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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Guardian’s right – the Adonis move is a major coup for

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  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Mr. Gin, it does seem a bit tedious. Will the 5p actually make any difference, except for making the supermarkets a bit more money?

    Yes, it does. It makes huge difference. It seems bizarre but it really does work.

    I don't care about 5p but for some reason I avoid it and have done since it was introduced back in 2014. I think the reduction in bag usage is about 85%.

    The only annoyance is with some companies - the main one being McDonalds who charge the 5p despite not having to (it qualifies in the "hygiene" expemption as it is selling loose items) whereas KFC doesn't. I also don't see why the government doesn't collect the money but meh, it's buttons anyway.

    Overall it is a really good law and works well.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    GIN1138 said:

    So the Daily Mail has played an instrumental part in lumbering us with the "bag tax" yet this morning we have them whining on their front page about "Plastic Bags Chaos"

    Dreadful, dreadful paper....

    I think the shoppers of England will somehow adapt, as those before them in the Channel Islands, and more recently the other countries of the UK have done......

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/apr/17/scotland-plastic-bag-usage-falls-after-5p-charge-introduced
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    Will the 5p actually make any difference?

    Yes. Usage will collapse ~70-80%, if the experience of other parts of the British Isles is replicated.....
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,104
    Dair said:

    Arguably the most influential Sci-Fi writer on today's culture is Timothy Zahn.

    Jeff vandermeer, Ernest Cline, john scalzi, Emily St. John Mandel, Liu Cixin, Ann Leckie, and Brandon Sanderson seem to be the big names these days. So it's postmodernism, gaming and retro-gaming, China, gender identity, and ripoffs of Harry Potter. Welcome to the 2010s...:-(
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,497
    edited 2015 05

    GIN1138 said:

    So the Daily Mail has played an instrumental part in lumbering us with the "bag tax" yet this morning we have them whining on their front page about "Plastic Bags Chaos"

    Dreadful, dreadful paper....

    I think the shoppers of England will somehow adapt, as those before them in the Channel Islands, and more recently the other countries of the UK have done......

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/apr/17/scotland-plastic-bag-usage-falls-after-5p-charge-introduced
    To be honest I couldn't care less what other countries in the UK have done...

    Come the referendum I'll be voting for OUT primarily to try and get Scotland to sling their hook! :smiley:
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    GIN1138 said:

    So the Daily Mail has played an instrumental part in lumbering us with the "bag tax" yet this morning we have them whining on their front page about "Plastic Bags Chaos"

    Dreadful, dreadful paper....

    I think the shoppers of England will somehow adapt, as those before them in the Channel Islands, and more recently the other countries of the UK have done......

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/apr/17/scotland-plastic-bag-usage-falls-after-5p-charge-introduced
    It's interesting to note the differences in frugality between the nations. Norn Irn has people who seem not to care that much while the Welsh really don't want to spend those pennies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Viewcode, fantasy rather than sci-fi, but I'm rather enjoying Words of Radiance (by Brandon Sanderson).
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.

    Potato Starch bags have been used for years. The problem is that although they are biodegradable it is still a number of years for that to happen if the bag is to be strong enough to actually work as, you know, a bag.

    The Co-Op led the way IIRC, the best part of 10 years ago.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.

    MrMorris
    They do have them. Some if not many degrade in sunlight and become fragmented after a while before becoming almost powdery. I think a number of us have found a stored bag to be in pieces. It's time consuming though and the residues are still there though not sure what dangers that poses?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,047
    Dair said:

    Mr. Gin, it does seem a bit tedious. Will the 5p actually make any difference, except for making the supermarkets a bit more money?

    Yes, it does. It makes huge difference. It seems bizarre but it really does work.

    I don't care about 5p but for some reason I avoid it and have done since it was introduced back in 2014. I think the reduction in bag usage is about 85%.

    The only annoyance is with some companies - the main one being McDonalds who charge the 5p despite not having to (it qualifies in the "hygiene" expemption as it is selling loose items) whereas KFC doesn't. I also don't see why the government doesn't collect the money but meh, it's buttons anyway.

    Overall it is a really good law and works well.
    It is curious, but somethings we do just object to paying for, however little. I also won't pay for such bags, even though no doubt I've dropped that much in change on the ground and not bothered to pick it up.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598
    I know Adonis a bit - as Mike implies, he's essentially in politics to do stuff rather than to campaign for a party. There's nothing wrong with that, any more than there was with the GOAT idea, and I'd probably have done the same in his position. But it's not a party political move.

    Sensible piece in the Telegraph on the tax credit issue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11910635/George-Osbornes-tax-credit-problem-is-dishonesty-not-cruelty.html
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.

    Brown paper? Like in the USA.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    I know Adonis a bit - as Mike implies, he's essentially in politics to do stuff rather than to campaign for a party. There's nothing wrong with that, any more than there was with the GOAT idea, and I'd probably have done the same in his position. But it's not a party political move.

    Sensible piece in the Telegraph on the tax credit issue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11910635/George-Osbornes-tax-credit-problem-is-dishonesty-not-cruelty.html

    Come off it Nick, from social democrat to lib dem to labour to tory, he's interested in himself, nothing more.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,047

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    This stinks of an affront to democracy? How? I get people regarding the hol in that way in general, but if it exists best to make use of them, and so while this specific appointment isn't enhancing democracy, it's no more an affront to it than before.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I'm not sure what the point of this new quango is. Or to be more blunt, I don't think there is a point. If the Government haven't already had a serious think about infrastructure at this point, what on earth are we doing?

    The point is that infrastructure has become a political football.

    Like with the OBR this is an attempt to create institutions that constrain the desire of politicians to play games.

    It may not work, but if it enables major infrastructure projects to be commissioned on their merits and built regards of a change of government that is a remarkable step forward
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Dair said:

    Mr. Gin, it does seem a bit tedious. Will the 5p actually make any difference, except for making the supermarkets a bit more money?

    Yes, it does. It makes huge difference. It seems bizarre but it really does work.

    I don't care about 5p but for some reason I avoid it and have done since it was introduced back in 2014. I think the reduction in bag usage is about 85%.

    The only annoyance is with some companies - the main one being McDonalds who charge the 5p despite not having to (it qualifies in the "hygiene" expemption as it is selling loose items) whereas KFC doesn't. I also don't see why the government doesn't collect the money but meh, it's buttons anyway.

    Overall it is a really good law and works well.
    It works well but perhaps the benefits are not as clear-cut as its proponents make out -- this is more like diesel than tobacco.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,104

    Mr. Viewcode, fantasy rather than sci-fi, but I'm rather enjoying Words of Radiance (by Brandon Sanderson).

    I agree that he's fantasy not sci-fi, but the #booktubesff crowd smoosh the two together. He kind of slides off me - it's not that I dislike him, it's more that I don't want to make the effort. Put me on a train with only his book to read and no doubt i'd reappraise, but until then, no. John Scalzi seems to be good
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited 2015 05
    Re charging for plastic bags.

    My daughter had a weekend job at WHSmiths and they have been charging for bags under a specific code for at least 2 years to help the environment. The monies collected are assigned to charities. The main problem was the anger of people that had to put down 1p to buy them. She has had vile abuse, threats and her colleague had a full basket of items that were picked up and thrown at her across the counter. These are Saturday girls and lads just earning to get through Uni.

    Not all are quite so understanding or balanced in their views as I would not have been had I stood there and ever witnessed such attacks on my daughter and her colleagues simply for doing the Saturday job.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,497
    edited 2015 05
    So the exodus has started from the sinking Corbyn ship!

    Will there be anybody left by 2020? :smiley:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    Adonis is a party hopper

    But is still a member of the Labour Party?

    He's just moved to the Cross Benches in the Lords.....
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    I know Adonis a bit - as Mike implies, he's essentially in politics to do stuff rather than to campaign for a party. There's nothing wrong with that, any more than there was with the GOAT idea, and I'd probably have done the same in his position. But it's not a party political move.

    Sensible piece in the Telegraph on the tax credit issue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11910635/George-Osbornes-tax-credit-problem-is-dishonesty-not-cruelty.html

    Adonis has been a member of 3 political parties and been local councillor for one of them and campaigned on behalf of another until only recently.
    Adonis is not joining the govt so the GOAT thing is not relavent.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited 2015 05
    Charles said:

    I'm not sure what the point of this new quango is. Or to be more blunt, I don't think there is a point. If the Government haven't already had a serious think about infrastructure at this point, what on earth are we doing?

    The point is that infrastructure has become a political football.

    Like with the OBR this is an attempt to create institutions that constrain the desire of politicians to play games.

    It may not work, but if it enables major infrastructure projects to be commissioned on their merits and built regards of a change of government that is a remarkable step forward
    Perhaps we could do everything else like that and do. away wit the need for govt altogether
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Mr. Gin, it does seem a bit tedious. Will the 5p actually make any difference, except for making the supermarkets a bit more money?

    Yes, it does. It makes huge difference. It seems bizarre but it really does work.

    I don't care about 5p but for some reason I avoid it and have done since it was introduced back in 2014. I think the reduction in bag usage is about 85%.

    The only annoyance is with some companies - the main one being McDonalds who charge the 5p despite not having to (it qualifies in the "hygiene" expemption as it is selling loose items) whereas KFC doesn't. I also don't see why the government doesn't collect the money but meh, it's buttons anyway.

    Overall it is a really good law and works well.
    It is curious, but somethings we do just object to paying for, however little. I also won't pay for such bags, even though no doubt I've dropped that much in change on the ground and not bothered to pick it up.
    I'm going to start walking behind you.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Viewcode, other fantasy authors are available *nudge nudge*.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    kle4 said:

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    This stinks of an affront to democracy? How? I get people regarding the hol in that way in general, but if it exists best to make use of them, and so while this specific appointment isn't enhancing democracy, it's no more an affront to it than before.
    He's not just a cross bencher though is he, he could have headed the group as Labour without resigning the whip if this was all about democracy. Its a farce, more unelected people running govt, its an affront to democracy.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    I know Adonis a bit - as Mike implies, he's essentially in politics to do stuff rather than to campaign for a party. There's nothing wrong with that, any more than there was with the GOAT idea, and I'd probably have done the same in his position. But it's not a party political move.

    Sensible piece in the Telegraph on the tax credit issue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11910635/George-Osbornes-tax-credit-problem-is-dishonesty-not-cruelty.html

    from social democrat to lib dem to labour to tory
    Which part of 'Adonis is still a member of the Labour Party' is unclear?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,104

    Mr. Viewcode, other fantasy authors are available *nudge nudge*.

    Any suggestions? (innocent face)
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Moses_ said:

    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.

    MrMorris
    They do have them. Some if not many degrade in sunlight and become fragmented after a while before becoming almost powdery. I think a number of us have found a stored bag to be in pieces. It's time consuming though and the residues are still there though not sure what dangers that poses?

    Isn't that the point about degradable bags, that they umm degrade? You are in fact meant to throw them away. I repeat... What's wrong with brown paper?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    I know Adonis a bit - as Mike implies, he's essentially in politics to do stuff rather than to campaign for a party. There's nothing wrong with that, any more than there was with the GOAT idea, and I'd probably have done the same in his position. But it's not a party political move.

    Sensible piece in the Telegraph on the tax credit issue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11910635/George-Osbornes-tax-credit-problem-is-dishonesty-not-cruelty.html

    from social democrat to lib dem to labour to tory
    Which part of 'Adonis is still a member of the Labour Party' is unclear?
    The part where he's resigned the whip

  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    I know Adonis a bit - as Mike implies, he's essentially in politics to do stuff rather than to campaign for a party. There's nothing wrong with that, any more than there was with the GOAT idea, and I'd probably have done the same in his position. But it's not a party political move.

    Sensible piece in the Telegraph on the tax credit issue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11910635/George-Osbornes-tax-credit-problem-is-dishonesty-not-cruelty.html

    from social democrat to lib dem to labour to tory
    Which part of 'Adonis is still a member of the Labour Party' is unclear?
    Adonis has not joined the Tory party. From a Tory perspective of course he does not need to.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,773

    I'd forgotten how much I HATE the Today prog - that hectoring, sneering manner that involves interrupting and assuming all political guests are something on the bottom of their shoes.

    I've turned off the Osborne intv.

    Helping hardworking families by cutting their tax credits and making them poorer deserves sneering at TBF
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Viewcode, I hear Thaddeus White is an underrated but splendiferous author whose books are extremely reasonably priced.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876
    viewcode said:

    Dair said:

    Arguably the most influential Sci-Fi writer on today's culture is Timothy Zahn.

    Jeff vandermeer, Ernest Cline, john scalzi, Emily St. John Mandel, Liu Cixin, Ann Leckie, and Brandon Sanderson seem to be the big names these days. So it's postmodernism, gaming and retro-gaming, China, gender identity, and ripoffs of Harry Potter. Welcome to the 2010s...:-(
    Brandon Sanderson is one of the most successful writers today of straightforward good vs evil fantasy. But the genre as a whole has moved in the direction of moral ambiguity. Main characters are anti heroes, or villain protagonists. They do morally dubious things and good and evil are confused.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Moses_ said:

    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.

    MrMorris
    They do have them. Some if not many degrade in sunlight and become fragmented after a while before becoming almost powdery. I think a number of us have found a stored bag to be in pieces. It's time consuming though and the residues are still there though not sure what dangers that poses?

    Isn't that the point about degradable bags, that they umm degrade? You are in fact meant to throw them away. I repeat... What's wrong with brown paper?
    Paper bags are worse than plastic ones, if this is right:
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2011/dec/20/paper-plastic-bags-which-best
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. F, that's true, but I'm glad the predominance of grimdark or morally grey stories hasn't become total (in the same way YA dystopia is the largest part of sci-fi but not the whole genre).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    I know Adonis a bit - as Mike implies, he's essentially in politics to do stuff rather than to campaign for a party. There's nothing wrong with that, any more than there was with the GOAT idea, and I'd probably have done the same in his position. But it's not a party political move.

    Sensible piece in the Telegraph on the tax credit issue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11910635/George-Osbornes-tax-credit-problem-is-dishonesty-not-cruelty.html

    from social democrat to lib dem to labour to tory
    Which part of 'Adonis is still a member of the Labour Party' is unclear?
    The part where he's resigned the whip

    Taking the Labour Whip would help get cross-party consensus?

    The Commission thinks this, but Jeremy says I have to say something else......
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,351

    PB Meet in Manchester from 4 onwards today

    near Piccadilly Train Station

    If you need any further information email me at

    PBMeet@yahoo.co.uk

    Is @Yokel providing security?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    kle4 said:

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    This stinks of an affront to democracy? How? I get people regarding the hol in that way in general, but if it exists best to make use of them, and so while this specific appointment isn't enhancing democracy, it's no more an affront to it than before.
    He's not just a cross bencher though is he, he could have headed the group as Labour without resigning the whip if this was all about democracy. Its a farce, more unelected people running govt, its an affront to democracy.

    Adonis is not in government. He is headingn a commission. The whole point of this commission is that it deals with long term issues for which we really need a broad cross party consensus. Currently the party formerly known as Labour are not interested in stuff like that. It wants to forment strife.

    A new name for the party formerly known as Labour might be useful.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    DavidL said:

    PB Meet in Manchester from 4 onwards today

    near Piccadilly Train Station

    If you need any further information email me at

    PBMeet@yahoo.co.uk

    Is @Yokel providing security?
    I will be. I will use my "Austerity gives me the horn" placard to repel the soap dodging lefties.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I'd forgotten how much I HATE the Today prog - that hectoring, sneering manner that involves interrupting and assuming all political guests are something on the bottom of their shoes.

    I've turned off the Osborne intv.

    Helping hardworking families by cutting their tax credits and making them poorer deserves


    It certainly stops them having large families paid for by the taxpayer. I thought it restricted tax credits to the first two children and that seems fair enough to me.??
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,773

    Mr. Viewcode, I hear Thaddeus White is an underrated but splendiferous author whose books are extremely reasonably priced.

    He is very slow at launching follow ups though!!
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    kle4 said:

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    This stinks of an affront to democracy? How? I get people regarding the hol in that way in general, but if it exists best to make use of them, and so while this specific appointment isn't enhancing democracy, it's no more an affront to it than before.
    He's not just a cross bencher though is he, he could have headed the group as Labour without resigning the whip if this was all about democracy. Its a farce, more unelected people running govt, its an affront to democracy.

    Adonis is not in government. He is headingn a commission. The whole point of this commission is that it deals with long term issues for which we really need a broad cross party consensus. Currently the party formerly known as Labour are not interested in stuff like that. It wants to forment strife.

    A new name for the party formerly known as Labour might be useful.
    Of course the tribalists will applaud Osborne for his one-upmanship but from a democratic point of view it stinks, Adonis has resigned the whip and Osborne is feeling smug. Hands up who elected Adonis to head up an important govt commission?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Who are we looking at and is that all you get in first class: what looks like free coffee from the machine?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,104
    @Sean_F, @Morris_Dancer, thank you
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    DavidL said:

    PB Meet in Manchester from 4 onwards today

    near Piccadilly Train Station

    If you need any further information email me at

    PBMeet@yahoo.co.uk

    Is @Yokel providing security?
    I will be. I will use my "Austerity gives me the horn" placard to repel the soap dodging lefties.
    To repel the spittle and the eggs. Don't forget that if you offer any resistance to the protesters or counter reaction, then according to well known trade union sources you will deserve all you get.
    Labour are led by Mr Angry, so at long last these barstards have got the leadership they have been craving for.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    This is a great move by Osborne. Gives him cover to push through stuff like the HR3 and other projects like crossrail 2 and any bleating from the likes of Boris will fall on deaf ears, not my decision guv, go and talk to Andrew.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876

    Mr. F, that's true, but I'm glad the predominance of grimdark or morally grey stories hasn't become total (in the same way YA dystopia is the largest part of sci-fi but not the whole genre).

    Sooner or later, I'm sure grimdark will move out of fashion.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Charles said:

    I'm not sure what the point of this new quango is. Or to be more blunt, I don't think there is a point. If the Government haven't already had a serious think about infrastructure at this point, what on earth are we doing?

    The point is that infrastructure has become a political football.

    Like with the OBR this is an attempt to create institutions that constrain the desire of politicians to play games.

    It may not work, but if it enables major infrastructure projects to be commissioned on their merits and built regards of a change of government that is a remarkable step forward
    Perhaps we could do everything else like that and do. away wit the need for govt altogether
    That would work if we had a nation of sensible Tories.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    edited 2015 05
    Mr. Owls, well... delays do happen. And whilst that is my fault for KA, it isn't for Sir Edric. And the follow-ups are coming.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. F, undoubtedly.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. F, that's true, but I'm glad the predominance of grimdark or morally grey stories hasn't become total (in the same way YA dystopia is the largest part of sci-fi but not the whole genre).

    Sooner or later, I'm sure grimdark will move out of fashion.
    Or its readership will have all committed suicide.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    Pop quiz hot shots.

    Who said this in 2013?

    Clegg seems to have taken to heart Arthur Balfour's dictum that in politics "nothing matters very much and few things matter at all", the prize being simply to occupy office. He has given David Cameron a large majority in return for little more than the power to apply an occasional brake – a power he would have possessed more strongly had the Tories formed a minority government. For the Lib Dems, it has been an exercise in irrelevance. For the country, it has yielded years of austerity economics for which they never voted.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Charles said:

    I'm not sure what the point of this new quango is. Or to be more blunt, I don't think there is a point. If the Government haven't already had a serious think about infrastructure at this point, what on earth are we doing?

    The point is that infrastructure has become a political football.

    Like with the OBR this is an attempt to create institutions that constrain the desire of politicians to play games.

    It may not work, but if it enables major infrastructure projects to be commissioned on their merits and built regards of a change of government that is a remarkable step forward
    Perhaps we could do everything else like that and do. away wit the need for govt altogether
    I missed this earlier but Mr SquareRoot makes the point perfectly. Why have elections, parties, the commons and lords, just let a few blokes appoint who they want, what could possibly go wrong?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Blairite Lord gets job with Blairite Gov't ;)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,351
    edited 2015 05

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @PeteWishart: Geez! looks like the Scottish MSM have yet another day of front pages on Michelle. That's now a week There has never been anything like this

    Yes, Pete, there has never been anything like this...

    The SNP’s former spokeswoman for business is facing further questions in a property scandal.

    It is alleged that Michelle Thomson, who won the Edinburgh West seat at the general election in May, took two years to register as the landlord of a house bought in a cut-price deal from a pensioner by Your Property Shop, a company she ran but which is now defunct. If she had let the property in that two-year period while not on the official landlord register, Thomson could have committed an offence which carries a fine of up to £50,000.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4576302.ece

    @blairmcdougall: SNP politician & @bizforscotland founder used Thomson's company fr property deals. But of course no one knew anything http://t.co/k0UUzmTomM
    Well not since we had fantasy week about a pig's head anyway and that was at least a fortnight ago.

    And this story is based on fact.
    Do you think there might be ramifications from this:

    The Law Society and the Crown Office came under heavy fire after it emerged that it took the Law Society four years to hand over evidence of the suspicious deals, which had led to Thomson’s property solicitor Chris Hales being struck off last year.

    The Crown Office ordered a police criminal investigation within six days of receiving the Hales dossier in July, suggesting it was deeply alarmed by the case.


    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/04/scotland-legal-bodies-to-discuss-mp-michelle-thomson-suspicious-property-deals

    Or nothing more than sloppy paperwork/follow through?



    I think the concern is that the person who seems to have dallied somewhat in making any kind of report in what is pretty obviously mortgage fraud was very active in the Yes campaign. Whether he is simply incompetent or had other motives is something that needs investigation.

    In my experience the investigation units and Crown Office normally work reasonably closely. I am aware of a case in Dundee, for example, where it was the Law Society Investigation Unit who reported the case and asked Crown Office to get a warrant as they were confident that their investigation would lead to Criminal charges (which it did, and a conviction with the solicitor getting 3 or 4 years).

    The timescale of this investigation is odd, although not quite as odd as the ST yesterday saying the Law Society had a "towering" reputation. I laughed out loud at that.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    What exactly is wrong with being a "party hopper"? Especially if your views are centrist, they could be represented by any one of the main parties, and as even a party member will not agree with anything like 100% of the party programme, then the party which best represents your views may fluctuate. And in any case I think he has taken on what is supposed to be an apolitical job.

    And all Government ministers are unelected, with the possible exception of the Prime Minister. They are elected as MPs, as legislators and to represent their constituencies' interests, not as members of the government.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,915
    Morning all. Just watching the PM's interview with Marr from yesterday.
    Surely on Shadsy's buzzword bingo "Security" is value even at 1/10, he's said it about 20 times during this interview alone. 10% return in a couple of days.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.

    MrMorris
    They do have them. Some if not many degrade in sunlight and become fragmented after a while before becoming almost powdery. I think a number of us have found a stored bag to be in pieces. It's time consuming though and the residues are still there though not sure what dangers that poses?

    Isn't that the point about degradable bags, that they umm degrade? You are in fact meant to throw them away. I repeat... What's wrong with brown paper?
    Rain water.

    Having spent enough time working in the states, rain water and a soggy bottom is not your friend when carrying groceries in both arms to your automobile at the gas station.

    ;-)
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    What exactly is wrong with being a "party hopper"? Especially if your views are centrist, they could be represented by any one of the main parties, and as even a party member will not agree with anything like 100% of the party programme, then the party which best represents your views may fluctuate. And in any case I think he has taken on what is supposed to be an apolitical job.

    And all Government ministers are unelected, with the possible exception of the Prime Minister. They are elected as MPs, as legislators and to represent their constituencies' interests, not as members of the government.
    Being a party hopper is fine unless your name is Carswell or Reckless.

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Who are we looking at and is that all you get in first class: what looks like free coffee from the machine?
    Depends on the airline. The first class lounge in Virgin is jaw dropping. The first class lounge in British Airways looks like a Mariott breakfast area.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598



    Of course the tribalists will applaud Osborne for his one-upmanship but from a democratic point of view it stinks, Adonis has resigned the whip and Osborne is feeling smug. Hands up who elected Adonis to head up an important govt commission?

    Not sure I agree. Politics is maybe 70% essentially non-partisan, for all we pretend that decision X is a Labour/Tory act of genius/hideous outrage - something like HS2 is essentially a choice between alternative short/long-term costs and benefits, on which people from either party can reasonably come to different views. What's needed is sober analysis, and I don't begrudge him the chance to do it, nor would I prefer that we had directly-elected heads of commissions to investigate infrastructure - it's a predominantly technical job. There is some political spin in the announcement, of course, but that's not a big deal in the longer run.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Moses_ said:

    George Osborne tweets: Pleased former Labour cabinet minister Andrew Adonis will be National Infrastructure Commission chair.Working together in national interest

    Not as pleased as many in Labour to be rid of the unelected greasy pole dancer.
    Last week he was a good egg Huh? This week not so much? .... Mmmmm and greasy pole dancer? Isn't the common term these days Tory scum?
    His record was one of personal opportunitism long before this. He jumped ship as a Lib Dem parliamentary candidate for 1997 when it was clear that Blair was going to walk the 1997 election, and walked straight into the No 10 policy unit and then into senior ministerial office without ever having to be accountable to any form of electorate. I cannot think of a careerist who more exemplifies the disdain that Blair had for his party and his actions now typify the man. So no, I've never regarded him as a "good egg".

    As for why he should be regarded as a loss, remember that this is the man whose brilliant thinking is going to leave you and I saddled with debt for a £50(+) billion white elephant from which a lot of business elites will do very nicely financially, himself included, but not the likes of you or I who will each be shelling out some £800(+) in taxes as a consequence. If that's the sort of wasteful public spending that Osborne likes, as opposed to the sorts of investment that would change millions of peoples' lives, I think the two are well matched.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    MaxPB said:

    This is a great move by Osborne. Gives him cover to push through stuff like the HR3 and other projects like crossrail 2 and any bleating from the likes of Boris will fall on deaf ears, not my decision guv, go and talk to Andrew.

    Boris would bleat about crossrail2?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Moses, on my way to an exam or two at university, it absolutely tipped it down. Even through my shower-proof fleece I was saturated. My socks were sopping wet.

    Cunningly, my rucksack (being old, even then) had a hole in the bottom. So, although my textbooks and other things got a little bit wet, they weren't ruined.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Pop quiz hot shots.

    Who said this in 2013?

    Clegg seems to have taken to heart Arthur Balfour's dictum that in politics "nothing matters very much and few things matter at all", the prize being simply to occupy office. He has given David Cameron a large majority in return for little more than the power to apply an occasional brake – a power he would have possessed more strongly had the Tories formed a minority government. For the Lib Dems, it has been an exercise in irrelevance. For the country, it has yielded years of austerity economics for which they never voted.

    Good morning all. I believe that was young Adonis himself.

    We'll need to see the details of this infrastructure quango before I can muster enthusiasm. In principle, long term planning seems to be essential, but without proper execution (something this country is notoriously bad at), it might just be another irrelevance.

    I'm sure there will (are?) shrieks of outrage from those for whom politics is just a more high-falutin' form of football fandom and tribalism. Fancy the good Lord working with Tory scum - the horror!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    DavidL said:

    I think the concern is that the person who seems to have dallied somewhat in making any kind of report in what is pretty obviously mortgage fraud was very active in the Yes campaign. Whether he is simply incompetent or had other motives is something that needs investigation.

    @AndrewSNicoll: @trewloy @euanmccolm press conference was called solely in order to exonerate Sheila Kirkwood. They never thought we might ask another q.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    What exactly is wrong with being a "party hopper"? Especially if your views are centrist, they could be represented by any one of the main parties, and as even a party member will not agree with anything like 100% of the party programme, then the party which best represents your views may fluctuate. And in any case I think he has taken on what is supposed to be an apolitical job.

    And all Government ministers are unelected, with the possible exception of the Prime Minister. They are elected as MPs, as legislators and to represent their constituencies' interests, not as members of the government.
    Being a party hopper is fine unless your name is Carswell or Reckless.

    If you say so. Personally I am happy with MPs crossing the floor if either their views change or their party changes so that they no longer feels it represents them, or is no longer the right vehicle for them to get their views across. I have never felt that a political party is something to which you owe much loyalty.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,108
    Morning all :)

    I don't have a strong view on Adonis though a "National Infrastructure Commission" is, as the song has it, "nice work if you can get it."

    As the Conservatives seem determined to build a tent so large almost everyone will be in it, I can't help but feel inevitably said tent will collapse under its own internal contradictions.

    It may become more difficult as the EU Referendum approaches along with the inevitable inter-departmental "turf wars" which are the bane of all Governments. For now, the post-election honeymoon continues unabated.

    I wasn't too impressed with some of the language at the Taxpayers' Alliance fringe meeting last evening though I presume most of it was with tongue firmly in cheek. Inevitably, if you are serious about cutting public spending, why (for reasons other than politics) should the benefits paid out to pensioners be exempt from scrutiny ?

    Selling the idea of cutting pensioners' benefits will be interesting but the counter-argument is if you want to be seen as being serious about cutting public spending and the deficit (let alone the debt) how can so much of that spending be a) ring-fenced and b) allowed to continue to rise ?

    Do enjoy the Manchester gathering - will it be admission by lanyard only or will non-Conservatives be permitted to attend ?
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    The problem with the GOAT analogy is that while Adonis clearly has some real ability, other leading disenchanted Labourites don't.

    Being a vapid Blairite doesn't mean you are talented, just that you jumped on the right bandwagon years ago.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Do enjoy the Manchester gathering - will it be admission by lanyard only or will non-Conservatives be permitted to attend ?

    It is welcome to all.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492



    Of course the tribalists will applaud Osborne for his one-upmanship but from a democratic point of view it stinks, Adonis has resigned the whip and Osborne is feeling smug. Hands up who elected Adonis to head up an important govt commission?

    Not sure I agree. Politics is maybe 70% essentially non-partisan, for all we pretend that decision X is a Labour/Tory act of genius/hideous outrage - something like HS2 is essentially a choice between alternative short/long-term costs and benefits, on which people from either party can reasonably come to different views. What's needed is sober analysis, and I don't begrudge him the chance to do it, nor would I prefer that we had directly-elected heads of commissions to investigate infrastructure - it's a predominantly technical job. There is some political spin in the announcement, of course, but that's not a big deal in the longer run.
    Politics is 70% non partisan?

    I'm going to do something I pledged I would never do on this site and be abusive: that is utter bollox.

    Politics is 99% partisan, as is this site.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,368
    edited 2015 05
    Have a good evening, Mr Eagles. I've been booked in for a curry evening in Liverpool tonight for some time so can't make the short trip to Manc land. Don't antagonise the natives or loons too much.

    Rogers' demise looks very popular here.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Lord Adonis is just doing what all self-respecting patriots should do. MPs remaining part of the Labour Party are showing they are comfortable sharing a platform with Islamist and IRA sympathisers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,238

    I'd forgotten how much I HATE the Today prog - that hectoring, sneering manner that involves interrupting and assuming all political guests are something on the bottom of their shoes.

    I've turned off the Osborne intv.

    Helping hardworking families by cutting their tax credits and making them poorer deserves sneering at TBF
    Which element of taxing families at source and then giving that tax back as a credit seems to you sensible or robust?

    The UK economy is undergoing structural reform with imported cheap labour and imported lower labour factor costs of production undermining, in particular, the wages of the lower paid. It is part of being in the EU in a globalised world.

    To mitigate this, tax credits were introduced but are wholly unrealistic as a way to run a government. As has oft been quoted, the situation as it stands has the taxpayer subsidising Ocado via tax credits.

    There will be losers, undoubtedly, and if I was one I would be screaming blue murder rather than acknowledging the changing nature of global trade and relative factor inputs.

    But what would you do? GO is trying to reduce distortions in the economy; once that is done then perhaps he will be able to address the situation as he finds it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    This is a great move by Osborne. Gives him cover to push through stuff like the HR3 and other projects like crossrail 2 and any bleating from the likes of Boris will fall on deaf ears, not my decision guv, go and talk to Andrew.

    I agree and can't understand wets like Nelson and Montie who are opposed to infrastructure improvements. HS2,3 and Crossrail 2 are bold and necessary plans - however following that grand path doesn't quite square with thinking LHR is better than Boris island.

  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294



    Of course the tribalists will applaud Osborne for his one-upmanship but from a democratic point of view it stinks, Adonis has resigned the whip and Osborne is feeling smug. Hands up who elected Adonis to head up an important govt commission?

    Not sure I agree. Politics is maybe 70% essentially non-partisan, for all we pretend that decision X is a Labour/Tory act of genius/hideous outrage - something like HS2 is essentially a choice between alternative short/long-term costs and benefits, on which people from either party can reasonably come to different views. What's needed is sober analysis, and I don't begrudge him the chance to do it, nor would I prefer that we had directly-elected heads of commissions to investigate infrastructure - it's a predominantly technical job. There is some political spin in the announcement, of course, but that's not a big deal in the longer run.
    Politics is 70% non partisan?

    I'm going to do something I pledged I would never do on this site and be abusive: that is utter bollox.

    Politics is 99% partisan, as is this site.

    Ring up the Chief Exec of your local Council (or one of your Ward Councillors) and ask him/her what proportion of its decisions are partisan. I expect the answer to be under 10%.

    Go on, try it.

    This site is a different matter: talking utter bollox on here doesn't raise taxes or cost jobs.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013



    Of course the tribalists will applaud Osborne for his one-upmanship but from a democratic point of view it stinks, Adonis has resigned the whip and Osborne is feeling smug. Hands up who elected Adonis to head up an important govt commission?

    Not sure I agree. Politics is maybe 70% essentially non-partisan, for all we pretend that decision X is a Labour/Tory act of genius/hideous outrage - something like HS2 is essentially a choice between alternative short/long-term costs and benefits, on which people from either party can reasonably come to different views. What's needed is sober analysis, and I don't begrudge him the chance to do it, nor would I prefer that we had directly-elected heads of commissions to investigate infrastructure - it's a predominantly technical job. There is some political spin in the announcement, of course, but that's not a big deal in the longer run.
    Politics is 70% non partisan?

    I'm going to do something I pledged I would never do on this site and be abusive: that is utter bollox.

    Politics is 99% partisan, as is this site.

    No, Nick's right. Political media coverage is probably about 99% partisan (actually, even that's not right but it is high), but that's because all the non-partisan stuff gets ignored.

    Even on this site, when we're talking about betting then we're not as partisan because we have to view events through the prism of the world as it is (or as it probably will be), not the world as we'd like it. Similarly, while discussion of policy inevitably is coloured by opinion, that opinion does not necessarily reflect party lines.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited 2015 05
    Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, back when Labour had some basic grounding in economics:

    FN: So, tax credits designed to promote equality of outcome ended up promoting inequality of wages?

    AD: I just think that whenever you introduce any policy on tax, on spend, on benefits, you need to look all the time as to what it’s actually doing – and what are the unintended consequences. One of the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    edited 2015 05
    JEO said:

    Who are we looking at and is that all you get in first class: what looks like free coffee from the machine?
    Depends on the airline. The first class lounge in Virgin is jaw dropping. The first class lounge in British Airways looks like a Mariott breakfast area.
    The Virgin Upper Class lounge at Heathrow is wonderful - great food, bar & spa services - by contrast the Singapore Airlines lounge (a few years back) would have embarrassed Travel Inn.....in the nineties SQ were wonderful - then they started 'Bar opens at mid-day' nonsense.....(what if it wasn't your mid day - you think a long haul airline would understand this,...)
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The Adonis move proves that UKIP were right in saying that the two major parties, Labour and Tory, were so similar in outlook that there was nothing to choose between them.

    The rise of the Corbynistas is one answer to this: the slow evolvement of UKIP into a major party is another. Hopefully!
  • frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    US shopping bags may be weak and dissolve but Americans believe the same is true of UK toilet paper. The NY Jets reported as bringing 350 rolls of bog paper to London for their weekend match.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    What exactly is wrong with being a "party hopper"? Especially if your views are centrist, they could be represented by any one of the main parties, and as even a party member will not agree with anything like 100% of the party programme, then the party which best represents your views may fluctuate. And in any case I think he has taken on what is supposed to be an apolitical job.

    And all Government ministers are unelected, with the possible exception of the Prime Minister. They are elected as MPs, as legislators and to represent their constituencies' interests, not as members of the government.
    Being a party hopper is fine unless your name is Carswell or Reckless.

    If you say so. Personally I am happy with MPs crossing the floor if either their views change or their party changes so that they no longer feels it represents them, or is no longer the right vehicle for them to get their views across. I have never felt that a political party is something to which you owe much loyalty.
    That's fair enough, I was referring to the opprobrium from 1 or 2 on here when Reckless and Carswell did the decent thing last year. I suspect they're now welcoming Adonis with open arms into the broad/big church/tent.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    I love Patrick McCloughlin (from the Call Me Dave Book)

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQilbLWVAAAXWQG.png
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    JEO said:

    Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, back when Labour had some basic grounding in economics:

    FN: So, tax credits designed to promote equality of outcome ended up promoting inequality of wages?

    AD: I just think that whenever you introduce any policy on tax, on spend, on benefits, you need to look all the time as to what it’s actually doing – and what are the unintended consequences. One of the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended.

    So, are wage rises going to compensate families who currently are underpaid?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    edited 2015 05

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    What exactly is wrong with being a "party hopper"? Especially if your views are centrist, they could be represented by any one of the main parties, and as even a party member will not agree with anything like 100% of the party programme, then the party which best represents your views may fluctuate. And in any case I think he has taken on what is supposed to be an apolitical job.

    And all Government ministers are unelected, with the possible exception of the Prime Minister. They are elected as MPs, as legislators and to represent their constituencies' interests, not as members of the government.
    Being a party hopper is fine unless your name is Carswell or Reckless.

    If you say so. Personally I am happy with MPs crossing the floor if either their views change or their party changes so that they no longer feels it represents them, or is no longer the right vehicle for them to get their views across. I have never felt that a political party is something to which you owe much loyalty.
    That's fair enough, I was referring to the opprobrium from 1 or 2 on here when Reckless and Carswell did the decent thing last year. I suspect they're now welcoming Adonis with open arms into the broad/big church/tent.

    The opprobrium heaped on Reckless wasn't that he defected, because defections happen in politics it was because he timed his defection to cause maximum damage to the Tory conference and the Tory party.

    That's why you had so many Tory MPs and activists cheering the Rochester result more than any other in May, even more so than Ed Balls' loss.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Freggles said:

    JEO said:

    Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, back when Labour had some basic grounding in economics:

    FN: So, tax credits designed to promote equality of outcome ended up promoting inequality of wages?

    AD: I just think that whenever you introduce any policy on tax, on spend, on benefits, you need to look all the time as to what it’s actually doing – and what are the unintended consequences. One of the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended.

    So, are wage rises going to compensate families who currently are underpaid?
    That's hard to say. There are more jobs around, so people have the opportunity to move jobs and/or do more hours. Something has to be done about tax credits; whether _this_ something is the right thing to do, I'm not sure (there are so many edge cases, the marginal tax variations make my head hurt).
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492



    Of course the tribalists will applaud Osborne for his one-upmanship but from a democratic point of view it stinks, Adonis has resigned the whip and Osborne is feeling smug. Hands up who elected Adonis to head up an important govt commission?

    Not sure I agree. Politics is maybe 70% essentially non-partisan, for all we pretend that decision X is a Labour/Tory act of genius/hideous outrage - something like HS2 is essentially a choice between alternative short/long-term costs and benefits, on which people from either party can reasonably come to different views. What's needed is sober analysis, and I don't begrudge him the chance to do it, nor would I prefer that we had directly-elected heads of commissions to investigate infrastructure - it's a predominantly technical job. There is some political spin in the announcement, of course, but that's not a big deal in the longer run.
    Politics is 70% non partisan?

    I'm going to do something I pledged I would never do on this site and be abusive: that is utter bollox.

    Politics is 99% partisan, as is this site.

    Ring up the Chief Exec of your local Council (or one of your Ward Councillors) and ask him/her what proportion of its decisions are partisan. I expect the answer to be under 10%.

    Go on, try it.

    This site is a different matter: talking utter bollox on here doesn't raise taxes or cost jobs.

    The chief exec of the local council is not a politician, he's an appointed administrator. I know the leader of the council very well, he is 100% partisan. I know a dozen or so councillors very well, they're probably 99% partisan.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    @DMcCaffreySKY: Charlotte Church to write an open letter to @OwenJBennett and others on behalf of peaceful protesters to apologise for incidents yesterday.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited 2015 05
    JEO said:

    Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, back when Labour had some basic grounding in economics:

    FN: So, tax credits designed to promote equality of outcome ended up promoting inequality of wages?

    AD: I just think that whenever you introduce any policy on tax, on spend, on benefits, you need to look all the time as to what it’s actually doing – and what are the unintended consequences. One of the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended.

    Yes, as we've remarked on here before, housing benefit subsidises landlords (and helps support the house price bubble) and tax credits subsidise bad employers. So, tying this in with non-partisan cross-party policy transfer, a Conservative case for raising the minimum wage will include eliminating these market-distorting subsidies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Eagles, things could be very, very different had Balls not been crushed by the electorate.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013

    Moses_ said:

    George Osborne tweets: Pleased former Labour cabinet minister Andrew Adonis will be National Infrastructure Commission chair.Working together in national interest

    Not as pleased as many in Labour to be rid of the unelected greasy pole dancer.
    Last week he was a good egg Huh? This week not so much? .... Mmmmm and greasy pole dancer? Isn't the common term these days Tory scum?
    His record was one of personal opportunitism long before this. He jumped ship as a Lib Dem parliamentary candidate for 1997 when it was clear that Blair was going to walk the 1997 election, and walked straight into the No 10 policy unit and then into senior ministerial office without ever having to be accountable to any form of electorate. I cannot think of a careerist who more exemplifies the disdain that Blair had for his party and his actions now typify the man. So no, I've never regarded him as a "good egg".

    As for why he should be regarded as a loss, remember that this is the man whose brilliant thinking is going to leave you and I saddled with debt for a £50(+) billion white elephant from which a lot of business elites will do very nicely financially, himself included, but not the likes of you or I who will each be shelling out some £800(+) in taxes as a consequence. If that's the sort of wasteful public spending that Osborne likes, as opposed to the sorts of investment that would change millions of peoples' lives, I think the two are well matched.
    It's an irregular verb:

    I am working in the national interest
    You are a greasy pole climber
    He would sell his grandmother for office
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    Adonis is a party hopper, he's another unelected crony appointed at great expense to run the country, this stinks as an affront to democracy. Osborne is point scoring and empire building at our expense.

    What exactly is wrong with being a "party hopper"? Especially if your views are centrist, they could be represented by any one of the main parties, and as even a party member will not agree with anything like 100% of the party programme, then the party which best represents your views may fluctuate. And in any case I think he has taken on what is supposed to be an apolitical job.

    And all Government ministers are unelected, with the possible exception of the Prime Minister. They are elected as MPs, as legislators and to represent their constituencies' interests, not as members of the government.
    Being a party hopper is fine unless your name is Carswell or Reckless.

    If you say so. Personally I am happy with MPs crossing the floor if either their views change or their party changes so that they no longer feels it represents them, or is no longer the right vehicle for them to get their views across. I have never felt that a political party is something to which you owe much loyalty.
    That's fair enough, I was referring to the opprobrium from 1 or 2 on here when Reckless and Carswell did the decent thing last year. I suspect they're now welcoming Adonis with open arms into the broad/big church/tent.

    The opprobrium heaped on Reckless wasn't that he defected, because defections happen in politics it was because he timed his defection to cause maximum damage to the Tory conference and the Tory party.

    That's why you had so many Tory MPs and activists cheering the Rochester result more than any other in May, even more so than Ed Balls' loss.
    He timed his defection to coincide with the Ukip conference in Doncaster.

    Your post sums up my point entirely, defections are good or bad depending on the party. I'm happy with defections, its the way unelected careerists are foist on the electorate I object to.



  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    I'm not sure what the point of this new quango is. Or to be more blunt, I don't think there is a point. If the Government haven't already had a serious think about infrastructure at this point, what on earth are we doing?

    The point is that infrastructure has become a political football.

    Like with the OBR this is an attempt to create institutions that constrain the desire of politicians to play games.

    It may not work, but if it enables major infrastructure projects to be commissioned on their merits and built regards of a change of government that is a remarkable step forward
    Perhaps we could do everything else like that and do. away wit the need for govt altogether
    I missed this earlier but Mr SquareRoot makes the point perfectly. Why have elections, parties, the commons and lords, just let a few blokes appoint who they want, what could possibly go wrong?

    You (and @Squareroot) are sensible people, so I'm going to assume that you are being deliberately silly.

    Of course the NIC will be subject to democratic oversight, and ultimately any decisions will be the responsibility of the government of the time.

    However, as you can see from the delays over Heathrow expansion (setting aside whether it is the right plan or not) the concerns of a minority of people in a handful of constituencies have delayed implementation of something which is of national importance.

    If you had an independent body working on these kinds of ideas on a long-term basis then you would hopefully give the government of the day the ammunition to make the right decision for the nation, rather than be swayed by the political considerations. Of course, in an ideal world, this wouldn't be necessary, but I have a rather low opinion of politicians.

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Freggles said:

    JEO said:

    Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, back when Labour had some basic grounding in economics....

    If we're going to start quoting Alistair Darling, here's another of his:
    "My principal concern is that if you spend this money on this one railway line, then we will not have the money on maintaining and upgrading existing lines, such as the east coast line. My experience as transport secretary is if you do not spend money on upgrading and improving the track and the trains, then eventually things will start falling apart, as they did in the mid 1990s, and that would be catastrophic."

    Compare and contrast with Lord Adonis.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739

    Mr. Eagles, things could be very, very different had Balls not been crushed by the electorate.

    You should move into political writing

    "My part in the castration of Ed Balls"
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    I'd forgotten how much I HATE the Today prog - that hectoring, sneering manner that involves interrupting and assuming all political guests are something on the bottom of their shoes.

    I've turned off the Osborne intv.

    Helping hardworking families by cutting their tax credits and making them poorer deserves sneering at TBF
    Good morning.

    I have heard Tory Ministers make the general case for moving from tax credits to higher wages, which I generally support. I don't see why taxpayers should subsidise poverty wages paid for by supermarkets and the rest.

    But I did want to hear what Osborne said in response to specific questions about those families who would/might (?) be worse off even after all the changes were brought in - because this is or could be a a problem - and Montagu's interruptions stopped me hearing his answers and forming my own opinion.

    The interviewer's job is to elicit the answers and let the audience make their own mind up. I don't care two hoots for what Montagu or Humphreys think.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited 2015 05

    Moses_ said:

    Mr. Dair, fair enough, though biodegradable bags would still be a better solution.

    MrMorris
    They do have them. Some if not many degrade in sunlight and become fragmented after a while before becoming almost powdery. I think a number of us have found a stored bag to be in pieces. It's time consuming though and the residues are still there though not sure what dangers that poses?

    Isn't that the point about degradable bags, that they umm degrade? You are in fact meant to throw them away. I repeat... What's wrong with brown paper?
    Not much good in the rain.

    Not a problem in Socal, but in So'ton...
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    JEO said:

    Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, back when Labour had some basic grounding in economics:

    FN: So, tax credits designed to promote equality of outcome ended up promoting inequality of wages?

    AD: I just think that whenever you introduce any policy on tax, on spend, on benefits, you need to look all the time as to what it’s actually doing – and what are the unintended consequences. One of the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended.

    Yes, as we've remarked on here before, housing benefit subsidises landlords (and helps support the house price bubble) and tax credits subsidise bad employers. So, tying this in with non-partisan cross-party policy transfer, a Conservative case for raising the minimum wage will include eliminating these market-distorting subsidies.
    Except that the raised minimum wage will be dwarfed by cuts in tax credits for many
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