Like so many others on here, I've struggled with Tsipras and his strategy (if he had one). The NO vote was, I think, his hope that the EZ would offer a deal he could easily sell but instead the EZ have called his bluff and he has basically folded (to stretch the card-playing analogy).
I think the simplest explanation is that having promised what he needed to promise to get elected he's just been taking things a day at a time and hoping something lucky happens.
You are blind and deaf. You are the entrenched position. There will be little difference to being in or out. These are the facts of life. I can happily live with being in the EEA - especially if it is by mutual consent - but I am not so naive as to think it will make any difference, or that simply walking out irrespective of terms is clever. It may be the best for us but the EU will not go away. The absolute issue is the Eurozone and how we relate to the inevitable ever closer union of it within the EU. The Eurozone will become a defacto single continental-wide country. A common currency with common interest rates will lead to common taxation policies will lead to common economic policies and common political decisions. We will not be part of that and we have to decide how to relate to it.
Why must people on this forum be so rude? It is possible to disagree with people without calling them "blind and deaf".
Quite right. It is becoming more prevalent and it does not add to the debate or the pleasures of reading. Abuse should be restricted to those with genuine wit like SeanT. Most of us are not funny enough to be any good at it.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
Why must people on this forum be so rude? It is possible to disagree with people without calling them "blind and deaf".
Of course many in politics have long believed you have to disagree with everything your opponents say, but the SNP ratcheted it up to a whole new level during the independence referendum. Scottish Labour "stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the Tories" in the Better Together campaign and must never be forgiven for it. This takes as given that to agree with a political opponent is something for which you should seek forgiveness, that to agree with someone on something implies you must agree with them on everything. It's an extraordinarily witless stance to adopt.
@mickmcavoy: Interesting piece on the use of the word "hate" in modern politics. Well worth a read (even if you hate his blogs) https://t.co/uuZ2e4EApV
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
It was a truly bizarre policy and I am glad Gove has had the common sense as well as the decency to recognise that fairly quickly.
You are blind and deaf. You are the entrenched position. There will be little difference to being in or out. These are the facts of life. I can happily live with being in the EEA - especially if it is by mutual consent - but I am not so naive as to think it will make any difference, or that simply walking out irrespective of terms is clever. It may be the best for us but the EU will not go away. The absolute issue is the Eurozone and how we relate to the inevitable ever closer union of it within the EU. The Eurozone will become a defacto single continental-wide country. A common currency with common interest rates will lead to common taxation policies will lead to common economic policies and common political decisions. We will not be part of that and we have to decide how to relate to it.
Were the UK to leave the European Union, it is not inevitable that we would decide to remain members of the European Economic Area. Switzerland, for example, is not a member of the EEA.
The claim, however, that there would be no difference between membership of the EU and the EEA is false and verging towards the dishonest. On the constitutional side, '[r]elevant differences between the EEA Agreement and the [EU Treaties] include the absence in the EEA Agreement of important principles of [EU] law such as transfer of legislative powers, direct effect and primacy of [EU] legislation' (Sveinbjornsdottir v Iceland [1999] 1 CMLR 884, 897).
As for the substantive side, the following do not exist: the EEA's common foreign and security policy, the EEA's external action service, common EEA citizenship, the EEA's charter of fundamental rights, the EEA's "area of freedom, justice and security", the EEA's "economic and monetary union". The EEA agreement also limits the sovereignty of signatories to a lesser extent than EU membership in areas where the EU has shared competence with the member states under article 3(2) TFEU.
So we can agree that membership of the EEA and membership of the EU is not a matter of small differences?
Tsipras is madder than Mad Jack McMad. He's madder than a man who turns down a sword when about to fight a crocodile, and tries whapping it in the face with his todger instead.
The real point of the article is ''In 2013 a new ginger group called Renewal proposed that the Tories should reinvent themselves as a party for workers. During the election campaign, David Cameron took up the idea, claiming he was now leading “the party of working people”. As George Osborne’s recent manoeuvres prove, this is exactly how the Conservatives want to reshape politics, pulling the word “worker” away from its residual associations with solidarity, strikes, and all that stuff, and recasting it as the badge you wear when you earn a living, and you resent subsidising anyone who doesn’t.''
BTW If being a 'successful UK politician' is represented by Nigel Farage the it is indeed a funny old world. And Salmond and Sturgeon? Where lies Scottish independence inside the Eurozone now?
The manifesto, which voters were entitled to take at its word, promised a free vote on a government bill in government time. That does not need a vote.
A vote does not need a vote? Can you run that past us in a little more detail?
Why must people on this forum be so rude? It is possible to disagree with people without calling them "blind and deaf".
There's a non-partisan split here between people who like to argue ad hominem and people like Sean F who are invariably polite even to people they completely disagree with. The former are still a minority here, and IMO devalue their arguments - one spends more time reacting to the insults than considering the content.
That said, PB is very civilised compared with most internet forums!
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
Indeed, this thread is getting very tetchy - lets hope Malcom returns soon and starts calling everyone turnips to bring the force back into balance.
Re Greece, without a decent stimulus package they will never get out of the hole they find themselves, there appears to be 25 Billion Euro kicking around for "investment" perhaps some of this may actually find its way into reviving the economy. Worth remembering Greece's GDP was growing at 4% before the 2008 crisis.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's interesting watching what the government does without the LibDems and seeing where the LibDems were actually doing something useful, and where they were a waste of space. Whoever was supposed to be keeping an eye on Justice clearly sucked, but the last budget shows how effective the much-maligned Danny Alexander must have been in furthering the pro-liberal / progressive / anti-stupid agenda.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's interesting watching what the government does without the LibDems and seeing where the LibDems were actually doing something useful, and where they were a waste of space. Whoever was supposed to be keeping an eye on Justice clearly sucked, but the last budget shows how effective the much-maligned Danny Alexander must have been in furthering the pro-liberal / anti-stupid agenda.
What was anti-liberal about the last budget ? Gladstone would have been proud.
For those that cannot see behind the paywall, the title is: "Greece’s brutal creditors have demolished the eurozone project" and the opening sentence is: "A few things that many of us took for granted, and that some of us believed in, ended in a single weekend."
"In suburban cul-de-sacs as much as post-industrial backwaters, you can very occasionally get beyond people’s cynicism about politicians – “they don’t give a monkey’s about what happens down here,” one Labour-Ukip switcher told me in Clacton – and see flashes of what they think the mainstream parties lack. Outside the Westminster fishbowl, they seem cold and mechanistic, and devoid of any real sense of how people live. Even such visceral issues as immigration and “welfare” are too often reduced to dry statistics, particularly on the increasingly rare occasions when politicians are trying to make a progressive(ish) case."
"Unfortunately, even if Labour’s current contenders have their talents, its domination by professionalised politicians always threatens to render even its more promising messages tinny and forced. I am not sure Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham or Liz Kendall are the kind of people who can represent much beyond the rise of a remote political class. The most successful UK politicians of recent years – Tony Blair, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Nigel Farage – have proved that speaking to and for millions of voters requires a sense of vision and an approach rooted in culture as much as dry politics. Unfortunately, whether or not Labour can provide those things does not seem to be a question this generation is going to be able to answer."
The cupboard seems a little bare...
George Galloway and Boris prob could be added to that list
Peter Hitchens yesterday supported Corbyn on the basis at least he meant what he said
Maybe labour should take a few years off to get back to their core values rather than craving power at any cost
What worries me is the threat of the sense of national humiliation. This isn't something the British know anything about but most other European nations have experienced it. The sense of futility and helplessness is replaced by a sense of anger and resentment. To laugh about it, as one person did on here this morning, is to make a crass misunderstanding of how this could play out.
The siren calls of extremism in Greece will be that much harder to counter - the Greeks, like most other nations, are a proud people and the process by which they have been effectively economically and politically annexed by the EZ isn't something for cheap political jibes.
I share these concerns. The German approach was logical and justifiable but, probably because of the madness and rudeness of Varoufakis, lacking in compassion or tact. On the many occasions my better half finds it necessary to demonstrate the error of my ways she never feels the need to rub my face in my stupidity. That is why we will be celebrating our 30th anniversary this year.
The prospects of the Euro getting to its 30th anniversary in anything like its current form are diminished this morning.
As far as Osborne's Budget last week is concerned, I'm only mildly affected. Mrs Stodge, who is a self-employed contractor, is spitting feathers.
I did unwisely offer that claiming your lunch as expenses was perhaps a loophole that needed to be filled but as I ducked for cover behind the sofa, did agree that business-related travel expenses were different and should be treated differently.
The increasingly-Tory inclined Evening Standard claimed it was a "game changer". I struggle to see that - the £9 National Living Wage is welcome but I'm already seeing in my work around local authorities that more and more are replacing full-time older staff with younger apprentices who cost much less. The problem is there will be a huge turnover as these apprentices move on to bigger and better jobs elsewhere.
I look at many of the organisations that employ people and wonder how they will pay the £9 wage - will there be a pool of older unemployed created or will businesses pass on these costs in the form of higher prices ? It's a politically attractive policy but to me looks superficial and I have plenty of doubts as to its viability.
On the liberalisation of Sunday trading, as Mrs Stodge and I were enjoying our evening perambulation down East Ham High Street, I noted the only shops open were the Romanian food shops and the betting shops - the latter performing the function of social club for many local men (as the pubs once did). The law needs tidying up - whether it needs complete liberalisation I'm to be convinced.
A vote does not need a vote? Can you run that past us in a little more detail?
Haha, the point I was trying (badly) to make was that the manifesto promise could be fulfilled by the mere fact of having the vote, rather than necessarily by winning it!
I share these concerns. The German approach was logical and justifiable but, probably because of the madness and rudeness of Varoufakis, lacking in compassion or tact. On the many occasions my better half finds it necessary to demonstrate the error of my ways she never feels the need to rub my face in my stupidity. That is why we will be celebrating our 30th anniversary this year.
The prospects of the Euro getting to its 30th anniversary in anything like its current form are diminished this morning.
History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this.
Congratulations in advance to you and Mrs DL on the upcoming, I only met Mrs Stodge late in life but it was worth the wait..
What worries me is the threat of the sense of national humiliation. This isn't something the British know anything about but most other European nations have experienced it. The sense of futility and helplessness is replaced by a sense of anger and resentment. To laugh about it, as one person did on here this morning, is to make a crass misunderstanding of how this could play out.
The siren calls of extremism in Greece will be that much harder to counter - the Greeks, like most other nations, are a proud people and the process by which they have been effectively economically and politically annexed by the EZ isn't something for cheap political jibes.
A good post. The national humiliation - for that is how it will be perceived - worries me too. I think there will be a price to be paid for it eventually. The Greeks are now paying the price for the idiotic way Tsipras has played this and for the corrupt and incompetent governance of its previous non-Leftist governments but it would be very foolish to assume that the arrogant way other countries have spoken about and dealt with the Greeks won't come back and bite them at some point.
The truth is not even the Germans and French complied with the rules they originally set themselves. No-one has complied with the rules; no-one has been honest about the implications of the euro; everyone has - seemingly - elevated the interests of a currency and banks above the interests of the people whom the governments are meant to serve.
Meanwhile in Greece the banks are closed for a third successive week, people are sorting through rubbish bins to find something to eat and a European country cannot fund medecines or basic medical equipment for its hospitals. That Nobel Peace Prize was well chosen.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's interesting watching what the government does without the LibDems and seeing where the LibDems were actually doing something useful, and where they were a waste of space. Whoever was supposed to be keeping an eye on Justice clearly sucked, but the last budget shows how effective the much-maligned Danny Alexander must have been in furthering the pro-liberal / anti-stupid agenda.
What was anti-liberal about the last budget ? Gladstone would have been proud.
Completely correct and I refer to the Guardian article linked to by antifrank and further quoted by myself as evidence. The fact that we have had to wait for the demise of the LDs for this budget shows what a waste of space they were. Which is very sad as originally I was willing to give them a chance.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's interesting watching what the government does without the LibDems and seeing where the LibDems were actually doing something useful, and where they were a waste of space. Whoever was supposed to be keeping an eye on Justice clearly sucked, but the last budget shows how effective the much-maligned Danny Alexander must have been in furthering the pro-liberal / progressive / anti-stupid agenda.
I was a fan of Danny Alexander's but really? The last budget increased the NMW, increased personal allowances, slowed down the pace of cuts from the last Coalition budget, increased taxes on the better off through variety of means such as charging capital gains to income and on shares, limited the abuse of Non Doms and limited most of the consequences for CTC to future children. It was a very Lib Dem budget and none the worse for that in my opinion.
"Unfortunately, even if Labour’s current contenders have their talents, its domination by professionalised politicians always threatens to render even its more promising messages tinny and forced.
And another good one on the SNP MPs:
The people they represent are their friends and neighbours, whereas nobody is even trying to pretend that Ed Miliband is hanging out with his mates in Doncaster in his leisure time. And the bloodless career politicians who have bounced from PPE at Oxford to a thinktank to the front bench or shadow front bench are nowhere to be seen in the SNP. Not least because no one in their right mind thought there was any career in Westminster politics for an SNP MP.
The difference between their energy, optimism and conviction and what I saw at the Labour party conference in Manchester last autumn is striking.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
Absolutely! If previously idle people left prison as qualified tradesmen and could earn themselves a good wage from the day the left, reoffending rates should drop substantially. Something else that would help massively is assisted relocation, where a prisoner on release is set up with a temporary accommodation and support in a town away from where they offended and know only offenders, to be given a (single) chance to sort their life out.
The manifesto, which voters were entitled to take at its word, promised a free vote on a government bill in government time. That does not need a vote.
A vote does not need a vote? Can you run that past us in a little more detail?
Why must people on this forum be so rude? It is possible to disagree with people without calling them "blind and deaf".
There's a non-partisan split here between people who like to argue ad hominem and people like Sean F who are invariably polite even to people they completely disagree with. The former are still a minority here, and IMO devalue their arguments - one spends more time reacting to the insults than considering the content.
That said, PB is very civilised compared with most internet forums!
Being blunt is not being rude. Hopefully I have made my point - my position of the EU for instance is not entrenched. Nor am I a Europhile. I am awaiting the negotiations. Meantime you can be as polite as you like, you are still wrong. And as someone else has reminded us - it was Brown who blatantly broke his promise about a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
Sturgeon's massive leader ratings over Miliband were very relevant to Scotland.
I've just gone and rechecked the polls and they infact understated the SNP's final vote and overstate the Labour vote
"In suburban cul-de-sacs as much as post-industrial backwaters, you can very occasionally get beyond people’s cynicism about politicians – “they don’t give a monkey’s about what happens down here,” one Labour-Ukip switcher told me in Clacton – and see flashes of what they think the mainstream parties lack. Outside the Westminster fishbowl, they seem cold and mechanistic, and devoid of any real sense of how people live. Even such visceral issues as immigration and “welfare” are too often reduced to dry statistics, particularly on the increasingly rare occasions when politicians are trying to make a progressive(ish) case."
"Unfortunately, even if Labour’s current contenders have their talents, its domination by professionalised politicians always threatens to render even its more promising messages tinny and forced. I am not sure Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham or Liz Kendall are the kind of people who can represent much beyond the rise of a remote political class. The most successful UK politicians of recent years – Tony Blair, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Nigel Farage – have proved that speaking to and for millions of voters requires a sense of vision and an approach rooted in culture as much as dry politics. Unfortunately, whether or not Labour can provide those things does not seem to be a question this generation is going to be able to answer."
The cupboard seems a little bare...
George Galloway and Boris prob could be added to that list
Peter Hitchens yesterday supported Corbyn on the basis at least he meant what he said
Maybe labour should take a few years off to get back to their core values rather than craving power at any cost
limited most of the consequences for CTC to future children
The spare room subsidy would have politically been easier to implement this way - I think we'll see future changes of this ilk forward dated to affect 'next' cohorts rather than changing existing circumstances.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
Absolutely! If previously idle people left prison as qualified tradesmen and could earn themselves a good wage from the day the left, reoffending rates should drop substantially. Something else that would help massively is assisted relocation, where a prisoner on release is set up with a temporary accommodation and support in a town away from where they offended and know only offenders, to be given a (single) chance to sort their life out.
Agreed. Good move by Gove. I read somewhere that a significant proportion of prisoners are functionally illiterate. Teaching them to read properly; teaching them a trade or skill are all worthwhile and in their and our interests.
But the debacles of yesteryear were different. They were committed by statesmen. People who knew what they wanted and miscalculated. It was hard to see last night what the rulers of Europe wanted.
What they’ve arguably got is a global reputational disaster: the crushing of a left-wing government elected on a landslide, the flouting of a 61 per cent referendum result. The EU – a project founded to avoid conflict and deliver social justice – found itself transformed into the conveyor of relentless financial logic and nothing else.
Ordinary people don’t know enough about the financial logic to understand why this was always likely to happen: bonds, haircuts and currency mechanisms are distant concepts. Democracy is not. Everybody on earth with a smartphone understands what happened to democracy last night.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
Absolutely! If previously idle people left prison as qualified tradesmen and could earn themselves a good wage from the day the left, reoffending rates should drop substantially. Something else that would help massively is assisted relocation, where a prisoner on release is set up with a temporary accommodation and support in a town away from where they offended and know only offenders, to be given a (single) chance to sort their life out.
Agreed. Good move by Gove. I read somewhere that a significant proportion of prisoners are functionally illiterate. Teaching them to read properly; teaching them a trade or skill are all worthwhile and in their and our interests.
The book ban did always seem a bit bonkers, which department has the misfortune of Chris Grayling now ?
limited most of the consequences for CTC to future children
The spare room subsidy would have politically been easier to implement this way - I think we'll see future changes of this ilk forward dated to affect 'next' cohorts rather than changing existing circumstances.
George learns on the job.
Yes, as I have commented before he rarely makes the same mistake twice. The exception for multiple births was another little tweak that was very much in tune with the vox populi (at least as far as shown by a R5 phone in).
All of this shows why Harriet is right and 3 of the 4 leadership candidates are wrong. If Liz Kendall does not come out all guns blazing today supporting Harriet she really does deserve to come nowhere in this contest.
If I had been involved in her campaign I would have had her on every media outlet available this morning (despite the Greek dominance) making that point as forcefully as she could.
limited most of the consequences for CTC to future children
The spare room subsidy would have politically been easier to implement this way - I think we'll see future changes of this ilk forward dated to affect 'next' cohorts rather than changing existing circumstances.
George learns on the job.
It's odd really.
The most significant social welfare reforms of the 1980s and 1990s almost all had the notion of transitional protection arrangements in place for existing claimants.
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
Sturgeon's massive leader ratings over Miliband were very relevant to Scotland.
I've just gone and rechecked the polls and they infact understated the SNP's final vote and overstate the Labour vote
But the idea that the polls didn't pick up the SNP surge is loony toons. As even on those projections the SNP was sweeping Scotland.
I went on record shortly after the Referendum - and continually thereafter - saying that the SNP would poll 50%. This was on the basis that the SNP had an easy message to sell - Scotland First - and that would appeal to not only the Yes voters, but also the No, but more devolution please voters.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
Absolutely! If previously idle people left prison as qualified tradesmen and could earn themselves a good wage from the day the left, reoffending rates should drop substantially. Something else that would help massively is assisted relocation, where a prisoner on release is set up with a temporary accommodation and support in a town away from where they offended and know only offenders, to be given a (single) chance to sort their life out.
Agreed. Good move by Gove. I read somewhere that a significant proportion of prisoners are functionally illiterate. Teaching them to read properly; teaching them a trade or skill are all worthwhile and in their and our interests.
Certainly, though [weak joke alert] I vaguely recall a line from some thriller or other about a character who'd been sent to borstal, where they'd taught him to read, write and look round for coppers before he hit anyone.
I share these concerns. The German approach was logical and justifiable but, probably because of the madness and rudeness of Varoufakis, lacking in compassion or tact. On the many occasions my better half finds it necessary to demonstrate the error of my ways she never feels the need to rub my face in my stupidity. That is why we will be celebrating our 30th anniversary this year.
The prospects of the Euro getting to its 30th anniversary in anything like its current form are diminished this morning.
History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this.
Congratulations in advance to you and Mrs DL on the upcoming, I only met Mrs Stodge late in life but it was worth the wait..
Yes, exactly. Humiliating the Egyptians and Ottomans (or throwing out Mossadeq) might have seemed the right thing to do at the time, but I don't think anyone would now argue that the rise of Arab nationalism, and then radical Islamism, turned out well for Western interests.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
Absolutely! If previously idle people left prison as qualified tradesmen and could earn themselves a good wage from the day the left, reoffending rates should drop substantially. Something else that would help massively is assisted relocation, where a prisoner on release is set up with a temporary accommodation and support in a town away from where they offended and know only offenders, to be given a (single) chance to sort their life out.
Agreed. Good move by Gove. I read somewhere that a significant proportion of prisoners are functionally illiterate. Teaching them to read properly; teaching them a trade or skill are all worthwhile and in their and our interests.
Yes, agreed. I see the time I spent on the Justice Select Committee as the most useful part of my involvement, and when we looked at prisons it was really clear that (a) the primary concern was managing the population, not training them for anything and (b) recidivism was much higher than in countries that tried harder (IIRC 70%+ reoffend in Britain within 2 years, vs about 20% in Norway). For example, although there are to be fair lots of training opportunities, they don't lead to a qualification, and no attempt is made to enable prisoners to finish courses if administrative convenience means they need to be switched to another prison.
Part of the reason for that was overcrowding - prisons were desperate to manage the numbers and that often involved moving prisoners around to maximise use of space. But it was clear that many prisons were only paying lip-service to training and skills.
I think it'd be useful to give prisoners the vote, purely to give some MPs a direct personal interest in sorting the issue out. At present, most MPs never visit a prison and take no interest in what they're like. This isn't about liberal or harsh treatment, so much as about effectiveness.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Utter garbage. The EU is in no way bound by a Greek referendum. That is Tsipras's bag - he is the one who has betrayed his voters. The Greek vote was an internal matter - why on earth should the peoples of Latvia, Finland, Spain, Holland or anywhere else be required to give more money to the Greeks because they voted for it. I am not a fan of the EU but what you write is quite nonsensical and does the anti-EU cause no favours.
Not sure who is talking the most garbage here.
The Greek Referendum is not saying that the German tax payers have to spend a single cent more. It is asking if the Greek voters accepted the required austerity measures, and that is all. When they said no, German was quite at liberty so say that it was unfortunate but they were not prepared to pay and more and Greece was out the Euro.
Both sides are as bad as each other. Greece wants to be in the Euro without the financial discipline it required. Germany (and France) want Balkan states with dubious financial records in the EU, but doesn't want to foot the bill. Both the Greek and German leaders want Greece to leave the Euro, neither of them want it to look like it was at their instigation. Shameful all around.
We did not join the Euro and neither did Denmark. So why did Greece? They made promises and commitments when they joined. they are the ones that broke them.
Greece's financies were consipicuously flawed when they applied for membership, people said so at the time, but the EU was so desparate to bring in new members they decided to turn a huge blind eye to obvious failings, and now don't want to pay for their foolishness.
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
Sturgeon's massive leader ratings over Miliband were very relevant to Scotland.
I've just gone and rechecked the polls and they infact understated the SNP's final vote and overstate the Labour vote
But the idea that the polls didn't pick up the SNP surge is loony toons. As even on those projections the SNP was sweeping Scotland.
I went on record shortly after the Referendum - and continually thereafter - saying that the SNP would poll 50%. This was on the basis that the SNP had an easy message to sell - Scotland First - and that would appeal to not only the Yes voters, but also the No, but more devolution please voters.
But hey, what do I know about Scottish politics?
A large number of poeple on PB read the runes/polls and made a tidy profit form Scotland. My only regret is I didn't bet more on the SLab 0-5 seats market.
The Greek Referendum is not saying that the German tax payers have to spend a single cent more. It is asking if the Greek voters accepted the required austerity measures, and that is all. When they said no, German was quite at liberty so say that it was unfortunate but they were not prepared to pay and more and Greece was out the Euro.
Both sides are as bad as each other. Greece wants to be in the Euro without the financial discipline it required. Germany (and France) want Balkan states with dubious financial records in the EU, but doesn't want to foot the bill. Both the Greek and German leaders want Greece to leave the Euro, neither of them want it to look like it was at their instigation. Shameful all around.
Exactly right. An agreement requires the support of both sides, and once the Greek government asked the Greek people is they support such an agreement, they need to respect those wishes, both by the precise terms of the question and by the spirit (in terms of accepting a worse deal).
The worst part of all of this is that Greece will likely need another bailout in 12 months, and Golden Dawn could be leading in the polls by then. You think Germany of all countries would know the dangers of forcing a harsh deflationary depression on a country.
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
Sturgeon's massive leader ratings over Miliband were very relevant to Scotland.
I've just gone and rechecked the polls and they infact understated the SNP's final vote and overstate the Labour vote
But the idea that the polls didn't pick up the SNP surge is loony toons. As even on those projections the SNP was sweeping Scotland.
I went on record shortly after the Referendum - and continually thereafter - saying that the SNP would poll 50%. This was on the basis that the SNP had an easy message to sell - Scotland First - and that would appeal to not only the Yes voters, but also the No, but more devolution please voters.
But hey, what do I know about Scottish politics?
A large number of poeple on PB read the runes/polls and made a tidy profit form Scotland. My only regret is I didn't bet more on the SLab 0-5 seats market.
At two general elections running I have made almost all of my money out of bets that seemed stark staring obvious to me. All the really subtle thought-through bets either didn't work out or made only small sums. I'm taking a big lesson from that.
Yes, exactly. Humiliating the Egyptians and Ottomans (or throwing out Mossadeq) might have seemed the right thing to do at the time, but I don't think anyone would now argue that the rise of Arab nationalism, and then radical Islamism, turned out well for Western interests.
I wasn't actually thinking of those instances (though they fit the argument). I was thinking about the contrasting treatment of Germany and Italy after the two World Wars. While I wouldn't put current events in that league, Versailles was a national humiliation for the Germans (and subordinate treaties such as Trianon were for others) and we all know what happened after 1918.
An angry, bitter and resentful Greece inside the EU is something that will take careful managing - I suppose some in the EZ were worried the Greeks would run out of the EU and perhaps NATO as well and head for the fond embrace of Putin.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
It was a truly bizarre policy and I am glad Gove has had the common sense as well as the decency to recognise that fairly quickly.
Chris Grayling is just a very poor minister, as he is again demonstrating with his EV4EL backtracking. There must be more talented people than him that Cameron could appoint.
I think I've solved the puzzle as to what on earth Tsipras was doing with his seemingly mad strategy. It all makes perfect sense if he's actually an über-Thatcherite sound-money man, who was convinced that the only way forward for Greece was very tight fiscal policy and engaging on very deep reforms to the labour market and pensions, dismantling of restrictive practices, extensive privatisations, getting rid of nepotism, and destroying the power of the unions. His approach was a brilliant way of making all this politically possible in Greece.
@Carlottavance Did a pig just fly past the window or did you link to a story with a positive spin on the SNP ?!
Despite what Malcom rants I do post positive comments about Scotland - and even the SNP - when they deserve it - and in this case their electoral triumph was based on more than just 'a consolation prize'
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
Absolutely! If previously idle people left prison as qualified tradesmen and could earn themselves a good wage from the day the left, reoffending rates should drop substantially. Something else that would help massively is assisted relocation, where a prisoner on release is set up with a temporary accommodation and support in a town away from where they offended and know only offenders, to be given a (single) chance to sort their life out.
Agreed. Good move by Gove. I read somewhere that a significant proportion of prisoners are functionally illiterate. Teaching them to read properly; teaching them a trade or skill are all worthwhile and in their and our interests.
Yes, agreed. I see the time I spent on the Justice Select Committee as the most useful part of my involvement, and when we looked at prisons it was really clear that (a) the primary concern was managing the population, not training them for anything and (b) recidivism was much higher than in countries that tried harder (IIRC 70%+ reoffend in Britain within 2 years, vs about 20% in Norway). For example, although there are to be fair lots of training opportunities, they don't lead to a qualification, and no attempt is made to enable prisoners to finish courses if administrative convenience means they need to be switched to another prison.
Part of the reason for that was overcrowding - prisons were desperate to manage the numbers and that often involved moving prisoners around to maximise use of space. But it was clear that many prisons were only paying lip-service to training and skills.
I think it'd be useful to give prisoners the vote, purely to give some MPs a direct personal interest in sorting the issue out. At present, most MPs never visit a prison and take no interest in what they're like. This isn't about liberal or harsh treatment, so much as about effectiveness.
Good insight Nick, great to have people with such experience around.
One might hope that with a reputation of making changes for the better against institutional opposition and an interest in education, Michael Gove might be the minister to fix the problems in the prison system.
stodge said "History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this. "
Yep. By spontaneous free association the following words sprand into my mind: "WW1, reparations, inflation, facism, WW2."
I think I've solved the puzzle as to what on earth Tsipras was doing with his seemingly mad strategy. It all makes perfect sense if he's actually an über-Thatcherite sound-money man, who was convinced that the only way forward for Greece was very tight fiscal policy and engaging on very deep reforms to the labour market and pensions, dismantling of restrictive practices, extensive privatisations, getting rid of nepotism, and destroying the power of the unions. His approach was a brilliant way of making all this politically possible in Greece.
Its fantasy land. It looks good in the papers, it wont happen.
The culture of corruption in Greece like many similar countries runs from top to bottom. Even assuming that the required laws can be changed, which is very dubious, it wont make a jot of difference because all the parties that might be involved in enforcing it benefit from the current system, and will be dragging their heels as hard as they can. Countries like Italy changed their laws years ago, and yet the amount of income tax most people pay is settled over a nice bottle of wine with their tax official, and bears no real resemblance to the actual amount due. The tax collector has no incentive to change the system, he likes his bottle of wine and the envelope of euros in his back pocket. The tax collectors boss has no incentive to check up on the tax collector because he enjoys a healthy cut from all of those envelopes, and proportion of which he and his peers pass on to their boss. That sort of culture takes decades to change, no a few laws passed in the teeth of public opposition by a discredited government. We will be back here in less than six months.
It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them.
''making all this politically possible in Greece. ''
Always supposing it is politically possible in Greece.
The only reason Thatcherism was politically possible in the UK was because Thatcher was elected, had the necessary Parliamentary majority, the opposition was split or indulged in violent and/or illegal tactics, there was a feeling in the country that things were not working and something needed to be done and a large dose of luck. And even then there was a lot of opposition and riots and difficulties.
None of this pertains in Greece. Imposing a harsh settlement on people who don't vote from the outside seems the worst possible way to carry out reforms, however necessary they may be. You can't beat people into being good.
Does this deal even solve Greece's problems? It still has enormous debts which it can't ever pay. So what - really - has been achieved?
Mrs Scrap's birthday soon - I think that I'm right in saying there is nothing she'd like more than a DVD of the entire election night coverage from Sky......
If indeed there was to be a box set of all channels coverage that night then that might just be her Xmas present sorted too.
Anyone able to direct me to such a source of this no doubt popular compilation?
Yes, agreed. I see the time I spent on the Justice Select Committee as the most useful part of my involvement, and when we looked at prisons it was really clear that (a) the primary concern was managing the population, not training them for anything and (b) recidivism was much higher than in countries that tried harder (IIRC 70%+ reoffend in Britain within 2 years, vs about 20% in Norway). For example, although there are to be fair lots of training opportunities, they don't lead to a qualification, and no attempt is made to enable prisoners to finish courses if administrative convenience means they need to be switched to another prison.
Part of the reason for that was overcrowding - prisons were desperate to manage the numbers and that often involved moving prisoners around to maximise use of space. But it was clear that many prisons were only paying lip-service to training and skills.
I think it'd be useful to give prisoners the vote, purely to give some MPs a direct personal interest in sorting the issue out. At present, most MPs never visit a prison and take no interest in what they're like. This isn't about liberal or harsh treatment, so much as about effectiveness.
I suspect the lower re-offending rate in Norway is more to do with the overall culture of the country than the prison system. I imagine it's a lot harder to be a career criminal in a low population density country where a lot of people know each other and communities are very tight. You can't disappear into the fog, as you can in our big cities.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Utter garbage. The EU is in no way bound by a Greek referendum. That is Tsipras's bag - he is the one who has betrayed his voters. The Greek vote was an internal matter - why on earth should the peoples of Latvia, Finland, Spain, Holland or anywhere else be required to give more money to the Greeks because they voted for it. I am not a fan of the EU but what you write is quite nonsensical and does the anti-EU cause no favours.
Not sure who is talking the most garbage here.
The Greek Referendum is not saying that the German tax payers have to spend a single cent more. It is asking if the Greek voters accepted the required austerity measures, and that is all. When they said no, German was quite at liberty so say that it was unfortunate but they were not prepared to pay and more and Greece was out the Euro.
Both sides are as bad as each other. Greece wants to be in the Euro without the financial discipline it required. Germany (and France) want Balkan states with dubious financial records in the EU, but doesn't want to foot the bill. Both the Greek and German leaders want Greece to leave the Euro, neither of them want it to look like it was at their instigation. Shameful all around.
My point - which you patently missed, was that lots of people on here and elsewhere have quoted the referendum result as if it did require the EU to accept it solely because it is 'democracy in action'. The people would no doubt vote strongly in favour of apple pie for everyone and the word austerity to be removed from the OED. It would be just as meaningless. With regard to the Euro - it is a club with membership rules. When you break them to the extent the Greeks did I'm unsure why anyone should be surprised when poverty stricken Latvia, among other creditors, baulk at the bill. This notion of continually blaming lenders when things go wrong is not helpful. Britain has had the sense to stay out of it and I'm not sure it has a future but to pretend the implications of membership are not obvious is pretty insulting to the Greeks. I think they knew what they were doing. and now they are paying the price. Caveat emptor - perhaps they don't understand Latin
One might hope that with a reputation of making changes for the better against institutional opposition and an interest in education, Michael Gove might be the minister to fix the problems in the prison system.
Yes, leaving politics aside, the obvious thing about Gove is that he's an activist minister, and prisons badly need that. He was getting silly when he started picking individual books that he didn't like to exclude from the curriculum, but that sort of zealous interventionism may be exactly what prisons need.
Partly because I've taken a step back from frontline politics and partly because it's nearly 5 years to the next GE, I'm feeling less interested in the Con-Lab battle and more in discussing policies that will work. Even as an MP it was obvious that maybe 70% of issues were just difficult and any imaginative politician might come up with the best approach, rather than susceptible to a "my party's right, the others suck" approach. If Gove can achieve some radical improvements, good for him.
One might hope that with a reputation of making changes for the better against institutional opposition and an interest in education, Michael Gove might be the minister to fix the problems in the prison system.
Yes, leaving politics aside, the obvious thing about Gove is that he's an activist minister, and prisons badly need that. He was getting silly when he started picking individual books that he didn't like to exclude from the curriculum, but that sort of zealous interventionism may be exactly what prisons need.
Partly because I've taken a step back from frontline politics and partly because it's nearly 5 years to the next GE, I'm feeling less interested in the Con-Lab battle and more in discussing policies that will work. Even as an MP it was obvious that maybe 70% of issues were just difficult and any imaginative politician might come up with the best approach, rather than susceptible to a "my party's right, the others suck" approach. If Gove can achieve some radical improvements, good for him.
If there's one public organisation with a blob that needs taking on, it's the prison service.
Greece is being described as a corrupt and incompetent country, which may well be true. This is not news, however, and was known - or should have been - well before it joined the euro.
But let's look at who is saying this:-
1. Italy: Corruption is a way of life in Italy from top to bottom. Virtually every government from the end of WW2 onwards was corrupt and this has continued to this day. In Italy's case, that corruption extended to helping the Mafia or turning a blind eye to it - see Andreotti. The consequences of such corruption have extended far beyond Italy's borders. No-one sane would describe any of Italy's governments as competent.
2. France: a country described as being like Italy but without Italy's magistrates. A number of very senior politicians, including Presidents have been accused or charged with corruption. Not quite as full of clean hands as some might like to make out.
3. Spain: it too has had significant issues with corruption in public life, including the Socialist party which governed it for many years and, I gather, the parties of the right.
4. Belgium: oh dear! Weren't there issues with defence contracts, Augusta and politicians accepting envelopes full of cash?
5. Germany: probably not corrupt but not a country with a glorious history of paying all its debts either.
"Beams" and "motes" come to mind when listening the political morality tale coming out of Brussels this morning.
My point - which you patently missed, was that lots of people on here and elsewhere have quoted the referendum result as if it did require the EU to accept it solely because it is 'democracy in action'. The people would no doubt vote strongly in favour of apple pie for everyone and the word austerity to be removed from the OED. It would be just as meaningless. With regard to the Euro - it is a club with membership rules. When you break them to the extent the Greeks did I'm unsure why anyone should be surprised when poverty stricken Latvia, among other creditors, baulk at the bill. This notion of continually blaming lenders when things go wrong is not helpful. Britain has had the sense to stay out of it and I'm not sure it has a future but to pretend the implications of membership are not obvious is pretty insulting to the Greeks. I think they knew what they were doing. and now they are paying the price. Caveat emptor - perhaps they don't understand Latin
You obviously missed the wording of the Greek referendum. All it asked was whether the people wanted to accept or reject the documents proposing the new austerity measures. They rejected it. They are completely entitled to reject it, that is completely within their rights. We should respect their decision to reject it. None of that forces us to pay them or lend them anything. It would have been very straightforward, and entirely correct is democratic terms to say words to the effect of "The EU regrets the decision of the Greek people to reject the terms we have proposed to extend the bail out, further bail outs will no longer be forthcoming and you will have to make you own arrangements to ensure the liquidity of your banks".
I don't see what is so hard about this, the Greeks expressed a democratic will not to comply with the bail out terms, so end the bail outs and let them go it alone. There is no obligation either expressed on implied for any other country to do anything, except that the EU powers are desperate for no one to leave so the fudging started.
There was a fascinating and quite gruesome doc on BBC4 a month or so back called The Savage Peace - about the reprisals on German civilians after WW2 ended. Apparently it was routine to rape and GBH any Germans the local populace found and 500k were murdered.
stodge said "History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this. "
Yep. By spontaneous free association the following words sprand into my mind: "WW1, reparations, inflation, facism, WW2."
My point - which you patently missed, was that lots of people on here and elsewhere have quoted the referendum result as if it did require the EU to accept it solely because it is 'democracy in action'. The people would no doubt vote strongly in favour of apple pie for everyone and the word austerity to be removed from the OED. It would be just as meaningless. With regard to the Euro - it is a club with membership rules. When you break them to the extent the Greeks did I'm unsure why anyone should be surprised when poverty stricken Latvia, among other creditors, baulk at the bill. This notion of continually blaming lenders when things go wrong is not helpful. Britain has had the sense to stay out of it and I'm not sure it has a future but to pretend the implications of membership are not obvious is pretty insulting to the Greeks. I think they knew what they were doing. and now they are paying the price. Caveat emptor - perhaps they don't understand Latin
You obviously missed the wording of the Greek referendum. All it asked was whether the people wanted to accept or reject the documents proposing the new austerity measures. They rejected it. They are completely entitled to reject it, that is completely within their rights. We should respect their decision to reject it. None of that forces us to pay them or lend them anything. It would have been very straightforward, and entirely correct is democratic terms to say words to the effect of "The EU regrets the decision of the Greek people to reject the terms we have proposed to extend the bail out, further bail outs will no longer be forthcoming and you will have to make you own arrangements to ensure the liquidity of your banks".
I don't see what is so hard about this, the Greeks expressed a democratic will not to comply with the bail out terms, so end the bail outs and let them go it alone. There is no obligation either expressed on implied for any other country to do anything, except that the EU powers are desperate for no one to leave so the fudging started.
What's hard about it is that the Greeks also had a democratically elected government, which immediately asked the EU to make a deal after all, which they had a right to do so under the Greek constitution.
At that point if the other EU governments had gone over the heads of the Greek government and tried to interpret the will of Greece themselves, most of the people who are currently complaining about what they did would instead be complaining that they'd undemocratically refused to deal with the democratically elected Greek government.
In response to Indigo: "to pretend the implications of membership are not obvious is pretty insulting to the Greeks."
The same might equally be said about the Germans and Latvians and Finns. In a common currency area that works there need to be fiscal transfers.
Having told the Greeks that a "no" in the referendum meant they were out of the euro, they should have stuck to it. Instead of which they've cobbled together yet another fudge which will likely work no better than any of the other fudges over the years.
I wasn't actually thinking of those instances (though they fit the argument). I was thinking about the contrasting treatment of Germany and Italy after the two World Wars. While I wouldn't put current events in that league, Versailles was a national humiliation for the Germans (and subordinate treaties such as Trianon were for others) and we all know what happened after 1918.
The problem with the Treaty of Versailles was that it was too lenient, not that it was too harsh. This was because it left a defeated Germany, whose grievances were not legitimate, with the capacity to wage war. The terms of the settlement were less harsh than that Germany imposed at Brest-Litovsk. German policy had been to finance the war by taking reparations from defeated countries. The same mistake was not made after the Second World War, when Germany, albeit out of pragmatic necessity, was partitioned.
Those who cite the success of Marshall aid often neglect to mention that the Soviet Union extracted an approximately equivalent capital sum from Eastern Europe as the Americans put in the immediate aftermath of 1945. East Germany was not treated with the same forgiveness as the West. Who is to say it say the Soviets' approach was an injustice?
One might hope that with a reputation of making changes for the better against institutional opposition and an interest in education, Michael Gove might be the minister to fix the problems in the prison system.
Yes, leaving politics aside, the obvious thing about Gove is that he's an activist minister, and prisons badly need that. He was getting silly when he started picking individual books that he didn't like to exclude from the curriculum, but that sort of zealous interventionism may be exactly what prisons need.
Partly because I've taken a step back from frontline politics and partly because it's nearly 5 years to the next GE, I'm feeling less interested in the Con-Lab battle and more in discussing policies that will work. Even as an MP it was obvious that maybe 70% of issues were just difficult and any imaginative politician might come up with the best approach, rather than susceptible to a "my party's right, the others suck" approach. If Gove can achieve some radical improvements, good for him.
Well said Nick! Maybe it would be good every few decades to have a 'National Government' to sort out the "This needs doing but we need electing again afterwards" pile of stuff, to have the great minds in Parliament put aside their partisan exaggeration of small differences and look at what works best for the country.
On a similar note, I see Harriet Harman and Liz Kendall giving qualified support to the tax credit reform, well done to them. I wonder if Kendall could work well with Cameron on the above "needs doing" list? They are both pragmatic centrists who don't seem too worried about offending those on the extreme of their own party in order to do what is best for the country.
There was a fascinating and quite gruesome doc on BBC4 a month or so back called The Savage Peace - about the reprisals on German civilians after WW2 ended. Apparently it was routine to rape and GBH any Germans the local populace found and 500k were murdered.
stodge said "History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this. "
Yep. By spontaneous free association the following words sprand into my mind: "WW1, reparations, inflation, facism, WW2."
I saw that. Quite gruesome. There have been some good books on the what happened in the months and years after the war ended and the fighting/civil wars/reprisals and other stuff which happened even though the war had officially ended.
If you sow hatred, you reap it for years after. The Germans learnt that in 1945.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
It was a truly bizarre policy and I am glad Gove has had the common sense as well as the decency to recognise that fairly quickly.
Chris Grayling is just a very poor minister, as he is again demonstrating with his EV4EL backtracking. There must be more talented people than him that Cameron could appoint.
The levels he achieved in government continue to astonish me. Thankfully his career is now on a downward trajectory and once he has screwed up EVEL he might well be finished altogether.
I genuinely believe that the standard of ministers in this government is well above average but there are always exceptions.
The sentences imposed for fraud infuriate me. They are far too low. He gets five years. Adoboli who was responsible for Britain's biggest fraud - £2.3 billion in 2011 - gets 7 years. The maximum sentence is 10 years. If Britain's biggest fraud is not worth a 10-year sentence what the hell will be?
Fraud is serious not because of the loss of money, bad as that is but because it corrodes and destroys trust. And without trust how can you have banking, how can you have good administration, how can you have a worthwhile political system?
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
It was a truly bizarre policy and I am glad Gove has had the common sense as well as the decency to recognise that fairly quickly.
Chris Grayling is just a very poor minister, as he is again demonstrating with his EV4EL backtracking. There must be more talented people than him that Cameron could appoint.
The levels he achieved in government continue to astonish me. Thankfully his career is now on a downward trajectory and once he has screwed up EVEL he might well be finished altogether.
I genuinely believe that the standard of ministers in this government is well above average but there are always exceptions.
EVEL is too serious to be left to an incompetent Minister to mess up.
Tomorrow: Aditya Chakrabortty on “How can Britain pay its way in the world?” could be interesting. Some of the comments are most amusing:
"Labour should rename itself to reflect the fact it represents, in order
- the upper class left elite who require captive votes to pursue their own deeply selfish and anti-labiur (small l) agenda. - the state bureaucracy that run the country for the first - the migrants imported by the first in mass numbers to divide and fragment the working class and provide captive votes more reliably than the former (if they ever become less dependent they will of course be turned on at that point, see Catholics, Jews, women who don't conform, and of course before all, the indigenous working class) - those on benefits, there to be bought and paid for in service to more votes; any measure that may help these people to self sufficiency is the first thing that must be opposed
Hard to think of a short title that sums all this up. I favour 'the Progressive party' for all the hubris and appealing history it encapsulates. But in a party very largely aimed at media hipsters I'm sure someone from the party ranks can do better."
"Hmmm let me see.
The working class voter who cares about jobs, wages
OR
the PPE grad, cheese and wine party knobhead of the chatterati caring more about climate change and Rwandan lesbian poets?
There was a fascinating and quite gruesome doc on BBC4 a month or so back called The Savage Peace - about the reprisals on German civilians after WW2 ended. Apparently it was routine to rape and GBH any Germans the local populace found and 500k were murdered.
stodge said "History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this. " Yep. By spontaneous free association the following words sprand into my mind: "WW1, reparations, inflation, facism, WW2."
Miss Plato - the first thing the Russians did when they entered Germany was to rape the women - of all ages - and then crucify them nailed to barn doors. Welcome to the Eastern Front.
Greece is being described as a corrupt and incompetent country, which may well be true. This is not news, however, and was known - or should have been - well before it joined the euro.
But let's look at who is saying this:-
1. Italy: Corruption is a way of life in Italy from top to bottom. Virtually every government from the end of WW2 onwards was corrupt and this has continued to this day. In Italy's case, that corruption extended to helping the Mafia or turning a blind eye to it - see Andreotti. The consequences of such corruption have extended far beyond Italy's borders. No-one sane would describe any of Italy's governments as competent.
2. France: a country described as being like Italy but without Italy's magistrates. A number of very senior politicians, including Presidents have been accused or charged with corruption. Not quite as full of clean hands as some might like to make out.
3. Spain: it too has had significant issues with corruption in public life, including the Socialist party which governed it for many years and, I gather, the parties of the right.
4. Belgium: oh dear! Weren't there issues with defence contracts, Augusta and politicians accepting envelopes full of cash?
5. Germany: probably not corrupt but not a country with a glorious history of paying all its debts either.
"Beams" and "motes" come to mind when listening the political morality tale coming out of Brussels this morning.
Your list does not match Transparency international very well.
In response to Indigo: "to pretend the implications of membership are not obvious is pretty insulting to the Greeks."
The same might equally be said about the Germans and Latvians and Finns. In a common currency area that works there need to be fiscal transfers.
Having told the Greeks that a "no" in the referendum meant they were out of the euro, they should have stuck to it. Instead of which they've cobbled together yet another fudge which will likely work no better than any of the other fudges over the years.
I agree with that but it is unrealistic, unless you have a single unified country, to have fiscal transfers indefinitely. And even Liverpool paid into the UK coffers once upon a time.
So if you are to have a single currency you must work towards economic cohesion. That will involve the sort of infrastructure investment the EU has poured into eastern Europe but it also requires those countries to adopt policies that actually work, to keep borrowing under control and to ensure that the State does not eat so much of the cake that the private sector cannot remain competitive.
The problem with the EZ has not been that it has been overly dominant but that it has been far too weak and failed to enforce its own rules. This is partly because the public were lied to about the implications of a single currency. It is, in truth, possibly the single largest loss of sovereignty short of military occupation. That truth has been exposed by the travesty that is Greece and I think it may well take years for the implications of that to work their way through.
A Greek minister on R4 this morning commented that the idea of ever closer union when Member States got treated like this was fantastical. I think Cameron should be banned from playing the lottery. It would not be fair on the rest of us.
There was a fascinating and quite gruesome doc on BBC4 a month or so back called The Savage Peace - about the reprisals on German civilians after WW2 ended. Apparently it was routine to rape and GBH any Germans the local populace found and 500k were murdered.
stodge said "History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this. "
Yep. By spontaneous free association the following words sprand into my mind: "WW1, reparations, inflation, facism, WW2."
I saw that. Quite gruesome. There have been some good books on the what happened in the months and years after the war ended and the fighting/civil wars/reprisals and other stuff which happened even though the war had officially ended.
If you sow hatred, you reap it for years after. The Germans learnt that in 1945.
A lesson worth all of us learning.
It is why collective communal punishment in response to terrorism is oil on the fire.
"Unfortunately, even if Labour’s current contenders have their talents, its domination by professionalised politicians always threatens to render even its more promising messages tinny and forced.
And another good one on the SNP MPs:
The people they represent are their friends and neighbours, whereas nobody is even trying to pretend that Ed Miliband is hanging out with his mates in Doncaster in his leisure time. And the bloodless career politicians who have bounced from PPE at Oxford to a thinktank to the front bench or shadow front bench are nowhere to be seen in the SNP. Not least because no one in their right mind thought there was any career in Westminster politics for an SNP MP.
The difference between their energy, optimism and conviction and what I saw at the Labour party conference in Manchester last autumn is striking.
I caught an interview with Ed at his local pit, which is in the process of being closed down, suffice to say by the time the miners were coming off shift he was long gone - says it all about the metropolitan Labour elite.
Turning to the Guardian piece, a further point I would make is that most constituencies were awash with SNP candidates. In my constituency, Stirling, we had 8 local candidates to choose from - 4 with political backgrounds, 3 local business owners and an academic. The seat was won by the council leader of the SNP.
You are blind and deaf. You are the entrenched position. There will be little difference to being in or out. These are the facts of life. I can happily live with being in the EEA - especially if it is by mutual consent - but I am not so naive as to think it will make any difference, or that simply walking out irrespective of terms is clever. It may be the best for us but the EU will not go away. The absolute issue is the Eurozone and how we relate to the inevitable ever closer union of it within the EU. The Eurozone will become a defacto single continental-wide country. A common currency with common interest rates will lead to common taxation policies will lead to common economic policies and common political decisions. We will not be part of that and we have to decide how to relate to it.
Why must people on this forum be so rude?
Some are, most are not. Sadly, that ratios can be much much worse.
If Labour really had 16,000 conversations with voters in Leicester South between January and May this year, that's a shocking waste of resources. Getting 60% in Leicester South isn't much use when you come up short in every marginal in the East Midlands.
My point - which you patently missed, was that lots of people on here and elsewhere have quoted the referendum result as if it did require the EU to accept it solely because it is 'democracy in action'. The people would no doubt vote strongly in favour of apple pie for everyone and the word austerity to be removed from the OED. It would be just as meaningless. With regard to the Euro - it is a club with membership rules. When you break them to the extent the Greeks did I'm unsure why anyone should be surprised when poverty stricken Latvia, among other creditors, baulk at the bill. This notion of continually blaming lenders when things go wrong is not helpful. Britain has had the sense to stay out of it and I'm not sure it has a future but to pretend the implications of membership are not obvious is pretty insulting to the Greeks. I think they knew what they were doing. and now they are paying the price. Caveat emptor - perhaps they don't understand Latin
You obviously missed the wording of the Greek referendum. All it asked was whether the people wanted to accept or reject the documents proposing the new austerity measures. They rejected it. They are completely entitled to reject it, that is completely within their rights. We should respect their decision to reject it. None of that forces us to pay them or lend them anything. It would have been very straightforward, and entirely correct is democratic terms to say words to the effect of "The EU regrets the decision of the Greek people to reject the terms we have proposed to extend the bail out, further bail outs will no longer be forthcoming and you will have to make you own arrangements to ensure the liquidity of your banks".
I don't see what is so hard about this, the Greeks expressed a democratic will not to comply with the bail out terms, so end the bail outs and let them go it alone. There is no obligation either expressed on implied for any other country to do anything, except that the EU powers are desperate for no one to leave so the fudging started.
You clearly do not wish to see my point. The Greeks can vote as they wish. It does not give observers the right to say, as some have, that therefore the EU should pay up. I cannot make it any clearer for you sadly. As it is, Tsipras has been humiliated. Job done. Podemos, etc take note.
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
It was a truly bizarre policy and I am glad Gove has had the common sense as well as the decency to recognise that fairly quickly.
Chris Grayling is just a very poor minister, as he is again demonstrating with his EV4EL backtracking. There must be more talented people than him that Cameron could appoint.
The levels he achieved in government continue to astonish me. Thankfully his career is now on a downward trajectory and once he has screwed up EVEL he might well be finished altogether.
I genuinely believe that the standard of ministers in this government is well above average but there are always exceptions.
EVEL is too serious to be left to an incompetent Minister to mess up.
Clearly it would be better if it was not messed up but it will only really become an issue when we have a minority Labour/SNP government. Thankfully that is some way off.
''making all this politically possible in Greece. ''
Always supposing it is politically possible in Greece.
The only reason Thatcherism was politically possible in the UK was because Thatcher was elected, had the necessary Parliamentary majority, the opposition was split or indulged in violent and/or illegal tactics, there was a feeling in the country that things were not working and something needed to be done and a large dose of luck. And even then there was a lot of opposition and riots and difficulties. None of this pertains in Greece. Imposing a harsh settlement on people who don't vote from the outside seems the worst possible way to carry out reforms, however necessary they may be. You can't beat people into being good. Does this deal even solve Greece's problems? It still has enormous debts which it can't ever pay. So what - really - has been achieved?
This I believe is the third bailout following I don't know how many haircuts. 'harsh settlement'? Ho ho ho. All of a sudden the 'it will be kicked down the road' and 'fudge' brigade and now saying the EU are after a pound of flesh. Come on people - make your mind up.
Is it not a little ironic that the one thing Greece could do with is tourism, yet if this deal is as harsh as some are suggesting, then would it not be advisable for German holiday makers to avoid Greece for the next few years?
The sentences imposed for fraud infuriate me. They are far too low. He gets five years. Adoboli who was responsible for Britain's biggest fraud - £2.3 billion in 2011 - gets 7 years. The maximum sentence is 10 years. If Britain's biggest fraud is not worth a 10-year sentence what the hell will be?
Fraud is serious not because of the loss of money, bad as that is but because it corrodes and destroys trust. And without trust how can you have banking, how can you have good administration, how can you have a worthwhile political system?
It doesn't seem much of a deterrent. Is the proceeds of crime act also applicable in such cases?
NicK P said, "I'm feeling less interested in the Con-Lab battle and more in discussing policies that will work."
I find that admission somewhat depressing. Surely every MP who represents their constituents should focus on 'what can work' and not unrealistic party ideology. Yes, good ideas can be in advance of their time, but surely all MPs should think beyond the 5 years and preferably at 15-20 years as decisions made now can take that long to show their true effect.
Quite frankly it amazes me that of the four Lab leader candidates, only one is looking at events and future events and being practical instead of following one form or other of party line and ideology. We need desperately deep and wide-ranging thinkers in HoP and whose thinking is adaptable to both events and future scenarios. Even Harriet has realised that Labour was preaching to the electorate a sermon that was no longer relevant to the electorate - that is why the profile of the new Labour intake is so depressing.
''making all this politically possible in Greece. ''
Always supposing it is politically possible in Greece.
The only reason Thatcherism was politically possible in the UK was because Thatcher was elected, had the necessary Parliamentary majority, the opposition was split or indulged in violent and/or illegal tactics, there was a feeling in the country that things were not working and something needed to be done and a large dose of luck. And even then there was a lot of opposition and riots and difficulties.
None of this pertains in Greece. Imposing a harsh settlement on people who don't vote from the outside seems the worst possible way to carry out reforms, however necessary they may be. You can't beat people into being good.
Does this deal even solve Greece's problems? It still has enormous debts which it can't ever pay. So what - really - has been achieved?
So if you're right that external imposition is the worst way to - say - get an effective tax collection regime set up in Greece, what's the best way, and why hasn't it worked so far?
Yes, exactly. Humiliating the Egyptians and Ottomans (or throwing out Mossadeq) might have seemed the right thing to do at the time, but I don't think anyone would now argue that the rise of Arab nationalism, and then radical Islamism, turned out well for Western interests.
I wasn't actually thinking of those instances (though they fit the argument). I was thinking about the contrasting treatment of Germany and Italy after the two World Wars. While I wouldn't put current events in that league, Versailles was a national humiliation for the Germans (and subordinate treaties such as Trianon were for others) and we all know what happened after 1918. An angry, bitter and resentful Greece inside the EU is something that will take careful managing - I suppose some in the EZ were worried the Greeks would run out of the EU and perhaps NATO as well and head for the fond embrace of Putin.
You don't think that the Greek people have been led up the garden path and misled by their politicians of all stripes for at least a generation over the EU and the Euro then? Note I am not defending the EU/Eurozone - it just hoped for the best during this time and did nothing meaningful. Two world wars BTW left Germany in ruins. Even at this distance I cannot work up much sympathy for that. They brought it on themselves.
But the debacles of yesteryear were different. They were committed by statesmen. People who knew what they wanted and miscalculated. It was hard to see last night what the rulers of Europe wanted.
What they’ve arguably got is a global reputational disaster: the crushing of a left-wing government elected on a landslide, the flouting of a 61 per cent referendum result. The EU – a project founded to avoid conflict and deliver social justice – found itself transformed into the conveyor of relentless financial logic and nothing else.
Ordinary people don’t know enough about the financial logic to understand why this was always likely to happen: bonds, haircuts and currency mechanisms are distant concepts. Democracy is not. Everybody on earth with a smartphone understands what happened to democracy last night.
Oh for god's sake Paul Mason, I'm as worried at the effects of this national humilation to Greece as anyone, but given the tone of the piece I don't think you were including the Greek government in the 'rulers of Europe' flouting of a 61% referendum result. The EU has been callous, possibly self defeating, but they didn't flout any result - it wasn't possible for them to do so as they were not bound by it in the first place.
There was a fascinating and quite gruesome doc on BBC4 a month or so back called The Savage Peace - about the reprisals on German civilians after WW2 ended. Apparently it was routine to rape and GBH any Germans the local populace found and 500k were murdered.
stodge said "History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this. " Yep. By spontaneous free association the following words sprand into my mind: "WW1, reparations, inflation, facism, WW2."
Miss Plato - the first thing the Russians did when they entered Germany was to rape the women - of all ages - and then crucify them nailed to barn doors. Welcome to the Eastern Front.
Indeed so. Didn't some German divisions leave their posts in the East so they could surrender to the Western forces, which in a personal sense was probably a wise move?
''making all this politically possible in Greece. ''
Always supposing it is politically possible in Greece.
The only reason Thatcherism was politically possible in the UK was because Thatcher was elected, had the necessary Parliamentary majority, the opposition was split or indulged in violent and/or illegal tactics, there was a feeling in the country that things were not working and something needed to be done and a large dose of luck. And even then there was a lot of opposition and riots and difficulties. None of this pertains in Greece. Imposing a harsh settlement on people who don't vote from the outside seems the worst possible way to carry out reforms, however necessary they may be. You can't beat people into being good. Does this deal even solve Greece's problems? It still has enormous debts which it can't ever pay. So what - really - has been achieved?
This I believe is the third bailout following I don't know how many haircuts. 'harsh settlement'? Ho ho ho. All of a sudden the 'it will be kicked down the road' and 'fudge' brigade and now saying the EU are after a pound of flesh. Come on people - make your mind up.
Most of the frustrated rage this morning comes from those who still believe that the Euro will fail and saw the first member leaving in chaos. There are a lot of people who have been predicting the collapse of the Euro since before its inception and they have no doubt every hurdle will be the one that will prove them right.
They are wrong. The Euro will survive, it will continue to have substantial international influence well beyond the EU, it will continue to develop as an alternative to the dollar and it will continue to spread as smaller countries continue to join it.
Since this is so contrary to the world view of the europhobics they rant with a slightly weird combination of anti German rhetoric (even in support of a government that would make Ed look like Thatcher) and accusations of fudge, totally ignoring the very clear determination of the members of the EZ to stay together, whatever the cost.
There are, in fairness, also some on the left who hate the idea that governments can spend without consequence has once again been demonstrated to be lunatic. But they are a relatively small minority. Disordered though their thinking is, at least they care tuppance about the consequences for the people of Greece.
''making all this politically possible in Greece. ''
Always supposing it is politically possible in Greece.
The only reason Thatcherism was politically possible in the UK was because Thatcher was elected, had the necessary Parliamentary majority, the opposition was split or indulged in violent and/or illegal tactics, there was a feeling in the country that things were not working and something needed to be done and a large dose of luck. And even then there was a lot of opposition and riots and difficulties.
None of this pertains in Greece. Imposing a harsh settlement on people who don't vote from the outside seems the worst possible way to carry out reforms, however necessary they may be. You can't beat people into being good.
Does this deal even solve Greece's problems? It still has enormous debts which it can't ever pay. So what - really - has been achieved?
So if you're right that external imposition is the worst way to - say - get an effective tax collection regime set up in Greece, what's the best way, and why hasn't it worked so far?
Edmund, this conversation reminds me of the process of getting addicts to change their damaging behaviour. Of course, the only way to have a good shot at lasting change is once the addict admits the addiction and personally decides to and commits to change. But absent that, an outside intervention might help get the addict to that stage. It explains why the Germans were so reluctant to do this deal and why the lack of trust was front and centre in the negotiations.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 2m2 minutes ago Andy Burnham seeking to enthuse the audience, including the man behind, in the BBC2 LAB leadership debate.
Comments
Alternatively:
https://twitter.com/anthonypainter/status/619491783584653312
I'm not a huge fan of this Government and don't like much of what it's doing and saying but Michael Gove's decision to rescind the ban on books being sent to prisoners is hugely welcome. I'm disappointed that in Coalition the LDs didn't make more of this but that's the past.
It's a welcome recognition that education is one of the key weapons in the fight against re-offending and a sign perhaps that rehabilitation through education, training and re-skilling is coming back to the forefront of penal policy.
The claim, however, that there would be no difference between membership of the EU and the EEA is false and verging towards the dishonest. On the constitutional side, '[r]elevant differences between the EEA Agreement and the [EU Treaties] include the absence in the EEA Agreement of important principles of [EU] law such as transfer of legislative powers, direct effect and primacy of [EU] legislation' (Sveinbjornsdottir v Iceland [1999] 1 CMLR 884, 897).
As for the substantive side, the following do not exist: the EEA's common foreign and security policy, the EEA's external action service, common EEA citizenship, the EEA's charter of fundamental rights, the EEA's "area of freedom, justice and security", the EEA's "economic and monetary union". The EEA agreement also limits the sovereignty of signatories to a lesser extent than EU membership in areas where the EU has shared competence with the member states under article 3(2) TFEU.
So we can agree that membership of the EEA and membership of the EU is not a matter of small differences?
Very brave. Not necessarily very wise, though.
That said, PB is very civilised compared with most internet forums!
Re Greece, without a decent stimulus package they will never get out of the hole they find themselves, there appears to be 25 Billion Euro kicking around for "investment" perhaps some of this may actually find its way into reviving the economy. Worth remembering Greece's GDP was growing at 4% before the 2008 crisis.
Gladstone would have been proud.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e38a452e-26f2-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz3flPmwY5I
For those that cannot see behind the paywall, the title is: "Greece’s brutal creditors have demolished the eurozone project" and the opening sentence is: "A few things that many of us took for granted, and that some of us believed in, ended in a single weekend."
George Galloway and Boris prob could be added to that list
Peter Hitchens yesterday supported Corbyn on the basis at least he meant what he said
Maybe labour should take a few years off to get back to their core values rather than craving power at any cost
The prospects of the Euro getting to its 30th anniversary in anything like its current form are diminished this morning.
I did unwisely offer that claiming your lunch as expenses was perhaps a loophole that needed to be filled but as I ducked for cover behind the sofa, did agree that business-related travel expenses were different and should be treated differently.
The increasingly-Tory inclined Evening Standard claimed it was a "game changer". I struggle to see that - the £9 National Living Wage is welcome but I'm already seeing in my work around local authorities that more and more are replacing full-time older staff with younger apprentices who cost much less. The problem is there will be a huge turnover as these apprentices move on to bigger and better jobs elsewhere.
I look at many of the organisations that employ people and wonder how they will pay the £9 wage - will there be a pool of older unemployed created or will businesses pass on these costs in the form of higher prices ? It's a politically attractive policy but to me looks superficial and I have plenty of doubts as to its viability.
On the liberalisation of Sunday trading, as Mrs Stodge and I were enjoying our evening perambulation down East Ham High Street, I noted the only shops open were the Romanian food shops and the betting shops - the latter performing the function of social club for many local men (as the pubs once did). The law needs tidying up - whether it needs complete liberalisation I'm to be convinced.
Congratulations in advance to you and Mrs DL on the upcoming, I only met Mrs Stodge late in life but it was worth the wait..
The truth is not even the Germans and French complied with the rules they originally set themselves. No-one has complied with the rules; no-one has been honest about the implications of the euro; everyone has - seemingly - elevated the interests of a currency and banks above the interests of the people whom the governments are meant to serve.
Meanwhile in Greece the banks are closed for a third successive week, people are sorting through rubbish bins to find something to eat and a European country cannot fund medecines or basic medical equipment for its hospitals. That Nobel Peace Prize was well chosen.
The fact that we have had to wait for the demise of the LDs for this budget shows what a waste of space they were. Which is very sad as originally I was willing to give them a chance.
The people they represent are their friends and neighbours, whereas nobody is even trying to pretend that Ed Miliband is hanging out with his mates in Doncaster in his leisure time. And the bloodless career politicians who have bounced from PPE at Oxford to a thinktank to the front bench or shadow front bench are nowhere to be seen in the SNP. Not least because no one in their right mind thought there was any career in Westminster politics for an SNP MP.
The difference between their energy, optimism and conviction and what I saw at the Labour party conference in Manchester last autumn is striking.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/12/snp-mps-at-westminster-scotland
Actual SNP: 50, LAB: 24.3
Final polls
YouGov: SNP: 48, LAB: 28
Survation: SNP: 46, LAB: 26
Panelbase: SNP: 48, LAB: 26
But the idea that the polls didn't pick up the SNP surge is loony toons. As even on those projections the SNP was sweeping Scotland.
George learns on the job.
All of this shows why Harriet is right and 3 of the 4 leadership candidates are wrong. If Liz Kendall does not come out all guns blazing today supporting Harriet she really does deserve to come nowhere in this contest.
If I had been involved in her campaign I would have had her on every media outlet available this morning (despite the Greek dominance) making that point as forcefully as she could.
The most significant social welfare reforms of the 1980s and 1990s almost all had the notion of transitional protection arrangements in place for existing claimants.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/04312dc0-2729-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz3flPmwY5I
But hey, what do I know about Scottish politics?
Part of the reason for that was overcrowding - prisons were desperate to manage the numbers and that often involved moving prisoners around to maximise use of space. But it was clear that many prisons were only paying lip-service to training and skills.
I think it'd be useful to give prisoners the vote, purely to give some MPs a direct personal interest in sorting the issue out. At present, most MPs never visit a prison and take no interest in what they're like. This isn't about liberal or harsh treatment, so much as about effectiveness.
The Greek Referendum is not saying that the German tax payers have to spend a single cent more. It is asking if the Greek voters accepted the required austerity measures, and that is all. When they said no, German was quite at liberty so say that it was unfortunate but they were not prepared to pay and more and Greece was out the Euro.
Both sides are as bad as each other. Greece wants to be in the Euro without the financial discipline it required. Germany (and France) want Balkan states with dubious financial records in the EU, but doesn't want to foot the bill. Both the Greek and German leaders want Greece to leave the Euro, neither of them want it to look like it was at their instigation. Shameful all around. Greece's financies were consipicuously flawed when they applied for membership, people said so at the time, but the EU was so desparate to bring in new members they decided to turn a huge blind eye to obvious failings, and now don't want to pay for their foolishness.
The worst part of all of this is that Greece will likely need another bailout in 12 months, and Golden Dawn could be leading in the polls by then. You think Germany of all countries would know the dangers of forcing a harsh deflationary depression on a country.
An angry, bitter and resentful Greece inside the EU is something that will take careful managing - I suppose some in the EZ were worried the Greeks would run out of the EU and perhaps NATO as well and head for the fond embrace of Putin.
One might hope that with a reputation of making changes for the better against institutional opposition and an interest in education, Michael Gove might be the minister to fix the problems in the prison system.
@BBCNewsnight: Harman's support for welfare cuts splits Labour by @AllegraStratton http://t.co/OU3DkJizQ8
Always supposing it is politically possible in Greece.
"History tells us humiliating nations rarely ends well for all concerned. Yes, the Greeks have made mistakes but they were far from being the only culpable party in all this. "
Yep. By spontaneous free association the following words sprand into my mind: "WW1, reparations, inflation, facism, WW2."
The culture of corruption in Greece like many similar countries runs from top to bottom. Even assuming that the required laws can be changed, which is very dubious, it wont make a jot of difference because all the parties that might be involved in enforcing it benefit from the current system, and will be dragging their heels as hard as they can. Countries like Italy changed their laws years ago, and yet the amount of income tax most people pay is settled over a nice bottle of wine with their tax official, and bears no real resemblance to the actual amount due. The tax collector has no incentive to change the system, he likes his bottle of wine and the envelope of euros in his back pocket. The tax collectors boss has no incentive to check up on the tax collector because he enjoys a healthy cut from all of those envelopes, and proportion of which he and his peers pass on to their boss. That sort of culture takes decades to change, no a few laws passed in the teeth of public opposition by a discredited government. We will be back here in less than six months.
None of this pertains in Greece. Imposing a harsh settlement on people who don't vote from the outside seems the worst possible way to carry out reforms, however necessary they may be. You can't beat people into being good.
Does this deal even solve Greece's problems? It still has enormous debts which it can't ever pay. So what - really - has been achieved?
If indeed there was to be a box set of all channels coverage that night then that might just be her Xmas present sorted too.
Anyone able to direct me to such a source of this no doubt popular compilation?
Partly because I've taken a step back from frontline politics and partly because it's nearly 5 years to the next GE, I'm feeling less interested in the Con-Lab battle and more in discussing policies that will work. Even as an MP it was obvious that maybe 70% of issues were just difficult and any imaginative politician might come up with the best approach, rather than susceptible to a "my party's right, the others suck" approach. If Gove can achieve some radical improvements, good for him.
But let's look at who is saying this:-
1. Italy: Corruption is a way of life in Italy from top to bottom. Virtually every government from the end of WW2 onwards was corrupt and this has continued to this day. In Italy's case, that corruption extended to helping the Mafia or turning a blind eye to it - see Andreotti. The consequences of such corruption have extended far beyond Italy's borders. No-one sane would describe any of Italy's governments as competent.
2. France: a country described as being like Italy but without Italy's magistrates. A number of very senior politicians, including Presidents have been accused or charged with corruption. Not quite as full of clean hands as some might like to make out.
3. Spain: it too has had significant issues with corruption in public life, including the Socialist party which governed it for many years and, I gather, the parties of the right.
4. Belgium: oh dear! Weren't there issues with defence contracts, Augusta and politicians accepting envelopes full of cash?
5. Germany: probably not corrupt but not a country with a glorious history of paying all its debts either.
"Beams" and "motes" come to mind when listening the political morality tale coming out of Brussels this morning.
I don't see what is so hard about this, the Greeks expressed a democratic will not to comply with the bail out terms, so end the bail outs and let them go it alone. There is no obligation either expressed on implied for any other country to do anything, except that the EU powers are desperate for no one to leave so the fudging started.
Ex-UKIP MEP Ashley Mote jailed for five years after claiming almost £500k in fraudulent European Parliament expenses
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33508850
Edit: he was a UKIP MEP some years back.
Several millions were displaced from their homes in Eastern Europe. It's well worth watching - available for 6 days http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05x30lb/1945-the-savage-peace
At that point if the other EU governments had gone over the heads of the Greek government and tried to interpret the will of Greece themselves, most of the people who are currently complaining about what they did would instead be complaining that they'd undemocratically refused to deal with the democratically elected Greek government.
The same might equally be said about the Germans and Latvians and Finns. In a common currency area that works there need to be fiscal transfers.
Having told the Greeks that a "no" in the referendum meant they were out of the euro, they should have stuck to it. Instead of which they've cobbled together yet another fudge which will likely work no better than any of the other fudges over the years.
Those who cite the success of Marshall aid often neglect to mention that the Soviet Union extracted an approximately equivalent capital sum from Eastern Europe as the Americans put in the immediate aftermath of 1945. East Germany was not treated with the same forgiveness as the West. Who is to say it say the Soviets' approach was an injustice?
On a similar note, I see Harriet Harman and Liz Kendall giving qualified support to the tax credit reform, well done to them. I wonder if Kendall could work well with Cameron on the above "needs doing" list? They are both pragmatic centrists who don't seem too worried about offending those on the extreme of their own party in order to do what is best for the country.
If you sow hatred, you reap it for years after. The Germans learnt that in 1945.
A lesson worth all of us learning.
I genuinely believe that the standard of ministers in this government is well above average but there are always exceptions.
Is ground game dead?
In the wake of our shock defeat, the temptation is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But don't write off ground game, warns Jon Ashworth MP.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/ground-game-dead
Horrible, horrible man.
Fraud is serious not because of the loss of money, bad as that is but because it corrodes and destroys trust. And without trust how can you have banking, how can you have good administration, how can you have a worthwhile political system?
A good article by John Harris:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/13/labour-party-2020-movement
Tomorrow: Aditya Chakrabortty on “How can Britain pay its way in the world?” could be interesting. Some of the comments are most amusing:
"Labour should rename itself to reflect the fact it represents, in order
- the upper class left elite who require captive votes to pursue their own deeply selfish and anti-labiur (small l) agenda.
- the state bureaucracy that run the country for the first
- the migrants imported by the first in mass numbers to divide and fragment the working class and provide captive votes more reliably than the former (if they ever become less dependent they will of course be turned on at that point, see Catholics, Jews, women who don't conform, and of course before all, the indigenous working class)
- those on benefits, there to be bought and paid for in service to more votes; any measure that may help these people to self sufficiency is the first thing that must be opposed
Hard to think of a short title that sums all this up. I favour 'the Progressive party' for all the hubris and appealing history it encapsulates. But in a party very largely aimed at media hipsters I'm sure someone from the party ranks can do better."
"Hmmm let me see.
The working class voter who cares about jobs, wages
OR
the PPE grad, cheese and wine party knobhead of the chatterati caring more about climate change and Rwandan lesbian poets?
What a choice."
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
But importantly: Corruption is largely an internal affair, if you can pay your international bills, but is your creditors business if you cannot.
So if you are to have a single currency you must work towards economic cohesion. That will involve the sort of infrastructure investment the EU has poured into eastern Europe but it also requires those countries to adopt policies that actually work, to keep borrowing under control and to ensure that the State does not eat so much of the cake that the private sector cannot remain competitive.
The problem with the EZ has not been that it has been overly dominant but that it has been far too weak and failed to enforce its own rules. This is partly because the public were lied to about the implications of a single currency. It is, in truth, possibly the single largest loss of sovereignty short of military occupation. That truth has been exposed by the travesty that is Greece and I think it may well take years for the implications of that to work their way through.
A Greek minister on R4 this morning commented that the idea of ever closer union when Member States got treated like this was fantastical. I think Cameron should be banned from playing the lottery. It would not be fair on the rest of us.
Turning to the Guardian piece, a further point I would make is that most constituencies were awash with SNP candidates. In my constituency, Stirling, we had 8 local candidates to choose from - 4 with political backgrounds, 3 local business owners and an academic. The seat was won by the council leader of the SNP.
Maybe. In this case, however, the largely innocent do seem to have paid for the crimes of the guilty.
All of a sudden the 'it will be kicked down the road' and 'fudge' brigade and now saying the EU are after a pound of flesh.
Come on people - make your mind up.
I find that admission somewhat depressing. Surely every MP who represents their constituents should focus on 'what can work' and not unrealistic party ideology. Yes, good ideas can be in advance of their time, but surely all MPs should think beyond the 5 years and preferably at 15-20 years as decisions made now can take that long to show their true effect.
Quite frankly it amazes me that of the four Lab leader candidates, only one is looking at events and future events and being practical instead of following one form or other of party line and ideology. We need desperately deep and wide-ranging thinkers in HoP and whose thinking is adaptable to both events and future scenarios. Even Harriet has realised that Labour was preaching to the electorate a sermon that was no longer relevant to the electorate - that is why the profile of the new Labour intake is so depressing.
Note I am not defending the EU/Eurozone - it just hoped for the best during this time and did nothing meaningful.
Two world wars BTW left Germany in ruins. Even at this distance I cannot work up much sympathy for that. They brought it on themselves.
Mr. Eagles, why do you loathe Grayling so?
Oh for god's sake Paul Mason, I'm as worried at the effects of this national humilation to Greece as anyone, but given the tone of the piece I don't think you were including the Greek government in the 'rulers of Europe' flouting of a 61% referendum result. The EU has been callous, possibly self defeating, but they didn't flout any result - it wasn't possible for them to do so as they were not bound by it in the first place. Indeed so. Didn't some German divisions leave their posts in the East so they could surrender to the Western forces, which in a personal sense was probably a wise move?
They are wrong. The Euro will survive, it will continue to have substantial international influence well beyond the EU, it will continue to develop as an alternative to the dollar and it will continue to spread as smaller countries continue to join it.
Since this is so contrary to the world view of the europhobics they rant with a slightly weird combination of anti German rhetoric (even in support of a government that would make Ed look like Thatcher) and accusations of fudge, totally ignoring the very clear determination of the members of the EZ to stay together, whatever the cost.
There are, in fairness, also some on the left who hate the idea that governments can spend without consequence has once again been demonstrated to be lunatic. But they are a relatively small minority. Disordered though their thinking is, at least they care tuppance about the consequences for the people of Greece.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 2m2 minutes ago
Andy Burnham seeking to enthuse the audience, including the man behind, in the BBC2 LAB leadership debate.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJyqC9tWwAAvNUA.png
He did things that wouldn't rehabilitate prisoners and increased the likelihood of prisoner suicides.
He went for shallow things that the Daily Mail would approve of but would not be helpful to society.