From a distance, the Kipper campaign looked like an air war conducted door to door.
The Labour man was a very strong, well known local candidate with a track-record - that's very hard to trump. Talking national broad brush values in a by-election seems wrongheaded to me, I'm wondering if this method of campaigning is the real issue.
"A political party van going round and wishing for a "white" Christmas" was another barely disguised punt at racism."
If it was playing "White Christmas" continually, it was indeed a racist action. If White Christmas was one of many Christmas songs it played, it clearly wasn't, and you are being a paranoid loon.
Unless, of course, you believe that one of the most popular ever Christmas songs should be banned because it may offend. The Daily Mail would have a field day, and unusually would be right..
I do not want "White Christmas" banned. Poor Bing Crosby has already suffered enough having the second best voice in a century !
But UKIPs entire strategy was based on race including a rather naïve assumption that since 25% of the constituency were Asian , therefore, everyone will be against them.
The points made about PV was farcical. One was 99% from one ward / polling station was all Labour. How did they know ?
It will work with some indeed. But there are also WWC voters who have not voted since 1997 who are coming back home.
So much has been made of Diane James. Her comments on TW Special was laughable. She said that it was "not fair" that postal voters voted earlier. Huh ? But that is part of the idea. The entire State of Oregon either votes by post or online. That is what the world is going to. Amazon, Argos...........Elections !
UKIP's entire strategy was based on criticising Jeremy Corbyn, not race.
Thats true, but they offered very little else - and I'm a Kipper - in this by-election. Flat caps and Jezza bashing, do not a policy make.
Perhaps we could agree that Labour increased its vote share on a much reduced turnout then? The part we don't know is the reasons for the reduced turnout....
Number 1 (through to 6) Turnouts in by-elections are ALWAYS (someone will now provide the one out of hundreds that wasn't) lower than General Elections Number 7 It was a cold windy wet dark December day
Given those, and a previously very long serving MP, Labour did very well......
.....
Agreed but there seems to be some Err discussions here otherwise. Actually the Labour guy was very popular from council days so in fairness that probably did more than most to get a strong showing.
It was unfortunate though that he now is not a member of the NEC as councillors Rep and as now an MP has been removed by default. It will be interesting to see who takes his place unless that has been already decided but recent events would point to a Corbynistas type rather than a centralist or moderate left winger.
"A political party van going round and wishing for a "white" Christmas" was another barely disguised punt at racism."
If it was playing "White Christmas" continually, it was indeed a racist action. If White Christmas was one of many Christmas songs it played, it clearly wasn't, and you are being a paranoid loon.
Unless, of course, you believe that one of the most popular ever Christmas songs should be banned because it may offend. The Daily Mail would have a field day, and unusually would be right..
I do not want "White Christmas" banned. Poor Bing Crosby has already suffered enough having the second best voice in a century !
But UKIPs entire strategy was based on race including a rather naïve assumption that since 25% of the constituency were Asian , therefore, everyone will be against them.
The points made about PV was farcical. One was 99% from one ward / polling station was all Labour. How did they know ?
It will work with some indeed. But there are also WWC voters who have not voted since 1997 who are coming back home.
So much has been made of Diane James. Her comments on TW Special was laughable. She said that it was "not fair" that postal voters voted earlier. Huh ? But that is part of the idea. The entire State of Oregon either votes by post or online. That is what the world is going to. Amazon, Argos...........Elections !
UKIP's entire strategy was based on criticising Jeremy Corbyn, not race.
That didn't work either ! Eggs, basket.........
UKIP seems to be quite a lazy party. Sustained success under FPTP is built on relentless legwork, knocking on doors, making a difference at local level and so on. UKIP's leadership don't seem to be very interested in doing that, but it's how the LDs grew, before they threw it all away. It's also what the SNP did. There is no substitute for doing the hard yards.
You are correct in some respects, but kippers are far from lazy, they are incredibly, perhaps too enthusiastic. As a new party what we don't have are the resources, infrastructure and voting history which makes targeting very difficult. I know from personal experience that when out canvassing you're poking in the dark when trying to ascertain potential and past voters.
Wow there is more balance in the Daily Mail than PB.
Then you've not been reading - most people said JC was the big winner - the only question is whether this helps make Labour more electable. Oborne is a maverick writer and hates everyone who doesn't subscribe to his version of the 'truth'.
They seem to think 10,722 is an increase on 14,738......really, Scottish education!
As they say lies lies and damn statistics.
And in the case of Nats, innumeracy.....
Caught lying again but cannot just admit it.
You are seriously arguing that 10,772 is a bigger number than 14,738?
Or is your defence 'illiteracy' as in 'I don't understand the difference between 'majority' and 'share of vote'?
Which is it?
You are the one on the defensive, you traduce All Scots with a false premise , conflating the actual numbers with the actual point made regarding the % of the vote. When caught flat out lying and trying to be smart , you begin to bluster and throw more insults to deflect from the obvious initial point , you lied and tried a cheap shot , thinking you are real smart when you are not as smart as you think. You are the one who tried to claim a % increase in the majority was not true by using the numbers above, when facts show it is an increased % majority. When you are caught lying , just admit it or retire and lick your wounds.
UKIP's potential in the North will be along the eastern coast rather than the west. It also requires Tories to see them as a necessary buffer/counter to Labour so that tactical votes can be accumulated. That happened in Heywood, but never happened Thursday.
Perhaps we could agree that Labour increased its vote share on a much reduced turnout then? The part we don't know is the reasons for the reduced turnout....
1) don't like Labour anymore 2) dont like " terrorist sympathisers" 3) couldn't find me wellies and brolly.
As for the White Christmas thingy it was part of a compilation of Crimbo carols I understand and therefore in no way racial. Had this been the only one played then I would then agree the line could have been construed as technically crossed. They didn't so it wasn't.
How many by-elections are you aware of where the turnout was higher than the preceding general election ?
No idea, couldn't be arsed to look either but I guess more hens teeth are likely to be found. The point remains that this seems a compromise position for all and what actually happened on the day.
So Mr Smartarse who demands links and proof is not so hot when he is the one being asked to provide proof of his stupidity. Let that be a lesson to you before you post rubbish you know to be false.
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished
Until members and unions come to see that perennial Tory government is not a price worth paying for ideological purity, Corbyn is going nowhere. Labour needs constant defeat before that realisation sets in. So David is right, the win in Oldham helps him. The losses will come soon enough, but until they do the only winners are the Tories. And even they should be slightly concerned - see Charles Moore in today's Telegraph. This country needs a competent opposition because good government needs the fear of defeat to drive it on. Tory complacency does no-one any favours.
From what I have read over the years on here , you have never wanted Labour to win under Brown or Milliband. You voted Lib Dem and was happy with coalition hardly effective opposition. There is a competent party in Scotland the SNP to oppose the government. However you were against them to.
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Neither Mugabe nor Gaddafi turned out well.
But, to answer your question, there is often nothing that one can reasonably offer the terrorist. In the past, both Corbyn and McDonnell supported coercing Northern Ireland's inhabitants into joining the Irish Republic against their will.
That was something that no British government could reasonably concede. A truce became possible once the IRA was prepared to tolerate Northern Ireland's position in the UK.
So seven months after Meacher polled a 14,000 majority his successor polls a 10,000 majority..and that is considered a victory...more like a plummet to me..
Basic arithmetic says otherwise
Actually basic percentages say otherwise - on the arithmetic he is correct. But we know that the don't do good sums in Scotland - how would you like your oil price drop? Numbers or percentages - pretty funny either way.
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished a distant second.
.............. As for Labour, the winning candidate in Oldham looks to be the ideal: grounded, pragmatic, focused squarely on outcomes and non-ideological. Work with anyone to get what you want - greater equality of opportunity, a relentless focus on alleviating poverty and so on - but hold all stakeholders to the highest standards and never accept a race to the bottom. Sadly, this is not Corbyn Labour in any way, shape or form.
Until members and unions come to see that perennial Tory government is not a price worth paying for ideological purity, Corbyn is going nowhere. Labour needs constant defeat before that realisation sets in. So David is right, the win in Oldham helps him. The losses will come soon enough, but until they do the only winners are the Tories. And even they should be slightly concerned - see Charles Moore in today's Telegraph. This country needs a competent opposition because good government needs the fear of defeat to drive it on. Tory complacency does no-one any favours.
From what I have read over the years on here , you have never wanted Labour to win under Brown or Milliband. You voted Lib Dem and was happy with coalition hardly effective opposition. There is a competent party in Scotland the SNP to oppose the government. However you were against them to.
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Two questions:-
1. Do you think IS would like to talk to us? 2. What do you think IS would like to talk to us about?
"A political party van going round and wishing for a "white" Christmas" was another barely disguised punt at racism."
If it was playing "White Christmas" continually, it was indeed a racist action. If White Christmas was one of many Christmas songs it played, it clearly wasn't, and you are being a paranoid loon.
Unless, of course, you believe that one of the most popular ever Christmas songs should be banned because it may offend. The Daily Mail would have a field day, and unusually would be right..
I do not want "White Christmas" banned. Poor Bing Crosby has already suffered enough having the second best voice in a century !
But UKIPs entire strategy was based on race including a rather naïve assumption that since 25% of the constituency were Asian , therefore, everyone will be against them.
The points made about PV was farcical. One was 99% from one ward / polling station was all Labour. How did they know ?
It will work with some indeed. But there are also WWC voters who have not voted since 1997 who are coming back home.
So much has been made of Diane James. Her comments on TW Special was laughable. She said that it was "not fair" that postal voters voted earlier. Huh ? But that is part of the idea. The entire State of Oregon either votes by post or online. That is what the world is going to. Amazon, Argos...........Elections !
UKIP's entire strategy was based on criticising Jeremy Corbyn, not race.
That didn't work either ! Eggs, basket.........
UKIP seems to be quite a lazy party. Sustained success under FPTP is built on relentless legwork, knocking on doors, making a difference at local level and so on. UKIP's leadership don't seem to be very interested in doing that, but it's how the LDs grew, before they threw it all away. It's also what the SNP did. There is no substitute for doing the hard yards.
You are correct in some respects, but kippers are far from lazy, they are incredibly, perhaps too enthusiastic. As a new party what we don't have are the resources, infrastructure and voting history which makes targeting very difficult. I know from personal experience that when out canvassing you're poking in the dark when trying to ascertain potential and past voters.
The ground troops need direction. They are not the problem. It's the leadership. The LDs had all the same issues, but they had people at the top who worked incredibly hard to overcome them. UKIP's top brass don't seem interested in doing that. They have their MEP seats, their TV interviews and media profiles and that seems to be enough.
Mr. Surbiton, and which of the men to whom you refer wanted to spread by violence a state across the Middle East, North Africa and Southern Europe?
How do you negotiate when the other side's starting position is "Convert or die"?
Soon we will talk with the Taliban in Afghanistan. What will we do when they take over again ? Send troops ? The idea is to talk to them [ fair enough, it is already happening behind the scenes ] and draw them in.
You will find the sons of Taliban leaders will be studying in English public schools in no time and British banks will be taking their deposits. Some things do not change.
Gaddafi was such a big terrorist that his son was financing the LSE !
An observation- I am just back from a trip to the UK. I met up with some old friends, we discussed ISIS. I then met up with my family, who similarly were keen to only talk about ISIS. My wife said at her office people were only talking about ISIS. During a work lunch, ISIS. My wife's Italian mother is obsessed by ISIS. At the supermarket she bumps into fellow Italians who want to talk about ISIS.
BTW- good article as usual from David.
I am quite the opposite , I have minimum conversations on ISIS , and then only to state what a baw faced liar Cameron is. It is a common trait among sheeple , they will be back to the weather or the next celebrity scandal/show in a month or so.
I have had very few ISIS-related conversations. My general assumption is that the people I tend to talk to think about them in the same way as I do - they're evil, murdering scum who need to be wiped out. That's not really a very long chat. That said, I'm a Red Tory and am not on Facebook!
It is just mass hysteria whipped up by the Government and their state media propaganda units
Paris?
After they started bombing Syria, copying UK policy of poking their noses in other people's business. UK will be next for sure , unless Dave can martial his 70,000 ground troops before then.
Since the War there have been 16 with increased turnout from the preceding General Election.
Four have been caused by assassination - all the IRA, 24 accidental deaths (mostly car crashes), 10 suicides, 19 scandals and 6 to make way for someone else....
UKIP's potential in the North will be along the eastern coast rather than the west. It also requires Tories to see them as a necessary buffer/counter to Labour so that tactical votes can be accumulated. That happened in Heywood, but never happened Thursday.
Under Corbyn the Tories don't need a buffer against Labour.
Yesterday I bumped into our local UKIP parish councillor, who is on the sensible UKIP wing (if there is such a thing). He was wearing one of those flat caps, as per Oldham. He said he had bought it recently because he needed a new hat. Is this a) evidence that UKIP activists all come from a particular demographic b) evidence of UKIP group think c) evidence of a cult of UKIP leader worship c) some sort of sinister take over of UKIP by flat cap manufacturers
d) .... or
e) he's hiding the evidence that he's lost his hair in addition to his shirt after betting on MikeK's prediction of 102 UKIP MPs.
An observation- I am just back from a trip to the UK. I met up with some old friends, we discussed ISIS. I then met up with my family, who similarly were keen to only talk about ISIS. My wife said at her office people were only talking about ISIS. During a work lunch, ISIS. My wife's Italian mother is obsessed by ISIS. At the supermarket she bumps into fellow Italians who want to talk about ISIS.
BTW- good article as usual from David.
I am quite the opposite , I have minimum conversations on ISIS , and then only to state what a baw faced liar Cameron is. It is a common trait among sheeple , they will be back to the weather or the next celebrity scandal/show in a month or so.
I have had very few ISIS-related conversations. My general assumption is that the people I tend to talk to think about them in the same way as I do - they're evil, murdering scum who need to be wiped out. That's not really a very long chat. That said, I'm a Red Tory and am not on Facebook!
It is just mass hysteria whipped up by the Government and their state media propaganda units
Paris?
After they started bombing Syria, copying UK policy of poking their noses in other people's business. UK will be next for sure , unless Dave can martial his 70,000 ground troops before then.
So you agree with Ken Livingstone - its our fault?
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished
Until members and unions come to see that perennial Tory government is not a price worth paying for ideological purity, Corbyn is going nowhere. Labour needs constant defeat before that realisation sets in. So David is right, the win in Oldham helps him. The losses will come soon enough, but until they do the only winners are the Tories. And even they should be slightly concerned - see Charles Moore in today's Telegraph. This country needs a competent opposition because good government needs the fear of defeat to drive it on. Tory complacency does no-one any favours.
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Neither Mugabe nor Gaddafi turned out well.
But, to answer your question, there is often nothing that one can reasonably offer the terrorist. In the past, both Corbyn and McDonnell supported coercing Northern Ireland's inhabitants into joining the Irish Republic against their will.
That was something that no British government could reasonably concede. A truce became possible once the IRA was prepared to tolerate Northern Ireland's position in the UK.
Exactly so. It was when most of those people stopped attacking us and being terrorists that any sort of peace was achieved. IS have shown no sign of wanting anything other than the total surrender and elimination of their opponents and enemies, as defined by them, which seem to include everyone who is not wholeheartedly with them. That could not be said of Mandela and to suggest otherwise is beyond crass.
@Surbiton - I see subtle differences between Mandela and ISIS.
Nothing Corbyn said or did hastened the end of the IRA's attempts to bomb Northern Ireland into a union with the Republic against the wishes of the majority of its population. Likewise, his support of an irganisation that advocated the killing of British soldiers in Iraq and which blames ISIS murders on the West will not end the violence in the middle east ir attacks elsewhere.
Surbiton What has that got to do with anything... the reality is that the majority in a very safe Labour seat fell dramatically from 14,000 to 10,000 over a period of seven months..Somehow Labour see that as some sort of great victory..most people see it as a very dangerous drop..regardless of the turnout percentages..it is a drop.
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
They seem to think 10,722 is an increase on 14,738......really, Scottish education!
As they say lies lies and damn statistics.
And in the case of Nats, innumeracy.....
Caught lying again but cannot just admit it.
You are seriously arguing that 10,772 is a bigger number than 14,738?
Or is your defence 'illiteracy' as in 'I don't understand the difference between 'majority' and 'share of vote'?
Which is it?
You are the one on the defensive, you traduce All Scots with a false premise , conflating the actual numbers with the actual point made regarding the % of the vote. When caught flat out lying and trying to be smart , you begin to bluster and throw more insults to deflect from the obvious initial point , you lied and tried a cheap shot , thinking you are real smart when you are not as smart as you think. You are the one who tried to claim a % increase in the majority was not true by using the numbers above, when facts show it is an increased % majority. When you are caught lying , just admit it or retire and lick your wounds.
Gosh!
You are cross.
And wrong.
As usual.
I'm happy to let our posts speak for themselves.
Since you are hard of learning:
Majority = number of votes Share = percentage of votes
Only the share went up. The majority went down - but as I've explained previously, thats a misleading way to look at it.....
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished a distant second.
..............
.
From what I have read over the years on here , you have never wanted Labour to win under Brown or Milliband. You voted Lib Dem and was happy with coalition hardly effective opposition. There is a competent party in Scotland the SNP to oppose the government. However you were against them to.
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Two questions:-
1. Do you think IS would like to talk to us? 2. What do you think IS would like to talk to us about?
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
So seven months after Meacher polled a 14,000 majority his successor polls a 10,000 majority..and that is considered a victory...more like a plummet to me..
Basic arithmetic says otherwise
Actually basic percentages say otherwise - on the arithmetic he is correct. But we know that the don't do good sums in Scotland - how would you like your oil price drop? Numbers or percentages - pretty funny either way.
Another dummy that cannot count or understand %. I am constantly amazed at the amount of ill educated dullards on here. On your second point , how did the government forecast go , it was even funnier as they had it higher, not only cannot count but you are stupid to boot.
Mr. Surbiton, and which of the men to whom you refer wanted to spread by violence a state across the Middle East, North Africa and Southern Europe?
How do you negotiate when the other side's starting position is "Convert or die"?
Soon we will talk with the Taliban in Afghanistan. What will we do when they take over again ? Send troops ? The idea is to talk to them [ fair enough, it is already happening behind the scenes ] and draw them in.
You will find the sons of Taliban leaders will be studying in English public schools in no time and British banks will be taking their deposits. Some things do not change.
Gaddafi was such a big terrorist that his son was financing the LSE !
Talking makes sense if your opponents know there is a military price to be paid if they won't talk, and if they are willing to make demands that are realistic. At this point, IS are looking for unconditional surrender.
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Neither Mugabe nor Gaddafi turned out well.
But, to answer your question, there is often nothing that one can reasonably offer the terrorist. In the past, both Corbyn and McDonnell supported coercing Northern Ireland's inhabitants into joining the Irish Republic against their will.
That was something that no British government could reasonably concede. A truce became possible once the IRA was prepared to tolerate Northern Ireland's position in the UK.
Exactly so. It was when most of those people stopped attacking us and being terrorists that any sort of peace was achieved. IS have shown no sign of wanting anything other than the total surrender and elimination of their opponents and enemies, as defined by them, which seem to include everyone who is not wholeheartedly with them. That could not be said of Mandela and to suggest otherwise is beyond crass.
I missed the bit where Corbyn was talking to ISIS.
UKIP's potential in the North will be along the eastern coast rather than the west. It also requires Tories to see them as a necessary buffer/counter to Labour so that tactical votes can be accumulated. That happened in Heywood, but never happened Thursday.
UKIP are a bunch of jokers. This notion of them replacing labour is rubbish. The only appeal it has got for labour voters is one of anti muslim anti african anti indian anti immigrant. We have seen how limited that is since it shores up all those sections of voters for labour. It has moved from a single issue anti EU party to a single issue ranting anti immigrant party. It has no other working class appeal. This is why the policy of Momentum and STW in taking over the workings of Labour now that its got Corbyn as leader is so clever and practicable. Labours core vote will hold up and they gain control of a major political party.
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished a distant second.
.............. As for Labour, the winning candidate in Oldham looks to be the ideal: grounded, pragmatic, focused squarely on outcomes and non-ideological. Work with anyone to get what you want - greater equality of opportunity, a relentless focus on alleviating poverty and so on - but hold all stakeholders to the highest standards and never accept a race to the bottom. Sadly, this is not Corbyn Labour in any way, shape or form.
Until members and unions come to see that perennial Tory government is not a price worth paying for ideological purity, Corbyn is going nowhere. Labour needs constant defeat before that realisation sets in. So David is right, the win in Oldham helps him. The losses will come soon enough, but until they do the only winners are the Tories. And even they should be slightly concerned - see Charles Moore in today's Telegraph. This country needs a competent opposition because good government needs the fear of defeat to drive it on. Tory complacency does no-one any favours.
From what I have read over the years on here , you have never wanted Labour to win under Brown or Milliband. You voted Lib Dem and was happy with coalition hardly effective opposition. There is a competent party in Scotland the SNP to oppose the government. However you were against them to.
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Nothing to stop Jeremy heading off to Raqqua tomorrow - I'd even pitch in for the air fare.
An observation- I am just back from a trip to the UK. I met up with some old friends, we discussed ISIS. I then met up with my family, who similarly were keen to only talk about ISIS. My wife said at her office people were only talking about ISIS. During a work lunch, ISIS. My wife's Italian mother is obsessed by ISIS. At the supermarket she bumps into fellow Italians who want to talk about ISIS.
BTW- good article as usual from David.
I am quite the opposite , I have minimum conversations on ISIS , and then only to state what a baw faced liar Cameron is. It is a common trait among sheeple , they will be back to the weather or the next celebrity scandal/show in a month or so.
I have had very few ISIS-related conversations. My general assumption is that the people I tend to talk to think about them in the same way as I do - they're evil, murdering scum who need to be wiped out. That's not really a very long chat. That said, I'm a Red Tory and am not on Facebook!
It is just mass hysteria whipped up by the Government and their state media propaganda units
Paris?
After they started bombing Syria, copying UK policy of poking their noses in other people's business. UK will be next for sure , unless Dave can martial his 70,000 ground troops before then.
So you agree with Ken Livingstone - its our fault?
Another Tory imagination. How did you make that unbelievable leap. We have blundered in due to Cameron being embarrassed previously and being desperate to reverse the decision, no plans, based on lies. Bombing sand dunes and civilians will not help the situation one bit as France has found. Most of the terrorists are home grown. Unliek you I can look at a bigger picture than what Cameron wants and I find his plans inadequate and dangerous. It will only make the UK more likely to be bombed and all just to salve his embarrassment. Stick your false assertions where the sun don't shine.
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
OPEC will lose. All they have done over the last year or so is driven down the cost of shale gas/oil production. Changes that would have taken years to improve technology and drive down costs have been achieved in months because of the pressures from the low oil price.
My boss has just reduced my £14,000 BY £4,000 TO £10,000..but that's ok...because he explained to me that there had been a shortfall in company income and as a percentage of monies available for salaries it was in fact a rise..geddit..I might have a little bit of bother at the bank.. and with the mortgage ..but they will understand.. they know all about percentages..
Perhaps we could agree that Labour increased its vote share on a much reduced turnout then? The part we don't know is the reasons for the reduced turnout....
1) don't like Labour anymore 2) dont like " terrorist sympathisers" 3) couldn't find me wellies and brolly.
As for the White Christmas thingy it was part of a compilation of Crimbo carols I understand and therefore in no way racial. Had this been the only one played then I would then agree the line could have been construed as technically crossed. They didn't so it wasn't.
How many by-elections are you aware of where the turnout was higher than the preceding general election ?
No idea, couldn't be arsed to look either but I guess more hens teeth are likely to be found. The point remains that this seems a compromise position for all and what actually happened on the day.
So Mr Smartarse who demands links and proof is not so hot when he is the one being asked to provide proof of his stupidity. Let that be a lesson to you before you post rubbish you know to be false.
Unlike you, I was not making a claim like you did, did not call. Anyone liars and agreed with the poster concerned on the challenge.
I actually agreed with Surbiton in the following post and even gave a good valid reason for why the vote was so strong. You yourself the day after abused a postter for giving "an opinion" having complained the day before of someone doing just that. I was going to all you out on it but what's the point it simply would have been met with a further tirade of abuse and bile. You still never provided any links to your "liar" statement by the way. Not unexpectedly.
I have decided simply not to engage with you on anything because of your attitude, arguments and treatment of just about all other posters on here which is is straight out of the 1st form and most unpleasant. Let's agree on one thing then you don't reply or read my posts and I will give you a similar courtesy.
An observation- I am just back from a trip to the UK. I met up with some old friends, we discussed ISIS. I then met up with my family, who similarly were keen to only talk about ISIS. My wife said at her office people were only talking about ISIS. During a work lunch, ISIS. My wife's Italian mother is obsessed by ISIS. At the supermarket she bumps into fellow Italians who want to talk about ISIS.
BTW- good article as usual from David.
I am quite the opposite , I have minimum conversations on ISIS , and then only to state what a baw faced liar Cameron is. It is a common trait among sheeple , they will be back to the weather or the next celebrity scandal/show in a month or so.
I have had very few ISIS-related conversations. My general assumption is that the people I tend to talk to think about them in the same way as I do - they're evil, murdering scum who need to be wiped out. That's not really a very long chat. That said, I'm a Red Tory and am not on Facebook!
It is just mass hysteria whipped up by the Government and their state media propaganda units
Paris?
After they started bombing Syria, copying UK policy of poking their noses in other people's business. UK will be next for sure , unless Dave can martial his 70,000 ground troops before then.
So you agree with Ken Livingstone - its our fault?
Another Tory imagination. How did you make that unbelievable leap. We have blundered in due to Cameron being embarrassed previously and being desperate to reverse the decision, no plans, based on lies. Bombing sand dunes and civilians will not help the situation one bit as France has found. Most of the terrorists are home grown. Unliek you I can look at a bigger picture than what Cameron wants and I find his plans inadequate and dangerous. It will only make the UK more likely to be bombed and all just to salve his embarrassment. Stick your false assertions where the sun don't shine.
So seven months after Meacher polled a 14,000 majority his successor polls a 10,000 majority..and that is considered a victory...more like a plummet to me..
Well it isn't. Honestly, did you expect the same turnout at a by election? Yes numerically it was a fall, but given the overall numbers fell, it isn't a plummet in labour support, just a plummet in total voters, and that across the board as happens in by elections. Proportionally labour did great.
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished a distant second.
.............. As for Labour, the winning candidate in Oldham looks.
From what I have read over the years on here , you
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
We talk to terrorists in the end, yes, only idiots pretend we don't. But you cannot just 'talk to them earlier', they and you have to reach a point where you can deal with each other, and that takes time and either them modulating position due to recognising their aims are not achievable with blood, or we have to give up fighting because we cannot beat them and have to accept them.
It cannot always happen earlier because if you indicate you're willing to talk openly before they think they have to, it only makes them bolder, it has to be a long process s both sides accept its the only way, for the time being at least. With the ira and others including today's murderous nutters, pretending they want to talk when they don't, outside our capitulation, is just unhelpful. Lock yourself into a peace they don't yet want and when you do try to talk you get nothing.
It looks like the days of the UK having a surplus on income from foreign investments might be over for good:
' The UK’s international investment position abroad (outward FDI position) decreased from £1,024.6 billion to £1,015.4 billion between 2013 and 2014, the lowest level recorded since 2009 (£981.5 billion). The 2014 estimate also marked the third consecutive annual decline since 2011 (£1,090.9 billion).
The international investment position in the UK by overseas residents and businesses (inward FDI positions) at the end of 2014 reached £1,034.3 billion, up from £910.3 billion in 2013. The level of inward investment in 2014 was the highest on record, having continued to follow an upward trend in recent decades. '
If the UK runs a permanent trade deficit and a permanent tourism deficit and has a deficit on government transactions (overseas aid, EU contributions etc) and has a deficit on investments then something will have to change and likely have to change soon. That something will involve a big reduction in living standards.
They seem to think 10,722 is an increase on 14,738......really, Scottish education!
As they say lies lies and damn statistics.
And in the case of Nats, innumeracy.....
Caught lying again but cannot just admit it.
You are seriously arguing that 10,772 is a bigger number than 14,738?
Or is your defence 'illiteracy' as in 'I don't understand the difference between 'majority' and 'share of vote'?
Which is it?
You are the one on the defensive, you traduce All Scots with a false premise , conflating the actual numbers with the actual point made regarding the % of the vote. When caught flat out lying and trying to be smart , you begin to bluster and throw more insults to deflect from the obvious initial point , you lied and tried a cheap shot , thinking you are real smart when you are not as smart as you think. You are the one who tried to claim a % increase in the majority was not true by using the numbers above, when facts show it is an increased % majority. When you are caught lying , just admit it or retire and lick your wounds.
Gosh!
You are cross.
And wrong.
As usual.
I'm happy to let our posts speak for themselves.
Since you are hard of learning:
Majority = number of votes Share = percentage of votes
Only the share went up. The majority went down - but as I've explained previously, thats a misleading way to look at it.....
You can change the topic as often as you want, the initial point that the % share increased is a fact that cannot be changed by obfuscating and starting to point at numbers of voters.
''Unliek you I can look at a bigger picture than what Cameron wants and I find his plans inadequate and dangerous. It will only make the UK more likely to be bombed and all just to salve his embarrassment.''
They are going to bomb us anyway Malcolm. Look at what happened to the poor Yazidis. They didn;t bomb anybody.
So seven months after Meacher polled a 14,000 majority his successor polls a 10,000 majority..and that is considered a victory...more like a plummet to me..
Basic arithmetic says otherwise
Actually basic percentages say otherwise - on the arithmetic he is correct. But we know that the don't do good sums in Scotland - how would you like your oil price drop? Numbers or percentages - pretty funny either way.
Another dummy that cannot count or understand %. I am constantly amazed at the amount of ill educated dullards on here. On your second point , how did the government forecast go , it was even funnier as they had it higher, not only cannot count but you are stupid to boot.
I see you've been over-indulging on turnips - again. And the way the oil price is going that's all you're gonna be able to afford. Remind us again how the SNP were talking about oil revenues before they got stuffed last year.
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Absolutely right. It was the Saudis and the Gulf states who fomented the uprising against Assad as they saw his secularism and his moderate Alawite strand of Shia Islam as an affront to their beliefs. And of course we - the West - will do absolutely anything to support the Saudis whilst ignoring their own crimes.
It looks like the days of the UK having a surplus on income from foreign investments might be over for good:
' The UK’s international investment position abroad (outward FDI position) decreased from £1,024.6 billion to £1,015.4 billion between 2013 and 2014, the lowest level recorded since 2009 (£981.5 billion). The 2014 estimate also marked the third consecutive annual decline since 2011 (£1,090.9 billion).
The international investment position in the UK by overseas residents and businesses (inward FDI positions) at the end of 2014 reached £1,034.3 billion, up from £910.3 billion in 2013. The level of inward investment in 2014 was the highest on record, having continued to follow an upward trend in recent decades. '
If the UK runs a permanent trade deficit and a permanent tourism deficit and has a deficit on government transactions (overseas aid, EU contributions etc) and has a deficit on investments then something will have to change and likely have to change soon. That something will involve a big reduction in living standards.
Agreed. Of all the media, only William Keegan in the Observer seems to be pointing out how truly poor UK position is. At some point there will be a reckoning. Presumably with an attack on the pound. Where will interest rates go then?
As I've said before on here, I personally can't see Osborne getting to 2020 election without some kind of recession or even deeper economic crisis. But who knows. Forecasting is a mug's game.
They seem to think 10,722 is an increase on 14,738......really, Scottish education!
As they say lies lies and damn statistics.
And in the case of Nats, innumeracy.....
Caught lying again but cannot just admit it.
You are seriously arguing that 10,772 is a bigger number than 14,738?
Or is your defence 'illiteracy' as in 'I don't understand the difference between 'majority' and 'share of vote'?
Which is it?
You are the one on the defensive, you traduce All Scots with a false premise , conflating the actual numbers with the actual point made regarding the % of the vote. When caught flat out lying and trying to be smart , you begin to bluster and throw more insults to deflect from the obvious initial point , you lied and tried a cheap shot , thinking you are real smart when you are not as smart as you think. You are the one who tried to claim a % increase in the majority was not true by using the numbers above, when facts show it is an increased % majority. When you are caught lying , just admit it or retire and lick your wounds.
Gosh!
You are cross.
And wrong.
As usual.
I'm happy to let our posts speak for themselves.
Since you are hard of learning:
Majority = number of votes Share = percentage of votes
Only the share went up. The majority went down - but as I've explained previously, thats a misleading way to look at it.....
You can change the topic as often as you want, the initial point that the % share increased is a fact that cannot be changed by obfuscating and starting to point at numbers of voters.
Yes - but the headline in The National was not:
Labour increases Vote Share in Oldham by-election as ‘upset’ Nigel Farage cries foul
But:
Labour increases majority in Oldham by-election as ‘upset’ Nigel Farage cries foul
Or did you not read that before embarking on your embarrassing thrashing about.....
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
Saudia amongst others will face budget problems at some point though.
Scared of being called a terrorist sympathiser perhaps?
'Mr Benn, who supports military intervention to protect civilians, said he did not think the Government was planning to come forward with a proposal to extend air strikes from Iraq into Syria.
But asked if he thought they should, Mr Benn said: “No.” He added: “They have to come up with an overall plan, which they have not done. I think the focus for now is finding a peaceful solution to the civil war.”
The shadow Foreign Secretary added: “The most useful contribution we can make is to support as a nation the peace talks that have started. That is the single most important thing we can do.”
Mr Benn’s intervention came in a wide-ranging interview in which he said he was “certain” that Jeremy Corbyn could become Prime Minister in 2020, and revealed that he first met the Labour leader as a youngster when he was doing his homework while his dad held meetings with political supporters.
However, it is Mr Benn’s remarks against Syrian intervention which are likely to cause the most concern in Downing Street.'
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Assad used chemical weapons. That is a line we in the west let Saddam cross in the 1980s, and that mistake helped contribute to the mess we are in now.
(It's surprising that the left, who were rightly condemning Thatcher and the west for ignoring the use of chemical weapons by Saddam, are now ignoring the use of those weapons by Assad).
And then there are the other crimes his regime has committed.
As for your last paragraph: Daesh already had a base in Iraq before Assad's latest troubles began.
But leaving all the above aside, Assad no longer has the moral authority, manpower or capability to manage the country alone. He;s only surviving because of the Iranian and Hezbollah troops, and he is their, and Putin's puppet.
It looks like the days of the UK having a surplus on income from foreign investments might be over for good:
' The UK’s international investment position abroad (outward FDI position) decreased from £1,024.6 billion to £1,015.4 billion between 2013 and 2014, the lowest level recorded since 2009 (£981.5 billion). The 2014 estimate also marked the third consecutive annual decline since 2011 (£1,090.9 billion).
The international investment position in the UK by overseas residents and businesses (inward FDI positions) at the end of 2014 reached £1,034.3 billion, up from £910.3 billion in 2013. The level of inward investment in 2014 was the highest on record, having continued to follow an upward trend in recent decades. '
If the UK runs a permanent trade deficit and a permanent tourism deficit and has a deficit on government transactions (overseas aid, EU contributions etc) and has a deficit on investments then something will have to change and likely have to change soon. That something will involve a big reduction in living standards.
Agreed. Of all the media, only William Keegan in the Observer seems to be pointing out how truly poor UK position is. At some point there will be a reckoning. Presumably with an attack on the pound. Where will interest rates go then?
As I've said before on here, I personally can't see Osborne getting to 2020 election without some kind of recession or even deeper economic crisis. But who knows. Forecasting is a mug's game.
A Tory cllr of my acquaintance who claims to know about financial matters had long stated 2018 is going to be when this all comes crashing down on whoever was in power by then. I'm sure that's a guess like any other, but it feels right.
kLE4..So a drop of their majority from14k to 10k and that is seen as them doing well ..stunning victory..well its a view I suppose.. Just seems like desperate spinning to me..and everyone I have discussed it with at work..which is at the BBC , that means all of them are Labour supporters..
I have £50 on Liang Wenbo returning £376 if he wins the UK Snooker in York
I have £30 on David grace returning £1390 if he wins the same event
They play each other n the Semi Final at 1pm so one will reach the final.
For my £80 Cash Out is only offering £120
How can i best improve on this?
The problem is you're not that far ahead of the game, as whoever wins will be massive outsider in the final
You're on at about 6/1 the pair and they're now about 4/1
Strange the draw panned out like that isn't it? I haven't followed this at all, just looked on betfair
My advice is to hope Grace wins the semi!
Indeed, my semi is first so should i wait for 2nd semi as well
Why do you say 6/1 BTW?
I'm still in bed and only did the numbers in my head! but if you're on one at 13/2 and the other at 45/1, you're on the pair combined at just worse than 6s I think, prob more like 11/2
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Assad used chemical weapons. That is a line we in the west let Saddam cross in the 1980s, and that mistake helped contribute to the mess we are in now.
(It's surprising that the left, who were rightly condemning Thatcher and the west for ignoring the use of chemical weapons by Saddam, are now ignoring the use of those weapons by Assad).
And then there are the other crimes his regime has committed.
As for your last paragraph: Daesh already had a base in Iraq before Assad's latest troubles began.
But leaving all the above aside, Assad no longer has the moral authority, manpower or capability to manage the country alone. He;s only surviving because of the Iranian and Hezbollah troops, and he is their, and Putin's puppet.
But Assad is a friend of Putin. Who is in charge of Russia. Which means he must be a lefty. Hence we should support him.
We talk to terrorists in the end, yes, only idiots pretend we don't.
Perhaps the kurds and the Yazidis should have 'talked' to ISIS earlier.
Talk about a one way conversation...
Talked to a Kurdish friend of a work colleague yesterday. He pretty much killed the conversation when he said what he (and he claimed alot of Kurds) saw as solution to the ISIS issue.
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Absolutely right. It was the Saudis and the Gulf states who fomented the uprising against Assad as they saw his secularism and his moderate Alawite strand of Shia Islam as an affront to their beliefs. And of course we - the West - will do absolutely anything to support the Saudis whilst ignoring their own crimes.
Do you have any evidence for that? It was the people on the streets that started the uprising. They only wanted the release of political prisoners and democratic reforms.
So: where's your evidence that Saudi and the Gulf States fomented the uprising? Especially as Saudi was having its own difficulties with the Arab Spring at the time.
''Unliek you I can look at a bigger picture than what Cameron wants and I find his plans inadequate and dangerous. It will only make the UK more likely to be bombed and all just to salve his embarrassment.''
They are going to bomb us anyway Malcolm. Look at what happened to the poor Yazidis. They didn;t bomb anybody.
The Yazidis had learnt to cower in the back of the bus, after centuries of persecution. Bit like Christians in Eygpt. Interestingly, there is a fair chunk of the surviving Yazidi who are adopting a Sikh style response to the attack on them, since cowering at the back of the bus has failed.
IS will talk when they are no longer IS. At the moment they are, and they want to fight to the last man or woman for their beliefs, Any discussion now is silly.
It's likely that is what it will take.
Our discussions would be a brief as those of the Yazidi.
So seven months after Meacher polled a 14,000 majority his successor polls a 10,000 majority..and that is considered a victory...more like a plummet to me..
Basic arithmetic says otherwise
Actually basic percentages say otherwise - on the arithmetic he is correct. But we know that the don't do good sums in Scotland - how would you like your oil price drop? Numbers or percentages - pretty funny either way.
I'm sure the 65,000 people who've lost their jobs in the O&G sector find it hilarious. Any word of the £200 billion oil & gas boom that Cameron promised after a No vote?
We talk to terrorists in the end, yes, only idiots pretend we don't.
Perhaps the kurds and the Yazidis should have 'talked' to ISIS earlier.
Talk about a one way conversation...
Talked to a Kurdish friend of a work colleague yesterday. He pretty much killed the conversation when he said what he (and he claimed alot of Kurds) saw as solution to the ISIS issue.
The Kurds should be rewarded for their courage and heroism by finally getting their own sovereign state, nearly 100 years after WW1.
kLE4..So a drop of their majority from14k to 10 =k and hat is seen as them doing well ..stunning victory..well its a view I suppose.. Just seems like desperate spinning to me..and everyone I have discussed it with at work..which is at the BBC , that means all of them are Labour supporters..
The only way to maintain that numerical majority at a by election would be a massive increase in lab vote share, disproportionate numbers of those not voting now when they did in May being non labour.
Regardless, you only have to look at what predictions there were, which were almost all that the vote share would fall, perhaps significantly, and swing to someone else, and that did not happen.
Numerical lead can be important. But why would anyone expect a by election to have the same turnout as a GE, which is what you seem to, which is what would make it a useful comparison here.
As for desperate spinning...for whom? Do you think a bunch of people who are not labour supporters, like malcolmg, from across the political spectrum, are trying to make labour look good? Does that seem likely, do you think?
Nothing Corbyn said or did hastened the end of the IRA's attempts to bomb Northern Ireland into a union with the Republic against the wishes of the majority of its population.
Arguably - by giving political succour to an organisation which had a two pronged strategy - bullets and ballots (three if you're McMao with 'bombs') - he delayed peace in Northern Ireland - encouraging the IRA to think their strategy was working.
Meanwhile, one of my University friends was blown to pieces outside Harrods.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Neither Mugabe nor Gaddafi turned out well.
But, to answer your question, there is often nothing that one can reasonably offer the terrorist. In the past, both Corbyn and McDonnell supported coercing Northern Ireland's inhabitants into joining the Irish Republic against their will.
That was something that no British government could reasonably concede. A truce became possible once the IRA was prepared to tolerate Northern Ireland's position in the UK.
Exactly so. It was when most of those people stopped attacking us and being terrorists that any sort of peace was achieved. IS have shown no sign of wanting anything other than the total surrender and elimination of their opponents and enemies, as defined by them, which seem to include everyone who is not wholeheartedly with them. That could not be said of Mandela and to suggest otherwise is beyond crass.
I missed the bit where Corbyn was talking to ISIS.
He says we should. And given that he and McDonnell say that their links with the IRA were to advance the peace process, why are they not coming up with their own proposals to talk to IS or even going over there to do so? Corbyn also says that all wars end when the opposing sides talk to each other. Not so. To take one obvious example, WW2 didn't. Unconditional surrender was the aim and unconditional surrender is what the Allies got.
IS have never shown - by words or deeds - any desire whatever for any sort of dialogue. So the demands for talks and understanding their grievances and dialogue shows, at best, a woeful misunderstanding of the nature of the organisation we are dealing with. Corbyn et al are taking an analogue approach in a digital age.
We talk to terrorists in the end, yes, only idiots pretend we don't.
Perhaps the kurds and the Yazidis should have 'talked' to ISIS earlier.
Talk about a one way conversation...
Talked to a Kurdish friend of a work colleague yesterday. He pretty much killed the conversation when he said what he (and he claimed alot of Kurds) saw as solution to the ISIS issue.
We talk to terrorists in the end, yes, only idiots pretend we don't.
Perhaps the kurds and the Yazidis should have 'talked' to ISIS earlier.
Talk about a one way conversation...
Talked to a Kurdish friend of a work colleague yesterday. He pretty much killed the conversation when he said what he (and he claimed alot of Kurds) saw as solution to the ISIS issue.
The Kurds should be rewarded for their courage and heroism by finally getting their own sovereign state, nearly 100 years after WW1.
Should, but surely won't. Entirely autonomous zone Iraq the peak or them?
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Assad used chemical weapons. That is a line we in the west let Saddam cross in the 1980s, and that mistake helped contribute to the mess we are in now.
(It's surprising that the left, who were rightly condemning Thatcher and the west for ignoring the use of chemical weapons by Saddam, are now ignoring the use of those weapons by Assad).
And then there are the other crimes his regime has committed.
As for your last paragraph: Daesh already had a base in Iraq before Assad's latest troubles began.
But leaving all the above aside, Assad no longer has the moral authority, manpower or capability to manage the country alone. He;s only surviving because of the Iranian and Hezbollah troops, and he is their, and Putin's puppet.
The Saudis are doing just as nasty things in Yemen. They have previously used chemical weapons against the Bedouin and are now accused of using them in Yemen. They are just as guilty of acts of war against their own people and their neighbours as Syria and yet we ignore them and regard them as allies.
I am afraid trying to pick out one country as being uniquely bad or evil in the Middle East is a mugs game.
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
The big deal will be when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1 comes on line. If it can deliver the drop in the price of Lithium batteries projected, then a cheap electric car - 300 mile range for $25k new - will be possible.
The question then is at what point the electric cars eating into the car market mean that net demand for petrol world wide *drops* on a sustained basis for the foresable future. That is, the increase in electric cars becomes bigger than the increase in car usage.
Ukip retreats from claim that Oldham poll was bent.
They managed to turn an embarrassment into a disaster.....and next time they cry 'bent poll' no one will believe them.....
I wonder who Farage got the idea from ?
' Lady Warsi has blamed electoral fraud for the Tories' failure to secure an overall majority at this May's election – and claimed that Labour "absolutely" benefited from the alleged fraud.
The Tory chairman told tomorrow's New Statesman: "[There were] at least three seats where we lost, where we didn't gain the seat, based on electoral fraud. Now, could we have planned for that in the campaign? Absolutely not … "It is predominantly within the Asian community. I have to look back and say we didn't do well in those communities, but was there something over and above that we could have done? Well, actually not, if there is going to be voter fraud."
Asked to reveal which seats she felt the Tories had lost due to alleged fraud, she said: "I think it would be wrong to start identifying them." '
I wanted UKIP to win in Oldham as I thought that would hasten JC's departure. But having seen the leadership's reaction to defeat and heard about the White Christmas stunt it's clear I was wrong and it's good they finished a distant second.
..............
.
From what I have read over the years on here , you have never wanted Labour to win under Brown or Milliband. You voted Lib Dem and was happy with coalition hardly effective opposition. There is a competent party in Scotland the SNP to oppose the government. However you were against them to.
I voted Labour in May. I don't support the break-up of the UK. You're right though, I don't want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. He is an economically illiterate apologist for murder and terrorism. I am pretty confident my wish will come true.
What is with this word "terrorism" that the Brits are so hung up about ?
Mandela was a "terrorist" until he acquired the position of the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
We [ or, Aparthied South Africa ] negotiated with him and the ANC.
Kenyatta was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Kenya.
Mugabe was a "terrorist". We recognised him as the leader of Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi was a "terrorist". We then shook his hand in a Beduin tent for oil. Finally, we created circumstances to have him butchered.
Martin McGuinness was a "terrorist". He is now the stable force in the Northern Ireland government. The Unionists are the unstable lot.
In the end , we talk to all of them. Why not earlier ? Sometimes it could save lives.
Two questions:-
1. Do you think IS would like to talk to us? 2. What do you think IS would like to talk to us about?
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
All very interesting, no doubt. But you haven't answered my two questions.
We talk to terrorists in the end, yes, only idiots pretend we don't.
Perhaps the kurds and the Yazidis should have 'talked' to ISIS earlier.
Talk about a one way conversation...
Talked to a Kurdish friend of a work colleague yesterday. He pretty much killed the conversation when he said what he (and he claimed alot of Kurds) saw as solution to the ISIS issue.
The Kurds should be rewarded for their courage and heroism by finally getting their own sovereign state, nearly 100 years after WW1.
What the guys said was that an ISIS fighters caught should be shot out of hand. The civilians living in ISIS areas who were Sunni arabs should be expelled. Their homes and lands given to Kurds and their friends.
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
The big deal will be when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1 comes on line. If it can deliver the drop in the price of Lithium batteries projected, then a cheap electric car - 300 mile range for $25k new - will be possible.
The question then is at what point the electric cars eating into the car market mean that net demand for petrol world wide *drops* on a sustained basis for the foresable future. That is, the increase in electric cars becomes bigger than the increase in car usage.
But the PB posters are not balanced but predominately right wing English and Tory. Nothing wrong with that. You would have to have serious human difficulties to support the "White Christmas" party led by Farrage and serious intellectual ones to support the Fib/Dems led by that walking disaster Farron. Given that this site is never likely to be stuffed with Corbynestas then that would only leave the new Bennites and I think it will take more than one well delivered but badly argued, speech to establish that.
I had the pleasure of working on a project with Peter Oborne some years ago in London and I think he is a fine man and a good, principled journalist. That's why he got pushed out of the Daily Telegraph - a sewage machine which makes Momentum look democratic and diverse.
Finally I do think that one reason the SNP are totally dominant in Scotland is that they are regarded as competent in Government. For example Salmond in office very quickly took the decision to replace the Forth Bridge - a decision that Tory and Labour/Fib Government's had ducked for twenty years.
Yesterday I bumped into our local UKIP parish councillor, who is on the sensible UKIP wing (if there is such a thing). He was wearing one of those flat caps, as per Oldham. He said he had bought it recently because he needed a new hat. Is this a) evidence that UKIP activists all come from a particular demographic b) evidence of UKIP group think c) evidence of a cult of UKIP leader worship c) some sort of sinister take over of UKIP by flat cap manufacturers
There is something strange going on. The chance of four MEPs all wearing flat caps on the same day is slim. I don't think they are all trying to copy Farage as you would also expect to see more "Farage coats" and one of the flat cap wearers, Patrick O'Flynn dislikes him. Maybe they are really fashionable now.
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Absolutely right. It was the Saudis and the Gulf states who fomented the uprising against Assad as they saw his secularism and his moderate Alawite strand of Shia Islam as an affront to their beliefs. And of course we - the West - will do absolutely anything to support the Saudis whilst ignoring their own crimes.
Do you have any evidence for that? It was the people on the streets that started the uprising. They only wanted the release of political prisoners and democratic reforms.
So: where's your evidence that Saudi and the Gulf States fomented the uprising? Especially as Saudi was having its own difficulties with the Arab Spring at the time.
What happened was that the nutters *from* the Gulf states spent alot of money on backing their fellow nutters in Syria etc. Because they didn't like the religiously neutral aspects of the demonstrations.
The said gulf state nutters have a "deal" of sorts with their home governments, where they don't make trouble at home, only abroad. But they still hate their governments. Bit like the Arnie line about killing the guy last....
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Assad used chemical weapons. That is a line we in the west let Saddam cross in the 1980s, and that mistake helped contribute to the mess we are in now.
(It's surprising that the left, who were rightly condemning Thatcher and the west for ignoring the use of chemical weapons by Saddam, are now ignoring the use of those weapons by Assad).
And then there are the other crimes his regime has committed.
As for your last paragraph: Daesh already had a base in Iraq before Assad's latest troubles began.
But leaving all the above aside, Assad no longer has the moral authority, manpower or capability to manage the country alone. He;s only surviving because of the Iranian and Hezbollah troops, and he is their, and Putin's puppet.
The Saudis are doing just as nasty things in Yemen. They have previously used chemical weapons against the Bedouin and are now accused of using them in Yemen. They are just as guilty of acts of war against their own people and their neighbours as Syria and yet we ignore them and regard them as allies.
I am afraid trying to pick out one country as being uniquely bad or evil in the Middle East is a mugs game.
I'd like to see some sources for claims that Saudi have used chemical weapons.
As usual a good piece from David but it is surely hard to take the threat of UKIP to Labour in the north seriously after the Oldham result. It is hard to imagine a backdrop less propitious to Labour than has existed over the last week or so.
I also have reservations about the difficulties of an SDP II if it had sufficient members in the HoC. Would they not get short money for a start?
I did some head-scratching before writing the piece because of UKIP's poor showing. The first thing to say is that yes, if Oldham is typical then UKIP's threat to Labour is overstated. Also, I'm not predicting here as such, more laying out reasons why what might be seen as an extremely unlikely outcome is a lot more probable than might be initially though (in no small part because of the Oldham result).
There are a few reasons why I think UKIP performed poorly. Firstly, the ethnic make-up of the seat was not that favourable to them, though this can be overstated: there were still a lot of WWC voters who should be inclined to UKIP and clearly many of them still went for Labour while relatively few switched to UKIP. Secondly, Labour had an extremely strong local candidate (who assiduously kept Corbyn's face off his leaflets). It's hard to tell how much of Labour's support was party and how much was candidate but those sceptical of Corbyn had good reason to overlook their concerns in the knowledge that they were not voting for a Corbynite candidate. Thirdly, Labour seem to have campaigned extremely effectively on postal votes, though again, that's more a reason for Labour's high vote, not UKIP's low one.
That said, the key political event of this parliament will be the EU referendum. If UKIP cannot make hay out of that, with a split Tory party and Lab and LD (and SNP) for In, then they don't deserve a seat at the top table. Everything is set up for them and this is their chance of a lifetime.
Re SDP2, yes, a sizable parliamentary party would get Short money but what about members, big donors, campaigning information and so on? Starting a national party from scratch is an immense ask. There's then the question of whether they too look to do a deal with the Lib Dems. There are good tactical reasons (the same ones, in fact) for going down the same road as the 1980s but then won't that just lead to the same destination? If so, why not cut out the middleman and just defect? Except that for all the LDs need revitalising, to accept, say, 30 ex-Lab MPs (never mind more) would swamp them at the top end and be in effect a reverse takeover. But if they compete against each other then they risk both failing. On the other hand, if they've been booted out of the PLP, or are about to be, what do they have to lose?
Step by step. Why have we made a pariah out of Assad ? I can think of , at least, 20 leaders world-wide who also butcher their people. Saudi's behead more people than Daesh. They are indiscriminately killing people in Yemen. Even the Pakistanis refused to work with them there despite the fact it is Pakistani soldiers who "man" the Saudi army.
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
Absolutely right. It was the Saudis and the Gulf states who fomented the uprising against Assad as they saw his secularism and his moderate Alawite strand of Shia Islam as an affront to their beliefs. And of course we - the West - will do absolutely anything to support the Saudis whilst ignoring their own crimes.
Do you have any evidence for that? It was the people on the streets that started the uprising. They only wanted the release of political prisoners and democratic reforms.
So: where's your evidence that Saudi and the Gulf States fomented the uprising? Especially as Saudi was having its own difficulties with the Arab Spring at the time.
Read 'Syria Burning' by Charles Glass. One of the most respected and well informed Middle Eastern journalists of the past 3 decades.
"One way to view the fanatic Islamicization of the Syrian revolution after 2011 is that it was the inevitable form of a rebellion inspired and financed by Saudi Wahhabism that sought not democracy but the elimination of rule by Alawite “infidels.” "
"So seven months after Meacher polled a 14,000 majority his successor polls a 10,000 majority..and that is considered a victory...more like a plummet to me.."
Please let us know, on the back of a postage stamp, which other by-elections do you know where the winning party actually increased its number of votes.
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
The big deal will be when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1 comes on line. If it can deliver the drop in the price of Lithium batteries projected, then a cheap electric car - 300 mile range for $25k new - will be possible.
The question then is at what point the electric cars eating into the car market mean that net demand for petrol world wide *drops* on a sustained basis for the foresable future. That is, the increase in electric cars becomes bigger than the increase in car usage.
There's also the idea that electric cars will be able to help load balance renewables: batteries of cars not in use would be able to soak up the excess and give some back during low periods.
It'd be interesting to see how such a distributed storage effort would work in practice.
We talk to terrorists in the end, yes, only idiots pretend we don't.
Perhaps the kurds and the Yazidis should have 'talked' to ISIS earlier.
Talk about a one way conversation...
Talked to a Kurdish friend of a work colleague yesterday. He pretty much killed the conversation when he said what he (and he claimed alot of Kurds) saw as solution to the ISIS issue.
The Kurds should be rewarded for their courage and heroism by finally getting their own sovereign state, nearly 100 years after WW1.
What the guys said was that an ISIS fighters caught should be shot out of hand. The civilians living in ISIS areas who were Sunni arabs should be expelled. Their homes and lands given to Kurds and their friends.
The Kurds have a bit of previous along those lines:
Mr. Herdson, indeed, but Brown showed that stubborn inertia can withstand immense pressure.
True, and that is one reason why I think Labocalpyse is quite possible: Corbyn may well stay there until 2020. However, if he does go I'd say it's a lot more likely that it will be a resignation following sustained and massive pressure of events than via a formal internal electoral challenge.
IS will talk when they are no longer IS. At the moment they are, and they want to fight to the last man or woman for their beliefs, Any discussion now is silly.
It's likely that is what it will take.
Our discussions would be a brief as those of the Yazidi.
Quite.
How do you deal with an enemy that quite simply is more than happy to die for the cause and where surrender or captivity is not words in their lexicon. We have of course faced similar before with Japan in WW2 and that had to be resolved in quite a drastic way to avoid many many more deaths trying the alternative.
On this occasion though I am not convinced even that would work as this lot wouldn't care about the total destruction that might result through failure to come to a table and discuss any peaceful settlement. I don't believe they are even interested in any peaceful settlement and I am not sure one could even be reached.
There reasoning is to achieve a pure Islamic state and then to advance that idealism across the world as the pure religion for all. Nothing else matters a jot which makes these people even more difficult to deal with let alone reason with.
As usual a good piece from David but it is surely hard to take the threat of UKIP to Labour in the north seriously after the Oldham result. It is hard to imagine a backdrop less propitious to Labour than has existed over the last week or so.
I also have reservations about the difficulties of an SDP II if it had sufficient members in the HoC. Would they not get short money for a start?
Re SDP2, yes, a sizable parliamentary party would get Short money but what about members, big donors, campaigning information and so on? Starting a national party from scratch is an immense ask. There's then the question of whether they too look to do a deal with the Lib Dems. There are good tactical reasons (the same ones, in fact) for going down the same road as the 1980s but then won't that just lead to the same destination? If so, why not cut out the middleman and just defect? Except that for all the LDs need revitalising, to accept, say, 30 ex-Lab MPs (never mind more) would swamp them at the top end and be in effect a reverse takeover. But if they compete against each other then they risk both failing. On the other hand, if they've been booted out of the PLP, or are about to be, what do they have to lose?
Banks such as Goldman Sachs predict they [oil prices] could fall further to as low as $20 per barrel as the world produces more oil than it consumes and runs out of capacity to store the excess.
There was some comment about the North Sea fields going out of production.
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
The big deal will be when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1 comes on line. If it can deliver the drop in the price of Lithium batteries projected, then a cheap electric car - 300 mile range for $25k new - will be possible.
The question then is at what point the electric cars eating into the car market mean that net demand for petrol world wide *drops* on a sustained basis for the foresable future. That is, the increase in electric cars becomes bigger than the increase in car usage.
Hydrogen powered cars are electric cars. With a fun battery. In all the wrong ways.
For example, you can't park a hydrogen power car in a multi storied car park while you go on holiday - hydrogen boils off all slowly, continuously. You can use a catalytic grid to "burn" the boil off, but they can go wrong. After a couple of weeks the tank is empty....
Same with parking in a garage at home.
Filling up is fun to. About the same time as to recharge an electric car via a Tesla Supercharger - you can't pump deep cryogens fast.
Plus you need a battery in the car anyway for regenerative braking, and instant start - fuel cells don't like stopping and starting suddenly, so you use the battery while it is warming up.
Plus when you look at the fuel cycle, converting electricity to hydrogen and back again, vs storing in a battery is less efficient...
Comments
How do you negotiate when the other side's starting position is "Convert or die"?
The Labour man was a very strong, well known local candidate with a track-record - that's very hard to trump. Talking national broad brush values in a by-election seems wrongheaded to me, I'm wondering if this method of campaigning is the real issue.
It was unfortunate though that he now is not a member of the NEC as councillors Rep and as now an MP has been removed by default. It will be interesting to see who takes his place unless that has been already decided but recent events would point to a Corbynistas type rather than a centralist or moderate left winger.
When caught flat out lying and trying to be smart , you begin to bluster and throw more insults to deflect from the obvious initial point , you lied and tried a cheap shot , thinking you are real smart when you are not as smart as you think.
You are the one who tried to claim a % increase in the majority was not true by using the numbers above, when facts show it is an increased % majority.
When you are caught lying , just admit it or retire and lick your wounds.
But, to answer your question, there is often nothing that one can reasonably offer the terrorist. In the past, both Corbyn and McDonnell supported coercing Northern Ireland's inhabitants into joining the Irish Republic against their will.
That was something that no British government could reasonably concede. A truce became possible once the IRA was prepared to tolerate Northern Ireland's position in the UK.
1. Do you think IS would like to talk to us?
2. What do you think IS would like to talk to us about?
You will find the sons of Taliban leaders will be studying in English public schools in no time and British banks will be taking their deposits. Some things do not change.
Gaddafi was such a big terrorist that his son was financing the LSE !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_by-election_records#Turnout_increased_from_general_election
Since the War there have been 16 with increased turnout from the preceding General Election.
Four have been caused by assassination - all the IRA, 24 accidental deaths (mostly car crashes), 10 suicides, 19 scandals and 6 to make way for someone else....
How would you negotiate with them?
e) he's hiding the evidence that he's lost his hair in addition to his shirt after betting on MikeK's prediction of 102 UKIP MPs.
Nothing Corbyn said or did hastened the end of the IRA's attempts to bomb Northern Ireland into a union with the Republic against the wishes of the majority of its population. Likewise, his support of an irganisation that advocated the killing of British soldiers in Iraq and which blames ISIS murders on the West will not end the violence in the middle east ir attacks elsewhere.
You are cross.
And wrong.
As usual.
I'm happy to let our posts speak for themselves.
Since you are hard of learning:
Majority = number of votes
Share = percentage of votes
Only the share went up. The majority went down - but as I've explained previously, thats a misleading way to look at it.....
Assad is the only secular leader in that region. We should have been supporting him from the beginning. We got carried away with the Arab spring [ Al-Sisi the murderer is no doubt a great follower of the Arab Spring. He is even invited to No.10 ] Our 70000 include great democrats like the Al-Nusra.
If we had not weakened Assad, Daesh would not found time and place to establish a base thanks to money from the Gulf, our friends !
This is why the policy of Momentum and STW in taking over the workings of Labour now that its got Corbyn as leader is so clever and practicable. Labours core vote will hold up and they gain control of a major political party.
Can anyone help please.
I have £50 on Liang Wenbo returning £376 if he wins the UK Snooker in York
I have £30 on David grace returning £1390 if he wins the same event
They play each other n the Semi Final at 1pm so one will reach the final.
For my £80 Cash Out is only offering £120
How can i best improve on this?
OPEC will not give up until Shale oil production is stopped.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
Unliek you I can look at a bigger picture than what Cameron wants and I find his plans inadequate and dangerous. It will only make the UK more likely to be bombed and all just to salve his embarrassment.
Stick your false assertions where the sun don't shine.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
OPEC will lose. All they have done over the last year or so is driven down the cost of shale gas/oil production. Changes that would have taken years to improve technology and drive down costs have been achieved in months because of the pressures from the low oil price.
Saudi lost this fight the day it started.
I actually agreed with Surbiton in the following post and even gave a good valid reason for why the vote was so strong. You yourself the day after abused a postter for giving "an opinion" having complained the day before of someone doing just that. I was going to all you out on it but what's the point it simply would have been met with a further tirade of abuse and bile. You still never provided any links to your "liar" statement by the way. Not unexpectedly.
I have decided simply not to engage with you on anything because of your attitude, arguments and treatment of just about all other posters on here which is is straight out of the 1st form and most unpleasant. Let's agree on one thing then you don't reply or read my posts and I will give you a similar courtesy.
Awaits incoming bile.
It's far too early to be so grumpy.
It cannot always happen earlier because if you indicate you're willing to talk openly before they think they have to, it only makes them bolder, it has to be a long process s both sides accept its the only way, for the time being at least. With the ira and others including today's murderous nutters, pretending they want to talk when they don't, outside our capitulation, is just unhelpful. Lock yourself into a peace they don't yet want and when you do try to talk you get nothing.
' The UK’s international investment position abroad (outward FDI position) decreased from £1,024.6 billion to £1,015.4 billion between 2013 and 2014, the lowest level recorded since 2009 (£981.5 billion). The 2014 estimate also marked the third consecutive annual decline since 2011 (£1,090.9 billion).
The international investment position in the UK by overseas residents and businesses (inward FDI positions) at the end of 2014 reached £1,034.3 billion, up from £910.3 billion in 2013. The level of inward investment in 2014 was the highest on record, having continued to follow an upward trend in recent decades. '
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_426348.pdf
If the UK runs a permanent trade deficit and a permanent tourism deficit and has a deficit on government transactions (overseas aid, EU contributions etc) and has a deficit on investments then something will have to change and likely have to change soon. That something will involve a big reduction in living standards.
They are going to bomb us anyway Malcolm. Look at what happened to the poor Yazidis. They didn;t bomb anybody.
You're on at about 6/1 the pair and they're now about 4/1
Strange the draw panned out like that isn't it? I haven't followed this at all, just looked on betfair
My advice is to hope Grace wins the semi!
Perhaps the kurds and the Yazidis should have 'talked' to ISIS earlier.
Talk about a one way conversation...
Once the finalists have been determined look for the best odds on your non betting finalist to win and assess again.
As I've said before on here, I personally can't see Osborne getting to 2020 election without some kind of recession or even deeper economic crisis. But who knows. Forecasting is a mug's game.
Labour increases Vote Share in Oldham by-election as ‘upset’ Nigel Farage cries foul
But:
Labour increases majority in Oldham by-election as ‘upset’ Nigel Farage cries foul
Or did you not read that before embarking on your embarrassing thrashing about.....
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
Saudia amongst others will face budget problems at some point though.
'Mr Benn, who supports military intervention to protect civilians, said he did not think the Government was planning to come forward with a proposal to extend air strikes from Iraq into Syria.
But asked if he thought they should, Mr Benn said: “No.” He added: “They have to come up with an overall plan, which they have not done. I think the focus for now is finding a peaceful solution to the civil war.”
The shadow Foreign Secretary added: “The most useful contribution we can make is to support as a nation the peace talks that have started. That is the single most important thing we can do.”
Mr Benn’s intervention came in a wide-ranging interview in which he said he was “certain” that Jeremy Corbyn could become Prime Minister in 2020, and revealed that he first met the Labour leader as a youngster when he was doing his homework while his dad held meetings with political supporters.
However, it is Mr Benn’s remarks against Syrian intervention which are likely to cause the most concern in Downing Street.'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hilary-benn-shadow-foreign-secretary-says-labour-wont-back-air-strikes-on-syria-a6734651.html
Indeed, my semi is first so should i wait for 2nd semi as well
Why do you say 6/1 BTW?
(It's surprising that the left, who were rightly condemning Thatcher and the west for ignoring the use of chemical weapons by Saddam, are now ignoring the use of those weapons by Assad).
And then there are the other crimes his regime has committed.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/05/syria-forces-war-crime-barrel-bombs-aleppo-amnesty-report
http://www.newsweek.com/plea-action-gruesome-photos-smuggled-syria-display-un-313766
As for your last paragraph: Daesh already had a base in Iraq before Assad's latest troubles began.
But leaving all the above aside, Assad no longer has the moral authority, manpower or capability to manage the country alone. He;s only surviving because of the Iranian and Hezbollah troops, and he is their, and Putin's puppet.
Ukip retreats from claim that Oldham poll was bent.
The public are not well served when political debate is dominated by bullying & name-calling. My letter to @thetimes https://t.co/i75QtthVc1
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hilary-benn-shadow-foreign-secretary-says-labour-wont-back-air-strikes-on-syria-a6734651.html
So: where's your evidence that Saudi and the Gulf States fomented the uprising? Especially as Saudi was having its own difficulties with the Arab Spring at the time.
Apocalypse Mao!
IS will talk when they are no longer IS. At the moment they are, and they want to fight to the last man or woman for their beliefs, Any discussion now is silly.
It's likely that is what it will take.
Our discussions would be a brief as those of the Yazidi.
I'm on!
ps, is this Grace fellow any good? I've just bet quite a large amount on him.
Any word of the £200 billion oil & gas boom that Cameron promised after a No vote?
Regardless, you only have to look at what predictions there were, which were almost all that the vote share would fall, perhaps significantly, and swing to someone else, and that did not happen.
Numerical lead can be important. But why would anyone expect a by election to have the same turnout as a GE, which is what you seem to, which is what would make it a useful comparison here.
As for desperate spinning...for whom? Do you think a bunch of people who are not labour supporters, like malcolmg, from across the political spectrum, are trying to make labour look good? Does that seem likely, do you think?
Meanwhile, one of my University friends was blown to pieces outside Harrods.
He says we should. And given that he and McDonnell say that their links with the IRA were to advance the peace process, why are they not coming up with their own proposals to talk to IS or even going over there to do so? Corbyn also says that all wars end when the opposing sides talk to each other. Not so. To take one obvious example, WW2 didn't. Unconditional surrender was the aim and unconditional surrender is what the Allies got.
IS have never shown - by words or deeds - any desire whatever for any sort of dialogue. So the demands for talks and understanding their grievances and dialogue shows, at best, a woeful misunderstanding of the nature of the organisation we are dealing with. Corbyn et al are taking an analogue approach in a digital age.
Loads of comments under article shaming the sub-ed for the headline.
What was his solution?
I am afraid trying to pick out one country as being uniquely bad or evil in the Middle East is a mugs game.
In the meantime, watch the inexorable rise and rise of renewables. China and India have joined the game with the zeal of converts ! From Jan 1, New Delhi will only permit cars with odd and even number plates on alternate days.
The big deal will be when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1 comes on line. If it can deliver the drop in the price of Lithium batteries projected, then a cheap electric car - 300 mile range for $25k new - will be possible.
The question then is at what point the electric cars eating into the car market mean that net demand for petrol world wide *drops* on a sustained basis for the foresable future. That is, the increase in electric cars becomes bigger than the increase in car usage.
' Lady Warsi has blamed electoral fraud for the Tories' failure to secure an overall majority at this May's election – and claimed that Labour "absolutely" benefited from the alleged fraud.
The Tory chairman told tomorrow's New Statesman: "[There were] at least three seats where we lost, where we didn't gain the seat, based on electoral fraud. Now, could we have planned for that in the campaign? Absolutely not … "It is predominantly within the Asian community. I have to look back and say we didn't do well in those communities, but was there something over and above that we could have done? Well, actually not, if there is going to be voter fraud."
Asked to reveal which seats she felt the Tories had lost due to alleged fraud, she said: "I think it would be wrong to start identifying them." '
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/sep/29/lady-warsi-british-press-anti-islam
The question then is at what point the electric cars eating into the car market mean that net demand for petrol world wide *drops* on a sustained basis for the foresable future. That is, the increase in electric cars becomes bigger than the increase in car usage.
But the PB posters are not balanced but predominately right wing English and Tory. Nothing wrong with that. You would have to have serious human difficulties to support the "White Christmas" party led by Farrage and serious intellectual ones to support the Fib/Dems led by that walking disaster Farron. Given that this site is never likely to be stuffed with Corbynestas then that would only leave the new Bennites and I think it will take more than one well delivered but badly argued, speech to establish that.
I had the pleasure of working on a project with Peter Oborne some years ago in London and I think he is a fine man and a good, principled journalist. That's why he got pushed out of the Daily Telegraph - a sewage machine which makes Momentum look democratic and diverse.
Finally I do think that one reason the SNP are totally dominant in Scotland is that they are regarded as competent in Government. For example Salmond in office very quickly took the decision to replace the Forth Bridge - a decision that Tory and Labour/Fib Government's had ducked for twenty years.
The said gulf state nutters have a "deal" of sorts with their home governments, where they don't make trouble at home, only abroad. But they still hate their governments. Bit like the Arnie line about killing the guy last....
There are a few reasons why I think UKIP performed poorly. Firstly, the ethnic make-up of the seat was not that favourable to them, though this can be overstated: there were still a lot of WWC voters who should be inclined to UKIP and clearly many of them still went for Labour while relatively few switched to UKIP. Secondly, Labour had an extremely strong local candidate (who assiduously kept Corbyn's face off his leaflets). It's hard to tell how much of Labour's support was party and how much was candidate but those sceptical of Corbyn had good reason to overlook their concerns in the knowledge that they were not voting for a Corbynite candidate. Thirdly, Labour seem to have campaigned extremely effectively on postal votes, though again, that's more a reason for Labour's high vote, not UKIP's low one.
That said, the key political event of this parliament will be the EU referendum. If UKIP cannot make hay out of that, with a split Tory party and Lab and LD (and SNP) for In, then they don't deserve a seat at the top table. Everything is set up for them and this is their chance of a lifetime.
Re SDP2, yes, a sizable parliamentary party would get Short money but what about members, big donors, campaigning information and so on? Starting a national party from scratch is an immense ask. There's then the question of whether they too look to do a deal with the Lib Dems. There are good tactical reasons (the same ones, in fact) for going down the same road as the 1980s but then won't that just lead to the same destination? If so, why not cut out the middleman and just defect? Except that for all the LDs need revitalising, to accept, say, 30 ex-Lab MPs (never mind more) would swamp them at the top end and be in effect a reverse takeover. But if they compete against each other then they risk both failing. On the other hand, if they've been booted out of the PLP, or are about to be, what do they have to lose?
"One way to view the fanatic Islamicization of the Syrian revolution after 2011 is that it was the inevitable form of a rebellion inspired and financed by Saudi Wahhabism that sought not democracy but the elimination of rule by Alawite “infidels.” "
The UK Snooker is at S/F stage
the 2 players in sf1 are 6.8 and 22
One will reach final does that represent value?
The question then is at what point the electric cars eating into the car market mean that net demand for petrol world wide *drops* on a sustained basis for the foresable future. That is, the increase in electric cars becomes bigger than the increase in car usage.
There's also the idea that electric cars will be able to help load balance renewables: batteries of cars not in use would be able to soak up the excess and give some back during low periods.
It'd be interesting to see how such a distributed storage effort would work in practice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide
How do you deal with an enemy that quite simply is more than happy to die for the cause and where surrender or captivity is not words in their lexicon. We have of course faced similar before with Japan in WW2 and that had to be resolved in quite a drastic way to avoid many many more deaths trying the alternative.
On this occasion though I am not convinced even that would work as this lot wouldn't care about the total destruction that might result through failure to come to a table and discuss any peaceful settlement. I don't believe they are even interested in any peaceful settlement and I am not sure one could even be reached.
There reasoning is to achieve a pure Islamic state and then to advance that idealism across the world as the pure religion for all. Nothing else matters a jot which makes these people even more difficult to deal with let alone reason with.
That's a huge ratchet point for Corbynistas.
Mr. Herdson, I agree that pressure rather than the rules is likelier to see Corbyn go.
It's rather sad he's there, and McDonnell likewise.
Hydrogen powered cars are electric cars. With a fun battery. In all the wrong ways.
For example, you can't park a hydrogen power car in a multi storied car park while you go on holiday - hydrogen boils off all slowly, continuously. You can use a catalytic grid to "burn" the boil off, but they can go wrong. After a couple of weeks the tank is empty....
Same with parking in a garage at home.
Filling up is fun to. About the same time as to recharge an electric car via a Tesla Supercharger - you can't pump deep cryogens fast.
Plus you need a battery in the car anyway for regenerative braking, and instant start - fuel cells don't like stopping and starting suddenly, so you use the battery while it is warming up.
Plus when you look at the fuel cycle, converting electricity to hydrogen and back again, vs storing in a battery is less efficient...