Blackburn 63..FYI Iam not a conservative.. they are way too far left for my tastes..that does not stop me stating that the piece was libellous and printed to inflict personal harm in a malicious manner..the piece was based on absolutely no provable evidence whatsoever, merely hearsay..it is unlikely the source will volunteer to be named.. even the authors admit that..They need to be taken to court and at the very least shamed ..
For heavens sake man, do you really think the Prime Minister is going to court complaining that somebody said he put his nob in a pig?
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
The US are squeezing a foreign competitor out of their domestic car market.
It's also pour encourager les autres. I've seen this sort of things in device drivers (especially graphics drivers), but I'm astonished that VW has the kind of culture that would let this sort of thing happen.
I used to work for the government's computer security arm, and the automotive and safety industry made us look like sloppy, hand waving cowboys.
I wouldn't be surprised if the practice extends beyond VW though. LIBOR II in the offing?
One of our guys says VW could be looking at bankruptcy or at least a state bailout.
I wouldn't touch any vehicle shares with a bargepole right now - the whole industry is about to get shellacked.
driverless cars or the emissions scandal?
Emissions - it's going to be like PPI on steroids I think.
And the odds of VW being the only perpetrators?
Very low indeed. It's like phone hacking, or bank mis-selling. It'll be an industry wide issue.
Good thing UK industry doesn't make diesel cars! I think the van industry might be in trouble though.
I do find it somewhat ironic though that US authorities are so tough on relatively small diesel cars when so much of the country owns gas-guzzling multi-ton pick-ups and the like.
One of our guys says VW could be looking at bankruptcy or at least a state bailout.
I wouldn't touch any vehicle shares with a bargepole right now - the whole industry is about to get shellacked.
driverless cars or the emissions scandal?
Emissions - it's going to be like PPI on steroids I think.
And the odds of VW being the only perpetrators?
Very low indeed. It's like phone hacking, or bank mis-selling. It'll be an industry wide issue.
You're probably right, but - and this is my own prejudice coming through - I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it was confined to Germany. VW-Audi, Mercedes and BMW are at the performance end of the market and I'd have thought they have more to gain than, say, Vauxhall and my 1.3 litre Ecoflex Corsa.
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
US authorities really don't like being lead up the garden path !
No, the US authorites like to plunder massive financial chunks out of large foreign companies every now and again because they can. I for one am just glad they're doing it to the Germans this time instead of us.
Its a per vehicle fine of $37,500. Maths doesn't discriminate.
That's the maximum figure, not a fixed figure. In practice likely to be a lot less (but still a hefty sum, of course).
The US are no strangers to protectionism (The GOP particularly like it for certain industries) - so the fine can be set relatively high as VW will still want access to the US market in the future.
One of our guys says VW could be looking at bankruptcy or at least a state bailout.
I wouldn't touch any vehicle shares with a bargepole right now - the whole industry is about to get shellacked.
driverless cars or the emissions scandal?
Emissions - it's going to be like PPI on steroids I think.
And the odds of VW being the only perpetrators?
They won't be, although they might be the most egregious.
The history of essentially faked MPG figures does not bode well for other companies.
As an example, GM's ignition-key problem, which was safety critical, is still working its way through the courts cost them $900 million in fines alone, yet alone compensation for the scores of deaths attributable to the problem. Yet there might just have been a few engineers at fault for that scandal, which was not a deliberate attempt to cheat consumers.
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
The US are squeezing a foreign competitor out of their domestic car market.
Does anyone know what the purpose of the VW vehicle recall is? Are they going to modify the vehicles to meet the emisssions standards but at the cost of fuel efficiency and performance?
Does anyone know what the purpose of the VW vehicle recall is? Are they going to modify the vehicles to meet the emisssions standards but at the cost of fuel efficiency and performance?
I was wondering this. If they remove the cheat device will some vehicles fail the emissions tests at MOT, or did the cheat not cover that particular scenario?
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
Does anyone know what the purpose of the VW vehicle recall is? Are they going to modify the vehicles to meet the emisssions standards but at the cost of fuel efficiency and performance?
One of our guys says VW could be looking at bankruptcy or at least a state bailout.
I wouldn't touch any vehicle shares with a bargepole right now - the whole industry is about to get shellacked.
driverless cars or the emissions scandal?
Emissions - it's going to be like PPI on steroids I think.
And the odds of VW being the only perpetrators?
Very low indeed. It's like phone hacking, or bank mis-selling. It'll be an industry wide issue.
You're probably right, but - and this is my own prejudice coming through - I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it was confined to Germany. VW-Audi, Mercedes and BMW are at the performance end of the market and I'd have thought they have more to gain than, say, Vauxhall and my 1.3 litre Ecoflex Corsa.
Land Rover Jaguar? Big machines with pretty figures to justify the purchase to the greener customers?
Does anyone know what the purpose of the VW vehicle recall is? Are they going to modify the vehicles to meet the emisssions standards but at the cost of fuel efficiency and performance?
If you're car's out of warranty it would be tempting to tell them to get stuffed!
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
US authorities really don't like being lead up the garden path !
No, the US authorites like to plunder massive financial chunks out of large foreign companies every now and again because they can. I for one am just glad they're doing it to the Germans this time instead of us.
Is it a reaction to the EU treatment of Google / Microsoft etc?
"[He predicts] the next crisis could be caused by terrorists hijacking banking IT systems. “They’re so vulnerable. Because banks were merging and acquiring like crazy, they glued systems together."
Some other choice quotes:
“It’s a fundamental misunderstanding that we’re too stupid to understand the problems of finance. A seven-year-old understands perverse incentives. Tell them: ‘Half the class doesn’t do their homework, half does and they all get the same grade; what will happen?’ That’s the bank.”
“The old mindset is intact: ‘If it’s legal, we’ll do it, and our well-paid lobbyists will ensure it’s legal’.
"If you don’t screw that German bank, your colleague opposite will — and you’ll be culled. Blaming people for acting on incentives is stupid.” Incentives that still exist. “All we’ve had are these cultural sensitivity courses: begging bankers on our knees: ‘even though you can screw us — will you please not screw us?’ We keep blaming individual bankers, when we need the system to change.”"
IMO, the best serialisation was Tracey Temple's diaries - they were hilarious every day. Just so much Ewwww. And her giddy delight recording each event. She sounded like a school girl who'd bagged the head boy.
@tnewtondunn: Posh bloke gets on horse shock. Day 2 of Ashcroft book in Mail is bit thin and chippier than Day 1. Smells even more like vengeful malice.
Wasn't it made into a fillum? www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz0nafsr0vw
And repeated only the other night. Could not bring myself to watch it other than a few clips. Terrible reminder of John Prescott and his self imposed downfall. Bearing in mind that people ranging from Prescott Ashdown Major Cook etc etc ... have clearly proven acts of stupidity at their door - and this when they were actually in office or MPs - then the dogs breakfast 'vengeful malice' being peddled by Ashcroft will not shake many MPs.
One of our guys says VW could be looking at bankruptcy or at least a state bailout.
I wouldn't touch any vehicle shares with a bargepole right now - the whole industry is about to get shellacked.
driverless cars or the emissions scandal?
Emissions - it's going to be like PPI on steroids I think.
And the odds of VW being the only perpetrators?
Very low indeed. It's like phone hacking, or bank mis-selling. It'll be an industry wide issue.
You're probably right, but - and this is my own prejudice coming through - I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it was confined to Germany. VW-Audi, Mercedes and BMW are at the performance end of the market and I'd have thought they have more to gain than, say, Vauxhall and my 1.3 litre Ecoflex Corsa.
Land Rover Jaguar? Big machines with pretty figures to justify the purchase to the greener customers?
Does anyone know what the purpose of the VW vehicle recall is? Are they going to modify the vehicles to meet the emisssions standards but at the cost of fuel efficiency and performance?
It will probably end up at a lot more than the half-million mentioned there - VW have already said 11 million vehicles could be affected, although I don't know if they'll all be recalled.
Perhaps rather than sue and keep the pig story at the forefront, someone from Cameron's team could faux defend the authors as having the right to print whatever they like and comment offhandly that Oakeshott at least takes a rather stunning picture - that'll cause an entirely separate furore to distract us all.
Good news for the mystery MP. The photo might be legal after all. Publish and be damned...
@Barristerblog: An old post. With a living pig, vaginal or anal sex is illegal but oral sex is legal. Anything goes with a dead pig. http://t.co/L23PlH7i5r
No, it's illegal.
As usual your links are filled with nonsense and factually untrue.
Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008
(7)An image falls within this subsection if it portrays, in an explicit and realistic way, any of the following—
(a)an act which threatens a person's life,
(b)an act which results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to a person's anus, breasts or genitals,
(c)an act which involves sexual interference with a human corpse, or
(d)a person performing an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal (whether dead or alive),
As you are quoting a 2008 Act ,it's irrelevant to what happened more than 30 years ago. And a moment's thought would have made you realise that.
What are you wittering about.
Scott_P wrote "Good news for the mystery MP. The photo might be legal after all. Publish and be damned..."
Clearly the photo is not legal and it does not matter when it was taken. Possession and/or publication of it is an offence.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
US authorities really don't like being lead up the garden path !
No, the US authorites like to plunder massive financial chunks out of large foreign companies every now and again because they can. I for one am just glad they're doing it to the Germans this time instead of us.
Is it a reaction to the EU treatment of Google / Microsoft etc?
The terrible treatment BP received shows it predates that.
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
US authorities really don't like being lead up the garden path !
No, the US authorites like to plunder massive financial chunks out of large foreign companies every now and again because they can. I for one am just glad they're doing it to the Germans this time instead of us.
Is it a reaction to the EU treatment of Google / Microsoft etc?
I shouldn't think so, I think it's simply for the $$.
Clearly the photo is not legal and it does not matter when it was taken. Possession and/or publication of it is an offence.
If the photo exists, which it almost certainly doesn't, there is no suggestion that it represents something covered by the Act which you yourself have quoted. You are massively over-excited by this nonsense.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
A legal firm in the US has already begun contacting buyers for a class action law suit.
One of our guys says VW could be looking at bankruptcy or at least a state bailout.
I wouldn't touch any vehicle shares with a bargepole right now - the whole industry is about to get shellacked.
driverless cars or the emissions scandal?
Emissions - it's going to be like PPI on steroids I think.
And the odds of VW being the only perpetrators?
Very low indeed. It's like phone hacking, or bank mis-selling. It'll be an industry wide issue.
Good thing UK industry doesn't make diesel cars! I think the van industry might be in trouble though.
I do find it somewhat ironic though that US authorities are so tough on relatively small diesel cars when so much of the country owns gas-guzzling multi-ton pick-ups and the like.
The U.S. are tough on non-US firms when they have an excuse to be so. Period.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
100% certain. And shareholder class actions. It's a commercial catastrophe on the scale of BP and Deepwater Horizon.
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
US authorities really don't like being lead up the garden path !
No, the US authorites like to plunder massive financial chunks out of large foreign companies every now and again because they can. I for one am just glad they're doing it to the Germans this time instead of us.
Is it a reaction to the EU treatment of Google / Microsoft etc?
The terrible treatment BP received shows it predates that.
The Yanks like turning a criminal into a victim.
But yet they decide who is a criminal and who isn't.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
Its a per vehicle fine of $37,500. Maths doesn't discriminate.
I'm genuinely amazed that VW have sold over 300,000 diesel vehicles in the US over their entire history in the market, let alone over the last X years (however long this software has been in use).
One of our guys says VW could be looking at bankruptcy or at least a state bailout.
I wouldn't touch any vehicle shares with a bargepole right now - the whole industry is about to get shellacked.
driverless cars or the emissions scandal?
Emissions - it's going to be like PPI on steroids I think.
And the odds of VW being the only perpetrators?
Very low indeed. It's like phone hacking, or bank mis-selling. It'll be an industry wide issue.
You're probably right, but - and this is my own prejudice coming through - I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it was confined to Germany. VW-Audi, Mercedes and BMW are at the performance end of the market and I'd have thought they have more to gain than, say, Vauxhall and my 1.3 litre Ecoflex Corsa.
Land Rover Jaguar? Big machines with pretty figures to justify the purchase to the greener customers?
But not big in terms of diesel.
Yes they are. Land Rovers especially are reliant on diesel. They have just brought out a new diesel engine which is vital for Jaguar. Jaguars latest car is a compact exec and needed for their volume. The point is the market in the USA where VW were trying to push and expand is a relatively small diesel market. l am not at all sure that owners are particularly bothered about emissions. The technology needed to manage engines just makes them expensive and unreliable.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
The thought of the traumatised claimants weeping into their hankercheifs because they didn't know they were releasing so much carbon into the air is quite an image.
Its a per vehicle fine of $37,500. Maths doesn't discriminate.
That's the maximum figure, not a fixed figure. In practice likely to be a lot less (but still a hefty sum, of course).
The US are no strangers to protectionism (The GOP particularly like it for certain industries) - so the fine can be set relatively high as VW will still want access to the US market in the future.
They're not supposed to be a big player in the US (unlike Merc or BMW), perhaps they will find it far better to let VW USA go bankrupt and just exit the market for a couple of years.
I wonder how many years profit of VW USA it would take to recoup $12bn.
How on Earth was PB victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
“If Cameron had lost, he’d have been smashed up by his own party,” Seldon told me in a forthcoming interview for the New Statesman. Ashcroft’s hope was that these allegations would come out when Cameron had none of the infrastructure of Downing Street or CCHQ to respond to the stories, while some on the right of the Conservative party, who have assisted with the story, hoped to bury Cameron’s rebrand of the Tory party along with him. But as for bringing down Cameron? Frankly, there is no chance of that.
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
The car companies all know the size of the fine for rigging emissions tests, yet they decided to break the law anyway. It amazes me how so many law and order conservatives suddenly start sympathising with the criminal when it is a large corporation.
How on Earth was PB victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
The Union Carbide Bhopal disaster caused the immediate deaths of 2,259 people. 558,125 injuries, including 38,478 temporary partial injuries and approximately 3,900 severely and permanently disabling injuries. Union Carbide paid $470million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
“If Cameron had lost, he’d have been smashed up by his own party,” Seldon told me in a forthcoming interview for the New Statesman. Ashcroft’s hope was that these allegations would come out when Cameron had none of the infrastructure of Downing Street or CCHQ to respond to the stories, while some on the right of the Conservative party, who have assisted with the story, hoped to bury Cameron’s rebrand of the Tory party along with him. But as for bringing down Cameron? Frankly, there is no chance of that.
'The hope wasn’t to bring down Cameron but to humilate him in retirement. Ashcroft was bruised by a failure to consult him about big decisions during the 2010 campaign and the offer of what he saw as a derisory role as a Foreign Office whip after the election. '
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
100% certain. And shareholder class actions. It's a commercial catastrophe on the scale of BP and Deepwater Horizon.
What about those effected by the fumes ? Could be everyone on the planet !
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
How on Earth was PB victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
PB is victimised every day! Have you heard what Guido says about us (sob).
How on Earth was PB victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
I think the cost to BP is more like $50bn, which is 15% of revenue.
The compensation setup has allowed any number of people and businesses to have fictional claims simply waved through iirc with no need to show damage.
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
The US are squeezing a foreign competitor out of their domestic car market.
lts a company which has broken US law ('allegedly'). lt apples to all companies. GM were heavily fined not long ago and s subject to continuing litigation. The level of fine has not been determined yet. VW build many cars in the USA. lt has plants in north south and central America. lts plant in Chattanooga Tennessee can build 150000 cars a year. BMW have a large plant in South Carolina.
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
How on Earth was PB victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
Part of the deal with the US government was that companies that had suffered from the spill could claim compensation. Many say the system was rather too free in deciding that companies had suffered and could claim. It's still not over.
I always compare the Deepwater Horizon incident with the American government's criminal and hideous behaviour of the Bhopal disaster, which caused many orders magnitude more suffering.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
While I wouldn't want to make predictions (yada yada), I would point out that Intel, AMD and nVidia all got done for "optimising for benchmarks."
Would anyone be surprised if it turned out all car makers had done similar?
“If Cameron had lost, he’d have been smashed up by his own party,” Seldon told me in a forthcoming interview for the New Statesman. Ashcroft’s hope was that these allegations would come out when Cameron had none of the infrastructure of Downing Street or CCHQ to respond to the stories, while some on the right of the Conservative party, who have assisted with the story, hoped to bury Cameron’s rebrand of the Tory party along with him. But as for bringing down Cameron? Frankly, there is no chance of that.
'The hope wasn’t to bring down Cameron but to humilate him in retirement. Ashcroft was bruised by a failure to consult him about big decisions during the 2010 campaign and the offer of what he saw as a derisory role as a Foreign Office whip after the election. '
Billionaire behaving like a four year old. Billionaire believing his own polls?
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
Yes, it was despicable. Huge publicity error on BP's part not send an American senior person to front their recovery operation rather than a British one as I see it, but wouldn't have made any material difference to the daylight robbery that took place.
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
Yes, it was despicable. Huge publicity error on BP's part not send an American senior person to front their recovery operation rather than a British one as I see it, but wouldn't have made any material difference to the daylight robbery that took place.
They did send an American: Bob Dudley, who went on to run BP.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
IANAE, but it looks as though they inserted into cars in the US at least a device ("defeat") that detected when the car was being tested for emissions and put the engine into a mode that reduced performance and decreased emissions. But as the car was not on the road, the decrease in performance would not have been detected.
Some sources indicate it was a pure software cheat, others say it was a device including hardware. It could easily be a software cheat that needed extra hardware sensors and wiring.
Removing the 'defeat device' might mean that the cars need to be altered in other ways so they meet the emissions standards, and that might mean a decrease in performance.
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
I'm no lawyer but shouldn't someone at BP have read the settlement agreement before signing it?
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
The size of fine the US are considering against VW seems rather disproportionate.
It's more than BP ended up having to pay for Deepwater Horizon.
For dodgy emissions on a type of vehicle which is less than 1% of the US market.
The US are squeezing a foreign competitor out of their domestic car market.
lts a company which has broken US law ('allegedly'). lt apples to all companies. GM were heavily fined not long ago and s subject to continuing litigation. The level of fine has not been determined yet. VW build many cars in the USA. lt has plants in north south and central America. lts plant in Chattanooga Tennessee can build 150000 cars a year. BMW have a large plant in South Carolina.
Try again.
The Americans are trying to squeeze a competitor out of their market and doing it not very intelligently.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
100% certain. And shareholder class actions. It's a commercial catastrophe on the scale of BP and Deepwater Horizon.
What about those effected by the fumes ? Could be everyone on the planet !
We know that diesel fumes in places such as London are worse than expected because diesel vehicles have not performed as well as the tests expected. This was previously blamed on the factor that as the engines aged so their performance dropped..... “Carmakers are trying to greenwash dirty diesel to hide the truth that compared to a petrol car a typical new diesel car on the road emits 10 times more nitrogen oxides. While carmakers claim modern diesels are clean they are pushing to delay and weaken the introduction of new pollution tests." http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/11/have-diesel-cars-been-unfairly-demonised-for-air-pollution
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
While I wouldn't want to make predictions (yada yada), I would point out that Intel, AMD and nVidia all got done for "optimising for benchmarks."
Would anyone be surprised if it turned out all car makers had done similar?
Agree about the chip benchmarking, but that might prove to be a minor issue compared to the problems that face VW and potentially others.
I wouldn't say any car manufacturer is clean on this or similar cheats, or that only diesels are problematic. They all need thoroughly retesting.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
While I wouldn't want to make predictions (yada yada), I would point out that Intel, AMD and nVidia all got done for "optimising for benchmarks."
Would anyone be surprised if it turned out all car makers had done similar?
I would guess that all the manafucturers have been doing it for decades. I recall an episode of Top Gear when Clarkson was driving an E Type and mocking the originally claimed for top speed.
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
Yes, it was despicable. Huge publicity error on BP's part not send an American senior person to front their recovery operation rather than a British one as I see it, but wouldn't have made any material difference to the daylight robbery that took place.
They did send an American: Bob Dudley, who went on to run BP.
No, the early guy was Tony something was it not? I seem to remember he was doing a bit of a 'we're not perfect guys' self-effacing Brit act and it going down like a bag of warm sick.
Ah. TBH, my local garage used to turn down the carbs on my Spitfire when it came to MOT time, so it'd pass!
I can imagine that everyone is at this stuff if VW are indulging. Like fiddling death figures in the NHS - all it takes is one bright spark and it gets copied all over the shop.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
IANAE, but it looks as though they inserted into cars in the US at least a device ("defeat") that detected when the car was being tested for emissions and put the engine into a mode that reduced performance and decreased emissions. But as the car was not on the road, the decrease in performance would not have been detected.
Some sources indicate it was a pure software cheat, others say it was a device including hardware. It could easily be a software cheat that needed extra hardware sensors and wiring.
Removing the 'defeat device' might mean that the cars need to be altered in other ways so they meet the emissions standards, and that might mean a decrease in performance.
How on Earth was PB victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
Part of the deal with the US government was that companies that had suffered from the spill could claim compensation. Many say the system was rather too free in deciding that companies had suffered and could claim. It's still not over.
I always compare the Deepwater Horizon incident with the American government's criminal and hideous behaviour of the Bhopal disaster, which caused many orders magnitude more suffering.
"Many say" a lot of things, especially when it comes to defending an extremely wealthy corporation. The article you linked didn't even attempt an argument for why the system was too free. The fact there was a deal between the BP and the US that BP willingly signed up to suggests it could have been worse.
I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the Bhopal disaster, but this is just whataboutery. Even ignoring the fact that it happened thirty years previously under a completely different presidential administration in a different country, poor behaviour in one case does not mean there is poor behaviour in another one. It does not follow that because a government behaved poorly in the 1980s that it should not be allowed to enforce the law today.
Ultimately it comes down to whether you think a fraction of one year's revenue and no criminal convictions is fitting punishment for killing eleven workers and untold environmental damage across thousands of miles.
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
I'm no lawyer but shouldn't someone at BP have read the settlement agreement before signing it?
What choice did they have? They could have been prevented from doing business in America and had their assets seized. Same with Standard Chartered. When you're the biggest kid in the playground, you can make the rules up as you go along.
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
I'm no lawyer but shouldn't someone at BP have read the settlement agreement before signing it?
If it was a 2-1 ruling, presumably it was possible to read it another way than the majority did, which may or may not have been more reasonable (of course I haven't read it), and so what they agreed in good faith or otherwise may have been entirely different from what theruling implied.
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
Yes, it was despicable. Huge publicity error on BP's part not send an American senior person to front their recovery operation rather than a British one as I see it, but wouldn't have made any material difference to the daylight robbery that took place.
They did send an American: Bob Dudley, who went on to run BP.
No, the early guy was Tony something was it not? I seem to remember he was doing a bit of a 'we're not perfect guys' self-effacing Brit act and it going down like a bag of warm sick.
Tony Hayward was CEO on BP at the time, and he went over to oversee. However, Bob Dudley - the highest ranking American at BP (and former TNK-BP CEO) - was put in charge of the clean-up.
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
Yes, it was despicable. Huge publicity error on BP's part not send an American senior person to front their recovery operation rather than a British one as I see it, but wouldn't have made any material difference to the daylight robbery that took place.
It seems like a somewhat inconsistent attitude to complain about American corporations ruining out environment, and yet demanding that British corporations doing the same should not have to pay compensation for one of the worst oil spills in recent times.
In Labour's Leadership it had 76.3% of the voters.
Yep. After a 3 (?) month travelling comedy festival that felt like a Ralph McTell (?) National Tour with scores of hustings, 5 of which were televised.
Compared to a one month campaign and 3 week voting period ignored by the media.
The LDs did just fine, and 56% still isn't "barely 50%".
Poor Kezia has had her Johann Lamont moment, possibly not quite as bad as when Lamont claimed "we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions".
Now Kezia claims Scotland and Wales are much smaller than the rest of England.
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
I'm no lawyer but shouldn't someone at BP have read the settlement agreement before signing it?
What choice did they have? They could have been prevented from doing business in America and had their assets seized. Same with Standard Chartered. When you're the biggest kid in the playground, you can make the rules up as you go along.
The rules weren't made up as they went along. BP sought a plea deal in exchange for not being exposed to the much larger amount they could have been charged if it went to court.
Mr. JEO, might be a reference to the (from vague memory) rather different treatment of BP compared to other involved companies (which were American, I think).
Yes, it was despicable. Huge publicity error on BP's part not send an American senior person to front their recovery operation rather than a British one as I see it, but wouldn't have made any material difference to the daylight robbery that took place.
They did send an American: Bob Dudley, who went on to run BP.
No, the early guy was Tony something was it not? I seem to remember he was doing a bit of a 'we're not perfect guys' self-effacing Brit act and it going down like a bag of warm sick.
Off topic - What I heard on the radio this morning sounded like an impending financial disaster for the entire vehicle industry.
Not just the VW stuff, I think some massive EU/US fines are coming across the entire industry with regards to emmissions/economy.
The potential stick of not being able to trade in two of the world's biggest markets makes them readily enforcable too... Shares are down all across the board this morning - but I think vehicle manufacturers have the particular problems today.
Well maybe.
But if all car manufacturers are in the shit on hitting an emissions target plucked out of politicians bums what are politicans going to do - ban selling cars altogether ?
Can't see it myself and certainly not with the french germans and japanese.
Sorry, but that's no excuse for them. They've been caught lying to consumers in a massive way and they should be punished for it. Like it or not, MPG and environmental figures matter to consumers and have taken a greater importance as a differentiator given that most cars of the same type are much of a muchness.
This is on top of the MPG shenanigans various manufacturers have been caught lying about.
Since the manufacturers have proved themselves repeatedly untrustworthy on a whole host of matters, important statistics such as MPG and emissions figures should be taken totally out of their hands and into a separate organisation.
I'm not saying it is an excuse, it is however the reality, It's like the banks caught cheating, sub some fudge which keeps the whole show on the road.
The car manufacturers will get massive fines. What governments should not do is use fines as a form of protectionism for their own domestic industries.
There's no way in the current climate that politicians will reduce the environmental limits, especially now at least one manufacturer has been caught cheating on them.
And it is the sheer scale of the cheating that's amazing. This isn't like the MPG fiddling scandal; this is blatant and cleverly engineered cheating. I'm utterly appalled, yet wryly admire their gall.
Been in a meeting Mr J
I fankly expected better from you as an engineer. My point is not what the politicians will or won't say, it's the fact that practically you can;t fix the problem overnight. If the current engines don't cut the mustard new ones have to be developed, tolling put down and parts manufactured. That will take a couple of years so what are you going to do in between, ban diesels ?
And nobody has yet spoken about diesel engines on trucks and vans.If they have cheat software too then it's major poo time.
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
I'm no lawyer but shouldn't someone at BP have read the settlement agreement before signing it?
Yes, that thought has occurred to me as well. But I suspect they weren't given any choice.
'The hope wasn’t to bring down Cameron but to humilate him in retirement. Ashcroft was bruised by a failure to consult him about big decisions during the 2010 campaign and the offer of what he saw as a derisory role as a Foreign Office whip after the election. '
Billionaire behaving like a four year old.
Billionaire believing his own polls?
Undoubtedly – The one thing that has not gone according to plan for His Lordship’s little hatchet job was the election outcome. – Alas, with the PM still in situ, Ms Oakeshott’s future employment opportunities may also have taken a downturn. Ain’t life an itch?
How on Earth was PB victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
Part of the deal with the US government was that companies that had suffered from the spill could claim compensation. Many say the system was rather too free in deciding that companies had suffered and could claim. It's still not over.
I always compare the Deepwater Horizon incident with the American government's criminal and hideous behaviour of the Bhopal disaster, which caused many orders magnitude more suffering.
"Many say" a lot of things, especially when it comes to defending an extremely wealthy corporation. The article you linked didn't even attempt an argument for why the system was too free. The fact there was a deal between the BP and the US that BP willingly signed up to suggests it could have been worse.
I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the Bhopal disaster, but this is just whataboutery. Even ignoring the fact that it happened thirty years previously under a completely different presidential administration in a different country, poor behaviour in one case does not mean there is poor behaviour in another one. It does not follow that because a government behaved poorly in the 1980s that it should not be allowed to enforce the law today.
Ultimately it comes down to whether you think a fraction of one year's revenue and no criminal convictions is fitting punishment for killing eleven workers and untold environmental damage across thousands of miles.
Bhopal is not whataboutery. You ought to read up on it: it's a terrible indictment of US corporate culture and governance, and one people are still suffering from.
As for your BP comments: we'll have to agree to differ.
My gut feeling is that VW will survive, but they will have to sell assets in order to protect the core brand, I could see them having to dispose of Porche at least, possibly Audi. Their Spanish brandsay end up being packaged up and sold to someone like Ferrovial.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
IANAE, but it looks as though they inserted into cars in the US at least a device ("defeat") that detected when the car was being tested for emissions and put the engine into a mode that reduced performance and decreased emissions. But as the car was not on the road, the decrease in performance would not have been detected.
Some sources indicate it was a pure software cheat, others say it was a device including hardware. It could easily be a software cheat that needed extra hardware sensors and wiring.
Removing the 'defeat device' might mean that the cars need to be altered in other ways so they meet the emissions standards, and that might mean a decrease in performance.
Perhaps. It's early days.
If the device is really called "Defeat", then isn't it more than possible VW could be open to conspiracy charges and potentially getting RICOed?
In the mean time, we're missing some pretty disappointing borrowing figures today.
Given we're likely to hit another recession within the lifetime of this parliament, I'd be starting worry if I were George. For a lot of voters, the only reason they choose the Tories is because they're competent on the economy.
I fankly expected better from you as an engineer. My point is not what the politicians will or won't say, it's the fact that practically you can;t fix the problem overnight. If the current engines don't cut the mustard new ones have to be developed, tolling put down and parts manufactured. That will take a couple of years so what are you going to do in between, ban diesels ?
And nobody has yet spoken about diesel engines on trucks and vans.If they have cheat software too then it's major poo time.
Sorry if I've disappointed you. I'll try harder in future.
AIUI (And IANAE), the engines can be detuned to meet the emissions targets, which means less performance (which is apparently what 'defeat' did). We'll probably have a couple of years of poorer performance before progress brings the engines without the cheat up to where they were before with the cheat. But I doubt it will make engines unusable.
Agree about other engines as well. But as I said below, I wouldn't bet against petrol engines having similar cheats in.
If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
I'm no lawyer but shouldn't someone at BP have read the settlement agreement before signing it?
Yes, that thought has occurred to me as well. But I suspect they weren't given any choice.
Of course they had a choice. They just decided that their upside risk if the case went to trial was a worse option. Personally, my belief is that the sparsity of these cases against corporations going to trial in the US is a sign they are getting off too easily.
How on Earth was [BP] victimised? Eleven people were killed by their negligence, no individual was jailed and they were fined 5% of their revenue. They got off with a tap on the wrist.
They were hit by a load of completely spurious claims, which the US courts to their shame upheld, from a large number of people who didn't in fact incur any losses:
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
I'm no lawyer but shouldn't someone at BP have read the settlement agreement before signing it?
What choice did they have? They could have been prevented from doing business in America and had their assets seized. Same with Standard Chartered. When you're the biggest kid in the playground, you can make the rules up as you go along.
The rules weren't made up as they went along. BP sought a plea deal in exchange for not being exposed to the much larger amount they could have been charged if it went to court.
In the mean time, we're missing some pretty disappointing borrowing figures today.
Given we're likely to hit another recession within the lifetime of this parliament, I'd be starting worry if I were George. For a lot of voters, the only reason they choose the Tories is because they're competent on the economy.
With a popular Tory leader and shambolic Labour leader, a minor recession might not be a killer - but if Corbyn or successor are not as shambolic as predicted and Osborne, whose reputation will hang on eliminating the deficit (he's gotten away with delaying it significantly once already, but if you cannot manage it in 10 years that's ridiculous), leading the Tories, even a minor one could prove a killer.
Poor Kezia has had her Johann Lamont moment, possibly not quite as bad as when Lamont claimed "we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions".
Now Kezia claims Scotland and Wales are much smaller than the rest of England.
In the mean time, we're missing some pretty disappointing borrowing figures today.
Given we're likely to hit another recession within the lifetime of this parliament, I'd be starting worry if I were George. For a lot of voters, the only reason they choose the Tories is because they're competent on the economy.
If you go on CiF you'll see lots of rejoicing from the lefties - even though any criticism of Osborne can only be made from the right.
Poor Kezia has had her Johann Lamont moment, possibly not quite as bad as when Lamont claimed "we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions".
Now Kezia claims Scotland and Wales are much smaller than the rest of England.
Bit of a brain fart in muddling up "England"/"rest of Britain" but entirely factually correct.
No doubt it was.
But much like Lamont's moment, it is how it will be played by her opponents that matters. In context, Lamont didn't even mean what she is portrayed as having meant. The way Kezia seems to pause for thought before saying England just sounds terrible.
On a more general point about Kezia, she is consistently guilty of verbal diarrhoea and speaks far too quickly for a politician, reducing her thinking time dramatically. It is very obvious that she badly needs coaching but it also appears obvious that this is beyond the ability of SLAB to provide.
I fankly expected better from you as an engineer. My point is not what the politicians will or won't say, it's the fact that practically you can;t fix the problem overnight. If the current engines don't cut the mustard new ones have to be developed, tolling put down and parts manufactured. That will take a couple of years so what are you going to do in between, ban diesels ?
And nobody has yet spoken about diesel engines on trucks and vans.If they have cheat software too then it's major poo time.
Sorry if I've disappointed you. I'll try harder in future.
AIUI (And IANAE), the engines can be detuned to meet the emissions targets, which means less performance (which is apparently what 'defeat' did). We'll probably have a couple of years of poorer performance before progress brings the engines without the cheat up to where they were before with the cheat. But I doubt it will make engines unusable.
Agree about other engines as well. But as I said below, I wouldn't bet against petrol engines having similar cheats in.
If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.
But even detuning means engines have to be homologated and production lines reset to whatever standard. Politicians can yell all they want but if they want the job done properly then it will take time and they are not going to shut down car plants, suppliers and dealers until the VMs conform. All they can do is postpone legislation and fine the offenders.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
IANAE, but it looks as though they inserted into cars in the US at least a device ("defeat") that detected when the car was being tested for emissions and put the engine into a mode that reduced performance and decreased emissions. But as the car was not on the road, the decrease in performance would not have been detected.
Some sources indicate it was a pure software cheat, others say it was a device including hardware. It could easily be a software cheat that needed extra hardware sensors and wiring.
Removing the 'defeat device' might mean that the cars need to be altered in other ways so they meet the emissions standards, and that might mean a decrease in performance.
Perhaps. It's early days.
If the device is really called "Defeat", then isn't it more than possible VW could be open to conspiracy charges and potentially getting RICOed?
I'm guessing that it was called 'Defeat' by the authorities who discovered it. If it was really called that by VW (or a German equivalent word), then it doesn't particularly make it much worse, as it's exceptionally improbable that such a thing could have got in without many people knowing, from the software development side to testing.
The people who allegedly cheated in the GM ignition scandal allegedly had to get very inventive to get way with it as long as they did. And this is a much bigger issue, involving more people.
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
I'm no lawyer but won't the VWs be 'missold' ? So VW might get stung again by a civil lawsuit or some such ?
I might be wrong, but that's my reading of it. But perhaps removing the defeat cheat won't have much effect on normal usage. In which case, why have it? I doubt the required standards are that stringently onerous. AFAICT the problem is in marrying the differing requirements of performance versus emissions.
I'd alsoa culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
IANAE, but it looks as though they inserted into cars in the US at least a device ("defeat") that in other ways so they meet the emissions standards, and that might mean a decrease in performance.
Perhaps. It's early days.
If the device is really called "Defeat", then isn't it more than possible VW could be open to conspiracy charges and potentially getting RICOed?
I'm guessing that it was called 'Defeat' by the authorities who discovered it. If it was really called that by VW (or a German equivalent word), then it doesn't particularly make it much worse, as it's exceptionally improbable that such a thing could have got in without many people knowing, from the software development side to testing.
The people who allegedly cheated in the GM ignition scandal allegedly had to get very inventive to get way with it as long as they did. And this is a much bigger issue, involving more people.
maybe the Germans called it Downfall - expect a video at any moment :-)
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If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.
But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).
I fankly expected better from you as an engineer. My point is not what the politicians will or won't say, it's the fact that practically you can;t fix the problem overnight. If the current engines don't cut the mustard new ones have to be developed, tolling put down and parts manufactured. That will take a couple of years so what are you going to do in between, ban diesels ?
And nobody has yet spoken about diesel engines on trucks and vans.If they have cheat software too then it's major poo time.
Sorry if I've disappointed you. I'll try harder in future.
AIUI (And IANAE), the engines can be detuned to meet the emissions targets, which means less performance (which is apparently what 'defeat' did). We'll probably have a couple of years of poorer performance before progress brings the engines without the cheat up to where they were before with the cheat. But I doubt it will make engines unusable.
Agree about other engines as well. But as I said below, I wouldn't bet against petrol engines having similar cheats in.
If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.
But even detuning means engines have to be homologated and production lines reset to whatever standard. Politicians can yell all they want but if they want the job done properly then it will take time and they are not going to shut down car plants, suppliers and dealers until the VMs conform. All they can do is postpone legislation and fine the offenders.
Good points. But I'd be amazed if VW didn't already have hundreds of people working on exactly those issues. I'd expect it to be mainly a software issue (*) rather than large-scale hardware change, especially as 'Defeat' could alter the engine to make it pass. Although I might well be wrong on that, particularly on the side-effects of the change.
(*) I't s not often I say 'mainly a software issue' dismissively!
If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.
But the bottom line is that [most] consumers don't give a flying f*ck about emissions, except inasmuch as they qualify the car for a lower tax band. This requires a regulatory response (and I quite agree that VW have got everything coming to them, hopefully including jail time for fraud).
What sort of 'regulatory response' do you mean? There's absolutely no way they'll reduce the emissions targets just because one (that we know of) manufacturer has been blatantly cheating.
All we'll probably get are cars with reduced performance.
Comments
Get a grip.
I used to work for the government's computer security arm, and the automotive and safety industry made us look like sloppy, hand waving cowboys.
I wouldn't be surprised if the practice extends beyond VW though. LIBOR II in the offing?
The history of essentially faked MPG figures does not bode well for other companies.
As an example, GM's ignition-key problem, which was safety critical, is still working its way through the courts cost them $900 million in fines alone, yet alone compensation for the scores of deaths attributable to the problem. Yet there might just have been a few engineers at fault for that scandal, which was not a deliberate attempt to cheat consumers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_General_Motors_recall
At worst, consumers may find they have cars remaining at the same power level but failing tests, or cars with degraded performance that meet the standards. Either way, consumers have a right to be very peeved.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/joris-luyendijk-bankers-are-the-best-paid-victims-we-should-hug-them-not-be-angry-a2952051.html
"[He predicts] the next crisis could be caused by terrorists hijacking banking IT systems. “They’re so vulnerable. Because banks were merging and acquiring like crazy, they glued systems together."
Some other choice quotes:
“It’s a fundamental misunderstanding that we’re too stupid to understand the problems of finance. A seven-year-old understands perverse incentives. Tell them: ‘Half the class doesn’t do their homework, half does and they all get the same grade; what will happen?’ That’s the bank.”
“The old mindset is intact: ‘If it’s legal, we’ll do it, and our well-paid lobbyists will ensure it’s legal’.
"If you don’t screw that German bank, your colleague opposite will — and you’ll be culled. Blaming people for acting on incentives is stupid.” Incentives that still exist. “All we’ve had are these cultural sensitivity courses: begging bankers on our knees: ‘even though you can screw us — will you please not screw us?’ We keep blaming individual bankers, when we need the system to change.”"
Bearing in mind that people ranging from Prescott Ashdown Major Cook etc etc ... have clearly proven acts of stupidity at their door - and this when they were actually in office or MPs - then the
dogs breakfast'vengeful malice' being peddled by Ashcroft will not shake many MPs.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_leadership_election,_2015
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34298259
It will probably end up at a lot more than the half-million mentioned there - VW have already said 11 million vehicles could be affected, although I don't know if they'll all be recalled.
Scott_P wrote "Good news for the mystery MP. The photo might be legal after all. Publish and be damned..."
Clearly the photo is not legal and it does not matter when it was taken. Possession and/or publication of it is an offence.
The Yanks like turning a criminal into a victim.
The offence is not publication; it is possession.
All it needs is for MP 'x' to be identified, and a complaint made to the police.
Presumably a helicopter and SWAT team would descend on the Right Hon Bufton-Tufton STBXMP statim.
I'd also be wary in thinking that this type of thing is only a feature of diesel engines. It's perfectly possible that manufacturers have been cheating figures for petrol and even electrical/hybrid as well.
I can imagine all the major manufacturers are doing rapid internal audits. If they are doing something wrong, it might be best do admit it and do a mea culpa than be discovered.
As a side issue, I'm half-expecting the 'supplier did it' excuse to be used in some cases, even if the responsibility still lies with the manufacturer.
The point is the market in the USA where VW were trying to push and expand is a relatively small diesel market. l am not at all sure that owners are particularly bothered about emissions. The technology needed to manage engines just makes them expensive and unreliable.
I wonder how many years profit of VW USA it would take to recoup $12bn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
THAT is a tap on the wrist.
What happened to BP is corporate piracy.
'The hope wasn’t to bring down Cameron but to humilate him in retirement. Ashcroft was bruised by a failure to consult him about big decisions during the 2010 campaign and the offer of what he saw as a derisory role as a Foreign Office whip after the election. '
Billionaire behaving like a four year old.
The law here is an ass. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/teenager-prosecuted-under-child-pornography-6483507
“In light of our reading of the settlement agreement,” U.S. Circuit Judge Leslie Southwick wrote in the panel’s 2-1 ruling, “we conclude the settlement agreement does not require a claimant to submit evidence that the claim arose as a result of the oil spill.”
(There have been various appeals since but I think that the judgement still stands).
It's shaken my faith in VW as a brand.
The compensation setup has allowed any number of people and businesses to have fictional claims simply waved through iirc with no need to show damage.
VW build many cars in the USA. lt has plants in north south and central America. lts plant in Chattanooga Tennessee can build 150000 cars a year.
BMW have a large plant in South Carolina.
Try again.
It was quite shameless given BP employ more US than GB workers.
http://fortune.com/2015/07/13/bp-billions-compensation-claims/
I always compare the Deepwater Horizon incident with the American government's criminal and hideous behaviour of the Bhopal disaster, which caused many orders magnitude more suffering.
Would anyone be surprised if it turned out all car makers had done similar?
Billionaire behaving like a four year old.
Billionaire believing his own polls?
Which was doubly disgraceful as the company hasn't been called British Petroleum since 1998.
Some sources indicate it was a pure software cheat, others say it was a device including hardware. It could easily be a software cheat that needed extra hardware sensors and wiring.
Removing the 'defeat device' might mean that the cars need to be altered in other ways so they meet the emissions standards, and that might mean a decrease in performance.
Perhaps. It's early days.
“Carmakers are trying to greenwash dirty diesel to hide the truth that compared to a petrol car a typical new diesel car on the road emits 10 times more nitrogen oxides. While carmakers claim modern diesels are clean they are pushing to delay and weaken the introduction of new pollution tests."
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/11/have-diesel-cars-been-unfairly-demonised-for-air-pollution
I wouldn't say any car manufacturer is clean on this or similar cheats, or that only diesels are problematic. They all need thoroughly retesting.
I recall an episode of Top Gear when Clarkson was driving an E Type and mocking the originally claimed for top speed.
I can imagine that everyone is at this stuff if VW are indulging. Like fiddling death figures in the NHS - all it takes is one bright spark and it gets copied all over the shop.
I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the Bhopal disaster, but this is just whataboutery. Even ignoring the fact that it happened thirty years previously under a completely different presidential administration in a different country, poor behaviour in one case does not mean there is poor behaviour in another one. It does not follow that because a government behaved poorly in the 1980s that it should not be allowed to enforce the law today.
Ultimately it comes down to whether you think a fraction of one year's revenue and no criminal convictions is fitting punishment for killing eleven workers and untold environmental damage across thousands of miles.
Compared to a one month campaign and 3 week voting period ignored by the media.
The LDs did just fine, and 56% still isn't "barely 50%".
(Declares victory and goes in search of lunch)
Poor Kezia has had her Johann Lamont moment, possibly not quite as bad as when Lamont claimed "we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions".
Now Kezia claims Scotland and Wales are much smaller than the rest of England.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/therell-always-be-a-britain/
PR disaster.
Can it get any better?
The shadow SOS for international development is Jezza’s bitch and the PM enjoys carnal relationships with deceased porcines.
Who said politics is boring?
I fankly expected better from you as an engineer. My point is not what the politicians will or won't say, it's the fact that practically you can;t fix the problem overnight. If the current engines don't cut the mustard new ones have to be developed, tolling put down and parts manufactured. That will take a couple of years so what are you going to do in between, ban diesels ?
And nobody has yet spoken about diesel engines on trucks and vans.If they have cheat software too then it's major poo time.
As for your BP comments: we'll have to agree to differ.
Given we're likely to hit another recession within the lifetime of this parliament, I'd be starting worry if I were George. For a lot of voters, the only reason they choose the Tories is because they're competent on the economy.
AIUI (And IANAE), the engines can be detuned to meet the emissions targets, which means less performance (which is apparently what 'defeat' did). We'll probably have a couple of years of poorer performance before progress brings the engines without the cheat up to where they were before with the cheat. But I doubt it will make engines unusable.
Agree about other engines as well. But as I said below, I wouldn't bet against petrol engines having similar cheats in.
If a manufacturer wanted to get really good kudos atm, they should go on the record to say they're totally clean in this regard, and challenge independent labs to test them. They'd hoover up the market.
If it hadn't happened in India where lives apparently didn't matter much...
This from BBC 1984
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJg19W8x_Ls
But much like Lamont's moment, it is how it will be played by her opponents that matters. In context, Lamont didn't even mean what she is portrayed as having meant. The way Kezia seems to pause for thought before saying England just sounds terrible.
On a more general point about Kezia, she is consistently guilty of verbal diarrhoea and speaks far too quickly for a politician, reducing her thinking time dramatically. It is very obvious that she badly needs coaching but it also appears obvious that this is beyond the ability of SLAB to provide.
The people who allegedly cheated in the GM ignition scandal allegedly had to get very inventive to get way with it as long as they did. And this is a much bigger issue, involving more people.
(*) I't s not often I say 'mainly a software issue' dismissively!
All we'll probably get are cars with reduced performance.