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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on Jihadi John and the afternoon round-up

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on Jihadi John and the afternoon round-up

A bit unfair on UKIP? Publicity stunt for "The Producers" at Margate – UKIP conference venue. Hot pants & swastikas pic.twitter.com/cXwRT8vZ1j

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Comments

  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    31 days until the dissolution of parliament.
  • So when I edit PB, does this give me an excuse to embed pictures of pretty ladies in hot pants?
  • Nice cartoon, Marf!

    We are all cartoonists now!
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @BenM
    Burger! For a moment I thought you had said demolition.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    The brighter students will of course realise that ultimately, they'll pay for cheaper tuition today, with reduced pensions tomorrow.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    @faisalislam: Miliband says "we'll continue to look at graduate tax after the election. This is the policy for the manifesto"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    So when I edit PB, does this give me an excuse to embed pictures of pretty ladies in hot pants?

    The Producers sounds like a play with a very poor taste theme. Doubt it'll do very well at the box office - wouldn't like to be a backer of it personally.
  • Part-ELBOW for nine polls so far this week (inc. last night's YG and Populus):
    Labour lead by 0.8%

    Interesting split between the four YG polls and five non-YouGov polls so far this week.

    ELBOW of the four YG polls gives Tories a 0.2% lead.

    ELBOW of the five non-YG polls gives Labour a 1.9% lead
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Pulpstar
    There are number of people going to court on Monday(?).. that thought stuff like that was a spiffing idea.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    I just have to say that the Marf cartoon is as damming as it is poignant as it is utterly brilliant all in equal measures. By far the best I have seen from on this specific subject not only here but in the mainstream.

    In sums up entirely in one drawing the complete and terrible mess we are in from cradle to grave.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited February 2015
    From Ed's speech - the pension changes are 3:

    1. Somehow those earning over £150k will only be allowed to get 20p in £ tax relief on pension contributions.... Labour's never heard of salary sacrifice I presume?

    2. LTA reduced to £1m

    3. AA reduced to £30k pa.


    Pillocks.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    It seems after months of wrangling over how to pay for Ed's latest wheeze, it's another trip to the magic money tree.

    Could have announced that before Ed made his speech...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    edited February 2015

    From Ed's speech - the pension changes are 3:

    1. Somehow those earning over £150k will only be allowed to get 20p in £ tax relief on pension contributions.... Labour's never heard of salary sacrifice I presume?

    2. LTA reduced to £1m

    3. AA reduced to £30k pa.


    Pillocks.

    Why would anyone not be on salary sacrifice ?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    There are number of people going to court on Monday(?).. that thought stuff like that was a spiffing idea.

    Have you seen "The Producers" ;) ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Part-ELBOW for nine polls so far this week (inc. last night's YG and Populus):
    Labour lead by 0.8%

    Interesting split between the four YG polls and five non-YouGov polls so far this week.

    ELBOW of the four YG polls gives Tories a 0.2% lead.

    ELBOW of the five non-YG polls gives Labour a 1.9% lead

    Let's see how that compares when next weeks contribution from His Lordship's Bouncy Castle of Polling is included....
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Pulpstar
    Yes, but the case coming up fascinates me.
    (mainly for possible defence comedy value)
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Higher earning Media Lefties would never countenance such a move, but think of all the HMRC staff it could put out of work.
  • http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31656222

    A knife-wielding mob has hacked to death a US-Bangladeshi blogger whose writing on religion had brought threats from Islamist hardliners.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    Yes, but the case coming up fascinates me.
    (mainly for possible defence comedy value)

    Which case is this ?
  • Pulpstar said:

    From Ed's speech - the pension changes are 3:

    1. Somehow those earning over £150k will only be allowed to get 20p in £ tax relief on pension contributions.... Labour's never heard of salary sacrifice I presume?

    2. LTA reduced to £1m

    3. AA reduced to £30k pa.

    Pillocks.

    Why would anyone not be on salary sacrifice ?
    Indeed so how would that policy raise any money then? Surely not symbolic slam the rich banker politics?

    Mind you, I know a hedge fund who won't do sal sac as they fear it would be 'politically' seen as unacceptable tax avoidance... totally risk averse on reputation if you can believe that.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AndyWoodcock: Money Saving Expert's @MartinSLewis says Labour's tuition #fees cut will mean poorer students subsidising investment bankers #wato
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Pulpstar
    You are normally smart enough to avoid the obvious wind ups
    Ran out of coffee?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    Smarmeron said:

    @MaxPB
    If the shares are such a good investment, why do the public have to sell theirs?

    Because the government are not in the business of owning banks. As long as the taxpayer doesn't lose money then it isn't a great concern. I think the Treasury should aim for a 3% pa ROI backdated to 2008 essentially to offset the debt interest incurred when the stake was paid for. That I think requires a target price of 90p per share for the rest which is well within reach.

    Also, the public have been free to buy Lloyds shares, I did that back in 2011 at the bargain price of 27p.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    I'm rather worried that labour will somehow turn small companies into having to do that....
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Chucky Umunna sent in to bat on The World at One. The Jobs Guarantee is now to be funded by the Bankers Bonus Tax.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Pulpstar
    Chris Atkins, several former RBS bankers, and various associates.
    The guy who shot back into "fame" for the strange UKIP fantasy programme on CH4?
    A career mainly in investigative journalism and expose.
    At the very least, it is ironic, but with the possibility of a real comedy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    ok - But pretty much most GENUINELY self employed small/single person business in the land would pay themselves minimum wage if this was the case...
  • Pulpstar said:

    From Ed's speech - the pension changes are 3:

    1. Somehow those earning over £150k will only be allowed to get 20p in £ tax relief on pension contributions.... Labour's never heard of salary sacrifice I presume?

    2. LTA reduced to £1m

    3. AA reduced to £30k pa.


    Pillocks.

    Why would anyone not be on salary sacrifice ?
    Presume they will find a way to avoid this loophole.

    I real worry, I think, is that a significant chunk of HE funding is now no longer guaranteed. It will have to be negotiated with Treasury every few years.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    @AndyWoodcock: Money Saving Expert's @MartinSLewis says Labour's tuition #fees cut will mean poorer students subsidising investment bankers #wato

    http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2015/02/02/labours-plan-to-cut-tuition-fees-to-6000-is-a-financially-illiterate-policy/?_ga=1.187890785.871373887.1418245540
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Absolutely fantastic cartoon.

    But back to Labour's tuition fee debacle. Is there some collective insanity going on here? It seems the media, Labour, and most posters here can't count.

    £9000 fees paid by provision of loans, costs the Treasury £9000 per student.
    £6000 fees paid by provision of loans and £3000 paid directly to Universities costs the Treasury £9000 per student.

    It is the same figure. - the Treasury pays out £9000 per student.

    It does not require new "funding".

    It is Fiscally neutral in the current budget and in future budgets for at least 10 years, if not forever (given NPV of the money and the likely repayment rates).
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955

    I'm rather worried that labour will somehow turn small companies into having to do that....

    It would be interesting to know how voting intention varies between employees, the self employed, small businesses and so on.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    ok - But pretty much most GENUINELY self employed small/single person business in the land would pay themselves minimum wage if this was the case...
    Not really, company directors are exempt from minimum wage, so they generally pay themselves just under the personal allowance, and extract profits via dividends.


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    Chris Atkins, several former RBS bankers, and various associates.
    The guy who shot back into "fame" for the strange UKIP fantasy programme on CH4?
    A career mainly in investigative journalism and expose.
    At the very least, it is ironic, but with the possibility of a real comedy.

    Oh Hah yes forgot about that... life imitates art.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    TGOHF said:

    You could cut and paste that URL for different stories, and fill in the blank...

    >> Labours Plan ................. is a financially illiterate policy. <<

    But do the voters care?

  • glwglw Posts: 9,955

    Chucky Umunna sent in to bat on The World at One. The Jobs Guarantee is now to be funded by the Bankers Bonus Tax.

    House!

    Everything is going to be paid for by one tax.
  • V clever cartoon Marf – a perfect melding of the soppy with the sinister .
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited February 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    Yes, but the case coming up fascinates me.
    (mainly for possible defence comedy value)

    Which case is this ?
    Ingenious Film Partners.

    Oh I see he didn't mean that one. I'd have thought Ingenious was closer to The Producers script than the Atkins case.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Pulpstar
    I have no idea about the content, but the cast list looks interesting?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    ok - But pretty much most GENUINELY self employed small/single person business in the land would pay themselves minimum wage if this was the case...
    How do you mean genuinely?
    Either you're employed, as in earning money for the company and being payed a salary, or you're not earning for the company and the company is dormant (and you are not employed by it)

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    ok - But pretty much most GENUINELY self employed small/single person business in the land would pay themselves minimum wage if this was the case...
    Not really, company directors are exempt from minimum wage, so they generally pay themselves just under the personal allowance, and extract profits via dividends.


    Yes, that's entirely compatible with paying yourself minimum wage.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    ok - But pretty much most GENUINELY self employed small/single person business in the land would pay themselves minimum wage if this was the case...
    How do you mean genuinely?
    Either you're employed, as in earning money for the company and being payed a salary, or you're not earning for the company and the company is dormant (and you are not employed by it)

    IR35.... where you run a limited company as a director, but could be considered to be an employee of the business the company is working for.
  • glw said:

    Chucky Umunna sent in to bat on The World at One. The Jobs Guarantee is now to be funded by the Bankers Bonus Tax.

    House!

    Everything is going to be paid for by one tax.
    How many times over is that bankers tax spent now?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    Yes, but the case coming up fascinates me.
    (mainly for possible defence comedy value)

    Which case is this ?
    Ingenious Film Partners.

    Oh I see he didn't mean that one. I'd have thought Ingenious was closer to The Producers script than the Atkins case.
    Exploited a tax loophole created under the last Labour government. How many more are there?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Be interesting to see how Osborne responds to Labour's pensions/tuition fees notions in the Budget. He has a couple of weeks to dream up something.

    Personally, I would keep University fees up at 9,000 quid so they don't get a drop in funding - but announce a Govt. contribution to personal repayment of student fees. So when students finally DO have to start making repayments, then the Govt. will pay the first X thousand as that falls due. With an aspiration that this will be raised to Y thousand over time as these graduates share in the proceeds of economic growth they are helping to underpin. It pushes back the time when students who go into work will have to make their own contribution. Perhaps significantly. Which helps the Bank of Mum and Dad in the meantime. But the hit to the Exchequer isn't too harsh too soon, as it only kicks in when students enter full-time employment.

    Make it clear that the contribution comes from the Govt taxing the rich at a 5% higher rate than Labour did for 98% of their term of office.

    Politically it paints the LibDems as the bad guys and Labour as the mad guys.

  • TGOHF said:
    Doesn't look good for Ed M, I'm afraid. Will this be another case where Ed B was right? He clearly has dragged his feet over this for months.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    I'm rather worried that labour will somehow turn small companies into having to do that....
    Stupid idea. If they do that, I'll sell my house, buy a cheaper one and retire early.

    With more people becoming self-employed, this problem will grow. But there are lots of easy ways to streamline self-employed income tax payments, reducing my admin. costs and making life easier for HMRC. The trouble is that no-one who thinks of new tax legislation seems to have the slightest idea of life in the real world or ask for small businesses' opinions.

    Has any Labour front bencher ever been self-employed and dealt with HMRC, the monster which they created in 2005? The HMRC staff who post anonymously on www.hmrcisshite.co.uk seem to think it's totally f***ed.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Scrapheap_as_was
    They need to simplify the tax system, put everyone on PAYE and then let them argue about a rebate.

    Who puts the self employed on PAYE ?
    Urgh...

    Each self employed person would need to be their own employer, set-up a LTD co to take the income and pay salary, PAYE and NI etc..


    ok - But pretty much most GENUINELY self employed small/single person business in the land would pay themselves minimum wage if this was the case...
    How do you mean genuinely?
    Either you're employed, as in earning money for the company and being payed a salary, or you're not earning for the company and the company is dormant (and you are not employed by it)

    IR35.... where you run a limited company as a director, but could be considered to be an employee of the business the company is working for.
    Sorry, yeah just got that...

    I know all about IR35 sadly... HMRC took 2 years to declare that I was not operating within its remit.

    (the life of an IT Contractor)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Chucky Umunna sent in to bat on The World at One. The Jobs Guarantee is now to be funded by the Bankers Bonus Tax.

    So as predicted, "bankers" includes the Bank of Mum and Dad.

    Way to go Labour.....
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955

    glw said:

    Chucky Umunna sent in to bat on The World at One. The Jobs Guarantee is now to be funded by the Bankers Bonus Tax.

    House!

    Everything is going to be paid for by one tax.
    How many times over is that bankers tax spent now?
    If the jobs guarantee funding is a new announcement that is 12 times now I believe.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher
    Allegedly exploited? (you should know better than that, you pull enough people up for it)
    At the last comment I know of, he was "looking forward to his day in court to prove his innocence" (the upcoming appearance is a pleading diet, or English equivalent)
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Allegedly exploited? (you should know better than that, you pull enough people up for it)
    At the last comment I know of, he was "looking forward to his day in court to prove his innocence" (the upcoming appearance is a pleading diet, or English equivalent)

    Read my post again. I was referring to Dair's mention of Ingenious Film Partners, not the Atkins case.
  • Moses_ said:

    I just have to say that the Marf cartoon is as damming as it is poignant as it is utterly brilliant all in equal measures. By far the best I have seen from on this specific subject not only here but in the mainstream.

    In sums up entirely in one drawing the complete and terrible mess we are in from cradle to grave.

    Yes, I agree, Moses.

    As it happened I saw Marf this morning and she showed me an early draft. I thought it was good, but not imo out of the ordinary. It did not at that stage however have the sinister eye behind the door. Chilling, and exceptional.

    Btw, the 'portrait' format of the Site does the cartoon no favours when the original is 'landscape' as this one is. Can't be helped, but a more sympathetic layout would make the impact greater still. (Nonetheless I believe the toon is trending heavily on Twitter already.)

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568

    TGOHF said:
    Doesn't look good for Ed M, I'm afraid. Will this be another case where Ed B was right? He clearly has dragged his feet over this for months.
    Lewis is basically arguing that the current system is better because most people get part of the debt written off as they can't afford to pay it all within 30 years, so it's only high earners who manage to repay it. But a system based on the assumption that half the stated debt will never be paid back is essentially dumb in an entirely non-political way.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited February 2015
    @TheWatcher
    Sorry. you were talking about "Ingenious"., where the plot revolved round a loophole created by the last Labour government?
    I am glad you cleared that up.
  • The politics of Ed's announcement are a bit odd. If we assume for the sake of argument that the tax-increase side is correct, i.e. that they could raise £3bn from their pension raid, then spending that money on reducing the contribution which well-off graduates will in the future have to make to their university education is an interesting priority at a time of tough spending decisions.
  • Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    I have no idea about the content, but the cast list looks interesting?

    If you have never seen The Producers, you simply must. It's a truly brilliant comedy.

    Amongst its many virtues is the ruthlessness with which it kicks political correctness into the long grass and stamps it mercilessly into the dirt.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    TGOHF said:
    Doesn't look good for Ed M, I'm afraid. Will this be another case where Ed B was right? He clearly has dragged his feet over this for months.
    Lewis is basically arguing that the current system is better because most people get part of the debt written off as they can't afford to pay it all within 30 years, so it's only high earners who manage to repay it. But a system based on the assumption that half the stated debt will never be paid back is essentially dumb in an entirely non-political way.

    Your point is entirely unrelated to reducing the amounts Universities will get from nine thousand to six thousand. That is hardly a piece of accounting dumbness....
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    The politics of Ed's announcement are a bit odd. If we assume for the sake of argument that the tax-increase side is correct, i.e. that they could raise £3bn from their pension raid, then spending that money on reducing the contribution which well-off graduates will in the future have to make to their university education is an interesting priority at a time of tough spending decisions.

    The figures look in the right ball-park to me (I'm using the HMT's estimates of the impact of Osborne's pension raid that they're copying and extrapolating fairly simply from there). The choice of spending is pure politics obviously. That's politicians for you.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    So when I edit PB, does this give me an excuse to embed pictures of pretty ladies in hot pants?

    The Producers sounds like a play with a very poor taste theme. Doubt it'll do very well at the box office - wouldn't like to be a backer of it personally.
    I'm assuming you are being sarcastic?

    After 33 previews, the original Broadway production opened at the St. James Theatre on April 19, 2001, starring Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick, and ran for 2,502 performances, winning a record-breaking 12 Tony Awards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Producers_(musical)
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Can't help myself. This one is for HYUFD - Christie is political toast:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/26/opinion/gail-collins-adieu-chris-christie-adieu.html?ref=todayspaper
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    I have no idea about the content, but the cast list looks interesting?

    If you have never seen The Producers, you simply must. It's a truly brilliant comedy.

    Amongst its many virtues is the ruthlessness with which it kicks political correctness into the long grass and stamps it mercilessly into the dirt.
    Pulpstar said:

    So when I edit PB, does this give me an excuse to embed pictures of pretty ladies in hot pants?

    The Producers sounds like a play with a very poor taste theme. Doubt it'll do very well at the box office - wouldn't like to be a backer of it personally.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,550
    When Labour had a similar policy on pension tax relief for over £150k earners in 2009/10 they had a complicated mechanism for including employers pension contributions in determining whether you were above the £150k barrier in order to prevent salary sacrifice mechanisms.

    Now such a mechanism may not be required since an annual £30k pension limit would restrict salary sacrifice mechanisms to those under £180k. In contrast in 2009/10 the annual limit on pension contributions was your annual earnings.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @NickPalmer
    You are missing the cunning part, where the government sells off the loans book to the private sector.
    (seems there was an unexpected hold up though)
  • TGOHF said:
    Doesn't look good for Ed M, I'm afraid. Will this be another case where Ed B was right? He clearly has dragged his feet over this for months.
    Lewis is basically arguing that the current system is better because most people get part of the debt written off as they can't afford to pay it all within 30 years, so it's only high earners who manage to repay it. But a system based on the assumption that half the stated debt will never be paid back is essentially dumb in an entirely non-political way.

    So what's the long term answer? Personally, I'd like a world where higher education would be free, but in reality I think a graduate tax was the least worst proposal.
  • But a system based on the assumption that half the stated debt will never be paid back is essentially dumb in an entirely non-political way.

    Why? It's just a question of terminology. If you call it (as Martin Lewis sensibly suggests) a 'high-earning graduate contribution', it makes good sense.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    TGOHF said:
    Doesn't look good for Ed M, I'm afraid. Will this be another case where Ed B was right? He clearly has dragged his feet over this for months.
    Lewis is basically arguing that the current system is better because most people get part of the debt written off as they can't afford to pay it all within 30 years, so it's only high earners who manage to repay it. But a system based on the assumption that half the stated debt will never be paid back is essentially dumb in an entirely non-political way.

    To be honest Nick, loans aside, a system based upon sending 50% of young adults to university is dumb in an entirely non-political way when there is no need for 50% of the working population to be graduates, and actual shortages of skilled and unskilled workforce in non graduate jobs.

    Of course no one will say it, but this country was more socially mobile when fewer people attended university.

  • IF ANY JOURNALISTS READ PB, PLEASE ASK LABOUR HOW THEIR STUPID POLICY OF RESTRICTING PENSON RELIEF TO 20% FOR THOSE WHO EARN £150K+ WORKS WITH SALARY SACRIFICE/EXCHANGE?

    THOSE EARNERS ARE LIKELY ALREADY DOING IT NOW - WILL THAT BE STOPPED - HOW?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    MTimT said:

    Can't help myself. This one is for HYUFD - Christie is political toast:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/26/opinion/gail-collins-adieu-chris-christie-adieu.html?ref=todayspaper

    Tsk @MTimT I posted that yesterday ;)

    The Times sure seems to have it in for Christie though.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    @Charles Reread my posts and have a good think about the plot of "The Producers" ;)
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    I have no idea about the content, but the cast list looks interesting?

    If you have never seen The Producers, you simply must. It's a truly brilliant comedy.

    Amongst its many virtues is the ruthlessness with which it kicks political correctness into the long grass and stamps it mercilessly into the dirt.
    I don't remember that bit
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The politics of Ed's announcement are a bit odd. If we assume for the sake of argument that the tax-increase side is correct, i.e. that they could raise £3bn from their pension raid, then spending that money on reducing the contribution which well-off graduates will in the future have to make to their university education is an interesting priority at a time of tough spending decisions.

    That' why the first time they announced this pensions wheeze it was to pay for something completely different.

    @PeterMannionMP: Labour's new policy: 'Live fast, die young, kids...cos we'll have pissed away all the pensions cash if you live to be old.."
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @MaxPB
    If the shares are such a good investment, why do the public have to sell theirs?

    Because the government are not in the business of owning banks. As long as the taxpayer doesn't lose money then it isn't a great concern. I think the Treasury should aim for a 3% pa ROI backdated to 2008 essentially to offset the debt interest incurred when the stake was paid for. That I think requires a target price of 90p per share for the rest which is well within reach.

    Also, the public have been free to buy Lloyds shares, I did that back in 2011 at the bargain price of 27p.
    They've made a chunky profit on the insurance schemes and other fee-based part of the structures.

    I think, from memory, their in-price is around 72p and the break-even price (including the fees etc) is around 65p
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    edited February 2015
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    Yes, but the case coming up fascinates me.
    (mainly for possible defence comedy value)

    Which case is this ?
    Ingenious Film Partners.

    Oh I see he didn't mean that one. I'd have thought Ingenious was closer to The Producers script than the Atkins case.
    Media luvvies must be most the subsidised sector of the economy. Tax breaks, self employed contracts, tv licence, lottery funding...
  • TGOHF said:
    Doesn't look good for Ed M, I'm afraid. Will this be another case where Ed B was right? He clearly has dragged his feet over this for months.
    Lewis is basically arguing that the current system is better because most people get part of the debt written off as they can't afford to pay it all within 30 years, so it's only high earners who manage to repay it. But a system based on the assumption that half the stated debt will never be paid back is essentially dumb in an entirely non-political way.

    So what's the long term answer? Personally, I'd like a world where higher education would be free, but in reality I think a graduate tax was the least worst proposal.
    Theres no such thing as 'free' someone's got to pay it.

    In a world where the loan doesn't get paid off, then the system works as a de-facto graduate tax anyway.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Smarmeron said:

    @NickPalmer
    You are missing the cunning part, where the government sells off the loans book to the private sector.
    (seems there was an unexpected hold up though)

    What % of fair value did the pre '99 book get sold off for ?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    edited February 2015
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    So when I edit PB, does this give me an excuse to embed pictures of pretty ladies in hot pants?

    The Producers sounds like a play with a very poor taste theme. Doubt it'll do very well at the box office - wouldn't like to be a backer of it personally.
    I'm assuming you are being sarcastic?

    After 33 previews, the original Broadway production opened at the St. James Theatre on April 19, 2001, starring Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick, and ran for 2,502 performances, winning a record-breaking 12 Tony Awards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Producers_(musical)
    So what you're saying is that despite the poor taste theme about nazis, The Producers did much better than Pulpstar suggested and didn't lose its backers money after all? How unexpected, somebody should write a play about that!
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    TGOHF said:
    Doesn't look good for Ed M, I'm afraid. Will this be another case where Ed B was right? He clearly has dragged his feet over this for months.
    Lewis is basically arguing that the current system is better because most people get part of the debt written off as they can't afford to pay it all within 30 years, so it's only high earners who manage to repay it. But a system based on the assumption that half the stated debt will never be paid back is essentially dumb in an entirely non-political way.

    Exactly what I've been saying ever since this system came in.

    It is nothing less than Madhouse politics that a system is sold on the fact that, er, it's ok you won't pay it back anyway (and there are *even* less people paying it back than the models suggested just a few years ago).

    It is ironic that at a time debt is deemed to be really really really bad (copyright Tories everywhere) that it is deemed ok to lump such burdens onto young people. Another example of how Tories (and New Labour before them) have screwed over the young in favour of the old - who let's not forget didn't have pay anything directly towards their higher education.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @MaxPB
    "Because the government are not in the business of owning banks"
    Only our government, they prefer other countries nationalized businesses to run things instead.
  • When Labour had a similar policy on pension tax relief for over £150k earners in 2009/10 they had a complicated mechanism for including employers pension contributions in determining whether you were above the £150k barrier in order to prevent salary sacrifice mechanisms.

    Now such a mechanism may not be required since an annual £30k pension limit would restrict salary sacrifice mechanisms to those under £180k. In contrast in 2009/10 the annual limit on pension contributions was your annual earnings.

    True - eventually - but there's the 3 year unused AA carry forward too which would apply if not already used - or is that to go as well?
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    edited February 2015
    Duplicate post

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    So when I edit PB, does this give me an excuse to embed pictures of pretty ladies in hot pants?

    The Producers sounds like a play with a very poor taste theme. Doubt it'll do very well at the box office - wouldn't like to be a backer of it personally.
    I'm assuming you are being sarcastic?

    After 33 previews, the original Broadway production opened at the St. James Theatre on April 19, 2001, starring Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick, and ran for 2,502 performances, winning a record-breaking 12 Tony Awards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Producers_(musical)
    So what you're saying is that despite the poor taste theme about nazis, The Producers did much better than Pulpstar suggested and didn't lose its backers money after all? How unexpected, somebody should write a play about that!
    Hurrah !
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Tuition fees was a weird example of parties conspiring together to sell a policy as being a much worse/less popular policy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    When Labour had a similar policy on pension tax relief for over £150k earners in 2009/10 they had a complicated mechanism for including employers pension contributions in determining whether you were above the £150k barrier in order to prevent salary sacrifice mechanisms.

    Now such a mechanism may not be required since an annual £30k pension limit would restrict salary sacrifice mechanisms to those under £180k. In contrast in 2009/10 the annual limit on pension contributions was your annual earnings.

    True - eventually - but there's the 3 year unused AA carry forward too which would apply if not already used - or is that to go as well?
    With Labour, assume the worst possible scenario. Then assume it is going to be worse than that.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    When Labour had a similar policy on pension tax relief for over £150k earners in 2009/10 they had a complicated mechanism for including employers pension contributions in determining whether you were above the £150k barrier in order to prevent salary sacrifice mechanisms.

    Now such a mechanism may not be required since an annual £30k pension limit would restrict salary sacrifice mechanisms to those under £180k. In contrast in 2009/10 the annual limit on pension contributions was your annual earnings.

    True - eventually - but there's the 3 year unused AA carry forward too which would apply if not already used - or is that to go as well?
    One would guess that no, carry forward arrangements are not going.

    The only person who has suggested ending salary sacrifice for pension contributions recently (as far as I can see) is Steve Webb (he seemed to suggest employers would be happy to give the arrangements up voluntarily in the report I read if either that or my memory of it can be trusted).

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    As an aside, what might be the longer term effect of this latest pensions grab, on the size of funds and their investment in British businesses?

    Comparable to the damage Brown did a decade or so ago?
  • Labour screwing the private sector once again.

    Ros Altmann‏@rosaltmann·14m14 minutes ago
    Calcns used for final salary-type pensions allow members £50kpa pension (20x£50k=£1m) but DC members need £2m for £50k jtlife infln annuity
  • Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    So when I edit PB, does this give me an excuse to embed pictures of pretty ladies in hot pants?

    The Producers sounds like a play with a very poor taste theme. Doubt it'll do very well at the box office - wouldn't like to be a backer of it personally.
    I'm assuming you are being sarcastic?

    After 33 previews, the original Broadway production opened at the St. James Theatre on April 19, 2001, starring Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick, and ran for 2,502 performances, winning a record-breaking 12 Tony Awards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Producers_(musical)
    So what you're saying is that despite the poor taste theme about nazis, The Producers did much better than Pulpstar suggested and didn't lose its backers money after all? How unexpected, somebody should write a play about that!
    Hurrah !
    Hey, you kids must be very young!

    Anybody of my generation will remember Mel Brookes' film as one of the funniest and most cutting comedies ever to hit the silver screen. (It was made in 1968 and yes it was a Talkie.)

    If you haven't seen it, just get a copy and watch. You won't regret it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015
    FFS....so sick of the dripping wets and their excuses for "Jihadi John".

    Peter Allen earlier on the radio wondered if he had gone to Syria for the noble cause of fighting Assad. When corrected by an expert that he had previously tried to join Al Shabaab, he then decided based upon the strength of a vox pops of current students like "Jose" saying nope never seen any radical stuff here, that Mohammed Emwazi definitely couldn't have been radicalized at University of Westminster...and besides aren't universities all about radical ideas.....oh and that these ISIS lot aren't really any threat to the West.

    Again the expert had to explain that this guy tried to join Al Shabaab only months after graduating, that they have proof that University of Westminster has serious issues with radical and extremist material being openly shared and equally extreme speakers being invited to talk (which are often segregated) and those challenging the speakers are silenced.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Neil said:

    MTimT said:

    Can't help myself. This one is for HYUFD - Christie is political toast:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/26/opinion/gail-collins-adieu-chris-christie-adieu.html?ref=todayspaper

    Tsk @MTimT I posted that yesterday ;)

    The Times sure seems to have it in for Christie though.

    Sorry, wasn't around yesterday. Yes, the NYT will have it in for any GOP candidate who they fear could compete with Hillary in the GE. It is entirely partisan in that respect.

    But it is a very valid point that Christie shot to fame as someone to take on the unions and fix the budget problems arising from pensions and mandated benefits and that now that storyline is falling apart, particularly as Walker has risen with a far more compelling version of the same story AND has strong real conservative credentials. It perhaps makes Walker less attractive in the GE, but makes it a lot more likely that he can prevail in the primaries.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Labour screwing the private sector once again.

    Ros Altmann‏@rosaltmann·14m14 minutes ago
    Calcns used for final salary-type pensions allow members £50kpa pension (20x£50k=£1m) but DC members need £2m for £50k jtlife infln annuity

    Labour doing exactly the same thing Osborne did to the private sector once again.

  • Do you know what the comparable figures for applications filed in the US are, though? I would have thought from my own experience that that was a much better measure.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited February 2015

    The politics of Ed's announcement are a bit odd. If we assume for the sake of argument that the tax-increase side is correct, i.e. that they could raise £3bn from their pension raid, then spending that money on reducing the contribution which well-off graduates will in the future have to make to their university education is an interesting priority at a time of tough spending decisions.

    By being one, do I really constantly have to remind people on here about how idiots see this?

    We are lowering the cost of going to University. For poorer people. For young, poorer people.

    Ta-daaarh!

    You can take your Mr Lewises and your fiscal implications and your marginal tax rates and your propensity to earn and stick them where the sun don't shine.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TelePolitics: Nigel Farage Ukip conference gatecrashed by Nazi dancers http://t.co/OB8ztv7NR5
  • Neil said:

    Labour screwing the private sector once again.

    Ros Altmann‏@rosaltmann·14m14 minutes ago
    Calcns used for final salary-type pensions allow members £50kpa pension (20x£50k=£1m) but DC members need £2m for £50k jtlife infln annuity

    Labour doing exactly the same thing Osborne did to the private sector once again.

    Doesn't make it right.
  • Smarmeron said:

    @Pulpstar
    I have no idea about the content, but the cast list looks interesting?

    If you have never seen The Producers, you simply must. It's a truly brilliant comedy.

    Amongst its many virtues is the ruthlessness with which it kicks political correctness into the long grass and stamps it mercilessly into the dirt.
    I don't remember that bit
    I don't know how you can forget such deathless lines as:

    "Don't be dumb, be a smarty
    Come and join the Nazi Party"

    Lethal.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Labour screwing the private sector once again.

    Ros Altmann‏@rosaltmann·14m14 minutes ago
    Calcns used for final salary-type pensions allow members £50kpa pension (20x£50k=£1m) but DC members need £2m for £50k jtlife infln annuity

    Labour doing exactly the same thing Osborne did to the private sector once again.

    Doesn't make it right.
    It's just a less partisan way of putting it.
This discussion has been closed.