Nope. Greece would be in this mess no matter who had been elected. It was the pro EU parties in Greece who set them on the road to ruin and to lay all of the current problems at the door of Tsipiras - no matter what his politics - is ridiculous.
Partly true, partly false. The enormous growth Greece enjoyed since about 1995, which then accelerated when they joined the Euro, was down to the parties then in power. They were pro-EU for the simple reason that that's where the money came from, and they let the good times roll, creaming it off the top, lying about their accounts, nobody cared or even noticed, trebles all round, let's have a big navy, why not, PAARTAY. And when the crunch hit, that rapid growth went straight into reverse, oooh shiit. So that part of your analysis is correct.
But when the last government got in (the one that Syriza beat), they started to cope again. Times were very hard, but they were coping: "maintaining", in the parlance, keeping it together, even growing a little bit.
Then Syriza got in and in what, three months, they trashed it all. Stupid, stupid people.
Don't let your stance on the EU blind you to Syriza's stupidity. Sometimes, your enemy's enemy is not your friend
Syriza have merely exposed the faults and contradictions at the heart of the Eurozone project. One of the great ironies of the European project is that it's failing now because they didn't consolidate the government debts of the eurozone members at the birth of the single currency back in 1999. No single currency in the entire economic history of the world has survived without consolidating the debts into one within the single currency area going right back to the Romans and the Greeks. And they didn't do it back then in a much more amenable world, because they didn't think that the Germans and northern Europeans would accept their debt being consolidated with their relatively more indebted club Med eurozone members. And to think that some of the Europhiles were so confident that the Euro was going to usurp the US Dollar as the global reserve currency - how pathetically little they understood back then and how little they understand now about why the shambles is quite rightly falling apart.
I think it will be a 'Yes' too. The Greeks seem extremely beholden to remaining in the Euro, and the EU. I think it's a matter of national pride - even if life was easier I don't think they want the drachma back.
A "Yes" vote will, of course, confirm to the followers of the true faith of European Integration that the people are clamouring for "More Europe".
I have now asked my Greek flatmate, and she's told me in no uncertain terms that Greeks hate the euro, and can't wait to get rid of it. She says that Greeks just grumble about things but never get off their arses and do anything, but that the election Syriza, rightly or wrongly, is a decisive break with the past. Just her view, but she must have her reasons.
If Greece wants to leave the Euro, it can decide to do exactly that on July 5th.
@HackneyAbbott: I have signed an emergency letter of solidarity with the Greek people calling for debt cancellation #CancelGreekDebt http://t.co/nbjNAlg4WR
Words fail. Typical socialist attitude , take the money, blow it all, bitch you have to pay it back under the agreed terms, do a flounce and then shout for debt cancellation.
Jeeez we dodged a fecking howitzer shell in May we truly did.
Debt which cannot be paid because of an economy which has shrunk after the imposition of creditor-imposed policy should be cancelled. In this case, Germany should stump up because they enjoy lowered export advantage.
Bagloads of money are available to Greece from the IMF etc if they carry out reforms. Greece now has no lender of last resort and its ratings lie somewhere at the bottom of the Mid Atlantic trench. Dredging up Germany in those circumstances comes across as beneath pathetic to me.
The problem with currency unions without economic union is that the richer is on the hook for the poorer. Sadly, the European- and specifically German - taxpayer doesn't seem to have realised this.
I still don't think you have quite worked out what is going on. There already is a currency and economic union. But Greece is a sovereign country (much though I like to dismay kippers); it - the sovereign country - is the one in debt. What we are however seeing is that a currency union will inevitably lead to a closer (ever closer) fiscal and political union. This is the exact point Cameron is making and why he wants to negotiate changes that keep Britain out of that and protects our own financial services.
There is no economic union without consolidating the debts, and having direct taxation from the core of the Eurozone area, ie directly from the EU parliament in Brussels. But then, there never has been a European identity. I don't call myself European, neither does a Frenchman or a German or Italian. They are French, German or Italian first. You simply won't have a credible stable framework for economic union without the people being in favour of it, and feeling European first and foremost. Centuries of European history will preclude that from ever being the case.
It's been interesting to see all the furore over flying the confederate flag in South Carolina - I would suggest that that is the very birth pangs of the US splitting up over the next 20-30 years, when the US is usurped on the global stage by China / India during the first half of this century.
Glancing over the pond, the NDP (socialists by North American standards, i believe - but do others know them better?) seem to be pulling away - they've led in all the last 8 polls. Latest update:
@HackneyAbbott: I have signed an emergency letter of solidarity with the Greek people calling for debt cancellation #CancelGreekDebt http://t.co/nbjNAlg4WR
Words fail. Typical socialist attitude , take the money, blow it all, bitch you have to pay it back under the agreed terms, do a flounce and then shout for debt cancellation.
Jeeez we dodged a fecking howitzer shell in May we truly did.
Debt which cannot be paid because of an economy which has shrunk after the imposition of creditor-imposed policy should be cancelled. In this case, Germany should stump up because they enjoy lowered export advantage.
Bagloads of money are available to Greece from the IMF etc if they carry out reforms. Greece now has no lender of last resort and its ratings lie somewhere at the bottom of the Mid Atlantic trench. Dredging up Germany in those circumstances comes across as beneath pathetic to me.
The problem with currency unions without economic union is that the richer is on the hook for the poorer. Sadly, the European- and specifically German - taxpayer doesn't seem to have realised this.
I still don't think you have quite worked out what is going on. There already is a currency and economic union. But Greece is a sovereign country (much though I like to dismay kippers); it - the sovereign country - is the one in debt. What we are however seeing is that a currency union will inevitably lead to a closer (ever closer) fiscal and political union. This is the exact point Cameron is making and why he wants to negotiate changes that keep Britain out of that and protects our own financial services.
Nope, just the currency union. Without harmonisation of taxes, benefits, debt issuance and arrangement for fiscal transfer the Eurozone remains a fudge. Fudges tend to fall apart when under acute pressure.
Yet another thing that is unravelling by the day, as evidence quite literally accumulates to the contrary of everything they've been saying. The Arctic Ice Free by 2015, Mr Harrabin and his fellow followers proudly boasted on the BBC back in 2007. Would they now like to come on air and apologise for their ludicrous prediction? Do pigs fly?!!
Good night all, and good night AGW and the Eurozone.
Glancing over the pond, the NDP (socialists by North American standards, i believe - but do others know them better?) seem to be pulling away - they've led in all the last 8 polls. Latest update:
Many moons ago (late 1970s) when living in Canada, I bought a car off the former NDP leader (somebody Lewis).
It was less than a year old, a beautiful top of the line Cadillac Coupe de Ville, with sumptuous leather seats, an 8.2 liter engine, and all in all a gorgeous car. It's the only GM car I've owned that I really liked.
hunchman China and India have their own internal tensions and the Federal System in the US should keep it as one nation, though the south is culturally a rather different region to the rest of the US
Glancing over the pond, the NDP (socialists by North American standards, i believe - but do others know them better?) seem to be pulling away - they've led in all the last 8 polls. Latest update:
Many moons ago (late 1970s) when living in Canada, I bought a car off the former NDP leader (somebody Lewis).
It was less than a year old, a beautiful top of the line Cadillac Coupe de Ville, with sumptuous leather seats, an 8.2 liter engine, and all in all a gorgeous car. It's the only GM car I've owned that I really liked.
hunchman China and India have their own internal tensions and the Federal System in the US should keep it as one nation, though the south is culturally a rather different region to the rest of the US
Glancing over the pond, the NDP (socialists by North American standards, i believe - but do others know them better?) seem to be pulling away - they've led in all the last 8 polls. Latest update:
Many moons ago (late 1970s) when living in Canada, I bought a car off the former NDP leader (somebody Lewis).
It was less than a year old, a beautiful top of the line Cadillac Coupe de Ville, with sumptuous leather seats, an 8.2 liter engine, and all in all a gorgeous car. It's the only GM car I've owned that I really liked.
Glancing over the pond, the NDP (socialists by North American standards, i believe - but do others know them better?) seem to be pulling away - they've led in all the last 8 polls. Latest update:
Many moons ago (late 1970s) when living in Canada, I bought a car off the former NDP leader (somebody Lewis).
It was less than a year old, a beautiful top of the line Cadillac Coupe de Ville, with sumptuous leather seats, an 8.2 liter engine, and all in all a gorgeous car. It's the only GM car I've owned that I really liked.
Any liar, moron or war-mongerer with a club and a ball can play golf. It's much better to know that Mr Lewis passed the all-important political test, would you buy a used car from this man?
Glancing over the pond, the NDP (socialists by North American standards, i believe - but do others know them better?) seem to be pulling away - they've led in all the last 8 polls. Latest update:
Many moons ago (late 1970s) when living in Canada, I bought a car off the former NDP leader (somebody Lewis).
It was less than a year old, a beautiful top of the line Cadillac Coupe de Ville, with sumptuous leather seats, an 8.2 liter engine, and all in all a gorgeous car. It's the only GM car I've owned that I really liked.
I read that in Charlton Heston's voice. Best. Anecdote. Evah.
Yet another thing that is unravelling by the day, as evidence quite literally accumulates to the contrary of everything they've been saying. The Arctic Ice Free by 2015, Mr Harrabin and his fellow followers proudly boasted on the BBC back in 2007. Would they now like to come on air and apologise for their ludicrous prediction? Do pigs fly?!!
Good night all, and good night AGW and the Eurozone.
You're a strange fish, hunchman. For a man who is fond of modelling and predictions, you'd think you'd have a bit more tolerance for modelled predictions not quite hitting the mark.
@HackneyAbbott: I have signed an emergency letter of solidarity with the Greek people calling for debt cancellation #CancelGreekDebt http://t.co/nbjNAlg4WR
Words fail. Typical socialist attitude , take the money, blow it all, bitch you have to pay it back under the agreed terms, do a flounce and then shout for debt cancellation.
Jeeez we dodged a fecking howitzer shell in May we truly did.
Yes you should pay money back when you borrow it, but equally the lender has a responsibility not to lend money when they have doubts the debtor can pay it back. Lenders were happy to pour money into Greece knowing that other countries would bail them out. They deserve to take a haircut.
Wait, so if you are not sure if you can pay the money back on a credit card loan, then it's partly their fault you borrowed the money?
Yes. Credit card providers need to be more careful about the credit limits they extend to retail borrowers
So, if you lend money to somebody, and it turned out that they can't pay because they lied to you about their circumstances, you should say "fuck me, it's my fault for not doing the proper research. consider yourself absolved from the debt."
The subprime crisis was because banks lent to people who had no realistic chance of paying off their loans when the times were less good and they couldn't roll over their loans onto new introductory mortgage offers. That was said to be the fault of the banks making bad commercial decisions. The French and German banks likewise made bad commercial decisions. If taxpayers (Greek or otherwise) bail out banks making bad commercial decisions, why should they stop making them. Moral Hazard.
Instead of addressing the lack of competitiveness within the country, it then allowed them to borrow at low Euro interest rates.
Now they have to restructure to become more competitive but will be unable to borrow from private investors to fund the transition period. Once they get debt relief from Eurozone countries on existing loans, I suspect the EU (not just the Eurozone, so including the UK) will be obliged to advance more cash to help them.
Comments
It's been interesting to see all the furore over flying the confederate flag in South Carolina - I would suggest that that is the very birth pangs of the US splitting up over the next 20-30 years, when the US is usurped on the global stage by China / India during the first half of this century.
http://poll.forumresearch.com/data/Federal Horserace News Release (2015 06 23) Forum Research.pdf
http://iceagenow.info/2015/06/arctic-sea-ice-extent-as-high-for-this-date-in-a-decade/
Yet another thing that is unravelling by the day, as evidence quite literally accumulates to the contrary of everything they've been saying. The Arctic Ice Free by 2015, Mr Harrabin and his fellow followers proudly boasted on the BBC back in 2007. Would they now like to come on air and apologise for their ludicrous prediction? Do pigs fly?!!
Good night all, and good night AGW and the Eurozone.
Some people just aren't shaped for posing topless.
And why do the BBC title her "Ms"? Doesn't that mean she's divorced ... but at 20?
You can cede, and you can secede, but you can't supercede (it's "supersede")
"separate" has "a rat" in it
A "complicated" problem can be simplified: a "complex" problem can't
It was less than a year old, a beautiful top of the line Cadillac Coupe de Ville, with sumptuous leather seats, an 8.2 liter engine, and all in all a gorgeous car. It's the only GM car I've owned that I really liked.
I admire her all the more for that!
http://www.threehundredeight.com/
Top anecdotage that man.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/06/28/serbia-unveils-monument-to-gavrilo-princip-114-austro-hungarian-crown-prince/
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/28/london-the-city-that-ate-itself-rowan-moore
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIed9NXWsAAzuq2.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE4k76VjGdY
Instead of addressing the lack of competitiveness within the country, it then allowed them to borrow at low Euro interest rates.
Now they have to restructure to become more competitive but will be unable to borrow from private investors to fund the transition period. Once they get debt relief from Eurozone countries on existing loans, I suspect the EU (not just the Eurozone, so including the UK) will be obliged to advance more cash to help them.