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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Survation’s ballot paper voting responses raise questions a

SystemSystem Posts: 12,217
edited May 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Survation’s ballot paper voting responses raise questions about incumbency boosts on which the Tories are relying so much

In its latest poll for the Mail on Sunday Survation added a new dimension – a voting question based on the precise ballot paper that each of the 2100 people sampled will actually fill in on Thursday or have already done so with postal votes.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited May 2015
    First
    Twitter
    Dan Hodges @DPJHodges · May 2
    Some very upbeat Tory candidates out there this evening.

    "The changes between the two voting questions are shown in the chart above and have the Tories doing worst while the LDs doing better. No surprise about the latter but a worry for the former."

    Considering where both parties are in the polls, and also adding in the personal polling of their leaders, why no surprise at the Libdems doing better than their Conservative counter parts when in comes to incumbency? If anything, the points I have raised should be a worry when rushing to interpret this new polling.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    What's the MOE on this poll?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    This is a great thing to be doing but incumbency bonuses are a core feature of elections everywhere. If the polling can't see it I'd be inclined to doubt the polling.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    edited May 2015
    If the data come from the country as a whole, then the number of incumbents is also important, isn´t it?

    If Lab and Con have approximately five times as many MPs as the Lib Dems, then doesn´t it mean that the Lib Dem have to be scaled up? In fact, the Lib Dem incumbents are doing five times as well?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    So Tories keep their YG lead - despite the incumbency effect :)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    This is a great thing to be doing but incumbency bonuses are a core feature of elections everywhere. If the polling can't see it I'd be inclined to doubt the polling.

    There seems some evidence that the Conservatives are outperforming in Con/Lab marginals. First time incumbency seems the likeliest explanation.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I wonder if Today (R4 08.35) will ask Ed about his #EdStone.......

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ssnfy
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    With regard to London you also have to wonder how many of the 68% Labour voters are even on the register. It may limit the number of Labour gains although no doubt incumbency will ensure the LDs are 'winning everywhere' :)
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    I wonder if Today (R4 08.35) will ask Ed about his #EdStone.......

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ssnfy

    It's mentioned here very briefly and laughed off before bringing all the other props into play by any other leader stating with Harold Wilson. Great damage limitation by the BBC and impressive even by their standards.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32575131


  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Meanwhile you may end up with the candidate in your area that no one voted for....

    "Thousands of disillusioned voters across the country are pledging to trade their votes with other people using swapping websites. Joe Tidy reports."

    http://news.sky.com/video/1477184/thousands-planning-to-vote-swap
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Moses_ said:

    Meanwhile you may end up with the candidate in your area that no one voted for....

    "Thousands of disillusioned voters across the country are pledging to trade their votes with other people using swapping websites. Joe Tidy reports."

    http://news.sky.com/video/1477184/thousands-planning-to-vote-swap

    This is a disgrace and should be illegal. It's certainly not ethical. Why should I have my local MP elected by random people who have never even visited my constituency?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    GeoffM said:

    Moses_ said:

    Meanwhile you may end up with the candidate in your area that no one voted for....

    "Thousands of disillusioned voters across the country are pledging to trade their votes with other people using swapping websites. Joe Tidy reports."

    http://news.sky.com/video/1477184/thousands-planning-to-vote-swap

    This is a disgrace and should be illegal. It's certainly not ethical. Why should I have my local MP elected by random people who have never even visited my constituency?
    I agree and where it's unlikely to effect most I suspect that marginals could be held by party activists using their vote to protect say a senior party member from losing their seat. Good organisation could easily produce a few thousand changes.

    It all sounds very soviet.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    IN SPIN the SNP, UKIP and the LDs , all have dropped a tad. SNP were 48 - 50, now 46.5 - 48.5.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Moses_ said:

    Meanwhile you may end up with the candidate in your area that no one voted for....

    "Thousands of disillusioned voters across the country are pledging to trade their votes with other people using swapping websites. Joe Tidy reports."

    http://news.sky.com/video/1477184/thousands-planning-to-vote-swap

    This is brilliant. It should be propagated in a big way until PR is introduced.
  • The key issue with vote swapping is surely one of trust. On the day people go into the booth and vote in their own constituency in secret. Who knows if they hold up their end of the bargain?
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Moving average chart of the 100 most recent YouGov polls. Click to enlarge...

    Simple, Free Image and File Hosting at MediaFire

    YouGov's methology changed at data point number 74 and took 5 days to fully impact upon the moving average.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2015
    felix said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    With regard to London you also have to wonder how many of the 68% Labour voters are even on the register. It may limit the number of Labour gains although no doubt incumbency will ensure the LDs are 'winning everywhere' :)
    The crucial sub-sample [ 1629 ] is just for England and Wales.

    C 36, L 34. If this is anywhere near as correct, a huge number of Tories will go.

    In 2010, the Tories had a lead of 11.7%. Therefore, swing = 4.8% - big !
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Moses_ said:

    I wonder if Today (R4 08.35) will ask Ed about his #EdStone.......

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ssnfy

    It's mentioned here very briefly and laughed off before bringing all the other props into play by any other leader stating with Harold Wilson. Great damage limitation by the BBC and impressive even by their standards.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32575131


    You are being silly. Yesterday they had a whole page dedicated to it.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Has anyone done any England and Wales or just England swing analysis. GB wide is just a waste of time. WE can calculate Scotland separately.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Vote swapping is just another form of campaigning. Plenty of people from outside my constituency are trying to influence my vote. Not least the Tory candidate who until Feb had nothing to do with the place.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    Patrick said:

    The key issue with vote swapping is surely one of trust. On the day people go into the booth and vote in their own constituency in secret. Who knows if they hold up their end of the bargain?

    It also needs the two voters to be living in the wrong type of marginal. It usually involves a Lib Dem voter living in a Labour-Tory marginal voting Labour with a Labour voter living in a Lib Dem-Tory marginal voting Lib Dem.

    In future elections we may see Tory-Ukip vote swapping - though it's not in their nature so maybe it won't catch on. Of course, should that start happening the left wing media might not be so keen on it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited May 2015
    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    With regard to London you also have to wonder how many of the 68% Labour voters are even on the register. It may limit the number of Labour gains although no doubt incumbency will ensure the LDs are 'winning everywhere' :)
    The crucial sub-sample [ 1629 ] is just for England and Wales.

    C 36, L 34. If this is anywhere near as correct, a huge number of Tories will go.

    In 2010, the Tories had a lead of 11.7%. Therefore, swing = 4.8% - big !
    This is one reason I've been sticking so slavishly to a labour win. I know the Tories are hoping their vote is more efficient this time and labour may be piling up votes in safe seats, but that swing at times is very generous and they've been doing well in the marginals, though the latter are close and moe too often for either side to be complacent.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    edited May 2015
    Guessing the big move to tories in the markets has something to do with this? http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/05/02/revealed-eds-night-time-dash-to-casa-brand-driven-by-postal-ballot-panic/#more-19683

    If thats true then all the polls are wrong & we're heading for a tory win.

    Not sure I go for this guff about what troops & candidates are saying but there seems good evidence the tories are much more upbeat than the polls should have them.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    With regard to London you also have to wonder how many of the 68% Labour voters are even on the register. It may limit the number of Labour gains although no doubt incumbency will ensure the LDs are 'winning everywhere' :)
    The crucial sub-sample [ 1629 ] is just for England and Wales.

    C 36, L 34. If this is anywhere near as correct, a huge number of Tories will go.

    In 2010, the Tories had a lead of 11.7%. Therefore, swing = 4.8% - big !
    The lead in England and Wales was 10%. The swing in Yougov 4%.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Moses_ said:
    SNP voting with Conservatives to bring down a Labour government? Has that ever happened before?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Moses_ said:
    SNP voting with Conservatives to bring down a Labour government? Has that ever happened before?
    1979. The traitors have form.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:
    SNP voting with Conservatives to bring down a Labour government? Has that ever happened before?
    They have accommodated each other before on matters of mutual. We do though live in interesting times when quite frankly I am starting to wonder if any combination is possible if there is a distinct advantage by one or other to be gained.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Guessing the big move to tories in the markets has something to do with this? http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/05/02/revealed-eds-night-time-dash-to-casa-brand-driven-by-postal-ballot-panic/#more-19683

    If thats true then all the polls are wrong & we're heading for a tory win.

    Not sure I go for this guff about what troops & candidates are saying but there seems good evidence the tories are much more upbeat than the polls should have them.

    Conservatives have always done best from postal ballots, so it is not clear what is new here. My own guess is that Tory optimism is based on voter targeting via social media. This weekend has seen another avalanche of CCHQ-inspired tweets on the general theme of Ed Is Crap, with particular reference to #EdStone. We shall see. In America, Mitt Romney's team spent most of election night anticipating a swing that never came.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    kle4 said:

    Moses_ said:

    I wonder if Today (R4 08.35) will ask Ed about his #EdStone.......

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ssnfy

    It's mentioned here very briefly and laughed off before bringing all the other props into play by any other leader stating with Harold Wilson. Great damage limitation by the BBC and impressive even by their standards.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32575131


    You are being silly. Yesterday they had a whole page dedicated to it.
    ......and today? Buried.

    Remember this is the news organisation that went on for a month about a Tory visiting a yacht completely forgetting that a key member of the Labour government was also there
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    Don't get hung up on this small sample group. YouGov published another Scottish poll on Sunday with a much larger sample:

    A YouGov survey of 1,162 voters in Scotland puts the Scottish Nationalists on 49%, Labour on 26%, the Conservatives on 15% and Lib Dems on 7%, with Ukip on 2% and the Greens on 1%.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1551990.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_05_02
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Final ARSE with added APLOMB 2015 General Election & "JackW Dozen" Projection Countdown :

    25 hours 25 minutes 25 seconds

    ...................................................

    The eve of poll SUPER ARSE has been moved forward one hour to 9:00pm on Wednesday evening.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    The SPIN midpoints are very close to the PB NOJAM contest. Both may well be wrong but what punters think and what they bet on do seem consistent. My own entry was very close to the mean for the big two. Less so for the LDs.

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sq/summary.php?b=0

    I see that you had the converse with Lab 290 Con 270. Interesting to see Shadsy went for Lab 300 too.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Moses_ said:

    kle4 said:

    Moses_ said:

    I wonder if Today (R4 08.35) will ask Ed about his #EdStone.......

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ssnfy

    It's mentioned here very briefly and laughed off before bringing all the other props into play by any other leader stating with Harold Wilson. Great damage limitation by the BBC and impressive even by their standards.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32575131


    You are being silly. Yesterday they had a whole page dedicated to it.
    ......and today? Buried.

    Remember this is the news organisation that went on for a month about a Tory visiting a yacht completely forgetting that a key member of the Labour government was also there
    I would not call an article essentially spinning off from it burying it. It's a one day story about Twitter getting excited, albeit a very funny one, not something to be run with any longer. they certainly have lingered on labour stories they shouldn't and ignored Tory ones they should, but this event seems fair enough.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Texas shootout story on the news. No doubt about free speech there:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-shooting/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Yougov would give Labour 48 gains from the Tories, putting them ahead by 281/270

    ICM would give them 33 gains, resulting in 266/285.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Exactly. When something is reliant on only the most positive polls being right and even then understating the Tory lead, it could still be right but requires a lot cards falling just right to occur.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    The SPIN midpoints are very close to the PB NOJAM contest. Both may well be wrong but what punters think and what they bet on do seem consistent. My own entry was very close to the mean for the big two. Less so for the LDs.

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sq/summary.php?b=0

    I see that you had the converse with Lab 290 Con 270. Interesting to see Shadsy went for Lab 300 too.

    Without getting all PB Tory about it I think there is an overall bias on this site in favour of the right generally if not so much the Tories in particular so that is consistent.

    My view at the time was that that was what the polling indicated and it has not really changed since. I am expecting something like 50 Labour gains in E&W but slightly more tory/Lib Dem gains than in my example. At the time I expected some recovery from Labour in Scotland but if anything this has gone the other way with the SNP clearly going to be higher than I estimated at that time (42 IIRC) so Labour may well be less than 20 ahead.
  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282
    The figure of -0.1% change for UKIP rather demolishes the idea that prompting automatically raises the UKIP share.This "shy kipper effect" was advanced by Douglas Carswell to expoalin the lower shares shown for UKIP in telephone polls.

    However just like Ashton polls with second questions the methodology is untested.
    My suspicion is still that,at the end of the day on the 7th the seat numbers overall by aprty will b epretty close to UNS UKand UNS Scotland.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    edited May 2015
    Moses_ said:

    kle4 said:

    Moses_ said:

    I wonder if Today (R4 08.35) will ask Ed about his #EdStone.......

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ssnfy

    It's mentioned here very briefly and laughed off before bringing all the other props into play by any other leader stating with Harold Wilson. Great damage limitation by the BBC and impressive even by their standards.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32575131


    You are being silly. Yesterday they had a whole page dedicated to it.
    ......and today? Buried.

    Remember this is the news organisation that went on for a month about a Tory visiting a yacht completely forgetting that a key member of the Labour government was also there
    Sky News didn't have it on their website at all for most of yesterday.

    Mind you I think its the moment i decided not to vote Labour. The Edstone I mean.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Yougov would give Labour 48 gains from the Tories, putting them ahead by 281/270

    ICM would give them 33 gains, resulting in 266/285.
    Sean with your numerous contacts in Herts politics do you have sense of the situation in Watford?

    My delayed chat with my Conservative source has been rescheduled for tomorrow and it would be interesting to compare your views.

  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 994
    Any Liberal looking at the at the Labour stone pledges will be be back voting Liberal Democrat on Thursday.

    An NHS with time to care will need many more immigrants for one.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    Texas shootout story on the news. No doubt about free speech there:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-shooting/

    Pamela Geller, what a surprise.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    edited May 2015
    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland.
    If their lucky.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I've got to admit that I am sceptical about these results. While I don't know, it seems unlikely to me that Tory MPs are simply that much worse/lazy/unappreciated as local MPs (to equate to a 4pp shift in voting preference).

    I have my doubts about two part questions, to be honest, and this just reinforces them. What I suspect Survation is picking up is a bunch of reluctant Tory voters who then take the second question ("no really, if you think *really* hard, will you change your mind and vote for someone apart from those horrible Tories") as a prompt that they got the answer wrong.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Yougov would give Labour 48 gains from the Tories, putting them ahead by 281/270

    ICM would give them 33 gains, resulting in 266/285.
    Sean with your numerous contacts in Herts politics do you have sense of the situation in Watford?

    My delayed chat with my Conservative source has been rescheduled for tomorrow and it would be interesting to compare your views.

    My guess is that Richard Harrington will hold it, because the anti-Conservative vote is so split.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    Charles said:

    the second question ("no really, if you think *really* hard, will you change your mind and vote for someone apart from those horrible Tories") as a prompt that they got the answer wrong.

    Could be the comment of the campaign that. Think your onto something.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    Moses_ said:

    Meanwhile you may end up with the candidate in your area that no one voted for....

    "Thousands of disillusioned voters across the country are pledging to trade their votes with other people using swapping websites. Joe Tidy reports."

    http://news.sky.com/video/1477184/thousands-planning-to-vote-swap

    This is brilliant. It should be propagated in a big way until PR is introduced.
    So the fact that the people voted to retain FPTP means you should do an end round around their wishes?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    People who bet on SPIN are essentially betting on ICM being right. That doesn't seem wildly overoptimistic to me.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Yougov would give Labour 48 gains from the Tories, putting them ahead by 281/270

    ICM would give them 33 gains, resulting in 266/285.
    Sean with your numerous contacts in Herts politics do you have sense of the situation in Watford?

    My delayed chat with my Conservative source has been rescheduled for tomorrow and it would be interesting to compare your views.

    My guess is that Richard Harrington will hold it, because the anti-Conservative vote is so split.
    Thanks Sean.

    Is that your well honed local political instinct or based on more solid local intel ?

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Good morning all! Another day another dollar. An hour or so before I'm back on the streets here in a sunny Stockton South and the mood amongst the Labour team is good. Were working hard (stiff, aching, tired) but the response were getting on the doors is fantastic. Spoke to a voter yesterday who had votes Conservative last time, doesn't think James Wharton has done anything locally, a quick reminder abut him being in Sri Lanka so much his whips banned more trips,a chat about our candidate and her key campaign issues, discussed local issues and what we've done as a party in the area and there we have it.

    A conservative voter last time who is a Labour voter this time. Haven't seen many straight switchers but they are out there. And on the ground there aren't many Tory posters (except in farmers fields) but our posters are appearing like a rash, even in houses we haven't identified as supporting us.

    Anyway, a bit of brekkie and back to it!
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Jonathan said:

    Vote swapping is just another form of campaigning. Plenty of people from outside my constituency are trying to influence my vote. Not least the Tory candidate who until Feb had nothing to do with the place.

    Influencing is fine it's no more than a PPB. Ok he had "nothing to do with the place" then as you rightly say place your vote on that basis in your constituency and make try to make sure he doesn't win or even have a chance and also influence others "in your constituency" to do the same by all means possible.

    Meanwhile me and my mates are going to get together privately on the other side of the country having never been to your area. We will swop all our votes and ensure you get the one person to represent you (this guy you mention) for the next 5 years, "who until Feb had nothing to do with the place" and from a party you don't and would not support in a million years. After that we won't ever give you and your place a thought or a care.

    On top of that because of the swapping the swing to that party you would never vote for here in your constituency provides an additional seat. This seat and in a few other places results in that party gaining just enough seats to put a there leader as PM in No10. So now you have a constituency MP you never wanted, from a party you would never have voted for and their PM in No 10.

    Now do you get it???

    (Of course it can also happen in reverse fro a right wing voter but is it fair or correct?)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    The SPIN midpoints are very close to the PB NOJAM contest. Both may well be wrong but what punters think and what they bet on do seem consistent. My own entry was very close to the mean for the big two. Less so for the LDs.

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sq/summary.php?b=0

    I see that you had the converse with Lab 290 Con 270. Interesting to see Shadsy went for Lab 300 too.

    Without getting all PB Tory about it I think there is an overall bias on this site in favour of the right generally if not so much the Tories in particular so that is consistent.

    My view at the time was that that was what the polling indicated and it has not really changed since. I am expecting something like 50 Labour gains in E&W but slightly more tory/Lib Dem gains than in my example. At the time I expected some recovery from Labour in Scotland but if anything this has gone the other way with the SNP clearly going to be higher than I estimated at that time (42 IIRC) so Labour may well be less than 20 ahead.
    While my Con Lab figure was close to the mean, I had the SNP on 50 and LD on 14. My logic is that both low turnout and individual registration have not been adequately factored into the predictions.

    I agree that there is a Tory bias in terms of betting, so the value does look to be on the Lab side. On the other hand I thought that the indyref betting value was on Yes as the polls seemed too close for 4/1 on Yes to be reasonable, but the markets were right.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Yougov would give Labour 48 gains from the Tories, putting them ahead by 281/270

    ICM would give them 33 gains, resulting in 266/285.
    Sean with your numerous contacts in Herts politics do you have sense of the situation in Watford?

    My delayed chat with my Conservative source has been rescheduled for tomorrow and it would be interesting to compare your views.

    My guess is that Richard Harrington will hold it, because the anti-Conservative vote is so split.
    Thanks Sean.

    Is that your well honed local political instinct or based on more solid local intel ?

    Thanks. The former.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2015
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    With regard to London you also have to wonder how many of the 68% Labour voters are even on the register. It may limit the number of Labour gains although no doubt incumbency will ensure the LDs are 'winning everywhere' :)
    The crucial sub-sample [ 1629 ] is just for England and Wales.

    C 36, L 34. If this is anywhere near as correct, a huge number of Tories will go.

    In 2010, the Tories had a lead of 11.7%. Therefore, swing = 4.8% - big !
    The lead in England and Wales was 10%. The swing in Yougov 4%.
    E & W 2010: C 38.76%, L 28.52%

    England only: C 39.5%, L 28.07%

    I stand corrected. So swing is 4.1%

    Based on Yougov , England & Wales weighted sample of 1629, applying UNS with exact swings [ and my own adjustments ]:

    C 267 - 3 - 6 = 258

    L 279 - 2 + 6 = 283

    LD 16 + 8 = 24

    PC 3 + 1 = 4

    GRN 1 = 1

    UKIP 0 + 3 = 3

    RES + 1

    SPK 1 = 1

    add

    SNP 48, L 6, LD 3, C 2

    Final GB tally: based on Yougov E&W weighted sample of 1629

    C 260, L 290, LD 27, PC 4, GRN 1, UKIP 3, SPK 1, SNP 48, RES 1

    Another result I have noted. Seats like Ealing Acton, Enfield North, Croydon Central, Harrow East are now near the tipping point.

    Guess where the Labour biggies are visiting lately.

    BTW, Hampstead & Kilburn should be well clear. There maybe local difficulties !

    So, why is this so markedly different from pollsters ? It could be:

    Labour is underperforming in the marginal;

    Yougov E&W is wrong;
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Chris123 said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    Don't get hung up on this small sample group. YouGov published another Scottish poll on Sunday with a much larger sample:

    A YouGov survey of 1,162 voters in Scotland puts the Scottish Nationalists on 49%, Labour on 26%, the Conservatives on 15% and Lib Dems on 7%, with Ukip on 2% and the Greens on 1%.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1551990.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_05_02
    My point was that the stronger (and given the polling evidence, unlikely) Labour performance in Scotland in this poll may be flattering their overall position.....
  • heseltineheseltine Posts: 50
    Voters in the area I am in are getting bombarded with leaflets..4 from the Tories in 2 days and 3 from the LibDems. When I asked one of the senior Tory campaign managers why so much bumf he told me it was to negate the LibDem bumf and to stop the average person reading the LibDems lit as they would all be so fed up at the deluge coming through their letterbox.
    One of the South London LD/Tory marginals..
  • DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Exactly. When something is reliant on only the most positive polls being right and even then understating the Tory lead, it could still be right but requires a lot cards falling just right to occur.

    I think the problem is that we are now in a 4-party election in England, not 3. Also, I believe the 11.7% gap for 2010 was England only. Most pollsters are giving us a 3% gap for England/Wales - slightly different thing.

    Anecdotally, there is no doubt Tories are picking up some Lib Dem votes, even some Labour but losing some to Labour and UKIP. So, there is too much going on to work out figures. I am still sticking to that Labour's swing in England will be 1% or less. I know I have been wrong before, many times, but that is based on the thousands of returns from 6 constituencies. Interestingly CCHQ are sending us to places to win rather than to defend. Are they confident of success in marginals? Or given up? Certainly,following local Labour on twitter they are dead quiet and bumping into them at council meetings they have lost their arrogance. Is this a sign of victory or defeat? Would love your views. For me Jack W's view is where I am too!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    With regard to London you also have to wonder how many of the 68% Labour voters are even on the register. It may limit the number of Labour gains although no doubt incumbency will ensure the LDs are 'winning everywhere' :)
    The crucial sub-sample [ 1629 ] is just for England and Wales.

    C 36, L 34. If this is anywhere near as correct, a huge number of Tories will go.

    In 2010, the Tories had a lead of 11.7%. Therefore, swing = 4.8% - big !
    The lead in England and Wales was 10%. The swing in Yougov 4%.
    E & W 2010: C 38.76%, L 28.52%

    England only: C 39.5%, L 28.07%

    I stand corrected. So swing is 4.1%

    Based on Yougov , England & Wales weighted sample of 1629, applying UNS with exact swings [ and my own adjustments ]:

    C 267 - 3 - 6 = 258

    L 279 - 2 + 6 = 283

    LD 16 + 8 = 24

    PC 3 + 1 = 4

    GRN 1 = 1

    UKIP 0 + 3 = 3

    RES + 1

    SPK 1 = 1

    add

    SNP 48, L 6, LD 3, C 2

    Final GB tally: based on Yougov E&W weighted sample of 1629

    C 260, L 290, LD 27, PC 4, GRN 1, UKIP 3, SPK 1, SNP 48, RES 1

    Another result I have noted. Seats like Ealing Acton, Endfield North, Croydon Central, Harrow East are now near the tipping point.

    Guess where the Labour biggies are visiting lately.

    BTW, Hampstead & Kilburn should be well clear. There maybe local difficulties !

    I
    Why do you think the Conservatives will do worse than UNS?

    Peter Kellner reckons the swing in Con/Lab marginals is 1% lower than across E & W as a whole.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scottish Independence - for Scottish Labour:

    DISCUSSIONS are taking place within Scottish Labour for the party to become fully independent of London control, The National has learned.

    http://www.thenational.scot/politics/scottish-labour-are-holding-discussions-over-split-from-london-hq.2592
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Good morning, everyone.

    Feels like polling day will be the end of Act 1, rather than the play's conclusion.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    Scottish Independence - for Scottish Labour:

    DISCUSSIONS are taking place within Scottish Labour for the party to become fully independent of London control, The National has learned.

    http://www.thenational.scot/politics/scottish-labour-are-holding-discussions-over-split-from-london-hq.2592

    You've got to admire the optimism of that group. They must be the only people left who think there will still be a Scottish Labour Party of any sort on May 8th!
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 994

    Scottish Independence - for Scottish Labour:

    DISCUSSIONS are taking place within Scottish Labour for the party to become fully independent of London control, The National has learned.

    http://www.thenational.scot/politics/scottish-labour-are-holding-discussions-over-split-from-london-hq.2592

    Ha, ha -brilliant timing.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2015
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    With regard to London you also have to wonder how many of the 68% Labour voters are even on the register. It may limit the number of Labour gains although no doubt incumbency will ensure the LDs are 'winning everywhere' :)
    The crucial sub-sample [ 1629 ] is just for England and Wales.

    C 36, L 34. If this is anywhere near as correct, a huge number of Tories will go.

    In 2010, the Tories had a lead of 11.7%. Therefore, swing = 4.8% - big !
    The lead in England and Wales was 10%. The swing in Yougov 4%.
    E & W 2010: C 38.76%, L 28.52%

    England only: C 39.5%, L 28.07%

    I stand corrected. So swing is 4.1%

    Based on Yougov , England & Wales weighted sample of 1629, applying UNS with exact swings [ and my own adjustments ]:

    C 267 - 3 - 6 = 258

    L 279 - 2 + 6 = 283

    LD 16 + 8 = 24

    PC 3 + 1 = 4

    GRN 1 = 1

    UKIP 0 + 3 = 3

    RES + 1

    SPK 1 = 1

    add

    SNP 48, L 6, LD 3, C 2

    Final GB tally: based on Yougov E&W weighted sample of 1629

    C 260, L 290, LD 27, PC 4, GRN 1, UKIP 3, SPK 1, SNP 48, RES 1

    Another result I have noted. Seats like Ealing Acton, Endfield North, Croydon Central, Harrow East are now near the tipping point.

    Guess where the Labour biggies are visiting lately.

    BTW, Hampstead & Kilburn should be well clear. There maybe local difficulties !

    I
    Why do you think the Conservatives will do worse than UNS?

    Peter Kellner reckons the swing in Con/Lab marginals is 1% lower than across E & W as a whole.

    I am not saying C will do worse than UNS. My calculations are based on UNS. I took 3 away for UKIP [ whose 2010 figures are so low that UNS does not give them any seats ] and 6 to LD.
    In Scotland, I have given Con 2 seats.

    This is based on Yougov's E&W sample of 1629 only . Only one poll !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Maybe, in other polls, swing in E&W is less than 4.1%. That would change things dramatically. This is purely a statistical exercise - albeit with my adjustments which are minor.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Be wary of this tipster, check his record on Scottish Referendum and USA Presidential Elections.

    However he has stopped clock syndrome so is due a correct bet.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Morning all!

    One can always rely on Boris for his completely impartial view of these things...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11580804/Dont-let-Ed-Miliband-sink-this-country-with-his-commie-slab-of-rock.html
  • DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    Everyone talks up Labour's ground war but don't forget it was in position in 2010. It is not an extra weapon, it is not new. So, their GOTV will not be any better.
  • Charles said:

    surbiton said:

    Moses_ said:

    Meanwhile you may end up with the candidate in your area that no one voted for....

    "Thousands of disillusioned voters across the country are pledging to trade their votes with other people using swapping websites. Joe Tidy reports."

    http://news.sky.com/video/1477184/thousands-planning-to-vote-swap

    This is brilliant. It should be propagated in a big way until PR is introduced.
    So the fact that the people voted to retain FPTP means you should do an end round around their wishes?
    With the utmost respect, they voted against AV, not for FPTP. I voted no, for example, but would have voted yes if the referendum had been for a more proportionate voting system.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,718
    heseltine said:

    Voters in the area I am in are getting bombarded with leaflets..4 from the Tories in 2 days and 3 from the LibDems. When I asked one of the senior Tory campaign managers why so much bumf he told me it was to negate the LibDem bumf and to stop the average person reading the LibDems lit as they would all be so fed up at the deluge coming through their letterbox.
    One of the South London LD/Tory marginals..

    It all makes work for the recycling plants!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    surbiton said:


    I am not saying C will do worse than UNS. My calculations are based on UNS. I took 3 away for UKIP [ whose 2010 figures are so low that UNS does not give them any seats ] and 6 to LD.
    In Scotland, I have given Con 2 seats.
    This is based on Yougov's E&W sample of 1629 only . Only one poll !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Interesting.

    I would give a year's pay to see Gordon Brown's face if Labour lose all their seats in Scotland and the Conservatives win two.

    It would be the funniest moment in politics since Portillo got the chop.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Yorkcity said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Be wary of this tipster, check his record on Scottish Referendum and USA Presidential Elections.

    However he has stopped clock syndrome so is due a correct bet.
    By way of contrast I called the indyref very wrong as well and I'm calling the election as labour by 10-30 seats, end of.
  • ukelectukelect Posts: 140
    heseltine said:

    Voters in the area I am in are getting bombarded with leaflets..4 from the Tories in 2 days and 3 from the LibDems. When I asked one of the senior Tory campaign managers why so much bumf he told me it was to negate the LibDem bumf and to stop the average person reading the LibDems lit as they would all be so fed up at the deluge coming through their letterbox.
    One of the South London LD/Tory marginals..

    Senior Tory campaign managers are afraid that the average person will be converted to Lib Dem if they read the Lib Dem bumf? They must have more faith in the power of political leaflets than I do - ours go straight into recycling unread.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    As the Ashdown polls showed, there appears to be a net anti-incumbent vote in a number of seats. It will vary quite a lot from seat to seat - some of the incumbents spent the first few years of the Parliament building their Westminster profiles in ways that constituents didn't necessarily like; other dug in LibDem-style immediately.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Dixie said:

    Everyone talks up Labour's ground war but don't forget it was in position in 2010. It is not an extra weapon, it is not new. So, their GOTV will not be any better.

    It isn't necessarily as worn down by unenthusiasm after 13 years in power perhaps, but that is a total guess on my part.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Dixie said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Not quite. Assume Labour are going to lose 35 seats in Scotland. 258-35= 223.

    Assume the Tories gain 15 from the Lib Dems and Labour 10. Assume Tories lose 3 to UKIP.

    Starting points 306+ 15-3 = 318; 223+10= 233.

    Difference is 85 which means to achieve a lead Labour needs 43 gains. For the Tories to have a lead of 30 Labour need to be restricted to 28 gains.

    If Yougov is right they will have nearer 75 gains and a significant lead with most of the 2010 gains falling back to Labour. If ICM is right (4% lead) it is nearer 40 with a very small Tory lead. The tories only win by 30 seats by my reckoning if they get more like a 6% lead. Possible, but not indicated by very much of the polling at the moment and hardly "end of."

    I find the current SPIN midpoints inexplicable. It is a repeat of 2010 with silly money being invested in a Tory success by punters voting with their hearts instead of their heads.
    Exactly. When something is reliant on only the most positive polls being right and even then understating the Tory lead, it could still be right but requires a lot cards falling just right to occur.
    For me Jack W's view is where I am too!
    Your portable pop up ARSE shrine is in the post.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Dixie said:

    Everyone talks up Labour's ground war but don't forget it was in position in 2010. It is not an extra weapon, it is not new. So, their GOTV will not be any better.

    Labour's GOTV in 2010 probably saved 20 seats. Just check out the projections at eve of poll.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Woke up this morning, sun shining over Harrogate, and a Tories are doomed thread on PB alls right with the world. Happy bank holiday to all.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    I think Hampstead & Kilburn will be an easy labour hold, partly because the Libdem candidate is probably doing a better job of holding on to libdem - > conservative switchers, than to libdem -> labour ones.

    40:30:20 would be my guess
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 994
    A link to Jack's ARSE would be useful - what is it saying today?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    ukelect said:


    Senior Tory campaign managers are afraid that the average person will be converted to Lib Dem if they read the Lib Dem bumf? They must have more faith in the power of political leaflets than I do - ours go straight into recycling unread.

    I used to read mine, but the spelling mistakes from all parties (the Tories were worst, but Labour's leaflets have been pretty awful as well) brought out my inner Grammar Gauleiter (my nickname while doing my PGCE). I found I was referring to them very loudly as a lot of addled motherf***ers who didn't deserve my vote. I realised this was unfair and possibly slanderous, and not wishing to be sued by addled motherf***ers, I decided to bin the leaflets from thereon in.

    Is it really beyond the capacity of political parties to hire people with a reasonable command of English to either (a) write or (b) check these things?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Tories by 20-30 seats. End of.

    Be wary of this tipster, check his record on Scottish Referendum and USA Presidential Elections.

    However he has stopped clock syndrome so is due a correct bet.
    By way of contrast I called the indyref very wrong as well and I'm calling the election as labour by 10-30 seats, end of.
    I called the indyref right - that was easy (comparatively). I just haven't a clue what the result of this election is going to be, so don't feel able to make a prediction at all.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @theJeremyVine: Yesterday’s stone moment cartooned by @MortenMorland http://t.co/XomlQc9qiY
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    Was this a two stage question, or did they segment their panel in to two halves?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    And if it was two stage, did they randomise the order?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,718
    surbiton said:

    Dixie said:

    Everyone talks up Labour's ground war but don't forget it was in position in 2010. It is not an extra weapon, it is not new. So, their GOTV will not be any better.

    Labour's GOTV in 2010 probably saved 20 seats. Just check out the projections at eve of poll.
    Surely Labour’s GOTV operation, in England anyway, will be more motivated than in 2010. I think we forget what a mess Labour appeared to be in then.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Ed may have a 'women problem':

    Leanne:

    What I find quite staggering is the attitude from Lab politicians, assuming Plaid Cymru, the SNP and Greens are in their pocket.

    We would be prepard to vote down a Labour budget that was putting more on the backs of the poor … They need to take on board some of the things we are saying.

    People are saying neither of the two main parties have done enough to win trust and a mandate to govern. That’s democracy .


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2015/may/04/election-2015-live-result-knife-edge-ken-clarke-warns-chaos-second-vote#block-55470d32e4b03ffb297e56b6
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    edited May 2015

    Chris123 said:

    The YouGov (34 - 33 Con/Lab) has a pretty good Scottish subsample for Lab - 30 vs SNP's 42

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/v560chbmi3/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030515.pdf

    Labour London has the lowest certainty to vote (68) while SNP Scotland has the highest (80), and how people will vote also follows same pattern - 79% of Londoners have definitely decided how to vote, while 90% of Scots (and 91% in RoS) know who they will vote for.

    Don't get hung up on this small sample group. YouGov published another Scottish poll on Sunday with a much larger sample:

    A YouGov survey of 1,162 voters in Scotland puts the Scottish Nationalists on 49%, Labour on 26%, the Conservatives on 15% and Lib Dems on 7%, with Ukip on 2% and the Greens on 1%.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1551990.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_05_02
    My point was that the stronger (and given the polling evidence, unlikely) Labour performance in Scotland in this poll may be flattering their overall position.....
    Ah, ok.

    BTW, there has been a pattern for the internet polls with much smaller sample sizes to assign greater support to labour than the larger polls exclusively focusing on Scotland. In those polls, the SNP has getting upward of 49%.

    "However, the latest swing to the SNP has not been replicated in the polls that Scotland on Sunday has uniquely been following during the campaign.

    These ­are the Britain-wide polls, of which there were no less than 18 last week. Individually, these contain too few Scots to provide a reliable estimate of how well the parties are doing north of the Border. But collectively, they have interviewed around 2,000 Scots – more than most Scotland-wide polls.

    The SNP remain well ahead in these polls. But at 45 per cent their tally is much as it has been throughout the campaign.

    Equally, after having shown signs of slipping during the campaign, Labour support has crept back up to 28 per cent during the last week."

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/john-curtice-still-hope-for-labour-in-scotland-1-3761699

    I don't quite know why this is but I take it as further evidence that the national internet polls overstate Labour support.
  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282
    If latest You Gov is back to 9% for Lib Dems reasonable chance of LD getting 10% on either ICM or Ashcroft (assume they are releasing figures today).Also possibility on ICM that UKIP may be down to 4th place.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2015
    Icarus said:

    A link to Jack's ARSE would be useful - what is it saying today?

    It's saying you'll have to wait until tomorrow morning for the final twice weekly projection to be published. :smile:

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Diixie said:

    Interestingly CCHQ are sending us to places to win rather than to defend. Are they confident of success in marginals? Or given up? Certainly,following local Labour on twitter they are dead quiet and bumping into them at council meetings they have lost their arrogance. Is this a sign of victory or defeat? Would love your views. For me Jack W's view is where I am too!

    The view in Stockton South is that James Wharton had a massive long campaign. Huge cash spend on expensive leaflets delivered fortnightly at one point by Royal Mail, few local activists but several Road Trip 2015 coachloads brought in to generate some "here are my army" photos.

    Then the short campaign started. No more leaflets (just an election address across the constituency plus a few targeted drops in winnable wards only), no more road trip armies, and a few reports from normals that they saw him out leafleting and he wouldn't atop and talk saying he didn't have time. On Saturday as we had our local volunteer force out in droves I drove past the Tories gathering at lunchtime - a dozen of them sent out to knock on a very limited number of doors in pairs.

    Its like the short campaign started and his campaign stopped.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    surbiton said:

    Moses_ said:
    SNP voting with Conservatives to bring down a Labour government? Has that ever happened before?
    1979. The traitors have form.
    Was that when they voted with the 30 traitorous Labour MP's to get rid of a useless bunch of no hopers.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    saddened said:

    Woke up this morning, sun shining over Harrogate, and a Tories are doomed thread on PB alls right with the world. Happy bank holiday to all.

    They are not doomed in Harrogate.
    Even though the yellow triangles are every where
    I have driven through there many times on my way to work.

    York Central is 1 -50 for Labour.

    I remember when York was a marginal between Conservatives and Labour, changing at many election from 1964 to 1992
    How times change.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    As the Ashdown polls showed ....

    Nick Palmer has access to internal yellow peril polling ??

    Broxtowe LibDem Gain !!!!

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:


    I am not saying C will do worse than UNS. My calculations are based on UNS. I took 3 away for UKIP [ whose 2010 figures are so low that UNS does not give them any seats ] and 6 to LD.
    In Scotland, I have given Con 2 seats.
    This is based on Yougov's E&W sample of 1629 only . Only one poll !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Interesting.

    I would give a year's pay to see Gordon Brown's face if Labour lose all their seats in Scotland and the Conservatives win two.

    It would be the funniest moment in politics since Portillo got the chop.
    Would have been better if he himself was standing and lost his seat. As with anything Brown though he avoids elections as he truly is the political coward.

    With exception of becoming an MP he was coronated all the way and when he got the ultimate prize and finally by law had to face the electorate he was gone. His long lasting legacy of damage, destruction and wanton vandalism will remain though and for generations to come. He won't be forgotten easily that's for sure.

    MIlliband, son of Brown, will just continue the temporarily postponed project of course and do the same but with even a more dire outcome.

    We will also get a stone phallus in No 10 ( Err.. The stone I mean). ;-)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Mr. City, and boundaries ;)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    surbiton said:

    Moses_ said:
    SNP voting with Conservatives to bring down a Labour government? Has that ever happened before?
    1979. The traitors have form.
    Was that when they voted with the 30 traitorous Labour MP's to get rid of a useless bunch of no hopers.
    Yes - the SNP voted with Red Tories......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    rogerh said:

    If latest You Gov is back to 9% for Lib Dems reasonable chance of LD getting 10% on either ICM or Ashcroft (assume they are releasing figures today).Also possibility on ICM that UKIP may be down to 4th place.

    That would be a fun result. I want UKIP to do well, but at times there has been a bit much crowing about how well they've done in the polls well ahead of GE time, or even talk about the LDs being an irrelevance what with UKIP polling twice as much as them and so on, such that to finish below them would be disappointing (if still a great result, and likely not affecting the number of seats they win much).

    Probably won't happen though.

    Ed may have a 'women problem':

    Leanne:

    What I find quite staggering is the attitude from Lab politicians, assuming Plaid Cymru, the SNP and Greens are in their pocket.

    We would be prepard to vote down a Labour budget that was putting more on the backs of the poor … They need to take on board some of the things we are saying.

    People are saying neither of the two main parties have done enough to win trust and a mandate to govern. That’s democracy .


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2015/may/04/election-2015-live-result-knife-edge-ken-clarke-warns-chaos-second-vote#block-55470d32e4b03ffb297e56b6

    She cannot possibly find that staggering, as it was her categorical words on the subject and the very few seats the PC and Greens have that let Ed know they are in his pocket if push comes to shove. Only the SNP have the muscle to make Ed stop and think, and they are just tagging on to their coattails (openly so, given much of the PC pitch during the debates at least was 'One day, we could be like the SNP'). Now she is rolling back on her words a little to give the indication her support is not guaranteed, understandably, but let's face it, if the SNP are on board then PC are probably on board, so Ed still only has to worry about the former.
This discussion has been closed.