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  • calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    I hope there is an even number of candidates.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    There is so much wrong with this... I don't know where to start. Or, more to the point, where it will end.
    ''Having a parliament that looks like the country we seek to represent'' could be dangerous. The Hollyrood Parliament serving Tennants at 8.30 in the morning?
    I think alcoholics are fairly well represented already in Parliament, as are people of dubious sexual and financial morals!

  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:
    twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    I cannot see an easy system of enforcing that.
    It is a noble aspiration. But I don't think legally enforceable quotas are the way to achieve it.
    Having said that, she is never going to be in a position to implement it, so we needn't worry.
    Well hold on a minute - is not part of the election from a list? This surely makes it easy to pile up the balance from constituency candidates with women. Doesn't it? Don't get me wrong... This by no means assumes they are good candidates, but would they need to be if stuck at the bottom of the list?
  • calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    I hope there is an even number of candidates.

    Choosing candidates on gender is a recipe for oblivion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    AndyJS said:
    So much for $100+
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,840
    Danny565 said:

    antifrank said:

    I'm trying to think of a single thing that Andy Burnham has got right in this campaign. I can't think of anything.

    He's been hugely diminished by the process.

    TBH he's come up to my low expectations. I've long been baffled by the fact that Labour supporters rate him, especially since they didn't in 2010. They judged him correctly then.
    From my recollection, in 2010 it wasn't so much that he was rejected, it was that he just wasn't really noticed or considered seriously. He was the least-interesting candidate behind the battle of the brothers, the marmite Brown right-hand man, and Diane the court jester.

    In the 5 years since then he established himself as the soft-left mainstream's dream candidate by actually having some principles while being reasonably "human" and down-to-earth (by the low standards of the shadow cabinet of policy wonks), but then he went and ruined it by spending the first half of his campaign prattling on about "aspiration", giving a "pro-business" speech at the HQ of a major tax-dodger, and flip-flopping on the Welfare Bill.
    A Labour member friend of mine described Burnham as a third-rate John Prescott i.e. blokey, northern and mildly centre-left. I don't think that's a million miles off, though Prescott had much more about him.

    For what it's worth, he also described Kendall as a brain-dead nobody, Cooper as 'the less intelligent and charismatic half of their household, and Corbyn as 'a tramp'. Not sure who he's voted for, though I do get the impression that he's underwhelmed with the candidates on offer.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    I hope there is an even number of candidates.
    By seeking this, she is setting out to make it impossible to get proper representation for those people who choose not to abide by cis-gender stereotypes.

    I find it totally offensive that this sector is being excluded from public life by cis-gendered politicians who are only interested in their cis-gendered view of the world.

    Appalling.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JohnO said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JohnO said:

    watford30 said:

    JohnO said:

    SeanT and SO are clawless pussies...

    ...If you really want to feel the love for Jeremy, over to

    https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/with_replies

    Ha Ha. Someone's cranked up the anger volume to 11.
    C'mon, tim, we need you back (until Sept 10th). Tell us what you really feel.
    Tories and Trots are #intenselyrelaxed about Corbyn. All the New/sensiblish Labour media, spads and politicos and geeks (Tim, Hattie, AndyB, Hodges, Rentoul, Southie, Monty) are all heading to a state of meltdown. But Tim is winning this contest.
    Not this Tory. If I had a vote it would be for Kendall with no transfers. But I don't believe in 'interfering' with opponents' internal electoral processes.
    On this occasion its not 'interfering' its an intervention

    Your duty to the country overrides your moral squeamishness

    Vote Kendall!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    I don't want to seem awkward, but hasn't Nicola Sturgeon already bust through any glass ceiling in Scottish politics?
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    I hope there is an even number of candidates.
    There's 128 plus speaker - obvious solution is to make it a legal requirement that the speaker is transgender !!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    isam said:

    All it takes is nutters at the extremities of each side to commit acts of violence and the match is put on to the gunpowder

    I bet the victim here wasn't gunning for Sharia Law etc

    https://twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/634764169124970498

    Bizarre and sad. I presume this has something to do with *Rotherham*.
    Yes it's very sad and horribly predictable

    As Enoch said in 'the road to national suicide', all it takes is mass immigration, a tiny percentage of bad people at either extreme, and an establishment acting as conductor by pretending there is no problem
    The incident occurred at 5 AM on a Monday, an unusual time for a random attack. It looks like they have two blokes under arrest, so likely to find out motive etc in time. It may be some completely unrelated motive, who knows at this point?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,840

    I don't want to seem awkward, but hasn't Nicola Sturgeon already bust through any glass ceiling in Scottish politics?

    Yes. And Wendy Alexander, and Joanne Lamont, and Annabelle Goldie, and Ruth Davidson in leading their respective parties.

    But clearly there's still a need to discriminate.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited August 2015
    RodCrosby said:

    Jeremy Hardy, who I saw with Spike Milligan sometime in the 70s:
    "...accused Labour of trying to "change the rules of a game during an election".
    "The Labour Party might be trying to invite a legal challenge so that they can say 'let's just scrap the election'," Mr Hardy added. "They are so desperate that I wouldn't be surprised."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34013497

    As was pointed out in an earlier thread, there is no legal challenge possible - as it is an election being run by a private club. Unless someone can find a contractual angle on it all, it is hard to see what sort of legal remedy someone might seek.
    I've seen opinion that Labour may be breaking Data Protection Laws in how they handle subjects' data.

    Using canvassing data for political purposes is not misuse of canvassing data. That is its purpose. People may make a legal challenge on that basis but they won't win and will waste their legal fees.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Generally speaking - more Parties have female leaders in Scotland, whilst Plaid and Greenies are female led too.

    I don't want to seem awkward, but hasn't Nicola Sturgeon already bust through any glass ceiling in Scottish politics?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JohnO said:

    DearPB said:

    OT All non mainstream parties have a problem with local politics. The point about UKIP Cllrs agreeing on the park gates is well made - what would a UKIP Council look like/do? They're not bound by any over-arching principles, and they're often not plausible human beings.

    Even Labour and Conservatives have a struggle finding 35 sensible people in a District/Borough to form an administration. When I was a Council Leader with 25-30 Tories in my group, if you discounted the senile, the incompetent and the dangerously right wing that left you with about 12-15 who you might allow to have any responsibility.

    We have a Group of 33 (out of 60) and I've been Council leader for over five years now. Never had that problem and the quality of the team is arguably the highest since the Borough's creation in 1974.
    Oooh! I don't realise I knew a VIP!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Charles said:

    JohnO said:

    DearPB said:

    OT All non mainstream parties have a problem with local politics. The point about UKIP Cllrs agreeing on the park gates is well made - what would a UKIP Council look like/do? They're not bound by any over-arching principles, and they're often not plausible human beings.

    Even Labour and Conservatives have a struggle finding 35 sensible people in a District/Borough to form an administration. When I was a Council Leader with 25-30 Tories in my group, if you discounted the senile, the incompetent and the dangerously right wing that left you with about 12-15 who you might allow to have any responsibility.

    We have a Group of 33 (out of 60) and I've been Council leader for over five years now. Never had that problem and the quality of the team is arguably the highest since the Borough's creation in 1974.
    Oooh! I don't realise I knew a VIP!
    PB's best candidate for a peerage, isn't that right? :D
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "A gunman has injured three people on a train between Amsterdam and Paris before being overpowered by passengers, according to French rail company SNCF.
    The incident happened on Friday afternoon near Arras in northern France and the assailant was arrested when the train stopped at the town's station.
    Reports said French actor Jean-Hugues Anglade was among those injured."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34023361?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    edited August 2015

    @Plato - I don't think it'd be possible to create a farce more absurd.

    Well they could get an Elvis impersonator to announce the result…! – just saying. :lol:

    We can't go on together, with suspicious minds.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    Male MSPs and Male former MPs must be absolutely apoplectic. She's basically reduced their chances from perhaps 17 or 18 out of SLABs 25 or so seats to 12 or 13.

    Neil Findlay must be very concerned that he won't have a reasonable List slot next year.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,443
    Plato said:

    Generally speaking - more Parties have female leaders in Scotland, whilst Plaid and Greenies are female led too.

    I don't want to seem awkward, but hasn't Nicola Sturgeon already bust through any glass ceiling in Scottish politics?

    Technically, of course, the Greens in Scotland are a separate party with a male leader - it is, as you imply, the southern Greens you're talking about. But the point is basically sound - we had Ruth Davidson and her predecessor leading the Scottish Tories, and Wendy Alexander and Johann Lamont leading Labour well before Nicola Sturgeon took over the SNP. Can't remember what the SSP did ...

    On the different matter of George Square happenings, an excellent pair of postings by LPW on the refuse lorry inquiry are well worth a look for those interested:

    http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,313

    RodCrosby said:

    Jeremy Hardy, who I saw with Spike Milligan sometime in the 70s:
    "...accused Labour of trying to "change the rules of a game during an election".
    "The Labour Party might be trying to invite a legal challenge so that they can say 'let's just scrap the election'," Mr Hardy added. "They are so desperate that I wouldn't be surprised."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34013497

    As was pointed out in an earlier thread, there is no legal challenge possible - as it is an election being run by a private club. Unless someone can find a contractual angle on it all, it is hard to see what sort of legal remedy someone might seek.
    I've seen opinion that Labour may be breaking Data Protection Laws in how they handle subjects' data.

    Using canvassing data for political purposes is not misuse of canvassing data. That is its purpose. People may make a legal challenge on that basis but they won't win and will waste their legal fees.

    Surely canvassing data is collected for purposes of getting the vote out and deciding who to doorstep further, during the general election.

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    SeanT said:

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    I hope there is an even number of candidates.

    Choosing candidates on gender is a recipe for oblivion.
    Quite. The appalling quality of the Labour leadership contenders is only going to get worse, as the deadening effect of All Women Shortlists kick in. Check some of the newbie female Labour MPs on Twitter. They are halfwits.

    We had an all women shortlist in my neighbouring constituency. She was so appalling that it made you wince. The result, a seat that would have gone labour on the 1% swing to them in England, ended up swinging against them and the Conservative tripling their majority.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341
    isam said:

    All it takes is nutters at the extremities of each side to commit acts of violence and the match is put on to the gunpowder

    I bet the victim here wasn't gunning for Sharia Law etc

    https://twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/634764169124970498

    Poor man. RIP.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    SeanT said:

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    I hope there is an even number of candidates.

    Choosing candidates on gender is a recipe for oblivion.
    Quite. The appalling quality of the Labour leadership contenders is only going to get worse, as the deadening effect of All Women Shortlists kick in. Check some of the newbie female Labour MPs on Twitter. They are halfwits.

    I sincerely hope they're better than some of the ones who've been there for a little while. Lucy Powell springs to mind.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    SeanT said:

    BREAKING NEWS: Labour leader candidate Jeremy Corbyn has denied any association with controversial hard left Labour MP, Jeremy Corbyn. In a Channel 4 interview, the 66 year old said, "No. I did not have tea with me."

    When asked why he had nonetheless spoken at an event alongside himself, Corbyn said, "I merely wanted to give me a platform I had been denied. I had no idea that I held these repugnant opinions".

    Top notch banter.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Plato said:

    Dog's breakfast doesn't even begin to cover it.

    Every bit of the process has been full of holes, rules bent, partisan decisions made about who is or isn't eligible and on and on.

    I don't think it'd be possible to create a farce more absurd.

    Plato said:

    From BBC

    The letter added: "This suggests the 121,000 registered supporters could include several thousand Tory infiltrators, as well as supporters of other parties seeking to have a vote in the election."

    I’m sure the ‘entryists’ in the literal sense of the word, are vastly outnumbered by first time Labour voters and Union affiliates for Jeremy Corbyn.

    This is all yet more nonsense from a desperate Labour candidate whose rapidly losing the plot. I doubt we’d hear a peep out of Burnham about this if he was comfortably in the lead.

    It did rather smack of Andy Burnham having seen some actual voting results - and gone "WTF?????"
    If the ERS are showing real results to candidates at this stage, then the whole thing should be called off. And the ERS disbanded.
    The problem they face is trying to determine whether someone is a convert or a mischief maker.

    And short of having McCarthy style hearings, they are going to struggle to prove it either way.

    All good fun.


    A good old fashioned 'buggers muddle'.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    calum said:

    Quite. The appalling quality of the Labour leadership contenders is only going to get worse, as the deadening effect of All Women Shortlists kick in. Check some of the newbie female Labour MPs on Twitter. They are halfwits.

    I sincerely hope they're better than some of the ones who've been there for a little while. Lucy Powell springs to mind.
    Nonsense - Lucy Powell is the best undercover operative CHQ have working for them…
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    One wonders what will be left standing https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/634794856481734656
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Paging @bigjohnowls

    Who are you voting for / did you vote for in the Deputy contest?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    SeanT said:

    BREAKING NEWS: Labour leader candidate Jeremy Corbyn has denied any association with controversial hard left Labour MP, Jeremy Corbyn. In a Channel 4 interview, the 66 year old said, "No. I did not have tea with me."
    When asked why he had nonetheless spoken at an event alongside himself, Corbyn said, "I merely wanted to give me a platform I had been denied. I had no idea that I held these repugnant opinions".

    If we are to retain our sanity I think this site needs to be renamed 'Politicalbettingexceptinganythingtodowiththelabourpartydotcom'
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The EU is going to have to set up refugee camps very soon. It can't go on like this.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/macedonia-police-fire-tear-gas-at-migrants
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2015
    Plato said:
    And people on here think she should be deputy lab leader and is one for the future

    He's right you couldn't make it up
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    AndyJS said:

    The EU is going to have to set up refugee camps very soon. It can't go on like this.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/macedonia-police-fire-tear-gas-at-migrants

    What will stop it?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.
  • Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    AQ on now Ritula Shah with Jeremy Corbyn, Dan Jones, Polly Toynbee and Elizabeth Truss.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    Macedonia is not in the EU.

    In what way would changing the structure or policies of the EU help with the migrant crisis?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    SeanT said:

    Reports the train gunman was "North African".

    Did you see the inquiry about the white driver in Scotland? Disgraceful these "whites".
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.

    It is mind boggling. FFS he crushed half a dozen people. He clearly lied about his medical condition. And today he refused to answer questions in court.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34016267

    Is they're something we're all missing? Is Scottish justice that different, that feeble?
    There are times when 'crimes' fall in the gaps between laws. This is particularly true when, as in most cases, there is not a single point of failure, but a series of failures that led to the incident.

    However, I would have thought the HSE (or Scottish equivalent) would have taken a firm interest. There seem several people/organisations who might be at fault in this case, perhaps including both his current and previous employers.

    As an aside, there was the case where a preserved but unairworthy Victor took off at Buntingfield five or so years ago. This could very nearly have been a catastrophe, for the people inside as well as anyone on the ground, yet because it was not an aircraft - it was not registered with the authorities - and was not any other sort of vehicle (AIUI) they were not prosecuted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2YSzBdWFg

    Lucky, lucky, lucky.

    On which note, I should be at the Little Gransden airshow next weekend:
    http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/flying.php
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,744
    It is difficult to make up, here's 'poets for Corbyn' - possibly the only poetry anthology William McGonagall would've improved.

    http://www.berfrois.com/uploads/2015/08/poets_for_corybn_v2_cover3.pdf
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    AndyJS said:

    "A gunman has injured three people on a train between Amsterdam and Paris before being overpowered by passengers, according to French rail company SNCF.
    The incident happened on Friday afternoon near Arras in northern France and the assailant was arrested when the train stopped at the town's station.
    Reports said French actor Jean-Hugues Anglade was among those injured."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34023361?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

    Will Corbyn be forced into a comment comparing the actions of the US military v the actions of a man of north African appearance?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ms Truss being very careful "Jeremy is a man of principles - I just don't agree with most of them"
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited August 2015
    £28.972581

    How low can Brent go? And who is to fund the Jockanese in such hard times...?

    :serious-point:

    In real-term prices, this must be approaching the nadir after GW1: Given inflation since 1992 I would guesstimate that a barrel of Brent is at £8 given 1992 constant-prices.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Dair said:

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    Male MSPs and Male former MPs must be absolutely apoplectic. She's basically reduced their chances from perhaps 17 or 18 out of SLABs 25 or so seats to 12 or 13.

    Neil Findlay must be very concerned that he won't have a reasonable List slot next year.
    Indeed, assuming Findlay is staying on the Lothian List, Kezia is guaranteed 1st place as she is the SLAB leader. As SLAB seem to have around 10,000 fully paid up members who will determine the list positions at a regional level, Findlay's union buddies will no doubt boost up the Lothian membership to help him out.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    AQ is in Let's All Be Paid £1m each as the public services deserve it. I can't listen to it any longer
  • £28.972581

    Bennies for all...?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    RodCrosby said:

    Jeremy Hardy, who I saw with Spike Milligan sometime in the 70s:
    "...accused Labour of trying to "change the rules of a game during an election".
    "The Labour Party might be trying to invite a legal challenge so that they can say 'let's just scrap the election'," Mr Hardy added. "They are so desperate that I wouldn't be surprised."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34013497

    As was pointed out in an earlier thread, there is no legal challenge possible - as it is an election being run by a private club. Unless someone can find a contractual angle on it all, it is hard to see what sort of legal remedy someone might seek.
    I've seen opinion that Labour may be breaking Data Protection Laws in how they handle subjects' data.

    Using canvassing data for political purposes is not misuse of canvassing data. That is its purpose. People may make a legal challenge on that basis but they won't win and will waste their legal fees.

    The only significant party led by a straight white man is the Liberals.
  • Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    Macedonia is not in the EU.

    In what way would changing the structure or policies of the EU help with the migrant crisis?
    Macedonia is on the route to Europe where they all want to go. The EU and member Countries need to deal with this. They just keep coming and increasing by the tens of thousands. Are you really suggesting we all close our eyes and walk on the other side.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    I was reading today how one of the police officers was stabbed by a migrant. It seems entirely appropriate that Macedonia police their border and deport people they catch back to the first safe conutry, where the asylum seekers are supposed to claim.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Dair said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Jeremy Hardy, who I saw with Spike Milligan sometime in the 70s:
    "...accused Labour of trying to "change the rules of a game during an election".
    "The Labour Party might be trying to invite a legal challenge so that they can say 'let's just scrap the election'," Mr Hardy added. "They are so desperate that I wouldn't be surprised."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34013497

    As was pointed out in an earlier thread, there is no legal challenge possible - as it is an election being run by a private club. Unless someone can find a contractual angle on it all, it is hard to see what sort of legal remedy someone might seek.
    I've seen opinion that Labour may be breaking Data Protection Laws in how they handle subjects' data.

    Using canvassing data for political purposes is not misuse of canvassing data. That is its purpose. People may make a legal challenge on that basis but they won't win and will waste their legal fees.

    The only significant party led by a straight white man is the Liberals.
    Call me Dave is totally fabulous!
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited August 2015
    This site has new topics/posts disappearing as fast as a Jihadist's bennies traversing to ISIS: Is HB minding the shop again...?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Jeremy Hardy, who I saw with Spike Milligan sometime in the 70s:
    "...accused Labour of trying to "change the rules of a game during an election".
    "The Labour Party might be trying to invite a legal challenge so that they can say 'let's just scrap the election'," Mr Hardy added. "They are so desperate that I wouldn't be surprised."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34013497

    As was pointed out in an earlier thread, there is no legal challenge possible - as it is an election being run by a private club. Unless someone can find a contractual angle on it all, it is hard to see what sort of legal remedy someone might seek.
    I've seen opinion that Labour may be breaking Data Protection Laws in how they handle subjects' data.

    Using canvassing data for political purposes is not misuse of canvassing data. That is its purpose. People may make a legal challenge on that basis but they won't win and will waste their legal fees.

    The only significant party led by a straight white man is the Liberals.
    You do realise that Sam Cameron isn't *actually* a man?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.

    It is mind boggling. FFS he crushed half a dozen people. He clearly lied about his medical condition. And today he refused to answer questions in court.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34016267

    Is they're something we're all missing? Is Scottish justice that different, that feeble?
    There are times when 'crimes' fall in the gaps between laws. This is particularly true when, as in most cases, there is not a single point of failure, but a series of failures that led to the incident.

    However, I would have thought the HSE (or Scottish equivalent) would have taken a firm interest. There seem several people/organisations who might be at fault in this case, perhaps including both his current and previous employers.

    As an aside, there was the case where a preserved but unairworthy Victor took off at Buntingfield five or so years ago. This could very nearly have been a catastrophe, for the people inside as well as anyone on the ground, yet because it was not an aircraft - it was not registered with the authorities - and was not any other sort of vehicle (AIUI) they were not prosecuted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2YSzBdWFg

    Lucky, lucky, lucky.

    On which note, I should be at the Little Gransden airshow next weekend:
    http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/flying.php
    I feel sorry for the families of the victims. They are not getting justice. If this was my sister, wife, dad, daughter, who died, I'd want to see a trial. Who wouldn't?

    No wonder relatives stormed out of the inquiry today.
    I generally agree. An interesting - and perhaps similar - case would be that of Gary Hart who caused the Great Heck rail crash. He caused the crash, but had absolutely no intention to do so - because he vastly overestimating his own abilities in driving after lack of sleep.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heck_rail_crash

    In this case, he caused ten deaths, and got a five year sentence. I had a great deal of sympathy with Hart before the trial - who has not overestimated their abilities and got away with it?. This changed during the trial, because of his utter lack of belief that he did anything wrong. A trait he appears to share with the Glasgow driver.

    I would like to think that, if I cause deaths by a similar lack of care, I would out my hands up to it and apologise. But I hope I'm never tested on that.

    I'm also slightly surprised that the driver was not prosecuted. However if he was to be prosecuted, that should not hide any failings by others involved, for instance his current and ex employers.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Jeremy Hardy, who I saw with Spike Milligan sometime in the 70s:
    "...accused Labour of trying to "change the rules of a game during an election".
    "The Labour Party might be trying to invite a legal challenge so that they can say 'let's just scrap the election'," Mr Hardy added. "They are so desperate that I wouldn't be surprised."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34013497

    As was pointed out in an earlier thread, there is no legal challenge possible - as it is an election being run by a private club. Unless someone can find a contractual angle on it all, it is hard to see what sort of legal remedy someone might seek.
    I've seen opinion that Labour may be breaking Data Protection Laws in how they handle subjects' data.

    Using canvassing data for political purposes is not misuse of canvassing data. That is its purpose. People may make a legal challenge on that basis but they won't win and will waste their legal fees.

    The only significant party led by a straight white man is the Liberals.
    You do realise that Sam Cameron isn't *actually* a man?
    Dair just has a big crush on Dave....
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    SeanT said:

    Reports now that one of the heroic soldiers on the train was a Brit.

    He probably got there first, and the yanks were taking the credit. Not for the first time in mainland Europe...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    Macedonia is not in the EU.

    In what way would changing the structure or policies of the EU help with the migrant crisis?
    Macedonia is on the route to Europe where they all want to go. The EU and member Countries need to deal with this. They just keep coming and increasing by the tens of thousands. Are you really suggesting we all close our eyes and walk on the other side.
    That is quite a different emphasis. The migrant crisis was not created by the EU (the primary blame should fall on the muslims of the middle east who delight in killing their fellow citizens), but it is worth addressing the issue via a collective response rather than as 28 individual countries.

    This is a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions. There are no easy answers and I think that the Syrians and Eritreans are likely to be genuine refugees. The Assad regime appears to be crumbling and when it finally collapses there will be a further wave. Possibly following that the Christians, Shiites and Druze of Lebanon will feel the force of IS and form another wave.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2015
    If the oil price continues to drop we may get 140 million Russians trying to move to western Europe. Life was already pretty bad for the average Russian when prices were over $100.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.

    It is mind boggling. FFS he crushed half a dozen people. He clearly lied about his medical condition. And today he refused to answer questions in court.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34016267

    Is they're something we're all missing? Is Scottish justice that different, that feeble?
    There are times when 'crimes' fall in the gaps between laws. This is particularly true when, as in most cases, there is not a single point of failure, but a series of failures that led to the incident.

    However, I would have thought the HSE (or Scottish equivalent) would have taken a firm interest. There seem several people/organisations who might be at fault in this case, perhaps including both his current and previous employers.

    As an aside, there was the case where a preserved but unairworthy Victor took off at Buntingfield five or so years ago. This could very nearly have been a catastrophe, for the people inside as well as anyone on the ground, yet because it was not an aircraft - it was not registered with the authorities - and was not any other sort of vehicle (AIUI) they were not prosecuted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2YSzBdWFg

    Lucky, lucky, lucky.

    On which note, I should be at the Little Gransden airshow next weekend:
    http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/flying.php
    Talking of airshows, Mr. J., I was thinking seriously about the Duxford BoB show on 19/20 September. Might you be tempted?
  • SeanT said:

    Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    Macedonia is not in the EU.

    In what way would changing the structure or policies of the EU help with the migrant crisis?
    Macedonia is on the route to Europe where they all want to go. The EU and member Countries need to deal with this. They just keep coming and increasing by the tens of thousands. Are you really suggesting we all close our eyes and walk on the other side.
    What do you suggest? We can't let them all in. The only answer in the end is the tough Australian approach. We will just send you back. No matter how hard you try, or how sad your story, we will just send you back. We will also sink the boats and jail the traffickers for 40 years. Eventually they will stop coming.

    This must be married with a very generous attitude to aid for the nations whence they come.

    There are potentially, at least, 200m million Africans and Arabs who would love to live in Europe. If we let them all in Europe would be destroyed.

    Absolutely agree but at the same time the point I am making is that the EU must invest in proper controls and to send back the many who are not entitled to come to Europe. The immediate problem is that by Macedonia closing their borders the problem reverts back on Greece who are in no position to deal with the numbers and that is why it is an EU problem. As far as the UK is concerned we are full but where there are genuine refugees particularly women and children some should be allowed into the UK but how you restrict this number will be difficult but it should be discussed by all the member states of the EU as a priority
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.

    It is mind boggling. FFS he crushed half a dozen people. He clearly lied about his medical condition. And today he refused to answer questions in court.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34016267

    Is they're something we're all missing? Is Scottish justice that different, that feeble?
    There are times when 'crimes' fall in the gaps between laws. This is particularly true when, as in most cases, there is not a single point of failure, but a series of failures that led to the incident.

    However, I would have thought the HSE (or Scottish equivalent) would have taken a firm interest. There seem several people/organisations who might be at fault in this case, perhaps including both his current and previous employers.

    As an aside, there was the case where a preserved but unairworthy Victor took off at Buntingfield five or so years ago. This could very nearly have been a catastrophe, for the people inside as well as anyone on the ground, yet because it was not an aircraft - it was not registered with the authorities - and was not any other sort of vehicle (AIUI) they were not prosecuted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2YSzBdWFg

    Lucky, lucky, lucky.

    On which note, I should be at the Little Gransden airshow next weekend:
    http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/flying.php
    Talking of airshows, Mr. J., I was thinking seriously about the Duxford BoB show on 19/20 September. Might you be tempted?
    I might, although Duxford airshows are best seen from a friend's back garden, which is somewhat worryingly on the approach path. Along with a barbecue and copious beer ;)

    That's the BoB anniversay one isn't it? If so, I might put aside from dislike of crowds long enoguh to attend, particularly in the company of someone who is interested in history, London, politics and llamas ...
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Absolutely agree but at the same time the point I am making is that the EU must invest in proper controls and to send back the many who are not entitled to come to Europe. The immediate problem is that by Macedonia closing their borders the problem reverts back on Greece who are in no position to deal with the numbers and that is why it is an EU problem. As far as the UK is concerned we are full but where there are genuine refugees particularly women and children some should be allowed into the UK but how you restrict this number will be difficult but it should be discussed by all the member states of the EU as a priority

    I'd be comfortable with restricting asylum seekers to religious minorities in warzones who can not travel to another part of their own country: Syrian Yazidis and Christians, for example.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Plato said:
    I don't understand the point of asking for gender. Asking for their preferred mode of address should be enough. And it is true that transgender people, however few in numbers they may be, find this kind of thing unnecessarily insulting.
  • JEO said:

    Absolutely agree but at the same time the point I am making is that the EU must invest in proper controls and to send back the many who are not entitled to come to Europe. The immediate problem is that by Macedonia closing their borders the problem reverts back on Greece who are in no position to deal with the numbers and that is why it is an EU problem. As far as the UK is concerned we are full but where there are genuine refugees particularly women and children some should be allowed into the UK but how you restrict this number will be difficult but it should be discussed by all the member states of the EU as a priority

    I'd be comfortable with restricting asylum seekers to religious minorities in warzones who can not travel to another part of their own country: Syrian Yazidis and Christians, for example.
    I would agree with that but no one in the EU is taking in this humanity disaster. The EU like the UN is not fit for purpose
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.

    It is mind boggling. FFS he crushed half a dozen people. He clearly lied about his medical condition. And today he refused to answer questions in court.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34016267

    Is they're something we're all missing? Is Scottish justice that different, that feeble?
    There are times when 'crimes' fall in the gaps between laws. This is particularly true when, as in most cases, there is not a single point of failure, but a series of failures that led to the incident.

    However, I would have thought the HSE (or Scottish equivalent) would have taken a firm interest. There seem several people/organisations who might be at fault in this case, perhaps including both his current and previous employers.

    As an aside, there was the case where a preserved but unairworthy Victor took off at Buntingfield five or so years ago. This could very nearly have been a catastrophe, for the people inside as well as anyone on the ground, yet because it was not an aircraft - it was not registered with the authorities - and was not any other sort of vehicle (AIUI) they were not prosecuted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2YSzBdWFg

    Lucky, lucky, lucky.

    On which note, I should be at the Little Gransden airshow next weekend:
    http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/flying.php
    Talking of airshows, Mr. J., I was thinking seriously about the Duxford BoB show on 19/20 September. Might you be tempted?
    I might, although Duxford airshows are best seen from a friend's back garden, which is somewhat worryingly on the approach path. Along with a barbecue and copious beer ;)

    That's the BoB anniversay one isn't it? If so, I might put aside from dislike of crowds long enoguh to attend, particularly in the company of someone who is interested in history, London, politics and llamas ...
    I hoped you might say that. Should be a good day out and even if the weather is crap there are enough under cover exhibits to visit in between beers. Once I have confirmed permission from Herself (she will worry about me getting back across London on my own after dark) I'll drop you a PM.

    Any other PBers fancy a PBMeet with a twist?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.

    It is mind boggling. FFS he crushed half a dozen people. He clearly lied about his medical condition. And today he refused to answer questions in court.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34016267

    Is they're something we're all missing? Is Scottish justice that different, that feeble?
    There are times when 'crimes' fall in the gaps between laws. This is particularly true when, as in most cases, there is not a single point of failure, but a series of failures that led to the incident.

    However, I would have thought the HSE (or Scottish equivalent) would have taken a firm interest. There seem several people/organisations who might be at fault in this case, perhaps including both his current and previous employers.

    As an aside, there was the case where a preserved but unairworthy Victor took off at Buntingfield five or so years ago. This could very nearly have been a catastrophe, for the people inside as well as anyone on the ground, yet because it was not an aircraft - it was not registered with the authorities - and was not any other sort of vehicle (AIUI) they were not prosecuted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2YSzBdWFg

    Lucky, lucky, lucky.

    On which note, I should be at the Little Gransden airshow next weekend:
    http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/flying.php
    Talking of airshows, Mr. J., I was thinking seriously about the Duxford BoB show on 19/20 September. Might you be tempted?
    I might, although Duxford airshows are best seen from a friend's back garden, which is somewhat worryingly on the approach path. Along with a barbecue and copious beer ;)

    That's the BoB anniversay one isn't it? If so, I might put aside from dislike of crowds long enoguh to attend, particularly in the company of someone who is interested in history, London, politics and llamas ...
    I hoped you might say that. Should be a good day out and even if the weather is crap there are enough under cover exhibits to visit in between beers. Once I have confirmed permission from Herself (she will worry about me getting back across London on my own after dark) I'll drop you a PM.

    Any other PBers fancy a PBMeet with a twist?
    A twist, a spiral, a loop, a little formation flying, and maybe an English bunt?

    I'll need permission from my good wife as well, but that should not be a problem. She's very compliant in my (ahem) injured state ... ;)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,259
    If only Macedonia wasn't in the EU they wouldn't have this refugee problem...
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    Plato said:
    I don't understand the point of asking for gender. Asking for their preferred mode of address should be enough. And it is true that transgender people, however few in numbers they may be, find this kind of thing unnecessarily insulting.
    Surely if gender is a spectrum they can just select the one that applies the most or is nearest to their chosen identity. And if their chosen identity is equally apart from both options just choose arbitrarily?
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    I think the Daily Mail need to reset their front page:

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/634817679652687872
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,744
    SeanT said:

    MJW said:

    It is difficult to make up, here's 'poets for Corbyn' - possibly the only poetry anthology William McGonagall would've improved.

    http://www.berfrois.com/uploads/2015/08/poets_for_corybn_v2_cover3.pdf

    Fuck me, that's brilliantly bad. Weirdly, I was with two poet friends on Wednesday night - and both were Corbynista.

    I love some of the stanzas in that collection:

    with a common

    defence policy

    foreign policy

    Beautiful. I particularly like the way the writer indented lines 2 and 3, so you know it's poetry, and not some hideously embarrassing sixth form wibbling.
    There's almost certainly a cringey comedy in 'radical' poets. Living in Liverpool recently for work had a local which generally had extremely good bands on (at least those topping the bill), but occasionally you'd get someone who thought it was a good idea to do spoken word poetry. I'm sure you can imagine that it wasn't unlike that particular tome but with more interminable pauses. A particular nadir which had the barmaid and I almost in fits was a 15 minute poem (with an interval!) which went through the name of every notable Pope from the 5th century to the present day. It would've been impressive, but the entire point of the exercise appeared to be to make the vague and slightly repetitive point that the 'performer' didn't much like religion. It even had a chorus which rhymed 'Pope' with 'Hide all your dope'.

    On that particular collection - it's the unmetrical in praise of the unelectable. 'Coat' is IMHO the most glaringly awful, while 'Austerity' the most Sixth-former.



  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Plato said:
    I don't understand the point of asking for gender. Asking for their preferred mode of address should be enough. And it is true that transgender people, however few in numbers they may be, find this kind of thing unnecessarily insulting.
    Reminds me of this:

    "I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding."
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    calum said:

    Following on from Kezia's announcement that she's proposing to make it a legal requirement that Holyrood has a 50 - 50 gender balance, she's today announced that 50% of the new SLAB candidates are going to be female:

    https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/634772041292316672

    I cannot see an easy system of enforcing that.

    It is a noble aspiration. But I don't think legally enforceable quotas are the way to achieve it.

    Having said that, she is never going to be in a position to implement it, so we needn't worry.
    Given that it's up to the electorate who they vote for, regardless of which candidates the parties present, it's tricky to see a way to make the makeup of parliament legally enforceable. Constituency seats where all candidates have to be female, perhaps. And/or letting people through from the list on a gender-balancing basis.

    What I take particular exception to is "at least 50%". If a 60/40 split is bad one way, because it is considered unfair or unrepresentative, then it is bad t'other way too.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    I wish our immediate neighbour was Macedonia rather than France. They seem to at least enforce border control and the rule of law properly.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515
    MJW said:

    SeanT said:

    MJW said:

    It is difficult to make up, here's 'poets for Corbyn' - possibly the only poetry anthology William McGonagall would've improved.

    http://www.berfrois.com/uploads/2015/08/poets_for_corybn_v2_cover3.pdf

    Fuck me, that's brilliantly bad. Weirdly, I was with two poet friends on Wednesday night - and both were Corbynista.

    I love some of the stanzas in that collection:

    with a common

    defence policy

    foreign policy

    Beautiful. I particularly like the way the writer indented lines 2 and 3, so you know it's poetry, and not some hideously embarrassing sixth form wibbling.
    There's almost certainly a cringey comedy in 'radical' poets. Living in Liverpool recently for work had a local which generally had extremely good bands on (at least those topping the bill), but occasionally you'd get someone who thought it was a good idea to do spoken word poetry. I'm sure you can imagine that it wasn't unlike that particular tome but with more interminable pauses. A particular nadir which had the barmaid and I almost in fits was a 15 minute poem (with an interval!) which went through the name of every notable Pope from the 5th century to the present day. It would've been impressive, but the entire point of the exercise appeared to be to make the vague and slightly repetitive point that the 'performer' didn't much like religion. It even had a chorus which rhymed 'Pope' with 'Hide all your dope'.

    On that particular collection - it's the unmetrical in praise of the unelectable. 'Coat' is IMHO the most glaringly awful, while 'Austerity' the most Sixth-former.
    A friend of ours is Irish, and is into performance poetry - he stands up on stage, someone gives him a topic, and he either invents, or recites, a poem on the topic. It;s very much like the improvised comedic routine, except he doesn't mean it to be comedic.

    He's the only Irishman I've ever known who cannot spin a yarn.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    Well quite. It's easy, tick the box that you define as. Whatever your genitals are right now.
    JEO said:

    Plato said:
    I don't understand the point of asking for gender. Asking for their preferred mode of address should be enough. And it is true that transgender people, however few in numbers they may be, find this kind of thing unnecessarily insulting.
    Reminds me of this:

    "I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding."
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    There's little that makes me inwardly groan more than performance poetry

    MJW said:

    SeanT said:

    MJW said:

    It is difficult to make up, here's 'poets for Corbyn' - possibly the only poetry anthology William McGonagall would've improved.

    http://www.berfrois.com/uploads/2015/08/poets_for_corybn_v2_cover3.pdf

    Fuck me, that's brilliantly bad. Weirdly, I was with two poet friends on Wednesday night - and both were Corbynista.

    I love some of the stanzas in that collection:

    with a common

    defence policy

    foreign policy

    Beautiful. I particularly like the way the writer indented lines 2 and 3, so you know it's poetry, and not some hideously embarrassing sixth form wibbling.
    There's almost certainly a cringey comedy in 'radical' poets. Living in Liverpool recently for work had a local which generally had extremely good bands on (at least those topping the bill), but occasionally you'd get someone who thought it was a good idea to do spoken word poetry. I'm sure you can imagine that it wasn't unlike that particular tome but with more interminable pauses. A particular nadir which had the barmaid and I almost in fits was a 15 minute poem (with an interval!) which went through the name of every notable Pope from the 5th century to the present day. It would've been impressive, but the entire point of the exercise appeared to be to make the vague and slightly repetitive point that the 'performer' didn't much like religion. It even had a chorus which rhymed 'Pope' with 'Hide all your dope'.

    On that particular collection - it's the unmetrical in praise of the unelectable. 'Coat' is IMHO the most glaringly awful, while 'Austerity' the most Sixth-former.
    A friend of ours is Irish, and is into performance poetry - he stands up on stage, someone gives him a topic, and he either invents, or recites, a poem on the topic. It;s very much like the improvised comedic routine, except he doesn't mean it to be comedic.

    He's the only Irishman I've ever known who cannot spin a yarn.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Plato said:
    and so it keeps coming. Let's hope it is all not too late.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    To be fair, some people find it difficult to self-identify on one side or the other. It's no good somebody on the outside telling them how easy their internal struggles are. Is there endless unintentionally funny nonsense spouted by genderqueer groups about how society discriminates against them? Sure. Have I walked a mile in their shoes? No.

    If I thought that the information collected was somehow useful then you could have a meaningful debate about whether causing a (not necessarily small amount of) discomfort to a (very) small number of people, outweighed the benefits of collecting the data. Perhaps I am missing something, but I can't see the use of the gender box - like I said, form of address seems to answer the more pertinent questions - so it does seem an unnecessary infliction.
    Plato said:

    Well quite. It's easy, tick the box that you define as. Whatever your genitals are right now.

    JEO said:

    Plato said:
    I don't understand the point of asking for gender. Asking for their preferred mode of address should be enough. And it is true that transgender people, however few in numbers they may be, find this kind of thing unnecessarily insulting.
    Reminds me of this:

    "I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited August 2015
    Plato said:

    htps://twitter.com/A_Liberty_Rebel/status/634684709608493056

    Corbyn actually comes across as more reasonable than the chap from the Guardian at the beginning, quite frankly, for all I don't agree with his core premise. Corbyn seems to be calling for negotiation and implying we'd be better off without the place, that chap seems actively offended by our presence there. (Corbyn may believe the same for all I know, but it wasn't as obvious if he does think that)

    The problem I have with his argument, and the pretensions of the Argentines, is this idea that by refusing to negotiate we are the ones ratcheting up tensions, or 'upping the ante' as he terms it - when really all we're doing is not, at present and I hope in future, changing our position to suit them. If they respond aggressively to escalate as a result of that, thankfully only with words these days, that is purely their choice, not ours, it is not our fault or responsibility if the other party respond inappropriately because we refuse to engage with them, even if them getting angry about it is perfectly reasonable, diplomatically.

    It's the same problem as with his automatic 'talk not war' position, which naturally most people support as a starting position, but which isn't always viable. If our position and the Argentine position are impossible to reconcile, there's no point sitting down to talk about it. We are both entitled to be stubborn and see who will bend first. If either side responds with aggression, then they are morally more dubious and can hardly protest, sincerely, that we regard them as forfeiting any expectation we will modulate our position first to accommodate them.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,744
    On the Corbyn poets, from 'Jeremy Corbyn' one can form the anagram: Je, Mercy Byron.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2015

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    It still astonishes me that the Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute the bin lorry driver. Thank goodness for the option of being able to bring a private prosecution.

    It is mind boggling. FFS he crushed half a dozen people. He clearly lied about his medical condition. And today he refused to answer questions in court.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34016267

    Is they're something we're all missing? Is Scottish justice that different, that feeble?
    There are times when 'crimes' fall in the gaps between laws. This is particularly true when, as in most cases, there is not a single point of failure, but a series of failures that led to the incident.

    However, I would have thought the HSE (or Scottish equivalent) would have taken a firm interest. There seem several people/organisations who might be at fault in this case, perhaps including both his current and previous employers.

    As an aside, there was

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2YSzBdWFg

    Lucky, lucky, lucky.

    On which note, I should be at the Little Gransden airshow next weekend:
    http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/flying.php
    Talking of airshows, Mr. J., I was thinking seriously about the Duxford BoB show on 19/20 September. Might you be tempted?
    I might, although Duxford airshows are best seen from a friend's back garden, which is somewhat worryingly on the approach path. Along with a barbecue and copious beer ;)

    That's the BoB anniversay one isn't it? If so, I might put aside from dislike of crowds long enoguh to attend, particularly in the company of someone who is interested in history, London, politics and llamas ...
    I hoped you might say that. Should be a good day out and even if the weather is crap there are enough under cover exhibits to visit in between beers. Once I have confirmed permission from Herself (she will worry about me getting back across London on my own after dark) I'll drop you a PM.

    Any other PBers fancy a PBMeet with a twist?
    I am moderately tempted (Leicester are away that weekend) though it is also the Southampton Boat show and Bournmouth LD conference and I was considering doing the south coast double.

    Very likely that the LD conference will be overshadowed by the outcome of the Lab leadership and planning for the knife fight that will be the Labour conference whatever the winner.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,840
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    htps://twitter.com/A_Liberty_Rebel/status/634684709608493056

    Corbyn actually comes across as more reasonable than the chap from the Guardian at the beginning, quite frankly, for all I don't agree with his core premise. Corbyn seems to be calling for negotiation and implying we'd be better off without the place, that chap seems actively offended by our presence there. (Corbyn may believe the same for all I know, but it wasn't as obvious if he does think that)

    The problem I have with his argument, and the pretensions of the Argentines, is this idea that by refusing to negotiate we are the ones ratcheting up tensions, or 'upping the ante' as he terms it - when really all we're doing is not, at present and I hope in future, changing our position to suit them. If they respond aggressively to escalate as a result of that, thankfully only with words these days, that is purely their choice, not ours, it is not our fault or responsibility if the other party respond inappropriately because we refuse to engage with them, even if them getting angry about it is perfectly reasonable, diplomatically.

    It's the same problem as with his automatic 'talk not war' position, which naturally most people support as a starting position, but which isn't always viable. If our position and the Argentine position are impossible to reconcile, there's no point sitting down to talk about it. We are both entitled to be stubborn and see who will bend first. If either side responds with aggression, then they are morally more dubious and can hardly protest, sincerely, that we regard them as forfeiting any expectation we will modulate our position first to accommodate them.
    Indeed. Presumably he would have been delighted with the outcome of Munich and would have called for a new dialogue over Poland and Danzig.
  • Brave and polite, a radical soul
    Jezza believes in coal not dole
    He'll embrace as comrades murderers and villains
    Just as long as they are anti-Americans

    Boom, boom
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,684
    SeanT said:

    Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    Macedonia is not in the EU.

    In what way would changing the structure or policies of the EU help with the migrant crisis?
    Macedonia is on the route to Europe where they all want to go. The EU and member Countries need to deal with this. They just keep coming and increasing by the tens of thousands. Are you really suggesting we all close our eyes and walk on the other side.
    What do you suggest? We can't let them all in. The only answer in the end is the tough Australian approach. We will just send you back. No matter how hard you try, or how sad your story, we will just send you back. We will also sink the boats and jail the traffickers for 40 years. Eventually they will stop coming.

    This must be married with a very generous attitude to aid for the nations whence they come.

    There are potentially, at least, 200m million Africans and Arabs who would love to live in Europe. If we let them all in Europe would be destroyed.

    I don't think we can sink the boats and deliberately allow thousands of people to drown.

    What we can do is tow the boats back into the waters from which they came. The number of ports on the North African coast is quite limited. With a small investment (100m or so) spread between pretty much all European (not just EU) countries, we can have a system where refugee boats that enter Italian or Greek waters are returned to their port of departure.

    Anything which makes it more expensive and difficult to cross, will reduce the numbers doing it. A naval operation of this type would seem by far the best option.

    We also need to clamp down on employment illegal immigrants in the UK; and we need to ask ourselves what we can do stop people fleeing Eritrea, Libya and Syria. Maybe Tony Blair should offer to self immolate in Damascus on 1 December. I reckon millions of people would stick around in the region to see that. Plus, it would be the first time he did anything genuinely useful as an ex "Middle East Peace Envoy".
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    *claps*

    Brave and polite, a radical soul
    Jezza believes in coal not dole
    He'll embrace as comrades murderers and villains
    Just as long as they are anti-Americans

    Boom, boom

  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    htps://twitter.com/A_Liberty_Rebel/status/634684709608493056

    Corbyn actually comes across as more reasonable than the chap from the Guardian at the beginning, quite frankly, for all I don't agree with his core premise. Corbyn seems to be calling for negotiation and implying we'd be better off without the place, that chap seems actively offended by our presence there. (Corbyn may believe the same for all I know, but it wasn't as obvious if he does think that)

    The problem I have with his argument, and the pretensions of the Argentines, is this idea that by refusing to negotiate we are the ones ratcheting up tensions, or 'upping the ante' as he terms it - when really all we're doing is not, at present and I hope in future, changing our position to suit them. If they respond aggressively to escalate as a result of that, thankfully only with words these days, that is purely their choice, not ours, it is not our fault or responsibility if the other party respond inappropriately because we refuse to engage with them, even if them getting angry about it is perfectly reasonable, diplomatically.

    It's the same problem as with his automatic 'talk not war' position, which naturally most people support as a starting position, but which isn't always viable. If our position and the Argentine position are impossible to reconcile, there's no point sitting down to talk about it. We are both entitled to be stubborn and see who will bend first. If either side responds with aggression, then they are morally more dubious and can hardly protest, sincerely, that we regard them as forfeiting any expectation we will modulate our position first to accommodate them.
    Indeed. Presumably he would have been delighted with the outcome of Munich and would have called for a new dialogue over Poland and Danzig.
    Which of course were handed over in the end to Soviet domination, so for all they knew in '39, it made little difference to fight...
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    SeanT said:

    Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    Macedonia is not in the EU.

    In what way would changing the structure or policies of the EU help with the migrant crisis?
    Macedonia is on the route to Europe where they all want to go. The EU and member Countries need to deal with this. They just keep coming and increasing by the tens of thousands. Are you really suggesting we all close our eyes and walk on the other side.
    What do you suggest? We can't let them all in. The only answer in the end is the tough Australian approach. We will just send you back. No matter how hard you try, or how sad your story, we will just send you back. We will also sink the boats and jail the traffickers for 40 years. Eventually they will stop coming.
    This must be married with a very generous attitude to aid for the nations whence they come.
    There are potentially, at least, 200m million Africans and Arabs who would love to live in Europe. If we let them all in Europe would be destroyed.
    The fact that your point is simple and succinct does not make it any less wrong. Just because the EU or whatever exist or does not exist does not remove the inevitable requirement to control outside immigration.
    Its noble to take in asylum seekers who might otherwise die. And in easy times of plenty you can be er... liberal with how that is interpreted. But otherwise economic migration is a totally different issue.
    Even in the short term (never mind medium or long), to be overgenerous is to turn a blind eye to the problems and dire issues which are causing the exodus. The problems of democracy progress and economic improvement in all these migrant areas need to be faced. We do nobody - absolutely nobody anywhere - any favours by allowing economic migrants easy access. We need to turn our attention a lot further away.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    EPG said:

    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    htps://twitter.com/A_Liberty_Rebel/status/634684709608493056

    Corbyn actually comes across as more reasonable than the chap from the Guardian at the beginning, quite frankly, for all I don't agree with his core premise. Corbyn seems to be calling for negotiation and implying we'd be better off without the place, that chap seems actively offended by our presence there. (Corbyn may believe the same for all I know, but it wasn't as obvious if he does think that)

    The problem I have with his argument, and the pretensions of the Argentines, is this idea that by refusing to negotiate we are the ones ratcheting up tensions, or 'upping the ante' as he terms it - when really all we're doing is not, at present and I hope in future, changing our position to suit them. If they respond aggressively to escalate as a result of that, thankfully only with words these days, that is purely their choice, not ours, it is not our fault or responsibility if the other party respond inappropriately because we refuse to engage with them, even if them getting angry about it is perfectly reasonable, diplomatically.

    It's the same problem as with his automatic 'talk not war' position, which naturally most people support as a starting position, but which isn't always viable. If our position and the Argentine position are impossible to reconcile, there's no point sitting down to talk about it. We are both entitled to be stubborn and see who will bend first. If either side responds with aggression, then they are morally more dubious and can hardly protest, sincerely, that we regard them as forfeiting any expectation we will modulate our position first to accommodate them.
    Indeed. Presumably he would have been delighted with the outcome of Munich and would have called for a new dialogue over Poland and Danzig.
    Which of course were handed over in the end to Soviet domination, so for all they knew in '39, it made little difference to fight...
    Reminds me of Yes Prime Minister.

    "We should always fight for the weak against the strong!"

    "The why aren't we fighting in x against the Russians?" [was it a reference to Afhanistan? I cannot recall]

    "The Russians are too strong"
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Irrespective of your views of the EU can anyone accept the dreadful situation in Macedonia and how can the EU and the United Nations continue to turn a blind eye. The leaders of the EU and the UN should be ashamed, get back from their holidays, and take immediate action to stop the suffering of these men, women and children. It sums up the absolute uselessness of the EU as an organisation.

    Macedonia is not in the EU.

    In what way would changing the structure or policies of the EU help with the migrant crisis?
    Macedonia is on the route to Europe where they all want to go. The EU and member Countries need to deal with this. They just keep coming and increasing by the tens of thousands. Are you really suggesting we all close our eyes and walk on the other side.
    What do you suggest? We can't let them all in. The only answer in the end is the tough Australian approach. We will just send you back. No matter how hard you try, or how sad your story, we will just send you back. We will also sink the boats and jail the traffickers for 40 years. Eventually they will stop coming.

    This must be married with a very generous attitude to aid for the nations whence they come.

    There are potentially, at least, 200m million Africans and Arabs who would love to live in Europe. If we let them all in Europe would be destroyed.

    I don't think we can sink the boats and deliberately allow thousands of people to drown.

    What we can do is tow the boats back into the waters from which they came. The number of ports on the North African coast is quite limited. With a small investment (100m or so) spread between pretty much all European (not just EU) countries, we can have a system where refugee boats that enter Italian or Greek waters are returned to their port of departure.

    Anything which makes it more expensive and difficult to cross, will reduce the numbers doing it. A naval operation of this type would seem by far the best option.

    We also need to clamp down on employment illegal immigrants in the UK; and we need to ask ourselves what we can do stop people fleeing Eritrea, Libya and Syria. Maybe Tony Blair should offer to self immolate in Damascus on 1 December. I reckon millions of people would stick around in the region to see that. Plus, it would be the first time he did anything genuinely useful as an ex "Middle East Peace Envoy".

    I think they sink the boats after they take the people off.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2015

    Brave and polite, a radical soul
    Jezza believes in coal not dole
    He'll embrace as comrades murderers and villains
    Just as long as they are anti-Americans

    Boom, boom

    There was an old man named Jez,
    Who always does as he sez,
    His friends in Hamas,
    Cried "Oh, alas!
    Jez, Swap that cap for a fez!"
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515
    edited August 2015


    I hoped you might say that. Should be a good day out and even if the weather is crap there are enough under cover exhibits to visit in between beers. Once I have confirmed permission from Herself (she will worry about me getting back across London on my own after dark) I'll drop you a PM.

    Any other PBers fancy a PBMeet with a twist?

    I am moderately tempted (Leicester are away that weekend) though it is also the Southampton Boat show and Bournmouth LD conference and I was considering doing the south coast double.

    Very likely that the LD conference will be overshadowed by the outcome of the Lab leadership and planning for the knife fight that will be the Labour conference whatever the winner.
    Be warned: the first time I went to the Southampton Boat Show, I ended up sailing on a tall ship to Dublin (see avatar). At least if you get tempted to fly somewhere, it'll take less than five days ...

    Edit: and you'll avoid a terrible bout of seasickness. The more the merrier ...
  • Not sure if they benefited from all women lists or not, but among the few bright points in the Labour clusterfuck are the likes of Stella Creasey, Gloria del Piero, Caroline Flint and Liz Kendall. Maybe Labour should just ban all men from all positions of authority. Diane Abbott notwithstanding the women have much more to offer than the blokes.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    edited August 2015
    Plato said:

    Well quite. It's easy, tick the box that you define as. Whatever your genitals are right now.

    JEO said:

    Plato said:
    I don't understand the point of asking for gender. Asking for their preferred mode of address should be enough. And it is true that transgender people, however few in numbers they may be, find this kind of thing unnecessarily insulting.
    Reminds me of this:

    "I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding."
    1. Gender doesn't refer to physical status.
    2. Spectrum rather than binary.
    3. It's very easy to accommodate the request.
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