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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    Mr. SE, the joy of an institutional failure is that you don't need to hold individuals to account, merely assert that the 'culture was to blame', as if culture is a strange and mystical thing that evolves and exists separately to actual people.

    Perhaps thats an idea you could explore in one of your books, Mr.D.. Do a bit of a Prachett, maybe.
    Lots of humour value in that, for sure - Going Postal had some good asides on that sort of thing (and the phrases attached to it, like things were 'to be regretted', which don't assign any actual blame or personal regret), bit could probably fill an entire book.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Corbyn back in the lead on Betfair.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Kids Company - woman on the BBC yesterday, saying CB helped her pay for "singing lessons." Woman on the radio today, CB helped her pay for gas, electric, food and children's clothes. If KC have not been keeping proper records, then what is to stop these people then going to claim extra welfare payments on top on these "handouts."

    Am I missing something here? Please tell me I have got this wrong but the whole thing seems a bloody shambles. No wonder they are demonstrating to keep the place open.
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    SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    Re: Kids Company. I saw a comment from a mother that KC paid for her child to have top quality trainers as he was being bullied because he couldn't afford them. Social services had refused to pay. I'm sorry but if her son was being bullied, then shouldn't the issue of bullying be addressed rather than giving in to the bullies by buying expensive trainers?

    I am also concerned about money being doled out. When Camilla Batman... was asked about this, she didn't deny it but just compared it to pocket money middle-class parents give. This is nonsense. Camilla herself has said that many children were vulnerable and came from dysfunctional backgrounds. If they were spending money on drugs and/or booze, surely that made them even more vulnerable?

    I'm really very angry about this whole KC business. I have a son with special needs and I'm currently trying to get direct payments from social services to pay for a carer for him for 4 hours a week. I've had to set up a separate bank account for the payments. It had been made quite clear to me that the payment must only go towards his carer and any expenses in this connection and in no way should it be spent on cigs/alcohol etc. I understand and accept this.

    How could so much of public money have been spent on such a sloppily run organisation? There are many local voluntary organisations that have had their grants cut. I accept Kids Company probably was well-intentioned at the beginning but it appears to me that vast sums of money were wasted that could have done so much more good if directed to other organisations.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    @SandraM The catalogue of frivolous spending by KC is mind-boggling. Every couple of hours another example pops out of the woodwork that makes me go WTF?!

    Good luck with funding for your son.

    EDIT Things provided by KC as documented by STimes inc facials, massages, nail bars, reflexology, hairdressing, acupuncture, therapy, meals, summer holidays, pocket money - I may have missed a few. These were used by kids, their parents and the staff.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    England just three wickets away from regaining #Ashes. Australia 7/241, still trailing by 90 runs at stumps on Day 2 - Not looking good for day 5 or 4?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,191

    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
    Dr Fox: whilst you are on, you might be amused to know of something that happened on Monday in the hospital in Inverness. I had my x-ray and they gave me a letter for my doctor. Except the doctor wrote that I had fractured my right, not my left, arm.

    I'm amused as no harm was done. But what if it was an amputation? ;)
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11788923/Kids-Company-boss-Camila-Batmanghelidjh-turned-HQ-into-private-Aladdins-den.html

    “Three people told me they had simply been employed off the street; one worked in a bank, another was working in a legal firm.”

    Significantly, the young woman disclosed that the charity had asked her to help compile an “evidence base” about its work to present to the Cabinet office as part of its bid for millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money.

    The absence of robust evidence to show whether the charity’s work with children was effective was one reason why ministers previously questioned whether to renew the group’s funding.

    In a scathing feedback report written earlier this year, seen by the Telegraph, she described the charity as “extremely overstaffed” and hopelessly inefficient. She also claimed that the charity effectively doctored its own statistics. She said she had been deeply disillusioned after seeing staff asking children to change what they had written on satisfaction questionnaires if they gave the “wrong answer”.

    She also said: “It seemed to me that people really are scared of [Miss Batmanghelidjh] … She seemed to have favourites and if you weren’t one that was made clear.”
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    Dair said:

    WTF

    Interview on BBC, some chav mother with a blurred faced kid. "Camilla paid for her to go to private school, that's £35k a year".

    WTF

    Also it appears that most of the "kids" this charity helps are actually late teens and early twenties. Do people realise the charity is misnamed when they donate?

    WTF

    This is simply staggering. In the coming weeks and months I am sure many more of these stories will surface.

    Someone was telling me of a man who was interviewed and claimed that he used the regular cash payments from them to buy drugs and he ended up using the money to buy crack.

    One thing you can be sure of is the establishment will close ranks and noone will be held to account.
    The thing I found incomprehensible was Camilla claiming they were helping 3,000 children "off book". How can that work for a charity that has to account for its expenditure? I disagree with you - this will get very, very messy I predict.
    No wonder two of their finance directors resigned. I have volunteered at well known charities where it is practically impossible to reclaim expenses yet Kids Company was literally swimming in so much cash that they could hand it out in brown paper envelopes.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    https://twitter.com/business/status/629721581779030016

    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2015
    A lot of oil-based regimes are going to be in serious trouble if the price keeps falling. WTI crude has just dropped below $44.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/energy
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
    Dr Fox: whilst you are on, you might be amused to know of something that happened on Monday in the hospital in Inverness. I had my x-ray and they gave me a letter for my doctor. Except the doctor wrote that I had fractured my right, not my left, arm.

    I'm amused as no harm was done. But what if it was an amputation? ;)
    For surgery the risk of wrong site surgery is very low because there are multiple checks and STOP moments, as per the mandatory WHO checklist.

    http://www.who.int/patientsafety/safesurgery/ss_checklist/en/

    Nonetheless sometimes my surgical colleagues do occasionally manage it. Roughly 5 per year according to national figures (a low rate compared with the USA).

    http://www.themdu.com/guidance-and-advice/latest-updates-and-advice/wrong-site-surgery

    It is particularly a problem in orthopaedics. Orthopods are traditionally as strong as an ox but half as clever!

    If I saw it in a discharge letter then I would do a datix (incident) form.

    Heel of radius as I recall. Hope it heals well.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of oil-based regimes are going to be in serious trouble if the price keeps falling. WTI crude has just dropped below $44.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/energy

    Venezuela needs $110 oil to balance the budget and owes $400bn
    Ecuador needs $95 oil and owes $100bn

    There are others
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Good luck SandraM I really hope all turns out well for you both. In saying that It really infuriates me that people like this have to fight for help that they deserve and we owe them. This is what the welfare state should be doing.

    Yet? Yet? they will pay these migrants 120 quid taxi rides from Dover to an office where they get given 30. Quid a week and accommodation.

    This country is utterly utterly mad.

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of oil-based regimes are going to be in serious trouble if the price keeps falling. WTI crude has just dropped below $44.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/energy

    Venezuela needs $110 oil to balance the budget and owes $400bn
    Ecuador needs $95 oil and owes $100bn

    There are others
    Even the Saudi's need around $100 - Scotland needs something around $300 !!
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
    In UKIP world, the EU incited Ukraine to move away from Russia. It's the enemy of my enemy is my friend principle. It's not the most sophisticated analysis but appeals to some.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of oil-based regimes are going to be in serious trouble if the price keeps falling. WTI crude has just dropped below $44.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/energy

    Aberdeen will turn into a ghost town again. I have seen this twice in my lifetime and it wasn't pretty. The casualty count was appalling. It really is not to be treated with humour. Nicola has come out well being still together and I think at this point she knows it. There will be a better time for her but now ain't it.

    Meanwhile they lift the Iranian sanctions. Whoopee Doo!!. Just what we need at the moment. More oil on the market going cheap to recoup and make a quick buck.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    calum said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of oil-based regimes are going to be in serious trouble if the price keeps falling. WTI crude has just dropped below $44.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/energy

    Venezuela needs $110 oil to balance the budget and owes $400bn
    Ecuador needs $95 oil and owes $100bn

    There are others
    Even the Saudi's need around $100 - Scotland needs something around $300 !!
    Not sure that's quite right with Saudi but in any event their lower cost of production means they can sustain significantly lower prices and for longer than Venezuela.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    edited August 2015
    matt said:

    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
    In UKIP world, the EU incited Ukraine to move away from Russia. It's the enemy of my enemy is my friend principle. It's not the most sophisticated analysis but appeals to some.
    Not sophisticats like you though eh? ;)
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    @foxinsox

    There are three schools of thought among UKIP supporters on Russia.

    Firstly, there is the @Socrates school. This holds that - while the EU is undemocratic and has been terrible for Britain - at least it doesn't invade other countries. (Socrates would even admit that the EU had been, on balance, good for most of the former Soviet Bloc countries that joined it.)

    Second, there is the Nigel Farage school. Essentially this says that "my enemy's enemy is my friend". It also - roughly - holds that you should prefer National based movements over supranational ones. (Nigel secretly admires President Putin for standing up to the EU.)

    Thirdly is the FalseFlag / LuckyGuy school of thought. Here critical faculties go out the window, and you basically unthinkingly support everything that President Putin does/says. Here, your hatred of the EU is driven not by your love of Britain, but your desire to support President Putin in all things.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    matt said:

    calum said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of oil-based regimes are going to be in serious trouble if the price keeps falling. WTI crude has just dropped below $44.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/energy

    Venezuela needs $110 oil to balance the budget and owes $400bn
    Ecuador needs $95 oil and owes $100bn

    There are others
    Even the Saudi's need around $100 - Scotland needs something around $300 !!
    Not sure that's quite right with Saudi but in any event their lower cost of production means they can sustain significantly lower prices and for longer than Venezuela.
    In the case of Saudi Arabia, the issue is that the government has made commitments that were perfectly affordable in $100 oil world, that are not affordable in a sub $60 world.

    Government spending is going to have to be cut.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Nielsen is reporting that last night's debate was the most watched cable TV program ever on Fox News. It almost tied the most watched Sunday Night Football game of last season, featuring that other ratings magnet, America's Team.

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/07/media/gop-debate-fox-news-ratings/
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    Isn't it an example of the 'Big Society', which was Cameron's big idea in the 2010 election?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,079
    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Sometimes when I read right-of-centre commentary I get the impression that there are perpetual dinner parties being celebrated across large swathes of urban areas, but I doubt it because grocers wouldn't be making such losses if that were the case.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    EPG said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Sometimes when I read right-of-centre commentary I get the impression that there are perpetual dinner parties being celebrated across large swathes of urban areas, but I doubt it because grocers wouldn't be making such losses if that were the case.
    Maybe they buy their food from farmer's markets ;)
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,079
    Sandpit said:

    watford30 said:

    Plato said:

    Camilla Long in STimes said she saw 2 kids in 9 hours over a weekend - but 75 staff.

    watford30 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Dair said:

    WTF

    Interview on BBC, some chav mother with a blurred faced kid. "Camilla paid for her to go to private school, that's £35k a year".

    WTF

    Also it appears that most of the "kids" this charity helps are actually late teens and early twenties. Do people realise the charity is misnamed when they donate?

    WTF

    This is simply staggering. In the coming weeks and months I am sure many more of these stories will surface.

    Someone was telling me of a man who was interviewed and claimed that he used the regular cash payments from them to buy drugs and he ended up using the money to buy crack.
    .
    The KC ethos was 'never turn a child away' and to 'spend every penny they received' - and low and behold, between 2009 and 2013 the number of self-referral children visiting the charity swelled by 22 thousand. – But then dishing out brown envelops stuffed with cash and Oyster cards, does tends to do that I find. :lol:
    Radio 4 ran a very informative programme on KC last night. According to interviewees, centres were quiet most days until Friday when it was chaos with hundreds of 'kids' pitching up to collect their £30 and Oyster cards. Then it was off to buy some weed. One laughed about buying an iPod with her loot.
    It sounds like a complete racket.

    Those operating well run charities supporting those in serious need of help must be banging their heads against walls in despair at the damage this has done to the charity sector.
    Hopefully this will be the kick that the charity sector needs to sort itself out - into smaller voluntary groups, rather than behemoths paying six figure salaries and hounding old ladies to the point of suicide.
    The average size and professionalism of all sorts of organisation has been growing bigger in the era of ICT and globalisation, from business service partnerships like accountants to mega-MNCs, and expenditure on management has therefore been rising. It seems retrograde to expect that charities would be the one group to step away from these trends and toward an unprofessional cottage-industry size model.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    matt said:

    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
    In UKIP world, the EU incited Ukraine to move away from Russia. It's the enemy of my enemy is my friend principle. It's not the most sophisticated analysis but appeals to some.
    Yes. What I find pretty strange is the underlying principle behind the 'the EU was attempting to incite Ukraine away from Russia' approach is when it is taken as read that the EU overreaching (a reasonable view) makes them entirely responsible for the escalations, because Ukraine is in Russia's sphere of influence, and so how dare the EU try to detach it from that, when even if that was unwise, what if Ukraine wanted to do that? (I am aware not all of Ukraine wanted to do that, but the 'EU overreaching' argument is predicated on the idea that it is unreasonable for them to make the offer as it upsets Russia, thus accepting Ukraine should be beholden to the Russia).

    It's hardly a surprise that the West is not willing to risk everything with Russia over Ukraine, hence their tactics all along, and maybe that will diminish pro-western sentiment in Ukraine (or the parts of it that are pro-western), but this idea that the EU encouraging Ukraine to join is a justifiable reason for Russia to do what it has only works if we accept Ukraine is not allowed to make its own choices and consider options (in fairness to Yanukovich, it appears whatever option was taken sizable parts would not be happy), but must at best remain 'neutral'. That would probably have been better for everyone right now, but they didn't have to.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,079
    Tim_B said:

    EPG said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Sometimes when I read right-of-centre commentary I get the impression that there are perpetual dinner parties being celebrated across large swathes of urban areas, but I doubt it because grocers wouldn't be making such losses if that were the case.
    Maybe they buy their food from farmer's markets ;)
    I liked when they made fun of Obama for enjoying arugula.

    You'd get away with that in Britain, where it is called plain old "rocket".
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    William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346
    Plato said:

    https://twitter.com/business/status/629721581779030016

    MikeK said:

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    More than bad light is stopping play with Ukraine.

    Not surprised that Sputniknews is pushing that line, as it is run from the Kremlin:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-ex-soviet-countries-front-line-russia-media-propaganda-war-west

    What is it with the Kipper Putin love in? There was a time when patriotic Brits were suspicious of the Russkis. Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows!
    Hmm, there's something like 3 times the population in the favourable to Russia countries than in the unfavourable to Russia countries.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited August 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    @foxinsox

    There are three schools of thought among UKIP supporters on Russia.

    Firstly, there is the @Socrates school. This holds that - while the EU is undemocratic and has been terrible for Britain - at least it doesn't invade other countries. (Socrates would even admit that the EU had been, on balance, good for most of the former Soviet Bloc countries that joined it.)

    Second, there is the Nigel Farage school. Essentially this says that "my enemy's enemy is my friend". It also - roughly - holds that you should prefer National based movements over supranational ones. (Nigel secretly admires President Putin for standing up to the EU.)

    Thirdly is the FalseFlag / LuckyGuy school of thought. Here critical faculties go out the window, and you basically unthinkingly support everything that President Putin does/says. Here, your hatred of the EU is driven not by your love of Britain, but your desire to support President Putin in all things.

    All very interesting, rcs1000, and all a load of cobblers.
    The reason I support Russia in this, (and not Putin, per se) is that I personally deplore what the US and the EU encouraged the far right to do in the Ukraine. Starting on 21 November 2013, when then-president Viktor Yanukovych suspended preparations for the implementation of an association agreement with the European Union. Top politicians from the EU encouraged mass protests by arming straight Fascist and proto Nazi organisations, causing Yanukovych to flee for his life. I have no love for Russia but in this case it was a natural defence of it's borders that they reacted so strongly to a Nato and EU provocation.

    During World War II, occupied Ukraine was among those countries that had a pro German/Nazi government active in killing Russians and Jews. The stink has lingered in these countries, long after it has disappeared from Germany itself. Many are in the EU now and show no sign changing their spots.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    Isn't it an example of the 'Big Society', which was Cameron's big idea in the 2010 election?
    Unfortunately for Cameron he was building on the work started by the first minister for the 3rd sector - Ed Milliband !!

    http://www.capx.co/why-camila-batmanghelidjh-had-access-to-a-prime-ministerial-slush-fund/

    " Enter Ed Miliband, a trusted confidante of Brown, who was duly appointed to be the first Minister for the Third Sector. Under his stewardship this newly formed “Office” acquired a responsibility for grant making to charities, seemingly as an end in itself, and on a grand scale. "

    I shudder to think what else has been getting funded by this "fund".
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,191
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    Whilst I was away you wrote about the economic effects of closing the chunnel, along with there not being enough ferries (apologies if it was not you).

    The chunnel has been closed before for lengthy periods after fires; I wonder what the economic effects of those closures were?

    (Note I am not saying we should close it).
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    MikeK said:

    Top politicians from the EU encouraged mass protests by arming straight Fascist and proto Nazi organisations

    EU politicians armed Fascists?

    Can you find a link from a reputable source to back up that assertion?

    The funny bit is that there is plenty of evidence of Russian government funding for anti-fraccing movements across Europe, and this is somehow forgotten.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    Sorting out the mess in Eritrea would be money well spent. However, I am not sure how much can be done short of regime change.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    I have and as long as you have a positive message folks respond. The SNP have managed to achieve this sort of scale, will they keep voting - time will tell. Corbyn will likely target specific groups:

    - Students and prospective students - student loan relief and cut tuition fees.
    - The non 1%ers - 70% tax rate on say folks earning over £250k.
    - Trade unions - up the workers.
    - Trident
    etc etc
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,191
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
    It's a piece of infrastructure, like a road, albeit an expensive one. Whilst it itself does not make money, it is (or should be) an enabler: it enables commerce to be carried out more easily, and hopefully increases commerce.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    MP_SE said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    Sorting out the mess in Eritrea would be money well spent. However, I am not sure how much can be done short of regime change.
    Blair tried that route by invading Liberia and Sierra Leone, they are still smashed up third world countries.
    The UN has invaded Somalia several times, it's still a mess.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    KC is like foreign aid in one sense.

    Imagine the UK had given a school in Afghanistan £3m as long as it reformed, then a week later when the money had vanished into thin air they pulled the plug.

    Not great for the government, but not going to be massively damaging.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
    If the Channel Tunnel was closed tomorrow, it would mean that 60% of the freight capacity between the UK and the continent was shut off. Likewise, it would mean that trains would not run between London St Pancras and Paris and Brussels.

    The ferries that previously were owned by Townsend Thoresen and the like (the Catamarans and the Hovercrafts, etc.) have largely been sold. Sure, in time new ones could be bought. But a number of cross channel ports have simply been closed due to lack of demand.

    Your assertion that the Tunnel would make a profit would make more sense were it not for the fact that Tunnel access fees are set by law.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2015
    BBC Radio Sheffield ‏@BBCSheffield Aug 4
    Labour leadership contender Jeremy Corbyn has told the BBC he would reopen some coal mines if he was to become Prime Minister.

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/629661805959335936
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,079

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
    It's a piece of infrastructure, like a road, albeit an expensive one. Whilst it itself does not make money, it is (or should be) an enabler: it enables commerce to be carried out more easily, and hopefully increases commerce.
    Yes. If it were permitted to charge economic rates it would be both very profitable, and very harmful to the rest of the economy. Most roads aren't tolled, so why should a tunnel be? It is silly thinking to expect every kilometre of rail to make a profit.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited August 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    Top politicians from the EU encouraged mass protests by arming straight Fascist and proto Nazi organisations

    EU politicians armed Fascists?

    Can you find a link from a reputable source to back up that assertion?

    The funny bit is that there is plenty of evidence of Russian government funding for anti-fraccing movements across Europe, and this is somehow forgotten.
    I think it is something to do with Right Sector's paramilitary wing merging with Ukraine's army.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/06/poroshenko-endorses-referendum-on-federalisation-of-ukraine
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Mr rcs, not strictly true, the berths at Ramsgate and Folkestone aren't big enough to cope with the size of the ferries operating out of Dover. Shutting the tunnel would bring either more traffic chaos to East Kent
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026
    Must admit Corbyn's batshit leftiness is growing slightly on me, may just be the small wodge I'll clear if he gets elected mind.

    Can he leave IHT alone though ? Then we can all enjoy daytrips out to the pits on the steamtrains.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200

    Mr rcs, not strictly true, the berths at Ramsgate and Folkestone aren't big enough to cope with the size of the ferries operating out of Dover. Shutting the tunnel would bring either more traffic chaos to East Kent

    Thank you for that.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
    It's a piece of infrastructure, like a road, albeit an expensive one. Whilst it itself does not make money, it is (or should be) an enabler: it enables commerce to be carried out more easily, and hopefully increases commerce.
    The Eurotunnel had transferred cargo of 18.7 million tonnes.
    In comparison Rotterdam is at 441.5 million tonnes.
    Grimsby (in Great Grimsby) has 57.3 million.
    London has 48.8 million.

    So the Eurotunnel is a but the tiniest stream in terms of commerce, it's like a straw compared to rivers.
    It's only passenger wise that makes a difference, though if ticket prices increased beyond a certain level in order to make it profitable, people would prefer the ferries.
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Plato said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11788923/Kids-Company-boss-Camila-Batmanghelidjh-turned-HQ-into-private-Aladdins-den.html

    “Three people told me they had simply been employed off the street; one worked in a bank, another was working in a legal firm.”

    Significantly, the young woman disclosed that the charity had asked her to help compile an “evidence base” about its work to present to the Cabinet office as part of its bid for millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money.

    The absence of robust evidence to show whether the charity’s work with children was effective was one reason why ministers previously questioned whether to renew the group’s funding.

    In a scathing feedback report written earlier this year, seen by the Telegraph, she described the charity as “extremely overstaffed” and hopelessly inefficient. She also claimed that the charity effectively doctored its own statistics. She said she had been deeply disillusioned after seeing staff asking children to change what they had written on satisfaction questionnaires if they gave the “wrong answer”.

    She also said: “It seemed to me that people really are scared of [Miss Batmanghelidjh] … She seemed to have favourites and if you weren’t one that was made clear.”
    Ms Batman.... talks about "destitute" kids needing help. Those in the demo in London today seemed very well fed, articulate, confident and possessing a certain amount of bling.

  • Options
    Off topic.
    One for Plato if you're around
    It's happened, folks: An actual exhibition about cats and the internet
    And it opens today in New York
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/07/exhibition_about_cats_and_internet/
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    I have and as long as you have a positive message folks respond. The SNP have managed to achieve this sort of scale, will they keep voting - time will tell. Corbyn will likely target specific groups:

    - Students and prospective students - student loan relief and cut tuition fees.
    - The non 1%ers - 70% tax rate on say folks earning over £250k.
    - Trade unions - up the workers.
    - Trident
    etc etc
    If you earned £250k a year, how would you feel about paying a 70% rate? In reality you wouldnt. If you were mobile you would leave, or you would arrange your affairs to avoid paying it, aka Ken Livingstone and Charolotte Church, by funnelling it through series of companies.
  • Options
    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,883
    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    Relying on previous non voters to make up a large part of your vote is electoral suicide.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
    It's a piece of infrastructure, like a road, albeit an expensive one. Whilst it itself does not make money, it is (or should be) an enabler: it enables commerce to be carried out more easily, and hopefully increases commerce.
    The Eurotunnel had transferred cargo of 18.7 million tonnes.
    In comparison Rotterdam is at 441.5 million tonnes.
    Grimsby (in Great Grimsby) has 57.3 million.
    London has 48.8 million.

    So the Eurotunnel is a but the tiniest stream in terms of commerce, it's like a straw compared to rivers.
    It's only passenger wise that makes a difference, though if ticket prices increased beyond a certain level in order to make it profitable, people would prefer the ferries.
    That's a slightly misleading comparison.

    There are three types of cargo:

    Firstly, there is oil and gas
    Secondly, there is dry bulk
    Thirdly, there is container

    You are including the first two in in your numbers, when they are not really comparable.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,191
    EPG said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
    It's a piece of infrastructure, like a road, albeit an expensive one. Whilst it itself does not make money, it is (or should be) an enabler: it enables commerce to be carried out more easily, and hopefully increases commerce.
    Yes. If it were permitted to charge economic rates it would be both very profitable, and very harmful to the rest of the economy. Most roads aren't tolled, so why should a tunnel be? It is silly thinking to expect every kilometre of rail to make a profit.
    Railways are tolled: there is a network access charge that operators have to pay, mainly dependent on the type of vehicle running. It's how NR makes (most?) of its money.

    http://www.networkrail.co.uk/using-our-network/cp5-access-charges/
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Sandpit said:

    watford30 said:

    Plato said:

    Camilla Long in STimes said she saw 2 kids in 9 hours over a weekend - but 75 staff.

    watford30 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Dair said:

    WTF

    Interview on BBC, some chav mother with a blurred faced kid. "Camilla paid for her to go to private school, that's £35k a year".

    WTF

    Also it appears that most of the "kids" this charity helps are actually late teens and early twenties. Do people realise the charity is misnamed when they donate?

    WTF

    This is simply staggering. In the coming weeks and months I am sure many more of these stories will surface.

    Someone was telling me of a man who was interviewed and claimed that he used the regular cash payments from them to buy drugs and he ended up using the money to buy crack.
    .
    The KC ethos was 'never turn a child away' and to 'spend every penny they received' - and low and behold, between 2009 and 2013 the number of self-referral children visiting the charity swelled by 22 thousand. – But then dishing out brown envelops stuffed with cash and Oyster cards, does tends to do that I find. :lol:
    Radio 4 ran a very informative programme on KC last night. According to interviewees, centres were quiet most days until Friday when it was chaos with hundreds of 'kids' pitching up to collect their £30 and Oyster cards. Then it was off to buy some weed. One laughed about buying an iPod with her loot.
    It sounds like a complete racket.

    Those operating well run charities supporting those in serious need of help must be banging their heads against walls in despair at the damage this has done to the charity sector.
    Hopefully this will be the kick that the charity sector needs to sort itself out - into smaller voluntary groups, rather than behemoths paying six figure salaries and hounding old ladies to the point of suicide.
    Surely the logical conclusion is that charities must become massive behemoths with whole departments of accountants and auditors. Perhaps the answer is not to conclude anything. Hard cases make bad law.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    It's highly ironic that Tories want the channel tunnel open even if it's never made a profit.
    If the tunnel was so economically important it would have made money fairly easily, instead it's finances are a black hole.
    It's a piece of infrastructure, like a road, albeit an expensive one. Whilst it itself does not make money, it is (or should be) an enabler: it enables commerce to be carried out more easily, and hopefully increases commerce.
    The Eurotunnel had transferred cargo of 18.7 million tonnes.
    In comparison Rotterdam is at 441.5 million tonnes.
    Grimsby (in Great Grimsby) has 57.3 million.
    London has 48.8 million.

    So the Eurotunnel is a but the tiniest stream in terms of commerce, it's like a straw compared to rivers.
    It's only passenger wise that makes a difference, though if ticket prices increased beyond a certain level in order to make it profitable, people would prefer the ferries.
    That's a slightly misleading comparison.

    There are three types of cargo:

    Firstly, there is oil and gas
    Secondly, there is dry bulk
    Thirdly, there is container

    You are including the first two in in your numbers, when they are not really comparable.
    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/
  • Options
    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    Not majorly relevant but I must point out that most of those union membership figures are out of date (I keep a personally updated version at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AR2mi8d99beuZUBB3K8PGd9Z-v17VezbeSDPN-KmZgI/edit#gid=31214862 )

    Unions are in a serious state of decline. The Communication Workers Union will most likely lead the collapse with Royal Mail further cost-cutting to adapt to declining letter volumes.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    @Speedy

    Associated British Ports, which owns Grimsby among its 21 ports, does 94.5m tonnes of cargo in a year. (http://www.abports.co.uk/admin/content/files/Investor Relations/2015/2014 Full Year - Investor Report.pdf)

    Of that 94.5, only 12.9m tonnes is containers. And I'm assuming that the bulk of that is with the Far East rather than with Europe.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,079
    Danny565 said:

    BBC Radio Sheffield ‏@BBCSheffield Aug 4
    Labour leadership contender Jeremy Corbyn has told the BBC he would reopen some coal mines if he was to become Prime Minister.

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/629661805959335936

    "I'm gutted that my ordinary Liverpool upbringing never gave me the opportunity to be a coalminer and give something back to traditional Labour voters in colliery communities."
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    Speedy said:

    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

    Nevertheless, Dry Bulk (coal, corn, etc.) does not travel by tunnel because it's coming in from Colombia etc. Nor does Liquid Bulk (oil, LNG, etc.).

    The tunnel almost exclusively does container traffic between Europe and the UK.

    Pretty much all manufactured exports from the UK are containerised.
  • Options

    England just three wickets away from regaining #Ashes. Australia 7/241, still trailing by 90 runs at stumps on Day 2 - Not looking good for day 5 or 4?

    The cricket situation has developed not necessarily to Australia's advantage.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

    Nevertheless, Dry Bulk (coal, corn, etc.) does not travel by tunnel because it's coming in from Colombia etc. Nor does Liquid Bulk (oil, LNG, etc.).

    The tunnel almost exclusively does container traffic between Europe and the UK.

    Pretty much all manufactured exports from the UK are containerised.
    And most of it goes by ship because it's far cheaper that by train or plane.
    There is a reason why ports are centers of trade and not train stations.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

    Nevertheless, Dry Bulk (coal, corn, etc.) does not travel by tunnel because it's coming in from Colombia etc. Nor does Liquid Bulk (oil, LNG, etc.).

    The tunnel almost exclusively does container traffic between Europe and the UK.

    Pretty much all manufactured exports from the UK are containerised.
    And most of it goes by ship because it's far cheaper that by train or plane.
    Also, because we don't import coal from Europe.

    We don't export any dry bulk or liquid bulk cargoes (AFAIK) from the UK.

    So: good news! If the Channel Tunnel is shut, then it will only be our export industries that will be affected!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2015
    Speedy said:

    MP_SE said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Re: KC

    At the moment its "very messy"! If allegations of abuse on the premises or by staff are proven, it will reach catastrophe.

    But I do not think it it reflects particularly badly on the government.

    From that side, Cameron et al fell victim through their own negligence.

    On the other hand, it will quickly become far easier to justify their decision to end government support and thus "close" the charity.

    I think the government's approach to Kids Company can be applied to foreign aid. It is trendy, makes you feel good about yourself and you can boast about it at dinner parties. Actual results do not matter.
    Foreign Aid is such a difficult one. I don't understand fetishising the x% of GDP, and I think we have problems enough at home.

    On the other hand, I can see that doing things that make - say - Eritrea less shit may well discourage the flow of migrants out of there and in our direction. There may be things we can do that are in our own best interest. (Or, at least, are cheaper than the effects on the British economy of concrete-ing in the Channel Tunnel.)
    Sorting out the mess in Eritrea would be money well spent. However, I am not sure how much can be done short of regime change.
    Blair tried that route by invading Liberia and Sierra Leone, they are still smashed up third world countries.
    The UN has invaded Somalia several times, it's still a mess.
    Sierra Leone has had a bad time with Ebola last year but has had economic growth in the teens in recent years:

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/sierra-leone/gdp-growth-annual

    Perhaps the only example of unequivocal success of Blairs wars. I don't recall us getting involved in Liberia.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    notme said:

    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    I have and as long as you have a positive message folks respond. The SNP have managed to achieve this sort of scale, will they keep voting - time will tell. Corbyn will likely target specific groups:

    - Students and prospective students - student loan relief and cut tuition fees.
    - The non 1%ers - 70% tax rate on say folks earning over £250k.
    - Trade unions - up the workers.
    - Trident
    etc etc
    If you earned £250k a year, how would you feel about paying a 70% rate? In reality you wouldnt. If you were mobile you would leave, or you would arrange your affairs to avoid paying it, aka Ken Livingstone and Charolotte Church, by funnelling it through series of companies.
    Corbyn at this stage just needs to make the right noises to keep folks energised, realistically by the time he got to 2020 the 70% would be scaled back to 50%. Given that most of the folks earning these amounts are City workers, professional services partners and it would appear some charity bosses - there isn't much they can do to avoid the tax as long as Osbo is true to his word on stamping out evasion.
  • Options
    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited August 2015
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

    Nevertheless, Dry Bulk (coal, corn, etc.) does not travel by tunnel because it's coming in from Colombia etc. Nor does Liquid Bulk (oil, LNG, etc.).

    The tunnel almost exclusively does container traffic between Europe and the UK.

    Pretty much all manufactured exports from the UK are containerised.
    And most of it goes by ship because it's far cheaper that by train or plane.
    I recall seeing that the % of world trade by value that is carried by air freight is surprisingly high: it's unsurprising that it's much larger than the % by weight simply because it tends to be high value stuff, but the extent of the disproportionality got a raised eyebrow out of me. But sadly I can't recall the numbers.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,917
    Evening all :)

    Not sure if Boris's speech to the Centre for Social Justice has had much covergae but it's an interesting if slightly rambling effort:

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/08/boris-johnson-sets-out-his-blue-collar-conservative-manifesto/

    Needless to say, Boris's own propaganda outlet, the Evening Standard, lapped it up. I'm no Conservative and I found parts if it incoherent. I mentioned in jest the possibility of the Conservatives forming their own Opposition the other day and Boris might be providing it because his attempt to widen the Conservative tent is just as likely to cause it to collapse from its internal contradictions.

    That said, the Boris message would be attractive to many and not just "the working poor". I'm not convinced in terms of London that Boris's own actions on housing and transport have achieved much, if anything, to provide the opportunities about which he waxes so lyrical and, to be fair, education isn't in his fiefdom.

    Housing in London remains a huge issue and problem on many levels while as we've seen this week, for all his bluster, Boris has failed to either break the RMT or establish a new and more durable modus vivendi.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Artist said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    Relying on previous non voters to make up a large part of your vote is electoral suicide.
    It worked for the SNP, I think we're on the cusp of a new era in politics, the commentators are spending too much time studying the past. Sadly as events seem to slip away from the MSM and mainstream parties expectations, their main weapon seems to be demonization - which is becoming a less effective weapon by the day. By the time we get to 2020 I wouldn't be surprised if MSM daily readership was sub 20%.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

    Nevertheless, Dry Bulk (coal, corn, etc.) does not travel by tunnel because it's coming in from Colombia etc. Nor does Liquid Bulk (oil, LNG, etc.).

    The tunnel almost exclusively does container traffic between Europe and the UK.

    Pretty much all manufactured exports from the UK are containerised.
    And most of it goes by ship because it's far cheaper that by train or plane.
    Also, because we don't import coal from Europe.

    We don't export any dry bulk or liquid bulk cargoes (AFAIK) from the UK.

    So: good news! If the Channel Tunnel is shut, then it will only be our export industries that will be affected!
    What is the share of exports through the Tunnel?
    With only a third of traffic of that of the ports of London or Great Grimsby, how big could it be?

    I believe that the fuss about the tunnel is only about passengers commuting from France to London and vice versa not about trade:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201012/ldselect/ldeucom/229/22907.htm
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    I have and as long as you have a positive message folks respond. The SNP have managed to achieve this sort of scale, will they keep voting - time will tell. Corbyn will likely target specific groups:

    - Students and prospective students - student loan relief and cut tuition fees.
    - The non 1%ers - 70% tax rate on say folks earning over £250k.
    - Trade unions - up the workers.
    - Trident
    etc etc
    If you earned £250k a year, how would you feel about paying a 70% rate? In reality you wouldnt. If you were mobile you would leave, or you would arrange your affairs to avoid paying it, aka Ken Livingstone and Charolotte Church, by funnelling it through series of companies.
    Corbyn at this stage just needs to make the right noises to keep folks energised, realistically by the time he got to 2020 the 70% would be scaled back to 50%. Given that most of the folks earning these amounts are City workers, professional services partners and it would appear some charity bosses - there isn't much they can do to avoid the tax as long as Osbo is true to his word on stamping out evasion.
    Well, they might just decide not to work as hard...
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    The premiere of The Donald Trump Show scored record ratings, 24 million watched it:

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/07/media/gop-debate-fox-news-ratings/
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    @Speedy

    the ports you mention are predominantly dry and wet bulk ports. they are not container ports. they exist principally for the IMPORT of low value commodities from the Americas, and Africa.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    I have and as long as you have a positive message folks respond. The SNP have managed to achieve this sort of scale, will they keep voting - time will tell. Corbyn will likely target specific groups:

    - Students and prospective students - student loan relief and cut tuition fees.
    - The non 1%ers - 70% tax rate on say folks earning over £250k.
    - Trade unions - up the workers.
    - Trident
    etc etc
    If you earned £250k a year, how would you feel about paying a 70% rate? In reality you wouldnt. If you were mobile you would leave, or you would arrange your affairs to avoid paying it, aka Ken Livingstone and Charolotte Church, by funnelling it through series of companies.
    Corbyn at this stage just needs to make the right noises to keep folks energised, realistically by the time he got to 2020 the 70% would be scaled back to 50%. Given that most of the folks earning these amounts are City workers, professional services partners and it would appear some charity bosses - there isn't much they can do to avoid the tax as long as Osbo is true to his word on stamping out evasion.

    Labour cannot go into the 2020 election without concrete and audited plans on how they are going to balance the public finances. There are going to be lots of tempting spending commitments / demands for reversal of cuts over the next five years.

    You will have to resist almost every single one of them. You will need to account, penny for penny of each additional piece of expenditure.

    In the last parliament it only seemed to be Ed Balls who was interested in maintaining even a fig leaf of some kind of economic credibility.


  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,917
    Oddly enough, as I listened to Boris's speech, it reminded me of the kind of speeches Michael Heseltine made after he left the Cabinet and before he challenged Thatcher in 1990.

    Indeed, Boris is the 21st Century Heseltine - pro EU, concerned about the poor and indeed willing to use the apparatus of Government through key areas of policy to achieve that goal in stark contrast to the free market approach.

    I'd go further and say had Tony Blair made a speech of that nature, though not obviously the style, no one would have been surprised.

    The curiosity, as City AM and others have pointed out, is that for all his rhetoric, George Osborne is not afraid to micro-manage the economy using legislation and the Budget was incredibly interventionist in terms of using the levers of the State to control the economy.

    As once again the Spectator has alluded, the similarities between Osborne and Johnson in policy terms are considerable yet it seems their political relationship is poor - Cameron has acted as a balance between the socially liberal economically interventionist One Nation types and the more socially conservative traditional free marketeers such as Hammond and presumably May who are more in the Thatcherite mould.

    Once he goes, the succession will be much more akin to a battle for the Conservative soul than might seem the case at the moment.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    @Speedy: as far as I am aware, the biggest container port in the UK is Felixstowe docks (https://www.portoffelixstowe.co.uk/port/container-operations-berths-1-7/)

    That handles 4m TEUs per year, which is probably equivalent to about 12m tonnes of freight.

    So: ABP (across all its ports) handles 14m tonnes of container freight, Felixstowe 12m, and the Channel Tunnel about 18m.

    That would seem to suggest that Eurotunnel handles about 40% of containerised British frieght.

    However, we are only concerned with freight between the UK and Europe, and I suspect (although I don't know) that 90% of the containerised freight out of Felixstowe and the ABP ports is bound for the US and Asia.

    So, the answer is closing the Channel Tunnel would have a very significant effect on our UK-EU trade.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    I think we should christen Corbyn's 2020 winning election idea of chasing those who wont vote, "the 33.9% strategy" in homage to Ed Miliband's "35% strategy".
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    notme said:

    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    I have and as long as you have a positive message folks respond. The SNP have managed to achieve this sort of scale, will they keep voting - time will tell. Corbyn will likely target specific groups:

    - Students and prospective students - student loan relief and cut tuition fees.
    - The non 1%ers - 70% tax rate on say folks earning over £250k.
    - Trade unions - up the workers.
    - Trident
    etc etc
    If you earned £250k a year, how would you feel about paying a 70% rate? In reality you wouldnt. If you were mobile you would leave, or you would arrange your affairs to avoid paying it, aka Ken Livingstone and Charolotte Church, by funnelling it through series of companies.

    Labour cannot go into the 2020 election without concrete and audited plans on how they are going to balance the public finances. There are going to be lots of tempting spending commitments / demands for reversal of cuts over the next five years.

    You will have to resist almost every single one of them. You will need to account, penny for penny of each additional piece of expenditure.

    In the last parliament it only seemed to be Ed Balls who was interested in maintaining even a fig leaf of some kind of economic credibility.


    I think that Corbyn will cope with this well (probably Kendall too) but not Cooper or Burnham. Partly this will be because the deficit will be a lot smaller in 2020. The other part is that Corbyn is not New Labour and not wedded to low income taxes, he is very likely to balance the books with substantial tax rises.
  • Options
    Hell of a story at the bottom of the telegraph

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/629756166990598144
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    jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

    Nevertheless, Dry Bulk (coal, corn, etc.) does not travel by tunnel because it's coming in from Colombia etc. Nor does Liquid Bulk (oil, LNG, etc.).

    The tunnel almost exclusively does container traffic between Europe and the UK.

    Pretty much all manufactured exports from the UK are containerised.
    And most of it goes by ship because it's far cheaper that by train or plane.
    Also, because we don't import coal from Europe.

    We don't export any dry bulk or liquid bulk cargoes (AFAIK) from the UK.

    So: good news! If the Channel Tunnel is shut, then it will only be our export industries that will be affected!
    I did my fair share of exporting bulk liquid cargoes,mainly from the North East coast, to Scandinavian ports. I got horribly messed up once when I went to meet a a delivery to Gotland, in the Baltic, at the height of the Foot and Mouth crisis,they refused to let the ship dock,I explained we had left the UK from Sunderland, and there were very few sheep or cattle there,eventually we got permission to dock,but no crew were allowed ashore,and only I was allowed on board. It was not a happy delivery.
    Local papers had me as the headlines,"UK expert flies out to meet Plague ship",or something like that, it was in Swedish.

  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    notme said:

    calum said:

    I think Cameron's proposed trade union legislation is giving the unions a new lease of life - Corbyn appears to be in the right place at the right time to benefit. At the end of the day he doesn't care about the MSM, if anything their demonization of him will drive his support base as with the SNP. All Corbyn has to do to become a realistic contender in 2020 is to mobilise 10 to 15% of the 20 million DNV/not registered - he has already made a good start !!

    https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/627923652986687488

    The problems is the unions are seen as public sector feather bedders. But you do sound a bit like the Dragon's Dead contestant who starts off their pitch:
    "the pet industry is estimated to be worth £10 billion, if we can capture a small slice of that we will make lots of money"

    Yes, its not that easy. Try canvassing a non voter.
    I have and as long as you have a positive message folks respond. The SNP have managed to achieve this sort of scale, will they keep voting - time will tell. Corbyn will likely target specific groups:

    - Students and prospective students - student loan relief and cut tuition fees.
    - The non 1%ers - 70% tax rate on say folks earning over £250k.
    - Trade unions - up the workers.
    - Trident
    etc etc
    If you earned £250k a year, how would you feel about paying a 70% rate? In reality you wouldnt. If you were mobile you would leave, or you would arrange your affairs to avoid paying it, aka Ken Livingstone and Charolotte Church, by funnelling it through series of companies.
    Corbyn at this stage just needs to make the right noises to keep folks energised, realistically by the time he got to 2020 the 70% would be scaled back to 50%. Given that most of the folks earning these amounts are City workers, professional services partners and it would appear some charity bosses - there isn't much they can do to avoid the tax as long as Osbo is true to his word on stamping out evasion.
    Seriously? At punitive Corbyn levels of tax they'll be huge energy put into legally avoiding tax including leaving the country and just working less. ( they can't tax holidays at least).
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited August 2015
    I wish the Mail would have sat on this story until after Corbyn becomes leader:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3187428/Jeremy-Corbyn-s-links-notorious-Holocaust-denier-revealed.html

    He is making Farage look saintly in comparison.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    jayfdee said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    The eurotunnel does not publish by TEU, only by weight in tonnes.

    http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

    Nevertheless, Dry Bulk (coal, corn, etc.) does not travel by tunnel because it's coming in from Colombia etc. Nor does Liquid Bulk (oil, LNG, etc.).

    The tunnel almost exclusively does container traffic between Europe and the UK.

    Pretty much all manufactured exports from the UK are containerised.
    And most of it goes by ship because it's far cheaper that by train or plane.
    Also, because we don't import coal from Europe.

    We don't export any dry bulk or liquid bulk cargoes (AFAIK) from the UK.

    So: good news! If the Channel Tunnel is shut, then it will only be our export industries that will be affected!
    I did my fair share of exporting bulk liquid cargoes,mainly from the North East coast, to Scandinavian ports. I got horribly messed up once when I went to meet a a delivery to Gotland, in the Baltic, at the height of the Foot and Mouth crisis,they refused to let the ship dock,I explained we had left the UK from Sunderland, and there were very few sheep or cattle there,eventually we got permission to dock,but no crew were allowed ashore,and only I was allowed on board. It was not a happy delivery.
    Local papers had me as the headlines,"UK expert flies out to meet Plague ship",or something like that, it was in Swedish.

    LOL!

    And, you're absolutely right: I was forgetting the SABIC and ICI plants around Sunderland and Middlesborough.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,200
    edited August 2015
    MP_SE said:

    I wish the Mail would have sat on this story until Corbyn becomes leader:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3187428/Jeremy-Corbyn-s-links-notorious-Holocaust-denier-revealed.html

    He is making Farage look saintly in comparison.

    Given his links with Islamic extremists, we shouldn't be too surprised if he's picked up a few holocaust deniers along the way.

    EDIT: referring to Corbyn not Farage, obviously
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    I was looking to find a list of government defeats in the HoL and found this http://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/research/parliament/house-of-lords/lords-defeats
    which I thought was a great resource.
    Cameron needs about 70 new lords to prevent the 80% of those defeats (excluding the inevitable deaths/retirements/absences)
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    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wish the Mail would have sat on this story until Corbyn becomes leader:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3187428/Jeremy-Corbyn-s-links-notorious-Holocaust-denier-revealed.html

    He is making Farage look saintly in comparison.

    Given his links with Islamic extremists, we shouldn't be too surprised if he's picked up a few holocaust deniers along the way.

    EDIT: referring to Corbyn not Farage, obviously
    Ahem


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2801972/jewish-fury-ukip-s-nigel-farage-forms-pact-holocaust-deniers-secure-funding-eu.html
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    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    Always liked this song by blur and just found out it's about rain forest destruction and the Iraq war!

    http://youtu.be/opDTfmICr40
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211

    Hell of a story at the bottom of the telegraph

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/629756166990598144

    Kendall is now single I believe
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    When discussing migrants, hardly any commentators seem to mention the total failure of post-colonialist governments despite being given enormous funds by the West over the last 50 years. The reason is that none of them want to admit that maybe things were better for ordinary people in those countries when they were part of colonial empires.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    'Given his links with Islamic extremists, we shouldn't be too surprised if he's picked up a few holocaust deniers along the way.'

    Just because Cameron is best mates with the totalitarian rulers of the world's most evil religious state, doesn't mean he is responsible for all the anti-Semitic bile and plague of Islamic extremism that comes out of Saudi Arabia,

    Oh, you are talking about Corbyn.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    Speedy said:

    The premiere of The Donald Trump Show scored record ratings, 24 million watched it:

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/07/media/gop-debate-fox-news-ratings/

    Gravis post-debate poll has Carson the winner, Paul the loser

    Who won-
    Carson 22
    Trump 19
    Rubio 13
    Bush 10
    Huck 9
    Kasich 8
    Cruz 7
    Walker 7
    Paul 3
    Christie 2

    Who lost-
    Paul 34
    Trump 30
    Christie 9
    Bush 7
    Kasich 4
    Carson 4
    Huck 4
    Cruz 4
    Walker 2
    Rubio 2

    More favor/less favor
    Carson 80-9
    Rubio 68-13
    Huck 60-18
    Walker 58-17
    Cruz 57-19
    Kasich 54-27
    Bush 48-33
    Christie 41-33
    Trump 36-45
    Paul 14-67
    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ben-carson-scores-big-win-at-the-first-gop-debate-followed-by-marco-rubio-300125436.html
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    Ponting: 'Eight of this side will not play Test cricket again'
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    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    edited August 2015
    Imagine if the great pretending trollers here had to do this

    'In print and online articles in April and May 2013 we said that Alex Wood, who was standing for UKIP in the May 2013 local elections in Somerset, had been photographed making a 'Nazi salute'. We also said that he had made racist comments on Facebook.

    We now accept that these allegations were wrong and there is no reason to believe that Mr Wood is a racist or a Nazi. The photograph, one of a series of photographs appearing on his Facebook page, was taken out of context. Mr Wood was reaching out to stop a friend taking a photo on a mobile phone. The comments on Facebook purportedly made by Mr Wood were not made by him and the police have confirmed that they were not made by Mr Wood.

    We apologise to Mr Wood for the allegations made and any hurt and distress caused as a result. We hope this apology will go some way to repairing Mr Wood’s reputation.”

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/for-the-record/alex-wood-an-apology-6209529#ICID=sharebar_facebook
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,191
    isam said:

    Imagine if the great pretending trollers here had to do this

    'In print and online articles in April and May 2013 we said that Alex Wood, who was standing for UKIP in the May 2013 local elections in Somerset, had been photographed making a 'Nazi salute'. We also said that he had made racist comments on Facebook.

    We now accept that these allegations were wrong and there is no reason to believe that Mr Wood is a racist or a Nazi. The photograph, one of a series of photographs appearing on his Facebook page, was taken out of context. Mr Wood was reaching out to stop a friend taking a photo on a mobile phone. The comments on Facebook purportedly made by Mr Wood were not made by him and the police have confirmed that they were not made by Mr Wood.

    We apologise to Mr Wood for the allegations made and any hurt and distress caused as a result. We hope this apology will go some way to repairing Mr Wood’s reputation.”

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/for-the-record/alex-wood-an-apology-6209529#ICID=sharebar_facebook

    Hope he gets a nice big payout.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,079
    AndyJS said:

    When discussing migrants, hardly any commentators seem to mention the total failure of post-colonialist governments despite being given enormous funds by the West over the last 50 years. The reason is that none of them want to admit that maybe things were better for ordinary people in those countries when they were part of colonial empires.

    Codswallop. India's constant cycle of famine ended the minute the Empire buggered off. So it wasn't all kindly missionaries and smiling subalterns.
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