The front page of BBC News right now has comments by an Australian media mogul on the racial background of the US president as a more important story than our government sending troops to the Baltic. I can't work out whether it's their obsession with America or their obsession with political correctness that is causing it.
I can't wait for Comrade Corbyn to refuse to wear white tie - Gordon made himself look like Kevin The Teenager for turning up in a lounge suit.
Gordon Brown has broken a habit of a lifetime by wearing white tie to the state banquet at Buckingham Palace in honour of the visiting King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
The Prime Minister's purchase of a £3,000 bespoke suit from Gieves & Hawkes marks the end of his decade-long refusal to dress up for formal occasions, most notably his annual Mansion House address to City of London luminaries.
I wonder if Corbyns Diary for today will be leaked..
Is he going to find himself equally 'busy' whenever an event comes up that doesn't interest him? Remembrance Day, State Opening of Parliament, State banquets for visiting heads of state etc etc.
Baby steps Ms Plato - let's start by getting him into a lounge suit that fits, a shirt with a top button and a tie that he knows how to do up.
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
Britain must back deeper integration of the European Union or quit altogether, Francois Hollande, the French president, declared on Wednesday night.
During furious exchanges with Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, Mr Hollande said British voters who do not like the idea of a “strengthened” EU must take the “logical path” of Brexit.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
Quite apart from the ridiculous "leave democracy", Britain isn't in Schengen. It's astounding that the French president is so ignorant.
I suspect there has been a mistranslation
He probably meant something like "if you don't want to accept the democratic wishes of the majority then leave"
Then why not translate it as such. It's not difficult. Usually at these things both sides have translators. One wonders how Farage was translated. It's bad enough English to English.
I can't wait for Comrade Corbyn to refuse to wear white tie - Gordon made himself look like Kevin The Teenager for turning up in a lounge suit.
Gordon Brown has broken a habit of a lifetime by wearing white tie to the state banquet at Buckingham Palace in honour of the visiting King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
The Prime Minister's purchase of a £3,000 bespoke suit from Gieves & Hawkes marks the end of his decade-long refusal to dress up for formal occasions, most notably his annual Mansion House address to City of London luminaries.
I wonder if Corbyns Diary for today will be leaked..
Is he going to find himself equally 'busy' whenever an event comes up that doesn't interest him? Remembrance Day, State Opening of Parliament, State banquets for visiting heads of state etc etc.
Baby steps Ms Plato - let's start by getting him into a lounge suit that fits, a shirt with a top button and a tie that he knows how to do up.
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
Support for both Scotland’s main parties eased by two percentage points over the past month. The SNP now stands at 56% with Labour on 21%, the Conservatives are unchanged on 12% and the Liberal Democrats up one point at 6%
List
Among those who expressed a preference, 52% intended to vote SNP (up one percentage point) with Labour on 23% (-1), the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats unchanged on 11% and 6% respectively and the Greens on 5% (-1).
If this is the choice on the table, we should leave.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
I think France expects us to give up our opt-out after a time period. It's like Wolfgang Schaube the other day expected us to eventually join the Euro.
You wonder who briefs these people. The chances of Britain joining the Euro are roughly the same as the Church of England joining the Roman Catholic church.
You would hope they might get the picture after Cameron's renegotiation push. What does he talk to them about? You'd think if they're the top people trying to keep the UK in the EU, then they might make the effort to have some basic familiarity with the UK context.
Britain must back deeper integration of the European Union or quit altogether, Francois Hollande, the French president, declared on Wednesday night.
During furious exchanges with Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, Mr Hollande said British voters who do not like the idea of a “strengthened” EU must take the “logical path” of Brexit.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
Its almost like there is a negotiation going and tactics are being used.....
Expect a few more "tiffs" during the process.
Government negotiators hear: usual type of hardball negotiations Rest of the British public hear: insulting, overbearing, condescending, patronising.
I can't wait for Comrade Corbyn to refuse to wear white tie - Gordon made himself look like Kevin The Teenager for turning up in a lounge suit.
Gordon Brown has broken a habit of a lifetime by wearing white tie to the state banquet at Buckingham Palace in honour of the visiting King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
The Prime Minister's purchase of a £3,000 bespoke suit from Gieves & Hawkes marks the end of his decade-long refusal to dress up for formal occasions, most notably his annual Mansion House address to City of London luminaries.
I wonder if Corbyns Diary for today will be leaked..
Is he going to find himself equally 'busy' whenever an event comes up that doesn't interest him? Remembrance Day, State Opening of Parliament, State banquets for visiting heads of state etc etc.
Baby steps Ms Plato - let's start by getting him into a lounge suit that fits, a shirt with a top button and a tie that he knows how to do up.
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
Vivienne Westwood is presumably a fan of his, given her past publicly stated views. She should volunteer her services.
Corbyn: He seems to consistently behave like a fool, I must therefore conclude that he is one and therefore of no consequence.
Cameron: The sensible time for him to go is 2017 after the referendum in either a blaze of glory or resigned sadness but leaving his successor clear of any blame. His successor will not be George Osbourne.
Britain must back deeper integration of the European Union or quit altogether, Francois Hollande, the French president, declared on Wednesday night.
During furious exchanges with Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, Mr Hollande said British voters who do not like the idea of a “strengthened” EU must take the “logical path” of Brexit.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
Quite apart from the ridiculous "leave democracy", Britain isn't in Schengen. It's astounding that the French president is so ignorant.
I suspect there has been a mistranslation
He probably meant something like "if you don't want to accept the democratic wishes of the majority then leave"
It was the official translator that said it. Genuine question. Is it common for them to make mistakes?
Words are easy. Meanings are hard.
I know a translator at the international criminal court... seems like a tough gig to me!
That can't be an easy gig at all. Lots of double checking required before publishing anything, and the live translation at meetings and hearings very difficult indeed to avoid the occasional mistake in the legalese spoken by those present.
If this is the choice on the table, we should leave.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
I think France expects us to give up our opt-out after a time period. It's like Wolfgang Schaube the other day expected us to eventually join the Euro.
You wonder who briefs these people. The chances of Britain joining the Euro are roughly the same as the Church of England joining the Roman Catholic church.
There's actually probably a higher chance of the latter.
I can't wait for Comrade Corbyn to refuse to wear white tie - Gordon made himself look like Kevin The Teenager for turning up in a lounge suit.
Gordon Brown has broken a habit of a lifetime by wearing white tie to the state banquet at Buckingham Palace in honour of the visiting King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
The Prime Minister's purchase of a £3,000 bespoke suit from Gieves & Hawkes marks the end of his decade-long refusal to dress up for formal occasions, most notably his annual Mansion House address to City of London luminaries.
I wonder if Corbyns Diary for today will be leaked..
Is he going to find himself equally 'busy' whenever an event comes up that doesn't interest him? Remembrance Day, State Opening of Parliament, State banquets for visiting heads of state etc etc.
Baby steps Ms Plato - let's start by getting him into a lounge suit that fits, a shirt with a top button and a tie that he knows how to do up.
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
Vivienne Westwood is presumably a fan of his, given her past publicly stated views. She should volunteer her services.
She is quite brilliant at her job.
Call in Katharine Hamnett - a suit made of white feathers, with a big 'Jezzer Says No' logo on the back.
Whatever the answer, hiding behind a diary clash and having to explain why you are too busy to see the most popular women in the country, makes him look less like Stalin and more like a great, big scaredy cat.
Indeed, it becomes ever more apparent, as Corbyn ties himself in knots, attempting to reconcile his agit-prop 1970s hard left principles with the demands of leadership, that the man is a complete twit.
He said he did not get any post election 'bounce' because his election came on 910. Seems not unreasonable. What is interesting is his claim that Blair 'milked' the subsequent wars for 'all he was worth'.
I can't wait for Comrade Corbyn to refuse to wear white tie - Gordon made himself look like Kevin The Teenager for turning up in a lounge suit.
Gordon Brown has broken a habit of a lifetime by wearing white tie to the state banquet at Buckingham Palace in honour of the visiting King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
The Prime Minister's purchase of a £3,000 bespoke suit from Gieves & Hawkes marks the end of his decade-long refusal to dress up for formal occasions, most notably his annual Mansion House address to City of London luminaries.
I wonder if Corbyns Diary for today will be leaked..
Is he going to find himself equally 'busy' whenever an event comes up that doesn't interest him? Remembrance Day, State Opening of Parliament, State banquets for visiting heads of state etc etc.
Baby steps Ms Plato - let's start by getting him into a lounge suit that fits, a shirt with a top button and a tie that he knows how to do up.
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
Vivienne Westwood is presumably a fan of his, given her past publicly stated views. She should volunteer her services.
She is quite brilliant at her job. Ha, I wonder if there is, lying around somwhere in the PB archive, a photograph of one of our esteemed number attending a big personal occasion while dressed in such a designer's suit.....?
What's really weird about that was that I thought Perseus (and even double-checked on wikipedia that I'd remembered it right) and then wrote Theseus. And it's only on you quoting it that I realised my mistake. Obviously there's some loose wiring up top.
I know this is going to inflame Tory euro-sceptic, but pro-EU friends - who I think are patriots and sincere in thinking its in our economic interest to stay - but this is where I'm at: I now think it's as insane to stay in the EU as it was to join the euro 15 years ago. And it's going to get worse.
The EU is nowhere near offering us the "single market only" deal with UK non-eurozone protection, as most Brits want.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
If the LOTO is not briefed on National Security matters how can he guide his party through any subsequent debate on those matters if he is not aware of the inside information..Should his party then abstain and also should the speaker decline to call any of that Party s members to speak..will the Labour MPs so affected voice concerns about this.
If he is not completely dumb then it might be that he is going to claim that signing the official secrets act should be enough to get him access and challenge any decision to deny him access to papers in court.
During the meeting Merkel also said EU leaders should be open to considering important treaty changes if they want the Union to “evolve.” According to MEPs and officials, Merkel also said during the meeting that the EU treaties should be changed “if necessary” to deal with important issues.
This will be an imperative for the EU negotiation. Given the way the EU rolled back on their agreement with the UK on the EFSF, we can't trust anything that's not binding.
Mrs Merkel hears some hometruths. Gives a look to the assembled drones at 1:16 that Henry2 would have recognised ( 'Who will rid me of this turbulent etc') .
Her conf speech didn't have any content, I find this mystifying. You get a huge platform to set out your stall and say nothing bar wishy-washy platitudes.
If this is the choice on the table, we should leave.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
I think France expects us to give up our opt-out after a time period. It's like Wolfgang Schaube the other day expected us to eventually join the Euro.
You wonder who briefs these people. The chances of Britain joining the Euro are roughly the same as the Church of England joining the Roman Catholic church.
You would hope they might get the picture after Cameron's renegotiation push. What does he talk to them about? You'd think if they're the top people trying to keep the UK in the EU, then they might make the effort to have some basic familiarity with the UK context.
Depends on whether they actually believe Cameron is serious or if they already know he will recommend Remain no matter what they don't agree to.
I know this is going to inflame Tory euro-sceptic, but pro-EU friends - who I think are patriots and sincere in thinking its in our economic interest to stay - but this is where I'm at: I now think it's as insane to stay in the EU as it was to join the euro 15 years ago. And it's going to get worse.
The EU is nowhere near offering us the "single market only" deal with UK non-eurozone protection, as most Brits want.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I agree with you.
Out of my Tory friends who I met up with at conference, it is no shock to say I'm the most Pro EU out of the lot of us, and most of them were outers. But they've cooled a bit, mostly on the economic uncertainty grounds that Brexit would mean whilst I've moved the other way (as discussed some of it was down to them not wanting Farage to be on the winning side)
To win this, it's going to be out the economy stupid.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 6m6 minutes ago Just watching a re-run of the first half of Germany v Brazil. Germans are 5 nil up. I think they're looking a bit rattled.
If this is the choice on the table, we should leave.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
I think France expects us to give up our opt-out after a time period. It's like Wolfgang Schaube the other day expected us to eventually join the Euro.
You wonder who briefs these people. The chances of Britain joining the Euro are roughly the same as the Church of England joining the Roman Catholic church.
Bad analogy. You are talking about the Church of England there.
Britain must back deeper integration of the European Union or quit altogether, Francois Hollande, the French president, declared on Wednesday night.
During furious exchanges with Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, Mr Hollande said British voters who do not like the idea of a “strengthened” EU must take the “logical path” of Brexit.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
Quite apart from the ridiculous "leave democracy", Britain isn't in Schengen. It's astounding that the French president is so ignorant.
I suspect there has been a mistranslation
He probably meant something like "if you don't want to accept the democratic wishes of the majority then leave"
It was the official translator that said it. Genuine question. Is it common for them to make mistakes?
I don't know about official translators in the EU but anyone who has had to do business through a translator will have stories of how what they said and what the translator said were seriously at odds and the misunderstandings that then resulted.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
If this is the choice on the table, we should leave.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
I think France expects us to give up our opt-out after a time period. It's like Wolfgang Schaube the other day expected us to eventually join the Euro.
You wonder who briefs these people. The chances of Britain joining the Euro are roughly the same as the Church of England joining the Roman Catholic church.
There's actually probably a higher chance of the latter.
That's whats going to make the EU referendum interesting......most of the Stayers will have been proponents of the Euro.....I'm sure there's a vault full of quotes being trawled through.....
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I'm sorry Casino Royale, but I do think this is verging on the vacuous.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
I have signed it myself and whilst it might appear vacuous it was enough to make sure that I was very careful about what I said to people. The threat of prosecution was more than enough to keep me in line.
Mrs Merkel hears some hometruths. Gives a look to the assembled drones at 1:16 that Henry2 would have recognised ( 'Who will rid me of this turbulent etc') .
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
If this is the choice on the table, we should leave.
“There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."
I think France expects us to give up our opt-out after a time period. It's like Wolfgang Schaube the other day expected us to eventually join the Euro.
You wonder who briefs these people. The chances of Britain joining the Euro are roughly the same as the Church of England joining the Roman Catholic church.
You would hope they might get the picture after Cameron's renegotiation push. What does he talk to them about? You'd think if they're the top people trying to keep the UK in the EU, then they might make the effort to have some basic familiarity with the UK context.
Depends on whether they actually believe Cameron is serious or if they already know he will recommend Remain no matter what they don't agree to.
I'm not so sure. Osborne might do so, but Cameron seems slightly more open minded. IMO if he can't get an opt out to ever closer union then it is very possible he will recommend Out.
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
The process is merely a reminder. You're bound by it whether you've signed it or not.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
Mrs Merkel hears some hometruths. Gives a look to the assembled drones at 1:16 that Henry2 would have recognised ( 'Who will rid me of this turbulent etc') .
That actually was quite a good speech. Much as I dislike Farage, that was one of his better performances.
The problem Farage has is that he's unwilling to ever admit a mistake. He would do the Brexit cause considerable benefit if he simply gave an interview saying that he sometimes gets carried away in arguments and, in hindsight, regrets some of his comments.
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
A spokesman for Mr Corbyn claimed that Mr Cameron's comments show that he is "rattled by the re-energisation of the Labour Party".
I'm sure the Tories and the PM are so completely rattled at having no credible opposition. So very rattled indeed. Any opinion polls this weekend will show the extent of the "re-energisation" of Labour - 45-25..??
More 'Different Politics' from the SNP.......a few days after awarding a contract, due to be awarded before the May 2015 GE to the B@stard English lowest bidder, they announce a delay on fracking in Scotland until after the Holyrood 2016 elections appropriate consultation:
Party conference season: What are people saying about the parties? People's search habits reveal interesting thoughts on the political landscape - with the public asking about Labour's defence policy and who the leader of the Lib Dems is
Why does Jeremy Corbyn hate the Britain and the Queen?
What's his next trick, admitting to cheering for Australia during the Ashes?
Usually people with visceral loathing of others are just projecting their inner feelings about themselves outward. Shouting your self-dislike at others helps drown the inner voices out so you do not have to face your inner demons.
Mrs Merkel hears some hometruths. Gives a look to the assembled drones at 1:16 that Henry2 would have recognised ( 'Who will rid me of this turbulent etc') .
That actually was quite a good speech. Much as I dislike Farage, that was one of his better performances.
The problem Farage has is that he's unwilling to ever admit a mistake. He would do the Brexit cause considerable benefit if he simply gave an interview saying that he sometimes gets carried away in arguments and, in hindsight, regrets some of his comments.
If that was Farage's only problem I would be a much happier man. The best thing he could do to help Brexit would be to say he didn't feel he was the right person to lead and would work in support of someone else.
Not a cat in hells chance of it actually happening though.
Party conference season: What are people saying about the parties? People's search habits reveal interesting thoughts on the political landscape - with the public asking about Labour's defence policy and who the leader of the Lib Dems is
Not sure what criteria they used to define the LibDems as one of the three main parties.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
Even if you believe this sort of stuff, it does your side no good at all. Many of the people you need to persuade to win the referendum are people who were once pro-EU, or who are currently supporters of politicians that are pro-EU.
Saying these things makes these people think "Leavers think I used to be a traitor, or that great politician I like is a traitor". I'm sure there's some fine distinction you probably have for why you don't think that, but that's not what people hear when they see your odd comment in passing.
You are completely undoing the persuasive efforts of people like Casino_Royale and Sean_F.
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
He should have been in the big league when he stood for the leadership. Bizarrely no-one really brought all this up until most of the electorate had voted. It's obvious why the right-wing media were sitting on their hands, but where were the attacks in the Guardian, Indy and Mirror, and the condemnation from Burnham, Cooper and Kendall?
So it seems the big league is only when you play with the Tories (and the SNP). About right, looking at the political landscape today.
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
I have signed it myself and whilst it might appear vacuous it was enough to make sure that I was very careful about what I said to people. The threat of prosecution was more than enough to keep me in line.
As was explained to me when I joined the Home Office, signing the Official Secrets Act is a piece of meaningless flummery the only purpose of which is to remind people who may come into contact with classified information that they may be prosecuted if they do not deal with it correctly. The offences in the Act actually apply to everyone, whether they have signed the Act or not. Furthermore, the mere signing of the Act conveys no authority to be the recipient of classified information.
Of course who can see what is always a matter of need to know. The fact that someone has been vetted to a degree does not mean that they can never be allowed to be told of information above their normal classification, only that they may not be allowed to routinely handle such information. So someone who has no "security clearance" may still be told of stuff that is formally classified as Restricted, Secret or even higher - if it is judged that they do need to know. The corollary is also true a person with very high clearance should never be informed of even low grade classified information if they do not need to know it in order to discharge their duties.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
Well, I can think of some differences.
We'll catch more flies with honey than with acid.
We'll you'll catch more flies with manure than with either honey or acid.
Mrs Merkel hears some hometruths. Gives a look to the assembled drones at 1:16 that Henry2 would have recognised ( 'Who will rid me of this turbulent etc') .
That actually was quite a good speech. Much as I dislike Farage, that was one of his better performances.
The problem Farage has is that he's unwilling to ever admit a mistake. He would do the Brexit cause considerable benefit if he simply gave an interview saying that he sometimes gets carried away in arguments and, in hindsight, regrets some of his comments.
He also needs to rid himself of some of the nuttier elements that have attached their bandwagon to his and it would be better if he made up is mind to stay leader or resign. His "personality cult" style of leadership is good for a few seconds amusement on the 6 o'clock news, but hardly reassuring in terms of effectiveness for UKIP.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
Even if you believe this sort of stuff, it does your side no good at all. Many of the people you need to persuade to win the referendum are people who were once pro-EU, or who are currently supporters of politicians that are pro-EU.
Saying these things makes these people think "Leavers think I used to be a traitor, or that great politician I like is a traitor". I'm sure there's some fine distinction you probably have for why you don't think that, but that's not what people hear when they see your odd comment in passing.
You are completely undoing the persuasive efforts of people like Casino_Royale and Sean_F.
I have no interest in persuading people like TSE. Long ago we tried reasoned argument with him but he was more interested in petty party politics than real discussion of policy. If he has not changed his view by now in spite of what he has seen and heard about the EU then he is never going to. People like him who put party before country deserve all the opprobrium that can be heaped upon them.
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
Party conference season: What are people saying about the parties? People's search habits reveal interesting thoughts on the political landscape - with the public asking about Labour's defence policy and who the leader of the Lib Dems is
Not sure what criteria they used to define the LibDems as one of the three main parties.
Party conference season: What are people saying about the parties? People's search habits reveal interesting thoughts on the political landscape - with the public asking about Labour's defence policy and who the leader of the Lib Dems is
Not sure what criteria they used to define the LibDems as one of the three main parties.
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
I have signed it myself and whilst it might appear vacuous it was enough to make sure that I was very careful about what I said to people. The threat of prosecution was more than enough to keep me in line.
As was explained to me when I joined the Home Office, signing the Official Secrets Act is a piece of meaningless flummery the only purpose of which is to remind people who may come into contact with classified information that they may be prosecuted if they do not deal with it correctly. The offences in the Act actually apply to everyone, whether they have signed the Act or not. Furthermore, the mere signing of the Act conveys no authority to be the recipient of classified information.
Of course who can see what is always a matter of need to know. The fact that someone has been vetted to a degree does not mean that they can never be allowed to be told of information above their normal classification, only that they may not be allowed to routinely handle such information. So someone who has no "security clearance" may still be told of stuff that is formally classified as Restricted, Secret or even higher - if it is judged that they do need to know. The corollary is also true a person with very high clearance should never be informed of even low grade classified information if they do not need to know it in order to discharge their duties.
I think I was far too far down the food chain to have anything like that explained to me. They just said that if I broke it then I would go to jail. Seemed a pretty effective technique to use on a newbie.
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
I have signed it myself and whilst it might appear vacuous it was enough to make sure that I was very careful about what I said to people. The threat of prosecution was more than enough to keep me in line.
As was explained to me when I joined the Home Office, signing the Official Secrets Act is a piece of meaningless flummery the only purpose of which is to remind people who may come into contact with classified information that they may be prosecuted if they do not deal with it correctly. The offences in the Act actually apply to everyone, whether they have signed the Act or not. Furthermore, the mere signing of the Act conveys no authority to be the recipient of classified information.
Of course who can see what is always a matter of need to know. The fact that someone has been vetted to a degree does not mean that they can never be allowed to be told of information above their normal classification, only that they may not be allowed to routinely handle such information. So someone who has no "security clearance" may still be told of stuff that is formally classified as Restricted, Secret or even higher - if it is judged that they do need to know. The corollary is also true a person with very high clearance should never be informed of even low grade classified information if they do not need to know it in order to discharge their duties.
Whoever would've guessed that Labour would miss Ed Miliband's leadership?
Mr Dancer, they have made their bed, now they have to lie in it. Perhaps they will learn from the idiocy of electing Corbyn? One can only hope so because we need effective opposition and, at present, Labour cannot provide it.
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
I have too. It is not sufficient to give me the sort of security clearance needed to receive intelligence briefings.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I'm sorry Casino Royale, but I do think this is verging on the vacuous.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
I think we're agreeing with each other - the problem is very clear (Remain) but the case for change (Leave) hasn't been made.
If it were, I think Leave could win by up to 65/35.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I about Tory female MPs .
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro ?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
Even if you believe this sort of stuff, it does your side no good at all. Many of the people you need to persuade to win the referendum are people who were once pro-EU, or who are currently supporters of politicians that are pro-EU.
Saying these things makes these people think "Leavers think I used to be a traitor, or that great politician I like is a traitor". I'm sure there's some fine distinction you probably have for why you don't think that, but that's not what people hear when they see your odd comment in passing.
You are completely undoing the persuasive efforts of people like Casino_Royale and Sean_F.
I have no interest in persuading people like TSE. Long ago we tried reasoned argument with him but he was more interested in petty party politics than real discussion of policy. If he has not changed his view by now in spite of what he has seen and heard about the EU then he is never going to. People like him who put party before country deserve all the opprobrium that can be heaped upon them.
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
Well as I've indicated on here I'm leaning towards voting to Leave.
The side that best persuades me that it is on our economic interests to remain or leave will get my vote.
Casino Royale has done a great job in helping me to change my mind from a firm remain to probable leave
RT..I don't know if any other PBers have signed the OSA..I have..it is a mighty burden to bear...almost meaningless actually... not too sure that claim by Corbyn would float with the Security Services...I certainly hope not.
I have too. It is not sufficient to give me the sort of security clearance needed to receive intelligence briefings.
I was warned that I was covered by it when I was working near cutting edge technology.... in 1985. I never signed it. We shared development areas next to projects developing sonar technology for UK submarines and that was enough. When I had to go into a Navy base I was warned verbally again.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
Even
I have no interest in persuading people like TSE. Long ago we tried reasoned argument with him but he was more interested in petty party politics than real discussion of policy. If he has not changed his view by now in spite of what he has seen and heard about the EU then he is never going to. People like him who put party before country deserve all the opprobrium that can be heaped upon them.
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
I don't think that's fair. Changing long-held views is a difficult and emotional process, it requires patience.
TSE has been very honest in mapping out what might swing his vote, and the terms on which he'd do it. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is seek to persuade them.
Off topic, I hear Nicky Morgan is on maneoveres but is also doomed to fail. She is the most europhile leadership candidate yet to show an interest.
I don't know what it is about Tory female MPs in marginal seats: Morgan, Soubry, Ellison and Sandys. They're all EUphile ideologues and sell-outs.
I don't know why Nicky Morgan thinks she could be leadership material.
Female Pro EU Tory Education Secretary has her leadership credentials written off.
Where have I heard that before?
Probably at a a time when the rest of the country was far more enthusiastic about the EU project and Tory Europhiles were more than just the insignificant quisling rump they are today.
Did you miss this week's poll that shows the Tories more Pro-EU than the country? (I concede this was probably an outlier)
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
TSE. As far as I am concerned the only difference between Pro EU Tories and Vichy France is that you are not led by a former war hero. Hence my use of Quisling's name instead.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
Arguments like that will be why Leave will lose. And then you and your like will blame someone - indeed everyone - else. Just like your Natnut equivalents.
Congratulations on winning today's Godwin though. Ironic really that you managed to combine that with a comment that eschewed emperical data in favour of a believing something to be true simply because you want it to be.
Mrs Merkel hears some hometruths. Gives a look to the assembled drones at 1:16 that Henry2 would have recognised ( 'Who will rid me of this turbulent etc') .
That actually was quite a good speech. Much as I dislike Farage, that was one of his better performances.
The problem Farage has is that he's unwilling to ever admit a mistake. He would do the Brexit cause considerable benefit if he simply gave an interview saying that he sometimes gets carried away in arguments and, in hindsight, regrets some of his comments.
I have no interest in persuading people like TSE. Long ago we tried reasoned argument with him but he was more interested in petty party politics than real discussion of policy. If he has not changed his view by now in spite of what he has seen and heard about the EU then he is never going to. People like him who put party before country deserve all the opprobrium that can be heaped upon them.
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
But you're not just informing the views of TSE. You're informing the views of everyone that reads your post, and everyone that hears you say similar things elsewhere. Most people don't make voting decisions based on detailed reading of international treaties. They hear a handful of arguments from each side, and then make a judgment call on who it sounds like are making more sense.
When they read Person A call Person B a traitor who deserve opprobrium being heaped on them, it makes them think less of Person A not Person B unless they already agree with the assessment. No one instance will change their mind, but the cumulative picture might. It's especially damaging as the angry, aggressive people are the ones that stick in people's minds, and it overwhelms the memory of people like Casino_Royale making calm points.
The question for those like you is whether you'd rather aggressively defend your overall Eurosceptic philosophy as morally superior to those that disagree, or actually persuade the majority of the public to back your position at the referendum. Because if it's the second, your current approach is the wrong one.
I have no interest in persuading people like TSE. Long ago we tried reasoned argument with him but he was more interested in petty party politics than real discussion of policy. If he has not changed his view by now in spite of what he has seen and heard about the EU then he is never going to. People like him who put party before country deserve all the opprobrium that can be heaped upon them.
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
I don't think that's fair. Changing long-held views is a difficult and emotional process, it requires patience.
TSE has been very honest in mapping out what might swing his vote, and the terms on which he'd do it. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is seek to persuade them.
Insulting them really doesn't help matters.
I'm a swing voter on this. It's a novel experience which, I hope, has given me greater insight into how the often much-derided swing voters ("a few people in a few seats who can't make up their mind") in marginals feel.
You want to look at the case as rationally as possible, but the way in which you are spoken to does make a big difference: the ideologues on both sides are equally capable of impressing me or leaving me cold.
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
He should have been in the big league when he stood for the leadership. Bizarrely no-one really brought all this up until most of the electorate had voted. It's obvious why the right-wing media were sitting on their hands, but where were the attacks in the Guardian, Indy and Mirror, and the condemnation from Burnham, Cooper and Kendall?
So it seems the big league is only when you play with the Tories (and the SNP). About right, looking at the political landscape today.
The mindset of many, and particularly many on the left, is that if you suppress discussion of something then it's as good as not happening. They therefore denied Corbyn the oxygen of publicity in the hope that by doing so he'd go away. To have responded would have legitimised his position as a credible candidate, which ignored the fact that votes also legitimised that position.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I'm sorry Casino Royale, but I do think this is verging on the vacuous.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
I think we're agreeing with each other - the problem is very clear (Remain) but the case for change (Leave) hasn't been made.
If it were, I think Leave could win by up to 65/35.
Part of the issue is that different people will have very different views of what they think a post-leave 'UK' should look like.
I am leaning towards Leave, but my view of what the UK should look like in a post-leave world and Farage's view are almost total opposites of each other.
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
He should have been in the big league when he stood for the leadership. Bizarrely no-one really brought all this up until most of the electorate had voted. It's obvious why the right-wing media were sitting on their hands, but where were the attacks in the Guardian, Indy and Mirror, and the condemnation from Burnham, Cooper and Kendall?
So it seems the big league is only when you play with the Tories (and the SNP). About right, looking at the political landscape today.
The mindset of many, and particularly many on the left, is that if you suppress discussion of something then it's as good as not happening. They therefore denied Corbyn the oxygen of publicity in the hope that by doing so he'd go away. To have responded would have legitimised his position as a credible candidate, which ignored the fact that votes also legitimised that position.
Absolutely. And they were probably all a little embarrassed that their party had tolerated him as a representative for so long. And now he's their representative.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I'm sorry Casino Royale, but I do think this is verging on the vacuous.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
I think we're agreeing with each other - the problem is very clear (Remain) but the case for change (Leave) hasn't been made.
If it were, I think Leave could win by up to 65/35.
I'm hoping Lord Lawson could get his group to present a plan for what a good deal looks like, and shows how it is plausible when compared to other trade deals out there.
It would also be good to get an assessment of what other trade deals we could get that we're currently missing out on.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
The ongoing decline to 17% in the last poll from a quadrupling of their vote share in May?
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
I have no interest in persuading people like TSE. Long ago we tried reasoned argument with him but he was more interested in petty party politics than real discussion of policy. If he has not changed his view by now in spite of what he has seen and heard about the EU then he is never going to. People like him who put party before country deserve all the opprobrium that can be heaped upon them.
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
I don't think that's fair. Changing long-held views is a difficult and emotional process, it requires patience.
TSE has been very honest in mapping out what might swing his vote, and the terms on which he'd do it. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is seek to persuade them.
Insulting them really doesn't help matters.
I'm a swing voter on this. It's a novel experience which, I hope, has given me greater insight into how the often much-derided swing voters ("a few people in a few seats who can't make up their mind") in marginals feel.
You want to look at the case as rationally as possible, but the way in which you are spoken to does make a big difference: the ideologues on both sides are equally capable of impressing me or leaving me cold.
Well said. Those in the middle third of the spectrum of views on EU membership are really not persuaded by the arguments made by either Farage or Clegg. Those advocating one way or the other need to make their case to the undecideds, not their own loyal fans.
For me, M. Hollande is the best advocate for the Leave campaign today. The attitude that we should either join the USoE or f. off (to paraphrase only slightly) will lead to the latter option being taken.
As someone who was intending to vote Stay and has moved to a firm Leave, I've found it a quite visceral experience. I wanted to be convinced that we could negotiate something better - then my faith just seeped away bit by bit with each new stupidity.
The final nail was Frau Merkel. It was just all too much to excuse, the implications for us grave and the damage to the rest of the EU impossible to reverse. Having moved across - I'd be very surprised if I could be convinced to return. I'm not even that bothered by what Leave looks like - I've no faith in Stay.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I'm sorry Casino Royale, but I do think this is verging on the vacuous.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
I think we're agreeing with each other - the problem is very clear (Remain) but the case for change (Leave) hasn't been made.
If it were, I think Leave could win by up to 65/35.
Part of the issue is that different people will have very different views of what they think a post-leave 'UK' should look like.
I am leaning towards Leave, but my view of what the UK should look like in a post-leave world and Farage's view are almost total opposites of each other.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
The ongoing decline to 17% in the last poll from a quadrupling of their vote share in May?
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
I don't think that we have heard the last from UKIP, by a long chalk. There is a quiet revolution underway in many UKIP branches, and from these who knows what will flower?
May I ask a serious question to those on here, and there seems to be plenty, why do you dislike Farage so much? I find it peculiar to read that some would vote IN because of him.
I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just curious to hear your thinking. I know him but not well enough to consider us friends, he's a very bight man in conversation.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I'm sorry Casino Royale, but I do think this is verging on the vacuous.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
I think we're agreeing with each other - the problem is very clear (Remain) but the case for change (Leave) hasn't been made.
If it were, I think Leave could win by up to 65/35.
Part of the issue is that different people will have very different views of what they think a post-leave 'UK' should look like.
I am leaning towards Leave, but my view of what the UK should look like in a post-leave world and Farage's view are almost total opposites of each other.
But does it matter that you and Farage have different views of what the post brexit UK look like? If we leave, farage will still not be an MP, be leader of a party with one seat and won't even be an MEP. It doesn't mean he will have any say over anything (much like now)
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
The ongoing decline to 17% in the last poll from a quadrupling of their vote share in May?
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
I don't think that we have heard the last from UKIP, by a long chalk. There is a quiet revolution underway in many UKIP branches, and from these who knows what will flower?
I have no interest in persuading people like TSE. Long ago we tried reasoned argument with him but he was more interested in petty party politics than real discussion of policy. If he has not changed his view by now in spite of what he has seen and heard about the EU then he is never going to. People like him who put party before country deserve all the opprobrium that can be heaped upon them.
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
I don't think that's fair. Changing long-held views is a difficult and emotional process, it requires patience.
TSE has been very honest in mapping out what might swing his vote, and the terms on which he'd do it. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is seek to persuade them.
Insulting them really doesn't help matters.
I'm a swing voter on this. It's a novel experience which, I hope, has given me greater insight into how the often much-derided swing voters ("a few people in a few seats who can't make up their mind") in marginals feel.
You want to look at the case as rationally as possible, but the way in which you are spoken to does make a big difference: the ideologues on both sides are equally capable of impressing me or leaving me cold.
I've been left cold by the ideologues on both sides. I've yet to be impressed on either side.
As an undecided, I don't want to be bombarded with economic statistics and graphs, most of which will be entirely spurious on both sides. If you have an absolutely killer fact, by all means share it with me, but check that it really is a killer fact that will change my decision rather than reconfirm your own.
I'm most interested in finding out which side is presenting a future that is most respectful of all the things I like best about Britain. At the moment, Remain is being disingenuous about the changes that are likely to come if we stay in the EU and Leave is ranting to me about immigrants. Remain need to identify some clear lines in the sand and Leave need to show that they aren't seeking to lead a reactionary coup of the nation.
Put another way, if I am forced to choose between Jean-Claude Juncker and Nigel Farage, it's a really really unattractive choice.
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
He should have been in the big league when he stood for the leadership. Bizarrely no-one really brought all this up until most of the electorate had voted. It's obvious why the right-wing media were sitting on their hands, but where were the attacks in the Guardian, Indy and Mirror, and the condemnation from Burnham, Cooper and Kendall?
So it seems the big league is only when you play with the Tories (and the SNP). About right, looking at the political landscape today.
The mindset of many, and particularly many on the left, is that if you suppress discussion of something then it's as good as not happening. They therefore denied Corbyn the oxygen of publicity in the hope that by doing so he'd go away. To have responded would have legitimised his position as a credible candidate, which ignored the fact that votes also legitimised that position.
Burnham et al were complacent and hubristic. And when they realised the trouble they were in they were unwilling to say what needed to be said about Corbyn, as DC did so brutally yesterday. Cowardice and complacency are not a good combination.
They deserved to lose. A pity all of them couldn't have lost.
TBH, I feel Lawson is too old/grandee to lead this as a frontman. I tend to wince when I see him on the telly. I'd much prefer someone else, but not Farage/Hannan in the spotlight
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
I'm sorry Casino Royale, but I do think this is verging on the vacuous.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
I think we're agreeing with each other - the problem is very clear (Remain) but the case for change (Leave) hasn't been made.
If it were, I think Leave could win by up to 65/35.
I'm hoping Lord Lawson could get his group to present a plan for what a good deal looks like, and shows how it is plausible when compared to other trade deals out there.
It would also be good to get an assessment of what other trade deals we could get that we're currently missing out on.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
The ongoing decline to 17% in the last poll from a quadrupling of their vote share in May?
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
Not sure you can claim polling projection as 'FACT'. Now recent local and general election results......
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
He should have been in the big league when he stood for the leadership. Bizarrely no-one really brought all this up until most of the electorate had voted. It's obvious why the right-wing media were sitting on their hands, but where were the attacks in the Guardian, Indy and Mirror, and the condemnation from Burnham, Cooper and Kendall?
So it seems the big league is only when you play with the Tories (and the SNP). About right, looking at the political landscape today.
The mindset of many, and particularly many on the left, is that if you suppress discussion of something then it's as good as not happening. They therefore denied Corbyn the oxygen of publicity in the hope that by doing so he'd go away. To have responded would have legitimised his position as a credible candidate, which ignored the fact that votes also legitimised that position.
They deserved to lose. A pity all of them couldn't have lost.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
The ongoing decline to 17% in the last poll from a quadrupling of their vote share in May?
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
I don't think that we have heard the last from UKIP, by a long chalk. There is a quiet revolution underway in many UKIP branches, and from these who knows what will flower?
102 MPs?
How we laughed.
And now you have Corbyn. I bet you ain't laughing now.
May I ask a serious question to those on here, and there seems to be plenty, why do you dislike Farage so much? I find it peculiar to read that some would vote IN because of him.
I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just curious to hear your thinking. I know him but not well enough to consider us friends, he's a very bight man in conversation.
Rightly or wrongly Farage and UKIP have become inter alia the face of the opposition to things like Gay marriage, hatred of Islam/immigrants (we have a Kipper on here who openly admits he despises Islam) as well as being the face of Brexit.
So some people think voting for Brexit is a vote for all of that as well when they don't agree with the rest of Farage/UKIP's policies.
I wonder what Labour moderates are going to do now? The Tories were left marooned when Tony did it to them.
A single speech cannot change the political landscape. But this wasn’t just a speech. David Cameron has just erected an impenetrable forcefield around the centre ground of British politics. It’s now impossible for anyone on the progressive Left to construct an intellectually coherent argument for voting Labour. That situation will not last indefinitely, and it will be interesting to see how New Conservatism reacts when it has to fight for territory, rather than have it simply ceded to it by its opponents.
I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
The ongoing decline to 17% in the last poll from a quadrupling of their vote share in May?
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
Not sure you can claim polling projection as 'FACT'. Now recent local and general election results......
I thought the general election result was a fair reference point?
I obviously didn't use the poll that had UKIP on 17% as that would extrapolate to the Tories being on 51%... Tut tut
May I ask a serious question to those on here, and there seems to be plenty, why do you dislike Farage so much? I find it peculiar to read that some would vote IN because of him.
I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just curious to hear your thinking. I know him but not well enough to consider us friends, he's a very bight man in conversation.
He comes across as a braying arsehole who is happy to say anything, no matter how controversial and offensive, so long as it keeps him in the headlines. His views are not representative of Britain and I am very concerned that a vote for Leave would be a vote to legitimise a Faragian Britain.
The vote for Remain or Leave isn't just about the EU, it's about what comes next. I really don't want Nigel Farage or anyone like him to be what comes next.
Comments
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
None would want the negative publicity.
Constituency
Support for both Scotland’s main parties eased by two percentage points over the past month. The SNP now stands at 56% with Labour on 21%, the Conservatives are unchanged on 12% and the Liberal Democrats up one point at 6%
List
Among those who expressed a preference, 52% intended to vote SNP (up one percentage point) with Labour on 23% (-1), the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats unchanged on 11% and 6% respectively and the Greens on 5% (-1).
http://bit.ly/1LnuD6J
Rest of the British public hear: insulting, overbearing, condescending, patronising.
Once he has mastered that, then let him move on to the more exotic forms of morning and evening wear.
Any tailors on Saville Row up for a big challenge..?
Vivienne Westwood is presumably a fan of his, given her past publicly stated views. She should volunteer her services.
She is quite brilliant at her job.
Cameron: The sensible time for him to go is 2017 after the referendum in either a blaze of glory or resigned sadness but leaving his successor clear of any blame. His successor will not be George Osbourne.
Vivienne Westwood is presumably a fan of his, given her past publicly stated views. She should volunteer her services.
She is quite brilliant at her job.
Call in Katharine Hamnett - a suit made of white feathers, with a big 'Jezzer Says No' logo on the back.
Vivienne Westwood is presumably a fan of his, given her past publicly stated views. She should volunteer her services.
She is quite brilliant at her job.
Ha, I wonder if there is, lying around somwhere in the PB archive, a photograph of one of our esteemed number attending a big personal occasion while dressed in such a designer's suit.....?
It happens to us all ....
The EU is nowhere near offering us the "single market only" deal with UK non-eurozone protection, as most Brits want.
The only things preventing Leave from getting traction now are disbelief, denial, change inertia, the toxification of Leave by the likes of Farage and the failure to map out a safe, credible post-EU economic alternative and, crucially, the roadmap for getting there.
Where have I heard that before?
During the meeting Merkel also said EU leaders should be open to considering important treaty changes if they want the Union to “evolve.” According to MEPs and officials, Merkel also said during the meeting that the EU treaties should be changed “if necessary” to deal with important issues.
http://www.politico.eu/article/merkel-eu-needs-to-consider-treaty-change/
This will be an imperative for the EU negotiation. Given the way the EU rolled back on their agreement with the UK on the EFSF, we can't trust anything that's not binding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLeFfiYgcro&feature=youtu.be
Out of my Tory friends who I met up with at conference, it is no shock to say I'm the most Pro EU out of the lot of us, and most of them were outers. But they've cooled a bit, mostly on the economic uncertainty grounds that Brexit would mean whilst I've moved the other way (as discussed some of it was down to them not wanting Farage to be on the winning side)
To win this, it's going to be out the economy stupid.
Just watching a re-run of the first half of Germany v Brazil. Germans are 5 nil up. I think they're looking a bit rattled.
Times change.
Everyone knew that Margaret Thatcher was sharp, even if they didn't like her.
What you say is that "leave" haven't said where they want to go or how to get there.
But that is basically anyone needs to do, of whatever political persuasion.
To say that Leave would be winning, if only they could do those two things, could equally be said of any political position.
An intelligent left wing leader could construct a coherent challenge to this government. Labour doesn't have that leader.
I haven't looked at them in a couple of years - they've got collective monomania I see that the ongoing decline of UKIP has not yet penetrated the DT readership. Comments are basically that Cameron is traitor/lightweight/liar/socialist
Quisling? QUISLING? I'm just glad you didn't say Tory Europhiles were like Vichy France. That would have been unacceptable.
And the poll was bollocks. Even you know that deep in your heart.
What's his next trick, admitting to cheering for Australia during the Ashes?
The former Labour communications chief said Mr Corbyn was now in 'the big league' and that he will 'discover everything he’s done and everything he said is going to be brought up'
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13810944.Scottish_Government_will_not_take_final_decision_on_fracking_in_Scotland_until_2017/
Not a cat in hells chance of it actually happening though.
Saying these things makes these people think "Leavers think I used to be a traitor, or that great politician I like is a traitor". I'm sure there's some fine distinction you probably have for why you don't think that, but that's not what people hear when they see your odd comment in passing.
You are completely undoing the persuasive efforts of people like Casino_Royale and Sean_F.
So it seems the big league is only when you play with the Tories (and the SNP). About right, looking at the political landscape today.
Of course who can see what is always a matter of need to know. The fact that someone has been vetted to a degree does not mean that they can never be allowed to be told of information above their normal classification, only that they may not be allowed to routinely handle such information. So someone who has no "security clearance" may still be told of stuff that is formally classified as Restricted, Secret or even higher - if it is judged that they do need to know. The corollary is also true a person with very high clearance should never be informed of even low grade classified information if they do not need to know it in order to discharge their duties.
We'll catch more flies with honey than with acid.
Just saying
Thinking that my attacks on the Quislings will make any difference to the final vote is as vacuous as claiming one is going to vote for remain because they don't like Farage. In both cases it reveals the void at the heart of the Pro EU argument.
Force of habit Not sure what criteria they used to define the LibDems as one of the three main parties.
If it were, I think Leave could win by up to 65/35.
The side that best persuades me that it is on our economic interests to remain or leave will get my vote.
Casino Royale has done a great job in helping me to change my mind from a firm remain to probable leave
TSE has been very honest in mapping out what might swing his vote, and the terms on which he'd do it. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is seek to persuade them.
Insulting them really doesn't help matters.
Congratulations on winning today's Godwin though. Ironic really that you managed to combine that with a comment that eschewed emperical data in favour of a believing something to be true simply because you want it to be.
When they read Person A call Person B a traitor who deserve opprobrium being heaped on them, it makes them think less of Person A not Person B unless they already agree with the assessment. No one instance will change their mind, but the cumulative picture might. It's especially damaging as the angry, aggressive people are the ones that stick in people's minds, and it overwhelms the memory of people like Casino_Royale making calm points.
The question for those like you is whether you'd rather aggressively defend your overall Eurosceptic philosophy as morally superior to those that disagree, or actually persuade the majority of the public to back your position at the referendum. Because if it's the second, your current approach is the wrong one.
You want to look at the case as rationally as possible, but the way in which you are spoken to does make a big difference: the ideologues on both sides are equally capable of impressing me or leaving me cold.
I am leaning towards Leave, but my view of what the UK should look like in a post-leave world and Farage's view are almost total opposites of each other.
It would also be good to get an assessment of what other trade deals we could get that we're currently missing out on.
The ongoing decline to 17% in the last poll from a quadrupling of their vote share in May?
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
Fifa has provisionally suspended its president Sepp Blatter, secretary general Jerome Valcke and vice-president Michel Platini for 90 days.
And about time. All this pussyfooting around with blatant criminality has got to cease; and not only in football.
For me, M. Hollande is the best advocate for the Leave campaign today. The attitude that we should either join the USoE or f. off (to paraphrase only slightly) will lead to the latter option being taken.
The final nail was Frau Merkel. It was just all too much to excuse, the implications for us grave and the damage to the rest of the EU impossible to reverse. Having moved across - I'd be very surprised if I could be convinced to return. I'm not even that bothered by what Leave looks like - I've no faith in Stay.
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
I don't think that we have heard the last from UKIP, by a long chalk. There is a quiet revolution underway in many UKIP branches, and from these who knows what will flower?
I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just curious to hear your thinking. I know him but not well enough to consider us friends, he's a very bight man in conversation.
The debate for Out could be won. But I don't think it will be. Too much bickering between factions.
102 MPs?
How we laughed.
As an undecided, I don't want to be bombarded with economic statistics and graphs, most of which will be entirely spurious on both sides. If you have an absolutely killer fact, by all means share it with me, but check that it really is a killer fact that will change my decision rather than reconfirm your own.
I'm most interested in finding out which side is presenting a future that is most respectful of all the things I like best about Britain. At the moment, Remain is being disingenuous about the changes that are likely to come if we stay in the EU and Leave is ranting to me about immigrants. Remain need to identify some clear lines in the sand and Leave need to show that they aren't seeking to lead a reactionary coup of the nation.
Put another way, if I am forced to choose between Jean-Claude Juncker and Nigel Farage, it's a really really unattractive choice.
They deserved to lose. A pity all of them couldn't have lost.
For every three Tories you meet you will meet a kipper, FACT
Not sure you can claim polling projection as 'FACT'. Now recent local and general election results......
How we laughed.
And now you have Corbyn. I bet you ain't laughing now.
So some people think voting for Brexit is a vote for all of that as well when they don't agree with the rest of Farage/UKIP's policies.
I thought the general election result was a fair reference point?
I obviously didn't use the poll that had UKIP on 17% as that would extrapolate to the Tories being on 51%... Tut tut
The vote for Remain or Leave isn't just about the EU, it's about what comes next. I really don't want Nigel Farage or anyone like him to be what comes next.