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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ipsos-MORI boost for Boris in the Cameron successor stakes

We’re going to have to get used to a lot of this – polling on the next Tory leader who could be the next Prime Minister. What’s striking is the huge difference between the all polled split and the numbers restricted to just Tory voters. George is in third place on 15% in the general rating but on 32% in top slot with the latter group.

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Pulpstar

Oh God.

Boris or Corbyn... No thanks !

I'd take any of the four below, though I can't see Gove being particularly popular... Javid is unknown to most at the moment.

Jonathan

Good to see Javid and Gove within the MoE of the perennial Stewart Lewis.

Thinking about it, what proof do we have Gove exists? He could be CGI.

TheScreamingEagles

Sajid is making sure he doesn't peak too soon.

Tory favourites at this stage turn into Devon Loch or John Moore.

TheWhiteRabbit

#partofthe3%

The last part of the survey I took part in I think.

I was tempted to go for Lewis, the troll option...

Richard_Nabavi

Obviously you need to adjust heavily for name recognition, but overall I'd say those are very good figures for Osborne.

Beverley_C

FPT:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Beverley_C said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Tory and proud.

I'll be wearing mine all over Manchester.

I will keep an eye out for you when I am next on the Metro

I usually catch the metro just after 8am at Piccadilly.

I'll have lots of bars of soap to throw at lefties.

8am???

Slacker!

Richard_Nabavi

My wildcard minister still doesn't seem to be on the radar of any bookie. I don't want to reveal the name 'cos I'm hoping to be able to slip in on good odds, but as a general observation I'd say that the market overall is too short on some of the less obvious contenders, and too long on others.

Danny565

Osborne is as popular as the plague rat to anyone who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Tory. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has conversations about politics with anyone "normal".

This way of polling is actually flattering to him too, since he's such a "Marmite" figure. For example, even though he's close to Theresa May on this measure, I'd imagine he would have a much higher "dislike" figure than she does (May would get more "Neutral"/"Don't Know" responses).

Jonathan

Richard_Nabavi said:

Obviously you need to adjust heavily for name recognition, but overall I'd say those are very good figures for Osborne.

Indeed, powering ahead. And developing reach beyond his base.

An Osborne v. Johnson leadership election would be very entertaining.

Beverley_C

Why does everyone assume that Osbourne wants the job? I do not recall him ever saying anything about it

Richard_Nabavi

Jonathan said:

Indeed, powering ahead. And developing reach beyond his base.

An Osborne v. Johnson leadership election would be very entertaining.

It would be entertaining. I think Osborne would win.

I think Boris has missed the bus TBH. He would represent the high-stakes high-risk gamble option, which can make sense if you've just lost an election but doesn't make much sense when you've just won one and are planning to go for the next one on a message of stability and security.

Dair

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Edit - I see in the previous thread Sunil points out that the convoy had one obsolete AC in it HMS Hermes. At 23,000 tons Hermes was an LCV by 1983 and no longer could be considered an AC. Actually Wiki defines the Centaur class as always being LCVs.

Jonathan

Danny565 said:

Osborne is as popular as the plague rat to anyone who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Tory. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has conversations about politics with anyone "normal".

Not true, well at least not in my family where two regular Labour voters have come to prefer Osborne to both Corbyn and Cameron.

Jonathan

Beverley_C said:

Why does everyone assume that Osbourne wants the job? I do not recall him ever saying anything about it

dead give away

kle4

Danny565 said:

Osborne is as popular as the plague rat to anyone who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Tory. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has conversations about politics with anyone "normal".

This way of polling is actually flattering to him too, since he's such a "Marmite" figure. For example, even though he's close to Theresa May on this measure, I'd imagine he would have a much higher "dislike" figure than she does (May would get more "Neutral"/"Don't Know" responses).

I think the first paragraph is certainly what has been the case, to the point despite being Chancellor he was not even considered likely as a successor until relatively recently. I think the next few years are crucial for his ambitions, to see if that issue among non-tories can be ameliorated somewhat. If it can't his chances are much less unless the Tories are so far in front it doesn't matter (which seems improbable even in a worst case scenario for Labour). He has a chance with the public, he's trying to reinvent himself a little I feel, but his work is cut out for him.

Beverley_C

Jonathan said:

Beverley_C said:

Why does everyone assume that Osbourne wants the job? I do not recall him ever saying anything about it

dead give away

A sort of political "Munchausen by proxy"?

John_M

Danny565 said:

Osborne is as popular as the plague rat to anyone who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Tory. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has conversations about politics with anyone "normal".

This way of polling is actually flattering to him too, since he's such a "Marmite" figure. For example, even though he's close to Theresa May on this measure, I'd imagine he would have a much higher "dislike" figure than she does (May would get more "Neutral"/"Don't Know" responses).

I'm going to assert that none of us PB posters can accurately assess what "normal" is, does or thinks . We are all living in Anorakland.

TOPPING

Beverley_C said:

Why does everyone assume that Osbourne wants the job? I do not recall him ever saying anything about it

1. He always was supposed to want FS.
2. BWNBPM
3. Er...
4. That's it.

Danny565

Jonathan said:

Danny565 said:

Osborne is as popular as the plague rat to anyone who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Tory. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has conversations about politics with anyone "normal".

Not true, well at least not in my family where two regular Labour voters have come to prefer Osborne to both Corbyn and Cameron.

People at my work are indifferent to Cameron, but absolutely loathe Osborne. This seems less about his policies tbf, and more that he reminds people of that kind of upper-class arrogant dick who people would love to punch in the face (Cameron and Boris are better at atleast pretending to be down-to-earth).

Had Osborne been leader in May, my guess is he would've got a lot more of the "Lazy Labour" voters pissed off enough to turn out.

flightpath01

You all need to think ahead. Who will be Osborne's campaign manager?
'We will all know that Cameron's project has succeeded when the tory party grow to love George Osborne'

kle4

Beverley_C said:

Why does everyone assume that Osbourne wants the job? I do not recall him ever saying anything about it

He's a loyal Chancellor, very loyal, I don't think he would have said such a thing. I also think he knows he has polled poorly for a long time and so didn't seem to have much a chance, so he concentrated on a power base behind the scenes or through others instead, he has allies who would he would hope rely on him in a post Cameron party. Had Cameron lost it would have been a moot point if Osborne wanted the job or not, he would not have gotten it.

But now? Cameron won and Osborne is his indisputed No.2, with a Tory party currently flush with victory and so probably overly optimistic (even accepting Labour have given them reason to be optimistic), and in those circumstances, if the economy holds up, I think Osborne may have started to believe that even with his historic perception concerns, the party and the public may be more ready to accept him as a continuity Cameroon candidate.

He might be wrong, but my theory is he at least thinks he has a chance now, where he didn't before. He does seem to have stretched out his tendrils to even more areas, on europe and foreign affairs and so on, as a means to show he is more than just a Chancellor, he can be a leader as well. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

Charles

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

TheScreamingEagles

Last year Ipsos Mori found that Ozzy was like the most popular Tory chancellor ever.

People should not misunderestimate him.

He's a truly great strategist. As we found out in May when he destroyed the Lib Dems and stopped Labour in England

DavidL

Unless the Tories are crazy enough to allow Corbyn style entryism (and thank goodness they are not; we need at least one sane party to run the country) Boris' popularity amongst the population at large is irrelevant since the population at large does not get a vote.

I would suspect that Osborne not only leads amongst Tory supporters but leads by rather more amongst Tory party members who are generally less enthusiastic than most about mavericks. The voodoo polling on Conservative Home seems to suggest that too. There is still a long way to go and events can get in the way but it is hard to see other potential leaders getting near their recognition, even by 2019.

If Osborne backed Javid, for example, other possibilities might arise but otherwise I would be very confident that Osborne will be one of the choices put to the membership and rather less confident that Boris would be the other.

blackburn63

There's some opinionated people on here, only to be expected, but is anybody as angry as Mr Dair?

Dair

flightpath01 said:

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

No, we badly needed a proper aircraft carrier in the Falklands. Lives were lost as a result.
The two being built are a poor substitute despite their size and cost. They should be nuclear powered and have catapults.
The cost of the T45s to defend them over their lifetime will be about 40bn. The T45s however do have some capability to defend us from ICBMs, but that is another film...

Isn't that part of the point. The new ACs are pish poor and unfit for purpose. Much like Trident.

It's just willy waving and trying to "punch above our weight" in a way that any realistic analysis quite easily dismisses as nonsense. We are spending billions on two ACs. One will never be used. The other will never be fully laden (even if some planes actually end up being bought) and it is unlikely that the UK will ever be able to commit to a full Carrier Battle Group anyway - leaving any deployment vulnerable).

Who is being fooled? The public, perhaps. But the point of expensive military hardware is not to fool the public, it is to fool/deter potential opponents. And I doubt that the UK is fooling any of them.

TheScreamingEagles

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Edit. Sajid works better as Octavian with Ozzy as Mark Antony

flightpath01

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Edit - I see in the previous thread Sunil points out that the convoy had one obsolete AC in it HMS Hermes. At 23,000 tons Hermes was an LCV by 1983 and no longer could be considered an AC. Actually Wiki defines the Centaur class as always being LCVs.

No, we badly needed a proper aircraft carrier in the Falklands. Lives were lost as a result.
The two being built are a poor substitute despite their size and cost. They should be nuclear powered and have catapults.
The cost of the T45s to defend them over their lifetime will be about 40bn. The T45s however do have some capability to defend us from ICBMs, but that is another film...

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Not Marc Antony?

JEO

What a farce the UN is:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/01/world/middleeast/western-nations-drop-push-for-un-inquiry-into-yemen-conflict.html?_r=0

Saudi Arabia gets appointed to the UN Human Rights Council, and then the UN drops the investigation into Saudi Arabia's abuses in Yemen.

TheScreamingEagles

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Not Marc Antony?

Already edited.

Both work.

Sunil_Prasannan

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Edit - I see in the previous thread Sunil points out that the convoy had one obsolete AC in it HMS Hermes. At 23,000 tons Hermes was an LCV by 1983 and no longer could be considered an AC. Actually Wiki defines the Centaur class as always being LCVs.

Hermes later transferred to India in 1986 (INS Viraat). Still in service with the Indians.

Dair

JEO said:

What a farce the UN is:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/01/world/middleeast/western-nations-drop-push-for-un-inquiry-into-yemen-conflict.html?_r=0

Saudi Arabia gets appointed to the UN Human Rights Council, and then the UN drops the investigation into Saudi Arabia's abuses in Yemen.

That works on so many levels, I genuinely laughed out loud.

Danny565

https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/649574987452542976

Dair

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Edit - I see in the previous thread Sunil points out that the convoy had one obsolete AC in it HMS Hermes. At 23,000 tons Hermes was an LCV by 1983 and no longer could be considered an AC. Actually Wiki defines the Centaur class as always being LCVs.

Hermes later transferred to India in 1986 (INS Viraat). Still in service with the Indians.

Do you know if they are planning to replace it? I would see no reason why India could not afford to buy and run a decommissioned Nimitz class (or build their own if the US won't sell).

It would be interesting if they see no need to do so despite being in a far more fractious part of the world, with actual ongoing border conflicts including with an actual bone fide super power.

I see they still fly Harriers as well.

TheScreamingEagles

The other interesting aspect to all of this, this is the first time Tory members will be voting to choose someone who will become PM as I expect will stand down in 2018/19

That will be a new dynamic.

Will only be the second time the Tories have elected a new leader whilst in office.

AlastairMeeks

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Edit. Sajid works better as Octavian with Ozzy as Mark Antony

I don't think either George Osborne or Sajid Javid would relish the idea of going down to a crushing defeat at the hands of the Germans.

geoffw

@DavidL ...Boris' popularity amongst the population at large is irrelevant since the population at large does not get a vote.

Only irrelevant if you think the selectorate doesn't take into account wider popularity.

flightpath01

kle4 said:

Beverley_C said:

Why does everyone assume that Osbourne wants the job? I do not recall him ever saying anything about it

He's a loyal Chancellor, very loyal, I don't think he would have said such a thing. I also think he knows he has polled poorly for a long time and so didn't seem to have much a chance, so he concentrated on a power base behind the scenes or through others instead, he has allies who would he would hope rely on him in a post Cameron party. Had Cameron lost it would have been a moot point if Osborne wanted the job or not, he would not have gotten it.

....

He might be wrong, but my theory is he at least thinks he has a chance now, where he didn't before. He does seem to have stretched out his tendrils to even more areas, on europe and foreign affairs and so on, as a means to show he is more than just a Chancellor, he can be a leader as well. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

I said quite some time ago - when growth returned and the triple dip turned out to be pants and Balls has the grin wiped off his face - that if the Tories won the election then Osborne would be the next PM.
What were the odds back then?

TheScreamingEagles

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Edit. Sajid works better as Octavian with Ozzy as Mark Antony

I don't think either George Osborne or Sajid Javid would relish the idea of going down to a crushing defeat at the hands of the Germans.

Yeah but they set up an empire that lasted centuries.

The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest was a minor set back in the grand scheme of things.

TGOHF

Dair said:

flightpath01 said:

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

No, we badly needed a proper aircraft carrier in the Falklands. Lives were lost as a result.
The two being built are a poor substitute despite their size and cost. They should be nuclear powered and have catapults.
The cost of the T45s to defend them over their lifetime will be about 40bn. The T45s however do have some capability to defend us from ICBMs, but that is another film...

The new ACs are pish poor and unfit for purpose. Much like Trident.

.

Lol - Dair now writes for Jane's Defence Weekly ?

TCPoliticalBetting

The Europhile ones still have to get chosen by the Eurosceptic members.

Dair

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Edit. Sajid works better as Octavian with Ozzy as Mark Antony

I don't think either George Osborne or Sajid Javid would relish the idea of going down to a crushing defeat at the hands of the Germans.

Yeah but they set up an empire that lasted centuries.

The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest was a minor set back in the grand scheme of things.

Michael Ashcroft as Arminius?

Cyclefree

Hello all,

I think Boris - while a reasonable Mayor - is overrated as a PM. For all his much reputed intelligence he is not serious. Plus I think his time has gone.

flightpath01

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Edit. Sajid works better as Octavian with Ozzy as Mark Antony

I don't think either George Osborne or Sajid Javid would relish the idea of going down to a crushing defeat at the hands of the Germans.

Or as Corbyn would say... 'see I damn him with a spot'

Or as Ashcroft tried to say, 'see I damn him with a Gloucestershire Old Spot'

TheScreamingEagles

Dair said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Edit. Sajid works better as Octavian with Ozzy as Mark Antony

I don't think either George Osborne or Sajid Javid would relish the idea of going down to a crushing defeat at the hands of the Germans.

Yeah but they set up an empire that lasted centuries.

The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest was a minor set back in the grand scheme of things.

Michael Ashcroft as Arminius?

He's more a Carry on Caesar type of person.

I come to bury Cameron, not praise him....

SandyRentool

The majority of Tories want us to Leave.

Look for a Leaver to be next leader.

Priti.

Sunil_Prasannan

Dair said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Edit - I see in the previous thread Sunil points out that the convoy had one obsolete AC in it HMS Hermes. At 23,000 tons Hermes was an LCV by 1983 and no longer could be considered an AC. Actually Wiki defines the Centaur class as always being LCVs.

Hermes later transferred to India in 1986 (INS Viraat). Still in service with the Indians.

Do you know if they are planning to replace it? I would see no reason why India could not afford to buy and run a decommissioned Nimitz class (or build their own if the US won't sell).

It would be interesting if they see no need to do so despite being in a far more fractious part of the world, with actual ongoing border conflicts including with an actual bone fide super power.

I see they still fly Harriers as well.

They purchased the former Soviet carrier Baku and put her in commission as Vikramaditya in 2013, and there are at least two indigenous carrier under construction, including a namesake of Vikrant, India's first LCV, which was purchased in 1957 and decommissioned in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikrant-class_aircraft_carrier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(R11)

TheScreamingEagles

SandyRentool said:

The majority of Tories want us to Leave.

Look for a Leaver to be next leader.

Priti.

As much as I would love for the Tories to elect an ethnic minority women to wind up Labour supporters, her position on the death penalty and her laughable attempts to defend it will come back to haunt her.

Cyclefree

geoffw said:

@DavidL ...Boris' popularity amongst the population at large is irrelevant since the population at large does not get a vote.

Only irrelevant if you think the selectorate doesn't take into account wider popularity.

Is Boris really that popular outside London? I'm not at all sure that he is.

TCPoliticalBetting

TheScreamingEagles said:

Last year Ipsos Mori found that Ozzy was like the most popular Tory chancellor ever.

People should not misunderestimate him.

He's a truly great strategist. As we found out in May when he destroyed the Lib Dems and stopped Labour in England

The Lib Dem strategy was not Osborne's. It started in the anti-LD unit run by Ashcroft pre2010 and it became successful once the LD vote dropped by 2/3. The campaign messages against Labour were set by Crosby.

Jonathan

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Or Brown, to Dave's Blair.

Osborne is tracking Brown's popularity quite well so far.

TCPoliticalBetting

SandyRentool said:

The majority of Tories want us to Leave.
Look for a Leaver to be next leader.

Agreed

TheScreamingEagles

TCPoliticalBetting said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Last year Ipsos Mori found that Ozzy was like the most popular Tory chancellor ever.

People should not misunderestimate him.

He's a truly great strategist. As we found out in May when he destroyed the Lib Dems and stopped Labour in England

The Lib Dem strategy was not Osborne's. It started in the anti-LD unit run by Ashcroft pre2010 and it became successful once the LD vote dropped by 2/3. The campaign messages against Labour were set by Crosby.

Osborne was also crucial in the decision not to try and outKip ukip but run a campaign on the economy and pragmatic one nation conservatism.

Worked wonders.

TGOHF

Alex Massie indulges in a bit of Sturgeonfreud..

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/sleze-cronyism-and-the-snp-the-new-politics-is-charmingly-familiar/

geoffw

Cyclefree said:

geoffw said:

@DavidL ...Boris' popularity amongst the population at large is irrelevant since the population at large does not get a vote.

Only irrelevant if you think the selectorate doesn't take into account wider popularity.

Is Boris really that popular outside London? I'm not at all sure that he is.

Perhaps he isn't. The selectorate would take that into account too.

TheScreamingEagles

Jonathan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Or Brown, to Dave's Blair.

Osborne is tracking Brown's popularity quite well so far.

Except he's not boasted about abolishing boom and bust.

When a recession comes that should insulate Ozzy.

isam

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

Tissue_Price

Richard_Nabavi said:

My wildcard minister still doesn't seem to be on the radar of any bookie. I don't want to reveal the name 'cos I'm hoping to be able to slip in on good odds, but as a general observation I'd say that the market overall is too short on some of the less obvious contenders, and too long on others.

I think the biggest error in the market is Osborne. He should be odds-on, even allowing for all the folk wisdom. Maybe somewhere in the 8/11 - 5/6 range.

Lennon

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

You could just have - "Leave. For Britain"

Jonathan

TheScreamingEagles said:

Jonathan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Or Brown, to Dave's Blair.

Osborne is tracking Brown's popularity quite well so far.

Except he's not boasted about abolishing boom and bust.

Not yet he hasn't. Nor had Brown five years into office.

Sean_F

Cyclefree said:

geoffw said:

@DavidL ...Boris' popularity amongst the population at large is irrelevant since the population at large does not get a vote.

Only irrelevant if you think the selectorate doesn't take into account wider popularity.

Is Boris really that popular outside London? I'm not at all sure that he is.

Yes, I think he is. Being popular, however, does not make you a good leader on its own.

flightpath01

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Dair said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Edit - I see in the previous thread Sunil points out that the convoy had one obsolete AC in it HMS Hermes. At 23,000 tons Hermes was an LCV by 1983 and no longer could be considered an AC. Actually Wiki defines the Centaur class as always being LCVs.

Hermes later transferred to India in 1986 (INS Viraat). Still in service with the Indians.

Do you know if they are planning to replace it? I would see no reason why India could not afford to buy and run a decommissioned Nimitz class (or build their own if the US won't sell).

It would be interesting if they see no need to do so despite being in a far more fractious part of the world, with actual ongoing border conflicts including with an actual bone fide super power.

I see they still fly Harriers as well.

They purchased the former Soviet carrier Baku and put her in commission as Vikramaditya in 2013, and there are at least two indigenous carrier under construction, including a namesake of Vikrant, India's first LCV, which was purchased in 1957 and decommissioned in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikrant-class_aircraft_carrier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(R11)

India are building a class of balistic missile armed submarine. So much for Mr Corbyn and his fellow travellers.

'Nuclear weapons are cheap. Nuclear weapons are easy'

India's carrier in building is smaller than the QE2's but the one it is planning will be nuclear powered and have catapults.
Once again we see how useless labour were with our defences.

watford30

flightpath01 said:

Dair said:

richardDodd said:

Dair Why is a very important and successful part of the nations defense force seen to be a waste of time..like insurance .. you don't need it until you need it..do try and grow up..

The UK has been without an Aircraft Carrier (an actual AC not a LCV) since 1979 (arguably since the mid-60s as the Audacious class was obsolete after the first Super Carriers deployed). The UK successfully deployed to the Falklands despite having no AC and have carried out all military deployments since then with no AC.

QE and PC are complete wastes of money, pork barrel politics of the worst kind at the behest of the former member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Edit - I see in the previous thread Sunil points out that the convoy had one obsolete AC in it HMS Hermes. At 23,000 tons Hermes was an LCV by 1983 and no longer could be considered an AC. Actually Wiki defines the Centaur class as always being LCVs.

No, we badly needed a proper aircraft carrier in the Falklands. Lives were lost as a result.
The two being built are a poor substitute despite their size and cost. They should be nuclear powered and have catapults.

Conventional power was chosen for design and engineering reasons. Plus nuclear powered warships are also excluded by many ports and countries, which the RN weren't too keen on. It's unlikely the ships would have been allowed to berth in Portsmouth, a problem they were keen to avoid too.

MTimT

Lennon said:

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

You could just have - "Leave. For Britain"

or "For Britain. Leave"

Dair

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Dair said:

Do you know if they are planning to replace it? I would see no reason why India could not afford to buy and run a decommissioned Nimitz class (or build their own if the US won't sell).

It would be interesting if they see no need to do so despite being in a far more fractious part of the world, with actual ongoing border conflicts including with an actual bone fide super power.

I see they still fly Harriers as well.

They purchased the former Soviet carrier Baku and put her in commission as Vikramaditya in 2013, and there are at least two indigenous carrier under construction, including a namesake of Vikrant, India's first LCV, which was purchased in 1957 and decommissioned in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikrant-class_aircraft_carrier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(R11)

So they're actually building a more realistic 40k tonner while the admirals dream of a 65k. Admirals dreams eh, lucky no sensible politician will give in to them and actually build such a white elephant.

Or two

It does show that despite being in an active military zone, the Indian naval ambition is so much less than that which the UK is wasting money on.

HMS Ocean remains the best decision the Navy has made in the last 50 years. Yet it's still a single class of one with nothing remotely similar on the horizon. Cost £150m.

Sean_F

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Charles

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

"For Britain" as a slogan also completely reverses the perceived negatively of a no/leave campaign by positioning it as being in favour of "a good thing" (Britain).

And it's pretty difficult to argue why you don't support "For Britain"...

Richard_Nabavi

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Ouch!

JEO

Charles said:

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

"For Britain" as a slogan also completely reverses the perceived negatively of a no/leave campaign by positioning it as being in favour of "a good thing" (Britain).

And it's pretty difficult to argue why you don't support "For Britain"...

I think the "Time to Leave" slogan is a good one, in terms of sounding like a grown-up, mature, low risk thing to do. Like knowing when to call it a night.

Beverley_C

kle4 said:

Beverley_C said:

Why does everyone assume that Osbourne wants the job? I do not recall him ever saying anything about it

He's a loyal Chancellor, very loyal,
...
He might be wrong, but my theory is he at least thinks he has a chance now, where he didn't before.

Maybe he will surprise everyone by staying at the No. 2 or No. 3 slot and let some other person have a swing at PM. If he is half as clever as some people reckon him to be then he must known what his chances are with Joe & Joanne Public.

Singing to the party faithful and expecting a landslide is Labour's new technique. Let us hope Ozzy learns from Corbyn

geoffw

Lennon said:

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

You could just have - "Leave. For Britain"

"Leave it. Out"

rottenborough

Richard_Nabavi said:

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Ouch!

Whereas Stewart Lewis does. Must be gutting for her.

MTimT

Charles said:

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

"For Britain" as a slogan also completely reverses the perceived negatively of a no/leave campaign by positioning it as being in favour of "a good thing" (Britain).

And it's pretty difficult to argue why you don't support "For Britain"...

Hence my suggestion of "For Britain. Leave" It implies, if you are for Britain, the only option is to leave - i.e. leaving is a good thing.

madasafish

Jonathan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Jonathan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I reckon Osborne will be the Octavian to Dave's Caesar.

Or Brown, to Dave's Blair.

Osborne is tracking Brown's popularity quite well so far.

Except he's not boasted about abolishing boom and bust.

Not yet he hasn't. Nor had Brown five years into office.

Osborne has not raped Prudence every year though :-)

TheScreamingEagles

The best slogans for leave should be either

1) Better out than in

Or

2) I'm a beLeaver.

flightpath01

Dair said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Dair said:

Do you know if they are planning to replace it? I would see no reason why India could not afford to buy and run a decommissioned Nimitz class (or build their own if the US won't sell).

It would be interesting if they see no need to do so despite being in a far more fractious part of the world, with actual ongoing border conflicts including with an actual bone fide super power.

I see they still fly Harriers as well.

They purchased the former Soviet carrier Baku and put her in commission as Vikramaditya in 2013, and there are at least two indigenous carrier under construction, including a namesake of Vikrant, India's first LCV, which was purchased in 1957 and decommissioned in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikrant-class_aircraft_carrier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(R11)

So they're actually building a more realistic 40k tonner while the admirals dream of a 65k. Admirals dreams eh, lucky no sensible politician will give in to them and actually build such a white elephant.

Or two

It does show that despite being in an active military zone, the Indian naval ambition is so much less than that which the UK is wasting money on.

HMS Ocean remains the best decision the Navy has made in the last 50 years. Yet it's still a single class of one with nothing remotely similar on the horizon. Cost £150m.

HMS Ocean is an amphibious landing ship, built to 'commercial standards'.it carries landing craft and has a stern ramp.

TheScreamingEagles

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Female Tory education secretary has her leadership ambitions and chances dismissed just like that.

Sounds familiar. Nicky Morgan is the new Margaret Thatcher.

I can do a Sunday thread on that.

Sean_F

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Female Tory education secretary has her leadership ambitions and chances dismissed just like that.

Sounds familiar. Nicky Morgan is the new Margaret Thatcher.

I can do a Sunday thread on that.

"I knew Margaret Thatcher. Margaret Thatcher was my friend. Nicky Morgan, you're no Margaret Thatcher."

AlastairMeeks

If I were drafting a slogan for Leave I think I would be drawn towards:

Let's Just Be Friends

Charles

Sean_F said:

Cyclefree said:

geoffw said:

@DavidL ...Boris' popularity amongst the population at large is irrelevant since the population at large does not get a vote.

Only irrelevant if you think the selectorate doesn't take into account wider popularity.

Is Boris really that popular outside London? I'm not at all sure that he is.

Yes, I think he is. Being popular, however, does not make you a good leader on its own.

Are you sure?

I vaguely remember a thread from last year where polling showed that he didn't add much to the Tories outside of their core Home Counties and was negative in the critical Northern/Midland marginals.

Boris = Corbyn

Artist

The question with Boris is what he is going to do for the next four years. It has only been five months since he has been a backbencher but it already feels like he has been in the political wilderness for a while. Without taking a cabinet role, it is very difficult to see him stepping straight into the PM position.

Theresa May is in a good position. She's in a top job but not enough to be tainted if the Tories fortunes take a worse turn in the next few years.

isam

Charles said:

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

"For Britain" as a slogan also completely reverses the perceived negatively of a no/leave campaign by positioning it as being in favour of "a good thing" (Britain).

And it's pretty difficult to argue why you don't support "For Britain"...

Yes I like it

My idea was 'just say no' linking to the grange hill anti drug song as a way of making 'no' a positive... But as it's now 'leave' that's redundant

So...

http://youtu.be/WbrSLLv0AlA

In honesty, establishment ideas that speak to the masses are probably better than anything too gimmicky that may seem jokey

isam

Sean_F said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Female Tory education secretary has her leadership ambitions and chances dismissed just like that.

Sounds familiar. Nicky Morgan is the new Margaret Thatcher.

I can do a Sunday thread on that.

"I knew Margaret Thatcher. Margaret Thatcher was my friend. Nicky Morgan, you're no Margaret Thatcher."

Nicky Morgan could blow JOB away en route to the conservative leadership

TheScreamingEagles

Artist said:

The question with Boris is what he is going to do for the next four years. It has only been five months since he has been a backbencher but it already feels like he has been in the political wilderness for a while. Without taking a cabinet role, it is very difficult to see him stepping straight into the PM position.

Theresa May is in a good position. She's in a top job but not enough to be tainted if the Tories fortunes take a worse turn in the next few years.

Reshuffle and Dave makes Boris a full cabinet member (he's currently a member of the political cabinet)

Boris becomes Education Secretary. Would be bloody brilliant to have a Classicist as Education Secretary.

richardDodd

I see Sturgeon is using the same weak excuse as Dair.."Not at this moment a member of the SNP" Truly pathetic and fools absolutely no one..except the very foolish..

Charles

MTimT said:

Charles said:

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

"For Britain" as a slogan also completely reverses the perceived negatively of a no/leave campaign by positioning it as being in favour of "a good thing" (Britain).

And it's pretty difficult to argue why you don't support "For Britain"...

Hence my suggestion of "For Britain. Leave" It implies, if you are for Britain, the only option is to leave - i.e. leaving is a good thing.

I agree.

I also like Time to Leave with the For Britain logo at the bottom, although that strikes me as a specific campaign line rather than the banner slogan.

kle4

Danny565 said:

http://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/649574987452542976

So either he is becoming more right wing and people are noticing, or perhaps as he has become more successful more of those on the right who thought he was a bit wet are deciding he is pretty right wing after all, or a mixture of the two perhaps?

Richard_Nabavi

Boris is very popular in the Conservative Party, in the sense that people like him and he's a sell-out star at any events he appears in. I'm not sure that popularity in that sense translates into a vote for him in a leadership campaign, however - even assuming that he gets into the final two presented by MPs to members.

Dair

flightpath01 said:

Dair said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Dair said:

Do you know if they are planning to replace it? I would see no reason why India could not afford to buy and run a decommissioned Nimitz class (or build their own if the US won't sell).

It would be interesting if they see no need to do so despite being in a far more fractious part of the world, with actual ongoing border conflicts including with an actual bone fide super power.

I see they still fly Harriers as well.

They purchased the former Soviet carrier Baku and put her in commission as Vikramaditya in 2013, and there are at least two indigenous carrier under construction, including a namesake of Vikrant, India's first LCV, which was purchased in 1957 and decommissioned in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikrant-class_aircraft_carrier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(R11)

So they're actually building a more realistic 40k tonner while the admirals dream of a 65k. Admirals dreams eh, lucky no sensible politician will give in to them and actually build such a white elephant.

Or two

It does show that despite being in an active military zone, the Indian naval ambition is so much less than that which the UK is wasting money on.

HMS Ocean remains the best decision the Navy has made in the last 50 years. Yet it's still a single class of one with nothing remotely similar on the horizon. Cost £150m.

HMS Ocean is an amphibious landing ship, built to 'commercial standards'.it carries landing craft and has a stern ramp.

Ocean is a classed as an Amphibious Assault Ship but its primary function (and its design history) is as a Helicopter Carrier.

But never mind, if you don't like it, I'm sure Marine Scotland will happily add it to our fleet then we can devolve naval services and stop Scotland having to pay for a Royal Navy that can't serve the needs of Scotland.

MTimT

TheScreamingEagles said:

The best slogans for leave should be either

1) Better out than in

Or

2) I'm a beLeaver.

#2 is a great bumper sticker, but not so good as the main tag line.

flightpath01

TCPoliticalBetting said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Last year Ipsos Mori found that Ozzy was like the most popular Tory chancellor ever.

People should not misunderestimate him.

He's a truly great strategist. As we found out in May when he destroyed the Lib Dems and stopped Labour in England

The Lib Dem strategy was not Osborne's. It started in the anti-LD unit run by Ashcroft pre2010 and it became successful once the LD vote dropped by 2/3. The campaign messages against Labour were set by Crosby.

The LD strategy had nothing to do with Ashcroft. The LDs dug their own grave.
Crosby manned the machine guns but Osborne passed the ammunition.

Tissue_Price

Sean_F said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Female Tory education secretary has her leadership ambitions and chances dismissed just like that.

Sounds familiar. Nicky Morgan is the new Margaret Thatcher.

I can do a Sunday thread on that.

"I knew Margaret Thatcher. Margaret Thatcher was my friend. Nicky Morgan, you're no Margaret Thatcher."

No, she's a shorter price:
https://twitter.com/thehistoryguy/status/634058977609953280

TheScreamingEagles

Sean_F said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Female Tory education secretary has her leadership ambitions and chances dismissed just like that.

Sounds familiar. Nicky Morgan is the new Margaret Thatcher.

I can do a Sunday thread on that.

"I knew Margaret Thatcher. Margaret Thatcher was my friend. Nicky Morgan, you're no Margaret Thatcher."

Harsh. Very harsh to compare any one to Dan Quayle.

AlastairMeeks

Richard_Nabavi said:

Boris is very popular in the Conservative Party, in the sense that people like him and he's a sell-out star at any events he appears in. I'm not sure that popularity in that sense translates a vote for him in a leadership campaign, however - even assuming that he gets into the final two presented by MPs to members.

He has a touch of the Lord Hailsham about him.

Charles

antifrank said:

If I were drafting a slogan for Leave I think I would be drawn towards:

Let's Just Be Friends

It's Not You, It's Me

TCPoliticalBetting

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sean_F said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sean_F said:

I see Nicky Morgan doesn't rate a mention in this poll. I think she's suffering from delusions of adequacy.

Female Tory education secretary has her leadership ambitions and chances dismissed just like that.

Sounds familiar. Nicky Morgan is the new Margaret Thatcher.

I can do a Sunday thread on that.

"I knew Margaret Thatcher. Margaret Thatcher was my friend. Nicky Morgan, you're no Margaret Thatcher."

Harsh. Very harsh to compare any one to Dan Quayle.

Seems very apt. She is similar to Maria Miller.

Pong

Tissue_Price said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

My wildcard minister still doesn't seem to be on the radar of any bookie. I don't want to reveal the name 'cos I'm hoping to be able to slip in on good odds, but as a general observation I'd say that the market overall is too short on some of the less obvious contenders, and too long on others.

I think the biggest error in the market is Osborne. He should be odds-on, even allowing for all the folk wisdom. Maybe somewhere in the 8/11 - 5/6 range.

Does he actually want the gig though?

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

I remain unconvinced. It's down to the PCP as to who reaches the final two, and I don't think Boris' stock has high value with them. Conservatives MPs will be even more acutely aware of their responsibility than usual, having witnessed the collective idiocy of the PLP recently.

Charles

isam said:

Charles said:

isam said:

Charles said:

FPT

I'm intrigued by the choice of Lawson's campaign group name as "Conservatives for Britain".

I'm tangentially involved in "Business for Britain" which is studiously cross party.

But it's an interesting chance which doesn't strike me as a concidence. Could you see other groups with a similar name speaking to specific interest areas (perhaps even "Kippers for Britain") coming together under a "For Britain" banner group?

("Leave, for Britain's sake" doesn't quite work as a slogan for me, but it feels like there is something you could do with the concept)

Good thinking

"For Britain" as a slogan also completely reverses the perceived negatively of a no/leave campaign by positioning it as being in favour of "a good thing" (Britain).

And it's pretty difficult to argue why you don't support "For Britain"...

Yes I like it

My idea was 'just say no' linking to the grange hill anti drug song as a way of making 'no' a positive... But as it's now 'leave' that's redundant

So...

http://youtu.be/WbrSLLv0AlA

In honesty, establishment ideas that speak to the masses are probably better than anything too gimmicky that may seem jokey

"Establishment ideas that speak to the masses"

From you, I'll take that as a compliment!