@GuidoFawkes: LISTEN PM: "We just thought people in Yorkshire hated everyone else, we didn’t realise they hated each other so much” http://t.co/XSYaE0DQOg
SK is also the union shill candidate - the champion of tube strikes.
Add in Crosby running ZG's campaign...
And tapping in to the awesome election database they built up for the General in May..... Probably only need to enter a couple of new parameters into their Al Gore Rhythms - and they will be able to predict the anti-Khan vote with great precision.
"The political dictionary requires a new word for what Labour are doing."
If Jezza wins, they will need a new name. New Labour will seem tainted with election success, so what about "Revolutionary Labour"?
But I still hope even though the votes are cast.
1983 may be looked back upon with nostalgia; a time when when they had a scruffy bastard for leader, but one who had at least two brain cells to rub together.
Twitter George Eaton @georgeeaton 12m12 minutes ago Sadiq Khan confirms that he will stand down as Tooting MP. Early by-election test for Labour in marginal seat.
The political dictionary requires a new word for what Labour are doing to themselves. This is far beyond the mild Tory madness of IDS.
Has any serious Western party, from Europe to North America to Australasia, spazzed out the way Labour are spazzing out now?
The Swedish Social Democrats are doing their best to court oblivion with their migration policy.
They will keep most of the core nothing more which will help them avoid the fate of Canada's Progressive Conservatives and Greece's PASOK who were outflanked by Reform and Syriza to the I right and left respectively
I've been waiting months to use the Wrath of Khan gag.
I am no Trekky (honest ! no really really honest!), but was not "Khan" a "product of late 20th century genetic engineering"?. In which case he walks amongst us right now......... just sayin'
Twitter George Eaton @georgeeaton 12m12 minutes ago Sadiq Khan confirms that he will stand down as Tooting MP. Early by-election test for Labour in marginal seat.
I've been waiting months to use the Wrath of Khan gag.
I am no Trekky (honest ! no really really honest!), but was not "Khan" a "product of late 20th century genetic engineering"?. In which case he walks amongst us right now......... just sayin'
He was from this era. The Eugenics war took place in 1996
"The political dictionary requires a new word for what Labour are doing."
If Jezza wins, they will need a new name. New Labour will seem tainted with election success, so what about "Revolutionary Labour"?
But I still hope even though the votes are cast.
1983 may be looked back upon with nostalgia; a time when when they had a scruffy bastard for leader, but one who had at least two brain cells to rub together.
Twitter George Eaton @georgeeaton 12m12 minutes ago Sadiq Khan confirms that he will stand down as Tooting MP. Early by-election test for Labour in marginal seat.
And just yesterday we were talking about the fact there would be no by-elections in 2015! Unless the writ isn't moved until new years.
I've been waiting months to use the Wrath of Khan gag.
I am no Trekky (honest ! no really really honest!), but was not "Khan" a "product of late 20th century genetic engineering"?. In which case he walks amongst us right now......... just sayin'
He was from this era. The Eugenics war took place in 1996
I was a bit busy in '96, so I must've missed that.
Twitter George Eaton @georgeeaton 12m12 minutes ago Sadiq Khan confirms that he will stand down as Tooting MP. Early by-election test for Labour in marginal seat.
I've been waiting months to use the Wrath of Khan gag.
I am no Trekky (honest ! no really really honest!), but was not "Khan" a "product of late 20th century genetic engineering"?. In which case he walks amongst us right now......... just sayin'
He was from this era. The Eugenics war took place in 1996
I was a bit busy in '96, so I must've missed that.
I always thought of Foot as unworldly and idealistic - someone totally unsuited to the rough and tumble of daily politics.
Corbyn has been exposed as someone with a dark agenda based on hating rather too much of our country, and sucking up to anyone who threatens us.
Thankfully, he'll never ever be PM - no matter what @JosiasJessop muses as a whatifery scenario
Needless to say, I hope you're right and I'm wrong (although I've never said he will be PM; just that he might cause the Conservatives more trouble than people think atm).
I've been waiting months to use the Wrath of Khan gag.
I am no Trekky (honest ! no really really honest!), but was not "Khan" a "product of late 20th century genetic engineering"?. In which case he walks amongst us right now......... just sayin'
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I always thought of Foot as unworldly and idealistic - someone totally unsuited to the rough and tumble of daily politics.
Corbyn has been exposed as someone with a dark agenda based on hating rather too much of our country, and sucking up to anyone who threatens us.
Thankfully, he'll never ever be PM - no matter what @JosiasJessop muses as a whatifery scenario
Needless to say, I hope you're right and I'm wrong (although I've never said he will be PM; just that he might cause the Conservatives more trouble than people think atm).
Hesurely will do - despite the efforts of excited Tories to remain grounded, just in case, the temptation to think he will be as terrible as things appear is understandable and the dream will surely, surely, have to stop at some point for them.
UKIP should not stand in the London Mayoralty. Every vote counts, Khan cannot be MoL.
I'd be voting Goldsmith even if I were the UKIP candidate!!
You know that the London Mayoralty uses Supplementary Vote right? So you can Vote UKIP-1, Zac-2.
Oh I didn't actually! I'm not really into all that
Anything to stop a left wing muslim who proposes ethnic quotas running London. Seeing the violence in Brick Lane last night, this could be the start of a lot of trouble.
Ill vote Zac-1 Zac-2 just to make sure there can be no misunderstanding.
If Khan wins I'll start OZIP (Outer Zones Independence Party)
I've been waiting months to use the Wrath of Khan gag.
I guess 'Into the Darkness' might be problematic.....
Goodpoint. 'This might earn me the wrath of Khan, but might he lead London Labour Into Darkness?' is perhaps too contrived. Perhaps.
Stephen Hawking was postulating the other day (think it was him) that Black Holes might not lead to oblivion as previously thought but once past the event horizon there was no return possible but you might pass into a parallel universe. Which seems oddly apt for reasons I can't quite put my fingers on this weekend.......
Heathrow now seriously in play. What is Corbynista view of airport expansion?
Against.
Whilst I still prefer Boris Island to Heathrow expansion as a long-term solution, that battle's been lost. London needs more capacity ASAP, and more endless talking will just cause the London and UK economy harm.
''Corbyn has been exposed as someone with a dark agenda based on hating rather too much of our country, and sucking up to anyone who threatens us.'' I used to think labour were simply indifferent to south east dwelling tories like me. They just ignored us. Now I think there's genuine hatred. Hopefully that will galvanise conservatives.
Well I have always realised it. I'm contemplating joining the Tory Party. Do they have a special rate for pensioners?
Twitter George Eaton @georgeeaton 12m12 minutes ago Sadiq Khan confirms that he will stand down as Tooting MP. Early by-election test for Labour in marginal seat.
And just yesterday we were talking about the fact there would be no by-elections in 2015! Unless the writ isn't moved until new years.
Edit: oh, it's if he wins!
That pushed a potential Labour loss only after the London elections and only in the case Khan hasn't lost anyway. That gives 8 months for Corbyn to get his act together.
UKIP should not stand in the London Mayoralty. Every vote counts, Khan cannot be MoL.
I'd be voting Goldsmith even if I were the UKIP candidate!!
You know that the London Mayoralty uses Supplementary Vote right? So you can Vote UKIP-1, Zac-2.
Oh I didn't actually! I'm not really into all that
Anything to stop a left wing muslim who proposes ethnic quotas running London. Seeing the violence in Brick Lane last night, this could be the start of a lot of trouble.
Ill vote Zac-1 Zac-2 just to make sure there can be no misunderstanding.
If Khan wins I'll start OZIP (Outer Zones Independence Party)
Were you not the UKIP candidate in Islington ? Did you win ?
''Corbyn has been exposed as someone with a dark agenda based on hating rather too much of our country, and sucking up to anyone who threatens us.'' I used to think labour were simply indifferent to south east dwelling tories like me. They just ignored us. Now I think there's genuine hatred. Hopefully that will galvanise conservatives.
Well I have always realised it. I'm contemplating joining the Tory Party. Do they have a special rate for pensioners?
Heathrow now seriously in play. What is Corbynista view of airport expansion?
Against.
Whilst I still prefer Boris Island to Heathrow expansion as a long-term solution, that battle's been lost. London needs more capacity ASAP, and more endless talking will just cause the London and UK economy harm.
Heathrow now seriously in play. What is Corbynista view of airport expansion?
Against.
Whilst I still prefer Boris Island to Heathrow expansion as a long-term solution, that battle's been lost. London needs more capacity ASAP, and more endless talking will just cause the London and UK economy harm.
Let's get building at Heathrow.
I agree with you on both counts. I was stuck circling Heathrow for 30 minutes yesterday morning and missed my connecting flight grrr. Was stuck in Terminal 5 for 4 hours!!!
Thanks TSE that's interesting and in London doesn't surprise me. Food for thought as to the make up of Corbyn's cabinet, I'd suggest it'll be very London/ethnic centric.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
UKIP should not stand in the London Mayoralty. Every vote counts, Khan cannot be MoL.
I'd be voting Goldsmith even if I were the UKIP candidate!!
You know that the London Mayoralty uses Supplementary Vote right? So you can Vote UKIP-1, Zac-2.
Oh I didn't actually! I'm not really into all that
Anything to stop a left wing muslim who proposes ethnic quotas running London. Seeing the violence in Brick Lane last night, this could be the start of a lot of trouble.
Ill vote Zac-1 Zac-2 just to make sure there can be no misunderstanding.
If Khan wins I'll start OZIP (Outer Zones Independence Party)
Were you not the UKIP candidate in Islington ? Did you win ?
UKIP should not stand in the London Mayoralty. Every vote counts, Khan cannot be MoL.
I'd be voting Goldsmith even if I were the UKIP candidate!!
You know that the London Mayoralty uses Supplementary Vote right? So you can Vote UKIP-1, Zac-2.
Oh I didn't actually! I'm not really into all that
Anything to stop a left wing muslim who proposes ethnic quotas running London. Seeing the violence in Brick Lane last night, this could be the start of a lot of trouble.
Ill vote Zac-1 Zac-2 just to make sure there can be no misunderstanding.
If Khan wins I'll start OZIP (Outer Zones Independence Party)
Were you not the UKIP candidate in Islington ? Did you win ?
If you want to know another example of Labour's problem's it's that Abbott got through to the fourth round, whilst Wolmar got knocked out in the second.
30% of Abbott's vote was redistributed to Jowell (ignoring those who didn't express a preference) - shows the dangers of assuming that blocs of votes switch in a regimented fashion. ABC punters take note.
FPT: Mr. kle4, there'll be some. People have bizarre fetishes [weirdest I ever heard of was a blinking fetish].
Disgrace that someone overtly proposing ethnic quotas in the workplace will aspire to be London mayor on Labour's behalf. It's sheer racism to literally discriminate based on skin colour.
Congrats on your win, Mr. Eagles, and thanks to Mr. Manson for his wise tip, which I foolishly did not follow [not sure if I saw it, to be fair].
Did you notice my subtle Star Trek reference?
Subtle?
I got the blindingly obvious ones, but perhaps I missed the subtle one?
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
I think you will find the Judge's report did not label him as a corrupt politician. It also did not find him as an extremist Jihadi.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
It was a very strong identity politics that kept a very corrupt and incompetent person as mayor, as such i'm allergic to people whom their only selling point is either the colour of their skin, their religion, or their gender.
Khan will have to persuade me that he isn't a new Lutfur Rahman.
Putting to one side the uneasy feeling of doom I have at the thought of Khan being Mayor of London and the carnage that will follow, you have to say great PB effort for the two candidates to have been tipped up at bigger than 12/1 combined
With regard to Brick Lane.. I have always found that the money spent there is welcomed but the presence of the mainly WASP clientele is most definitely not .. There was always the feeling of resentment when I was obliged to work there for a major production company and the female staff were definitely uncomfortable about their treatment when they had to leave the offices. Perhaps some curry hungry customers may look elsewhere if there is any more trouble.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
It was a very strong identity politics that kept a very corrupt and incompetent person as mayor, as such i'm allergic to people whom their only selling point is either the colour of their skin, their religion, or their gender.
Khan will have to persuade me that he isn't a new Lutfur Rahman.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
I think you will find the Judge's report did not label him as a corrupt politician. It also did not find him as an extremist Jihadi.
I thought he was dishing out money to his favourite causes in a bid to get re-elected? Sounds corrupt to me. I hope the Judge didn't call him an exemplar of British politics.
10 years ago when Cameron first came along it was all about how the Tories cared too and had no less of a moral conscience than Labour did, they just disagreed on means. It would appear they've given up on that and Osborne seems entirely comfortable in his ruthlessly cynical skin.
As you would expect given that it is the New Statesman it is not uncritical but his determination to dominate the centre ground and his easy acceptance of a positive roll for the State shows what problems Labour have.
You are easily taken in, Mr L. Centre ground fiddlesticks! In the general election, Cameron and Osborne posed as the "Continuity Coalition" (which was popular and successful), and Osborne has still not dropped the language of the Lib Dems. But he does not mean it, as can be seen in the way he has been savaging the policies that the Lib Dems brought to the last government.
And "a positive roll (sic) for the State"? - he is slashing expenditure right, left and centre. No wonder he is the darling of the Tory hard right wing.
So his "determination to dominate the centre ground", as you call it, is absolute nonsense. What you mean is his determination to redefine "the centre ground" as somewhere in the middle of the Tory spectrum.
Mr Booth is right on Osborne and the Tories.
What the country needs is a government founded on economic competence, but with a large amount of compassion. Labour fail on the one, and the Tories on the other. The Lib Dems are ready and waiting, and recent local government byelection results show that the people are missing them and want them back.
Heathrow now seriously in play. What is Corbynista view of airport expansion?
Against.
Whilst I still prefer Boris Island to Heathrow expansion as a long-term solution, that battle's been lost. London needs more capacity ASAP, and more endless talking will just cause the London and UK economy harm.
Let's get building at Heathrow.
Why can't Londoners just connect through Amsterdam like the rest of us do?
The by-election people have been talking about will take place in Richmond - before the Mayor election.
The Tories are about to do a U-turn and Goldsmith is pledge bound to resign being an MP if that happens.
It might also suit him and the Tories. They wouldn't want discussions about Heathrow to dominate next May.
How is accepting the recommendations of a commission set up to look into a question, when you said you would accept said recommendations, a U-turn?
But Goldsmith has said categorically that he will resign if the Tory party policy changes on Heathrow
Isn't the policy to accept the recommendation of the commission? Surely this is a much better policy than arbitrarily deciding to do something/not to do something.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
I think you will find the Judge's report did not label him as a corrupt politician. It also did not find him as an extremist Jihadi.
I thought he was dishing out money to his favourite causes in a bid to get re-elected? Sounds corrupt to me. I hope the Judge didn't call him an exemplar of British politics.
I didn't know the Police were involved. Please enlighten us. Corruption is a criminal offence.
The by-election people have been talking about will take place in Richmond - before the Mayor election.
The Tories are about to do a U-turn and Goldsmith is pledge bound to resign being an MP if that happens.
It might also suit him and the Tories. They wouldn't want discussions about Heathrow to dominate next May.
How is accepting the recommendations of a commission set up to look into a question, when you said you would accept said recommendations, a U-turn?
But Goldsmith has said categorically that he will resign if the Tory party policy changes on Heathrow
Isn't the policy to accept the recommendation of the commission? Surely this is a much better policy than arbitrarily deciding to do something/not to do something.
Yes and yes. But an even better policy is to form a view objectively, listening to the commission as simply one point of view among many. The commission was very flawed, and did not take into account noise pollution in its economic calculations.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
I think you will find the Judge's report did not label him as a corrupt politician. It also did not find him as an extremist Jihadi.
I thought he was dishing out money to his favourite causes in a bid to get re-elected? Sounds corrupt to me. I hope the Judge didn't call him an exemplar of British politics.
How would you describe the act of Party's giving knighthood's to their donors ?
The by-election people have been talking about will take place in Richmond - before the Mayor election.
The Tories are about to do a U-turn and Goldsmith is pledge bound to resign being an MP if that happens.
It might also suit him and the Tories. They wouldn't want discussions about Heathrow to dominate next May.
How is accepting the recommendations of a commission set up to look into a question, when you said you would accept said recommendations, a U-turn?
But Goldsmith has said categorically that he will resign if the Tory party policy changes on Heathrow
Isn't the policy to accept the recommendation of the commission? Surely this is a much better policy than arbitrarily deciding to do something/not to do something.
We have brains though, we are instantly suspicious of a commission whose apparent job is to choose the government's preferred option.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
I think you will find the Judge's report did not label him as a corrupt politician. It also did not find him as an extremist Jihadi.
I thought he was dishing out money to his favourite causes in a bid to get re-elected? Sounds corrupt to me. I hope the Judge didn't call him an exemplar of British politics.
How would you describe the act of Party's giving knighthood's to their donors ?
What do the Tories want to do about Corbyn? If he is so terrible for Labour wouldn't it be better that he stayed there? Tim Montgomerie thinks this is a chance to knock Labour off their morally superior perch. Perhaps, but that in itself is rather revealing.
10 years ago when Cameron first came along it was all about how the Tories cared too and had no less of a moral conscience than Labour did, they just disagreed on means. It would appear they've given up on that and Osborne seems entirely comfortable in his ruthlessly cynical skin. It must grate them though to have to deal with Labour's sanctimony when the reality in their minds is that Labour is just as much in the moral gutter as they are. They're just two sides of the same opportunist coin who've chosen different paths.
Montgomerie reckons politics could be about to get ugly. That has its downsides but parliamentary democracy is supposed to represent the broad views of the electorate. If the nation starts washing its dirty laundry in the House of Commons it might at least be rather more honest than the phoney civility of the 'right honourable member.'
As you would expect given that it is the New Statesman it is not uncritical but his determination to dominate the centre ground and his easy acceptance of a positive roll for the State shows what problems Labour have. And that is before they elect an intellectual muppet.
hoorar for me!
Sorry Scrapheap, my memory is not what it was (as best as I can recall).
The Bus Drivers son v The Billionaires son. The back stories are intresting. I think Sadiq Khan is a good choice for London.
Obviously not for the disgusted from tunbridge wells on PB from the shires.
As one from the shires, I don't give a flying feck. London is a foreign land - nothing wrong with that, but from this distance I can't tell the difference between Livingstone London and Boris London.
I think Khan will be a bad mayor, after the well known painful decade long mayoralty of Lutfur Rahman, I have a deep distrust towards local muslim politicians.
I really don't think being Muslim made him a corrupt mayor.
I think you will find the Judge's report did not label him as a corrupt politician. It also did not find him as an extremist Jihadi.
I thought he was dishing out money to his favourite causes in a bid to get re-elected? Sounds corrupt to me. I hope the Judge didn't call him an exemplar of British politics.
I didn't know the Police were involved. Please enlighten us. Corruption is a criminal offence.
He was re-elected at the 2014 mayoral election, but the result of this election was cancelled and declared null and void on 23 April 2015 when the Election Court officially reported Rahman to be personally guilty of corrupt or illegal practices, or both (electoral fraud) under the Representation of the People Act 1983.[2][3]
Which sounds like the report did label him as a corrupt politician. Or one that engaged in illegal practices (or both.
Comments
I'd be voting Goldsmith even if I were the UKIP candidate!!
Is he wrong?
The back stories are intresting.
I think Sadiq Khan is a good choice for London.
Obviously not for the disgusted from tunbridge wells on PB from the shires.
"The political dictionary requires a new word for what Labour are doing."
If Jezza wins, they will need a new name. New Labour will seem tainted with election success, so what about "Revolutionary Labour"?
But I still hope even though the votes are cast.
1983 may be looked back upon with nostalgia; a time when when they had a scruffy bastard for leader, but one who had at least two brain cells to rub together.
George Eaton @georgeeaton 12m12 minutes ago
Sadiq Khan confirms that he will stand down as Tooting MP. Early by-election test for Labour in marginal seat.
It's welcome progress.
To finish 2nd.
AFAIK, Javed is a [ lapsed ] Muslim.
Aren't both Khan's and Javed's dads bus drivers ?
How many sleeps till the Corbyn coronation?
Perhaps TSE could explain the mechanics...
Corbyn has been exposed as someone with a dark agenda based on hating rather too much of our country, and sucking up to anyone who threatens us.
Thankfully, he'll never ever be PM - no matter what @JosiasJessop muses as a whatifery scenario
Edit: oh, it's if he wins!
One of the things that made EdM's reign so boring were only safe seats coming up during his tenure.
EDIT: He made a pretty fair case against them...
I used to think labour were simply indifferent to south east dwelling tories like me. They just ignored us.
Now I think there's genuine hatred. Hopefully that will galvanise conservatives.
What could be better ?
Anything to stop a left wing muslim who proposes ethnic quotas running London. Seeing the violence in Brick Lane last night, this could be the start of a lot of trouble.
Ill vote Zac-1 Zac-2 just to make sure there can be no misunderstanding.
If Khan wins I'll start OZIP (Outer Zones Independence Party)
Let's get building at Heathrow.
I'm contemplating joining the Tory Party. Do they have a special rate for pensioners?
I always new this is how Cameron felt about Yorkshire.
Results here: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/6153/ward_12_-_leith_walk_by-election_results_2015.pdf
In first round prefs SNP were first with Labour in Second. That was the eventual election result.
However it took the full 10 rounds for Labour to get the second seat. It must have been a gnat's whisker between them and the Greens
EDIT: Just seen the full rounds are available in that PDF, wasn't as close as I thought.
Try Gatwick instead.
All down to congestion.
Labour = Officially mad!
The Tories are about to do a U-turn and Goldsmith is pledge bound to resign being an MP if that happens.
It might also suit him and the Tories. They wouldn't want discussions about Heathrow to dominate next May.
If true, that will make a few people eat their words.
Oh wait, no it won't; they will carry on as before, always thinking they are right.
I got the blindingly obvious ones, but perhaps I missed the subtle one?
Khan will have to persuade me that he isn't a new Lutfur Rahman.
I am not on either! But well done @HenryGManson & @Tissue_Price
Even so, not a bad result for Ladbrokes; Jowell would have been much worse.
And "a positive roll (sic) for the State"? - he is slashing expenditure right, left and centre. No wonder he is the darling of the Tory hard right wing.
So his "determination to dominate the centre ground", as you call it, is absolute nonsense. What you mean is his determination to redefine "the centre ground" as somewhere in the middle of the Tory spectrum.
Mr Booth is right on Osborne and the Tories.
What the country needs is a government founded on economic competence, but with a large amount of compassion. Labour fail on the one, and the Tories on the other. The Lib Dems are ready and waiting, and recent local government byelection results show that the people are missing them and want them back.
http://www.talkcarswell.com/home/ukips-chance/2865
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_quota
Sadiq Khan has a personal success story , which will hopefully influence others from similar backgrounds.
Incidentally, wikipedia also states:
He was re-elected at the 2014 mayoral election, but the result of this election was cancelled and declared null and void on 23 April 2015 when the Election Court officially reported Rahman to be personally guilty of corrupt or illegal practices, or both (electoral fraud) under the Representation of the People Act 1983.[2][3]
Which sounds like the report did label him as a corrupt politician. Or one that engaged in illegal practices (or both.