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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The future of Scottish LAB and Holyrood 2016: This week’s P

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The future of Scottish LAB and Holyrood 2016: This week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast

On this week’s PB / Polling Matters podcast Keiran discusses all things Scotland with Kate Devlin of The Herald. How bad are things for Labour? Are the SNP unstoppable in 2016 and when might we see a second independence referendum? Meanwhile, what implications might the upcoming EU referendum have on politics in Scotland and UKIP’s long term prospects in the rest of the UK?

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    First! I do enjoy these podcasts, so thanks!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    RobD said:

    First! I do enjoy these podcasts, so thanks!

    I find it difficult to find the time to listen to them. Plus I normally read PB in the library. So personally I prefer a written text.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    First! I do enjoy these podcasts, so thanks!

    I find it difficult to find the time to listen to them. Plus I normally read PB in the library. So personally I prefer a written text.
    I find it nice to listen to on the way to work, or when I'm walking somewhere. Really takes my mind of things.
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    Morning all.

    V good podcast - Kate Devlin of The Herald sounds charming.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    First! I do enjoy these podcasts, so thanks!

    I find it difficult to find the time to listen to them. Plus I normally read PB in the library. So personally I prefer a written text.
    Morninal all. I just remembered I still have last week's podcast to listen to. I guess reading and listening are done at different times, so it takes an effort to find time for them. Usually a walk or drive for me,
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    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.
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    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    FPT..Golden rule..if you want to have a long healthy life then visit a doctor as little as possible
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    First! I do enjoy these podcasts, so thanks!

    I find it difficult to find the time to listen to them. Plus I normally read PB in the library. So personally I prefer a written text.
    That sounds like work avoidance to me!
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,343
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    First! I do enjoy these podcasts, so thanks!

    I find it difficult to find the time to listen to them. Plus I normally read PB in the library. So personally I prefer a written text.
    Me too - I skip the podcasts. But variety is good, as RobD's post shows - something for all of us.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Good Morning Torbay Liberal Democrats ....

    Following their stunning success last night Auchentennach Fine Pies announces that our catchment area has been extended to the South Coast Riviera.

    My representative will travel south from Hersham by rail .... as he has done occasionally and randomly in the past.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A BMG poll last week on the EU had it 52% to 42% In UK wide but only 50% In to 50% Out in England which suggests on present polling if In retains a narrow lead it could well be Scotland keeps England in the EU rather than England forces Scotland out, especially England outside London
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Most polls show Scots do not want a second independence referendum for at least 5 to 10 years regardless of what happens at Holyrood's elections next year
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A rather important third criteria is an independence referendum is not within the remit of the Scottish Parliament. It remains a reserved Westminster matter.

    The SNP will also have to apply to the Oxford English Dictionary for the definition of the human timescale of a "generation" to mean less than the attention span of a fruit fly.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JackW said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A rather important third criteria is an independence referendum is not within the remit of the Scottish Parliament. It remains a reserved Westminster matter.

    The SNP will also have to apply to the Oxford English Dictionary for the definition of the human timescale of a "generation" to mean less than the attention span of a fruit fly.

    If the Scottish parliament voted through a further referendum by a significant majority, it would be impossible for Westminster to not authorise it.

    Though the Nats would have to be sure of winning. Losing a second indyref would be pretty damning of their cause.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited November 2015
    Okay, just listened to it. A good discussion on a number of issues in Scottish politics at the moment.

    As an outsider I still don't get how the SNP will manage to get away with not defending their record in Scotland running up to next year's election. The Scottish government runs policing, education and health, these should be the issues discussed when electing the politicians to the Scottish government rather than constitutional stuff.

    On the point made in towards the end of the podcast, I really hope that the debate around the EU referendum is of better quality than what we got in Scotland last year - although from last week's discussions on here I'm not too sure!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Sorry should have been UK wide it was 52% to 48%
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A rather important third criteria is an independence referendum is not within the remit of the Scottish Parliament. It remains a reserved Westminster matter.

    The SNP will also have to apply to the Oxford English Dictionary for the definition of the human timescale of a "generation" to mean less than the attention span of a fruit fly.

    If the Scottish parliament voted through a further referendum by a significant majority, it would be impossible for Westminster to not authorise it.

    Though the Nats would have to be sure of winning. Losing a second indyref would be pretty damning of their cause.
    The Scottish Parliament may unanimously decide that Celtic FC will join the Premiership but that doesn't mean it will happen.

    Of course the Premiership may decide on a one in one out scenario whereby Leicester City FC plays in Scotland and enjoys the warm welcome of Inverness Caledonian Thistle on balmy sun drenched Saturday afternoons in January.

    :smile:

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    Sandpit said:


    As an outsider I still don't get how the SNP will manage to get away with not defending their record in Scotland running up to next year's election. The Scottish government runs policing, education and health, these should be the issues discussed when electing the politicians to the Scottish government rather than constitutional stuff.

    It's 'cos the Nats have the BBC & press in their pocket. It's shameless how the fawning lickspittles of the MSM propagandise on their behalf.
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    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    Correct.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A rather important third criteria is an independence referendum is not within the remit of the Scottish Parliament. It remains a reserved Westminster matter.

    The SNP will also have to apply to the Oxford English Dictionary for the definition of the human timescale of a "generation" to mean less than the attention span of a fruit fly.

    If the Scottish parliament voted through a further referendum by a significant majority, it would be impossible for Westminster to not authorise it.

    Though the Nats would have to be sure of winning. Losing a second indyref would be pretty damning of their cause.
    The Scottish Parliament may unanimously decide that Celtic FC will join the Premiership but that doesn't mean it will happen.

    Of course the Premiership may decide on a one in one out scenario whereby Leicester City FC plays in Scotland and enjoys the warm welcome of Inverness Caledonian Thistle on balmy sun drenched Saturday afternoons in January.

    :smile:

    If there was genuine public demand for a second referendum then refusing it would lead to a confrontation likely to lead in turn to UDI.

    Unionists might better spend their time convincing the significant minority of Scots who currently favour independence. Some will never be convinced, but others are persuadable.

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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Looking at masked protestors setting fire to police cars I hope lengthy prison sentences follow, a line must be drawn between peaceful protest and criminal damage. I don't suppose most of them know why they're protesting, a spell at Her Majesty's pleasure will give them time to reflect.
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    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A BMG poll last week on the EU had it 52% to 42% In UK wide but only 50% In to 50% Out in England which suggests on present polling if In retains a narrow lead it could well be Scotland keeps England in the EU rather than England forces Scotland out, especially England outside London
    Good point. That could happen too.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited November 2015

    Looking at masked protestors setting fire to police cars I hope lengthy prison sentences follow, a line must be drawn between peaceful protest and criminal damage. I don't suppose most of them know why they're protesting, a spell at Her Majesty's pleasure will give them time to reflect.

    :+1: well said!

    One hopes that the thug who set fire to the police car will be billed for its replacement.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Advice to car burning protesters...Do not wear the most recognisable jacket in the world and then parade around in front of national TV cameras...there will be a knock on your door very soon..
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A BMG poll last week on the EU had it 52% to 42% In UK wide but only 50% In to 50% Out in England which suggests on present polling if In retains a narrow lead it could well be Scotland keeps England in the EU rather than England forces Scotland out, especially England outside London
    Good point. That could happen too.
    Indeed on present polls I would even suggest that is more likely
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    He doesn't. He has it in for the welfare budget, and would prefer everyone in work and that money used to either (a) close the deficit (b) fund tax-cuts or (c) spent on other investments/departments

    More or less in that order. The alternative is to cut defence, education, health, international aid or pensions.
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    Eventually, the answer will dawn on them. Restrict benefits to in-work benefits, and restrict those to Tory activists...

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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2015
    Ouch.

    Seems Osborne was too clever by half during the election campaign.

    A headline like that in the telegraph can't be good for his leadership prospects.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Eventually, the answer will dawn on them. Restrict benefits to in-work benefits, and restrict those to Tory activists...
    Osborne needs to be clear in defending the changes in the Autumn Statement. The alternative to £12bn of welfare cuts is £12bn in tax rises, which is I think 3p on the basic rate of income tax. That's the choice he's making.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I am still gob smacked at the level of benefits available in the UK..My Italian friends are amazed at the high levels that far exceed the national income here..they think the UK Gov is insane and state that is the reason so many people are trying to enter the country illegally..
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    I am still gob smacked at the level of benefits available in the UK..My Italian friends are amazed at the high levels that far exceed the national income here..they think the UK Gov is insane and state that is the reason so many people are trying to enter the country illegally..

    Agreed, the State Pension needs to be slashed
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    I am still gob smacked at the level of benefits available in the UK..My Italian friends are amazed at the high levels that far exceed the national income here..they think the UK Gov is insane and state that is the reason so many people are trying to enter the country illegally..

    Agreed, the State Pension needs to be slashed
    By how much?

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The State Pension of about 7 thousand pounds..which was paid for over fifty years..yeh lets get those rich bastards..
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    He doesn't. He has it in for the welfare budget, and would prefer everyone in work and that money used to either (a) close the deficit (b) fund tax-cuts or (c) spent on other investments/departments

    More or less in that order. The alternative is to cut defence, education, health, international aid or pensions.
    Cut pensions then. At the very least get rid of the idiotic triple lock policy which is a financially irresponsible as anything Labour ever did. Handing over a 3% rise when inflation is negative is borderline insanity.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Unfortunately, he'll get away with it, because he doesn't have the challenge of the Labour Party articulating a credible alternative proposal that would potentially appeal to the majority of voters.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.



    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A rather important third criteria is an independence referendum is not within the remit of the Scottish Parliament. It remains a reserved Westminster matter.

    The SNP will also have to apply to the Oxford English Dictionary for the definition of the human timescale of a "generation" to mean less than the attention span of a fruit fly.

    If the Scottish parliament voted through a further referendum by a significant majority, it would be impossible for Westminster to not authorise it.

    Though the Nats would have to be sure of winning. Losing a second indyref would be pretty damning of their cause.
    The Scottish Parliament may unanimously decide that Celtic FC will join the Premiership but that doesn't mean it will happen.

    Of course the Premiership may decide on a one in one out scenario whereby Leicester City FC plays in Scotland and enjoys the warm welcome of Inverness Caledonian Thistle on balmy sun drenched Saturday afternoons in January.

    :smile:

    If there was genuine public demand for a second referendum then refusing it would lead to a confrontation likely to lead in turn to UDI.

    Unionists might better spend their time convincing the significant minority of Scots who currently favour independence. Some will never be convinced, but others are persuadable.

    Physician heal thyself .... :smile:

    You are clearly suffering from an acute bout of Malcomgitis. A terrible affliction resulting in intemperate outbursts of Scottish related folly and an awful preponderance of unsightly facial warts.

    I wish you a speedy recovery.

    ................................................................

    Laters .....

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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Pong said:

    Ouch.

    Seems Osborne was too clever by half during the election campaign.

    A headline like that in the telegraph can't be good for his leadership prospects.
    Also, if universal credit gets castrated, where does that leave IDS?
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    The State Pension of about 7 thousand pounds..which was paid for over fifty years..yeh lets get those rich bastards..

    So benefits aren't so generous then? Or were you referring to Jobseeker's Allowance (also contribtutory, £3600 a year)?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited November 2015

    He doesn't. He has it in for the welfare budget, and would prefer everyone in work and that money used to either (a) close the deficit (b) fund tax-cuts or (c) spent on other investments/departments

    More or less in that order. The alternative is to cut defence, education, health, international aid or pensions.
    Cut pensions then. At the very least get rid of the idiotic triple lock policy which is a financially irresponsible as anything Labour ever did. Handing over a 3% rise when inflation is negative is borderline insanity.
    The way to cut pensions is to increase the retirement age in line with life expectancy, rather than cutting the £7k a year state pension which is now less than minimum wage. The retirement age was set at 65 when life expectancy was 68 or 69, leading to 3 or 4 years' pension for the average man. Moving it rapidly to 70 would be a good start but realistically it needs to be closer to 75 if the number of pensioners is not to outstrip the number of workers.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I was referring to the other allowances other than state pensions,,Tax Credits..housing benefits.etc..seems there are a few out there..some of the figures quoted in HOC debates are very high..
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    The State Pension of about 7 thousand pounds..which was paid for over fifty years..yeh lets get those rich bastards..

    So benefits aren't so generous then? Or were you referring to Jobseeker's Allowance (also contribtutory, £3600 a year)?
    JSA isn't contributory. You can get it despite never working.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    I also sometimes struggle to find time to listen to the podcast. An issue is I usually write (for work), taking little breaks to check updated comments, but that doesn't really work for radio (and I can't focus on a conversation and write at the same time).

    Time stamps may help.
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    I was referring to the other allowances other than state pensions,,Tax Credits..housing benefits.etc..seems there are a few out there..some of the figures quoted in HOC debates are very high..

    Not only that, but in a lot of cases paid to leftie scum, as well. Did you know that, RD?
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    IA..I imagine it is paid to scum from all of the Political Parties..
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    New poll in Spain for GE sees PP extend lead over PSOE at expense of Ciudadanos. PP/Ci coalition looking more likely.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    JEO said:

    The State Pension of about 7 thousand pounds..which was paid for over fifty years..yeh lets get those rich bastards..

    So benefits aren't so generous then? Or were you referring to Jobseeker's Allowance (also contribtutory, £3600 a year)?
    JSA isn't contributory. You can get it despite never working.
    You can get contributory JSA for six months regardless of savings only income based JSA is not contributory
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Good morning, everyone.

    I also sometimes struggle to find time to listen to the podcast. An issue is I usually write (for work), taking little breaks to check updated comments, but that doesn't really work for radio (and I can't focus on a conversation and write at the same time).

    Time stamps may help.

    I never listen to it for the same reason. It's the same reason why I never watch videos on the BBC website. I often just take a quick read and comment while I wait for something to download/wait for Excel to finish calculating/wait for someone late to a phone call.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited November 2015
    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    But there is an easier way of ensuring it is worth people taking jobs or extra work rather than staying on welfare... If they don't take the work, cut their existing welfare

    Hey Presto! That marginal rate comes down a bundle

    If there are unskilled jobs on offer at the job centre it is morally wrong for someone to not take it because the money's not much better than what they get for doing nothing
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I am still gob smacked at the level of benefits available in the UK..My Italian friends are amazed at the high levels that far exceed the national income here..they think the UK Gov is insane and state that is the reason so many people are trying to enter the country illegally..

    Agreed, the State Pension needs to be slashed
    slashing the pension is nonsense, no Govt would get elected or re-elected on that prospectus so why waste time saying it
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    edited November 2015
    Sandpit said:

    Eventually, the answer will dawn on them. Restrict benefits to in-work benefits, and restrict those to Tory activists...
    Osborne needs to be clear in defending the changes in the Autumn Statement. The alternative to £12bn of welfare cuts is £12bn in tax rises, which is I think 3p on the basic rate of income tax. That's the choice he's making.
    I'm increasingly of the view that while Osborne certainly does not always make the right choices, we do have a fundamental problem where we the public still demand things from the government but also still seem unable to accept paying what is necessary for them, and so will punish politicians if they say that.

    That probably rules out a career in politics for me, I don't think blaming the voters is a good attitude to have if one is an elected official, but even if Osborne and fo mess up, and they do, the alternatives the public might accept seem slight or non existent in some cases. If we no longer care about overspending the fine, and Corbyn will win, but if we do, well, health is off limits, everywhere else has had to cut a lot already, and the welfare budget is enormous. No matter what if you want to reduce our spending you run out of gimmes eventually. Foreign aid isn't that much in the grand scheme, though we know the UKIP answer to I've area of big savings of course.

    Personally I think the public don't actually care about overspending although we claim to and so at some point running into 2020 The Tories will probably relax that stance on that as they relaxed austerity so far. I think that's hard for them to get away with depending on the opposition strength but the only person who really would be damaged is Osborne as achieving a surplus is his baby. Or at least they would, had that silly law on surplus not been voted on.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Osbornes problem is that he promised £12 billion cuts to the welfare budget. Now there is a big hole because of the delay in tax credits. So the axe has to fall elsewhere...

    There are only so many options possible, and the marginal rate loss on UC can be brought down over time.

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    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    But there is an easier way of ensuring it is worth people taking jobs or extra work rather than staying on welfare... If they don't take the work, cut their existing welfare

    Hey Presto! That marginal rate comes down a bundle

    Morning all,

    I don't think it's the case that Nelson hates the government though. He's often banging the drum for them. In this case he is trying to stop another car crash. I can see that probably in Osborne's mind making Universal Credit have a huge marginal tax rate of 97% will not be understood by most of the population; unlike tearful single mothers on QT. But IDS must be bouncing off the walls with anger. Will he appeal over Osborne's head to Cameron?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    Correct.
    I knew that.

    I was just providing @Dair with a practical example of how it is possible to correct someone without coming across as an obnoxious arse.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    felix said:

    New poll in Spain for GE sees PP extend lead over PSOE at expense of Ciudadanos. PP/Ci coalition looking more likely.

    @SouthamObserver what does that mean for Catalonia?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    But there is an easier way of ensuring it is worth people taking jobs or extra work rather than staying on welfare... If they don't take the work, cut their existing welfare

    Hey Presto! That marginal rate comes down a bundle

    Morning all,

    I don't think it's the case that Nelson hates the government though. He's often banging the drum for them. In this case he is trying to stop another car crash. I can see that probably in Osborne's mind making Universal Credit have a huge marginal tax rate of 97% will not be understood by most of the population; unlike tearful single mothers on QT. But IDS must be bouncing off the walls with anger. Will he appeal over Osborne's head to Cameron?
    I don't know if he hates the government or not, but he certainly seems a lot more pessimistic and critical of their achievements than most his colleagues. If that is unmotivated by dislike of Cameron and co, well done him.

    I'm one who does think we need to cut spending, including in welfare, but we seem to have reached a point where it wo t be accepted. As you say, ready images will abound, and either because they agree or because they see the political cost as too high, Tories are already splitting on that and other proposals. Osborne seems trapped.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995
    Sandpit said:

    Okay, just listened to it. A good discussion on a number of issues in Scottish politics at the moment.

    As an outsider I still don't get how the SNP will manage to get away with not defending their record in Scotland running up to next year's election. The Scottish government runs policing, education and health, these should be the issues discussed when electing the politicians to the Scottish government rather than constitutional stuff.

    On the point made in towards the end of the podcast, I really hope that the debate around the EU referendum is of better quality than what we got in Scotland last year - although from last week's discussions on here I'm not too sure!

    The point is they are more popular than ever and seen to be doing a good job against the evil empire. It will be a Tsunami in 2016 with the London parties scrambling for consolation list seats. Hence Davidson fleeing Glasgow and chucking one of her minions out in Edinburgh list. Labour will follow suit.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    Can I denounce it because Fraser Nelson has banged on about not enough deficit reduction for the last 6 years and now wants it to be slowed down.

    Is he worried about having nothing to moan about ?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    The rain last night didn't dampen Lewes Bonfire - I thought you'd all appreciate a pic of Dave and Piggy!
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2015
    Osborne can reform tax credits by implementing:

    a) A non working partner reduction in unemployed couple households:
    b) A reduction in child tax credit awards based on the number of children - i.e the awards get progressively smaller from child 3, 4, 5 etc for existing claimants;
    c) Increasing the minimum work requirement to gain an exemption on the benefits cap - especially where two adults are in a family.

    Couple that with smaller, drawn out adjustments to thresholds and tapers he can get to where he needs to.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    Can I denounce it because Fraser Nelson has banged on about not enough deficit reduction for the last 6 years and now wants it to be slowed down.

    Is he worried about having nothing to moan about ?
    Good point. Surely welfare would have been hit hugely harder a long time ago if Osborne had done what he wanted (which I did too, to be fair)
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    Mr. 86, meant to utterly piss it down on Saturday. Hopefully that'll reduce weekend fireworks. The hound isn't too bad, but she's not fond of them. And I don't want them to stop her going for walks in the afternoon/evening.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,129
    edited November 2015
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    Correct.
    I knew that.

    I was just providing @Dair with a practical example of how it is possible to correct someone without coming across as an obnoxious arse.
    Perhaps you can give an example of how not to come across as a sanctimonious, pompous arse next.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    Can I denounce it because Fraser Nelson has banged on about not enough deficit reduction for the last 6 years and now wants it to be slowed down.

    Is he worried about having nothing to moan about ?
    Good point. Surely welfare would have been hit hugely harder a long time ago if Osborne had done what he wanted (which I did too, to be fair)
    A huge flip flop from Nelson - his credibility is waning.

    Next week he'll be quizzing the chancellor on which class of train ticket he buys.
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    chestnut said:

    Osborne can reform tax credits by implementing:

    a) A non working partner reduction in unemployed couple households:
    b) A reduction in child tax credit awards based on the number of children - i.e the awards get progressively smaller from child 3, 4, 5 etc for existing claimants;
    c) Increasing the minimum work requirement to gain an exemption on the benefits cap - especially where two adults are in a family.

    Couple that with smaller, drawn out adjustments to thresholds and tapers he can get to where he needs to.

    You should eliminate extra payments for having more children if you had another child when you are already on government support. If you are already dependent on the taxpayer to provide for your family, you shouldn't get paid more to have more dependents. If you really want to have more kids, then you can be responsible for using the existing income more efficiently.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    As of last night, the Scottish government’s position on tax credits was entirely reasonable. The first minister wants to use new powers being devolved to Holyrood to ensure working families do not lose out financially because of George Osborne’s cuts to child and tax credits. Exactly how she does this will be made clear in due course, but not until Mr Osborne’s own plans are spelt out in his autumn statement. Clear, measured, prudent, sensible. And politically a disaster.

    It was five days too late, for one thing.

    During that five-day hiatus, senior Nationalists insisted that what Ms Dugdale was suggesting could not be done. Holyrood did not have the powers. As late as Wednesday morning, Stewart Hosie, the SNP deputy leader, tweeted me this comment: “[A] blatant bit of misdirection by Labour. Pretending they could use powers Scotland doesn’t actually have.” The powers were confirmed by the Scotland Office that very morning and, in the afternoon, the SNP confirmed its plan to put them to use.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4606359.ece
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well quite.
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    Can I denounce it because Fraser Nelson has banged on about not enough deficit reduction for the last 6 years and now wants it to be slowed down.

    Is he worried about having nothing to moan about ?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Just glancing over at labour uncut, I see atul hatwal is as optimistic as ever - 'labour is ceasing to exist' 'labours foreign policy is a debased joke' 'God help the labour party'.

    Come on, man, it might be pretty bad, but it's not that bad, not for certain.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    But there is an easier way of ensuring it is worth people taking jobs or extra work rather than staying on welfare... If they don't take the work, cut their existing welfare

    Hey Presto! That marginal rate comes down a bundle

    Morning all,

    I don't think it's the case that Nelson hates the government though. He's often banging the drum for them. In this case he is trying to stop another car crash. I can see that probably in Osborne's mind making Universal Credit have a huge marginal tax rate of 97% will not be understood by most of the population; unlike tearful single mothers on QT. But IDS must be bouncing off the walls with anger. Will he appeal over Osborne's head to Cameron?
    I don't know if he hates the government or not, but he certainly seems a lot more pessimistic and critical of their achievements than most his colleagues. If that is unmotivated by dislike of Cameron and co, well done him.

    I'm one who does think we need to cut spending, including in welfare, but we seem to have reached a point where it won't be accepted. As you say, ready images will abound, and either because they agree or because they see the political cost as too high, Tories are already splitting on that and other proposals. Osborne seems trapped.
    Fundamentally the point is that people in employment shouldn't be getting income support from taxpayers.

    Brown's tax credits structure created an invidious system of recirculating money that created massive complexity.

    Of course there are going to be individual losers in addressing this, and thought needs to be given to transitional arrangements, but it is a fundamental drag on the UK economy that needs to be fixed.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ScottyNational: John Lewis: TV ad accidentally shows No voter on moon guarding secret oil fields - 'The white paper promised us the moon so they're ours!'
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    isam said:

    I guess the telegraph article will be denounced because Fraser Nelson is one of the Tories who hate the govt or summint

    But there is an easier way of ensuring it is worth people taking jobs or extra work rather than staying on welfare... If they don't take the work, cut their existing welfare

    Hey Presto! That marginal rate comes down a bundle

    If there are unskilled jobs on offer at the job centre it is morally wrong for someone to not take it because the money's not much better than what they get for doing nothing

    The trouble is that the life choices and decisions of millions of low-earning families have been structured around the perverse system we've had for the last 15 years.

    None of what you say is wrong, and it must change as you suggest, but there's no way to do it without some pain.

    The best way is to ensure that with tax cuts and a higher minimum wage, all families and workers stand pat, rather than lose. And if they work more they earn more.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tlg86 said:

    The rain last night didn't dampen Lewes Bonfire - I thought you'd all appreciate a pic of Dave and Piggy!

    I quite liked Putin in a mankini
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Welcome to Sweden, home of left wing social policy.

    They are now thinking of cutting aid to genuinely poor people in the third world so that they can pay for the aggressive young men who have paid smugglers to get themselves into Europe:

    http://www.euractiv.com/sections/development-policy/sweden-considers-cutting-development-aid-budget-60-due-refugee-crisis

    Those poor people in slums in Africa are out of sight, out of mind, so we can cut their aid. But the brown people that have turned up here, we should only be nice to. That means only giving them six month sentences when they rape Swedish women.

    http://www.thelocal.se/20151106/teens-sentenced-for-gang-rape-on-hipster-island
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    MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    FPT Dair said the capital value of social housing is zero until it is sold. Wrong. It is bricks and mortar and has an assessed value, which the landlord can borrow against. When councils "bought" their housing at the end of the Housing Subsidy system in 2012, the value of the houses was assessed and the councils paid for them, by borrowing at special rates from the PWLB. Housing associations use the value of their stock to borrow against too. The government has just decided to classify housing associations as part of the public sector, and that has affected the national debt. However, GO's bright ideas on social housing and Right To Buy for housing association tenants to be financed by forced sales of council houses have thrown a right spanner in the financing works. Councils and housing associations normally operate on 30 year (or more) business plans because that is the period of time in which you can finance building a house and getting in enough rent to cover all the costs. They have all had to tear up their business plans and are trying to rewrite them, without having enough detail from the government to be able to figure out exactly what is going to happen. If the Tories want to kill public sector social housing they are going the right way about it.
    Makes me furious at the Tories' callousness, as they set out to provide houses to buy,i.e. to cater for potential Tory voters, not social housing. Yep, 86% of people want to own their own home. Of course they do. But that doesn't mean they will ever have enough money to do it. Huge numbers of people rely on social rents and/or Housing Benefit to be able to keep a roof over their heads. And their situation is getting worse.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Good morning all. Not much to add at the moment other than, for the love of God Mrs B, paragraphs are your friend!
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    The rain last night didn't dampen Lewes Bonfire - I thought you'd all appreciate a pic of Dave and Piggy!

    I quite liked Putin in a mankini
    That was good, as was the Angela Merkel one in 2012. But the two of Alex Salmond last year were fantastic.
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    John_M said:

    Good morning all. Not much to add at the moment other than, for the love of God Mrs B, paragraphs are your friend!

    Don't trust them myself, if I can help it, trying to break up my flow. I once wrote something longer than that all in one sentence (parentheses are a friend there).
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2015
    JEO said:

    chestnut said:

    Osborne can reform tax credits by implementing:

    a) A non working partner reduction in unemployed couple households:
    b) A reduction in child tax credit awards based on the number of children - i.e the awards get progressively smaller from child 3, 4, 5 etc for existing claimants;
    c) Increasing the minimum work requirement to gain an exemption on the benefits cap - especially where two adults are in a family.

    Couple that with smaller, drawn out adjustments to thresholds and tapers he can get to where he needs to.

    You should eliminate extra payments for having more children if you had another child when you are already on government support. If you are already dependent on the taxpayer to provide for your family, you shouldn't get paid more to have more dependents. If you really want to have more kids, then you can be responsible for using the existing income more efficiently.
    Extra 'new' children won't qualify from 2017, but handouts for big families are something that is generally objected to by the public.

    A third of the tax credit families budget goes to the 20% of claimants with three or more children.

    15% of the families budget (£4bn) goes to the 5% of claimants with four or more children.

    It's reasonable to assume that is mirrored in the child benefit budget as well.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    edited November 2015
    isam said:
    It's an interesting point.

    Tax credits are a 'pull' factor to the UK, and reducing them is far more likely to have an effect than Cameron's attempts to exclude EU workers from benefits for the first 4 years of their arrival (which he now looks very unlikely to get) In fact, he'll be lucky to get six months.

    I remember seeing a Romanian family's eyes light up when they went to social services for housing advice and realised how much money they could claim.

    Word of that can - and does - get around. But, once again, realism is needed: it'd only shave off very low ten of thousands, if we're lucky.

    For big cuts in immigration, the government must go after 'students' and 'family reunions'.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MrsB said:

    Yep, 86% of people want to own their own home. Of course they do. But that doesn't mean they will ever have enough money to do it. Huge numbers of people rely on social rents and/or Housing Benefit to be able to keep a roof over their heads. And their situation is getting worse.

    Housing Benefit is just a transfer of money from the government to private landlords. The reforms the government has made over the last few years are a valuable first step: the government should take advantage of the fact that it is a large buyer to squeeze rates.

    Social housing is important, but there have been issues in the past - primarily around ensuring that it ends up with the people who need it. Too often it become a benefit for life when, ideally it should be temporary.

    Personally, I think what the government is missing as a trick is getting big pension funds into the game. They need long-term secure income streams and are far more responsibly counterparties than the individual Joe Schmoe who dominate the social BTL segment. If a council was to enter into, say, a 30 year contract with a pension fund, offering them a 4-5% return on their money annually, they'd be delighted to build social flats and manage them as well.
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    chestnut said:

    JEO said:

    chestnut said:

    Osborne can reform tax credits by implementing:

    a) A non working partner reduction in unemployed couple households:
    b) A reduction in child tax credit awards based on the number of children - i.e the awards get progressively smaller from child 3, 4, 5 etc for existing claimants;
    c) Increasing the minimum work requirement to gain an exemption on the benefits cap - especially where two adults are in a family.

    Couple that with smaller, drawn out adjustments to thresholds and tapers he can get to where he needs to.

    You should eliminate extra payments for having more children if you had another child when you are already on government support. If you are already dependent on the taxpayer to provide for your family, you shouldn't get paid more to have more dependents. If you really want to have more kids, then you can be responsible for using the existing income more efficiently.
    Extra 'new' children won't qualify from 2017, but handouts for big families are something that is generally objected to by the public.

    A third of the tax credit families budget goes to the 20% of claimants with three or more children.

    15% of the families budget (£4bn) goes to the 5% of claimants with four or more children.

    It's reasonable to assume that is mirrored in the child benefit budget as well.
    I don't think that's quite what I'm arguing for though. If a couple is on a good income and have four kids, yet one partner dies and the other has to cut back hours to be a single parent, then I think it's reasonable they're assisted if the remaining parent falls into a low income. Meanwhile if someone is unemployed, not in a relationship and decides to have a baby on their own, I don't think it's reasonable they get extra government support.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    John_M said:

    Good morning all. Not much to add at the moment other than, for the love of God Mrs B, paragraphs are your friend!

    Don't trust them myself, if I can help it, trying to break up my flow. I once wrote something longer than that all in one sentence (parentheses are a friend there).
    but did you have sub-parentheses within parentheses?

    I've always been partial to colon, semi-colon combinations when writing long sentences.
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    I don't see why John Lewis don't go the whole hog with their Christmas ad and use a soundtrack of Killing In The Name by Rage Against The Machine as covered by Kate Bush.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    JEO said:
    This is going to be quite terrible as winter arrives. The British approach here is the right one, let's get say £10bn & a few thousand military and aid workers together from Eurpoean nations, and massively expand the camps in the affected nations. We can provide food and shelter for many more genuine refugees that way, while at the same time encourage anyone who wishes to deport themselves in the direction of the airport.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    John_M said:

    Good morning all. Not much to add at the moment other than, for the love of God Mrs B, paragraphs are your friend!

    Don't trust them myself, if I can help it, trying to break up my flow. I once wrote something longer than that all in one sentence (parentheses are a friend there).
    I've always been partial to colon, semi-colon combinations when writing long sentences.
    I've recently been going back over some old writing of mine, and it is quite clear I was deeply in love with the semi-colon for a period of about a year; the evidence is damning.
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    JEO said:

    Welcome to Sweden, home of left wing social policy.

    They are now thinking of cutting aid to genuinely poor people in the third world so that they can pay for the aggressive young men who have paid smugglers to get themselves into Europe:

    http://www.euractiv.com/sections/development-policy/sweden-considers-cutting-development-aid-budget-60-due-refugee-crisis

    Those poor people in slums in Africa are out of sight, out of mind, so we can cut their aid. But the brown people that have turned up here, we should only be nice to. That means only giving them six month sentences when they rape Swedish women.

    http://www.thelocal.se/20151106/teens-sentenced-for-gang-rape-on-hipster-island

    Sweden is a classic example of how a governing centre-right party can end up being ejected from office because it loses its right flank. That's exactly why the Moderates lost last year, with a substantial swing to the Swedish Democrats, and how the social democrats took office (despite the fact they barely advanced at all)

    Since taking office, the social democrats have shown they have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. But there will probably be no end to it until the Moderates face up to the fact they need to engage with the inmigration issue, and learn to tango with the Swedish Democrats.
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    Mr. kle4, it is possible to have a propensity for punctuation beyond what is normal or healthy. In that circumstance, a colonectomy may be necessary.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited November 2015
    antifrank said:

    I don't see why John Lewis don't go the whole hog with their Christmas ad and use a soundtrack of Killing In The Name by Rage Against The Machine as covered by Kate Bush.

    Hideous

    I didn't realise it was a cover version, I avoided the ad

    I hate Christmas schmaltz.... Particularly from big corporations that are just after my dough!

    But not as much as I hate feeble trembly voiced versions of old songs... Nouvelle Vague did it a decade ago and I quite liked it.... Now it makes me want to SCREAAAAAAAM!

    I do like this Christmas ad though

    http://youtu.be/E0WrEPYVqvw
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Makes me furious at the Tories' callousness, as they set out to provide houses to buy,i.e. to cater for potential Tory voters, not social housing.''

    Not just true of the tories though, is it? where were labour's social housing plans in their 13 years in government?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    JackW said:

    Charles said:

    The SNP will call another referendum if and when they think they can win it.

    So, in this instance, the polls are all important. The UK leaving the EU could be a trigger but only if sufficient NO voters hold it to be of such importance that they are willing to switch their votes to YES over it to maintain Scottish membership.

    In other words, they will prioritise the EU over the UK. Personally, I'm not convinced.

    Surely by switching their votes from No to Yes in order to keep Scotland in the UK they would be prioritising the UK over the EU.
    Does that sound more likely?
    I think Casino is saying there two conditions to meet to have a second referendum on Scottish independence: (a) a vote for Brexit and (b) a majority in the polls for iScot

    To achieve (b) that means that former unionist voters have switched to support iScot in the EU

    Implicitly, therefore, in order to keep Scotland in the EU, they are willing to breakup the UK.

    This doesn't seem a likely scenario
    A rather important third criteria is an independence referendum is not within the remit of the Scottish Parliament. It remains a reserved Westminster matter.

    The SNP will also have to apply to the Oxford English Dictionary for the definition of the human timescale of a "generation" to mean less than the attention span of a fruit fly.

    If you take a generation to be 30 years or so then we have had one Independence referendum in the time period 1984-2014 so clearing the way for a second referendum in the period 2015-2045
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    edited November 2015

    Mr. kle4, it is possible to have a propensity for punctuation beyond what is normal or healthy. In that circumstance, a colonectomy may be necessary.

    !!!

    A pleasant day to all
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Charles said:

    MrsB said:

    Yep, 86% of people want to own their own home. Of course they do. But that doesn't mean they will ever have enough money to do it. Huge numbers of people rely on social rents and/or Housing Benefit to be able to keep a roof over their heads. And their situation is getting worse.

    Personally, I think what the government is missing as a trick is getting big pension funds into the game. They need long-term secure income streams and are far more responsibly counterparties than the individual Joe Schmoe who dominate the social BTL segment. If a council was to enter into, say, a 30 year contract with a pension fund, offering them a 4-5% return on their money annually, they'd be delighted to build social flats and manage them as well.
    More admin fees for your chums in the City?

    Personally, I'd have more faith in the smaller landlords than the faceless property giants.

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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    Okay, just listened to it. A good discussion on a number of issues in Scottish politics at the moment.

    As an outsider I still don't get how the SNP will manage to get away with not defending their record in Scotland running up to next year's election. The Scottish government runs policing, education and health, these should be the issues discussed when electing the politicians to the Scottish government rather than constitutional stuff.

    The public rate the SNP positively on all those topics.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited November 2015
    taffys said:

    ''Makes me furious at the Tories' callousness, as they set out to provide houses to buy,i.e. to cater for potential Tory voters, not social housing.''

    Not just true of the tories though, is it? where were labour's social housing plans in their 13 years in government?

    I've never found the argument that the Tories are just as shite as Labour particularly compelling.

    The Corbynites appear to be attempting to square your particular circle by retconning the Blair/Brown years as a Tory government in all but name.

    I agree with the idea that social housing is important, necessary and ideally, temporary (though I appreciate not all people will ever be able to afford their own home). That brings us around to the old chestnut - the housing situation in this country is almost as dysfunctional as the NHS.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited November 2015

    I was referring to the other allowances other than state pensions,,Tax Credits..housing benefits.etc..seems there are a few out there..some of the figures quoted in HOC debates are very high..

    Are you referring to any other of the massive wodge of benefits benefits pensioners get?
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