But if something tends to be in your interest, yes usually you are sympathetic to it. Teenagers (the main people who will be politically aware of Gove's policies) aren't total idiots.
Maybe they are not idiots. Maybe they oppose his reforms (I'm not sure that is true, actually, but let's assume it). Maybe they correctly identify that his policies won't work, or will make things worse.
Even if we grant all that, what on earth has it got to do with the question of Gove's motives, or whether he cares about young people?
On his motives, I've said I think he's an idealogue - i.e. far more interested in pursuing an ideaological agenda on education than anything else.
You are upsetting the old farts, they think they are very clever so you will now be attacked for being young and stupid
Yeah Malc G what's your excuse?
Difference is Felix I am an intelligent old fart , more than able for the half witted donkeys on here. AS you should know sarcasm is the lowest for of wit, you make the grade as lower than a rattlesnakes belly.
But if something tends to be in your interest, yes usually you are sympathetic to it. Teenagers (the main people who will be politically aware of Gove's policies) aren't total idiots.
Maybe they are not idiots. Maybe they oppose his reforms (I'm not sure that is true, actually, but let's assume it). Maybe they correctly identify that his policies won't work, or will make things worse.
Even if we grant all that, what on earth has it got to do with the question of Gove's motives, or whether he cares about young people?
On his motives, I've said I think he's an idealogue - i.e. far more interested in pursuing an ideaological agenda on education than anything else.
You are upsetting the old farts, they think they are very clever so you will now be attacked for being young and stupid
Yeah Malc G what's your excuse?
Difference is Felix I am an intelligent old fart , more than able for the half witted donkeys on here. AS you should know sarcasm is the lowest for of wit, you make the grade as lower than a rattlesnakes belly.
A minority of several millions - 30-35% is pretty vast. And since everyone eventually gets old we can see the pattern that political wisdom is acquired as they get older and then vote Tory in even vaster numbers
Millions! - According to British Future, 3.3m young people were eligible to vote. On a 43% turnout that's less than half of that figure. That means that the amount of young people voting Tory certainly isn't in the several millions.
As for older voters, well I guess you could say people become more fearful of change, and that's partly a reason for conservative attitudes among those 60+.
Older people vote Tory, because with age comes wisdom.
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
So what about people like me who voted for Michael Howard's Conservatives in 2005 at the age of 18?
I was talking of all elections (I just thought the most recent GE might be most relevant) - young people generally, in seemingly most generations don't tend to vote Tory. You can add up all young people at all general elections to argue vast numbers are voting Tory, but that's a bit disingenuous given that the generation of young voters changes at each election.
I don't assume non-voters are all hostile to the Tories - just that they aren't Tories.
A question: when CLP tallies are reported they are often less than 50-60 votes all told. Are the number of CLP members rearly that small, or do very few bother taking part? TIA.
I thought it might be interesting to see how many London and Scottish CLPs voted for JC out of the 107 noted above. It's 21 London, 14 Scotland. Unfortunately I don't think that's particularly interesting. I suspect it's disproportionate but I'm not prepared to do the maths. Perhaps The Apocalypse could help us out given her obvious and recent grasp of the requirements.
A question: when CLP tallies are reported they are often less than 50-60 votes all told. Are the number of CLP members rearly that small, or do very few bother taking part? TIA.
I thought it might be interesting to see how many London and Scottish CLPs voted for JC out of the 107 noted above. It's 21 London, 14 Scotland. Unfortunately I don't think that's particularly interesting. I suspect it's disproportionate but I'm not prepared to do the maths. Perhaps The Apocalypse could help us out given her obvious and recent grasp of the requirements.
A disproportionate number of Kendalls nominations are from London Methinks
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
So what about people like me who voted for Michael Howard's Conservatives in 2005 at the age of 18?
I did do English at school (I even did at A-level!) - it was never a term that came up, ever. If you ask most young people I guarantee you they wouldn't have heard of the term.
A minority of several millions - 30-35% is pretty vast. And since everyone eventually gets old we can see the pattern that political wisdom is acquired as they get older and then vote Tory in even vaster numbers
Millions! - According to British Future, 3.3m young people were eligible to vote. On a 43% turnout that's less than half of that figure. That means that the amount of young people voting Tory certainly isn't in the several millions.
As for older voters, well I guess you could say people become more fearful of change, and that's partly a reason for conservative attitudes among those 60+.
Older people vote Tory, because with age comes wisdom.
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
I was talking of all elections (I just thought the most recent GE might be most relevant) - young people generally, in seemingly most generations don't tend to vote Tory. You can add up all young people at all general elections to argue vast numbers are voting Tory, but that's a bit disingenuous given that the generation of young voters changes at each election.
I don't assume non-voters are all hostile to the Tories - just that they aren't Tories.
Then you need to re-visit your assumptions. Like so many on the left at the moment you are projecting your frustration at losing the election into a rather retro 'let's all blame the Tories vibe'. It's far easier than considering why Labour did so badly
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
So what about people like me who voted for Michael Howard's Conservatives in 2005 at the age of 18?
Sad really.
It was a good thing for the Tories that they didn't win that election. I can't remember much about it but what I seem to remember is a sense that Labour were promising to spend lots of money on public services and daring the Tories to oppose them.
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
So what about people like me who voted for Michael Howard's Conservatives in 2005 at the age of 18?
Then you need to re-visit your assumptions. Like so many on the left at the moment you are projecting your frustration at losing the election into a rather retro 'let's all blame the Tories vibe'. It's far easier than considering why Labour did so badly
I don't really see what that has do with the topic of how many young people vote Tory. You can say (with evidence) that young people don't tend to vote Tory and analyse why Labour did badly. Both are possible.
IIRC it's mentioned in the STimes today as a quote from an unnamed Labour MP that CLP memberships have doubled to 75ish and half are new faces/known Other Party lefties.
A question: when CLP tallies are reported they are often less than 50-60 votes all told. Are the number of CLP members rearly that small, or do very few bother taking part? TIA.
Membership in 2010-15 hovered in the 190000 region, and it's now nearer 250000. Dividing by 650 gives you 400-odd per constituency. Of those, the nomination meetings attract only a moderate percentage since they're not actually doing anything decisive (ours got 180 members out of 1800) so a turnout of 40-60 wouldn't be unusual, though I think turnout is higher in less urban constituencies. This does raise the question of how useful nomination counts are in predicting the outcome - a hint but not a decisive one, I'd say.
I did do English at school (I even did at A-level!) - it was never a term that came up, ever. If you ask most young people I guarantee you they wouldn't have heard of the term.
Then you need to re-visit your assumptions. Like so many on the left at the moment you are projecting your frustration at losing the election into a rather retro 'let's all blame the Tories vibe'. It's far easier than considering why Labour did so badly
I don't really see what that has do with the topic of how many young people vote Tory. You can say (with evidence) that young people don't tend to vote Tory and analyse why Labour did badly. Both are possible.
A minority of several millions - 30-35% is pretty vast. And since everyone eventually gets old we can see the pattern that political wisdom is acquired as they get older and then vote Tory in even vaster numbers
Millions! - According to British Future, 3.3m young people were eligible to vote. On a 43% turnout that's less than half of that figure. That means that the amount of young people voting Tory certainly isn't in the several millions.
As for older voters, well I guess you could say people become more fearful of change, and that's partly a reason for conservative attitudes among those 60+.
Older people vote Tory, because with age comes wisdom.
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
That's one of the dumbest sweeping generalisations I've read on here. And I've been here since 2006.
I worry far more about my children than myself; more so as I get older. I want them to have the opportunities that I had, and then some. Sadly, that's not likely. I doubt very much whether I'm alone.
I did do English at school (I even did at A-level!) - it was never a term that came up, ever. If you ask most young people I guarantee you they wouldn't have heard of the term.
An early highlight of this fully revised millennium edition of Brewer's is Terry Pratchett's short, sweetly ironic preface. It's entirely appropriate, given Brewer's has been the bread-and-butter of curious, self-educated working men and women for 130 years, and that this decade's great demotic writer should be invited to watch the dust settle on yet another deposit of curious knowledge. ("It's an education in itself, seeing [the Fab Four] take their place with old Roman senators and mythological fauna ... ").
I did do English at school (I even did at A-level!) - it was never a term that came up, ever. If you ask most young people I guarantee you they wouldn't have heard of the term.
An early highlight of this fully revised millennium edition of Brewer's is Terry Pratchett's short, sweetly ironic preface. It's entirely appropriate, given Brewer's has been the bread-and-butter of curious, self-educated working men and women for 130 years, and that this decade's great demotic writer should be invited to watch the dust settle on yet another deposit of curious knowledge. ("It's an education in itself, seeing [the Fab Four] take their place with old Roman senators and mythological fauna ... ").
It is splendid. Many gambling, military, nautical terms and also a mindboggling variety of subspecialist underworld terms.
I have a copy already! :-)
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
Interesting breaking down those Times Yougov figures today. Burnham does best in England and Wales followed by Kendall, but it is Corbyn's very high net +7% in Scotland which increases his score from third to tied first (though Corbyn also has a net positive in London)
An early highlight of this fully revised millennium edition of Brewer's is Terry Pratchett's short, sweetly ironic preface. It's entirely appropriate, given Brewer's has been the bread-and-butter of curious, self-educated working men and women for 130 years, and that this decade's great demotic writer should be invited to watch the dust settle on yet another deposit of curious knowledge. ("It's an education in itself, seeing [the Fab Four] take their place with old Roman senators and mythological fauna ... ").
It is splendid. Many gambling, military, nautical terms and also a mindboggling variety of subspecialist underworld terms.
I have a copy already! :-)
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
My med school union was pretty apolitical, but Fox jr is doing a social science degree and his union is fairly political. Mostly on green, internationalist, feminist and LBGT issues though rather than party political. He likes Corbyn.
I'm not surprised - I get the feeling that's where student politics is at. Very few are wedged to a political party these days, although Greens tend to be quite vocal. Some of that would describe my politics - I'm pretty big on feminist and LBGT issues.
Interesting to hear your son likes Corbyn. I think among young people he's quite popular. I was talking to a friend on Friday, she's much more left-wing than I am, and she loves Corbyn (and actually thinks he can win an election).
I think Corbyn could get a lot more youngsters engaged in politics. He may recapture a lot of the Green vote and some of the CBAs.
Fox jr is more interested in the internationalist agenda. Form seeing Corbyn on Marr this morning I think Corbyn will be on the BOI side. He wants Europe to have more of a say in the social protection issues. Will not sit with the kippers. His young acolytes are pro EU too.
A friend of mine has just posted on Facebook that Corbyn is the only one who might make him vote Labour for the first time. He was a UKIP/Tory waverer in May....
Well, I might stick with Labour if Corbyn wins. If any of the three muppets win, I may go back to the Tories.
you are obviously one of the new classification, a drowning voter?
I've always got the impression that Sunil prefers to defy classification.
The only classifications I like are those for trains
Interesting breaking down those Times Yougov figures today. Burnham does best in England and Wales followed by Kendall, but it is Corbyn's very high net +7% in Scotland which increases his score from third to tied first (though Corbyn also has a net positive in London)
Miss Plato, I got a very slightly old one (1990s, I think) when I passed a bookshop that was closing down. It described Zimbabwe as the breadbasket of Africa.
A minority of several millions - 30-35% is pretty vast. And since everyone eventually gets old we can see the pattern that political wisdom is acquired as they get older and then vote Tory in even vaster numbers
Millions! - According to British Future, 3.3m young people were eligible to vote. On a 43% turnout that's less than half of that figure. That means that the amount of young people voting Tory certainly isn't in the several millions.
As for older voters, well I guess you could say people become more fearful of change, and that's partly a reason for conservative attitudes among those 60+.
Older people vote Tory, because with age comes wisdom.
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
That's one of the dumbest sweeping generalisations I've read on here. And I've been here since 2006.
I worry far more about my children than myself; more so as I get older. I want them to have the opportunities that I had, and then some. Sadly, that's not likely. I doubt very much whether I'm alone.
John M- sweeping generalisation or not, older people become more childlike as they get older as their independence fails. It is Shakespeare's Seven Ages of Man I was alluding to.
I wouldn't worry too much about your children. The future for them with advancement in technology, and healthcare will be a marvellous thing, and for their children even better.
An early highlight of this fully revised millennium edition of Brewer's is Terry Pratchett's short, sweetly ironic preface. It's entirely appropriate, given Brewer's has been the bread-and-butter of curious, self-educated working men and women for 130 years, and that this decade's great demotic writer should be invited to watch the dust settle on yet another deposit of curious knowledge. ("It's an education in itself, seeing [the Fab Four] take their place with old Roman senators and mythological fauna ... ").
It is splendid. Many gambling, military, nautical terms and also a mindboggling variety of subspecialist underworld terms.
I have a copy already! :-)
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
I have the original edition of Colonel Cobb's 2006 atlas that shows in detail the routes of all British rail lines built before 1994 - the one that's due to be updated soon
An early highlight of this fully revised millennium edition of Brewer's is Terry Pratchett's short, sweetly ironic preface. It's entirely appropriate, given Brewer's has been the bread-and-butter of curious, self-educated working men and women for 130 years, and that this decade's great demotic writer should be invited to watch the dust settle on yet another deposit of curious knowledge. ("It's an education in itself, seeing [the Fab Four] take their place with old Roman senators and mythological fauna ... ").
It is splendid. Many gambling, military, nautical terms and also a mindboggling variety of subspecialist underworld terms.
I have a copy already! :-)
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
I often buy atlases on holiday, for example a school atlas of the Caribbean from Antigua, and one from Malawi too. These are quite an insight into how each nation views the world.
A minority of several millions - 30-35% is pretty vast. And since everyone eventually gets old we can see the pattern that political wisdom is acquired as they get older and then vote Tory in even vaster numbers
Millions! - According to British Future, 3.3m young people were eligible to vote. On a 43% turnout that's less than half of that figure. That means that the amount of young people voting Tory certainly isn't in the several millions.
As for older voters, well I guess you could say people become more fearful of change, and that's partly a reason for conservative attitudes among those 60+.
Older people vote Tory, because with age comes wisdom.
People grow reactionary with age, scared of modernity, fearful of change, closed minded, self protective, and as a result more focussed on self. The four stages of man. As the body and mind fails it is a natural phenomenon and happens to us all. Right wing politics understands this. Twas ever thus.
That's one of the dumbest sweeping generalisations I've read on here. And I've been here since 2006.
I worry far more about my children than myself; more so as I get older. I want them to have the opportunities that I had, and then some. Sadly, that's not likely. I doubt very much whether I'm alone.
John M- sweeping generalisation or not, older people become more childlike as they get older as their independence fails. It is Shakespeare's Seven Ages of Man I was alluding to.
I wouldn't worry too much about your children. The future for them with advancement in technology, and healthcare will be a marvellous thing, and for their children even better.
My newest edition is 2005ish. I used to love Whitaker's Almanack. We always had the latest in the house and a fascinating contemporary round-up it was. I really must get them again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitaker's_Almanack
Whitaker's Almanack is a reference book, published annually in the United Kingdom. The book was originally published by J Whitaker & Sons from 1868 to 1997, then by The Stationery Office until 2003, and then by A & C Black which became a wholly owned subsidiary of Bloomsbury Publishing in 2011. The 147th edition of Whitaker's was published on 20 November 2014.[1]
Miss Plato, I got a very slightly old one (1990s, I think) when I passed a bookshop that was closing down. It described Zimbabwe as the breadbasket of Africa.
An early highlight of this fully revised millennium edition of Brewer's is Terry Pratchett's short, sweetly ironic preface. It's entirely appropriate, given Brewer's has been the bread-and-butter of curious, self-educated working men and women for 130 years, and that this decade's great demotic writer should be invited to watch the dust settle on yet another deposit of curious knowledge. ("It's an education in itself, seeing [the Fab Four] take their place with old Roman senators and mythological fauna ... ").
It is splendid. Many gambling, military, nautical terms and also a mindboggling variety of subspecialist underworld terms.
I have a copy already! :-)
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
I have the original edition of Colonel Cobb's 2006 atlas that shows in detail the routes of all British rail lines built before 1994 - the one that's due to be updated soon
I have it on my Christmas list, but the fox family are sometimes reluctant to indulge my pecadillo!
Toby Perkins @tobyperkinsmp 2h2 hours ago 65 defeated Labour PPC's asked who they want as leader- choose @LizforLeader -clear she's Labour's best prospect.
Hmm Losers for Liz
LOL. And in any case, 65 out of the 400-odd defeated Labour candidates is hardly that impressive a tally.
I actually quite admire Liz's team's chutzpah at still claiming she is the candidate who the public would like best, when that IPSOS-MORI public poll the other day placed her last (behind even Corbyn).
Did you get my PM
Replied now! I often don't think to check the Vanillaforums inbox, lol
I've probably mentioned this before, but I got a few Schott's Almanacs a few Christmases ago, which were good reading.
It's a shame there's such limited information available from the dim and distant past. Still, that old Quran showing up in Birmingham reminds us there's hope of Polybius' and Livy's lost writing showing up somewhere or other.
I've always considered that 'all things are possible' differentiates the old from the young. To the young, it's a promise. To the old, it's a threat.
As an old git, I'd like the flibbertigibbets and whippersnappers to get on, but also to remember that fridges were once rare, central heating unknown, and owning a house or car, an unobtainable luxury.
I had those four Yorkshiremen in the back of my cab once.
An early highlight of this fully revised millennium edition of Brewer's is Terry Pratchett's short, sweetly ironic preface. It's entirely appropriate, given Brewer's has been the bread-and-butter of curious, self-educated working men and women for 130 years, and that this decade's great demotic writer should be invited to watch the dust settle on yet another deposit of curious knowledge. ("It's an education in itself, seeing [the Fab Four] take their place with old Roman senators and mythological fauna ... ").
It is splendid. Many gambling, military, nautical terms and also a mindboggling variety of subspecialist underworld terms.
I have a copy already! :-)
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
I often buy atlases on holiday, for example a school atlas of the Caribbean from Antigua, and one from Malawi too. These are quite an insight into how each nation views the world.
Interesting factoid about bringing contraband items from abroad into India:
Top of their list isn't drugs, or p0rn or exotic animals.... but maps that show Kashmir and other disputed territories as not being entirely under Indian sovereignty.
Latest CLP nominations has Corbyn maintaining a stubborn lead on 107 to Burnham's 101,Yvette Cooper on two fat ladies 88 and Kendall on 14.The shitstorm unleashed by Tony Balir et al does not seem to have dented JC's support.Blair may well end up being his best recruitment officer.
Michael Gove is just an idealogue, tbh. For all this 'he cares about young people' there are more young people than not who disagree with his reforms.
I didn't ask whether you, or anyone else for that matter, disagreed with his reforms. I challenged you not on whether Gove had the right policies, but on whether he cared about young people.
What is it about you on the left that makes so many of you utterly incapable of understanding that people who advocate different solutions than those you advocate might care just as much, and be just as passionate about wanting to improve things, as you? It really is a most extraordinary blindness of the left.
I don't doubt what you say Richard. Right wing ideologues believe their own propaganda. But tell me this, why are right wing politics almost alway (and I mean always) aimed at making rich people richer at the expense of poor people?
Evidence????
Are you taking the piss Felix?
Every piece of progressive legislation has to be enacted by the left by spilling blood sweat and tears, and then, and only then gets reluctantly picked up by the right for political ends because they have to. From the health service, to the welfare state, minimum wage, climate change, free museums, equalities, disabilities, tax credits, housing, environment legislation, animal welfare and on and on and ariston.
I really can't think of one single thing post second world war the right has done on their own initiative to exclusively help the poor, the environment, or any other marginal group. They have done everything with their arm twisted around their backs.
FWIW, my grandfather, who was most definitely not a leftie, was very involved in the creation of the education and welfare systems during and after the war.
And neither was Humanity Dick, who did more for animal welfare than anyone else, a leftie. Not to mention Wilberforce and Shaftsbury's efforts on behalf of marginal groups.
Intrigued that you seem to regard free museums on a par with the welfare state, equalities, etc. Have you every looked into it in detail? Or is just part of your catechism?
Interesting breaking down those Times Yougov figures today. Burnham does best in England and Wales followed by Kendall, but it is Corbyn's very high net +7% in Scotland which increases his score from third to tied first (though Corbyn also has a net positive in London)
I got the ITN Factbook for my 15th in 1990 - the Soviet States are all described as being still under Moscow's control, and Germany was still shown as two states.
Latest CLP nominations has Corbyn maintaining a stubborn lead on 107 to Burnham's 101,Yvette Cooper on two fat ladies 88 and Kendall on 14.The shitstorm unleashed by Tony Balir et al does not seem to have dented JC's support.Blair may well end up being his best recruitment officer.
Liz K has crashed on betfair over the weekend. From mid 20s to 41. Corbyn and Cooper tied.
I got the ITN Factbook for my 15th in 1990 - the Soviet States are all described as being still under Moscow's control, and Germany was still shown as two states.
When my mother was still at school she didn't like doing her homework, but knew that her father had a complete set of the Enyclopedia Brittanica in his study.
She was told once to write an essay on Hitler, but reckoned that she could just copy out the entry. Come Sunday night, with the essay due Monday morning. she went to his office. And found the relevant entry:
Hitler, Adolf. Recently elected Chancellor of Germany. /end of entry
I was talking of all elections (I just thought the most recent GE might be most relevant) - young people generally, in seemingly most generations don't tend to vote Tory. You can add up all young people at all general elections to argue vast numbers are voting Tory, but that's a bit disingenuous given that the generation of young voters changes at each election.
I don't assume non-voters are all hostile to the Tories - just that they aren't Tories.
The Conservatives don't need large amounts of young voters though, Labour do - and didn't get them.
Interesting breaking down those Times Yougov figures today. Burnham does best in England and Wales followed by Kendall, but it is Corbyn's very high net +7% in Scotland which increases his score from third to tied first (though Corbyn also has a net positive in London)
I know we're in the dreaded sub-sample world, but the question which caught my eye was the Scottish sub-sample on:
" Thinking about how the Labour party have performed since the election, has it made you think more positively about them, more negatively about them, or made no difference?
More positively : 1% More negatively : 50% No difference - I had a positive view of Labour and still do : 11% No difference - I had a negative view of Labour and still do : 26%
TOTAL POSITIVE : 12% TOTAL NEGATIVE : 76% "
This is a real achievement for Labour, I think it reflects as well as a messy national leadership battle the SLAB leadership sideshow trundles along in SLAB's usual shambolic manner. For what its worth Kezia, the SLAB party machine candidate, seems fine with "Branch Office" status - she is now 1/50 with Shadsy, with Ken Mc on 12/1.
The Labour mess over the welfare bill is no doubt another factor - Murray stating that he opposed the bill by abstaining sums up Labour's predicament in a nutshell.
Michael Gove is just an idealogue, tbh. For all this 'he cares about young people' there are more young people than not who disagree with his reforms.
I didn't ask whether you, or anyone else for that matter, disagreed with his reforms. I challenged you not on whether Gove had the right policies, but on whether he cared about young people.
What is it about you on the left that makes so many of you utterly incapable of understanding that people who advocate different solutions than those you advocate might care just as much, and be just as passionate about wanting to improve things, as you? It really is a most extraordinary blindness of the left.
I don't doubt what you say Richard. Right wing ideologues believe their own propaganda. But tell me this, why are right wing politics almost alway (and I mean always) aimed at making rich people richer at the expense of poor people?
Evidence????
Are you taking the piss Felix?
Every piece of progressive legislation has to be enacted by the left by spilling blood sweat and tears, and then, and only then gets reluctantly picked up by the right for political ends because they have to. From the health service, to the welfare state, minimum wage, climate change, free museums, equalities, disabilities, tax credits, housing, environment legislation, animal welfare and on and on and ariston.
I really can't think of one single thing post second world war the right has done on their own initiative to exclusively help the poor, the environment, or any other marginal group. They have done everything with their arm twisted around their backs.
FWIW, my grandfather, who was most definitely not a leftie, was very involved in the creation of the education and welfare systems during and after the war.
And neither was Humanity Dick, who did more for animal welfare than anyone else, a leftie. Not to mention Wilberforce and Shaftsbury's efforts on behalf of marginal groups.
Intrigued that you seem to regard free museums on a par with the welfare state, equalities, etc. Have you every looked into it in detail? Or is just part of your catechism?
Ending the closed shop, strike ballots, council house sales, and abolishing rent controls are all examples of progressive legislation that was introduced by right wing governments. The biggest surges in house-building took place under the Conservatives.
I was talking of all elections (I just thought the most recent GE might be most relevant) - young people generally, in seemingly most generations don't tend to vote Tory. You can add up all young people at all general elections to argue vast numbers are voting Tory, but that's a bit disingenuous given that the generation of young voters changes at each election.
I don't assume non-voters are all hostile to the Tories - just that they aren't Tories.
The Conservatives don't need large amounts of young voters though, Labour do - and didn't get them.
I wasn't claiming the Tories do need the votes of the young, nor that Labour got most young people's' votes. The discussion started on the basis as to whether the Tories care about young people.
They're showing a repeat of Dan Snow's "Locomotion - a History of the Railways" on BBC2 right now
Not the best series, possibly because the presenter was not really into the topic.
I don't know if you've heard, but ITV are doing a drama about the building of a railway viaduct in the 1870s. A bit late period for my liking: it's the early stuff that really floats my boat. The industry was too mature in the 1870s.
Interesting breaking down those Times Yougov figures today. Burnham does best in England and Wales followed by Kendall, but it is Corbyn's very high net +7% in Scotland which increases his score from third to tied first (though Corbyn also has a net positive in London)
I know we're in the dreaded sub-sample world, but the question which caught my eye was the Scottish sub-sample on:
" Thinking about how the Labour party have performed since the election, has it made you think more positively about them, more negatively about them, or made no difference?
More positively : 1% More negatively : 50% No difference - I had a positive view of Labour and still do : 11% No difference - I had a negative view of Labour and still do : 26%
TOTAL POSITIVE : 12% TOTAL NEGATIVE : 76% "
This is a real achievement for Labour, I think it reflects as well as a messy national leadership battle the SLAB leadership sideshow trundles along in SLAB's usual shambolic manner. For what its worth Kezia, the SLAB party machine candidate, seems fine with "Branch Office" status - she is now 1/50 with Shadsy, with Ken Mc on 12/1.
The Labour mess over the welfare bill is no doubt another factor - Murray stating that he opposed the bill by abstaining sums up Labour's predicament in a nutshell.
The leadership election has been a shambles, but clearly Corbyn for UK leader and Ken Mc for Scottish leader would be SLab's best bet
I've watched Jeremy Corbyn's interview on the Andrew Marr programme. Corbyn comes over very well in my view, erudite, not without a sense of humour and an engaging manner. He's certainly no socialist firebrand on that evidence.
As is often the case on both Marr and Neil, an interesting line of questionning gets sidelined into an area of triviality. Corbyn's views on Marx are not that relevant - I would however be interested to know if either Cameron or Osborne have ever perused Das Kapital.
The problem for me is Corbyn's perception of the relationship between the State and the individual isn't where most people are now - it sounded like a romanticised view of Butskellism which was decisively rejected in 1979 as having failed. The State is now at most a regulator and enforcer and not the overarching provider it once was.
To be fair, Corbyn does tap into a reservoir of disquiet on privatisation especially rail privatisation and the perception someone is making a huge amount of money from commuters and passengers who have not seen measurable improvements to services in terms of increasing capacity. I also don't think he was advocating a return to British Rail and curled-up sandwiches but the sudden withdrawal of catering facilities on Southern has shown that for operating companies the welfare and comfort of passengers doesn't always seem to be of the highest priority.
A regulatory body able and willing to take a more assertive approach wouldn't be without support - the perception that the Conservatives are more on the side of the train operators than the passengers gives Labour an angle.
I did think Corbyn got it wrong as far as energy and telecoms were concerned - it's much easier to switch providers than it was and there's simply no way back in the telecommunications sector.
They're showing a repeat of Dan Snow's "Locomotion - a History of the Railways" on BBC2 right now
Not the best series, possibly because the presenter was not really into the topic.
I don't know if you've heard, but ITV are doing a drama about the building of a railway viaduct in the 1870s. A bit late period for my liking: it's the early stuff that really floats my boat. The industry was too mature in the 1870s.
Don't worry - the viaduct is no doubt just symbolic and there for dramatic effect and counterpoint. The most famous viaduct on ITV was the one in Viaduct St round the corner from Coronation St. I stopped watching it after the derailment and the train fell off it and redistributed the cast list.
I am busy today and so cannot contribute to your discussions overmuch (I know: restrain your grief at my lack of presence. Cry not, my children: I will be with you again some day...) I'd just thought I'd pop in for some brief told-you-so
You may recall during the latest Greece crisis that I said the Greeks would print Euros unauthorised? There is a press in Athens so it's not difficult. Turns out that they were planning to do exactly that[1][2][3] Holy s**t...
I need to point out that the Reuters article scrambles the facts slightly: the analysis concerns a return to drachma but the article events reported involving printing new notes, spending existing reserves, and running a parallel repayment system all denominated in Euros. The Forbes article correctly points out the foolishness of this (no matter what it says on the note, if the ECB says it isn't a Euro, it isn't a Euro)
I now return you to your discussion concerning a major Western European centre-left party electing a hard-left IRA sympathizer for s***s and giggles. A strange world, my masters, a strange world...
I've watched Jeremy Corbyn's interview on the Andrew Marr programme. Corbyn comes over very well in my view, erudite, not without a sense of humour and an engaging manner. He's certainly no socialist firebrand on that evidence.
As is often the case on both Marr and Neil, an interesting line of questionning gets sidelined into an area of triviality. Corbyn's views on Marx are not that relevant - I would however be interested to know if either Cameron or Osborne have ever perused Das Kapital.
The problem for me is Corbyn's perception of the relationship between the State and the individual isn't where most people are now - it sounded like a romanticised view of Butskellism which was decisively rejected in 1979 as having failed. The State is now at most a regulator and enforcer and not the overarching provider it once was.
To be fair, Corbyn does tap into a reservoir of disquiet on privatisation especially rail privatisation and the perception someone is making a huge amount of money from commuters and passengers who have not seen measurable improvements to services in terms of increasing capacity. I also don't think he was advocating a return to British Rail and curled-up sandwiches but the sudden withdrawal of catering facilities on Southern has shown that for operating companies the welfare and comfort of passengers doesn't always seem to be of the highest priority.
A regulatory body able and willing to take a more assertive approach wouldn't be without support - the perception that the Conservatives are more on the side of the train operators than the passengers gives Labour an angle.
I did think Corbyn got it wrong as far as energy and telecoms were concerned - it's much easier to switch providers than it was and there's simply no way back in the telecommunications sector.
"someone is making a huge amount of money from commuters and passengers who have not seen measurable improvements to services in terms of increasing capacity."
Train Operating Company profits are in the region of 2-4%. Hardly extortionate, and it would be easy for inefficiencies of a nationalise network to be greater than that.
The network needs more capacity because it is increasingly popular: passenger numbers are (from memory) higher than ever before (including the golden age of rail travel), and have doubled since privatisation.
Correlation does not equal causation, but BR managed a shrinking network for forty years. The privatised railways have looked after an expanding network for twenty. Renationalisation for the wrong reasons could undo much of that progress.
And is it too much to hope he mentioned railfreight? A big, glaring hole the pro-renationalisation peeps almost totally ignore.
I got the ITN Factbook for my 15th in 1990 - the Soviet States are all described as being still under Moscow's control, and Germany was still shown as two states.
When my mother was still at school she didn't like doing her homework, but knew that her father had a complete set of the Enyclopedia Brittanica in his study.
She was told once to write an essay on Hitler, but reckoned that she could just copy out the entry. Come Sunday night, with the essay due Monday morning. she went to his office. And found the relevant entry:
Hitler, Adolf. Recently elected Chancellor of Germany. /end of entry
Very funny story. But of course Hitler was never elected Chancellor - he was appointed by von Hindenberg, having lost the Presidential election to him.
Comments
It's mildly depressing when I look up perfectly good terms (like 'huntress') in the dictionary see them marked 'archaic'. Modernist tosh!
If jousting was good enough for Edward III, it's good enough for me (as a spectator). When chariot racing is unavailable, of course.
Miss Plato, I agree. Bounders and cads are exclusively male, just as wanton wenches are only ever women.
PS: same goes for guys
I was talking of all elections (I just thought the most recent GE might be most relevant) - young people generally, in seemingly most generations don't tend to vote Tory. You can add up all young people at all general elections to argue vast numbers are voting Tory, but that's a bit disingenuous given that the generation of young voters changes at each election.
I don't assume non-voters are all hostile to the Tories - just that they aren't Tories.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0082RKL16/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1437929884&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SY200_QL40&keywords=dictionary+of+the+vulgar+tongue&dpPl=1&dpID=51trVzncSeL&ref=plSrch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DBqwerqCOs
I am back in fashion 35 years after first wearing my red ones!!
If I didn't think you were pulling my leg, I'd be worried!
http://media.wix.com/ugd/3da52d_1230052e18e44329b15baf500a18c29f.pdf
I worry far more about my children than myself; more so as I get older. I want them to have the opportunities that I had, and then some. Sadly, that's not likely. I doubt very much whether I'm alone.
I don't think I'm likely to meet another person with such a similar interest, alas
How useful are nomination counts in predicting the outcome - a hint but not a decisive one.
Indeed so, another data point to go with the YouGov poll which by itself is nothing conclusive.
Lots of great old-fashioned terms. One I happened upon somewhere or other was 'flittermice' (which means bats).
German compound nouns are great.
I have a copy already! :-)
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/jvcr8gkvrb/SundayTimesResults_150724_W.pdf
I often read Dictionaries and Encyclopedias when young, but most of all the Atlas. I have a splendid collection of these, from a marvellous 1908 one with lots of pink bits and brief mentions of non British foreign parts, to the present day. Sunil put me onto a brilliant railway atlas of Europe a couple of years back...
I wouldn't worry too much about your children. The future for them with advancement in technology, and healthcare will be a marvellous thing, and for their children even better.
I have the original edition of Colonel Cobb's 2006 atlas that shows in detail the routes of all British rail lines built before 1994 - the one that's due to be updated soon
I often buy atlases on holiday, for example a school atlas of the Caribbean from Antigua, and one from Malawi too. These are quite an insight into how each nation views the world.
I have it on my Christmas list, but the fox family are sometimes reluctant to indulge my pecadillo!
I've probably mentioned this before, but I got a few Schott's Almanacs a few Christmases ago, which were good reading.
It's a shame there's such limited information available from the dim and distant past. Still, that old Quran showing up in Birmingham reminds us there's hope of Polybius' and Livy's lost writing showing up somewhere or other.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/26/politics/cnn-poll-presidential-race/
Now we have Wikipedia, which is an objectively amazing human achievement, like our generation's Encyclopédie but more fun.
Yes, flibbertigibbet is female usually.
I've always considered that 'all things are possible' differentiates the old from the young. To the young, it's a promise. To the old, it's a threat.
As an old git, I'd like the flibbertigibbets and whippersnappers to get on, but also to remember that fridges were once rare, central heating unknown, and owning a house or car, an unobtainable luxury.
I had those four Yorkshiremen in the back of my cab once.
Interesting factoid about bringing contraband items from abroad into India:
Top of their list isn't drugs, or p0rn or exotic animals.... but maps that show Kashmir and other disputed territories as not being entirely under Indian sovereignty.
See the second page of this PDF:
http://www.immihelp.com/travel-to-india/indian-customs-declaration-form.pdf
And neither was Humanity Dick, who did more for animal welfare than anyone else, a leftie. Not to mention Wilberforce and Shaftsbury's efforts on behalf of marginal groups.
Intrigued that you seem to regard free museums on a par with the welfare state, equalities, etc. Have you every looked into it in detail? Or is just part of your catechism?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33669069
Map at the bottom shows just how little of Syria is controlled by his regime.
She was told once to write an essay on Hitler, but reckoned that she could just copy out the entry. Come Sunday night, with the essay due Monday morning. she went to his office. And found the relevant entry:
Hitler, Adolf. Recently elected Chancellor of Germany. /end of entry
I believe it was at noon but as Toby Perkins hasnt tweeted about it I assume Liz didnt win
" Thinking about how the Labour party have performed since the election, has it made you think more positively about them, more negatively about them, or made no difference?
More positively : 1%
More negatively : 50%
No difference - I had a positive view of Labour and still do : 11%
No difference - I had a negative view of Labour and still do : 26%
TOTAL POSITIVE : 12%
TOTAL NEGATIVE : 76% "
This is a real achievement for Labour, I think it reflects as well as a messy national leadership battle the SLAB leadership sideshow trundles along in SLAB's usual shambolic manner. For what its worth Kezia, the SLAB party machine candidate, seems fine with "Branch Office" status - she is now 1/50 with Shadsy, with Ken Mc on 12/1.
The Labour mess over the welfare bill is no doubt another factor - Murray stating that he opposed the bill by abstaining sums up Labour's predicament in a nutshell.
I don't know if you've heard, but ITV are doing a drama about the building of a railway viaduct in the 1870s. A bit late period for my liking: it's the early stuff that really floats my boat. The industry was too mature in the 1870s.
http://www.itv.com/presscentre/press-releases/itv-commissions-new-eight-part-drama-series-jericho
I've watched Jeremy Corbyn's interview on the Andrew Marr programme. Corbyn comes over very well in my view, erudite, not without a sense of humour and an engaging manner. He's certainly no socialist firebrand on that evidence.
As is often the case on both Marr and Neil, an interesting line of questionning gets sidelined into an area of triviality. Corbyn's views on Marx are not that relevant - I would however be interested to know if either Cameron or Osborne have ever perused Das Kapital.
The problem for me is Corbyn's perception of the relationship between the State and the individual isn't where most people are now - it sounded like a romanticised view of Butskellism which was decisively rejected in 1979 as having failed. The State is now at most a regulator and enforcer and not the overarching provider it once was.
To be fair, Corbyn does tap into a reservoir of disquiet on privatisation especially rail privatisation and the perception someone is making a huge amount of money from commuters and passengers who have not seen measurable improvements to services in terms of increasing capacity. I also don't think he was advocating a return to British Rail and curled-up sandwiches but the sudden withdrawal of catering facilities on Southern has shown that for operating companies the welfare and comfort of passengers doesn't always seem to be of the highest priority.
A regulatory body able and willing to take a more assertive approach wouldn't be without support - the perception that the Conservatives are more on the side of the train operators than the passengers gives Labour an angle.
I did think Corbyn got it wrong as far as energy and telecoms were concerned - it's much easier to switch providers than it was and there's simply no way back in the telecommunications sector.
New Thread
The most famous viaduct on ITV was the one in Viaduct St round the corner from Coronation St. I stopped watching it after the derailment and the train fell off it and redistributed the cast list.
You may recall during the latest Greece crisis that I said the Greeks would print Euros unauthorised? There is a press in Athens so it's not difficult. Turns out that they were planning to do exactly that[1][2][3] Holy s**t...
I need to point out that the Reuters article scrambles the facts slightly: the analysis concerns a return to drachma but the article events reported involving printing new notes, spending existing reserves, and running a parallel repayment system all denominated in Euros. The Forbes article correctly points out the foolishness of this (no matter what it says on the note, if the ECB says it isn't a Euro, it isn't a Euro)
I now return you to your discussion concerning a major Western European centre-left party electing a hard-left IRA sympathizer for s***s and giggles. A strange world, my masters, a strange world...
[1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/26/syrizas-hard-left-were-planning-a-financial-coup-detat-and-grexit/
[2] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/26/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKCN0Q00JN20150726
[3] http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2a0a1d94-3201-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3gu3vCq4V
Train Operating Company profits are in the region of 2-4%. Hardly extortionate, and it would be easy for inefficiencies of a nationalise network to be greater than that.
The network needs more capacity because it is increasingly popular: passenger numbers are (from memory) higher than ever before (including the golden age of rail travel), and have doubled since privatisation.
Correlation does not equal causation, but BR managed a shrinking network for forty years. The privatised railways have looked after an expanding network for twenty. Renationalisation for the wrong reasons could undo much of that progress.
And is it too much to hope he mentioned railfreight? A big, glaring hole the pro-renationalisation peeps almost totally ignore.