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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Volkswagen – the Lance Armstrong of the global auto-mobile industry

Although at the moment this is not directly a political story there are likely to be huge political implications. These will be on top of the financial disturbance to the markets that has started to happen. The dramatic drop in the VW share price already is going to filter through to many areas.

Read the full story here

JEO

Of course it is a powerful lobby in the EU. The German manufacturers get preferential protection like the French farmers do.

If the wrongdoing is common place in the industry one impact could be that the automakers have less credibility to speak out on the European referendum.

Kinga

Anyone want to buy a Range Rover?

madasafish

Feridand Piech resigned as Chairman of VAG in 25th April 2015..
The PR said "
Earlier this month Piech - who along with the Porsche family controls 51% of the VW Group, the second largest car maker in the world - was quoted as saying he had "distanced" himself from CEO Winterkorn, bringing into public a row over the levels of profits within the VW Group and its failure to make inroads in to the American market."
www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-group-chairman-ferdinand-piech-resigns

Perhaps a hint that this was known about by then

"6 May 2015 CARB, in coordination with the EPA, conducts follow-up testing of these vehicles both in the laboratory and during normal road operation to confirm the efficacy of VW’s recall. Testing shows the recall has had only a limited benefit. None of the potential technical issues suggested by VW can explain the higher test results consistently confirmed during further testing by CARB".
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-winterkorn-replacement-lined

SO VW would have known by then the game was up in the USA and they would be found out.

I suspect Piech was the driver behind this all - it would explain why he was forced to resign then and why VAG kept stalling - they knew they were stuffed.

Any company would surely take counsel's advice and that surely would have been to come clean..

Or did the Board not know? In which case it is extraordinary.. I suspect they found out in April and Piech HAD to go..

I am guessing here so none of this can be taken as an accusation.

Moses_

Vorsprung du feckwit Rodders !

Ok not the same company but....

Carolus_Rex

Just bought a sodding diesel too. Bummer.(Not a VW though!)

felix

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

tlg86

Moses_ said:

Vorsprung du feckwit Rodders !

Ok not the same company but....

No, it is the same company!

Tissue_Price

FPT as on topic:

JosiasJessop said:

If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.

But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).

SimonStClare

"much tighter clean air standards in the United States compared within the EU."

Not sure if this is true or not, - however, the US is full of gas guzzlers which they seem to have little problem with environmentally as long as the manufacturers are honest about their true emissions.

MikeSmithson

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

MaxPB

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

I highly doubt that Mercedes and BMW stood by while VW/Audi stole away market share. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole German auto industry gets dragged into this mess.

Moses_

tlg86 said:

Moses_ said:

Vorsprung du feckwit Rodders !

Ok not the same company but....

No, it is the same company!

Oh .... Well there you go then. Interesting one of VWs adverts a few years ago was along the lines of

They called their car a lemon and they called it ugly

Sunil_Prasannan

So Dave's now accused of sticking his proverbial inside a Volkswagen????

Dair

JosiasJessop said:

Good points. But I'd be amazed if VW didn't already have hundreds of people working on exactly those issues. I'd expect it to be mainly a software issue (*) rather than large-scale hardware change, especially as 'Defeat' could alter the engine to make it pass. Although I might well be wrong on that, particularly on the side-effects of the change.

(*) I't s not often I say 'mainly a software issue' dismissively!

Out of interest, how would Defeat be different in theory to how a VTEC engine works?

JosiasJessop

Tissue_Price said:

FPT as on topic:

JosiasJessop said:

If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.

But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).

And my response:

What sort of 'regulatory response' do you mean? There's absolutely no way they'll reduce the emissions targets just because one (that we know of) manufacturer has been blatantly cheating.

All we'll probably get are cars with reduced performance.

Moses_

Tissue_Price said:

FPT as on topic:

JosiasJessop said:

If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.

But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).

That could be interesting . All those who end up in a higher tax band as a result may not be happy little VW campers. The litigation is going to be horrific and expensive unless VW pay the difference for life of the vehicle ownership in which case it will just be expensive.

Tissue_Price

JosiasJessop said:

Tissue_Price said:

FPT as on topic:

JosiasJessop said:

If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.

But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).

And my response:

What sort of 'regulatory response' do you mean? There's absolutely no way they'll reduce the emissions targets just because one (that we know of) manufacturer has been blatantly cheating.

All we'll probably get are cars with reduced performance.

Sorry, not well expressed: what I meant was a regulatory response in terms of fines etc. (as opposed to expecting the market to do much of the heavy lifting in terms of punishing VW).

Alanbrooke

JEO said:

Of course it is a powerful lobby in the EU. The German manufacturers get preferential protection like the French farmers do.

If the wrongdoing is common place in the industry one impact could be that the automakers have less credibility to speak out on the European referendum.

and british bankers.

who has gone to jail here ? One bloke, yet billions have been earned corruptly.

JosiasJessop

Dair said:

JosiasJessop said:

Good points. But I'd be amazed if VW didn't already have hundreds of people working on exactly those issues. I'd expect it to be mainly a software issue (*) rather than large-scale hardware change, especially as 'Defeat' could alter the engine to make it pass. Although I might well be wrong on that, particularly on the side-effects of the change.

(*) I't s not often I say 'mainly a software issue' dismissively!

Out of interest, how would Defeat be different in theory to how a VTEC engine works?

Answering that's out of my league. But if I was to hazard a guess, it would be that VTEC engines are designed (or should be) to be within the emissions standards in whatever mode they're in.

Perhaps.

Carolus_Rex

Sunil_Prasannan said:

So Dave's now accused of sticking his proverbial inside a Volkswagen????

Hopefully not while the engine was running.

Richard_Nabavi

An interesting Bloomberg article here on some of the political ramifications:

http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2015/9/22/merkels-climate-crusading-risks-being-blemished-by-vw-scandal

And an unfortunate piece of timing by Ms Merkel:

“I believe those that produce the least emissions in autos will also be those who have the greatest success worldwide,” Merkel said in the speech [the day before the story broke]

isam

Shrewdies have got 12 yr old petrol VWs

MaxPB

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

JosiasJessop

MaxPB said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

I highly doubt that Mercedes and BMW stood by while VW/Audi stole away market share. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole German auto industry gets dragged into this mess.

But the manufacturers have different technical gizmoa. Patents play a large part on this: Defeat may have been needed by VW to get around problems other manufacturers solve using patented tech. Hence a VTEC diesel may pass the emissions anyway, because they're a different engine.

Per'aps.

Sunil_Prasannan

Richard_Nabavi said:

An interesting Bloomberg article here on some of the political ramifications:

http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2015/9/22/merkels-climate-crusading-risks-being-blemished-by-vw-scandal

And an unfortunate piece of timing by Ms Merkel:

“I believe those that produce the least emissions in autos will also be those who have the greatest success worldwide,” Merkel said in the speech [the day before the story broke]

Bruno Ganz should play Merkel in her biopic

madasafish

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Err not true on motorways.. which is where diesels shine... And most company cars exist on motorways..

MikeSmithson

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

madasafish

MaxPB said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

I highly doubt that Mercedes and BMW stood by while VW/Audi stole away market share. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole German auto industry gets dragged into this mess.

BMW's X5 Diesel passed the tests which VAG failed.. (In California).

AnotherNigel

So what about expected residuals and the effect upon lease rates for the new Audi A4? Can VW Group afford a failed A4 launch?

TheScreamingEagles

SeanT said:

Truly bizarre story.

Lance Armstrong isn't a very good analogy. He was one man in a very competitive sport who had to cheat to win.

VW is a huge global corporation that was already very successful and profitable, yet they STILL cheated, and on an epic scale, thus damaging the brand and possibly endangering the entire company. They didn't have to do it to succeed, but they did it anyway?

A special kind of mega stupid. The only rational explanation I can see is that lots of car companies are doing this and VW just got caught first - which means this is more like News of the World and phone hacking.

So Dave's going to have to resign. Again.

Plato_Says

Welcome aboard, Mr Nigel.

AnotherNigel said:

So what about expected residuals and the effect upon lease rates for the new Audi A4? Can VW Group afford a failed A4 launch?

Ghedebrav

Is there any sense of how broadly across the industry this kind of deception goes, or is it just VW (and/or their group brands, Seat & so on)?

It's not a massive stretch to think that some exec or chief engineer moved from VW to GM/Toyota/Whoever and took their seductively dodgy practices with them.

NickPalmer

Tissue_Price said:

FPT as on topic:

JosiasJessop said:

If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.

But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).

That's sort of right - I think most people would be pleased that the government is controlling emissions in general so we don't get Beijing-like pollution, but they don't care about their own vehicles. So I suspect take-up of the recall may be limited unless it's needed for the warranty, but that doesn't mean that the US (or Europe) should tolerate cheating.

OldKingCole

SimonStClare said:

"much tighter clean air standards in the United States compared within the EU."

Not sure if this is true or not, - however, the US is full of gas guzzlers which they seem to have little problem with environmentally as long as the manufacturers are honest about their true emissions.

We don’t, at this moment, know how widespread the use of this software is. The only thing we know is that VW use, or at one time used, it.
Presumably, the same software was available to the rest of Group, which, according to wikipedia includes " Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques”
I’m not aware of Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, or Porsche diesels, but IIRC the other marques have and perhaps it applies to the trucks as well.
Anyone know? I’m certain someone does!

MaxPB

madasafish said:

MaxPB said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

I highly doubt that Mercedes and BMW stood by while VW/Audi stole away market share. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole German auto industry gets dragged into this mess.

BMW's X5 Diesel passed the tests which VAG failed.. (In California).

Well that's good news for them in that case. I would like to see the results from the 1-series and B-class which are the A3 competitor.

watford30

Ghedebrav said:

Is there any sense of how broadly across the industry this kind of deception goes, or is it just VW (and/or their group brands, Seat & so on)?

It's not a massive stretch to think that some exec or chief engineer moved from VW to GM/Toyota/Whoever and took their seductively dodgy practices with them.

Or that an engineer brought the idea to VW from another manufacturer.

MaxPB

Its also taken piggate off the agenda as well. Dave is, as always, a lucky general.

JosiasJessop

Ghedebrav said:

Is there any sense of how broadly across the industry this kind of deception goes, or is it just VW (and/or their group brands, Seat & so on)?

It's not a massive stretch to think that some exec or chief engineer moved from VW to GM/Toyota/Whoever and took their seductively dodgy practices with them.

My guess (and it is just that) is that this particular dodge will be VW only. But it is such a competitive marketplace and emissions and efficiency are such important marketing differentiators, that other cheats might be widespread, although perhaps less obvious.

AIUI this came about because people were not getting the performance the manufacturers were stating, and the authorities looked into why, after ignoring the manufacturers plea of "our engines are so sh*t that after they're a few months old they become cr@p."

It'll certainly be a problem for anyone who uses the relevant VW engines, and that might be many smaller marques.

watford30

TheScreamingEagles said:

SeanT said:

Truly bizarre story.

Lance Armstrong isn't a very good analogy. He was one man in a very competitive sport who had to cheat to win.

VW is a huge global corporation that was already very successful and profitable, yet they STILL cheated, and on an epic scale, thus damaging the brand and possibly endangering the entire company. They didn't have to do it to succeed, but they did it anyway?

A special kind of mega stupid. The only rational explanation I can see is that lots of car companies are doing this and VW just got caught first - which means this is more like News of the World and phone hacking.

So Dave's going to have to resign. Again.

Oh I'm sure that one of the usual fruit loop suspects will suggest that Cameron being seen in an Audi, is proof that he's in on the conspiracy and must go.

philiph

OldKingCole said:

SimonStClare said:

"much tighter clean air standards in the United States compared within the EU."

Not sure if this is true or not, - however, the US is full of gas guzzlers which they seem to have little problem with environmentally as long as the manufacturers are honest about their true emissions.

We don’t, at this moment, know how widespread the use of this software is. The only thing we know is that VW use, or at one time used, it.
Presumably, the same software was available to the rest of Group, which, according to wikipedia includes " Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques”
I’m not aware of Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, or Porsche diesels, but IIRC the other marques have and perhaps it applies to the trucks as well.
Anyone know? I’m certain someone does!

Porsche have diesels.

Ghedebrav

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

TGOHF

SeanT said:

Truly bizarre story.

Lance Armstrong isn't a very good analogy. He was one man in a very competitive sport who had to cheat to win.

VW is a huge global corporation that was already very successful and profitable, yet they STILL cheated, and on an epic scale, thus damaging the brand and possibly endangering the entire company. They didn't have to do it to succeed, but they did it anyway?

A special kind of mega stupid. The only rational explanation I can see is that lots of car companies are doing this and VW just got caught first - which means this is more like News of the World and phone hacking.

But in cycling - they were all at it.

Speedy

I actually did a detailed report about the state of the global car industry some time ago, I rated VW along with Toyota as the leading behemoths of their industry, VW achieved modern dominance because of it's wide range of cars and it's big improvements of diesel engine technology.
I probably have to revalue my report.

Basically what happened apparently was that like all big companies, they become problematic and dysfunctional due to their size, and their management becomes poor and misleading, effectively lying to the owners of the company and to the consumers of their products and hoping they won't get discovered before they move to another company.

In short, a company that is run by people who have no long term incentive to keep it healthy will tend to ditch it for a few bonuses and golden parachutes, like Carly Fiorina.

Scrapheap_as_was

OGH pitches for Top Gear slot.

MaxPB

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

There is a new nanocrystal olivine battery in development at Sony which is destined for their phones, but if used in cars it would extend the range 2-3x, at least that's what Sony think it will do for phones.

Ghedebrav

MaxPB said:

Its also taken piggate off the agenda as well. Dave is, as always, a lucky general.

Hmmm... I think he'll be oinked at for a while yet.

JosiasJessop

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

(snip)

I agree, but the energy density in hydrocarbons is very high; i.e. you can fit a lot of energy in a small space. Plus it is relatively easy to handle compared to (say) hydrogen.

TheScreamingEagles

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

Its also taken piggate off the agenda as well. Dave is, as always, a lucky general.

I think "Swineshead Revisited" (not mine, someone else's, but brilliant, enough "gates" already) was heading off the front page very swiftly, no matter what else happened. A bizarre story without any evidence derived from a sole anonymous witness whose veracity is questioned by the writer herself?

Pfft.

I might as well say I heard that Yvette Cooper licks donkeys' nipples. Then print it. And when questioned say "Well it might not be true."

Some chap said the pig story was like something out of a Tom Knox.

Sunil_Prasannan

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

Its also taken piggate off the agenda as well. Dave is, as always, a lucky general.

I think "Swineshead Revisited" (not mine, someone else's, but brilliant, enough "gates" already) was heading off the front page very swiftly, no matter what else happened. A bizarre story without any evidence derived from a sole anonymous witness whose veracity is questioned by the writer herself?

Pfft.

I might as well say I heard that Yvette Cooper licks donkeys' nipples. Then print it. And when questioned say "Well it might not be true."

"Pork and Ride"

Ghedebrav

TGOHF said:

SeanT said:

Truly bizarre story.

Lance Armstrong isn't a very good analogy. He was one man in a very competitive sport who had to cheat to win.

VW is a huge global corporation that was already very successful and profitable, yet they STILL cheated, and on an epic scale, thus damaging the brand and possibly endangering the entire company. They didn't have to do it to succeed, but they did it anyway?

A special kind of mega stupid. The only rational explanation I can see is that lots of car companies are doing this and VW just got caught first - which means this is more like News of the World and phone hacking.

But in cycling - they were all at it.

And he wouldn't have won much if his team weren't also all cheating (though most didn't need too much persuasion, according to accounts).

MTimT

OldKingCole said:

SimonStClare said:

"much tighter clean air standards in the United States compared within the EU."

Not sure if this is true or not, - however, the US is full of gas guzzlers which they seem to have little problem with environmentally as long as the manufacturers are honest about their true emissions.

We don’t, at this moment, know how widespread the use of this software is. The only thing we know is that VW use, or at one time used, it.
Presumably, the same software was available to the rest of Group, which, according to wikipedia includes " Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques”
I’m not aware of Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, or Porsche diesels, but IIRC the other marques have and perhaps it applies to the trucks as well.
Anyone know? I’m certain someone does!

The main gas guzzlers in the US are the trucks, which were for a long while exempted from mpg requirements.

Just a small NB. The US gallon is 0.8 of an Imperial gallon, so you do have to multiply US mpg figures by 1.25 to make them equivalent to British mpg.

Even so, US mpg figures are below European ones on average. We do a lot more driving here, so we like are cars bigger and more comfortable, which generally means heavier and more powerful.

Richard_Nabavi

MTimT said:

We do a lot more driving here, so we like are cars bigger and more comfortable, which generally means heavier and more powerful.

Nah, you just like big things. (And American cars are awful to drive).

JosiasJessop

SeanT said:

TGOHF said:

SeanT said:

Truly bizarre story.

Lance Armstrong isn't a very good analogy. He was one man in a very competitive sport who had to cheat to win.

VW is a huge global corporation that was already very successful and profitable, yet they STILL cheated, and on an epic scale, thus damaging the brand and possibly endangering the entire company. They didn't have to do it to succeed, but they did it anyway?

A special kind of mega stupid. The only rational explanation I can see is that lots of car companies are doing this and VW just got caught first - which means this is more like News of the World and phone hacking.

But in cycling - they were all at it.

Indeed. Which supports my thesis that VW felt they had to do this to stay competitive? The way cyclists have to dope, and tabloids had to phonehack.

Alternatively, VW just went corporately crazy. It's not unknown.

Other manufacturers might have design philosophies for diesel engines that mean the cheat is not required. And those philosophies are probably well protected by patents.

AnotherNigel

Plato_Says said:

Welcome aboard, Mr Nigel.

AnotherNigel said:

So what about expected residuals and the effect upon lease rates for the new Audi A4? Can VW Group afford a failed A4 launch?

Thank you Ms Plato.

I made the odd Disqus comment a few years ago but do not usually have the time to post anything. I think the area to watch here is the finance arrangements and not the fines.

flightpath01

The purpose of the deception was to lower the NO2 emissions. Will this affect to any significant degree the fuel consumption? Possibly not. That is a different metric where companies have to pass a certain average for all the cars they produce.
Diesel cars became popular when the great crime was CO2 - now they realise that diesels give out NO2.
Whatever the emissions - every time you slow down and go over a speed hump and move away you put up your emissions - at the very areas where these emissions are not wanted - and ruin your suspension as well.

VW are stupid - but they are in good company

MaxPB

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11881954/Volkswagen-emissions-scandal-Which-other-cars-fail-to-meet-pollution-safety-limits.html

Names VW, Audi, BMW, Opel and Citroen as major culprits. 4 Germans and a French.

Moses_

Presently working in Germany and on the top bar of the PolBet site is a advert for none other than a Volkswagon.

Tissue_Price

Anyone? Not that I've felt this way on PB, of course. Well, at least not for 20 minutes or so.

https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/646305223728828416

Luckyguy1983

Tissue_Price said:

Anyone? Not that I've felt this way on PB, of course. Well, at least not for 20 minutes or so.

https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/646305223728828416

Being British.

MTimT

Richard_Nabavi said:

MTimT said:

We do a lot more driving here, so we like are cars bigger and more comfortable, which generally means heavier and more powerful.

Nah, you just like big things. (And American cars are awful to drive).

Most people I know drive Japanese or European cars or SUVs. However, they tend to be the larger models. Once it comes to trucks, it's mostly American.

Do you doubt that Americans drive more miles than Brits?

"the average American driver logs 13,476 miles each year" http://cars.lovetoknow.com/about-cars/how-many-miles-do-americans-drive-per-year

"The average mileage for four-wheeled vehicles stood at 7,900 miles (12,700km) in 2013, official figures showed" http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-28546589

Sunil_Prasannan

Richard_Nabavi said:

MTimT said:

We do a lot more driving here, so we like are cars bigger and more comfortable, which generally means heavier and more powerful.

Nah, you just like big things. (And American cars are awful to drive).

Americans are just... big

Dair

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

flightpath01

NickPalmer said:

Tissue_Price said:

FPT as on topic:

JosiasJessop said:

If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.

But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).

That's sort of right - I think most people would be pleased that the government is controlling emissions in general so we don't get Beijing-like pollution, but they don't care about their own vehicles. So I suspect take-up of the recall may be limited unless it's needed for the warranty, but that doesn't mean that the US (or Europe) should tolerate cheating.

And other manufacturers should not tolerate VW cheating to steal a march on them. These are diesels which are encouraged to reduce CO2. A bench test is never going to be the same as a real world test - it is just an agreed standard to meet.

Luckyguy1983

SeanT said:

flightpath01 said:

The purpose of the deception was to lower the NO2 emissions. Will this affect to any significant degree the fuel consumption? Possibly not. That is a different metric where companies have to pass a certain average for all the cars they produce.
Diesel cars became popular when the great crime was CO2 - now they realise that diesels give out NO2.
Whatever the emissions - every time you slow down and go over a speed hump and move away you put up your emissions - at the very areas where these emissions are not wanted - and ruin your suspension as well.

VW are stupid - but they are in good company

Consumers won't notice the nuances. In future, car buyers will just think "Hmm, VW, aren't they the car company that lies a lot?"

Given that VW's absolute USPs were *Teutonic integrity* and *reliable engineering* this could be catastrophic. My guess is that the company will survive, albeit diminished.

The best hope for them is that others are also caught, spreading the muck.

Who'd have though there'd be a positive in us not having any British car firms any more?

MaxPB

Dair said:

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

Manufacture of hydrogen requires serious investment and a whole new way of energy generation. Unless you mean hydrocarbon fuel cells, which are not exactly less polluting than standard cars.

No, advancement in battery and capacitor technology is where we need to look. The best part is that private industry will do it without subsidy because phone users want better battery life.

TheScreamingEagles

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

MTimT

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

MTimT said:

We do a lot more driving here, so we like are cars bigger and more comfortable, which generally means heavier and more powerful.

Nah, you just like big things. (And American cars are awful to drive).

Americans are just... big

Given the rates of obesity I see in the UK these days, that seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/23/business/economy/economix-23OECDobesity/economix-23OECDobesity-custom1.jpg

Moses_

Corbynites Are On Witch-Hunt, Warns Labour MP
Simon Danczuk has warned Corbynites have a hit list of moderate MPs they are looking to purge from the party, starting with him.

Sky news

http://news.sky.com/story/1557011/corbynites-are-on-witch-hunt-warns-labour-mp

watford30

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11881954/Volkswagen-emissions-scandal-Which-other-cars-fail-to-meet-pollution-safety-limits.html

Names VW, Audi, BMW, Opel and Citroen as major culprits. 4 Germans and a French.

Jesus. Basically the entire German car industry.

And half the French car industry. Hilarious.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

"harm-joy"

JosiasJessop

Dair said:

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

I think you're correct on that. And it may also prove a part of the solution to renewable energy load balancing: excess spikes in generation could be transferred to creating hydrogen and storing it.

As an aside, I was surprised to see two electric car charging points in the car park at Durness, in the very northwest of Scotland. I wonder how many electric cars they see, as Inverness is a three-hour drive away ...

TheScreamingEagles

For Morris Dancer and other F1 fans, I assume this is going to throw a Spaniard into the works for Volkswagen's plan to buy Red Bull?

TGOHF

Dair said:

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

lead acid was overtaken by NiMh then Lithium - which are moving forward with sulphurs and other additives - it's hard and slow but they keep getting better.

Fuel cell have their own problems too - not just the small matter of finding safe H2 delivery systems - the power density isn't great so you could go 2000 miles on a tank but it would take you 2 minutes to go from 0-60.

Sunil_Prasannan

Moses_ said:

Corbynites Are On Witch-Hunt, Warns Labour MP
Simon Danczuk has warned Corbynites have a hit list of moderate MPs they are looking to purge from the party, starting with him.

Sky news

http://news.sky.com/story/1557011/corbynites-are-on-witch-hunt-warns-labour-mp

Hi Moses, how about a DUJCA?

(as a follow-up to the DUEMA)

Sunil_Prasannan

MTimT said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

MTimT said:

We do a lot more driving here, so we like are cars bigger and more comfortable, which generally means heavier and more powerful.

Nah, you just like big things. (And American cars are awful to drive).

Americans are just... big

Given the rates of obesity I see in the UK these days, that seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/23/business/economy/economix-23OECDobesity/economix-23OECDobesity-custom1.jpg

It was a joke, dammit!

Tissue_Price

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

Now now, TSE. We should be magnanimous and make clear that honest capitalist refugees fleeing the corrupt corporatist catastrophe will be welcome here.

TheScreamingEagles

As a lover of German vehicles this is so disappointing.

Sunil_Prasannan

watford30 said:

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11881954/Volkswagen-emissions-scandal-Which-other-cars-fail-to-meet-pollution-safety-limits.html

Names VW, Audi, BMW, Opel and Citroen as major culprits. 4 Germans and a French.

Jesus. Basically the entire German car industry.

And half the French car industry. Hilarious.

One-third?

I count Peugeot and Renault as the other two.

JosiasJessop

MaxPB said:

Dair said:

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

Manufacture of hydrogen requires serious investment and a whole new way of energy generation. Unless you mean hydrocarbon fuel cells, which are not exactly less polluting than standard cars.

No, advancement in battery and capacitor technology is where we need to look. The best part is that private industry will do it without subsidy because phone users want better battery life.

Progress in battery technology is also exceptionally slow afaik, and uses batsh*t insane amounts of rare earths and other scarce materials.

TheScreamingEagles

24 hours after piggate this is well dodgy

RSPCA and other animal welfare charities could lose their powers to prosecute

http://ind.pn/1iKyqoC

MaxPB

TheScreamingEagles said:

For Morris Dancer and other F1 fans, I assume this is going to throw a Spaniard into the works for Volkswagen's plan to buy Red Bull?

I highly doubt that VW will be able to get involved with it now, not with tens of billions I'm fines and court settlements on the cards.

flightpath01

What are the odds now on VW continuing on and buying F1 team Red Bull?

Edit - ah beaten to it...

MTimT

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

maloallojoy?

Moses_

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

clusterfucken?

watford30

TheScreamingEagles said:

24 hours after piggate this is well dodgy

RSPCA and other animal welfare charities could lose their powers to prosecute

http://ind.pn/1iKyqoC

Good. There are many reported cases of the RSPCA abusing its powers in this respect.

TheScreamingEagles

Tissue_Price said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

Now now, TSE. We should be magnanimous and make clear that honest capitalist refugees fleeing the corrupt corporatist catastrophe will be welcome here.

I love the Germans and Germany. German cars are one of my luxuries in life.

MTimT

Sunil_Prasannan said:

MTimT said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

MTimT said:

We do a lot more driving here, so we like are cars bigger and more comfortable, which generally means heavier and more powerful.

Nah, you just like big things. (And American cars are awful to drive).

Americans are just... big

Given the rates of obesity I see in the UK these days, that seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/23/business/economy/economix-23OECDobesity/economix-23OECDobesity-custom1.jpg

It was a joke, dammit!

Yep, saw the smiley

Sean_F

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

Its also taken piggate off the agenda as well. Dave is, as always, a lucky general.

I think "Swineshead Revisited" (not mine, someone else's, but brilliant, enough "gates" already) was heading off the front page very swiftly, no matter what else happened. A bizarre story without any evidence derived from a sole anonymous witness whose veracity is questioned by the writer herself?

Pfft.

I might as well say I heard that Yvette Cooper licks donkeys' nipples. Then print it. And when questioned say "Well it might not be true."

Et In Porcadia Ego.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

Tissue_Price said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

Now now, TSE. We should be magnanimous and make clear that honest capitalist refugees fleeing the corrupt corporatist catastrophe will be welcome here.

I love the Germans and Germany. German cars are one of my luxuries in life.

TSE = Eddy VIII

MaxPB

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

Dair said:

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

Manufacture of hydrogen requires serious investment and a whole new way of energy generation. Unless you mean hydrocarbon fuel cells, which are not exactly less polluting than standard cars.

No, advancement in battery and capacitor technology is where we need to look. The best part is that private industry will do it without subsidy because phone users want better battery life.

Progress in battery technology is also exceptionally slow afaik, and uses batsh*t insane amounts of rare earths and other scarce materials.

True, but I don't see enthusiasm for molten salt reactors and ultra high temperature atomisation of water for the hydrogen economy being high enough to sustain a hydrogen fuel cycle. It would also require massive government subsidies and investment guarantees as well. Companies like Sony and Samsung are willing to invest their own money into battery tech, I would let them do it.

TheScreamingEagles

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

For Morris Dancer and other F1 fans, I assume this is going to throw a Spaniard into the works for Volkswagen's plan to buy Red Bull?

I highly doubt that VW will be able to get involved with it now, not with tens of billions I'm fines and court settlements on the cards.

That's what I thought. Bye bye Red Bull

Plato_Says

Made my week.

watford30 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

24 hours after piggate this is well dodgy

RSPCA and other animal welfare charities could lose their powers to prosecute

http://ind.pn/1iKyqoC

Good. There are many reported cases of the RSPCA abusing its powers in this respect.

TGOHF

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

VW seem to have invented the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"

Dair

TGOHF said:

Dair said:

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

lead acid was overtaken by NiMh then Lithium - which are moving forward with sulphurs and other additives - it's hard and slow but they keep getting better.

Fuel cell have their own problems too - not just the small matter of finding safe H2 delivery systems - the power density isn't great so you could go 2000 miles on a tank but it would take you 2 minutes to go from 0-60.

Fuel Cell vehicles do not burn Hydrogen to provide work. They burn Hydrogen to create electricity and the electricity drives the vehicle.

The performance is not an issue.

MTimT

Moses_ said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

clusterfucken?

Brill! But shouldn't it be clusterficken?

JosiasJessop

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

Dair said:

Ghedebrav said:

MikeSmithson said:

MaxPB said:

MikeSmithson said:

felix said:

Diesel cars are the norm on the continent and are much more fuel efficient than petrol. The VW fiddle has not changed that. The biggest negative here could well be for the reputation of the German car industry. It remains to be seen if others will be drawn into the net.

They are nothing like as fuel efficient as Toyota hybrids.

Nissan Leaf.

Problem about a Nissan Leaf is the range.

And battery capacity decline over time.

I love electric cars from an engineering efficiency POV. There seems something objectively strange about still being in a position where filling a tank with liquid hydrocarbons extracted from beneath the earth, and then sort of blowing it up, is most effective way to propel our vehicles.

That said, the motor vehicle (buses excepted) as mass urban transit solution is also highly inefficient.

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

Manufacture of hydrogen requires serious investment and a whole new way of energy generation. Unless you mean hydrocarbon fuel cells, which are not exactly less polluting than standard cars.

No, advancement in battery and capacitor technology is where we need to look. The best part is that private industry will do it without subsidy because phone users want better battery life.

Progress in battery technology is also exceptionally slow afaik, and uses batsh*t insane amounts of rare earths and other scarce materials.

True, but I don't see enthusiasm for molten salt reactors and ultra high temperature atomisation of water for the hydrogen economy being high enough to sustain a hydrogen fuel cycle. It would also require massive government subsidies and investment guarantees as well. Companies like Sony and Samsung are willing to invest their own money into battery tech, I would let them do it.

Yep, but I'm not sure that battery technology is scalable to the necessary degree either, given their requirements in (admittedly often misnamed) rare earths.

But it's not just a question of energy density in the battery; there's also the charging time problem as well. ISTR that the new fast-charging tech that is coming in is incompatible with the highest densities batteries.

And they'll always be lugging a few hundred kilos of batteries around, which have a limited lifetime.

TheScreamingEagles

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Tissue_Price said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

What's the German word for schadenfreude?

Now now, TSE. We should be magnanimous and make clear that honest capitalist refugees fleeing the corrupt corporatist catastrophe will be welcome here.

I love the Germans and Germany. German cars are one of my luxuries in life.

TSE = Eddy VIII

I prefer to see myself as Ed IV, or maybe Edward Longshanks or Cœur de Lion but would prefer to be George VI.

peter_from_putney

There was a ten year period, approximately 10-20 years ago when for no obvious reasons Diesel powered cars generally, across a wide range of manufacturers, started to make huge inroads in terms of both performance and emission levels compared with their petrol-powered equivalents in the market place.
This resulted in a remarkable transformation, whereby previously considered dirty, smelly, slow, environmentally-unfriendly Diesel models caught up with and in some cases have overtaken the sales of petrol-fuelled cars.
With hindsight, worth at least tuppence a bucket as we all know, this shift in consumer preference does seem to have been too good to be true. Call me an old cynic, but if VW were playing games, I'd be astonished if they were alone in that regard.

JosiasJessop

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

For Morris Dancer and other F1 fans, I assume this is going to throw a Spaniard into the works for Volkswagen's plan to buy Red Bull?

I highly doubt that VW will be able to get involved with it now, not with tens of billions I'm fines and court settlements on the cards.

That's what I thought. Bye bye Red Bull

If they do go:

I'd say good riddance to the management, but shed a tear for the employees. They have some great people.

TGOHF

Dair said:

TGOHF said:

Dair said:

Electric cars are a technological dead end.

Every penny invested by government is a complete waste of money.

Fuel Cell technology exists. It works exactly the way we use vehicles today. It is where any support should be going.

lead acid was overtaken by NiMh then Lithium - which are moving forward with sulphurs and other additives - it's hard and slow but they keep getting better.

Fuel cell have their own problems too - not just the small matter of finding safe H2 delivery systems - the power density isn't great so you could go 2000 miles on a tank but it would take you 2 minutes to go from 0-60.

Fuel Cell vehicles do not burn Hydrogen to provide work. They burn Hydrogen to create electricity and the electricity drives the vehicle.

The performance is not an issue.

So you need chemical batteries on board. Whats your point ?