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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Antifrank on the GE2020 prospects for Tim Farron’s Lib Dem

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Antifrank on the GE2020 prospects for Tim Farron’s Lib Dems

Well, actually, no.  There is a serious possibility that things could get worse for them in 2020.  Of their eight seats, only one of them looks truly safe on current boundaries: that of their leader, Tim Farron.  Three of their four most marginal seats look as though they may well lose their Lib Dem incumbents:

Read the full story here


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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632
    edited November 2015
    1

    That isn't a forecast of LD seats in 2020!

    On second thoughts, having now read Antifrank's article, yes it is.
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    Going into coalition really did shaft the Lib Dems.
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    How many deposits did they lose at GE2015?

    During the 2010-15 parliament by-elections, they lost 11 deposits from 19 GB contests, which is equivalent to 366 of 632 GB seats.
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    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Good tip - I am on
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    How many deposits did they lose at GE2015?

    During the 2010-15 parliament by-elections, they lost 11 deposits from 19 GB contests, which is equivalent to 366 of 632 GB seats.

    They lost 340 deposits which worked out at £170k they enriched the treasury on election night.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,683
    Interesting if useless fact is that the LDs saved their deposit in the Heywood & Middleton by-election, and then lost it at the general election.
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    Good spot on the 8.5 seats. I'm on!
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    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!

    I third it.

    A by election in Richmond could make or break the Yellows
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    How many deposits did they lose at GE2015?

    During the 2010-15 parliament by-elections, they lost 11 deposits from 19 GB contests, which is equivalent to 366 of 632 GB seats.

    They lost 340 deposits which worked out at £170k they enriched the treasury on election night.
    366 not far off then :)
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :smiley:
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting if useless fact is that the LDs saved their deposit in the Heywood & Middleton by-election, and then lost it at the general election.

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015
    I think the killer sentence here is 'They seem largely to have been forgotten about.' It's going to take a long time to recover, and I think it can only be done by new faces - Nick Clegg, Vince Cable, Danny A etc already seem like figures from another age.

    Whether it can be done by Tim Farron is unclear to me. I'm inclined to think not, but we shall see.
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,733

    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!

    Other than seats that they currently hold, which would be the 'best' seats for a prospective Lib Dem by-election gain? Presumably those that they lost narrowly where there is a divided opposition? (thinking Eastleigh would potentially see a re-run of the 2013b/e result)
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited November 2015
    Lennon said:

    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!

    Other than seats that they currently hold, which would be the 'best' seats for a prospective Lib Dem by-election gain? Presumably those that they lost narrowly where there is a divided opposition? (thinking Eastleigh would potentially see a re-run of the 2013b/e result)
    Richmond Park. So many variables in that one. Mostly to do with Heathrow.
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,733

    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!

    I third it.

    A by election in Richmond could make or break the Yellows
    Presumably that's Richmond Park, not Richmond (Yorks)... ;-)
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    Something trivial:
    Cadbury have changed the Fruit & Nut recipe [doesn't bother me, as I don't eat nuts], but check the comments:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34718668

    The majority of top comments have been referred to moderation. Seems people may be concerned about snooping laws, but furious about changing chocolate bar recipes.
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    Lennon said:

    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!

    I third it.

    A by election in Richmond could make or break the Yellows
    Presumably that's Richmond Park, not Richmond (Yorks)... ;-)
    Yeah Richmond Park.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632

    How many deposits did they lose at GE2015?

    During the 2010-15 parliament by-elections, they lost 11 deposits from 19 GB contests, which is equivalent to 366 of 632 GB seats.

    They lost 340 deposits which worked out at £170k they enriched the treasury on election night.
    366 not far off then :)
    Close enough for government work, as they say in the US.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I hate sultanas - won't be buying a Fruit & Nut again. Why do they fiddle about with winning recipes?

    Something trivial:
    Cadbury have changed the Fruit & Nut recipe [doesn't bother me, as I don't eat nuts], but check the comments:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34718668

    The majority of top comments have been referred to moderation. Seems people may be concerned about snooping laws, but furious about changing chocolate bar recipes.

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    Miss Plato, they're cheaper than raisins. That's it.

    Also, the cocoa content has reportedly been reduced.
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    Something trivial:
    Cadbury have changed the Fruit & Nut recipe [doesn't bother me, as I don't eat nuts], but check the comments:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34718668

    The majority of top comments have been referred to moderation. Seems people may be concerned about snooping laws, but furious about changing chocolate bar recipes.

    Judging by my Twitter feed the thing people are most furious about are is Twitter changing favourite to like. Replete with little heart.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2015
    FPT:

    Anorak said:

    A far cry from a jumped-up council numpty picking through your browsing habits from the last year to see if you joked about fly-tipping a washing machine.

    Local authorities are explictly excluded from that power under this new bill. I think they might currently have that power under RIPA, if the ISP has the data (which I believe they usually will, for a time at least).
    Good to hear. But the concern remains if I change "jumped-up council numpty" to "vindictive police half-wit". There are a disturbing number of the latter in my [limited] experience.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Farron needs to go and set up shop in the West Country (especially Cornwall) for the next 5 years. As so often for the Liberals / Lib Dems in the past, the rural working-class are the low-hanging fruit: Labour are too metropolitan for them, but the Tories are too rich for them to feel a great deal of affinity with them either (especially so if Osborne becomes leader).

    I don't think there's much prospect of them winning back the Red Liberals until the Coalition is a VERY distant memory (and a leader who doesn't answer if he thinks gay sex is a sin would probably not be a great fit for those voters at the best of times). And any suggestion that "centrist" swing voters are going to see a party with 8 MPs as the credible moderates, is for the birds.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited November 2015
    Lennon said:

    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!

    Other than seats that they currently hold, which would be the 'best' seats for a prospective Lib Dem by-election gain? Presumably those that they lost narrowly where there is a divided opposition? (thinking Eastleigh would potentially see a re-run of the 2013b/e result)
    Edinburgh West would be a real runner (as would a few others in Scotland, but that one might well happen). And similarly any narrow Tory gain where the new MP was forced to stand down.

    Cambridge looks like the only viable target from Labour.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Urgh. Reminds me of when Jacob's Club replaced chocolate with *chocolate flavoured coating* Well, that lost them another fan.

    Miss Plato, they're cheaper than raisins. That's it.

    Also, the cocoa content has reportedly been reduced.

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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Lennon said:

    Very good thread; I second all of it, especially the tip. That by-election market is intriguing (4/6 to win one, 11/10 not): the most obvious candidate is Orkney & Shetland!

    Other than seats that they currently hold, which would be the 'best' seats for a prospective Lib Dem by-election gain? Presumably those that they lost narrowly where there is a divided opposition? (thinking Eastleigh would potentially see a re-run of the 2013b/e result)
    Edinburgh West would be a real runner (as would a few others in Scotland, but that one might well happen). And similarly any narrow Tory gain where the new MP was forced to stand down.

    Cambridge looks like the only viable target from Labour.
    I'm not sure about Edinburgh West: I think they may already have squeezed every last possible tactical vote there this year, judging by how gruesome their results were in the other Edinburgh seats.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015
    Cyclefree said:

    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.

    Above and beyond the utter bollocks of the argument being wheeled out (and the fact we all are having our data logged and all the concerns with that...just one rogue employee is all it takes), this move could actually backfire in a big way.

    It could well encourage discussion of ways around this and make more and more of the less sophisticated criminals aware of ways in which they could and should go about masking their online activities.

    Some basic steps are cheap and as idiot proof as downloading an app to your pc / phone which automatically is on whenever you access the net.
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    Miss Cyclefree, that's something that gets me. When defendants of a scheme are talking bullshit, the scheme stinks.
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    Cyclefree said:

    If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at

    Not really. For example: Knowing someone had visited www.nhs.uk wouldn't tell you very much. Knowing they were looking at specific pages might.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I'm still holding out hope for a tasty Sheffield Hallam by-election before long.
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    Cyclefree said:

    If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at

    Not really. For example: Knowing someone had visited www.nhs.uk wouldn't tell you very much. Knowing they were looking at specific pages might.
    Hmm. I can see that you were looking at www.******.com, but I don't know what particular fetish you're into.
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    Labour London wide Assembly list announced today (ranking by regional board rather than membership ballot IIRC):

    1. Fiona Twycross AM
    2. Tom Copley AM
    3. Nicky Gavron AM
    4. Murad Qureshi AM
    5. Alison Moore
    6. Preston Tabois
    7. Feryal Demirci
    8. Mike Katz
    9. Emily Brothers
    10. Bevan Powell
    11. Lisa Homan
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    Cyclefree said:

    If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at

    Not really. For example: Knowing someone had visited www.nhs.uk wouldn't tell you very much. Knowing they were looking at specific pages might.
    It depends on how vast the website is. Sure visiting bbc or nhs or youtube etc wont tell you much, but most sites are very niche, very specific content and very small.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited November 2015
    I seem to recall it being commonplace for various Islamist terrorists to get round all sorts of traffic watching by simply having an anon email address, then saving the messages in Drafts for others in the cell to logon onto and write their replies!

    No emails sent at all and no idea who was logging in to read them.

    Cyclefree said:

    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.

    Above and beyond the utter bollocks of the argument being wheeled out (and the fact we all are having our data logged and all the concerns with that...just one rogue employee is all it takes), this move could actually backfire in a big way.

    It could well encourage discussion of ways around this and make more and more of the less sophisticated criminals aware of ways in which they could and should go about masking their online activities.

    Some basic steps are cheap and as idiot proof as downloading an app to your pc / phone which automatically is on whenever you access the net.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited November 2015

    Cyclefree said:

    If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at

    Not really. For example: Knowing someone had visited www.nhs.uk wouldn't tell you very much. Knowing they were looking at specific pages might.
    I think the main difference will be sites like www.google.com, www.facebook.com or www.youtube.com.


    www.politicalbetting.com for example would tell you all you needed to know!
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    You really shouldn't have told us that you used to be @Grandiose :worried:

    Cyclefree said:

    If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at

    Not really. For example: Knowing someone had visited www.nhs.uk wouldn't tell you very much. Knowing they were looking at specific pages might.
    I think the main difference will be sites like www.google.com, www.facebook.com or www.youtube.com.


    www.politicalbetting.com for example would tell you all you needed to know!
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Danny565 said:

    I'm still holding out hope for a tasty Sheffield Hallam by-election before long.

    This is why Labour are going to fail. Your ill will towards Clegg and other Lib Dems blinds you guys to the real task of beating the Tories and reversing some of the damage in Scotland.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,683
    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.
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    http://order-order.com/2015/11/04/miliband-diane-abbott-and-clegg-named-mps-of-the-year/

    Who are the Patchwork Foundation. Are they some sort of Peter Hain related think tank? Or perhaps a Mark Thomas prank?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015
    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid. It is bloody dangerous.
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    Urgh. Reminds me of when Jacob's Club replaced chocolate with *chocolate flavoured coating* Well, that lost them another fan.

    Miss Plato, they're cheaper than raisins. That's it.

    Also, the cocoa content has reportedly been reduced.


    if you like a lot of chocolate flavoured coating on your biscuit...

    blame the french, apparently:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob's_Club


    meanwhile, I marvel at the life of the wikipedian who found the time to write about this subject above all others in the world
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Most people don't care. I do, but we're in a minority by a long chalk.

    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Ugly prospects, to be sure. I feel for them. They barely scraped my vote this time, but I want more parties to have decent numbers in parliament not less, and with UKIP facing their well known difficulties breaking through despite far better national poll numbers than the LDs, the Greens nowhere as usual, PC limited in scope and the SNP already having achieved dominance, the LDs are the only other option to be a strong party in Parliament, but there are so few areas that are ready to be won back with even a decent revival. They need miracles to win, at present, or they need a good result to hold and barely build on 2015, to try for a bigger push in 2025.

    There seems little they can do, barring that poll revival the piece mentions they need just sort of happening from pure chance.

    FPT:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    Well said. I may well have nothing to fear, save embarrassment at being a political wonk, but the potential abuses and broad reach that seem impossible to mitigate against effectively make the stated purpose seem an overreach, though I take Janan Ganesh's point in a recent article that the public at large don't generally seem to care about these sorts of issues, rightly or wrongly.
    It's a tough, butusually accepted case, for spooks to have access, to override privacy, and widening that is risky.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Something trivial:
    Cadbury have changed the Fruit & Nut recipe [doesn't bother me, as I don't eat nuts], but check the comments:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34718668

    May I assure the PB cognoscenti that Auchentennach Fine Pies remains untainted by superfluous ingredients to our traditional recipes.

    No bar charts, sandals or beards will pass your lips ....



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    Most people don't care. I do, but we're in a minority by a long chalk.

    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid.
    I don't know. This is on a similar footing to ID Cards and the public did get engaged with the argument against those.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Cyclefree said:

    If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at

    Not really. For example: Knowing someone had visited www.nhs.uk wouldn't tell you very much. Knowing they were looking at specific pages might.
    It would also mean you could phone up the webmaster of nhs.uk and ask the for the log records in relation to the person you are interested in, and that person not wanting and hassle from the law would almost certainly send them to you, therefore giving you full access to that persons browsing on the site without any nasty problems like accountability.

    Time to buy shares in VPN providers.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I'm amazed you found the relevant Wiki page! :open_mouth:

    Urgh. Reminds me of when Jacob's Club replaced chocolate with *chocolate flavoured coating* Well, that lost them another fan.

    Miss Plato, they're cheaper than raisins. That's it.

    Also, the cocoa content has reportedly been reduced.


    if you like a lot of chocolate flavoured coating on your biscuit...

    blame the french, apparently:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob's_Club


    meanwhile, I marvel at the life of the wikipedian who found the time to write about this subject above all others in the world
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    Mr. Urquhart, similar, but not on the same scale. ID cards involved a massive government database and everybody in the country having a card.

    This will be unseen, unless you get called in by the rozzers/spooks or blackmailed by dodgy people.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    Miss Plato, they're cheaper than raisins. That's it.

    Also, the cocoa content has reportedly been reduced.

    They're cheaper because they are awful! Godsdamned Cadbury's. Honestly, aren't we heading for a chocolate shortage soon anyway? I can understand trying to reduce cocoa content, sad though that is, but removing the other good bit of the bar for something crappy at the same time? Madness.

    I hope this becomes a cross political issue.
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    Indigo said:

    Cyclefree said:

    If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at

    Not really. For example: Knowing someone had visited www.nhs.uk wouldn't tell you very much. Knowing they were looking at specific pages might.
    It would also mean you could phone up the webmaster of nhs.uk and ask the for the log records in relation to the person you are interested in, and that person not wanting and hassle from the law would almost certainly send them to you, therefore giving you full access to that persons browsing on the site without any nasty problems like accountability.

    Time to buy shares in VPN providers.
    VPN companies must be rubbing their hands at this. It is literally Christmas come early.

    I am very happy with my provider and their operating policies in relations to logs, connections and obviously speed.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I like plain chocolate - with a large glass of cold milk :smiley:
    kle4 said:

    Miss Plato, they're cheaper than raisins. That's it.

    Also, the cocoa content has reportedly been reduced.

    They're cheaper because they are awful! Godsdamned Cadbury's. Honestly, aren't we heading for a chocolate shortage soon anyway? I can understand trying to reduce cocoa content, sad though that is, but removing the other good bit of the bar for something crappy at the same time? Madness.

    I hope this becomes a cross political issue.
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    Most people don't care. I do, but we're in a minority by a long chalk.

    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid.
    I don't know. This is on a similar footing to ID Cards and the public did get engaged with the argument against those.
    I do not mind having an ID card, I have one already - a driving licence. The stupidity and expense of this proposed national ID card was the all singing dancing database behind it linking to everything under the sun.
    I am happy to prove my identity and we should have at least one authorised 'something' which can prove it.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    The Fruit and Nut story is gold - comment 440 is brilliant, asking why Corbyn didn't mention it at PMQs a 1300 even though they ay they emailed him at 1255, then cramming in a terrible raison pun.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    4 run outs in 6 balls for the West Indies
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Most people don't care. I do, but we're in a minority by a long chalk.

    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid.
    I don't know. This is on a similar footing to ID Cards and the public did get engaged with the argument against those.
    I agree. Given the amount of free on-line pr0n viewed by members of the public, pitching this to the public in the right way might generate a lot of concern. Local authorities involved in child custody cases able to see if the parents like a bit of S&M ?

    Personally what I despise its its patently not there to catch terrorists or even vaguely competent criminals, its so easy for the even marginally informed to sidestep completely. Its there for mass surveillance, and we should treat with deep suspicion any list of authorities with access that includes HMRC, that means its really about money.
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    Indigo said:

    It would also mean you could phone up the webmaster of nhs.uk and ask the for the log records in relation to the person you are interested in, and that person not wanting and hassle from the law would almost certainly send them to you, therefore giving you full access to that persons browsing on the site without any nasty problems like accountability.

    Hang on, the plod would need a warrant to do that, and if the webmaster gave them the info without a warrant he'd be committing a criminal offence. At least that's my understanding.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I see what @Morris_Dancer means about referred to mods, its brilliant
    kle4 said:

    The Fruit and Nut story is gold - comment 440 is brilliant, asking why Corbyn didn't mention it at PMQs a 1300 even though they ay they emailed him at 1255, then cramming in a terrible raison pun.

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    Mr. Urquhart, similar, but not on the same scale. ID cards involved a massive government database and everybody in the country having a card.

    This will be unseen, unless you get called in by the rozzers/spooks or blackmailed by dodgy people.

    As is often the case, the government is making a poor case for this law because they have not, as far as I've seen, adequately defined the problem(s) the law is designed to solve. There has been much hand-waving about terrorists and child welfare, but nothing substantial or concrete.

    It'd be nice if they could at least give some case studies where access to this information may have allowed the authorities to act more quickly to a threat or issue.

    As far as I can tell, they have not. I therefore worry that, leaving aside civil liberties issues, they have not defined the problem(s) well themselves.

    (I may well have missed such information, in which case the above is rubbish)
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    exit, humming the jacob's club jingle. goodnight all. i hope all your dried fruit dilemmas may be successfully resolved x
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    Indigo said:

    Most people don't care. I do, but we're in a minority by a long chalk.

    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid.
    I don't know. This is on a similar footing to ID Cards and the public did get engaged with the argument against those.
    I agree. Given the amount of free on-line pr0n viewed by members of the public, pitching this to the public in the right way might generate a lot of concern. Local authorities involved in child custody cases able to see if the parents like a bit of S&M ?

    Personally what I despise its its patently not there to catch terrorists or even vaguely competent criminals, its so easy for the even marginally informed to sidestep completely. Its there for mass surveillance, and we should treat with deep suspicion any list of authorities with access that includes HMRC, that means its really about money.
    The whole police force is fundamentally set up to catch idiots, or clever people who make mistakes. It sweeps up basic errors and turns them into an intimidating success percentage.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    isam said:

    4 run outs in 6 balls for the West Indies

    Tail end of a one day game chasing runs I see, although it still made me immediately think I could see why Sir Garfield was reduced practically to tears at thecontinuing state of the team recently.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015
    As regards VPNs, you know what? I have a sneaking suspicion that GCHQ might have thought of that. It never ceases to amaze me that people with zero knowledge of surveillance think they know more than the spooks about what is effective.
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    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid. It is bloody dangerous.
    How about being blown up by terrorists? Is there some extremely clever reason why you consider it a good idea to allow terrorists and other criminals unfettered access to the internet and mobile phone network to plot their activities?
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    As regards VPNs, you know what? I have a sneaking suspicion that GCHQ might have thought of that. It never ceases to amaze me that people with zero knowledge of surveillance think they know more than the spooks about what is effective.

    We already know that GCHQ can access VPN traffic, Snowdon revealed it. But that isn't the plod is it.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015

    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid. It is bloody dangerous.
    How about being blown up by terrorists? Is there some extremely clever reason why you consider it a good idea to allow terrorists and other criminals unfettered access to the internet and mobile phone network to plot their activities?
    International terrorists with half a brain aren't accessing the internet without a certain level of "protection", certainly not in a way that recording ISP level traffic would do anything to stop.

    This law will do nothing to change how they operate, if anything it will just make them more careful. The spooks can already access TOR and VPN traffic and I don't have a problem with that. But to do so, they have to do some leg work. This bill has nothing to do with this.

    It is a totally different thing for GCHQ to spy on a terrorist like that, than a whole host of other agencies looking at people general internet traffic.
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    Mr. Flightpath, I don't think giving a slew of public bodies snooping powers over 100% of people who use the internet because 0.001% of web users are terrorists is proportionate.

    It's like banning post-its or having a post-it registry because terrorists have been using them.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    edited November 2015
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    4 run outs in 6 balls for the West Indies

    Tail end of a one day game chasing runs I see, although it still made me immediately think I could see why Sir Garfield was reduced practically to tears at thecontinuing state of the team recently.
    Ian Bishop on commentary reminds me of an exasperated social worker on Grange Hill, who endlessly tries to see the best in kids who constantly let him down
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    Mr. Flightpath, I don't think giving a slew of public bodies snooping powers over 100% of people who use the internet because 0.001% of web users are terrorists is proportionate.

    It's like banning post-its or having a post-it registry because terrorists have been using them.

    No, it isn't. It's like keeping call data so the police can access it.

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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Has the warrant issuing problem been resolved or is it still political? A lot of what is proposed makes me uncomfortable, but I can see some of the logic, what makes me oppose it is the fact that warrants for wire taps and data retrieval will be at the behest of Ministers and not the judiciary. Handing the executive investigation powers seems absolutely incompatible with a free and fair democracy.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    It would also mean you could phone up the webmaster of nhs.uk and ask the for the log records in relation to the person you are interested in, and that person not wanting and hassle from the law would almost certainly send them to you, therefore giving you full access to that persons browsing on the site without any nasty problems like accountability.

    Hang on, the plod would need a warrant to do that, and if the webmaster gave them the info without a warrant he'd be committing a criminal offence. At least that's my understanding.
    They don't even need a warrent to hack into your PC.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/new-powers-for-police-to-hack-your-pc-1225802.html
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Knowing how many requests for warrants vs warrants granted would be fascinating - it is a rubber stamp or not?
    MaxPB said:

    Has the warrant issuing problem been resolved or is it still political? A lot of what is proposed makes me uncomfortable, but I can see some of the logic, what makes me oppose it is the fact that warrants for wire taps and data retrieval will be at the behest of Ministers and not the judiciary. Handing the executive investigation powers seems absolutely incompatible with a free and fair democracy.

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    Cyclefree said:

    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.

    I think if you were looking at the 'how to build an atomic bomb from regular everyday household chemicals' page then the police might suddenly develop an interest. But as long as we stick to 'Mary Berry' then you will probably find the police have better things to do.
    When it comes to thought police I do concede we have something to worry about.
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    MaxPB said:

    Has the warrant issuing problem been resolved or is it still political? A lot of what is proposed makes me uncomfortable, but I can see some of the logic, what makes me oppose it is the fact that warrants for wire taps and data retrieval will be at the behest of Ministers and not the judiciary. Handing the executive investigation powers seems absolutely incompatible with a free and fair democracy.

    Yes, it's been addressed. The Home Secretary and a judge both have to approve before the powers can be used (there's provision for Home Sec only in urgent cases, but a judge still has to approve within 5 days).
  • Options

    Knowing how many requests for warrants vs warrants granted would be fascinating - it is a rubber stamp or not?

    MaxPB said:

    Has the warrant issuing problem been resolved or is it still political? A lot of what is proposed makes me uncomfortable, but I can see some of the logic, what makes me oppose it is the fact that warrants for wire taps and data retrieval will be at the behest of Ministers and not the judiciary. Handing the executive investigation powers seems absolutely incompatible with a free and fair democracy.

    Mrs May personally authorised 2,345 interception and property warrants last year – almost 10 every working day.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    As regards VPNs, you know what? I have a sneaking suspicion that GCHQ might have thought of that. It never ceases to amaze me that people with zero knowledge of surveillance think they know more than the spooks about what is effective.

    I don't really worry too much about the Spooks having access to my data or generally people's data, their remit is quite narrow and I tend to trust them to stay within it, what I worry about is this Bill giving power to local plods and council busybodies access to data and information they previously would have struggled to get. Additionally I have grave concerns about the issue of warrants by the executive rather than judiciary. Giving politically motivated people the power of investigation is a recipe for disaster, you may trust this lot, but I don't and I certainly wouldn't trust any future Labour home secretary with this kind of power.
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    Indigo said:
    That's a 2011 article
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    One of my favourite stories of the powers that be using twisty legal definitions to get around safeguards (though I cannot vouchsafe that it is true) is that when using drones in the USA the phrase 'imminent threat' is defined in such a way that a person need not be imminently about to do anything specific at all. People find a way to do what they want or think they need to, and if it is not legal will make it arguably legal at least, I am sure.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015

    Cyclefree said:

    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.

    I think if you were looking at the 'how to build an atomic bomb from regular everyday household chemicals' page then the police might suddenly develop an interest. But as long as we stick to 'Mary Berry' then you will probably find the police have better things to do.
    When it comes to thought police I do concede we have something to worry about.
    Do you really think that, especially after Snowdon, somebody with the intellectual capacity to build a substantial explosive device and plan an attack, is just whacking that stuff into google from their own pc on an unencrypted connection?
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    kle4 said:

    Ugly prospects, to be sure. I feel for them. They barely scraped my vote this time, but I want more parties to have decent numbers in parliament not less, and with UKIP facing their well known difficulties breaking through despite far better national poll numbers than the LDs, the Greens nowhere as usual, PC limited in scope and the SNP already having achieved dominance, the LDs are the only other option to be a strong party in Parliament, but there are so few areas that are ready to be won back with even a decent revival. They need miracles to win, at present, or they need a good result to hold and barely build on 2015, to try for a bigger push in 2025.

    There seems little they can do, barring that poll revival the piece mentions they need just sort of happening from pure chance.

    I thnk the PB Commentariat is being unduly pessimistic. Labour have a leader that most of its MPs do not want - so there is very prospect of the Labour Party falling to bits.

    The Tories are horribly divided by the question of the EU - so much so that Cameron does not even dare to reveal what he is trying to negotiate. Once this becomes apparent, surely the Conservative Party will also fall to bits.

    Meanwhile, the Lib Dems are reasonably united and beavering away to build up their election-winning machine again. In some places more than others, perhaps - but local government byelections have not been as totally grim as the PB Commentariat would have us believe - far from it! - and all the signs are that there is considerate enthusiasm and commitment for the excellent Jane Brophy´s campaign in Oldham.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    MaxPB said:

    As regards VPNs, you know what? I have a sneaking suspicion that GCHQ might have thought of that. It never ceases to amaze me that people with zero knowledge of surveillance think they know more than the spooks about what is effective.

    I don't really worry too much about the Spooks having access to my data or generally people's data, their remit is quite narrow and I tend to trust them to stay within it, what I worry about is this Bill giving power to local plods and council busybodies access to data and information they previously would have struggled to get. Additionally I have grave concerns about the issue of warrants by the executive rather than judiciary. Giving politically motivated people the power of investigation is a recipe for disaster, you may trust this lot, but I don't and I certainly wouldn't trust any future Labour home secretary with this kind of power.
    I don't want any Home Secretary to have that power, let alone the bloody fools from the Local Authority.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Has the warrant issuing problem been resolved or is it still political? A lot of what is proposed makes me uncomfortable, but I can see some of the logic, what makes me oppose it is the fact that warrants for wire taps and data retrieval will be at the behest of Ministers and not the judiciary. Handing the executive investigation powers seems absolutely incompatible with a free and fair democracy.

    Yes, it's been addressed. The Home Secretary and a judge both have to approve before the powers can be used (there's provision for Home Sec only in urgent cases, but a judge still has to approve within 5 days).
    Well in that case I'm less worried but I hope the "urgent cases" don't come around too often and the power would only be used in extremis, i.e. after or during a terrorist attack.
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    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid. It is bloody dangerous.
    How about being blown up by terrorists? Is there some extremely clever reason why you consider it a good idea to allow terrorists and other criminals unfettered access to the internet and mobile phone network to plot their activities?
    International terrorists with half a brain aren't accessing the internet without a certain level of "protection", certainly not in a way that recording ISP level traffic would do anything to stop.

    This law will do nothing to change how they operate, if anything it will just make them more careful. The spooks can already access TOR and VPN traffic and I don't have a problem with that. But to do so, they have to do some leg work. This bill has nothing to do with this.

    It is a totally different thing for GCHQ to spy on a terrorist like that, than a whole host of other agencies looking at people general internet traffic.
    So if 99.9999% are law abiding, how would the police or whoever spending time spying on say you help anybody?
    Is there anything to be gleaned by the police from knowing how terminally thick we all are for wasting our time on PBdotcom?
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I'm sure CSI Cyber is required viewing for such amateur types as a minimum.

    I confess to watching thousands of hours of forensic dramas/docus - my history would make me a person of interest if any of my acquaintances were murdered!

    Cyclefree said:

    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.

    I think if you were looking at the 'how to build an atomic bomb from regular everyday household chemicals' page then the police might suddenly develop an interest. But as long as we stick to 'Mary Berry' then you will probably find the police have better things to do.
    When it comes to thought police I do concede we have something to worry about.
    Do you really think that, especially after Snowdon, somebody with the intellectual capacity to build a substantial explosive device and plan an attack, is just whacking that stuff into google from their own pc on an unencrypted connection?
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    As regards VPNs, you know what? I have a sneaking suspicion that GCHQ might have thought of that. It never ceases to amaze me that people with zero knowledge of surveillance think they know more than the spooks about what is effective.

    You know what, I think they probably do, but since the effort required to break into one done properly is quite substantial, its only going to be done for "people of interest" and plod wanting to go on a fishing expedition is going to be told to go and take a hike.

    The larger point you are completely missing is the ISP wont have the facilities or the inclination to crack VPN end points, never mind try and unravel a TOR for every request received for every use, which is what will go in their logs. When the spooks or rozzers come along and ask for the details for a users traffic and get told its lots of encrypted VPN traffic and damn all else, THEN the spooks can set up the infrastructure to tap that persons communications and crack the VPN open, but the historical record will be worthless.

    Possibly there are people around that know more about information security than you give them credit for.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:
    That's a 2011 article
    And it's still the case.
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    MaxPB said:

    Well in that case I'm less worried but I hope the "urgent cases" don't come around too often and the power would only be used in extremis, i.e. after or during a terrorist attack.

    MPs should ask Theresa May how many are expected to be 'urgent cases'. The government must have an idea from experience over the last few years.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    PClipp said:

    kle4 said:

    Ugly prospects, to be sure. I feel for them. They barely scraped my vote this time, but I want more parties to have decent numbers in parliament not less, and with UKIP facing their well known difficulties breaking through despite far better national poll numbers than the LDs, the Greens nowhere as usual, PC limited in scope and the SNP already having achieved dominance, the LDs are the only other option to be a strong party in Parliament, but there are so few areas that are ready to be won back with even a decent revival. They need miracles to win, at present, or they need a good result to hold and barely build on 2015, to try for a bigger push in 2025.

    There seems little they can do, barring that poll revival the piece mentions they need just sort of happening from pure chance.

    I thnk the PB Commentariat is being unduly pessimistic. Labour have a leader that most of its MPs do not want - so there is very prospect of the Labour Party falling to bits.

    The Tories are horribly divided by the question of the EU - so much so that Cameron does not even dare to reveal what he is trying to negotiate. Once this becomes apparent, surely the Conservative Party will also fall to bits.

    Meanwhile, the Lib Dems are reasonably united and beavering away to build up their election-winning machine again. In some places more than others, perhaps - but local government byelections have not been as totally grim as the PB Commentariat would have us believe - far from it! - and all the signs are that there is considerate enthusiasm and commitment for the excellent Jane Brophy´s campaign in Oldham.
    I wish your team well, but I do feel obligated to point out that the PBCommentariat, I believe, overestimated how well the LDs would do in 2015, in fact they were generous to their propsects. Doesn't mean the pessimism about their chances now is correct of course, but it's not as though that pessimism has been the default reaction.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited November 2015
    Cheers Antifrank, things certainly look grim for the LDs – are there no positives?

    [Edit - apart from enriching the treasury]
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Fixed that for you

    Cheers Antifrank, things certainly look grim for the LDs – are there no positives? :lol:

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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited November 2015

    As regards VPNs, you know what? I have a sneaking suspicion that GCHQ might have thought of that. It never ceases to amaze me that people with zero knowledge of surveillance think they know more than the spooks about what is effective.

    We are wasting a lot of money on GCHQ if it does not know how to break codes.That's is business. Given the dangerous world we live in, one where mad crazy irrational numpties have easy access to nasty dirty chemical radio active substances then I would hope the likes of GCHQ are doing all that have to and more to keep track of what is going on.
    Of course there are only a few of these nutjobs but it only takes one. I suspect they are laughingtheir socks off at the naïve stupidity of the sanctimonious free-for-all apologists.
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    Indigo said:

    Possibly there are people around that know more about information security than you give them credit for.

    Knowing about information security is not the same as knowing about surveillance, and in particular what is effective in surveillance.
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    Cyclefree said:

    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.

    I think if you were looking at the 'how to build an atomic bomb from regular everyday household chemicals' page then the police might suddenly develop an interest. But as long as we stick to 'Mary Berry' then you will probably find the police have better things to do.
    When it comes to thought police I do concede we have something to worry about.
    Do you really think that, especially after Snowdon, somebody with the intellectual capacity to build a substantial explosive device and plan an attack, is just whacking that stuff into google from their own pc on an unencrypted connection?
    Experience says yes.

    Criminals of all kinds do stupid things.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited November 2015
    To give some wider context to the debate on internet data gathering:

    What is been requested is currently used by most large companies to monitor traffic (esp. in industries like financial services where there is pretty much a requirement for it). Companies can also have a 'spyware' agent on your computer that reports back on activity when you're not at work. See http://www.spector360.com/ if you want to be scared at what your IT department can do, yes it can be set to make a screenshot every 10 seconds and yes it does record keystrokes and report back in real time!

    Internet logging systems are also used in other countries which the UK likes to talk about in negative terms with regard to personal freedoms.
    This is a system that I currently have to deal with:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etisalat#Internet_censorship
    It's accepted where I am now that there are limits to certain freedoms that in the UK we think of as normal. Parents and employers, on the other hand, love especially the blocking systems. Parents are much more concerned with trying to get the BBC iPlayer working, they're quite happy that their kids are protected from 99% of the bad stuff on the internet.

    One difference between here and the UK is that the ISPs are really quite open about the blocking and monitoring - if you go to a banned site you get redirected to a page explaining that your requested site is blocked. Compare this to the UK "Cleanfeed" system which is supposed to be only for blocking known child abuse websites, but is completely transparent and just doesn't return anything. How do we know what else is being blocked by this?

    It's an interesting debate that's to be had, my personal view is that other countries look up to the UK to be leaders in the rights of individuals, that is something not to be underestimated. It is coming up in casual discussions in other countries, that if the UK allows this collection and monitoring of personal data then it must be OK for everyone to do it.

    In the UK this logging of traffic should only be for spooks looking at issues of national security. Police investigating a murder or misper can already access relevant suspects' computers, which unless they are very careful to hide their tracks will usually reveal what is required.
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    PClipp said:

    In some places more than others, perhaps - but local government byelections have not been as totally grim as the PB Commentariat would have us believe - far from it! - and all the signs are that there is considerate enthusiasm and commitment for the excellent Jane Brophy´s campaign in Oldham.

    That's a keeper.

    Incidentally, I voted Lib Dem in May, so I don't want anyone getting the idea that I've got a downer on a party that I disapprove of.
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    Cheers Antifrank, things certainly look grim for the LDs – are there no positives?

    [Edit - apart from enriching the treasury]

    The Lib Dems need to give some of the public a reason to support them. The mere absence of any opposition in the centre ground is insufficient: they need a positive cause to call their own.

    If I were being helpful, I might suggest that they try to take charge of the Remain campaign. Neither of the main parties seem too anxious to own it.
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    Cyclefree said:

    On the Investigative Powers stuff, the police spokeswoman this morning was trying to pretend that having access to browsing history is the same as telephone data. She was talking to nonsense of course. If I know the site I can see exactly what the person was looking at which is rather more information than you get from knowing that Person A rang Person B at this time for this many minutes.

    It's not metadata anymore. It's substantive information.

    I think if you were looking at the 'how to build an atomic bomb from regular everyday household chemicals' page then the police might suddenly develop an interest. But as long as we stick to 'Mary Berry' then you will probably find the police have better things to do.
    When it comes to thought police I do concede we have something to worry about.
    Do you really think that, especially after Snowdon, somebody with the intellectual capacity to build a substantial explosive device and plan an attack, is just whacking that stuff into google from their own pc on an unencrypted connection?
    Experience says yes.

    Criminals of all kinds do stupid things.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34062688

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/17/four-men-charged-terror-arrests-london

    etc
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    Andy_JS said:

    I can't believe how stupid the Tories and Theresa May are being with the Snooper's Charter.

    It is worse than stupid. It is bloody dangerous.
    How about being blown up by terrorists? Is there some extremely clever reason why you consider it a good idea to allow terrorists and other criminals unfettered access to the internet and mobile phone network to plot their activities?
    International terrorists with half a brain aren't accessing the internet without a certain level of "protection", certainly not in a way that recording ISP level traffic would do anything to stop.

    This law will do nothing to change how they operate, if anything it will just make them more careful. The spooks can already access TOR and VPN traffic and I don't have a problem with that. But to do so, they have to do some leg work. This bill has nothing to do with this.

    It is a totally different thing for GCHQ to spy on a terrorist like that, than a whole host of other agencies looking at people general internet traffic.
    So if 99.9999% are law abiding, how would the police or whoever spending time spying on say you help anybody?
    Is there anything to be gleaned by the police from knowing how terminally thick we all are for wasting our time on PBdotcom?
    Why do they even need the opportunity from such widescale powers to glean that?Comments like that suppose embarrassment is behind the objection, but it really isn't.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    As regards VPNs, you know what? I have a sneaking suspicion that GCHQ might have thought of that. It never ceases to amaze me that people with zero knowledge of surveillance think they know more than the spooks about what is effective.

    We are wasting a lot of money on GCHQ if it does not know how to break codes.That's is business. Given the dangerous world we live in, one where mad crazy irrational numpties have easy access to nasty dirty chemical radio active substances then I would hope the likes of GCHQ are doing all that have to and more to keep track of what is going on.
    Of course there are only a few of these nutjobs but it only takes one. I suspect they are laughingtheir socks off at the naïve stupidity of the sanctimonious free-for-all apologists.
    Do you feel better after that rant ?

    Now back to the real world. Intelligence officials are on record as saying the problem isn't breaking the codes (with one or two notable exceptions) the problem is knowing which bit of encoded traffic to break. It all takes time, breaking a heavily encrypted message could take several hours or days of effort from a very expensive computer, they are not going to do it unless they have a reasonable assumption that the result is going to be worth the cost. Breaking encryption on billions of messages, on the off chance that a few of the might be useful isn't on the cards.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Is one of the 'intended' consequences of the data gathering to make it an environment in which any nefarious data exchanges and transmission will be done under the radar, with security and care in a way that is hidden from authority? After all, you can't do your illegal business in the open, it is all monitored.

    As such the spooks can disregards the 90% of traffic that we all transmit on our daily business and concentrate efforts on the content that the originator is try to disguise and hide.

    It should make the targeting effort much easier and more accurate for the spooks leaving them free to ignore most of the innocent traffic.
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