“As a consequence of you being here [Heathrow North Runway], you are causing severe disruption and it will be in the millions of pounds because it will take us a while to remove you.
“The cost will be in the couple of millions. The airport will attempt to make a civil recovery.”
Perhaps the Spanish and Arab owners of Heathrow can compensate the residents of West London whilst they are at it since they lobbied to increase flights and earlier take off and landing times.
The regulators look at return on invested capital (which would show up in the balance sheet and cashflow) rather than profit margins. Profit margins only show the operating costs, not the investment required to build the infrastructure
Most important point of all, which I had not seen - Merkel has ruled out debt relief. That is NOT part of the package.
Therefore, it is not actually going to make the slightest difference and even if over the next few weeks, it is voted through, it will NOT improve the situation. That's probably all the incentive that Syriza will need to reject it. The mere fact that they will be defying political and economic reality by doing so is unlikely to factor in their calculations - after all, when has it stopped them in the past?
Given, reading that this could all take weeks to sort out - with a political fallout in Greece to come - I can see the deal pretty much falling through. For all this talk of a 'deal', it appears they still quite far away from one.
Boris, saying as usual in 2,000 words what could be said in 200
What will the Greeks do? My heart says they should tell Schäuble to get stuffed. Five years ago, I said they should go for freedom, and I think the same today. What have they gained, by staving off the inevitable? More unemployment, more misery, more poverty. What have they got to lose? Nothing but their chains – the servitude that goes with a cruel monetary version of the Ottoman empire.
Now is the time to rediscover the spirit of Marathon, to fight for the things that made Greece great, to burst the shackles of the Great King of Brussels. Now is the time for what they used to call arete – the full expression of their independent moral virtue.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
What I said does not bear that interpretation at all. My point is the economic fundamentals still apply and may be made worse by this deal. Forget the morality tale about evil leftists, especially as there have been right-wing governments in Greece too, and erect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
If there has been a more ridiculous and idiotic exercise than the Greek referendum in the last 50 years it doesn't immediately come to mind.
I think our country might give them a run for their money in a couple of years....the number of 'unacceptable' 'material events' just keep piling up.....
On topic - out of interest, where have polls done well?
There are so many lessons for Scotland in what is happening to Greece but very few in our country seem to want to listen at the moment.
What I would say re the polls is that things with low turnout and specialised electorates like party memberships have always been tricky but between 1992 and 2015 the polls had got the national results broadly right. What we are now seeing is that it is as hard to get an accurate sample for these national elections as it is for the more specialised ones. Unless the pollsters can overcome that demand for their product is going to end.
Scotland has around half the population of Greece.....
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
What I said does not bear that interpretation at all. My point is the economic fundamentals still apply and may be made worse by this deal. Forget the morality tale about evil leftists, especially as there have been right-wing governments in Greece too, and erect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
We could even add a tribute to form the basis for his later epitaph. How about, 'The man who put egomania above economists - thank God!'
Both sides in this dispute place ideology above economic rationality.
Syriza are basically a Student Union placed in charge of a country. They would be considered laughably inept, if the consequences of their incompetence weren't so serious.
The leaders of the EZ on the other hand, believe that no level of suffering is too great to achieve European political integration. Indeed, falling GDP and high unemployment are nothing more than a political virility test.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
What I said does not bear that interpretation at all. My point is the economic fundamentals still apply and may be made worse by this deal. Forget the morality tale about evil leftists, especially as there have been right-wing governments in Greece too, and erect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
The economic fundamentals applied to Greece blowing its previous loans. Shooting yourself in the foot tends to leave you crippled. Its hard to see how the situation could be made worse when Greece has run out of money and needs vast loans to survive.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
What I said does not bear that interpretation at all. My point is the economic fundamentals still apply and may be made worse by this deal. Forget the morality tale about evil leftists, especially as there have been right-wing governments in Greece too, and erect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
This deal is clearly not about what is best for Greece or the Greek people. The idea that the EU is in any way about solidarity has died totally, as has the strange notion expressed by many right-wing Eurosceptics that the EU is some kind of leftie plot.
[E]rect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
Never forget that Brown put his name to the following reasoned amendment to the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993:
[That this House] .... deplores the fact that the opt-out provisions of the Treaty on the approach to Monetary Union would mean that neither the European Monetary Institute nor the proposed European Central Bank are likely to be located in Britain [HC Deb 20-21 May 1992].
Brown kept us out of the Euro for wholly political, not economic reasons.
Does anybody seriously believe that we're not going to be back to crisis talks again within 6 months?
I know the EU and Eurozone are not the same thing, but this on-going clusterf*ck is making even someone relatively Pro EU like myself consider that 'Brexit' might not be the worst thing in the world.
[E]rect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
Never forget that Brown put his name to the following reasoned amendment to the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993:
[That this House] .... deplores the fact that the opt-out provisions of the Treaty on the approach to Monetary Union would mean that neither the European Monetary Institute nor the proposed European Central Bank are likely to be located in Britain [HC Deb 20-21 May 1992].
Brown kept us out of the Euro for wholly political, not economic reasons.
Better to do the right thing for the wrong reasons than the reverse.
[E]rect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
Never forget that Brown put his name to the following reasoned amendment to the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993:
[That this House] .... deplores the fact that the opt-out provisions of the Treaty on the approach to Monetary Union would mean that neither the European Monetary Institute nor the proposed European Central Bank are likely to be located in Britain [HC Deb 20-21 May 1992].
Brown kept us out of the Euro for wholly political, not economic reasons.
Thank you for that. I had no idea that Brown once supported the Euro. That seems to eliminate the primary defining achievement of his otherwise poor record.
@rosschawkins: As we stand Harman still planning to make case for accepting child tax credit change at Labour MPs' meeting tonight
@rosschawkins: Team Harman saying she's happy for new leader to reverse her stance on tax credits. One l/ship contender src says: that's nice of her
Remember it was Harriet who got sacked for i think one of Blairs first rebellions: "The way that social security is delivered at the moment is resented by the public who pay for it, the clients who use it, and the staff who run it. For many people, the current system is fragmented, reactive, inflexible and confusing." 1998
Does anybody seriously believe that we're not going to be back to crisis talks again within 6 months?
I know the EU and Eurozone are not the same thing, but this on-going clusterf*ck is making even someone relatively Pro EU like myself consider that 'Brexit' might not be the worst thing in the world.
Probably less than 6 months. Hey, by the end of this week we could be back to square one....
[E]rect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
Never forget that Brown put his name to the following reasoned amendment to the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993:
[That this House] .... deplores the fact that the opt-out provisions of the Treaty on the approach to Monetary Union would mean that neither the European Monetary Institute nor the proposed European Central Bank are likely to be located in Britain [HC Deb 20-21 May 1992].
Brown kept us out of the Euro for wholly political, not economic reasons.
If Blair had wanted to stay out of the Euro.......
I'm surprised that Mr Tsipras has apparently capitulated. It may well be the best outcome available for Greece but it certainly isn't for him.
Anyone know enough about Greek politics to comment? I mean, he only barely had a majority when he was staying in the Euro, so wouldn't he have been out on his ear if he'd left? Whereas now his potential majority is everyone except Golden Dawn and 1/3 of Syriza.
I think in the short term Tsipras has done enough to get national opinion rallying behind him - Greece is very clearly seen as having been put under almost unbearable pressure (I supported the #thisisacoup Twitterstorm last night), and it's eclipsed the question of how they got to this stage. There will certainly be Syriza defections and he risks in the medium term being seen as a Ramsay MacDonald figure, but MacDonald was a popular figure at first.
The deal is typical of the EU in that it was always likely to arrive in the end but everyone needed to show they'd fought to the last minute. I think the suggestions that it's inadequate, still depends on more talks, etc., misunderstand the dynamics - everyone involved has a stake in making it work, and it will, after a fashion.
Incidientally, the journos grumbling about the all-might session are pathetic. A decision affecting the economic survival of a country and the economic affairs of an entire confident, and they have to spend some time dozing while they wait for the resulty? Diddums.
Michael Mansfield QC, one of Britain's most prominent barristers, has reportedly been arrested over an allegation of domestic assault after an incident at a party.
The 73-year-old, who is said to have recently separated from his second wife, spent much of Sunday in police custody being questioned over the alleged attack, according to the Daily Mail.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
No, austerity destroyed the Greek economy. That has been in place for a number of years, not just for the last few months. The decision to allow Greece to join the Euro in the first place was enabled by that bastion of left wing thinking Goldman Sachs and approved by a variety of governments of all political colours, as well as a coterie of highly-paid bankers. Taking pleasure in the misery of millions out of some ridiculous notion this is all about incompetent lefties is not a great look.
You blame the adoption of austerity like there was any remotely viable Plan B. Greece should never have been in the Euro. Goldman Sachs and the Bundesbank and nameless, faceless Eurocrats shoulder much of the blame for allowing in Greece - and several others - when they didn't meet the criteria. But Greece lobbied to be in, and when it was in, had a reality check. That a group of naive, left-wing academics didn't heed reality was their undoing.
Today, as Greece grasps its ankles and assumes the position - that is down to choices the most recent left-wing Govt. has made. The left owns this mess.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
What I said does not bear that interpretation at all. My point is the economic fundamentals still apply and may be made worse by this deal. Forget the morality tale about evil leftists, especially as there have been right-wing governments in Greece too, and erect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
This deal is clearly not about what is best for Greece or the Greek people. The idea that the EU is in any way about solidarity has died totally, as has the strange notion expressed by many right-wing Eurosceptics that the EU is some kind of leftie plot.
Right-wing Eurosceptics do not believe the EU is some kind of leftie plot. They just believe lefties in the UK support the EU because it inflicts a more left-wing political settlement on the UK than our own democracy would vote for. The main criticisms from right-wing Eurosceptics of the EU itself is that it is undemocratic, inept and bad for prosperity. Those criticisms are standing up fairly well over the last few days. I'm closer to voting "Out" than I've ever been, but I still am quietly confident that David Cameron will defy expectations again and shield us from the worst of the EU.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
No, austerity destroyed the Greek economy. That has been in place for a number of years, not just for the last few months. The decision to allow Greece to join the Euro in the first place was enabled by that bastion of left wing thinking Goldman Sachs and approved by a variety of governments of all political colours, as well as a coterie of highly-paid bankers. Taking pleasure in the misery of millions out of some ridiculous notion this is all about incompetent lefties is not a great look.
You blame the adoption of austerity like there was any remotely viable Plan B. Greece should never have been in the Euro. Goldman Sachs and the Bundesbank and nameless, faceless Eurocrats shoulder much of the blame for allowing in Greece - and several others - when they didn't meet the criteria. But Greece lobbied to be in, and when it was in, had a reality check. That a group of naive, left-wing academics didn't heed reality was their undoing.
Today, as Greece grasps its ankles and assumes the position - that is down to choices the most recent left-wing Govt. has made. The left owns this mess.
No, it doesn't - as you have so clearly shown. But I can see why it thrills you to say otherwise.
"Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras told reporters that Greece had fought a "tough battle", won debt restructuring, and sent a message of dignity to all of Europe." ((BBC)
So does he believe that dignity is better than poverty for his people? In the style of many Central American countries, he should have considered a Grexit, brought back the drachma linked at a low rate to a basket of currencies and and not messed up Greece's hugely important summer tourist trade and so kept his people relatively happy. Of course all tourist payments would have to be made in a hard currency but this would have paid for Greek essential imports. Not an ideal solution, but would have allowed the Greeks to have a reasonably foreseeable future on which they could build - now?
I was basically an Inner after Concessions sort - then increasingly becoming a BOOer given the general incompetence of Eurocrats. The Greek situation doesn't change my view as I think we're too big for the EU, and it'd never happen to us anyway.
Germany has its mitts all over it and wants it - we don't. So I'm going more into the BOO camp regardless of concessions.
If there has been a more ridiculous and idiotic exercise than the Greek referendum in the last 50 years it doesn't immediately come to mind.
I think our country might give them a run for their money in a couple of years....the number of 'unacceptable' 'material events' just keep piling up.....
On topic - out of interest, where have polls done well?
There are so many lessons for Scotland in what is happening to Greece but very few in our country seem to want to listen at the moment.
What I would say re the polls is that things with low turnout and specialised electorates like party memberships have always been tricky but between 1992 and 2015 the polls had got the national results broadly right. What we are now seeing is that it is as hard to get an accurate sample for these national elections as it is for the more specialised ones. Unless the pollsters can overcome that demand for their product is going to end.
Bollocks David, the only thing Scotland needs take out of this , and we already know it , is not to borrow wholesale like the UK or Greece and live within your means or at least with minimum debt. It does not take a rocket scientist to realise that and we certainly don't need lecturing by the nasty party.
What we should learn from this is that the idea that Scotland could continue to use the £ without a currency union with rUK was either blatant lying or gross incompetence. Furthermore we should learn that even if rUk was minded to have a currency union with Scotland the price for that is ultimately as little independence as we have at the moment, arguably less, with others setting the rules for spending, interest rates, borrowing and economic policy.
If Scotland wants genuine independence it needs to have its own currency, its own central bank and, as you rightly say, learn to live within its own means. But I have little doubt that if we go through a second referendum the same lies will be told all over again.
I agree with all of that.
If Scotland wants independence, then planning for a new currency, central bank and reserve needs to start now, so that a soft launch could happen. What cannot be allowed to happen is the fantasy sold last time.
[E]rect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
Never forget that Brown put his name to the following reasoned amendment to the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993:
[That this House] .... deplores the fact that the opt-out provisions of the Treaty on the approach to Monetary Union would mean that neither the European Monetary Institute nor the proposed European Central Bank are likely to be located in Britain [HC Deb 20-21 May 1992].
Brown kept us out of the Euro for wholly political, not economic reasons.
And never forget that Mrs Thatcher attacked Jim Callaghan for keeping us out of the snake. What's your point? In the instance you reference, Labour was trying -- and almost succeeded, with the aid of Conservative eurosceptics -- to bring down the Major government.
I was basically an Inner after Concessions sort - then increasingly becoming a BOOer given the general incompetence of Eurocrats. The Greek situation doesn't change my view as I think we're too big for the EU, and it'd never happen to us anyway.
Germany has its mitts all over it and wants it - we don't. So I'm going more into the BOO camp regardless of concessions.
Just a thought, those on here that favour IN, have events in Greece altered your views in any way?
Thank you, irrespective of any sympathy we have for the Greeks, this scenario is a nightmare for Cameron. The concession nonsense was always just that, I'm curious how many who favoured IN are seeing things in a different light. Not sure that will affect the vote, entrenched positions are difficult to change, but floaters may begin to see the light.
@rosschawkins: As we stand Harman still planning to make case for accepting child tax credit change at Labour MPs' meeting tonight
@rosschawkins: Team Harman saying she's happy for new leader to reverse her stance on tax credits. One l/ship contender src says: that's nice of her
Remember it was Harriet who got sacked for i think one of Blairs first rebellions: "The way that social security is delivered at the moment is resented by the public who pay for it, the clients who use it, and the staff who run it. For many people, the current system is fragmented, reactive, inflexible and confusing." 1998
And over the next 12 years the government of which she was a Cabinet minister did nothing except make the situation worse for all three groups she identified.
Those criticisms are standing up fairly well over the last few days. I'm closer to voting "Out" than I've ever been, but I still am quietly confident that David Cameron will defy expectations again and shield us from the worst of the EU.
Fundamental reform to the nature of the European Union can only be achieved by treaty change under the ordinary revision procedure (TEU, art 48(1)), and Cameron will not get that, as he seems now to have accepted. There is only one choice on the table: every closer union or a greater measure of self-government. It is idle to pretend otherwise.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
What really benefits/harms a political party is the perception of being competent/incompetent. Right now, the Tories are seen as competent, and Labour are seen as incompetent.
Being seen as nice/nasty is almost irrelevant by comparison. It is always better for a political party to be respected than to be liked.
"Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras told reporters that Greece had fought a "tough battle", won debt restructuring, and sent a message of dignity to all of Europe." ((BBC)
So does he believe that dignity is better than poverty for his people? In the style of many Central American countries, he should have considered a Grexit, brought back the drachma linked at a low rate to a basket of currencies and and not messed up Greece's hugely important summer tourist trade and so kept his people relatively happy. Of course all tourist payments would have to be made in a hard currency but this would have paid for Greek essential imports. Not an ideal solution, but would have allowed the Greeks to have a reasonably foreseeable future on which they could build - now?
Quite. There are millions of European (and other) people looking forward to a summer holiday in Greece who are being put off by all the recent troubles. If Greece could sort itself out for even 3 months it will allow these huge annual imports of hard currency, the absence of which will only make everything worse for the Greeks further down the line.
I'm surprised that Mr Tsipras has apparently capitulated. It may well be the best outcome available for Greece but it certainly isn't for him.
Anyone know enough about Greek politics to comment? I mean, he only barely had a majority when he was staying in the Euro, so wouldn't he have been out on his ear if he'd left? Whereas now his potential majority is everyone except Golden Dawn and 1/3 of Syriza.
I think in the short term Tsipras has done enough to get national opinion rallying behind him - Greece is very clearly seen as having been put under almost unbearable pressure (I supported the #thisisacoup Twitterstorm last night), and it's eclipsed the question of how they got to this stage. There will certainly be Syriza defections and he risks in the medium term being seen as a Ramsay MacDonald figure, but MacDonald was a popular figure at first.
The deal is typical of the EU in that it was always likely to arrive in the end but everyone needed to show they'd fought to the last minute. I think the suggestions that it's inadequate, still depends on more talks, etc., misunderstand the dynamics - everyone involved has a stake in making it work, and it will, after a fashion.
Incidientally, the journos grumbling about the all-might session are pathetic. A decision affecting the economic survival of a country and the economic affairs of an entire confident, and they have to spend some time dozing while they wait for the resulty? Diddums.
I wonder though where this leaves the views of savers in Spain, Portugal etc.? When the chips were down the central ECB bank, the bank of 'last resort', was not prepared to be that and continue supplying liquidity to Greek banks. It's a technicality but a major one imho. The Euro is not a currency for people who deposit in banks if this is how it is run.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
TBF their government told them that the "no" option would mean the banks reopening and staying in the Euro. It's not obvious that they'd have made the same choice if they'd been told the truth.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Out of interest what do you think the process should be here? The voters of Greece think Germany should give Greece more money without reform, but the voters of Germany think they shouldn't. Do the government of Germany have to honour the verdict of the voters of Greece because they had a referendum, and whoever does that wins? What if the voters of Germany had held a referendum as well, and voted against giving the Greeks more money? Toss a coin to break the tie?
And never forget that Mrs Thatcher attacked Jim Callaghan for keeping us out of the snake. What's your point? In the instance you reference, Labour was trying -- and almost succeeded, with the aid of Conservative eurosceptics -- to bring down the Major government.
In fact, all the Eurosceptic opponents of the Bill on the right of the Conservative Party voted against that amendment. The government won the vote with a majority of 99. The Labour Party were trying to have it both ways to unite the party: opposing the Bill while advocating a more integrationist approach.
This so terrified Mr Tsipras that he has since, in the Eurogroup meeting and an all-night meeting of eurozone government heads - which at the time of writing is still continuing - allowed himself into negotiations that, if successful, would rob Greece of all meaningful economic sovereignty.
Tax, spending, privatisations and the structure of industries - the stuff that shapes lives - would be determined by emergency legislation rushed through the Greek parliament by Wednesday, with no opportunity for serious debate.
Only if an entire parliament demonstrably surrenders by the middle of this week would the rest of the eurozone start talks on possibly extending the additional €86bn of finance Greece needs to prevent future default and the total collapse of its banking system. And for what it's worth, the presumption among other eurozone leaders that Mr Tsipras is willing and able to deliver the abject obeisance of Athens lawmakers may turn out to be naive.
There would in effect be a takeover, for years, of Greece by Berlin, Brussels and the IMF in Washington.
Monitors, from the IMF, would be permanently stationed in Athens, to prevent backsliding by the administration. Privatisation proceeds would be put into some kind of escrow account, possibly in Luxembourg. Athens would be deprived of even a figleaf of national economic autonomy.
I was basically an Inner after Concessions sort - then increasingly becoming a BOOer given the general incompetence of Eurocrats. The Greek situation doesn't change my view as I think we're too big for the EU, and it'd never happen to us anyway.
Germany has its mitts all over it and wants it - we don't. So I'm going more into the BOO camp regardless of concessions.
Just a thought, those on here that favour IN, have events in Greece altered your views in any way?
Thank you, irrespective of any sympathy we have for the Greeks, this scenario is a nightmare for Cameron. The concession nonsense was always just that, I'm curious how many who favoured IN are seeing things in a different light. Not sure that will affect the vote, entrenched positions are difficult to change, but floaters may begin to see the light.
Plato's comment and your reply show little grasp of reality. We are not in the Euro and are a million miles from ever being in. There is for us effectively no difference to being in or out of the EU. Out of it, we will still be applying EU directives still paying to EU regional funds and still part of the single market and movement of Labour. It is crass (yes crass Miss Plato) to think that rejecting terms renegotiated from within and from a position of leverage - no matter how good for us - is clever, only to be faced with renegotiating them all again from without and no leverage in order to access the single market.
Far from being a nightmare for Cameron it vividly highlights the need for the reforms he wants and clearly emphasises the need for us to negotiate a clear position in respect of the inevitable ever closer union of the Eurozone. The EU will be more likely to face these reforms now.
The issue is the ever closer union of the Eurozone members and how we relate to it. Do we orbit it from the EEA or from still within the EU? There will be very little difference in reality - our financial institutions and our economy will still have a big rival on our doorstep.
The yougov first round figures for members, David Miliband 7% ahead, were actually quite close to the final round, David Miliband 8% ahead. They got the actual first round figures and preferences a bit off though
TBF their government told them that the "no" option would mean the banks reopening and staying in the Euro. It's not obvious that they'd have made the same choice if they'd been told the truth.
So if Scotland had voted "yes" after being told there would be a currency union with the UK, it would be reasonable to keep them in the union because 'it's not obvious' they would have voted the same way had they been told the truth? Give me a break. All sorts of untruths are told throughout election campaigns and it's up for the other side to point them out. It's not a reason to ignore democracy.
Out of interest what do you think the process should be here? The voters of Greece think Germany should give Greece more money without reform, but the voters of Germany think they shouldn't. Do the government of Germany have to honour the verdict of the voters of Greece because they had a referendum, and whoever does that wins? What if the voters of Germany had held a referendum as well, and voted against giving the Greeks more money? Toss a coin to break the tie?
I mean the whole dynamic shows what a catastrophic economic system the Eurozone is. The running of the economy is being decided by an anarchic brinkmanship with no central authority is a complete farce. But given we are where we are, the right process is to put the new deal to the Greek people, because it is simply appalling to overturn their directly stated view without consulting them again. If Germany wants to do the same, than so be it.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Utter garbage. The EU is in no way bound by a Greek referendum. That is Tsipras's bag - he is the one who has betrayed his voters. The Greek vote was an internal matter - why on earth should the peoples of Latvia, Finland, Spain, Holland or anywhere else be required to give more money to the Greeks because they voted for it. I am not a fan of the EU but what you write is quite nonsensical and does the anti-EU cause no favours.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
In the end, I suspect there will be another European war... Because the democratic deficit is not sustainable in the long term (especially as the long term trend across the world is actually away from elites and towards devolving powers down to the people)
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Utter garbage. The EU is in no way bound by a Greek referendum. That is Tsipras's bag - he is the one who has betrayed his voters. The Greek vote was an internal matter - why on earth should the peoples of Latvia, Finland, Spain, Holland or anywhere else be required to give more money to the Greeks because they voted for it. I am not a fan of the EU but what you write is quite nonsensical and does the anti-EU cause no favours.
There is no need to be so rude, especially when you are insulting me for a position I do not even hold.
This so terrified Mr Tsipras that he has since, in the Eurogroup meeting and an all-night meeting of eurozone government heads - which at the time of writing is still continuing - allowed himself into negotiations that, if successful, would rob Greece of all meaningful economic sovereignty.
Tax, spending, privatisations and the structure of industries - the stuff that shapes lives - would be determined by emergency legislation rushed through the Greek parliament by Wednesday, with no opportunity for serious debate.
Only if an entire parliament demonstrably surrenders by the middle of this week would the rest of the eurozone start talks on possibly extending the additional €86bn of finance Greece needs to prevent future default and the total collapse of its banking system. And for what it's worth, the presumption among other eurozone leaders that Mr Tsipras is willing and able to deliver the abject obeisance of Athens lawmakers may turn out to be naive.
There would in effect be a takeover, for years, of Greece by Berlin, Brussels and the IMF in Washington.
Monitors, from the IMF, would be permanently stationed in Athens, to prevent backsliding by the administration. Privatisation proceeds would be put into some kind of escrow account, possibly in Luxembourg. Athens would be deprived of even a figleaf of national economic autonomy.
Tsipras: "I promise you that as hard as we fought here, we will now fight at home, to finish the oligarchy which brought us to this state."
Maybe what he wanted all along was to co-opt the EU in forcing through a domestic revolution.
Oh come on. This is getting silly. Can't you recognise a feeble excuse when you see one? Just what kind of domestic revolution are they going to get from within the rules of the EU and Eurozone - and the IMF? If he had said 'corruption' instead of 'oligarchy' then he might have been believable. But removal of these Greek Practices is not what too many Greeks want to hear.
There seems increasingly little sanity left on PBdotcom
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Utter garbage. The EU is in no way bound by a Greek referendum. That is Tsipras's bag - he is the one who has betrayed his voters. The Greek vote was an internal matter - why on earth should the peoples of Latvia, Finland, Spain, Holland or anywhere else be required to give more money to the Greeks because they voted for it. I am not a fan of the EU but what you write is quite nonsensical and does the anti-EU cause no favours.
There is no need to be so rude, especially when you are insulting me for a position I do not even hold.
My apologies - but so many talk about the referendum as if 'it must be obeyed' because the Greeks voted for it. Life doesn't work that way.
Tsipras: "I promise you that as hard as we fought here, we will now fight at home, to finish the oligarchy which brought us to this state."
Maybe what he wanted all along was to co-opt the EU in forcing through a domestic revolution.
Don't hard leftists who want to replace oligarchies just end up putting in place new oligarchies? In any case, he's just flapping his mouth at this point, it's clear he hasn't got a clue what he's doing, even among the generally clueless Euro elites (who are slightly more clueless than we the public, because of their ideological blinkers)
I was basically an Inner after Concessions sort - then increasingly becoming a BOOer given the general incompetence of Eurocrats. The Greek situation doesn't change my view as I think we're too big for the EU, and it'd never happen to us anyway.
Germany has its mitts all over it and wants it - we don't. So I'm going more into the BOO camp regardless of concessions.
Just a thought, those on here that favour IN, have events in Greece altered your views in any way?
Thank you, irrespective of any sympathy we have for the Greeks, this scenario is a nightmare for Cameron. The concession nonsense was always just that, I'm curious how many who favoured IN are seeing things in a different light. Not sure that will affect the vote, entrenched positions are difficult to change, but floaters may begin to see the light.
Plato's comment and your reply show little grasp of reality. We are not in the Euro and are a million miles from ever being in. There is for us effectively no difference to being in or out of the EU. Out of it, we will still be applying EU directives still paying to EU regional funds and still part of the single market and movement of Labour. It is crass (yes crass Miss Plato) to think that rejecting terms renegotiated from within and from a position of leverage - no matter how good for us - is clever, only to be faced with renegotiating them all again from without and no leverage in order to access the single market.
Far from being a nightmare for Cameron it vividly highlights the need for the reforms he wants and clearly emphasises the need for us to negotiate a clear position in respect of the inevitable ever closer union of the Eurozone. The EU will be more likely to face these reforms now.
The issue is the ever closer union of the Eurozone members and how we relate to it. Do we orbit it from the EEA or from still within the EU? There will be very little difference in reality - our financial institutions and our economy will still have a big rival on our doorstep.
See what I mean about entrenched positions? I was interested to hear what undecided thought, not those who would stay IN regardless. And heaven knows why you mentioned the Euro, this is nothing to do with currency its about democracy, as the Greeks are beginning to realise.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
What I said does not bear that interpretation at all. My point is the economic fundamentals still apply and may be made worse by this deal. Forget the morality tale about evil leftists, especially as there have been right-wing governments in Greece too, and erect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
This deal is clearly not about what is best for Greece or the Greek people. The idea that the EU is in any way about solidarity has died totally, as has the strange notion expressed by many right-wing Eurosceptics that the EU is some kind of leftie plot.
We did not join the Euro and neither did Denmark. So why did Greece? They made promises and commitments when they joined. they are the ones that broke them.
As for leftie plots - we do not need the EU for that here. Lets not forget that after 13 years of socialism we are still cutting our welfare spending by 17 billion with another 20 billion of spending cuts. You expect me to feel sorry for the Greeks?
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Utter garbage. The EU is in no way bound by a Greek referendum. That is Tsipras's bag - he is the one who has betrayed his voters. The Greek vote was an internal matter - why on earth should the peoples of Latvia, Finland, Spain, Holland or anywhere else be required to give more money to the Greeks because they voted for it. I am not a fan of the EU but what you write is quite nonsensical and does the anti-EU cause no favours.
There is no need to be so rude, especially when you are insulting me for a position I do not even hold.
My apologies - but so many talk about the referendum as if 'it must be obeyed' because the Greeks voted for it. Life doesn't work that way.
Apology accepted. The Greek referendum must be obeyed by the Greek government. That referendum was on rejecting the deal, not on forcing the North to sign another deal. Once the Greek government has a direct mandate to reject a deal, it must either do so until it gets a direct mandate to overturn the first. If that leads to Euro exit, than so be it. What is happening right now is that the parliament is set to overrule the democratically expressed wishes of the people.
TBF their government told them that the "no" option would mean the banks reopening and staying in the Euro. It's not obvious that they'd have made the same choice if they'd been told the truth.
So if Scotland had voted "yes" after being told there would be a currency union with the UK, it would be reasonable to keep them in the union because 'it's not obvious' they would have voted the same way had they been told the truth? Give me a break. All sorts of untruths are told throughout election campaigns and it's up for the other side to point them out. It's not a reason to ignore democracy.
Out of interest what do you think the process should be here? The voters of Greece think Germany should give Greece more money without reform, but the voters of Germany think they shouldn't. Do the government of Germany have to honour the verdict of the voters of Greece because they had a referendum, and whoever does that wins? What if the voters of Germany had held a referendum as well, and voted against giving the Greeks more money? Toss a coin to break the tie?
I mean the whole dynamic shows what a catastrophic economic system the Eurozone is. The running of the economy is being decided by an anarchic brinkmanship with no central authority is a complete farce. But given we are where we are, the right process is to put the new deal to the Greek people, because it is simply appalling to overturn their directly stated view without consulting them again. If Germany wants to do the same, than so be it.
So hang on, what's the EU supposed to be doing here, specifically? The Greek government held a referendum, lied about what it meant, then turned around and ignored the result. But it's the duly elected government of Greece. What should the rest of the EU do?
a) Refuse to do the deal that the elected government of Greece is asking them to do? I'm pretty sure you'd be criticizing them for that.
b) Require that the Greeks have a referendum, against the wishes of the elected government? Now you're complaining about them having multiple referendums, and going over the heads of the elected government to boot.
c) Represent their own voters, work with the elected government, and leave them to decide how Greece wants to make decisions. That's what they just did, but you're clearly not happy with it.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
In the end, I suspect there will be another European war... Because the democratic deficit is not sustainable in the long term (especially as the long term trend across the world is actually away from elites and towards devolving powers down to the people)
That is the very worrying but seemingly inevitable end game to all this bollocks. For how long can the EU machine continue to ignore the people it is supposed to represent? A single currency requires a single country with a single demos if it is to avoid tyranny.
In the UK we are strong enough to survive either in or out of the EU, many others are not in such a powerful position.
Apology accepted. The Greek referendum must be obeyed by the Greek government. That referendum was on rejecting the deal, not on forcing the North to sign another deal. Once the Greek government has a direct mandate to reject a deal, it must either do so until it gets a direct mandate to overturn the first. If that leads to Euro exit, than so be it. What is happening right now is that the parliament is set to overrule the democratically expressed wishes of the people.
The referendum wasn't 'deal or no deal', it was 'deal or new deal'. Tsipras told people that voting No would give him a stronger negotiating position. If that didn't prove true he can be held to account through the normal democratic means.
Quite an interesting piece, not all about hunting and not as anti-Tory as the title suggests:
The draft Hunting Act 2004 (Exempt Hunting) (Amendment) Order 2015 is proposed to be made under the Hunting Act 2004, ss. 2(2), altering the schedule to that Act, which makes provision for exempt hunting. The effect of the Order, if made, would be entirely technical and minor. In no way would the Order restore the birthright of the English to tear apart foxes with hounds, which will remain a criminal offence (see section 1 of the 2004 Act). The Tories, in clear breach of their manifesto commitment, have foolishly decided to give Guardian readers and other supporters of "animal rights" the impression that they are restoring the people of England's birthright, while doing no such thing. The result will be lots of bad and hysterical publicity, like the above, for no real gain.
"It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated."
Don’t understand this logic – Tsipras called the referendum, promised the impossible and when he had won, still signed up to the conditions set for bailing his country out. – Why, because the Referendum was a Sixth form political stunt which made no material difference to dealing with his EU creditors - a NO vote did not make the problems go away.
Quite an interesting piece, not all about hunting and not as anti-Tory as the title suggests:
The draft Hunting Act 2004 (Exempt Hunting) (Amendment) Order 2015 is proposed to be made under the Hunting Act 2004, ss. 2(2), altering the schedule to that Act, which makes provision for exempt hunting. The effect of the Order, if made, would be entirely technical and minor. In no way would the Order restore the birthright of the English to tear apart foxes with hounds, which will remain a criminal offence (see section 1 of the 2004 Act). The Tories, in clear breach of their manifesto commitment, have foolishly decided to give Guardian readers and other supporters of "animal rights" the impression that they are restoring the people of England's birthright, while doing no such thing. The result will be lots of bad and hysterical publicity, like the above, for no real gain.
It seems very likely that any direct attempt to repeal the Hunting Act would fail. There are likely to be too many rebels on the Conservative side.
Apology accepted. The Greek referendum must be obeyed by the Greek government. That referendum was on rejecting the deal, not on forcing the North to sign another deal. Once the Greek government has a direct mandate to reject a deal, it must either do so until it gets a direct mandate to overturn the first. If that leads to Euro exit, than so be it. What is happening right now is that the parliament is set to overrule the democratically expressed wishes of the people.
The referendum wasn't 'deal or no deal', it was 'deal or new deal'. Tsipras told people that voting No would give him a stronger negotiating position. If that didn't prove true he can be held to account through the normal democratic means.
That's "accept or reject", not "deal or new deal". Of course, each side on the referendum claimed a "no" would lead to different things, as happened with the IndyRef, but governments must follow the actual question asked.
Apology accepted. The Greek referendum must be obeyed by the Greek government. That referendum was on rejecting the deal, not on forcing the North to sign another deal. Once the Greek government has a direct mandate to reject a deal, it must either do so until it gets a direct mandate to overturn the first. If that leads to Euro exit, than so be it. What is happening right now is that the parliament is set to overrule the democratically expressed wishes of the people.
The referendum wasn't 'deal or no deal', it was 'deal or new deal'. Tsipras told people that voting No would give him a stronger negotiating position. If that didn't prove true he can be held to account through the normal democratic means.
That's "accept or reject", not "deal or new deal". Of course, each side on the referendum claimed a "no" would lead to different things, as happened with the IndyRef, but governments must follow the actual question asked.
And they did reject the deal. You do agree that this deal is materially different?
As a side effect of the Euro chaos, isn't the weakening of the euro boosting German export industries into an even stronger position?
Yep the weak Euro helps the German balance of payments.
Of course it means their workers are working for less cash than they should... but that isn't much comfort to British exporters !
It's certainly not helping the likes of Jaguar LandRover or McLaren, who are seeing BMW, Mercedes and Porsche rivals get cheaper when priced in the dollars they are sold in the USA, Middle East and China.
Quite an interesting piece, not all about hunting and not as anti-Tory as the title suggests:
The draft Hunting Act 2004 (Exempt Hunting) (Amendment) Order 2015 is proposed to be made under the Hunting Act 2004, ss. 2(2), altering the schedule to that Act, which makes provision for exempt hunting. The effect of the Order, if made, would be entirely technical and minor. In no way would the Order restore the birthright of the English to tear apart foxes with hounds, which will remain a criminal offence (see section 1 of the 2004 Act). The Tories, in clear breach of their manifesto commitment, have foolishly decided to give Guardian readers and other supporters of "animal rights" the impression that they are restoring the people of England's birthright, while doing no such thing. The result will be lots of bad and hysterical publicity, like the above, for no real gain.
It seems very likely that any direct attempt to repeal the Hunting Act would fail. There are likely to be too many rebels on the Conservative side.
Depends if the SNP abstain or vote against repeal. If the SNP abstain the Tories have a lead of 100 over Labour so even if 40 Tories vote against repeal it could still be repealed by something like 290-270. The LDs are split on hunting, unionists are generally in favour as is Carswell I imagine and Lucas against. There are also 1 or 2 Labour MPs like Kate Hoey who have made clear they will back repeal
(Although it is not a full repeal but an increase in the number of dogs that can be used to flush out foxes so they can be shot)
Tsipras told people that voting No would give him a stronger negotiating position. If that didn't prove true he can be held to account through the normal democratic means.
I was basically an Inner after Concessions sort - then increasingly becoming a BOOer given the general incompetence of Eurocrats. The Greek situation doesn't change my view as I think we're too big for the EU, and it'd never happen to us anyway.
Just a thought, those on here that favour IN, have events in Greece altered your views in any way?
snip
Plato's comment and your reply show little grasp of reality. We are not in the Euro and are a million miles from ever being in. There is for us effectively no difference to being in or out of the EU. Out of it, we will still be applying EU directives still paying to EU regional funds and still part of the single market and movement of Labour. It is crass (yes crass Miss Plato) to think that rejecting terms renegotiated from within and from a position of leverage - no matter how good for us - is clever, only to be faced with renegotiating them all again from without and no leverage in order to access the single market.
Far from being a nightmare for Cameron it vividly highlights the need for the reforms he wants and clearly emphasises the need for us to negotiate a clear position in respect of the inevitable ever closer union of the Eurozone. The EU will be more likely to face these reforms now.
The issue is the ever closer union of the Eurozone members and how we relate to it. Do we orbit it from the EEA or from still within the EU? There will be very little difference in reality - our financial institutions and our economy will still have a big rival on our doorstep.
See what I mean about entrenched positions? I was interested to hear what undecided thought, not those who would stay IN regardless. And heaven knows why you mentioned the Euro, this is nothing to do with currency its about democracy, as the Greeks are beginning to realise.
You are blind and deaf. You are the entrenched position. There will be little difference to being in or out. These are the facts of life. I can happily live with being in the EEA - especially if it is by mutual consent - but I am not so naive as to think it will make any difference, or that simply walking out irrespective of terms is clever. It may be the best for us but the EU will not go away. The absolute issue is the Eurozone and how we relate to the inevitable ever closer union of it within the EU. The Eurozone will become a defacto single continental-wide country. A common currency with common interest rates will lead to common taxation policies will lead to common economic policies and common political decisions. We will not be part of that and we have to decide how to relate to it.
Quite an interesting piece, not all about hunting and not as anti-Tory as the title suggests:
The draft Hunting Act 2004 (Exempt Hunting) (Amendment) Order 2015 is proposed to be made under the Hunting Act 2004, ss. 2(2), altering the schedule to that Act, which makes provision for exempt hunting. The effect of the Order, if made, would be entirely technical and minor. In no way would the Order restore the birthright of the English to tear apart foxes with hounds, which will remain a criminal offence (see section 1 of the 2004 Act). The Tories, in clear breach of their manifesto commitment, have foolishly decided to give Guardian readers and other supporters of "animal rights" the impression that they are restoring the people of England's birthright, while doing no such thing. The result will be lots of bad and hysterical publicity, like the above, for no real gain.
It seems very likely that any direct attempt to repeal the Hunting Act would fail. There are likely to be too many rebels on the Conservative side.
Depends if the SNP abstain or vote against repeal. If the SNP abstain the Tories have a lead of 100 over Labour so even if 40 Tories vote for repeal it could still be repealed by something like 290-270. The LDs are split on hunting, unionists are generally in favour as is Carswell I imagine and Lucas against. There are also 1 or 2 Labour MPs like Kate Hoey who have made clear they will back repeal
SNP spending too much time worrying about whether they can stick their noses in - meanwhile they have taken the eye off the ball at home- police Scotland seems to be imploding
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
As a side effect of the Euro chaos, isn't the weakening of the euro boosting German export industries into an even stronger position?
Yep the weak Euro helps the German balance of payments.
Of course it means their workers are working for less cash than they should... but that isn't much comfort to British exporters !
There is a cynical case for joining the Euro to benefit from this just as Germany does. Of course, there will be those who insist on joining at too high a rate in order to impose discipline and austerity, so a happy result cannot be guaranteed.
You are blind and deaf. You are the entrenched position. There will be little difference to being in or out. These are the facts of life. I can happily live with being in the EEA - especially if it is by mutual consent - but I am not so naive as to think it will make any difference, or that simply walking out irrespective of terms is clever. It may be the best for us but the EU will not go away. The absolute issue is the Eurozone and how we relate to the inevitable ever closer union of it within the EU. The Eurozone will become a defacto single continental-wide country. A common currency with common interest rates will lead to common taxation policies will lead to common economic policies and common political decisions. We will not be part of that and we have to decide how to relate to it.
Why must people on this forum be so rude? It is possible to disagree with people without calling them "blind and deaf".
Quite an interesting piece, not all about hunting and not as anti-Tory as the title suggests:
The draft Hunting Act 2004 (Exempt Hunting) (Amendment) Order 2015 is proposed to be made under the Hunting Act 2004, ss. 2(2), altering the schedule to that Act, which makes provision for exempt hunting. The effect of the Order, if made, would be entirely technical and minor. In no way would the Order restore the birthright of the English to tear apart foxes with hounds, which will remain a criminal offence (see section 1 of the 2004 Act). The Tories, in clear breach of their manifesto commitment, have foolishly decided to give Guardian readers and other supporters of "animal rights" the impression that they are restoring the people of England's birthright, while doing no such thing. The result will be lots of bad and hysterical publicity, like the above, for no real gain.
It seems very likely that any direct attempt to repeal the Hunting Act would fail. There are likely to be too many rebels on the Conservative side.
Depends if the SNP abstain or vote against repeal. If the SNP abstain the Tories have a lead of 100 over Labour so even if 40 Tories vote against repeal it could still be repealed by something like 290-270. The LDs are split on hunting, unionists are generally in favour as is Carswell I imagine and Lucas against. There are also 1 or 2 Labour MPs like Kate Hoey who have made clear they will back repeal
SNP spending too much time worrying about whether they can stick their noses in - meanwhile they have taken the eye off the ball at home- police Scotland seems to be imploding
Indeed, but with a significant Tory rebellion likely on the hunting bill, this could be the type of issue where what the SNP decides is crucial. If the SNP vote against repeal, the hunting ban stands as it is, if they abstain it could well be repealed
It seems very likely that any direct attempt to repeal the Hunting Act would fail. There are likely to be too many rebels on the Conservative side.
The manifesto, which voters were entitled to take at its word, promised a free vote on a government bill in government time. That does not need a vote. In any event, it would be very difficult for the SNP to justify voting on a Bill to repeal the 2004 Act, even under their new definition of which votes affect Scotland.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
What I said does not bear that interpretation at all. My point is the economic fundamentals still apply and may be made worse by this deal. Forget the morality tale about evil leftists, especially as there have been right-wing governments in Greece too, and erect a statue to Gordon Brown for keeping us out of the dangerously flawed Eurozone.
This deal is clearly not about what is best for Greece or the Greek people. The idea that the EU is in any way about solidarity has died totally, as has the strange notion expressed by many right-wing Eurosceptics that the EU is some kind of leftie plot.
1976
‘A common currency means common government; the one is meaningless and impossible without the other. Accept common money and you have accepted common government ….If one threatens to diverge what happens? …..they order it to alter its ways and dictate to it how to do so. Who then is doing the dictating? Where will be that common government which a common currency implies?……France and Germany, who hatched and willed this business, will see to it that they rule the roost: a Franco German hegemony , as France intends, or a German hegemony….All this has nothing to do with common markets or freedom of trade or all the alleged ideals of the EEC. Quite the reverse. This is not about freedom; it is about compulsion.’
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
Sturgeon's massive leader ratings over Miliband were very relevant to Scotland.
Apology accepted. The Greek referendum must be obeyed by the Greek government. That referendum was on rejecting the deal, not on forcing the North to sign another deal. Once the Greek government has a direct mandate to reject a deal, it must either do so until it gets a direct mandate to overturn the first. If that leads to Euro exit, than so be it. What is happening right now is that the parliament is set to overrule the democratically expressed wishes of the people.
The referendum wasn't 'deal or no deal', it was 'deal or new deal'. Tsipras told people that voting No would give him a stronger negotiating position. If that didn't prove true he can be held to account through the normal democratic means.
That's "accept or reject", not "deal or new deal". Of course, each side on the referendum claimed a "no" would lead to different things, as happened with the IndyRef, but governments must follow the actual question asked.
And they did reject the deal. You do agree that this deal is materially different?
Yes, they're worse, so even more in contravention of the democratic will. It would be like the government having a referendum on an EU treaty, the public say no, and the government signs up for full federalism a week later.
Mr flightpath what an unpleasant person you are, I ask a perfectly civil question of undecideds and receive nothing but condescending abuse from you. That's what happens when the argument is lost.
Farage is completely right here. The public were directly consulted on accepting an EU deal and they, by a large majority, said no. Just a week later, the government has gone and done the direct opposite policy. And one that is even less favourable to the Greeks than the first one.
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Utter garbage. The EU is in no way bound by a Greek referendum. That is Tsipras's bag - he is the one who has betrayed his voters. The Greek vote was an internal matter - why on earth should the peoples of Latvia, Finland, Spain, Holland or anywhere else be required to give more money to the Greeks because they voted for it. I am not a fan of the EU but what you write is quite nonsensical and does the anti-EU cause no favours.
There is no need to be so rude, especially when you are insulting me for a position I do not even hold.
My apologies - but so many talk about the referendum as if 'it must be obeyed' because the Greeks voted for it. Life doesn't work that way.
I think your conclusions were perfectly valid. There is no comparison between ourselves and the Greeks. The Greek vote was about accepting terms of a loan from the rest. Rejecting terms of a loan does not bind the lender to change them. Farage as ever talks rubbish. Indeed its the alleged likely Tory MP leader of the OUT campaign that has said its better to vote OUT first in order to get a better second deal from the EU. This of course was desperate dissembling on his part. An OUT vote will mean OUT. Lets just hope one way or another it's decisive.
Yes, they're worse, so even more in contravention of the democratic will.
Worse is a subjective judgement. Some, including on the Greek side, would say that this agreement has more chance of addressing the fundamental problems.
What the polls didn't pick up was the smashing of Labour in Scotland by the SNP
Yes they did!
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
They still (slightly) overestimated Labour, but at the expense of SNP rather than Cons.
Economic reality being a permanently overvalued currency that sucks in imports and makes exports (including tourism) harder; a bailout that bailed out French and German banks but not the Greeks; and forced asset sales to foreigners who will withdraw profits from Greece. Yes, it is, as you say, a bitch.
And that translates into "It kills people. But I expect you find that amusing, MM." how, exactly?
I'm sure you find it hard to see your fellow leftist dreamers having to confront stark reality. But it was those same leftists overseeing the collapse in the Greek economy - and the consequential difficulties in importing medicine - that "kills people". Hardly a laughing matter.
No, austerity destroyed the Greek economy. That has been in place for a number of years, not just for the last few months. The decision to allow Greece to join the Euro in the first place was enabled by that bastion of left wing thinking Goldman Sachs and approved by a variety of governments of all political colours, as well as a coterie of highly-paid bankers. Taking pleasure in the misery of millions out of some ridiculous notion this is all about incompetent lefties is not a great look.
This is completely the wrong way around. The Greek economy was destroyed by corrupt politicians who spent too much, borrowed too much, employed too many in the State and gave them absurd pension rights, all while doing nothing to adapt the Greek economy in a way that would allow it to compete once the safeguard of devaluation was taken away.
The consequence of these failures is austerity, which involves internal devaluation (wage cuts) increased taxes (not paid unfortunately), a smaller state and less public spending. This has shrunk the economy by 25% over the last 5 years but to blame austerity for that is to assume that the economy 5 years ago was viable at that time and in that shape. It absolutely wasn't.
Much of this of course applied to the UK in 2008 as well. But we had the capacity to devalue (which didn't help a lot in truth) and print more money. We also had the sense to elect sane governments, unlike the Greeks who went in the opposite direction.
"In suburban cul-de-sacs as much as post-industrial backwaters, you can very occasionally get beyond people’s cynicism about politicians – “they don’t give a monkey’s about what happens down here,” one Labour-Ukip switcher told me in Clacton – and see flashes of what they think the mainstream parties lack. Outside the Westminster fishbowl, they seem cold and mechanistic, and devoid of any real sense of how people live. Even such visceral issues as immigration and “welfare” are too often reduced to dry statistics, particularly on the increasingly rare occasions when politicians are trying to make a progressive(ish) case."
"Unfortunately, even if Labour’s current contenders have their talents, its domination by professionalised politicians always threatens to render even its more promising messages tinny and forced. I am not sure Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham or Liz Kendall are the kind of people who can represent much beyond the rise of a remote political class. The most successful UK politicians of recent years – Tony Blair, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Nigel Farage – have proved that speaking to and for millions of voters requires a sense of vision and an approach rooted in culture as much as dry politics. Unfortunately, whether or not Labour can provide those things does not seem to be a question this generation is going to be able to answer."
Nothing much has changed as far as Greece and the Eurozone is concerned. I said on here, as others did, weeks ago that Greece doesn't want to leave the Euro and the EZ cannot afford to have Greece leave the Euro because of the precedent it would set.
If Greece walks away from the Euro, it sets the precedent for others to do so - if Greece is thrown out of the Euro, it sets the precedent that others can and will be.
Like so many others on here, I've struggled with Tsipras and his strategy (if he had one). The NO vote was, I think, his hope that the EZ would offer a deal he could easily sell but instead the EZ have called his bluff and he has basically folded (to stretch the card-playing analogy).
Tsipras knows that with ND support, he can get the deal through his Parliament and all the other EZ parliaments will play ball for the reasons outlined above. I thought it hugely significant the deal was announced at the start of trading - I wonder if the EZ thought the market ramifications of there being no deal and the resulting volatility would be disastrous for Greece and for others.
What worries me is the threat of the sense of national humiliation. This isn't something the British know anything about but most other European nations have experienced it. The sense of futility and helplessness is replaced by a sense of anger and resentment. To laugh about it, as one person did on here this morning, is to make a crass misunderstanding of how this could play out.
The siren calls of extremism in Greece will be that much harder to counter - the Greeks, like most other nations, are a proud people and the process by which they have been effectively economically and politically annexed by the EZ isn't something for cheap political jibes.
Comments
Therefore, it is not actually going to make the slightest difference and even if over the next few weeks, it is voted through, it will NOT improve the situation. That's probably all the incentive that Syriza will need to reject it. The mere fact that they will be defying political and economic reality by doing so is unlikely to factor in their calculations - after all, when has it stopped them in the past?
Chancellor Merkel says that the eurogroup is ready to consider extending the maturity on Greek loans, but a “nominal haircut” is out of the question.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33504602
Syriza are basically a Student Union placed in charge of a country. They would be considered laughably inept, if the consequences of their incompetence weren't so serious.
The leaders of the EZ on the other hand, believe that no level of suffering is too great to achieve European political integration. Indeed, falling GDP and high unemployment are nothing more than a political virility test.
Its hard to see how the situation could be made worse when Greece has run out of money and needs vast loans to survive.
I know the EU and Eurozone are not the same thing, but this on-going clusterf*ck is making even someone relatively Pro EU like myself consider that 'Brexit' might not be the worst thing in the world.
Better to do the right thing for the wrong reasons than the reverse.
Maybe what he wanted all along was to co-opt the EU in forcing through a domestic revolution.
Thank you for that. I had no idea that Brown once supported the Euro. That seems to eliminate the primary defining achievement of his otherwise poor record.
"The way that social security is delivered at the moment is resented by the public who pay for it, the clients who use it, and the staff who run it. For many people, the current system is fragmented, reactive, inflexible and confusing."
1998
If Blair had wanted to stay out of the Euro.......
The deal is typical of the EU in that it was always likely to arrive in the end but everyone needed to show they'd fought to the last minute. I think the suggestions that it's inadequate, still depends on more talks, etc., misunderstand the dynamics - everyone involved has a stake in making it work, and it will, after a fashion.
Incidientally, the journos grumbling about the all-might session are pathetic. A decision affecting the economic survival of a country and the economic affairs of an entire confident, and they have to spend some time dozing while they wait for the resulty? Diddums.
Today, as Greece grasps its ankles and assumes the position - that is down to choices the most recent left-wing Govt. has made. The left owns this mess.
So does he believe that dignity is better than poverty for his people? In the style of many Central American countries, he should have considered a Grexit, brought back the drachma linked at a low rate to a basket of currencies and and not messed up Greece's hugely important summer tourist trade and so kept his people relatively happy. Of course all tourist payments would have to be made in a hard currency but this would have paid for Greek essential imports. Not an ideal solution, but would have allowed the Greeks to have a reasonably foreseeable future on which they could build - now?
Germany has its mitts all over it and wants it - we don't. So I'm going more into the BOO camp regardless of concessions.
If Scotland wants independence, then planning for a new currency, central bank and reserve needs to start now, so that a soft launch could happen. What cannot be allowed to happen is the fantasy sold last time.
And never forget that Mrs Thatcher attacked Jim Callaghan for keeping us out of the snake. What's your point? In the instance you reference, Labour was trying -- and almost succeeded, with the aid of Conservative eurosceptics -- to bring down the Major government.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/12/relaxing-hunting-ban-retoxify-tories
It's completely clear that referendums are meaningless when it comes to the EU. Voters in France, the Netherlands and now Greece are just completely ignored. The political elite regards the public not as their bosses, but as plebs to be manipulated.
Being seen as nice/nasty is almost irrelevant by comparison. It is always better for a political party to be respected than to be liked.
Tax, spending, privatisations and the structure of industries - the stuff that shapes lives - would be determined by emergency legislation rushed through the Greek parliament by Wednesday, with no opportunity for serious debate.
Only if an entire parliament demonstrably surrenders by the middle of this week would the rest of the eurozone start talks on possibly extending the additional €86bn of finance Greece needs to prevent future default and the total collapse of its banking system. And for what it's worth, the presumption among other eurozone leaders that Mr Tsipras is willing and able to deliver the abject obeisance of Athens lawmakers may turn out to be naive.
There would in effect be a takeover, for years, of Greece by Berlin, Brussels and the IMF in Washington.
Monitors, from the IMF, would be permanently stationed in Athens, to prevent backsliding by the administration. Privatisation proceeds would be put into some kind of escrow account, possibly in Luxembourg. Athens would be deprived of even a figleaf of national economic autonomy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33503330
We are not in the Euro and are a million miles from ever being in. There is for us effectively no difference to being in or out of the EU. Out of it, we will still be applying EU directives still paying to EU regional funds and still part of the single market and movement of Labour.
It is crass (yes crass Miss Plato) to think that rejecting terms renegotiated from within and from a position of leverage - no matter how good for us - is clever, only to be faced with renegotiating them all again from without and no leverage in order to access the single market.
Far from being a nightmare for Cameron it vividly highlights the need for the reforms he wants and clearly emphasises the need for us to negotiate a clear position in respect of the inevitable ever closer union of the Eurozone. The EU will be more likely to face these reforms now.
The issue is the ever closer union of the Eurozone members and how we relate to it. Do we orbit it from the EEA or from still within the EU? There will be very little difference in reality - our financial institutions and our economy will still have a big rival on our doorstep.
There seems increasingly little sanity left on PBdotcom
As for leftie plots - we do not need the EU for that here. Lets not forget that after 13 years of socialism we are still cutting our welfare spending by 17 billion with another 20 billion of spending cuts. You expect me to feel sorry for the Greeks?
a) Refuse to do the deal that the elected government of Greece is asking them to do? I'm pretty sure you'd be criticizing them for that.
b) Require that the Greeks have a referendum, against the wishes of the elected government? Now you're complaining about them having multiple referendums, and going over the heads of the elected government to boot.
c) Represent their own voters, work with the elected government, and leave them to decide how Greece wants to make decisions. That's what they just did, but you're clearly not happy with it.
For how long can the EU machine continue to ignore the people it is supposed to represent?
A single currency requires a single country with a single demos if it is to avoid tyranny.
In the UK we are strong enough to survive either in or out of the EU, many others are not in such a powerful position.
Of course it means their workers are working for less cash than they should... but that isn't much comfort to British exporters !
Don’t understand this logic – Tsipras called the referendum, promised the impossible and when he had won, still signed up to the conditions set for bailing his country out. – Why, because the Referendum was a Sixth form political stunt which made no material difference to dealing with his EU creditors - a NO vote did not make the problems go away.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIqygh0UAAEJe5C.png
That's "accept or reject", not "deal or new deal". Of course, each side on the referendum claimed a "no" would lead to different things, as happened with the IndyRef, but governments must follow the actual question asked.
(Although it is not a full repeal but an increase in the number of dogs that can be used to flush out foxes so they can be shot)
There will be little difference to being in or out. These are the facts of life.
I can happily live with being in the EEA - especially if it is by mutual consent - but I am not so naive as to think it will make any difference, or that simply walking out irrespective of terms is clever. It may be the best for us but the EU will not go away.
The absolute issue is the Eurozone and how we relate to the inevitable ever closer union of it within the EU. The Eurozone will become a defacto single continental-wide country. A common currency with common interest rates will lead to common taxation policies will lead to common economic policies and common political decisions. We will not be part of that and we have to decide how to relate to it.
This is the most bizarre thing said on PB for the last year. The one thing the polls got absolutely spot on was Labour being obliterated by the SNP in Scotland.
‘A common currency means common government; the one is meaningless and impossible without the other. Accept common money and you have accepted common government ….If one threatens to diverge what happens? …..they order it to alter its ways and dictate to it how to do so. Who then is doing the dictating? Where will be that common government which a common currency implies?……France and Germany, who hatched and willed this business, will see to it that they rule the roost: a Franco German hegemony , as France intends, or a German hegemony….All this has nothing to do with common markets or freedom of trade or all the alleged ideals of the EEC. Quite the reverse. This is not about freedom; it is about compulsion.’
Farage as ever talks rubbish. Indeed its the alleged likely Tory MP leader of the OUT campaign that has said its better to vote OUT first in order to get a better second deal from the EU. This of course was desperate dissembling on his part. An OUT vote will mean OUT. Lets just hope one way or another it's decisive.
The consequence of these failures is austerity, which involves internal devaluation (wage cuts) increased taxes (not paid unfortunately), a smaller state and less public spending. This has shrunk the economy by 25% over the last 5 years but to blame austerity for that is to assume that the economy 5 years ago was viable at that time and in that shape. It absolutely wasn't.
Much of this of course applied to the UK in 2008 as well. But we had the capacity to devalue (which didn't help a lot in truth) and print more money. We also had the sense to elect sane governments, unlike the Greeks who went in the opposite direction.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/13/labour-party-2020-movement
"In suburban cul-de-sacs as much as post-industrial backwaters, you can very occasionally get beyond people’s cynicism about politicians – “they don’t give a monkey’s about what happens down here,” one Labour-Ukip switcher told me in Clacton – and see flashes of what they think the mainstream parties lack. Outside the Westminster fishbowl, they seem cold and mechanistic, and devoid of any real sense of how people live. Even such visceral issues as immigration and “welfare” are too often reduced to dry statistics, particularly on the increasingly rare occasions when politicians are trying to make a progressive(ish) case."
"Unfortunately, even if Labour’s current contenders have their talents, its domination by professionalised politicians always threatens to render even its more promising messages tinny and forced. I am not sure Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham or Liz Kendall are the kind of people who can represent much beyond the rise of a remote political class. The most successful UK politicians of recent years – Tony Blair, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Nigel Farage – have proved that speaking to and for millions of voters requires a sense of vision and an approach rooted in culture as much as dry politics. Unfortunately, whether or not Labour can provide those things does not seem to be a question this generation is going to be able to answer."
Nothing much has changed as far as Greece and the Eurozone is concerned. I said on here, as others did, weeks ago that Greece doesn't want to leave the Euro and the EZ cannot afford to have Greece leave the Euro because of the precedent it would set.
If Greece walks away from the Euro, it sets the precedent for others to do so - if Greece is thrown out of the Euro, it sets the precedent that others can and will be.
Like so many others on here, I've struggled with Tsipras and his strategy (if he had one). The NO vote was, I think, his hope that the EZ would offer a deal he could easily sell but instead the EZ have called his bluff and he has basically folded (to stretch the card-playing analogy).
Tsipras knows that with ND support, he can get the deal through his Parliament and all the other EZ parliaments will play ball for the reasons outlined above. I thought it hugely significant the deal was announced at the start of trading - I wonder if the EZ thought the market ramifications of there being no deal and the resulting volatility would be disastrous for Greece and for others.
What worries me is the threat of the sense of national humiliation. This isn't something the British know anything about but most other European nations have experienced it. The sense of futility and helplessness is replaced by a sense of anger and resentment. To laugh about it, as one person did on here this morning, is to make a crass misunderstanding of how this could play out.
The siren calls of extremism in Greece will be that much harder to counter - the Greeks, like most other nations, are a proud people and the process by which they have been effectively economically and politically annexed by the EZ isn't something for cheap political jibes.
Now that the official statement is available, summary and bullet points to follow shortly?