a drooling idiot would choose option 1. Option 2 is by far the superior cost. It has an Opportunity Cost of ZERO. It is the only rational choice.

    Even if the chance of avoiding a closure for repair, Option 2 is STILL the best option.

    What about option 3 - Maintenance work while keeping the bridge open. Its done all the time elsewhere.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,125

    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    at the end of their working life.

    It's not at the end. It needs to stay open cos the new bridge doesn't have the same features.
    Due, AIUI, to SNP cost-cutting.
    That was, in general, a time when the transport budget was very badly disrupted by the Unionists imposing the Edinburgh Trams. Whether that was a factor in the bridge I don't know, but it certainly hit the programme of road improvement on the northern trunk roads very badly.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Cyclefree said:

    @paulrbrennan: BREAKING: French teacher who claimed he was attacked in classroom by ISIL attacker today now admits he made it all up! (via AFP)

    If he did, he should be prosecuted for wasting police time.
    It seems the psychosis affecting some in the immediate aftermath of Paris has taken yet another form.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Carnyx said:

    That was, in general, a time when the transport budget was very badly disrupted by the Unionists imposing the Edinburgh Trams.

    The SNP voted through the funds for the trams. Unionist Parties opposed...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    Dr Fox found not guilty
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
    The SNP have been in power since 2007.
    FETA had an opportunity to close the bridge for maintenance in 2010.
    The SNP are running down a retiring asset. Cutting the cash is sensible.
    It's SLAB's fault, entirely, for failing to replace the bridge in 2006 with £1.5bn of money it had sitting in its bank account.
    Your argument is in short that the problem is everyone's fault except the people were actually in charge. A remarkable philosophy and I wonder if you carry it over into other aspects of life.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    Talking about Ed Miliband, you wonder what the family Christmas party is going to be like

    Ed sitting mournfully thinking "I stabbed my own brother in the back to become leader and I did worse than Brown"

    Whilst David is thinking "Ed what a flipping knob, I told you I would have done better"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    MaxPB said:

    Oh good, an Osborne is crap thread! I don't think he would be a good PM at all. He would be Brown all over again. Hopefully someone like Priti Patel can barge in on the leadership election. She is a bit unsteady at times, but with some decent coaching she could be a really good leader/PM.

    If you need coaching on leadership by middle age you're not PM material.

    Margaret Thatcher needed it, I hardly think she wasn't PM material given that she was our greatest peace time PM.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Your argument is in short that the problem is everyone's fault except the people were actually in charge. A remarkable philosophy and I wonder if you carry it over into other aspects of life.

    It must be true. Wings over Bath says so...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,125
    edited 2015 14
    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:

    That was, in general, a time when the transport budget was very badly disrupted by the Unionists imposing the Edinburgh Trams.

    The SNP voted through the funds for the trams. Unionist Parties opposed...
    I've been through this before with you - and you know that that is diametrically opposite to what actually happened.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    Dr Fox found not guilty

    Another successful prosecution for CPS...on wait...
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:

    That was, in general, a time when the transport budget was very badly disrupted by the Unionists imposing the Edinburgh Trams.

    The SNP voted through the funds for the trams. Unionist Parties opposed...
    There's no arguing with these SNP cultists. Let them follow their pied pipers to disaster.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    at the end of their working life.

    It's not at the end. It needs to stay open cos the new bridge doesn't have the same features.
    Due, AIUI, to SNP cost-cutting.
    We already went over this before.

    The cost of a ferry for foot and cycle passengers would likely be zero if not profitable given the likely number of users, the tourist trade and the minimal cost of such a ferry.

    The Renfrew Ferry costs £480k a year to run and I use it regularly on my bike. I'm often the only person on it, the most I've ever seen where 5 other users.

    But in any case, the old bridge is likely to be kept for architectural and engineering reasons for at least a few decades and that outcome probably hasn't changed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCDavidMiller: Asked if he will allow full disclosure of Forth Road Bridge documents, as Labour have demanded, @DerekMackayMSP responds: 'Yes I will".

    Scottish Labour in full on lemming mode.

    Their paws are all over the Forth Road Bridge. They know it. They even tried to smear the SNP with an email to Scottish Labour Councillor without even trying to explain why the Scottish Labour Councillor did nothing (perhaps because the email didn't ask for anything to be done, it's just comedy).

    SLAB must know that there will be reams of damaging releases about their cancellation of a new bridge, their opposition to a new bridge and their attempts to block a new bridge in the Minority parliament.
    How relevant is that to the cancellation of planned maintenance on the existing bridge?
    It's not - its just typical deflecting "whataboutery"

    Crystallises the difference between leadership and administration - the SNP are mediocre administrators with aggressive PR.
    There's no "whataboutery" about it.

    The choice was : -

    1. Close the bridge for maintenance you have no idea would be needed.
    2a. Keep the bridge open and possibly close it for a similar amount of time.
    2b. Keep the bridge open and possibly avoid the need for closure till the new bridge opens.


    Only a drooling idiot would choose option 1. Option 2 is by far the superior cost. It has an Opportunity Cost of ZERO. It is the only rational choice.

    Even if the chance of avoiding a closure for repair, Option 2 is STILL the best option.

    They knew the work was needed: critical components had not been manufactured to modern standards (AIUI the thickness of the steel), and was reaching its fatigue life. The bits that failed are apparently not the bits that had been of concern, but were part of the same subsystem, and would have been replaced / rejuvenated under the contract. I believe an SNP minister has now admitted as much.

    As I said before, having bits fail is really, really bad, and potentially lethal, as the Americans found a few years back.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641

    Talking about Ed Miliband, you wonder what the family Christmas party is going to be like

    Ed sitting mournfully thinking "I stabbed my own brother in the back to become leader and I did worse than Brown"

    Whilst David is thinking "Ed what a flipping knob, I told you I would have done better"

    David will be thinking "If only I stood against Gord before 2010".
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    at the end of their working life.

    It's not at the end. It needs to stay open cos the new bridge doesn't have the same features.
    Due, AIUI, to SNP cost-cutting.
    Yes. After swanning off to flutter her eyelashes at a save the world cut carbon conference she comes back to a new bridge without a bicycle lane.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Carnyx said:

    I've been through this before with you - and you know that that is diametrically opposite to what actually happened.

    Except it's not
    Edinburgh's trams project looks set to get back on track after SNP councillors said they would support moves to build a line into the city centre.

    The SNP group abstained last week when councillors voted to end the line at Haymarket, in the west of the city.

    But now the party says it will back its Lib Dem coalition partners in a new vote at a special meeting on Friday.

    That support should enable them to pass a motion to bring the trams to St Andrew Square.

    Last week Labour and Conservative councillors joined forces to reject plans to borrow an extra £230m to run the line from Edinburgh Airport to the city centre.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    runnymede said:

    'Perhaps you might look at how Canadian Muslim women reacted when the Canadian government tried to permit sharia law there.'

    With a slightly longer timeframe we can also cast our minds back to the days when the church in this country bypassed the king's law by having its own courts and demanding the right to try 'clerics' (aka anyone with a vague church connection) in them including for the most serious offences. That was a bad system which we got rid of and we should not be recreating its iniquities now.

    I would add that the key point is not that having separate church courts was a bad system (it may have been or it may have been better) but that it was a power struggle between who had ultimate authority in the kingdom: the king or the church. It was about power.

    In a similar way this issue is about who has ultimate authority and power over our citizens, including those who are Muslim: the British state or Muslim clerics. The answer has to be the same as it has been for centuries: the state.

  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Dair said:

    It chose to work inside the budget set but it was not compelled to.

    That's a strange concept of a budget.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Yes. After swanning off to flutter her eyelashes at a save the world cut carbon conference she comes back to a new bridge without a bicycle lane.

    But there's no traffic on the Forth Road Bridge. Emissions are at an all time low...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    edited 2015 14

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
    The SNP have been in power since 2007.
    FETA had an opportunity to close the bridge for maintenance in 2010.
    The SNP are running down a retiring asset. Cutting the cash is sensible.
    It's SLAB's fault, entirely, for failing to replace the bridge in 2006 with £1.5bn of money it had sitting in its bank account.
    Your argument is in short that the problem is everyone's fault except the people were actually in charge. A remarkable philosophy and I wonder if you carry it over into other aspects of life.
    It's a remarkable philosophy which has been followed for many years by many senior bankers. :)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:



    The choice was : -

    Close the bridge for the maintenance they KNEW was needed
    And there was absolutely NO-ONE who know it was needed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    at the end of their working life.

    It's not at the end. It needs to stay open cos the new bridge doesn't have the same features.
    Due, AIUI, to SNP cost-cutting.
    We already went over this before.

    The cost of a ferry for foot and cycle passengers would likely be zero if not profitable given the likely number of users, the tourist trade and the minimal cost of such a ferry.

    The Renfrew Ferry costs £480k a year to run and I use it regularly on my bike. I'm often the only person on it, the most I've ever seen where 5 other users.

    But in any case, the old bridge is likely to be kept for architectural and engineering reasons for at least a few decades and that outcome probably hasn't changed.
    That is all ridiculous assumptions.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
    The SNP have been in power since 2007.
    FETA had an opportunity to close the bridge for maintenance in 2010.
    The SNP are running down a retiring asset. Cutting the cash is sensible.
    It's SLAB's fault, entirely, for failing to replace the bridge in 2006 with £1.5bn of money it had sitting in its bank account.
    Cutting the cash might have looked sensible at the time, but the evidence probes that it wasn't.

    And maintenance on the existing bridge is independent of building the new bridge. This is pretty simple to understand.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dair said:

    And there was absolutely NO-ONE who know it was needed.

    It was planned. And then delayed.
  • DearPBDearPB Posts: 439
    He has the haunted look of a man who is nearly at the pinnacle of his profession and ambition, and finds himself being asked to smile and look happy when surrounded by singing children in blue Santa hats. Who can blame him!?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,125
    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:

    I've been through this before with you - and you know that that is diametrically opposite to what actually happened.

    Except it's not
    Edinburgh's trams project looks set to get back on track after SNP councillors said they would support moves to build a line into the city centre.

    The SNP group abstained last week when councillors voted to end the line at Haymarket, in the west of the city.

    But now the party says it will back its Lib Dem coalition partners in a new vote at a special meeting on Friday.

    That support should enable them to pass a motion to bring the trams to St Andrew Square.

    Last week Labour and Conservative councillors joined forces to reject plans to borrow an extra £230m to run the line from Edinburgh Airport to the city centre.
    You've done it again - deliberately picking a much later news report on a relatively minor adjustment (which was necessary to get the trams into Princes Street, to get a reasonable degree of benefit from them). And also deliberately picking a completely different organization. I was talking about the original Parliamentary votes for the trams, as you know perfectly well (or ought to). And I'm not going to waste my time looking it up for you yet again.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. PB, one must agree.

    There are few things crueller than enforced happiness.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Carnyx said:

    You've done it again -

    You mean shown that the SNP voted for the trams when Unionist parties voted against. Again.

    You're welcome.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:

    That was, in general, a time when the transport budget was very badly disrupted by the Unionists imposing the Edinburgh Trams.

    The SNP voted through the funds for the trams. Unionist Parties opposed...
    What the hell.

    You're now stating the exact opposite of the truth.

    The SNP Minority Government voted AGAINST continuing to fund the trams. The Tories, Labour and Liberals voted down the SNP Minority Government to keep the tram running.

    Your drooling delusions are getting worse.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mr. Runnymede, read about that in The Time Traveller's Guide to Elizabethan England recently. Anyone who could recite a bible verse, I think, could be tried as clergy.
    ...

    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/review-time-travellers-guide-to.html

    Known as the neck verse, but as you say it got the suspect out of the scope of the secular courts but only to be tried under canon law by the Church Courts (which didn't do capital punishment). The conflict between the power of the state, well Monarch really, and the Church went back a very long way (Thomas A'Beckett was just one victim) and the haggle over who could punish offending clergymen was just one small part of a much bigger argument, which boiled down to money and power.

    As a fine point of interest the Benefit of Clergy, of which the neck verse was one part, was not finally abolished in England until the early nineteenth century (1820s from memory).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 14
    Re Dr Fox acquittal.

    We really need an independent investigation into the police / CPS. It appears they have spent a huge amount of money and police time bringing innocent celebs to trial and / or are totally incompetent in putting together cases. And how many journos have been taken to court for phone hacking and their cases fallen apart.

    The William Roache investigation one was just jaw dropping the incompetence. Witness stories didn't stack up at all and the defence pulled them apart with ease. Things like claims of which houses they were taken to, when they were taken there, in which cars, all of which was found to be incorrect with mostly information in public records.

    Also remember that Rolf Harris only went down because a member of the public came forward late in the trial with new evidence, the police / CPS lawyers hadn't checked things out properly and Harris was claiming he had watertight alibi for one of the major allegations and the CPS case was actually shafted until the new evidence was allowed to be admitted right towards the end.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    @paulrbrennan: BREAKING: French teacher who claimed he was attacked in classroom by ISIL attacker today now admits he made it all up! (via AFP)

    Hmm, not sure I’d want my children educated by this odd ball – sack him, then prosecute.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
    The SNP have been in power since 2007.
    FETA had an opportunity to close the bridge for maintenance in 2010.
    The SNP are running down a retiring asset. Cutting the cash is sensible.
    It's SLAB's fault, entirely, for failing to replace the bridge in 2006 with £1.5bn of money it had sitting in its bank account.
    Your argument is in short that the problem is everyone's fault except the people were actually in charge. A remarkable philosophy and I wonder if you carry it over into other aspects of life.
    No, the point is that a number of DIFFERENT decisions were made.

    The decisions the SNP got to make, they made correctly. The decisions FETA got to make, they made correctly.

    The decisions Labour got to make. They have chosen... poorly.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Can't say I'm entirely surprised at OGH siding with Guido's smear of GO. LibDems always favoured dirty tricks.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    And there was absolutely NO-ONE who know it was needed.

    It was planned. And then delayed.
    Dair cannot work out the difference between regular preventative maintenance and fortune telling.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    DearPB said:

    He has the haunted look of a man who is nearly at the pinnacle of his profession and ambition, and finds himself being asked to smile and look happy when surrounded by singing children in blue Santa hats. Who can blame him!?

    I think you need to lie down in a darkened room for an hour or two.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:

    That was, in general, a time when the transport budget was very badly disrupted by the Unionists imposing the Edinburgh Trams.

    The SNP voted through the funds for the trams. Unionist Parties opposed...
    There's no arguing with these SNP cultists. Let them follow their pied pipers to disaster.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12779952.Tram_scheme_goes_ahead_after_SNP_defeat/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Dair cannot work out the difference between regular preventative maintenance and fortune telling.

    Fortune telling is the one where oil is $113 a barrel...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,960
    perdix said:

    Can't say I'm entirely surprised at OGH siding with Guido's smear of GO. LibDems always favoured dirty tricks.

    Is Guido a LibDem???
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. Llama, reading a biography of William Marshal at the minute.

    I think Henry II's approach to succession was fantastically incompetent. Up to about 1194. John isn't even king yet, but he's already a total arse.
  • DearPBDearPB Posts: 439

    DearPB said:

    He has the haunted look of a man who is nearly at the pinnacle of his profession and ambition, and finds himself being asked to smile and look happy when surrounded by singing children in blue Santa hats. Who can blame him!?

    I think you need to lie down in a darkened room for an hour or two.
    I think he does...
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Oh good, an Osborne is crap thread! I don't think he would be a good PM at all. He would be Brown all over again. Hopefully someone like Priti Patel can barge in on the leadership election. She is a bit unsteady at times, but with some decent coaching she could be a really good leader/PM.

    If you need coaching on leadership by middle age you're not PM material.

    Margaret Thatcher needed it, I hardly think she wasn't PM material given that she was our greatest peace time PM.
    She had coaching on leadership? You amaze me tbh

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,130
    Ed didn't lose GE2015, Labour did. Osborne can win easily. He would always be in Cameron's shadow though, and that rules him out I think.

    Corbyn gives the Tories all the space they need. It's a little bit unfortunate that they seem entirely unprepared to deal with that. Heathrow for example should be allowed to build as many runways as they like.

    It's a little bit sad that we seem to have a generation of Conservative politicians that have grown up entirely fighting the line. When there are open fields ahead of them they hesitate and squabble amongst themselves.

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Cyclefree said:

    George Osborne is not a people person, that's for sure. That may not stop him becoming Prime Minister, however, since that is within the gift of the Conservative party rather than the electorate.

    I've been told by someone who worked in his office that Osborne is extremely shy. Being in the public eye is very difficult for him.

    Crap career choice then, George!
    I don't hold that against him. I too have been told by someone who works for him that he is genuinely nice and funny, which rather improves him in my eyes.

    You can make a judgement on GO by looking at this interview with Charles Moore.
    http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/modevents/item/margaret-thatcher-everything-she-wants-charles-moore-in-conversation-with-george-osborne

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,882

    Mr. Runnymede, read about that in The Time Traveller's Guide to Elizabethan England recently. Anyone who could recite a bible verse, I think, could be tried as clergy.
    ...

    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/review-time-travellers-guide-to.html

    Known as the neck verse, but as you say it got the suspect out of the scope of the secular courts but only to be tried under canon law by the Church Courts (which didn't do capital punishment). The conflict between the power of the state, well Monarch really, and the Church went back a very long way (Thomas A'Beckett was just one victim) and the haggle over who could punish offending clergymen was just one small part of a much bigger argument, which boiled down to money and power.

    As a fine point of interest the Benefit of Clergy, of which the neck verse was one part, was not finally abolished in England until the early nineteenth century (1820s from memory).
    Church courts were generally far more lenient than secular medieval courts, whose guiding philosophy was "Tough on Crime. A Whole Lot tougher on Criminals."
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641
    edited 2015 14
    Scott_P said:

    Dair cannot work out the difference between regular preventative maintenance and fortune telling.

    Fortune telling is the one where oil is $113 a barrel...
    Going Down!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:


    The Liberal councillor who was chair of FETA said that no work was required at the time.

    So you are admitting catastrophically slack oversight by the FM's office of this critical transport quango ?
    Yes. Jack McConnell's oversight was indeed catatrophic.
    The SNP Scottish Government has done everything right.
    FETA have probably done everything right. Instead of close the bridge for maintenance that may not have been needed, they kept it open. All that happened now is something that would have happened in 2011 or 2012.
    The Labour Scottish Executive have harmed Scotland badly, by failing to build a bridge even though it had the money available and indeed returned it to Westminster to waste.
    Is this satire?

    The SNP been in power since 2007.
    SNP had news of need for maintenance in 2009
    SNP govt have been underspending in a time of alleged austerity.
    But its everybody's fault except the SNP!
    You are the new Defoe , a veritable Shadwell amongst posters.
    The SNP have been in power since 2007.
    FETA had an opportunity to close the bridge for maintenance in 2010.
    The SNP are running down a retiring asset. Cutting the cash is sensible.
    It's SLAB's fault, entirely, for failing to replace the bridge in 2006 with £1.5bn of money it had sitting in its bank account.
    Your argument is in short that the problem is everyone's fault except the people were actually in charge. A remarkable philosophy and I wonder if you carry it over into other aspects of life.
    No, the point is that a number of DIFFERENT decisions were made.

    The decisions the SNP got to make, they made correctly. The decisions FETA got to make, they made correctly.

    The decisions Labour got to make. They have chosen... poorly.
    Oh I see. The fact that this bridge has suddenly had to be closed because it is in a dangerous state is the result of people making correct decisions. Forgive me, I am not used to the Scottish way of doing things
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,882

    Mr. Llama, reading a biography of William Marshal at the minute.

    I think Henry II's approach to succession was fantastically incompetent. Up to about 1194. John isn't even king yet, but he's already a total arse.

    He really should have had Prince John executed.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:

    That was, in general, a time when the transport budget was very badly disrupted by the Unionists imposing the Edinburgh Trams.

    The SNP voted through the funds for the trams. Unionist Parties opposed...
    There's no arguing with these SNP cultists. Let them follow their pied pipers to disaster.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12779952.Tram_scheme_goes_ahead_after_SNP_defeat/
    I think SNP cult members should apostasize or leave British shores.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Re Dr Fox acquittal.

    We really need an independent investigation into the police / CPS. It appears they have spent a huge amount of money and police time bringing innocent celebs to trial and / or are totally incompetent in putting together cases. And how many journos have been taken to court for phone hacking and their cases fallen apart.

    The William Roache investigation one was just jaw dropping the incompetence. Witness stories didn't stack up at all and the defence pulled them apart with ease. Things like claims of which houses they were taken to, when they were taken there, in which cars, all of which was found to be incorrect with mostly information in public records.

    Also remember that Rolf Harris only went down because a member of the public came forward late in the trial with new evidence, the police / CPS lawyers hadn't checked things out properly and Harris was claiming he had watertight alibi for one of the major allegations and the CPS case was actually shafted until the new evidence was allowed to be admitted right towards the end.

    Cliff Richard, Freddie Starr, the list goes on. A witness in the Ken Barlow trial said he raped her at his house and when she went back 3 days later he raped her again.

    The damage done to careers is inestimable, driven by greed by lawyers and attention seekers. Of course it now makes the prosecution in genuine assault cases more difficult.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    Re Dr Fox acquittal.

    We really need an independent investigation into the police / CPS. It appears they have spent a huge amount of money and police time bringing innocent celebs to trial and / or are totally incompetent in putting together cases. And how many journos have been taken to court for phone hacking and their cases fallen apart.

    The William Roache investigation one was just jaw dropping the incompetence. Witness stories didn't stack up at all and the defence pulled them apart with ease. Things like claims of which houses they were taken to, when they were taken there, in which cars, all of which was found to be incorrect with mostly information in public records.

    Also remember that Rolf Harris only went down because a member of the public came forward late in the trial with new evidence, the police / CPS lawyers hadn't checked things out properly and Harris was claiming he had watertight alibi for one of the major allegations and the CPS case was actually shafted until the new evidence was allowed to be admitted right towards the end.

    Cliff Richard, Freddie Starr, the list goes on. A witness in the Ken Barlow trial said he raped her at his house and when she went back 3 days later he raped her again.

    The damage done to careers is inestimable, driven by greed by lawyers and attention seekers. Of course it now makes the prosecution in genuine assault cases more difficult.
    Also in the William Roche trial, they interviewed a witness who had her currently partner sitting in on the interview who answered questions for her.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,130

    Re Dr Fox acquittal.

    We really need an independent investigation into the police / CPS. It appears they have spent a huge amount of money and police time bringing innocent celebs to trial and / or are totally incompetent in putting together cases. And how many journos have been taken to court for phone hacking and their cases fallen apart.

    The William Roache investigation one was just jaw dropping the incompetence. Witness stories didn't stack up at all and the defence pulled them apart with ease. Things like claims of which houses they were taken to, when they were taken there, in which cars, all of which was found to be incorrect with mostly information in public records.

    Also remember that Rolf Harris only went down because a member of the public came forward late in the trial with new evidence, the police / CPS lawyers hadn't checked things out properly and Harris was claiming he had watertight alibi for one of the major allegations and the CPS case was actually shafted until the new evidence was allowed to be admitted right towards the end.

    Cliff Richard, Freddie Starr, the list goes on. A witness in the Ken Barlow trial said he raped her at his house and when she went back 3 days later he raped her again.

    The damage done to careers is inestimable, driven by greed by lawyers and attention seekers. Of course it now makes the prosecution in genuine assault cases more difficult.
    "and when she went back 3 days later" - The case should be thrown out on that.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. F, do you mean prior to the Third Crusade?

    I have some vague knowledge, but not up on the details of what happens next. What is quite apparent, however, is that John is an unattractive mixture of stupid, incompetent and treacherous.

    Richard the Lionheart is quite interesting. Forgave Marshal for killing his horse (whilst Richard was riding it...), but he seems to have an approach to warfare similar to the Black Prince (without the battlefield spectaculars, but with greater strategic competence, from what I've read so far).
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Omnium said:

    Re Dr Fox acquittal.

    We really need an independent investigation into the police / CPS. It appears they have spent a huge amount of money and police time bringing innocent celebs to trial and / or are totally incompetent in putting together cases. And how many journos have been taken to court for phone hacking and their cases fallen apart.

    The William Roache investigation one was just jaw dropping the incompetence. Witness stories didn't stack up at all and the defence pulled them apart with ease. Things like claims of which houses they were taken to, when they were taken there, in which cars, all of which was found to be incorrect with mostly information in public records.

    Also remember that Rolf Harris only went down because a member of the public came forward late in the trial with new evidence, the police / CPS lawyers hadn't checked things out properly and Harris was claiming he had watertight alibi for one of the major allegations and the CPS case was actually shafted until the new evidence was allowed to be admitted right towards the end.

    Cliff Richard, Freddie Starr, the list goes on. A witness in the Ken Barlow trial said he raped her at his house and when she went back 3 days later he raped her again.

    The damage done to careers is inestimable, driven by greed by lawyers and attention seekers. Of course it now makes the prosecution in genuine assault cases more difficult.
    "and when she went back 3 days later" - The case should be thrown out on that.

    It was I believe, quite rightly
This discussion has been closed.