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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris reminds us once again why the normal rules of politic

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    edited 2015 18
    kle4 said:

    Just seen this news:

    Major restoration of the Houses of Parliament without moving MPs and peers out would cost £5.7bn and take 32 years, a report says.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33184160

    Bloody hell! I'm not actually opposed to spending plenty of money restoring the building, and obviously without moving them out en masse it would take quite a long time (I think the longest I'd previously seen estimated was something like 20 years), but 32 years?

    I guess I'm reluctantly more in favour of the 6 year absence £3.5bn option in that case (as much as I do not like London, I don't like the idea of just putting parliament somewhere else).

    I hear there is a parliament building in Strasbourg which is currently significantly underused. An option for decant?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    kle4 said:

    Just seen this news:

    Major restoration of the Houses of Parliament without moving MPs and peers out would cost £5.7bn and take 32 years, a report says.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33184160

    Bloody hell! I'm not actually opposed to spending plenty of money restoring the building, and obviously without moving them out en masse it would take quite a long time (I think the longest I'd previously seen estimated was something like 20 years), but 32 years?

    I guess I'm reluctantly more in favour of the 6 year absence £3.5bn option in that case (as much as I do not like London, I don't like the idea of just putting parliament somewhere else).

    My first suggestion would be the London parliament building, go from there.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    kle4 said:

    Just seen this news:

    Major restoration of the Houses of Parliament without moving MPs and peers out would cost £5.7bn and take 32 years, a report says.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33184160

    Bloody hell! I'm not actually opposed to spending plenty of money restoring the building, and obviously without moving them out en masse it would take quite a long time (I think the longest I'd previously seen estimated was something like 20 years), but 32 years?

    I guess I'm reluctantly more in favour of the 6 year absence £3.5bn option in that case (as much as I do not like London, I don't like the idea of just putting parliament somewhere else).

    Great! What a money maker! Cities and towns could bid for the right to host Parliament for 6 (more likely at least 12) years during the restoration.

    You could make it like It's a Knock Out. Think of it - you could have Shepton Mallet playing the joker against Bishop Auckland.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,136
    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    On Greece. So the reports are from a German newspaper and do not give the conditions attached to any potential bailout extension or new cash.

    Won't know if there is an extension then until Maria Callas sings.

    Maria Callas died in 1977, so I could suggest a more recent demise, that of Demis Roussos who died last January.

    Of course there's always Nana Mouskouri, who is still extant, I am led to believe.. :)
    Or Yanni. But I was going for the opera and fat (even though Callas was not) lady sort of thing
    I tried to avoid thinking of Yanni at all costs - all those over starched flowing white shirts with huge cuffs on yet another interminable PBS special. :(
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,136
    Mr. B, host it in Leeds, and force politicians to be mauled by disgruntled Yorkshire audiences on a regular basis.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    On Greece. So the reports are from a German newspaper and do not give the conditions attached to any potential bailout extension or new cash.

    Won't know if there is an extension then until Maria Callas sings.

    Maria Callas died in 1977, so I could suggest a more recent demise, that of Demis Roussos who died last January.

    Of course there's always Nana Mouskouri, who is still extant, I am led to believe.. :)
    Or Yanni. But I was going for the opera and fat (even though Callas was not) lady sort of thing
    Montserrat Caballé would be a good bet if you want someone alive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,031
    edited 2015 18
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Just seen this news:

    Major restoration of the Houses of Parliament without moving MPs and peers out would cost £5.7bn and take 32 years, a report says.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33184160

    Bloody hell! I'm not actually opposed to spending plenty of money restoring the building, and obviously without moving them out en masse it would take quite a long time (I think the longest I'd previously seen estimated was something like 20 years), but 32 years?

    I guess I'm reluctantly more in favour of the 6 year absence £3.5bn option in that case (as much as I do not like London, I don't like the idea of just putting parliament somewhere else).

    I hear there is a parliament building in Strasbourg which is currently significantly underused. An option for decant?
    If we are staying in the EU, there are many who would argue it makes a perverse amount of sense to try that option, and better than its current wastefulness.

    Though looking at the details again, even with the need to play something like this very carefully, not even starting until 2020 seems unnecessary.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited 2015 18
    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    I wonder where Nicola Sturgeon thinks subsidies come from. Maybe it's "the government's money"?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    And still the fun continues over at Fruitcake central

    @GdnPolitics: Ukip deputy chair Suzanne Evans facing calls to quit over 'divisive Farage' claim http://t.co/w9NWGGhGpM
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Tim_B said:

    I wonder where Nicola Sturgeon thinks subsidies come from. Maybe it's "the government's money"?

    I guess she thinks they just gush out of the ground...

    @kevverage: The Independence White Paper was literally an *order of magnitude* out even with its low-end oil revenue forecast. http://t.co/gXtuRI5ByT
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Scotland First Minister @NicolaSturgeon writes to PM demanding re-think over "peverse" decision to scrap wind farm subsidies

    Given that these subsidies are one of the very few benefits Scotland gets from the National Infrastructure Plan (cost to Scotland over £3bn per annum, benefit less than £200m per annum), it is indeed perverse.

    Another own goal for Cameron.

    And terrible news for consumers facing even more high cost electric reliance on nuclear in future instead of cheap and getting cheaper wind power.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,031
    edited 2015 18
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Scotland First Minister @NicolaSturgeon writes to PM demanding re-think over "peverse" decision to scrap wind farm subsidies

    Yes, describing the decision of his government as perverse is bound to get him to work constructively to address issues. Though in fairness that is obviously not the point of such a tactic (I should say I don't have any view on the actual matter in question, but tactically it only seems to make sense if you don't care about changing minds, which is valid enough)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    The cost of the vast majority of the UKs generation infrastructure has never been paid for by consumers of electricity. The coal stations and previous generations of nuclear were all paid for from general taxation and only running costs used to price consumption.

    Whether it is coal, nuclear or wind, new capacity will have to be built. It is sensible to subsidise and promote by far the cheapest Marginal Cost option - and that is Wind.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, host it in Leeds, and force politicians to be mauled by disgruntled Yorkshire audiences on a regular basis.

    That took me right back to those hilarious fake Eddie Waring commentaries Graeme Garden used to do on "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again", particularly in their take off on Knock out.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    Or quote in a shorter form, from The Book of Genesis...Go forth and multiply.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    The operative word being "could"!
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Tim_B said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    I wonder where Nicola Sturgeon thinks subsidies come from. Maybe it's "the government's money"?
    It comes from the National Infrastructure Plan, to which Scotland pays over £3bn per annum and gets back less than £200m.

    Which the UK government then includes in Scotland's alleged Deficit when categorising it as a "black hole".
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited 2015 18
    RobD said:

    Dair said:

    Mr. Dair, I've always argued for the age to remain constant or increase.

    If you think it's nanny state, you must advocate all living people getting the vote regardless of age. If it's just a question of where you draw the cut-off line, then you and I agree on the principle and simply disagree on the detail.

    Most likely we do.

    The best solution would be to throw the whole decision over all ages of consent/majority/contract/behaviour to technocrats and base it on some evidence based science. But the chances of that happening are probable as slim as Labour winning in 2020.
    They may give an awkward answer, like there is no set age given people's different personalities, or that one sex can vote a year before the other!
    Interesting one. I can see a strong argument for having a higher driving age for teenage boys than girls. (Even as a human rights issue, there's something to be said for protecting the potential victims of crashes... which often means protecting people from themselves.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,031
    I'm sure earlier today someone commented on that clip of Martin Schultz saying Britain belonging to the EU - one assumes not quite what he meant - but it does make me think of a leaflet from the EU I saw recently describing Brussels as the Capital of Europe. Not in quotations or 'Europe's capital' tm or 'the EU's capital'
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Just seen this news:

    Major restoration of the Houses of Parliament without moving MPs and peers out would cost £5.7bn and take 32 years, a report says.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33184160

    Bloody hell! I'm not actually opposed to spending plenty of money restoring the building, and obviously without moving them out en masse it would take quite a long time (I think the longest I'd previously seen estimated was something like 20 years), but 32 years?

    I guess I'm reluctantly more in favour of the 6 year absence £3.5bn option in that case (as much as I do not like London, I don't like the idea of just putting parliament somewhere else).

    I hear there is a parliament building in Strasbourg which is currently significantly underused. An option for decant?
    If we are staying in the EU, there are many who would argue it makes a perverse amount of sense to try that option, and better than its current wastefulness.

    Though looking at the details again, even with the need to play something like this very carefully, not even starting until 2020 seems unnecessary.
    If they do go for the full decant, there was some worry there may actually not be enough labour in the workforce who possess the necessary skills. Must admit I was a tad skeptical about this, but what do I know!
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, host it in Leeds, and force politicians to be mauled by disgruntled Yorkshire audiences on a regular basis.

    That took me right back to those hilarious fake Eddie Waring commentaries Graeme Garden used to do on "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again", particularly in their take off on Knock out.
    Wasn't that "I'm Sorry I haven't a Clue" described as the antidote to panel games.
    Even funnier was/is the double act with Barry Cryer as "Hamish and Dougal"
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited 2015 18
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    The cost of the vast majority of the UKs generation infrastructure has never been paid for by consumers of electricity. The coal stations and previous generations of nuclear were all paid for from general taxation and only running costs used to price consumption.

    Whether it is coal, nuclear or wind, new capacity will have to be built. It is sensible to subsidise and promote by far the cheapest Marginal Cost option - and that is Wind.
    That was then. There's just not enough money for that sort of thing any more. Unless it's a new railway into London, obviously.

    The marginal cost of nuclear is only a teeny bit higher, and you can have then even when there is no wind.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    edited 2015 18
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Scotland First Minister @NicolaSturgeon writes to PM demanding re-think over "peverse" decision to scrap wind farm subsidies

    Given that these subsidies are one of the very few benefits Scotland gets from the National Infrastructure Plan (cost to Scotland over £3bn per annum, benefit less than £200m per annum), it is indeed perverse.

    Another own goal for Cameron.

    And terrible news for consumers facing even more high cost electric reliance on nuclear in future instead of cheap and getting cheaper wind power.
    If the subsidies are costing Scotland net £2.8bn, why is it an own goal for him to scrap them?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dair said:

    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    LOL

    I see you have the press release from Zoomer central.

    Tell us the one about VAT again. It was a belter.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, host it in Leeds, and force politicians to be mauled by disgruntled Yorkshire audiences on a regular basis.

    That took me right back to those hilarious fake Eddie Waring commentaries Graeme Garden used to do on "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again", particularly in their take off on Knock out.
    Jerusalem are playing their joker.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,124
    edited 2015 18
    Danny M Yougov on Sunday had Burnham ahead with Labour and all voters followed by Cooper, Kendall behind Corbyn with Labour voters, we shall see on Sunday if anything has changed

    Labour voters

    Burnham 21%
    Cooper 12%
    Kendall 5%
    Corbyn 8%

    All voters

    Burnham 10%
    Cooper 7%
    Kendall 4%
    Corbyn 4%

    We shall see if Sunday post debate has been any change


    https://yougov.co.uk/publicopinion/archive/?page=2
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    The cost of the vast majority of the UKs generation infrastructure has never been paid for by consumers of electricity. The coal stations and previous generations of nuclear were all paid for from general taxation and only running costs used to price consumption.

    Whether it is coal, nuclear or wind, new capacity will have to be built. It is sensible to subsidise and promote by far the cheapest Marginal Cost option - and that is Wind.
    Your premise only works if 'consumers of electricity'' and contributors to 'general taxation' are mutually exclusive.

    Putting my pedant hat on, the general term for people who don't 'get' mathematics is 'innumerate'.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2015 18
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Scotland First Minister @NicolaSturgeon writes to PM demanding re-think over "peverse" decision to scrap wind farm subsidies

    Oh dear, all her chums whining about the loss in profits for manufacturing heavily subsidised McWindymills and power, on the hour or two a day they're actually generating.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Tim_B said:

    Putting my pedant hat on, the general term for people who don't 'get' mathematics is 'innumerate'.

    And the Scottish term is Nationalist
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,124
    Boris remains the Tories best chance in my view, Osborne is best behind the scenes, but Boris' best chance would have come from a Tory defeat, in power Osborne is the favourite
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Scott_P said:

    Tim_B said:

    Putting my pedant hat on, the general term for people who don't 'get' mathematics is 'innumerate'.

    And the Scottish term is Nationalist
    I thought it was Loyalist? (Is 'turnipist' even a word?)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Disraeli said:

    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, host it in Leeds, and force politicians to be mauled by disgruntled Yorkshire audiences on a regular basis.

    That took me right back to those hilarious fake Eddie Waring commentaries Graeme Garden used to do on "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again", particularly in their take off on Knock out.
    Wasn't that "I'm Sorry I haven't a Clue" described as the antidote to panel games.
    Even funnier was/is the double act with Barry Cryer as "Hamish and Dougal"
    Haven't a clue came after ISIRTA finished.

    My favorite was when they would read UPC codes and had to guess the product - thick black, thick black, thin black etc

    The answer always seemed to be either tampons or oven ready badger.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    RobD said:

    (Is 'turnipist' even a word?)

    Tumshie is the preferred zoomer term these days. None of this Anglicised nonsense
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Tim_B said:

    Putting my pedant hat on, the general term for people who don't 'get' mathematics is 'innumerate'.

    And the Scottish term is Nationalist
    I thought it was Loyalist? (Is 'turnipist' even a word?)
    Natamatician?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,124
    edited 2015 18
    City AM poll tonight has Burnham ahead on 23% with Labour voters, Cooper on 20%, Kendall on 11% and Corbyn on 9%. With all voters Burnham on 15%, Cooper on 14%, Kendall on 11%, Corbyn on 5%
    http://www.cityam.com/218302/labour-leadership-race-poll-shows-burnham-slight-favourite-6-pc-party-supporters-back-fake
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    The cost of the vast majority of the UKs generation infrastructure has never been paid for by consumers of electricity. The coal stations and previous generations of nuclear were all paid for from general taxation and only running costs used to price consumption.

    Whether it is coal, nuclear or wind, new capacity will have to be built. It is sensible to subsidise and promote by far the cheapest Marginal Cost option - and that is Wind.
    I think it makes sense to construct whatever gives the cheapest /kWhr costs over the entire lifetime of the project (i.e. including construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning). Pricing should be based on marginal costs, but investment decisions not.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Anorak said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    The cost of the vast majority of the UKs generation infrastructure has never been paid for by consumers of electricity. The coal stations and previous generations of nuclear were all paid for from general taxation and only running costs used to price consumption.

    Whether it is coal, nuclear or wind, new capacity will have to be built. It is sensible to subsidise and promote by far the cheapest Marginal Cost option - and that is Wind.
    That was then. There's just not enough money for that sort of thing any more. Unless it's a new railway into London, obviously.

    The marginal cost of nuclear is only a teeny bit higher, and you can have then even when there is no wind.
    The problem with nuclear (regardless of safety which is generally overplayed but in small landmass countries should be considered) is that the Decommissioning costs more than double the capital outlay.

    The true solution (and it is expensive short term) is microgeneration backed up with some more pumped storage and part-time gas generation. Smart countries would be filling up with things like this

    http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2015/01/371076,xcitefun-wind-solar-lights-3.jpg

    But sensible, long term decisions tend to be an alien concept in the UK.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    LOL

    I see you have the press release from Zoomer central.

    Tell us the one about VAT again. It was a belter.
    I bet he's an RG3 fan :)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    Looks like the reports of a deal for Greece were false according to Sky.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    RobD said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Scotland First Minister @NicolaSturgeon writes to PM demanding re-think over "peverse" decision to scrap wind farm subsidies

    Given that these subsidies are one of the very few benefits Scotland gets from the National Infrastructure Plan (cost to Scotland over £3bn per annum, benefit less than £200m per annum), it is indeed perverse.

    Another own goal for Cameron.

    And terrible news for consumers facing even more high cost electric reliance on nuclear in future instead of cheap and getting cheaper wind power.
    If the subsidies are costing Scotland net £2.8bn, why is it an own goal for him to scrap them?
    The National Infrastructure Plan costs Scotland £3bn. This is substantially more than wind subsidies. Wind subsidies are one of the very few ways Scotland gets even than shabby £200m back.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @robindbrant: In an internal e mail seen by the BBC @UKIP press officers have been ordered to severe contact with Suzanne Evans.

    @robindbrant: The e mail also instructs them to refuse any media bids for her and says 'she is not to be offered as an official @UKIP spokesman'.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Looks like the reports of a deal for Greece were false according to Sky.

    @afneil: As expected, euro finance ministers in Luxembourg do nothing to resolve Greek crisis. Short meeting. € falling, £ close to €1.40
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited 2015 18
    Dair said:

    Anorak said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, Cameron should tell her to bugger off.

    I suspect that may form the core of any repsonse

    @BBCNormanS: Scot First Minister @NicolaSturgeon warns ending wind farm subsidy cd cost consumers up to £3 billion

    The SNP and sums; what are the chances...
    They have their sums right.

    As usually you are numerically illiterate.

    The cost of the vast majority of the UKs generation infrastructure has never been paid for by consumers of electricity. The coal stations and previous generations of nuclear were all paid for from general taxation and only running costs used to price consumption.

    Whether it is coal, nuclear or wind, new capacity will have to be built. It is sensible to subsidise and promote by far the cheapest Marginal Cost option - and that is Wind.
    That was then. There's just not enough money for that sort of thing any more. Unless it's a new railway into London, obviously.

    The marginal cost of nuclear is only a teeny bit higher, and you can have then even when there is no wind.
    The problem with nuclear (regardless of safety which is generally overplayed but in small landmass countries should be considered) is that the Decommissioning costs more than double the capital outlay.

    The true solution (and it is expensive short term) is microgeneration backed up with some more pumped storage and part-time gas generation. Smart countries would be filling up with things like this

    http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2015/01/371076,xcitefun-wind-solar-lights-3.jpg

    But sensible, long term decisions tend to be an alien concept in the UK.
    Decommissioning costs of first generation plants, probably. New builds? Not so much.

    Anyway, according to you, costs borne by the taxpayer are an irrelevance as all we need to do is look at the marginal cost. Make your mind up, old bean.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @robindbrant: internal @UKIP email seen by BBC from senior fig ordering @SuzanneEvans1 frozen out after 'very divisive' comments http://t.co/QDMsIKecLI
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Anorak said:

    Dair said:

    The problem with nuclear (regardless of safety which is generally overplayed but in small landmass countries should be considered) is that the Decommissioning costs more than double the capital outlay.

    The true solution (and it is expensive short term) is microgeneration backed up with some more pumped storage and part-time gas generation. Smart countries would be filling up with things like this

    http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2015/01/371076,xcitefun-wind-solar-lights-3.jpg

    But sensible, long term decisions tend to be an alien concept in the UK.

    Decommissioning costs of first generation plants, probably. New builds? Not so much.

    Anyway, according to you, costs borne by the taxpayer are an irrelevance as all we need to do is look at the marginal cost. Make your mind up, old bean.
    No, they do need considered.

    The problem is that the press (and the anti-Wind morons) create a misconception by calling the cost of building turbines included in electricity bills as a "Green Tax". It is not a green tax, it is a new way of pricing the cost of infrastructure and artificially makes wind look more expensive than Coal where the infrastructure costs are not on the bill *at all*.

    I have absolutely no problem with changing to a price structure where investment is in the bill. Just not misrepresenting it.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited 2015 18
    Scott_P said:

    @robindbrant: internal @UKIP email seen by BBC from senior fig ordering @SuzanneEvans1 frozen out after 'very divisive' comments http://t.co/QDMsIKecLI

    "After speaking to Nigel" - good to see them dispel any notion that they are an autocracy.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Dair said:

    RobD said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Scotland First Minister @NicolaSturgeon writes to PM demanding re-think over "peverse" decision to scrap wind farm subsidies

    Given that these subsidies are one of the very few benefits Scotland gets from the National Infrastructure Plan (cost to Scotland over £3bn per annum, benefit less than £200m per annum), it is indeed perverse.

    Another own goal for Cameron.

    And terrible news for consumers facing even more high cost electric reliance on nuclear in future instead of cheap and getting cheaper wind power.
    If the subsidies are costing Scotland net £2.8bn, why is it an own goal for him to scrap them?
    The National Infrastructure Plan costs Scotland £3bn. This is substantially more than wind subsidies. Wind subsidies are one of the very few ways Scotland gets even than shabby £200m back.
    This whole energy subsidy nonsense is completely distorting the market. If I lease a Nissan Leaf for 2 years the state gives me a $5000 tax credit. As leasing it for 2 years is less than that, I could actually make money by leasing one. But the car is so impractical that it is pointless. Its range is less than a daily commute in this part of the world.

    Electric cars have no future, their carbon footprint is awful thanks to the battery manufacturing process, and they are impractical - why waste tax payers money subsidizing them?

    The future of cars is the Honda Clarity and its next generation...

    http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Tim_B said:

    I could actually make money by leasing one. But the car is so impractical that it is pointless. Its range is less than a daily commute in this part of the world.

    So lease it and leave it in the garage for 2 years. And no deductible for wear and tear
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited 2015 18
    Dair said:

    Anorak said:

    Dair said:

    The problem with nuclear (regardless of safety which is generally overplayed but in small landmass countries should be considered) is that the Decommissioning costs more than double the capital outlay.

    The true solution (and it is expensive short term) is microgeneration backed up with some more pumped storage and part-time gas generation. Smart countries would be filling up with things like this

    http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2015/01/371076,xcitefun-wind-solar-lights-3.jpg

    But sensible, long term decisions tend to be an alien concept in the UK.

    Decommissioning costs of first generation plants, probably. New builds? Not so much.

    Anyway, according to you, costs borne by the taxpayer are an irrelevance as all we need to do is look at the marginal cost. Make your mind up, old bean.
    No, they do need considered.

    The problem is that the press (and the anti-Wind morons) create a misconception by calling the cost of building turbines included in electricity bills as a "Green Tax". It is not a green tax, it is a new way of pricing the cost of infrastructure and artificially makes wind look more expensive than Coal where the infrastructure costs are not on the bill *at all*.

    I have absolutely no problem with changing to a price structure where investment is in the bill. Just not misrepresenting it.
    Are we on coal now? Ok. The long-term costs of coal are all in the cost of fuel and annual running of the plant. Build and decommissioning costs are small beer in comparison.
    Comparing coal and wind by including wind turbine initial investment but not coal station initial investment is, I agree, a bit naughty and a bit innaccurate. Still, it's a quibble at best and would not change the overall pitcure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,031
    With all this Waterloo talk around today, it made me think of something I was told recently, that Napoleon IV died fighting for the British in the Anglo-Zulu war. Strange turns families can take.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    kle4 said:

    With all this Waterloo talk around today, it made me think of something I was told recently, that Napoleon IV died fighting for the British in the Anglo-Zulu war. Strange turns families can take.

    Indeed - Napoleon XIV had a hit in the 60s with "They're coming to take me away"
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Shame, quite enjoyed Evans when she was on Daily Poltiics, and especially This Week. I hope they continue to have her on like they do with Green for the LDs.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Scott_P said:

    Tim_B said:

    I could actually make money by leasing one. But the car is so impractical that it is pointless. Its range is less than a daily commute in this part of the world.

    So lease it and leave it in the garage for 2 years. And no deductible for wear and tear
    Taking part would just encourage more of this nonsense.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    It seems to me that both the Greeks and the Yerpeans use the threat of Grexit against each other with equal abandon and equal insincerity, since Grexit would be equally disastrous for either.

    It has always and still seems like there'll be a managed default in which pretty much everything gets written off. I struggle to identify anyone credible saying Grexit is either necessary or a good idea. It seems to come mainly from Kippers on the DT website, who'd like it to happen because it would damage the EU, but who have also spent the last 5 or 10 years thinking property and equities were a sell and gold was a buy.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Tim_B said:

    Putting my pedant hat on, the general term for people who don't 'get' mathematics is 'innumerate'.

    And the Scottish term is Nationalist
    I thought it was Loyalist? (Is 'turnipist' even a word?)
    Natamatician?
    Or, in Spanish, nadamatician
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Tim_B said:

    This whole energy subsidy nonsense is completely distorting the market. If I lease a Nissan Leaf for 2 years the state gives me a $5000 tax credit. As leasing it for 2 years is less than that, I could actually make money by leasing one. But the car is so impractical that it is pointless. Its range is less than a daily commute in this part of the world.

    Electric cars have no future, their carbon footprint is awful thanks to the battery manufacturing process, and they are impractical - why waste tax payers money subsidizing them?

    The future of cars is the Honda Clarity and its next generation...

    http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

    The point of the subsidy is to switch consumption which would not shift due to market intransigence. This would exist regardless and clearly does exist in terms of the automotive market as most people still burn hydrocarbons to get about.

    The problem is not one of market interference but one of political incompetence leading to subsidising the dead end of stored electrical power instead of the obvious solution in Hydrogen Fuel Cells.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    I struggle to identify anyone credible saying Grexit is either necessary or a good idea.

    Does the chief economist at Berenberg count as credible?
    http://www.cityam.com/218224/its-central-bank-warns-painful-euro-exit-would-greek-default-necessarily-lead-grexit

  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    edited 2015 18
    Anorak said:

    I struggle to identify anyone credible saying Grexit is either necessary or a good idea.

    Does the chief economist at Berenberg count as credible?
    http://www.cityam.com/218224/its-central-bank-warns-painful-euro-exit-would-greek-default-necessarily-lead-grexit

    That scenario is what I reckon will not happen. Greece will indeed fail to pay the money at some point, but this will be by prior arrangement, i.e. a managed default.

    If European politicians are asked to choose between writing off a few billion, and writing off ever-closer union by allowing default and Grexit, I would think they would choose the former.

    Greece is 2% of the EU economy. Not exactly a major component. The debts are unpayable by Greece but not massive in the light of the EU as a whole.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,153
    I haven't read what Dr Holger Schmedling has written re Grexit, but he is certainly a credible economist.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Does anyone know how much these 3 second-hand water cannon the Mayor bought off Anglea Merkl are costing?
    I guess they are just rusting-up somewhere.
  • frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    edited 2015 18
    Tim_B said:

    kle4 said:

    With all this Waterloo talk around today, it made me think of something I was told recently, that Napoleon IV died fighting for the British in the Anglo-Zulu war. Strange turns families can take.

    Indeed - Napoleon XIV had a hit in the 60s with "They're coming to take me away"
    It is hard to decide which is the most bizarre: the Prince Imperial being killed in Zululand whilst serving with the British army, or him being buried in Chislehurst.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,874
    The Danish exit poll projects 89 seats for the centre-right, 86 for the centre-left.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Has the Pope gone completely bonkers..
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited 2015 18
    Sean_F said:

    The Danish exit poll projects 89 seats for the centre-right, 86 for the centre-left.

    One poll did. Over on the other channel they called it for the centre left?
    DR's rival TV2 has called the election for Helle Thorning-Schmidt and her allies, giving them 87 Danish seats compared to 88 for the opposition, which it predicts is enough to give her another term once seats from Greenland and the Faroe Islands are added.
    http://www.thelocal.dk/20150618/live-denmark-goes-to-the-polls
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Schmieding is a eurofanatic - anything he says on euro-related issues needs to be taken with a heavy pinch of salt
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 18
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Scott_P said:

    @robindbrant: internal @UKIP email seen by BBC from senior fig ordering @SuzanneEvans1 frozen out after 'very divisive' comments http://t.co/QDMsIKecLI

    Up there with the all time stupidest political decisions. To throw away their best presenter and the person who produced a coherent manifesto. Madness. I hope after a break, the Conservatives are able to attract her back.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Some nice one-liners coming out of the EU/IMF presser at the moment:

    "requires politicians who are prepared to tell the truth to their people” Dijsselbloem

    Lagarde: Deal with Greece needs dialogue with "adults in the room"
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Anorak said:

    I struggle to identify anyone credible saying Grexit is either necessary or a good idea.

    Does the chief economist at Berenberg count as credible?
    http://www.cityam.com/218224/its-central-bank-warns-painful-euro-exit-would-greek-default-necessarily-lead-grexit

    That scenario is what I reckon will not happen. Greece will indeed fail to pay the money at some point, but this will be by prior arrangement, i.e. a managed default.

    If European politicians are asked to choose between writing off a few billion, and writing off ever-closer union by allowing default and Grexit, I would think they would choose the former.

    Greece is 2% of the EU economy. Not exactly a major component. The debts are unpayable by Greece but not massive in the light of the EU as a whole.
    If that were the choice, I might agree with you. But you are forgetting the moral hazard that would create vis-a-vis the rest of the PIIGS. That raises the cost beyond the affordable, no matter one's wishes re ever closer union.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    AndyJS said:
    Good news for Faroese and Greenlander pork futures.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    AndyJS said:
    How's you Danish Andy?

    I think I know what the Danish "exit poll" means, though...
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited 2015 18
    Nice BBC story about Scots at Waterloo and the first-hand accounts they left of the battle. Plus delightful, sub-Wilfred-Owen poetry. All left me wondering the type of question the PB-brainhive might be good at:

    What are the earliest battles we have "everyman" eye-witnesses for? We have accounts of the Battle of Hastings, but nowt from the point of view of Edric The English Archer. Poor sod wouldn't have been literate. By the Napoleonic Wars, enough soldiers and sailors could read and write that some scum-of-the-Earth's scribblings passed down to us. (Related, but different echelons: sure I read that when the Queen Mum was very young, some of the oldest people around the royal court could recount to her how splendid the Waterloo victory ball was. Is't true? Marvellous if so. Withered hands of history slip away from our tender, forgetful grip, etc.)

    Moreover, from which Great Events (conflicts, revolutions, riots, disasters, technological or sporting firsts) are eyewitness accounts not just written, but recorded? TFOAN has some interesting pages on last survivors of historical events, last surviving European veterans by war, and a rather imposing list for all conflicts.

    Often the final survivors played but peripheral roles, may never have reached an actual battlefield or even fired a shot in anger if they did. Yet it's interesting there were survivors of the French Revolution about in the 1880s, and of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812 to the turn of the century. The Texas Revolution and Bear Flag Revolt a few years later still. For comparison, the oldest surviving phonographs basically date from the 1880s (with the odd earlier recordings on tinfoil or phonautograph being exceptionally difficult to replay), but I doubt a "grunt's-eye-view of oral history" was one of the top priorities for the earliest recordists.

    Going further, for what events do we have first-hand testimony on-screen (film or TV footage)? The last survivors of the Crimean War and War of Italian Unification were still around in the 1930s. The Zulu War, The Paris Commune, Franco-Prussian War and the US Civil War can take us through to the 40s and 50s. The Boer War, in theory, up to 1993. I've certainly seen and been very moved by TV interviews with WWI survivors and Russian Revolutionaries, and heard audio of US Civil War vets (and former slaves). Just how far back can we go?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Has the Pope gone completely bonkers..

    Yes
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Apparently a suspect has been arrested in the Charleston church killing.

    http://fox59.com/2015/06/18/dylann-storm-roof-arrested-in-north-carolina-according-to-report/
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    Suzanne Evans is the best thing UKIP has going for it. Which means she is being forced out by the Faragists.

    What do the PB Kippers have to say on this?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 18

    AndyJS said:
    How's you Danish Andy?

    I think I know what the Danish "exit poll" means, though...
    Not particularly good unfortunately. Plenty of graphics to look at though.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited 2015 18
    Daniel Hannan, the British Conservative MEP who was in Denmark on Wednesday to help the campaign had congratulated the [eurosceptic] Danish People's Party on its result. "I'm delighted by the advance of our sister party, the Danish People's Party, as well as of the eurosceptic Liberal Alliance," he told The Local by text message. "Danes plainly remembered who wanted them to join the euro and who kept them out."
    Look set to go from 12% to 17-18%.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    kle4 said:

    With all this Waterloo talk around today, it made me think of something I was told recently, that Napoleon IV died fighting for the British in the Anglo-Zulu war. Strange turns families can take.

    Indeed - Napoleon XIV had a hit in the 60s with "They're coming to take me away"
    It is hard to decide which is the most bizarre: the Prince Imperial being killed in Zululand whilst serving with the British army, or him being buried in Chislehurst.

    The Prince had already been to Zululand, but possibly had not yet visited Chislehurst?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I wasn't aware the DPP was a sister party of the Tories:

    http://www.thelocal.dk/20150618/live-denmark-goes-to-the-polls

    "20.27pm Daniel Hannan, the British Conservative MEP who was in Denmark on Wednesday to help the
    campaign had congratulated the Danish People's Party on its result. "I'm delighted by the advance of our sister party, the Danish People's Party, as well as of the eurosceptic Liberal Alliance," he told The Local by text message. "Danes plainly remembered who wanted them to join the euro and who kept them out.""
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    Suzanne Evans is the best thing UKIP has going for it. Which means she is being forced out by the Faragists.

    What do the PB Kippers have to say on this?

    Obviosuly I am not one of them but isn't Faragist just a little close to Falangist? Unflattering.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    Suzanne Evans is the best thing UKIP has going for it. Which means she is being forced out by the Faragists.

    What do the PB Kippers have to say on this?

    I think even they now realise that Nige has killed the Kipper movement stone dead.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:
    How's you Danish Andy?

    I think I know what the Danish "exit poll" means, though...
    Not particularly good unfortunately. Plenty of graphics to look at though.
    Just so long as they bring home the bacon......
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    AndyJS said:

    I wasn't aware the DPP was a sister party of the Tories:

    http://www.thelocal.dk/20150618/live-denmark-goes-to-the-polls

    "20.27pm Daniel Hannan, the British Conservative MEP who was in Denmark on Wednesday to help the
    campaign had congratulated the Danish People's Party on its result. "I'm delighted by the advance of our sister party, the Danish People's Party, as well as of the eurosceptic Liberal Alliance," he told The Local by text message. "Danes plainly remembered who wanted them to join the euro and who kept them out.""

    Sits with them in the ECR grouping (though as a member of MELD, no AECR like the Tories).
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited 2015 18
    Tim_B said:

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:
    How's you Danish Andy?

    I think I know what the Danish "exit poll" means, though...
    Not particularly good unfortunately. Plenty of graphics to look at though.
    Just so long as they bring home the bacon......
    This one's going to be close! Glad I only have 50p on it...

    For those following who are not regulars to the Danish market, remember Greenland and the Faroes are not officially committed to the red camp, but are widely expected to agree a late deal.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    @MyBurningEars N A M Roger's account of The Georgian Navy which covered the 18th Century suggested that printed recall notices were used, and enough of the crew were able to read them. Such notices were a comparatively effective way of communication.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    dr_spyn said:

    @MyBurningEars N A M Roger's account of The Georgian Navy which covered the 18th Century suggested that printed recall notices were used, and enough of the crew were able to read them. Such notices were a comparatively effective way of communication.

    That's very interesting. Wonder if any of them wrote up their memoirs. By the 19th century there's certainly some interesting material (not just from the navy, but also e.g. on whaling).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,236

    (snip)
    Moreover, from which Great Events (conflicts, revolutions, riots, disasters, technological or sporting firsts) are eyewitness accounts not just written, but recorded? TFOAN has some interesting pages on last survivors of historical events, last surviving European veterans by war, and a rather imposing list for all conflicts.

    Often the final survivors played but peripheral roles, may never have reached an actual battlefield or even fired a shot in anger if they did. Yet it's interesting there were survivors of the French Revolution about in the 1880s, and of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812 to the turn of the century. The Texas Revolution and Bear Flag Revolt a few years later still. For comparison, the oldest surviving phonographs basically date from the 1880s (with the odd earlier recordings on tinfoil or phonautograph being exceptionally difficult to replay), but I doubt a "grunt's-eye-view of oral history" was one of the top priorities for the earliest recordists.

    Going further, for what events do we have first-hand testimony on-screen (film or TV footage)? The last survivors of the Crimean War and War of Italian Unification were still around in the 1930s. The Zulu War, The Paris Commune, Franco-Prussian War and the US Civil War can take us through to the 40s and 50s. The Boer War, in theory, up to 1993. I've certainly seen and been very moved by TV interviews with WWI survivors and Russian Revolutionaries, and heard audio of US Civil War vets (and former slaves). Just how far back can we go?

    Interesting questions. When it comes to images, what about sketches down by everyday soldiers in the pre-photography era, or trench-art style goods (e.g. a building in Southampton has graffiti from when French prisoners were held within it).

    As an aside, there's a famous TV segment with a person who was in the theatre when Lincoln was shot. I think Plato linked to it once.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Suzanne Evans seems very talented. The Conservatives should take her in if UKIP don't appreciate her abilities.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,236

    Scott_P said:

    @robindbrant: internal @UKIP email seen by BBC from senior fig ordering @SuzanneEvans1 frozen out after 'very divisive' comments http://t.co/QDMsIKecLI

    Up there with the all time stupidest political decisions. To throw away their best presenter and the person who produced a coherent manifesto. Madness. I hope after a break, the Conservatives are able to attract her back.
    I only caught a few minutes of the DP interview earlier, and she was quite good but, perhaps, a little too forthrightly truthful in answers to questions.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651



    Interesting questions. When it comes to images, what about sketches down by everyday soldiers in the pre-photography era, or trench-art style goods (e.g. a building in Southampton has graffiti from when French prisoners were held within it).

    As an aside, there's a famous TV segment with a person who was in the theatre when Lincoln was shot. I think Plato linked to it once.

    In terms of physical artefacts, I understand (in the broadest sense, and fuelled only by occasional subjection to antique-porn TV) that French POWs in England made a lot of crafts-stuff to sell to the locals (model ships and so on), many of which survive.

    There is medieval graffiti in many a church, and some cracking stuff at the Tower of London
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 18
    New Danish projection puts blue bloc on 92 compared to 83 for the red bloc. Another victory for Cameron if so.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Dair said:

    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    Suzanne Evans is the best thing UKIP has going for it. Which means she is being forced out by the Faragists.

    What do the PB Kippers have to say on this?

    I think even they now realise that Nige has killed the Kipper movement stone dead.
    Careful now! These "stone dead" type predictions can backfire. :-)

    In 1995, Robertson said that "Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead" while he was Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland. (wikipedia)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,236



    Interesting questions. When it comes to images, what about sketches down by everyday soldiers in the pre-photography era, or trench-art style goods (e.g. a building in Southampton has graffiti from when French prisoners were held within it).

    As an aside, there's a famous TV segment with a person who was in the theatre when Lincoln was shot. I think Plato linked to it once.

    In terms of physical artefacts, I understand (in the broadest sense, and fuelled only by occasional subjection to antique-porn TV) that French POWs in England made a lot of crafts-stuff to sell to the locals (model ships and so on), many of which survive.

    There is medieval graffiti in many a church, and some cracking stuff at the Tower of London
    The graffiti on the glass panels of Croick church in Scotland is heartbreaking, if you ever get a chance to see it (or camp in the graveyard, as I did, without knowing that I was far from the first to have been forced to sleep there).

    http://www.croickchurch.com/churchatcroick.htm
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651


    As an aside, there's a famous TV segment with a person who was in the theatre when Lincoln was shot. I think Plato linked to it once.

    Got it, it's Samuel J. Seymour - and here's the youtube clip. Don't think they give out prizes like that anymore!

    And here's the newspaper cutting which the TV researchers had picked up on.

    Sadly as a witness he couldn't remember much about the incident ... except that he was very concerned for the health of Booth, who had jumped off the balcony and hurt his leg. He hadn't realised that the president had been shot.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302

    dr_spyn said:

    @MyBurningEars N A M Roger's account of The Georgian Navy which covered the 18th Century suggested that printed recall notices were used, and enough of the crew were able to read them. Such notices were a comparatively effective way of communication.

    That's very interesting. Wonder if any of them wrote up their memoirs. By the 19th century there's certainly some interesting material (not just from the navy, but also e.g. on whaling).
    I'll cross check it at some point this evening.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Wooden-World-Anatomy-Georgian/dp/0393314693
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 18
    Danish TV putting the DPP on 34% in Tinglev, up 20 points on the last election.

    https://twitter.com/ssoendergaard/status/611610334172971008
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