Over almost 10 years, the Scottish Labour party slowly fell into disrepute and the UK Labour Leaders watched it happen through the Scottish election losses of 2007, then 2011 and finally the near wipe out of 2015. They were by standers at the car crash and failed to intervene.
Now we are watching the main, English, part of the Labour party slide into chaos and anarchy as it is inevitably taken over by the hard left who control the purse strings of its paymasters with a wave of student rebels. Roughly 10 years ago the Unions became the providors again of 2/3 of Labour's donations. That change has been the elephant in the room for Labour.
Extraordinary to watch. Meanwhile Harman, Cooper and Burnham etc seem to be oblivious to the changes that are under way. Just as they and the Ed Miliband "team" and Brown's team before that, watched the near death of SLAB so they watch the inevitable near death of the English Labour party.
And 20 years from now will a latter day Dangerfield write 'The Strange Death of Labour England?' Mind you, it wasn't a very good book in my view - he made a lot of assumptions that were completely wrong.
And of course there is another book by Geoffrey Wheatcroft called 'The Strange Death of Tory England' which completely wrongly claimed that Macleod and Home had contended for the leadership in 1963 and that the Tory splits began from that...
The incentives should be such that Britain does not look like such an attractive place to be an illegal immigrant. If you do that, you dramatically reduce the need for barbed wire, and water cannons, and the like.
Completely agree, but it will take courage. 1. Change rules on welfare benefits where necessary, and be prepared to stand up to possible EU outrage/threats. 2. Be serious about tackling the employment of illegals. 3. Process all claims quickly and demonstrably fairly. 4. Be serious with the "human rights" industry 5. and most importantly... be proactive about finding and welcoming a significant number of genuinely desperate people (abandoned women with a couple of kids, Syrian Christians etc) to demonstrate humanitarian credentials.
The single most important thing is to clamp down on the labour blackmarket. These guys don't come here to earn £37/week and live 16 to a room in a dormitory in a asylum centre.
They want to get to London and work illegally in a restaraunt or at a minicab office or on a building site, where they get £300 cash in hand.
Yep. Mega fine for first offence and prison term for second for those employing illegal labour.
Agreed. Now the question is why is that not on the agenda?
Agreed. Now the question is why is that not on the agenda?
If I were feeling malicious I would speculate on how many MPs had forgotten to do the necessary checks on their own staff...bearing in mind at least two ministers have had to resign in the recent past over such matters, including the current Chief Whip.
The incentives should be such that Britain does not look like such an attractive place to be an illegal immigrant. If you do that, you dramatically reduce the need for barbed wire, and water cannons, and the like.
Completely agree, but it will take courage. 1. Change rules on welfare benefits where necessary, and be prepared to stand up to possible EU outrage/threats. 2. Be serious about tackling the employment of illegals. 3. Process all claims quickly and demonstrably fairly. 4. Be serious with the "human rights" industry 5. and most importantly... be proactive about finding and welcoming a significant number of genuinely desperate people (abandoned women with a couple of kids, Syrian Christians etc) to demonstrate humanitarian credentials.
The single most important thing is to clamp down on the labour blackmarket. These guys don't come here to earn £37/week and live 16 to a room in a dormitory in a asylum centre.
They want to get to London and work illegally in a restaraunt or at a minicab office or on a building site, where they get £300 cash in hand.
Yep. Mega fine for first offence and prison term for second for those employing illegal labour.
Agreed. Now the question is why is that not on the agenda?
Because people want something to be done about Calais NOW!
The most sensible solutions are, of course, much more nuanced.
Improve the conditions in the migrant donor states.
Educate in the migrant donor states.
Incentivise people to start business and trades in migrant donor states.
Use overseas aid budget in migrant donor states.
Make it harder to claim in UK
Issue permits for a fixed term after which they will be returned to migrant donor states.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
The loss of the motivated, resourceful and fit is detrimental to migrant donor states. A loss of a large quantity of young fit males is not helping local economic performance long term (applies to Poland and EU migration in particular as well as African, Asian and other regions).
Identify point of origin from DNA profile, don't accept no documentation as an impediment to repatriation to migrant donor states.
Allowing illegal immigration allows unscrupulous people to take advantage of the migrants for years to come. Stopping illegal immigration is important for the migrants.
What other collective noun would be acceptable instead of 'Swarm'?
Is the era of politically correct language drawing to a close?
Will Jo or Joe average be outraged by the use of swarm when they are fawning over the 'authenticity' of speech from Mr J Corbyn?
Major sources of migrants to Europe include Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Eritrea. Sadly, most of the non-British solutions you have mentioned rely on the goodwill of the local government, and don't apply to warzones. If you worsen conditions in the UK, some legal migrants will be caught in the crossfire and the illegal ones will probably still try to get to the UK where the economy is good.
Time to get on Joe Biden? New poll shows him with higher approval ratings than Hillary, and performing just as strongly in match-ups with the Republicans:
1. Hollande breaking ranks with Merkel over Greece is a gift to Le Pen. Massively increases the chances that Melechant (?sp Commie) voters will break for Le Pen rather than Hollande if they have that choice in the second round. There is a real risk that if Hollande makes it through to the second round (ie if the UMP don't get their act sorted) that Le Pen could win
2. The French have said that the migrants in Calais are a British problem and the border should be moved to make that clear. He felt the most equitable answer was for Britain to reaffirm its historical ownership of the town and surrounding region, thereby confirming that it is a British problem*
So after lunch instead of ordering that second bottle of Ott and gazing out over the majestic Mediterranean while contemplating your exquisite good fortune to be there, you write up your lunch from a political perspective?
Over almost 10 years, the Scottish Labour party slowly fell into disrepute and the UK Labour Leaders watched it happen through the Scottish election losses of 2007, then 2011 and finally the near wipe out of 2015. They were by standers at the car crash and failed to intervene.
Now we are watching the main, English, part of the Labour party slide into chaos and anarchy as it is inevitably taken over by the hard left who control the purse strings of its paymasters with a wave of student rebels. Roughly 10 years ago the Unions became the providors again of 2/3 of Labour's donations. That change has been the elephant in the room for Labour.
Extraordinary to watch. Meanwhile Harman, Cooper and Burnham etc seem to be oblivious to the changes that are under way. Just as they and the Ed Miliband "team" and Brown's team before that, watched the near death of SLAB so they watch the inevitable near death of the English Labour party.
Agree entirely with your first paragraph. However your final statement is not the near death of Labour, merely the final purge of the Blairite tendency within Labour.
The incentives should be such that Britain does not look like such an attractive place to be an illegal immigrant. If you do that, you dramatically reduce the need for barbed wire, and water cannons, and the like.
Completely agree, but it will take courage. 1. Change rules on welfare benefits where necessary, and be prepared to stand up to possible EU outrage/threats. 2. Be serious about tackling the employment of illegals. 3. Process all claims quickly and demonstrably fairly. 4. Be serious with the "human rights" industry 5. and most importantly... be proactive about finding and welcoming a significant number of genuinely desperate people (abandoned women with a couple of kids, Syrian Christians etc) to demonstrate humanitarian credentials.
The single most important thing is to clamp down on the labour blackmarket. These guys don't come here to earn £37/week and live 16 to a room in a dormitory in a asylum centre.
They want to get to London and work illegally in a restaraunt or at a minicab office or on a building site, where they get £300 cash in hand.
Yep. Mega fine for first offence and prison term for second for those employing illegal labour.
Agreed. Now the question is why is that not on the agenda?
Because people want something to be done about Calais NOW!
The most sensible solutions are, of course, much more nuanced.
The other question is, does the government want to fix the problem, or does it want to look like it is trying to fix the problem because at the moment it isn't even trying to look like it is trying to fix the problem
In France, it's €100,000 plus exclusion from public contracts for five years plus confiscation of assets plus imprisonment of up to 10 years for repeat offenders.
In Germany, you can be fined €500,000 and go to prison for three years.
I'm guessing that German and French firms are a little more reticent about hiring illegal workers than British ones.
Improve the conditions in the migrant donor states.
Educate in the migrant donor states.
Incentivise people to start business and trades in migrant donor states.
Use overseas aid budget in migrant donor states.
Make it harder to claim in UK
Issue permits for a fixed term after which they will be returned to migrant donor states.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
The loss of the motivated, resourceful and fit is detrimental to migrant donor states. A loss of a large quantity of young fit males is not helping local economic performance long term (applies to Poland and EU migration in particular as well as African, Asian and other regions).
Identify point of origin from DNA profile, don't accept no documentation as an impediment to repatriation to migrant donor states.
Allowing illegal immigration allows unscrupulous people to take advantage of the migrants for years to come. Stopping illegal immigration is important for the migrants.
What other collective noun would be acceptable instead of 'Swarm'?
Is the era of politically correct language drawing to a close?
Will Jo or Joe average be outraged by the use of swarm when they are fawning over the 'authenticity' of speech from Mr J Corbyn?
Major sources of migrants to Europe include Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Eritrea. Sadly, most of the non-British solutions you have mentioned rely on the goodwill of the local government, and don't apply to warzones. If you worsen conditions in the UK, some legal migrants will be caught in the crossfire and the illegal ones will probably still try to get to the UK where the economy is good.
As for collective nouns, I like "people".
a people of illegal immigrants ? not sure it trips off the tongue...
When does the Oxford Dictionary of Politically Correct Collective Nouns come out? Obviously there would have to be an appendix which explained that anything could be applied to British Tories.
In France, it's €100,000 plus exclusion from public contracts for five years plus confiscation of assets plus imprisonment of up to 10 years for repeat offenders.
In Germany, you can be fined €500,000 and go to prison for three years.
I'm guessing that German and French firms are a little more reticent about hiring illegal workers than British ones.
Could this, plus the minuscule chance of getting removed once your long winded asylum appeals fail be the real reason for the queues at the border?
Over almost 10 years, the Scottish Labour party slowly fell into disrepute and the UK Labour Leaders watched it happen through the Scottish election losses of 2007, then 2011 and finally the near wipe out of 2015. They were by standers at the car crash and failed to intervene.
Now we are watching the main, English, part of the Labour party slide into chaos and anarchy as it is inevitably taken over by the hard left who control the purse strings of its paymasters with a wave of student rebels. Roughly 10 years ago the Unions became the providors again of 2/3 of Labour's donations. That change has been the elephant in the room for Labour.
Extraordinary to watch. Meanwhile Harman, Cooper and Burnham etc seem to be oblivious to the changes that are under way. Just as they and the Ed Miliband "team" and Brown's team before that, watched the near death of SLAB so they watch the inevitable near death of the English Labour party.
Agree entirely with your first paragraph. However your final statement is not the near death of Labour, merely the final purge of the Blairite tendency within Labour.
We shall see. Michael Foot presided over a massive split and at the 1984 GE the Labour party came close to dropping to the 3rd biggest party of the UK. The SDP/Liberal Alliance was within 700,000 votes to out-polling Labour.
In France, it's €100,000 plus exclusion from public contracts for five years plus confiscation of assets plus imprisonment of up to 10 years for repeat offenders.
In Germany, you can be fined €500,000 and go to prison for three years.
I'm guessing that German and French firms are a little more reticent about hiring illegal workers than British ones.
Could this, plus the minuscule chance of getting removed once your long winded asylum appeals fail be the real reason for the queues at the border?
Switzerland appears to whack you with a year's imprisonment, even for a first offence...
In France, it's €100,000 plus exclusion from public contracts for five years plus confiscation of assets plus imprisonment of up to 10 years for repeat offenders.
In Germany, you can be fined €500,000 and go to prison for three years.
I'm guessing that German and French firms are a little more reticent about hiring illegal workers than British ones.
Could this, plus the minuscule chance of getting removed once your long winded asylum appeals fail be the real reason for the queues at the border?
Switzerland appears to whack you with a year's imprisonment, even for a first offence...
You appear to have hit the nail, squarely, on the head.
Time to get on Joe Biden? New poll shows him with higher approval ratings than Hillary, and performing just as strongly in match-ups with the Republicans:
No, for one very good reason. It's a number - 74, his age at the next election. He would be the oldest presidential candidate ever selected, not forgetting Reagan in 1984.
That's the reason he will be rejected. There will be no need to consider the fact that he is more gaffe-prone than Jeffrey Archer and has achieved less in office than Nick Clegg.
Anyone who doesn't compare Afghans to insects is just virtue signalling. Chortle!
Titter.
All this 'send in the army' bollox is the right-wing version of virtue signalling.
'I may be an overweight, reactionary computer-chair potato, but something must be done. If it's at the cost of someone else's blood or honour, so be it.'
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
Godwin's Law, or not, once people start demonising and caricaturing these economic migrants (swarms, thugs, criminals, aggressive, cowards) who are desperate enough to risk their lives to get into our country-
Err, except you're in lovely, largely immigrant free sunny Italy, because they don't linger there.
Godwin's Law, or not, once people start demonising and caricaturing these economic migrants (swarms, thugs, criminals, aggressive, cowards) who are desperate enough to risk their lives to get into our country- as almost all my pbCOM comrades are inclined to do the parallels with another era become stark.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
While you see nothing wrong with comparing people to mass murderers?
Even if it were not a completely false parallel, as has been pointed out numerous times, it is unedifying. There is no comparison between those who complain about people smashing their way into a fortified area and people who herded human beings into a gas chamber disguised as a shower room. Your comparisons are forced and frankly incredible. You do not support your argument - indeed, you completely undermine it - by such remarks.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
Godwin's Law, or not, once people start demonising and caricaturing these economic migrants (swarms, thugs, criminals, aggressive, cowards) who are desperate enough to risk their lives to get into our country-
Err, except you're in lovely, largely immigrant free sunny Italy, because they don't linger there.
It's hard to find an employer to illegally hire you in Italy: the penalty is "incarceration for a period ranging from six months to three years"
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
Godwin's Law, or not, once people start demonising and caricaturing these economic migrants (swarms, thugs, criminals, aggressive, cowards) who are desperate enough to risk their lives to get into our country-
Err, except you're in lovely, largely immigrant free sunny Italy, because they don't linger there.
It's hard to find an employer to illegally hire you in Italy: the penalty is "incarceration for a period ranging from six months to three years"
Oooh, the Italians are clever. If you are an illegal immigrant, and you get a job and then denounce your employer then you get granted a residence permit! With such an incentive, no wonder Italian firms are so careful not to hire illegals.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Given that you have told us that you tell the Eritreans whom you are helping in Italy to go to London i.e. far away from you where someone else has the burden, you are displaying mightily little compassion yourself and you are being pretty sick and disgusting in accusing others of being like Nazis.
Quite a number of us have expressed understanding and a willingness to help and give refuge to genuine refugees. We don't, however, assume that those with the sharpest elbows are those with the greatest need.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
Godwin's Law, or not, once people start demonising and caricaturing these economic migrants (swarms, thugs, criminals, aggressive, cowards) who are desperate enough to risk their lives to get into our country-
Err, except you're in lovely, largely immigrant free sunny Italy, because they don't linger there.
And the immigrants going to Italy,Tyson wants them to go to England,unbelievable.
It's hard to find an employer to illegally hire you in Italy: the penalty is "incarceration for a period ranging from six months to three years"
Oooh, the Italians are clever. If you are an illegal immigrant, and you get a job and then denounce your employer then you get granted a residence permit! With such an incentive, no wonder Italian firms are so careful not to hire illegals.
If they did that here, it might kill off the queues at the tunnel.
Whether they should do it here, is another question.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
Godwin's Law, or not, once people start demonising and caricaturing these economic migrants (swarms, thugs, criminals, aggressive, cowards) who are desperate enough to risk their lives to get into our country-
Err, except you're in lovely, largely immigrant free sunny Italy, because they don't linger there.
And the immigrants going to Italy,Tyson wants them to go to England,unbelievable.
He doesn't like them clogging up the sleepy little piazzas where he whiles away the summer afternoons.
Tim (not that Tim) Ireland is facing a £150,000 legal bill after the High Court threw out his petition to have to Nadine Dorries’ election in Mid-Bedfordshire voided.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
Godwin's Law, or not, once people start demonising and caricaturing these economic migrants (swarms, thugs, criminals, aggressive, cowards) who are desperate enough to risk their lives to get into our country- as almost all my pbCOM comrades are inclined to do the parallels with another era become stark.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
In what way is 'swarm' derogatory?
In my lexicon it is a word that implies numbers or groups as opposed to individuals. The use by Cameron to describe the flow of people over the Med seems descriptive. You may not have noticed, but there is a problem. Describe that problem to make it real and people understand the scale of it. Use the expression 'there is a trickle of people in boats from Africa to Europe', and you hide the problem. You minimise it. Call it a swarm and it is visually stronger. You are highlighting a problem.
Having compassion for migrants is not definitively the same as giving them what they want, such as allowing them in. There are other ways to have compassion and to help them.
Allowing them in as illegal migrants is harmful for almost every future aspect of the life they desire. Housing, benefits, employment, how are any of those helped by having illegal immigrant as your status? It opens the road to deprivation, misery exploitation and hardship.
It is simplistic and easy to say, as you do so effortlessly, 'I'm the good guy who says let them in, all of you are heartless bastards'. You are just wrong on every point and level.
noun 1. a body of honeybees that emigrate from a hive and fly off together, accompanied by a queen, to start a new colony. 2. a body of bees settled together, as in a hive. 3. a great number of things or persons, especially in motion. 4. Biology. a group or aggregation of free-floating or free-swimming cells or organisms. 5. Geology. a cluster of earthquakes or other geologic phenomena or features.
So, I suppose DC's usage might be OK etymologically, but I suspect we was thinking entomologically. Was he for once delivering a genuine opinion?
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You've foregone all rights to be treated with any seriousness when you come out with crap like that.
But then, you'd foregone that right already. In Tyson World, you'd reward those who are the strongest, richest, most conniving and unscrupulous - with a home in England.
Wow. You are the one whose morals need some examining.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
I have a great deal of compassion for them, and feel conflicted about what can be done to help them while not encouraging unlawful behaviour - what the hell does that have to do with you making final solution gags? Is it not possible to vigorously object to the 'lack of compassion' you see without implying those holding those views are comparable to Nazis? Because they really really are not, and it undermines any argument for compassion you are making.
Fighting their way across the continent of Europe, ignoring the temptations of Roger's pied-a-terre, laughing at Tyson's Italian BTL, nothing daunts these brave warriors. Spurred on by the virtue-signalling of Burnham and Harman, ignoring the blandishments of German welfare benefits, they laugh at danger, pushing aside the weak and helpless to reach the promised land.
It would be interesting to see some polling on the British public's opinion. I suspect it won't be good news for any of the parties.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Apart from your manufactured outrage, what is your view of the current immigration crisis?
@copper- in the short term- I think we should have a managed system for those getting through to Greece in Italy and disperse them around the EU in an orderly fashion. Italy and Greece would them be much predisposed for registering them properly instead of turning a blind eye and letting them take their chances- which invariably causes this chaos at Calais. From memory Cameron wouldn't even entertain this at all, even though Renzi was proposing it.
In the longer term obviously we need to support Libya's return into something that resembles a state, and continue to try and support the economic development of these poor African countries.
@jimwaterson: Diane Abbott sent a text to Labour members using Jeremy Corbyn's name, saying he has endorsed her. Except he hasn't. http://t.co/yoNguvyL4l
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
Um... if this guy has been found to have not been lying, doesn't that mean.....
He's been found not guilty of perverting the course of justice (unfortunate choice of phrase). Not quite the same thing. A guilty verdict would have required that the jury considered, beyond reasonable doubt, Fellows had deliberately lied in a bid to have Clarke prosecuted and imprisoned. The jury may well have taken a view that the evidence was insufficient to prove that, or that the incident never happened but Fellows believed it had and was therefore not 'lying' in the classic sense. We didn't see what happened in court, and his demeanour may have been a factor (or, of course, may not). If he came across as a fantasist who believed that pixies cause unemployment, for example, that would have nudged them towards 'not guilty.'
If Clarke had sued for libel and Fellows had been found not guilty, that would indeed suggest the jury had believed Fellows. But he didn't. He may do so now, of course, but I think it unlikely - it would only take a lot of time and energy and candidly whether he is innocent or not in the current atmosphere most people would probably assume Fellows was telling the truth even if Fellows said in court that he had lied.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
You're signalling your own virtue now, by exhorting alleged layabouts to get up of their bums. "Action not words" is a conservative virtue which people like to signal by telling others what to do and being disgusted when they don't agree.
Dave or the Donald, which one has most* credibilty with the Scottish voter? A question to send the Gods mad.
*least
I'm going with Dave, have you forgotten it's less than a year when a majority of Scottish voters said they wanted to keep on subsiding England and continue to be ruled by Dave from London.
We were told it was a once in a lifetime decision or something.
Um... if this guy has been found to have not been lying, doesn't that mean.....
He's been found not guilty of perverting the course of justice (unfortunate choice of phrase). Not quite the same thing. A guilty verdict would have required that the jury considered, beyond reasonable doubt, Fellows had deliberately lied in a bid to have Clarke prosecuted and imprisoned. The jury may well have taken a view that the evidence was insufficient to prove that, or that the incident never happened but Fellows believed it had and was therefore not 'lying' in the classic sense. We didn't see what happened in court, and his demeanour may have been a factor (or, of course, may not). If he came across as a fantasist who believed that pixies cause unemployment, for example, that would have nudged them towards 'not guilty.'
If Clarke had sued for libel and Fellows had been found not guilty, that would indeed suggest the jury had believed Fellows. But he didn't. He may do so now, of course, but I think it unlikely - it would only take a lot of time and energy and candidly whether he is innocent or not in the current atmosphere most people would probably assume Fellows was telling the truth even if Fellows said in court that he had lied.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
You're signalling your own virtue now, by exhorting alleged layabouts to get up of their bums. "Action not words" is a conservative virtue which people like to signal by telling others what to do and being disgusted when they don't agree.
We can see the left prefer talk to action. Three terms of Blair, 170+ majority, f*ck all achieved.
Dave or the Donald, which one has most* credibilty with the Scottish voter? A question to send the Gods mad.
*least
I'm going with Dave, have you forgotten it's less than a year when a majority of Scottish voters said they wanted to keep on subsiding England and continue to be ruled by Dave from London.
We were told it was a once in a lifetime decision or something.
Once in the lifetime of many of the over 65s, certainly.
Dave or the Donald, which one has most* credibilty with the Scottish voter? A question to send the Gods mad.
*least
I'm going with Dave, have you forgotten it's less than a year when a majority of Scottish voters said they wanted to keep on subsiding England and continue to be ruled by Dave from London.
We were told it was a once in a lifetime decision or something.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
@Indigo- actually as far as I can see, I'm the only person here who actually spends significant amount of time with the migrants from Eritrea and Africa. Of course I give them money, but I also make a point to try and get to know them. This is probably the main reason why I get a bit upset when people around seem so judgmental- they don't know them, they don't know their stories...
It is funny how a personal relationship can alter your perspective. Anne Widdecombe and David Davis have both been champions of people caught on the wrong side of the asylum system.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
You're signalling your own virtue now, by exhorting alleged layabouts to get up of their bums. "Action not words" is a conservative virtue which people like to signal by telling others what to do and being disgusted when they don't agree.
We can see the left prefer talk to action. Three terms of Blair, 170+ majority, f*ck all achieved.
Classic virtue signalling by criticising "the left" to appear virtuous in front of the PB mainstream, even when irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Um... if this guy has been found to have not been lying, doesn't that mean.....
I don't think his acquittal necessarily proves that his allegations are true. The prosecution could not prove beyond reasonable doubt that Ben Fellowes wilfully and knowingly provided a false statement to the police.
Pay a few grand, repatriate and make them wealthy in migrant donor states.
How will that discourage anyone? It's an incentive.
I think I said solutions, not disincentives.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
There is of course a final solution. A very cheap and most effective way to deal with swarms of unwanted undesirables.
You really are sick.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
You're signalling your own virtue now, by exhorting alleged layabouts to get up of their bums. "Action not words" is a conservative virtue which people like to signal by telling others what to do and being disgusted when they don't agree.
We can see the left prefer talk to action. Three terms of Blair, 170+ majority, f*ck all achieved.
Classic virtue signalling by criticising "the left" to appear virtuous in front of the PB mainstream, even when irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Jeremy Corbyn (133) Andy Burnham (106) Yvette Cooper (100) Liz Kendall (15)
Corbyn continuing to pull away from Burnham, plus two more Labour affiliated unions backing him today. Of course CLP nominations mean very little in and of themselves, but they are always nice to have. Kendall looks toast.
@copper- in the short term- I think we should have a managed system for those getting through to Greece in Italy and disperse them around the EU in an orderly fashion.
I think that would work for genuine asylum seekers, who would be glad to settle anywhere in the EU.
The economic migrants wouldn't stay dispersed though. They'd still go to Calais, unless the UK takes stronger measures as suggested upthread.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
@Indigo- actually as far as I can see, I'm the only person here who actually spends significant amount of time with the migrants from Eritrea and Africa. Of course I give them money, but I also make a point to try and get to know them.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Well then - do you think that we should EVERY migrant from ANYWHERE in the world to come here and be supported by the UK?
If you say NO then you are no better than those you are criticising because all you are really doing is quibbling over where to draw the line.
What's sickening is Tyson's insistence that we help those of criminal intent, when so many others, who wish to play by the rules, are in more genuine and deserving need.
Cut through the wire at Coquelles, and you go to the back of the queue.
1. Hollande breaking ranks with Merkel over Greece is a gift to Le Pen. Massively increases the chances that Melechant (?sp Commie) voters will break for Le Pen rather than Hollande if they have that choice in the second round. There is a real risk that if Hollande makes it through to the second round (ie if the UMP don't get their act sorted) that Le Pen could win
2. The French have said that the migrants in Calais are a British problem and the border should be moved to make that clear. He felt the most equitable answer was for Britain to reaffirm its historical ownership of the town and surrounding region, thereby confirming that it is a British problem*
So after lunch instead of ordering that second bottle of Ott and gazing out over the majestic Mediterranean while contemplating your exquisite good fortune to be there, you write up your lunch from a political perspective?
"Compassion" is a complete red herring in most political arguments, but definitely so here. Mostly because its incredibly easy to signal compassion while doing absolutely nothing.
What's sickening is Tyson's insistence that we help those of criminal intent,
Of course, by accepting migrants without question all we do is fuel demand and make money for the trafficking gangs who ruthlessly exploit the migrants and sometimes cause their deaths.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
"@Indigo- actually as far as I can see, I'm the only person here who actually spends significant amount of time with the migrants from Eritrea and Africa. Of course I give them money, but I also make a point to try and get to know them. This is probably the main reason why I get a bit upset when people around seem so judgmental- they don't know them, they don't know their stories...
It is funny how a personal relationship can alter your perspective. Anne Widdecombe and David Davis have both been champions of people caught on the wrong side of the asylum system."
How the hell do you know what the rest of us do? A good friend of mine is a legal immigrant from Zimbabwe married to a delightful man from Eritrea. They both had to go through endless hoops to live here - and did so legally. Their back stories are atrocious. They have a little girl. He has set up a company; they both work hard, do charitable work for others in a similar position and are an asset to this country. It is people like that who are most furious with those like the people in Calais who give genuine refugees a bad name and who try and get ahead of the queue through illegal means.
Lots of people have terrible stories. Our laws and our immigration policy are not based on who has the most heartrending story. That is false sentimentality peddled by those who rarely have to live with the consequences of their self-righeous emoting over the tragedies of others.
A British government owes its first duty to British citizens in Britain.
Comments
And of course there is another book by Geoffrey Wheatcroft called 'The Strange Death of Tory England' which completely wrongly claimed that Macleod and Home had contended for the leadership in 1963 and that the Tory splits began from that...
The most sensible solutions are, of course, much more nuanced.
Cheaper and quicker than legal fees.
As for collective nouns, I like "people".
Corbo 2.32
AB 3.5
YC 3.65
LK 70
Corbo odds on by the weekend ?
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/hillary-clinton-poll-trump-2015-7
Good god man get a grip.
In the UK, you might (might) get fined £20,000.
In France, it's €100,000 plus exclusion from public contracts for five years plus confiscation of assets plus imprisonment of up to 10 years for repeat offenders.
In Germany, you can be fined €500,000 and go to prison for three years.
I'm guessing that German and French firms are a little more reticent about hiring illegal workers than British ones.
Biden +10
Walker +9
Sanders +7
Bush +2
Clinton -11
Trump -32
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/hillary-clinton-poll-trump-2015-7
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
That's the reason he will be rejected. There will be no need to consider the fact that he is more gaffe-prone than Jeffrey Archer and has achieved less in office than Nick Clegg.
"Work with the French..."
I think I see the flaw in your solution.
All this 'send in the army' bollox is the right-wing version of virtue signalling.
'I may be an overweight, reactionary computer-chair potato, but something must be done. If it's at the cost of someone else's blood or honour, so be it.'
Are you friends with Billy Bragg by chance?
P.S. I am not your "comrade". The Rentier Capitalist class are no comrades of mine.
Edit:
Even if it were not a completely false parallel, as has been pointed out numerous times, it is unedifying. There is no comparison between those who complain about people smashing their way into a fortified area and people who herded human beings into a gas chamber disguised as a shower room. Your comparisons are forced and frankly incredible. You do not support your argument - indeed, you completely undermine it - by such remarks.
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/626761781147529216
Quite a number of us have expressed understanding and a willingness to help and give refuge to genuine refugees. We don't, however, assume that those with the sharpest elbows are those with the greatest need.
If they did that here, it might kill off the queues at the tunnel.
Whether they should do it here, is another question.
http://bit.ly/1eD1lrF
Incoming
In my lexicon it is a word that implies numbers or groups as opposed to individuals.
The use by Cameron to describe the flow of people over the Med seems descriptive. You may not have noticed, but there is a problem. Describe that problem to make it real and people understand the scale of it. Use the expression 'there is a trickle of people in boats from Africa to Europe', and you hide the problem. You minimise it. Call it a swarm and it is visually stronger. You are highlighting a problem.
Having compassion for migrants is not definitively the same as giving them what they want, such as allowing them in. There are other ways to have compassion and to help them.
Allowing them in as illegal migrants is harmful for almost every future aspect of the life they desire. Housing, benefits, employment, how are any of those helped by having illegal immigrant as your status? It opens the road to deprivation, misery exploitation and hardship.
It is simplistic and easy to say, as you do so effortlessly, 'I'm the good guy who says let them in, all of you are heartless bastards'. You are just wrong on every point and level.
Any of our judicial friends have a view?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-33724010
But then, you'd foregone that right already. In Tyson World, you'd reward those who are the strongest, richest, most conniving and unscrupulous - with a home in England.
Wow. You are the one whose morals need some examining.
I would have been concerned as a Tory with Kendall winning. I'm concerned as a British citizen that Corbyn might.
(Principle yes, wisdom no.)
Fighting their way across the continent of Europe, ignoring the temptations of Roger's pied-a-terre, laughing at Tyson's Italian BTL, nothing daunts these brave warriors. Spurred on by the virtue-signalling of Burnham and Harman, ignoring the blandishments of German welfare benefits, they laugh at danger, pushing aside the weak and helpless to reach the promised land.
It would be interesting to see some polling on the British public's opinion. I suspect it won't be good news for any of the parties.
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Apart from your manufactured outrage, what is your view of the current immigration crisis?
@copper- in the short term- I think we should have a managed system for those getting through to Greece in Italy and disperse them around the EU in an orderly fashion.
Italy and Greece would them be much predisposed for registering them properly instead of turning a blind eye and letting them take their chances- which invariably causes this chaos at Calais. From memory Cameron wouldn't even entertain this at all, even though Renzi was proposing it.
In the longer term obviously we need to support Libya's return into something that resembles a state, and continue to try and support the economic development of these poor African countries.
*least
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11773588/Ken-Clarke-groping-accuser-found-not-guilty-of-making-a-false-claim.html
If Clarke had sued for libel and Fellows had been found not guilty, that would indeed suggest the jury had believed Fellows. But he didn't. He may do so now, of course, but I think it unlikely - it would only take a lot of time and energy and candidly whether he is innocent or not in the current atmosphere most people would probably assume Fellows was telling the truth even if Fellows said in court that he had lied.
We were told it was a once in a lifetime decision or something.
Does it involve them paying £3 and signing up as Labour members to vote for Jeremy Corbyn?
I actually find it sick and disgusting just how little compassion people on this site have for these desperate migrants.
Some people sit in the cheap seats in Italy flaunting their virtue, others get other their asses and help people in need. I know which I find more disgusting.
@Indigo- actually as far as I can see, I'm the only person here who actually spends significant amount of time with the migrants from Eritrea and Africa. Of course I give them money, but I also make a point to try and get to know them. This is probably the main reason why I get a bit upset when people around seem so judgmental- they don't know them, they don't know their stories...
It is funny how a personal relationship can alter your perspective. Anne Widdecombe and David Davis have both been champions of people caught on the wrong side of the asylum system.
Jeremy Corbyn (133)
Andy Burnham (106)
Yvette Cooper (100)
Liz Kendall (15)
Corbyn continuing to pull away from Burnham, plus two more Labour affiliated unions backing him today. Of course CLP nominations mean very little in and of themselves, but they are always nice to have. Kendall looks toast.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/which-clps-are-nominating-who-labour-leadership-contest
The economic migrants wouldn't stay dispersed though. They'd still go to Calais, unless the UK takes stronger measures as suggested upthread.
@Indigo- actually as far as I can see, I'm the only person here who actually spends significant amount of time with the migrants from Eritrea and Africa. Of course I give them money, but I also make a point to try and get to know them.
'A capuccino please Almaz. Here's €5'
If you say NO then you are no better than those you are criticising because all you are really doing is quibbling over where to draw the line.
Chris : "My manager has forbidden me to look at the score. Not because it's wasting work time but because he has tickets for Saturday"
Come on without, come on within,
You ain't seen nothing like the Mighty Finn.
Cut through the wire at Coquelles, and you go to the back of the queue.
Anderson 4/5
Finn 4/1
Warner 8/1
Lyon 16/1
Johnson 20/1
33/1 bar
It doesn't mean we have to let them all in.
We also have responsibilities and obligations to the people of this country.
"@Indigo- actually as far as I can see, I'm the only person here who actually spends significant amount of time with the migrants from Eritrea and Africa. Of course I give them money, but I also make a point to try and get to know them. This is probably the main reason why I get a bit upset when people around seem so judgmental- they don't know them, they don't know their stories...
It is funny how a personal relationship can alter your perspective. Anne Widdecombe and David Davis have both been champions of people caught on the wrong side of the asylum system."
How the hell do you know what the rest of us do? A good friend of mine is a legal immigrant from Zimbabwe married to a delightful man from Eritrea. They both had to go through endless hoops to live here - and did so legally. Their back stories are atrocious. They have a little girl. He has set up a company; they both work hard, do charitable work for others in a similar position and are an asset to this country. It is people like that who are most furious with those like the people in Calais who give genuine refugees a bad name and who try and get ahead of the queue through illegal means.
Lots of people have terrible stories. Our laws and our immigration policy are not based on who has the most heartrending story. That is false sentimentality peddled by those who rarely have to live with the consequences of their self-righeous emoting over the tragedies of others.
A British government owes its first duty to British citizens in Britain.