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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » First polling reaction to Corbyn speech – an Ipsos MORI foc

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  • alex. said:

    antifrank said:
    Yep, that is a humdinger of a story.
    I see that Corbyn changed 'sanctity' ('the state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly') to 'clout', something which was already covered by 'power'.
    Does 'responsibility' come in anywhere as a counterpoint to that ridiculous diatribe?

    As I understand it these words were not actually used by Miliband in 2011, but were 'offered' as an open letter in a series of blogposts.
    It alters not that they were casually plagiarized without acknowledgement of course, passed off as Corbyn's own originality of thought. I'm sure Heller is delighted - he did add on his blog 'open to others on application'.
    The other point remains that this dates back to 2011 and was out of date then (he talks of job losses on his blog - we have record numbers in work now).
    Which Presidential candidate got laughed out of town for plagiarizing a British (Blair??) politician's speech???
    Joe Biden/Kinnock
    Biden!! The man who survived to be VP? And who is thinking of running again?? I have to say I had forgotten it was Kinnock. Makes it worse of course.
  • Mr. Eagles, is that meant to be reassuring, or frightening? :p
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015
    Roger said:

    Antifrank and 25 others........

    "We'll hear a lot more about this:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/much-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-today-was-written-for-ed-miliband-in-2011/"

    Sometimes it's impossible to even imagine the trivia with which some people occupy their minds

    From the man who makes a living filming rice and vacuum cleaners, to push sales to a gullible public.
  • Iain Dale suggested the fact that this speech was written 4 years ago may well be a "Westminster bubble" story! I suspect he may be right.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Lloyd Evans 2p http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/corbyns-conference-speech-proves-that-he-shouldnt-be-underestimated/
    These sound-bites may seem oddly familiar. ‘A strong military. Help for the self-employed. A housing policy that delivers a profit for the tax-payer. Labour values are British values.’

    Straight from the New Labour hand-book, every one of them.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited September 2015

    antifrank said:
    Yep, that is a humdinger of a story.
    I see that Corbyn changed 'sanctity' ('the state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly') to 'clout', something which was already covered by 'power'.
    Does 'responsibility' come in anywhere as a counterpoint to that ridiculous diatribe?

    As I understand it these words were not actually used by Miliband in 2011, but were 'offered' as an open letter in a series of blogposts.
    It alters not that they were casually plagiarized without acknowledgement of course, passed off as Corbyn's own originality of thought. I'm sure Heller is delighted - he did add on his blog 'open to others on application'.
    The other point remains that this dates back to 2011 and was out of date then (he talks of job losses on his blog - we have record numbers in work now).
    Which Presidential candidate got laughed out of town for plagiarizing a British (Blair??) politician's speech???
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rkoqglq9dU

    It was really rather blatant, well worth watching.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    ydoethur said:

    or will they see the SNP as a bunch of sore losers using an arcane procedure to try and massage their wounded egos (the way the voters of Oldham East and Saddleworth, on what to be candid was probably a more serious matter, did when put to the test five years ago by, ironically, the Liberal Democrats).

    Is that how the Oldham voters saw the Lib Dems? On the contrary, I would argue that their increase in their vote in that byelection was a spectacular result in a parliament otherwise full of maulings for them.
  • RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Eagle

    "Speaking to my Manchester focus group of 30 something professionals"

    Is that professionals or pros?

    They say the legal profession is the world's second oldest profession.

    Having spent fifteen years working in the legal profession I can say it shares similarities to the world's oldest profession
    It's expensive, but there are cheaper options available if you accept a lower caliber?
    You can never stamp it out?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,531
    DavidL said:

    FPT
    Interesting judgment in the Carmichael case. https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=eb9eeea6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

    I think he will be seriously disappointed.

    For those not familiar with it the case was resolved on the Scottish test of relevancy. This means that if you assume that everything the petitioners has said is true, can they win the case?

    They have decided that the conduct complained of could fall within s106 of the 1983 Act. They now have to hear evidence as to whether it did in fact amount to a misrepresentation as a candidate or whether it was a misrepresentation by the Secretary of State. Not many good options there for Carmichael although one wins and one loses.

    They then have to decide if the false statement was made for "the purpose of affecting the return of any candidate at the election”?

    Again, not great but probably ought to have been Carmichael's biggest hope. As the attack was really directed at Sturgeon was it a statement that was designed to affect the outcome of the election in Carmichael's seat?

    The Court have addressed this in the first instance by concluding that a statement that "I didn't leak it" is a statement that goes to the standing of the candidate in the election he is standing in. That will be the most worrying part of the decision for Carmichael since it does not seem to be in dispute that he told a lie. It is also a very broad proposition which might make a number of elected politicians twitch. If every, eh, misstatement, can be brought back to your own election in this way the distinction that was previously thought to exist between public and election statements, at least during the election period, may not exist.

    It is very difficult to see a positive way forward from here for Carmichael. He might be able to appeal this decision but I seem to recall that appeals under the 1983 Act are quite problematic. It seems that a proof is more likely and he really didn't want that.

    Edit. I apologise for repeating it but if I was a betting man I would say that we have a bye election on the way.

    They shjould be needing a black cap for the judge as well.
  • RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Eagle

    "Speaking to my Manchester focus group of 30 something professionals"

    Is that professionals or pros?

    They say the legal profession is the world's second oldest profession.

    Having spent fifteen years working in the legal profession I can say it shares similarities to the world's oldest profession
    It's expensive, but there are cheaper options available if you accept a lower caliber?
    We screw you with your pants on.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    edited September 2015

    Mr. Eagles, is that meant to be reassuring, or frightening? :p

    Reassuring.

    No one would be able to criticise my fashion choices were I PM.

    I have an awesome sense of fashion

    History would have primacy in the National Curriculum.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,834
    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    or will they see the SNP as a bunch of sore losers using an arcane procedure to try and massage their wounded egos (the way the voters of Oldham East and Saddleworth, on what to be candid was probably a more serious matter, did when put to the test five years ago by, ironically, the Liberal Democrats).

    Is that how the Oldham voters saw the Lib Dems? On the contrary, I would argue that their increase in their vote in that byelection was a spectacular result in a parliament otherwise full of maulings for them.
    Their vote went up by 0.3% on a low turnout (down 3000 in raw numbers) - the Labour vote went up over 10%. I'd say that was a fairly clear message and it wasn't a polite one.
  • Mr. Eagles, never too late for you to learn some.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Eagle

    "Speaking to my Manchester focus group of 30 something professionals"

    Is that professionals or pros?

    They say the legal profession is the world's second oldest profession.

    Having spent fifteen years working in the legal profession I can say it shares similarities to the world's oldest profession
    It's expensive, but there are cheaper options available if you accept a lower caliber?
    We screw you with your pants on.
    Why would I give you my pants? :D
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    MikeL said:

    We often hear accusations of BBC bias on here.

    Has anyone commented on the fact that the BBC's guest for the McDonnell speech was John McTernan and their guest for the Corbyn speech was Lance Price - both of whom were 100% critical of McDonnell / Corbyn, said they were only talking to the converted, said they were offering nothing to the wider public and in summary said Labour had no hope at all with this approach.

    I don't personally accuse the BBC of bias but those who do accuse it of being anti Conservative should note the above.

    Not clear about what your point is, if any?
    Lefty people talking about other lefty people.
    A typical day at the BiasedBBC
  • Mr. Eagles, never too late for you to learn some.

    I have an A in A level history from when A Levels were hard.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,531
    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    or will they see the SNP as a bunch of sore losers using an arcane procedure to try and massage their wounded egos (the way the voters of Oldham East and Saddleworth, on what to be candid was probably a more serious matter, did when put to the test five years ago by, ironically, the Liberal Democrats).

    Is that how the Oldham voters saw the Lib Dems? On the contrary, I would argue that their increase in their vote in that byelection was a spectacular result in a parliament otherwise full of maulings for them.
    Just reinforces the well known facts that the Libdems have no principles, will do anything to hang on. Carmichael deserves to be drummed out.
  • I doubt it will be plagiarism that does for Jezza.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Iain Dale suggested the fact that this speech was written 4 years ago may well be a "Westminster bubble" story! I suspect he may be right.

    24 years ago.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,834

    Mr. Eagles, is that meant to be reassuring, or frightening? :p

    Reassuring.

    No one would be able to criticise my fashion choices were I PM.

    I have an awesome sense of fashion

    History would have primacy in the National Curriculum.
    The TSE for PM campaign starts here!
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited September 2015
    ydoethur said:

    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    or will they see the SNP as a bunch of sore losers using an arcane procedure to try and massage their wounded egos (the way the voters of Oldham East and Saddleworth, on what to be candid was probably a more serious matter, did when put to the test five years ago by, ironically, the Liberal Democrats).

    Is that how the Oldham voters saw the Lib Dems? On the contrary, I would argue that their increase in their vote in that byelection was a spectacular result in a parliament otherwise full of maulings for them.
    Their vote went up by 0.3% on a low turnout (down 3000 in raw numbers) - the Labour vote went up over 10%. I'd say that was a fairly clear message and it wasn't a polite one.
    Again though, their vote going up by 0.3% is still strong when compared to their double-digit drops in almost every other byelection (and indeed was MUCH better than their result in Oldham this year).
  • Mr. Eagles, I don't have GCSEs in History or Classical Civ. I educated myself in adulthood.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    alex. said:

    Iain Dale suggested the fact that this speech was written 4 years ago may well be a "Westminster bubble" story! I suspect he may be right.

    24 years ago.
    Quite right. The real story is why did Kinnock not use it back then! :D
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,988
    edited September 2015
    I can't believe the BBC didn't lead on the plagiarism story.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Since the passage had been published, should it not have been credited? After all, he quoted Keir Hardie and gave him the credit!
  • RobD said:

    alex. said:

    Iain Dale suggested the fact that this speech was written 4 years ago may well be a "Westminster bubble" story! I suspect he may be right.

    24 years ago.
    Quite right. The real story is why did Kinnock not use it back then! :D
    That is correct if as suggested these words were sent ad nauseum to each leader dating back to Foot. It helps explain why they are so outdated.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    perdix said:

    Roger said:

    MBE FPT

    I have a few Muslim friends in England though plenty in Egypt Lebanon Turkey and throughout the Middle East where I have worked probably over a hundred times. For the most part I find them more intelligent and considered than the people here. Certainly more politically aware which is why it's no surprise that Corbyn's speech was run live in Iran and elsewhere in the region. Who here would even know the name of the Egyptian leader let alone the leader of the opposition?

    If we continue to see them all as ragheads then we're making a very big mistake. In my experience they have the sort of intelligence that comes with very old civilizations and it's very rare to find the sweeping political generalizations that you get in this country and on here all the time.

    Hezbollah are popular in Lebanon because they care for the schooling and social work in the areas they control. Likewise Hamas in Gaza. They are not considered corrupt or evil nor do their populations live in fear of them. I'm so tired of the prejudice here knowing it to be the complete opposite of the reality. Even the Lebaneses Christians accept the reason's for Hezbollah's popularity and their lack of corruption.

    Hezbollah and Hamas buying political support, funded by Iran.

    Actually I think roger is right. The Islamists garner support for a variety of reasons but not least of these are that in many Muslim countries the only places for poor folk to get an education (such as it is) or fed when they are indigent are at the Madrassas and Mosques. The secularised leaders in places like Iraq, Egypt or Pakistan spend their money on palaces, limosines and an army aimed at its own people. The failure of the elites to look after their own people combined with the fall of the communists has pushed the people into the arms of the Islamists.

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Roger said:

    I can't believe the BBC didn't lead on the plagiarism story.

    Ignoring the tongue in cheek, it's not a news story really, but it is a "ridicule" story that will likely damage him on some level if the tabloids find an amusing way to use it.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Mr. Eagles, I don't have GCSEs in History or Classical Civ. I educated myself in adulthood.

    Even Gene Pitney could score from the penalty spot in front of that open goal.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    BTW on Trident - isn't Corbyn's line that we lived in a "changed world" today as justification for his position on Trident renewal, rather easily undermined by the fact that was a unilateralist when we didn't live in a "changed world"?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited September 2015

    I doubt it will be plagiarism that does for Jezza.

    It will be wanting to have his cake and eat it. Brushing Trident in under the carpet on the one hand but saying to his faithful that he is still opposed to it if in power.

    His excuse for not supporting Trident seems wrong anyway - he claims it will take up 25% of defence budget, but that is plain wrong. He is stupid or a liar.
    Of course we do not know the total size of a Corbyn defence budget as yet.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    malcolmg said:

    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    or will they see the SNP as a bunch of sore losers using an arcane procedure to try and massage their wounded egos (the way the voters of Oldham East and Saddleworth, on what to be candid was probably a more serious matter, did when put to the test five years ago by, ironically, the Liberal Democrats).

    Is that how the Oldham voters saw the Lib Dems? On the contrary, I would argue that their increase in their vote in that byelection was a spectacular result in a parliament otherwise full of maulings for them.
    Just reinforces the well known facts that the Libdems have no principles, will do anything to hang on. Carmichael deserves to be drummed out.
    He may have denied leaking the memo, but does anybody doubt that the contents of the memo were essentially true. The SNP would much rather have a Conservative government in Westminster than a Labour one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,834
    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    or will they see the SNP as a bunch of sore losers using an arcane procedure to try and massage their wounded egos (the way the voters of Oldham East and Saddleworth, on what to be candid was probably a more serious matter, did when put to the test five years ago by, ironically, the Liberal Democrats).

    Is that how the Oldham voters saw the Lib Dems? On the contrary, I would argue that their increase in their vote in that byelection was a spectacular result in a parliament otherwise full of maulings for them.
    Their vote went up by 0.3% on a low turnout (down 3000 in raw numbers) - the Labour vote went up over 10%. I'd say that was a fairly clear message and it wasn't a polite one.
    Again though, their vote going up by 0.3% is still strong when compared to their double-digit drops in almost every other byelection (and indeed was MUCH better than their result in Oldham this year).
    That's an arguable point. However, in a case where the previous MP had been essentially convicted of libel, and at a time when despite the tuition fees debacle the reality of Liberal Democrat work in the coalition had yet to really bite (the Leicester South by-election saw just a 4.4% drop in their numbers on similar turnout figures to Oldham) I would say the relative and absolute increase in the Labour vote, on a lower turnout, plus the massive drop in the Conservative vote (which surely went to the Liberal Democrats for purely tactical reasons) all add up to a very resounding 'eff off.'

    My key point is that such a result in Orkney and Shetland would be an entirely avoidable embarrassment for the SNP, whatever the actual numbers involved. If the still fairly substantial Labour and Conservative vote was squeezed to give Nicola Sturgeon a bloody nose for bringing the case (yes I know she didn't officially bring it but she could well be blamed for it) I think the Liberal Democrats could hang on even though nationally the SNP are clearly still surging.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    I'm wondering if the prospect of Corbyn is going to be so frightening to Conservative voters that you start to see Con -> UKIP tactical voting in the North of England, and Con -> LibDem tactical voting in the three or four seats which are 1. Lab, 2. LibDem...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421

    I doubt it will be plagiarism that does for Jezza.

    JICWLT2020
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421
    rcs1000 said:

    1. Lab, 2. LibDem...

    Like Sheffield Central... oh ! Wait ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Central_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm wondering if the prospect of Corbyn is going to be so frightening to Conservative voters that you start to see Con -> UKIP tactical voting in the North of England, and Con -> LibDem tactical voting in the three or four seats which are 1. Lab, 2. LibDem...

    Hard to see Conservatives voting tactically for anyone. It hasn't happened often. And as long as they are in a majority situation, it is hard to justify defecting on tactical winnability grounds.
  • GeoffM said:

    Mr. Eagles, I don't have GCSEs in History or Classical Civ. I educated myself in adulthood.

    Even Gene Pitney could score from the penalty spot in front of that open goal.
    So could Diana Ross
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421
    Hmm Lib Dems weren't even 2nd in Brent Central...

    Where are these LB-LD seats ?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    Interesting judgment in the Carmichael case. https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=eb9eeea6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

    For those not familiar with it the case was resolved on the Scottish test of relevancy. This means that if you assume that everything the petitioners has said is true, can they win the case?

    They have decided that the conduct complained of could fall within s106 of the 1983 Act. They ........................

    It is very difficult to see a positive way forward from here for Carmichael. He might be able to appeal this decision but I seem to recall that appeals under the 1983 Act are quite problematic. It seems that a proof is more likely and he really didn't want that.

    Edit. I apologise for repeating it but if I was a betting man I would say that we have a bye election on the way.

    Carmichael's actions were certainly intended to be material to the outcome in the GE and his seat I'd say. Where I thought the action may fall down was that Nicola Sturgeon was not standing as a candidate in Orkney and Shetland... but the court seems to have considered a wider viewpoint than that.
    Its not looking good for him, though I think the Lib Dems can hold the seat at a by-election personally.
    "I think the Lib Dems can hold the seat at a by-election"
    Not now. The LDs would now be fighting on the back of a dishonourable act, which will be shunned by the local voters.
    Two words: Chris Huhne

    And that was a lot more serious than denying you leaked something (which you did in fact leak).
    Huhne had a much stronger local party than is in place in Orkney. Also the anti-LD vote was split between the opposition Lab party and the in Govt party of the Conservatives.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,988
    alex

    "Ignoring the tongue in cheek, it's not a news story really, but it is a "ridicule" story that will likely damage him on some level if the tabloids find an amusing way to use it."

    Someone's just let Diane Abbott into a lunchtime meeting in her pyjamas. No tabloid could think of anything more ridiculous surely?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421
    Aha - found one, Cardiff Central.
  • (Times) Rachel Sylvester says, 'labour are trapped in a burning building'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited September 2015
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    Interesting judgment in the Carmichael case. https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=eb9eeea6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

    I think he willay.


    Its not looking good for him, though I think the Lib Dems can hold the seat at a by-election personally.
    Actually, I would say it is a narrower viewpoint rather than a wider one. It is all about him and his personal standing. Very modern in its way but a large barn door has been opened.

    I seem to remember Labour held their seat after a decision like this quite easily but the Scottish Lib Dems are in a bad place.
    Indeed. Sigh, another SNP Gain on the way.

    (Times) Rachel Sylvester says, 'labour are trapped in a burning building'

    It's ok, sensitivity to fire is just a part of the old politics.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,531
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    or will they see the SNP as a bunch of sore losers using an arcane procedure to try and massage their wounded egos (the way the voters of Oldham East and Saddleworth, on what to be candid was probably a more serious matter, did when put to the test five years ago by, ironically, the Liberal Democrats).

    Is that how the Oldham voters saw the Lib Dems? On the contrary, I would argue that their increase in their vote in that byelection was a spectacular result in a parliament otherwise full of maulings for them.
    Just reinforces the well known facts that the Libdems have no principles, will do anything to hang on. Carmichael deserves to be drummed out.
    He may have denied leaking the memo, but does anybody doubt that the contents of the memo were essentially true. The SNP would much rather have a Conservative government in Westminster than a Labour one.
    Everybody involved has categorically stated that it was untrue in public. The person who wrote it even noted the same. Whether they would prefer a Tory government was not discussed publicly even if that is what they prefer. It was false and Carmichael had his lackey publish it and then lied about it. Nothing can redeem him.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Hmm Lib Dems weren't even 2nd in Brent Central...

    Where are these LB-LD seats ?

    Birmingham Yardley.

    That said Jess Phillips is becoming my favourite Labour MP.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    FPT
    malcolmg said:

    You missed the bit that she is not involved in any way in the investigation ......... LOL

    LOL indeed Malcy
    Dair said:



    What it definitely is not, is fraud on the part of Thomson.

    Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulhutcheon: Wonder if @michellethomson's Friday surgery is still on
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @kevverage: Hands up - when SNP said they represented a new kind of politics I didn't believe them.

    I didn't realise they meant an even grubbier kind.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    edited September 2015
    This is going to turn into the four Yorkshiremen sketch isn't it?

    @georgeeaton: Corbyn supporter Rebecca Long-Bailey floats idea of working class-only shortlists. #lab15
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Marxists are openly campaigning at the Labour conference for thousands of radical Left-wingers to infiltrate the party and ‘send Blairite MPs packing’.

    A hard-Left group has circulated a newsletter demanding action to ‘transform’ the party through a programme of ‘intimidation, constitutional changes and reselection’.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3252863/Now-hard-Left-begins-purge-Blairites-Group-uses-letter-demand-action-transform-party-programme-intimidation.html#ixzz3n9akvtmj
  • On Carmichael, presumably the court will be aware that it could create some very broad precedent. If it does, the election campaign process is going to be very different in the future and will affect all candidates in all parties. You'd have thought it would want to avoid that.
    This is UK law the court is deciding on, isn't it?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558

    Roger said:

    Eagle

    "Speaking to my Manchester focus group of 30 something professionals"

    Is that professionals or pros?

    They say the legal profession is the world's second oldest profession.

    Having spent fifteen years working in the legal profession I can say it shares similarities to the world's oldest profession
    The world's oldest profession is probably the more honourable of the two.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,988
    Tim used to find something absurdly trivial and make a saga out of it but he was seriously funny. When others try it as on this thread they just sound like rather nervous Tories
  • This is going to turn into the four Yorkshiremen isn't it?

    @georgeeaton: Corbyn supporter Rebecca Long-Bailey floats idea of working class-only shortlists. #lab15

    Oh-so-easy to define!! Sometimes you would hope that they would think before they spoke. But no.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558

    On Carmichael, presumably the court will be aware that it could create some very broad precedent. If it does, the election campaign process is going to be very different in the future and will affect all candidates in all parties. You'd have thought it would want to avoid that.
    This is UK law the court is deciding on, isn't it?

    A Scottish judgement is not binding on a Court in England and Wales, or in Northern Ireland. But, it can be persuasive.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Good speech from Corbyn.

    Corbyn-Mcdonnell not done badly so far.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143
    SMukesh said:

    Good speech from Corbyn.

    Corbyn-Mcdonnell not done badly so far.

    And they've got the fantastic 2015 ground game to build on, right?

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Lolz

    Jim Waterson
    Richard Heller last month suggsted Corbyn-era politicians should inject gaffes into campaigns http://t.co/O2JqIAJSMQ http://t.co/1xWeOZbKwe
  • Roger.. If you think tim was seriously funny then I think you may have a serious problem..you may have to cut back on something.. the man was a liar, obsessive and a total jerk
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421

    On Carmichael, presumably the court will be aware that it could create some very broad precedent. If it does, the election campaign process is going to be very different in the future and will affect all candidates in all parties. You'd have thought it would want to avoid that.
    This is UK law the court is deciding on, isn't it?

    Scottish law.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,531
    Scott_P said:

    FPT

    malcolmg said:

    You missed the bit that she is not involved in any way in the investigation ......... LOL

    LOL indeed Malcy
    Dair said:



    What it definitely is not, is fraud on the part of Thomson.

    Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...
    Her being an honest politician and giving up the whip does not change the fact that she is not named or involved at this stage in the investigation. I know a dullard like you will not understand someone doing the right thing but such is life. We will see in time , I presume you will be as diligent in posting when she is found to have done nothing wrong.
  • This is going to turn into the four Yorkshiremen isn't it?

    @georgeeaton: Corbyn supporter Rebecca Long-Bailey floats idea of working class-only shortlists. #lab15

    Oh-so-easy to define!! Sometimes you would hope that they would think before they spoke. But no.
    I work. I'm a classicist.

    I should be on the short list.

    Plus I'm from ooop North too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    This is going to turn into the four Yorkshiremen sketch isn't it?

    @georgeeaton: Corbyn supporter Rebecca Long-Bailey floats idea of working class-only shortlists. #lab15

    In fairness we get a bit of that type of grandstanding already from certain circles, so whynot go full Four Yorkshiremen?

    Personally I presume I'm middle class, despite poverty growing up, as apparently it's only the middle classes who are uncertain about where they fit, as upper and working classes are certain of where they belong and their differences, even if behaviour wise there is not as much difference as they think.
  • perdix said:

    Roger said:

    MBE FPT

    I have a few Muslim friends in England though plenty in Egypt Lebanon Turkey and throughout the Middle East where I have worked probably over a hundred times. For the most part I find them more intelligent and considered than the people here. Certainly more politically aware which is why it's no surprise that Corbyn's speech was run live in Iran and elsewhere in the region. Who here would even know the name of the Egyptian leader let alone the leader of the opposition?

    If we continue to see them all as ragheads then we're making a very big mistake. In my experience they have the sort of intelligence that comes with very old civilizations and it's very rare to find the sweeping political generalizations that you get in this country and on here all the time.

    Hezbollah are popular in Lebanon because they care for the schooling and social work in the areas they control. Likewise Hamas in Gaza. They are not considered corrupt or evil nor do their populations live in fear of them. I'm so tired of the prejudice here knowing it to be the complete opposite of the reality. Even the Lebaneses Christians accept the reason's for Hezbollah's popularity and their lack of corruption.

    Hezbollah and Hamas buying political support, funded by Iran.

    Actually I think roger is right. The Islamists garner support for a variety of reasons but not least of these are that in many Muslim countries the only places for poor folk to get an education (such as it is) or fed when they are indigent are at the Madrassas and Mosques. The secularised leaders in places like Iraq, Egypt or Pakistan spend their money on palaces, limosines and an army aimed at its own people. The failure of the elites to look after their own people combined with the fall of the communists has pushed the people into the arms of the Islamists.

    I don't disagree with Roger's contention about Hamas and Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood being perceived differently (both "purer" and "more socially useful") in their own countries to the rather filtered view (primarily concerned with human rights and international relations) that we get of them over here.

    I just don't agree that makes them "fluffy". If anything it makes them more dangerous.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    SMukesh said:

    Good speech from Corbyn.

    Corbyn-Mcdonnell not done badly so far.

    Which bits did you particularly like, those from an obscure blog written in 2011, or another section?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Laura Kuenssberg doesn't hold back on finding the negatives in Corbyn does she? ;)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,531

    On Carmichael, presumably the court will be aware that it could create some very broad precedent. If it does, the election campaign process is going to be very different in the future and will affect all candidates in all parties. You'd have thought it would want to avoid that.
    This is UK law the court is deciding on, isn't it?

    So prosecuting lying cheating politicians would be against English Law.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421
    Laura Kuennsberg, the latest Labour hating Murdoch hack.

    CallEineNow! ‏@KrustyAllslopp 11m11 minutes ago

    .@bbclaurak I could be mistaken, but seems to me you really are much more suited to the gutter journalism of the Sun.... #LeadersSpeech
  • Was it Hamas who threw some fellow Muslims off roof tops..because they were the wrong type of Muslims..nice chaps
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    This is going to turn into the four Yorkshiremen isn't it?

    @georgeeaton: Corbyn supporter Rebecca Long-Bailey floats idea of working class-only shortlists. #lab15

    Oh-so-easy to define!! Sometimes you would hope that they would think before they spoke. But no.
    Isn't a major requirement to define yourself as "working class" in the modern Labour party to either not work, or be descended from people who don't work?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,834
    malcolmg said:

    On Carmichael, presumably the court will be aware that it could create some very broad precedent. If it does, the election campaign process is going to be very different in the future and will affect all candidates in all parties. You'd have thought it would want to avoid that.
    This is UK law the court is deciding on, isn't it?

    So prosecuting lying cheating politicians would be against English Law.
    Malcolm, isn't 'lying cheating politicians' something of a tautology? Indeed, isn't that the whole problem?
  • We've had Mike Bassett England Manager; now we have Jeremy Corbyn Labour Leader.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,834

    We've had Mike Bassett England Manager; now we have Jeremy Corbyn Labour Leader.

    And Peter Moores as cricket coach. Twice.
  • alex. said:

    Laura Kuenssberg doesn't hold back on finding the negatives in Corbyn does she? ;)

    Unfortunately for Jezza and Labour the entire media narrative is all about how useless he is. The problem is that this is fair reporting.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    she is not named or involved at this stage in the investigation.

    Thomson, who said she always acted within the law, has withdrawn from her role as the SNP’s Business, Innovation and Skills spokesperson in the House of Commons and as party whip while the investigation takes place.
    An investigation she is not involved in...

    Put down the Bucky, Malc, you've had enough for one night.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,531
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    On Carmichael, presumably the court will be aware that it could create some very broad precedent. If it does, the election campaign process is going to be very different in the future and will affect all candidates in all parties. You'd have thought it would want to avoid that.
    This is UK law the court is deciding on, isn't it?

    So prosecuting lying cheating politicians would be against English Law.
    Malcolm, isn't 'lying cheating politicians' something of a tautology? Indeed, isn't that the whole problem?
    Unfortunately , yes, but they already seem to be above the law on that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,059
    Pink Floyd Star Roger Waters ' "I think Jeremy Corbyn is a huge breath of fresh air following in the august footsteps of Aneurin Bevan, Michael Foot and Tony Benn and the rest of the Left wing of British politics.” Asked about Mr Corbyn’s chances of winning a general election, Waters said: “I don’t live in England so I don’t know whether he’s electable.” '
    http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/theatre/pink-floyd-star-roger-waters-billy-elliot-team-can-bring-the-wall-to-west-end-a2957826.html
  • malcolmg said:

    On Carmichael, presumably the court will be aware that it could create some very broad precedent. If it does, the election campaign process is going to be very different in the future and will affect all candidates in all parties. You'd have thought it would want to avoid that.
    This is UK law the court is deciding on, isn't it?

    So prosecuting lying cheating politicians would be against English Law.

    Lying, cheating politicians are not confined to one party. My guess is that even SNP MPs have been known to tell the odd fib.

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    she is not named or involved at this stage in the investigation.

    Thomson, who said she always acted within the law, has withdrawn from her role as the SNP’s Business, Innovation and Skills spokesperson in the House of Commons and as party whip while the investigation takes place.
    An investigation she is not involved in...

    Put down the Bucky, Malc, you've had enough for one night.

    No knowledge of this at all, but if she's not being investigated how does she ever clear her name to allow her to reclaim the whip?

    On a technical point - if you resign the whip, do you still sit as an (SNP) MP? Or are you officially an independent?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MPs lost since the GE :

    SNP 1, LDs 0


    @AlanRoden: SNP spokesman says MP Michelle Thomson is no longer a member of the party.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,531
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    she is not named or involved at this stage in the investigation.

    Thomson, who said she always acted within the law, has withdrawn from her role as the SNP’s Business, Innovation and Skills spokesperson in the House of Commons and as party whip while the investigation takes place.
    An investigation she is not involved in...

    Put down the Bucky, Malc, you've had enough for one night.

    Always the sign of a loser, saddo if I was drinking it would be classier than that, I am not like you and your lowlife friends. I can afford real stuff. Now F Off and don't ever post to me again you cretin.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    alex. said:

    No knowledge of this at all, but if she's not being investigated how does she ever clear her name to allow her to reclaim the whip?

    On a technical point - if you resign the whip, do you still sit as an (SNP) MP? Or are you officially an independent?

    She is being investigated. Malcolmg hasn't got the new line from Zoomer central yet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,834
    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    she is not named or involved at this stage in the investigation.

    Thomson, who said she always acted within the law, has withdrawn from her role as the SNP’s Business, Innovation and Skills spokesperson in the House of Commons and as party whip while the investigation takes place.
    An investigation she is not involved in...

    Put down the Bucky, Malc, you've had enough for one night.
    No knowledge of this at all, but if she's not being investigated how does she ever clear her name to allow her to reclaim the whip?

    On a technical point - if you resign the whip, do you still sit as an (SNP) MP? Or are you officially an independent?

    Independent.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:

    @AlanRoden: SNP spokesman says MP Michelle Thomson is no longer a member of the party.

    Has Nicola named a new Biz spokesperson yet, or are the SNP belatedly vetting their MPs to see if any more are in trouble?
  • RobD said:

    corking - this is old!


    Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick
    Richard Heller says he published speech on website in 2011 as none of previous five Labour leaders would use it, dating back to Neil Kinnock

    How did Niel Kinnock reply when asked to use the speech? "No thanks, we're allllllrighttttt!!"


    Oh, that's my coat!!
    Now it's "We're aaaaaall LEFT!" :lol:
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    If she isn't a member of the SNP anymore...

    She should resign and fight her seat like Carswell and Reckless.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421
    TGOHF said:

    MPs lost since the GE :

    SNP 1, LDs 0


    @AlanRoden: SNP spokesman says MP Michelle Thomson is no longer a member of the party.

    Houston we have a by election.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,834
    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    @AlanRoden: SNP spokesman says MP Michelle Thomson is no longer a member of the party.

    Has Nicola named a new Biz spokesperson yet, or are the SNP belatedly vetting their MPs to see if any more are in trouble?
    Surely that would be Angus Robertson's job, not Sturgeon's? Or do the SNP run their Westminster cadre from Holyrood?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,059
    Boris Johnson's mother turns out to be a Leftie

    “I find it quite extraordinary that I should have married a Tory and got four Tory children. I’ve never voted Tory in my life.” So little does she recognise her family’s Right-wing views that she’s almost a Corbynista. “Part of me is absolutely thrilled, because it’s back to the politics that I remember when I was young I recognise what he’s on about.”

    What if Corbyn and Boris were ever political rivals? “I think they’d understand each other quite well. They’re both quite independent. There would be a lot of areas in which they didn’t agree, and it would be quite fierce.”
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/a2957921.html
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    ydoethur said:

    Surely that would be Angus Robertson's job, not Sturgeon's? Or do the SNP run their Westminster cadre from Holyrood?

    That's why Nicola flew down from Edinburgh on the first day on the new Parliament, to remind them who's in charge.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @camusson: .@MichelleThomson 's spokeswoman says if she's been kicked out of SNP it's news to Michelle
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @camusson: SNP press office gone to ground amid confusion over whether MP @MichelleThomson is still an SNP member. Phones ringing out. @AngusRobertson
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    she is not named or involved at this stage in the investigation.

    Thomson, who said she always acted within the law, has withdrawn from her role as the SNP’s Business, Innovation and Skills spokesperson in the House of Commons and as party whip while the investigation takes place.
    An investigation she is not involved in...

    Put down the Bucky, Malc, you've had enough for one night.
    Always the sign of a loser, saddo if I was drinking it would be classier than that, I am not like you and your lowlife friends. I can afford real stuff. Now F Off and don't ever post to me again you cretin.Malcoholic, getting upset that his idols have clay feet, now who could have seen that coming?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Dan... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11899851/Jeremy-Corbyn-doesnt-want-to-sit-in-No-10.-He-wants-to-protest-outside-it.html
    If you’re Jeremy Corbyn, you do something that is breathtaking in both its audacity and its simplicity. You just pretend the voters don’t exist. You simply ignore them. And you hope that if you do, perhaps they’ll just go away, and never bother you or your party again.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited September 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @kevverage: Hands up - when SNP said they represented a new kind of politics I didn't believe them.

    I didn't realise they meant an even grubbier kind.

    :D:D:D:D:D
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Was it Hamas who threw some fellow Muslims off roof tops..because they were the wrong type of Muslims..nice chaps

    Hamas has done summary executions for suspected spies and also for being supporter of the other PLO faction. Also noted for persecuting Christians.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    TGOHF said:

    If she isn't a member of the SNP anymore...

    She should resign and fight her seat like Carswell and Reckless.

    That would be the honourable thing to do.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @kevverage: When is an SNP MP not an SNP MP?
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