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  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    Personally, I think that if the Tories are to win they need to make this election as Presidential as possible and major on Cameron's superior ratings as an individual compared with Labour's generally superior ratings to his party. I don't personally see how avoiding a debate with Ed is consistent with such an approach and I fear that Tory overconfidence is not restricted to the betting market.

    We're having a local echo of the controversy. Anna has refused any bilateral debate (quoting the Greens in support), any debate before all parties have published manifestos, and any debate organised by any NGO. This is presumably the incumbency thing, but as we're both pretty well-known and she has lots of recent QT debating practice I thought she might be tempted. Lots of teases on Twitter ("But I bought popcorn and everything, Anna...").

    You are a teaser Nick. Tbh I am equally bemused about her tactics. Unless she can persuade the Lib Dems not to break the way everyone is predicting she has a mountain to climb and should be looking for every chance she can get.
    It cant help her that the Lib Dems and Labour are essentially offering the same fiscal plans and are both well to the left of the austerity the Tories are promising. Makes me wonder how on earth the Lib Dems could contrive to put a Tory rather than Labour Chancellor into Number 11 as well.
    I am really not sure what Labour's position is AIUI the Lib Dems and Tories agree on the future path for deficit reduction
    No, the Lib Dems want to balance the current budget while the Tories are targeting the total budget. The Tories see no further contribution from tax increases whereas the Lib Dems do. They are very, very far apart on fiscal issues. The Lib Dems and Labour are very close from the details we know of so far.
  • Ishmael_X said:

    Speedy said:

    Re the Patrick Wintour tweet

    Tomorrow channel 4 are airing an Dispatches Investigation called "Politicians for Hire"

    I wonder if it is to do with that.

    I think the title is self explanatory .

    Its election season (politicians hunting voters and journalists hunting politicians).
    I guess that because Wintour is working for the Guardian and Channel 4 are a pro-Labour TV channel I think it's a story about either the Tories or UKIP.
    Tories, then - who would hire a UKIP pol, and what for?

    Monday is good timing if it is designed to be pmq fodder.
    To be fair, last time they went after all parties, just the Tories that did bite a bit weren't very important compared the likes of Hoon who couldn't wait to get his hands on the filthy lucker.

    However, now the Tories / Lib Dems are the ones who can promise to really pull the strings, got to think they are more likely to be have been got.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848
    Speedy said:

    If this is the big news that Wintour said then its a big yawn:

    Mirror Politics ‏@MirrorPolitics 14m14 minutes ago
    Ukip MP Douglas Carswell accepted £20,000 after an anti-fraud probe
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-mp-douglas-carswell-accepted-5210890

    If this Dispatches docco is another UKIP attack, this is becoming ridiculous.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Evening all. Any chance England will give Scotland a decent game tonight? So far it has been pretty obvious they are getting paid by the game rather than the hour. I would like to see what this Scottish team can do when under modest pressure.

    On topic the key for the debates is the head to head between Ed and Dave (which is of course why Nick is in the huff). If the tories are behind or still broadly level Cameron will want this confident that he can get the better of Miliband most of the time. If the tories move ahead, of course, then he will adopt the same position of every PM in history since the invention of the radio other than that loser Brown.

    Personally, I think that if the Tories are to win they need to make this election as Presidential as possible and major on Cameron's superior ratings as an individual compared with Labour's generally superior ratings to his party. I don't personally see how avoiding a debate with Ed is consistent with such an approach and I fear that Tory overconfidence is not restricted to the betting market.

    What are the odds on the Scottish team touching 55 for 5?
    Is England playing some new bowlers?
    I hope so. If any of them show promise they might earn consideration for Ireland's squad in the next tournament if they want to step up and play for serious contenders.
    Would Morgan get a game on current form?
    Morgan's form would surely blossom from returning to a winning squad! ;)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    Tim_B said:

    What are Clegg and Brown doing in that photo with their left legs - doing the okey cokey?

    That was the Larry Grayson impression section, cut from the final broadcast
    Just as well because Dave had completely blown it!
    He looks like he's communing with the Almighty
    Or possibly trying to remember which one Larry Grayson is.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PeterMannionMP: Don't forget to set your co-ordinates for 1954 at 10pm... #MeetTheUkippers #BBC2 #UKIP #ThanetSouth
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Ishmael_X said:

    Speedy said:

    Re the Patrick Wintour tweet

    Tomorrow channel 4 are airing an Dispatches Investigation called "Politicians for Hire"

    I wonder if it is to do with that.

    I think the title is self explanatory .

    Its election season (politicians hunting voters and journalists hunting politicians).
    I guess that because Wintour is working for the Guardian and Channel 4 are a pro-Labour TV channel I think it's a story about either the Tories or UKIP.
    Tories, then - who would hire a UKIP pol, and what for?

    Monday is good timing if it is designed to be pmq fodder.
    The question is if the program is to air tomorrow then why is Wintour saying about something big tonight?
    Unless the politicians in the program are informed before the broadcast and make a statement or resign tonight.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I think Chelsea are up to something. Jose made a last minute appearance on Goals on Sunday to state our case in detail, and the club website has pages devoted to yesterday's shambles, something they have never sanctioned before.

    It must all have been done with the approval of the clubs lawyers, maybe they are set to challenge the FA?

    In what court? Were Chelsea to take the FA/PL to a civil court FIFA statutes would demand the FA throw them out of the League.
    No idea, it's probably an elaborate ruse to get Matic's red card rescinded, but they have definitely taken a confrontational stance.

    That's probably true, though I don't think it will work. Do you genuinely think that the refs are out to make Chelsea's life as difficult as possible?

    I follow Arsenal home and away and a few years ago (2010-11 and 2011-12) I was convinced something strange was going on with the refereeing in our games. But in the last few years it seems to have settled down.

    I really don't like the secretive nature of the PGMOL and really hate Mike Riley. Given the Clattenburg incident and few other run-ins Chelsea have had with the FA, I wouldn't be hugely surprised if something was going on.
    There are many hysterical Chelsea fans who have been complaining about a conspiracy theory for some time, I am far too long in the tooth for all that but after yesterday I am having my doubts.

    The Clattenburg incident didn't help but the club were in a difficult position, if a player makes the complaint then the club has to see it through, imagine what would have happened if they didn't?

    Riley was possibly the worst ref of his generation, to think he is now in charge is truly frightening.
  • Speedy said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Speedy said:

    Re the Patrick Wintour tweet

    Tomorrow channel 4 are airing an Dispatches Investigation called "Politicians for Hire"

    I wonder if it is to do with that.

    I think the title is self explanatory .

    Its election season (politicians hunting voters and journalists hunting politicians).
    I guess that because Wintour is working for the Guardian and Channel 4 are a pro-Labour TV channel I think it's a story about either the Tories or UKIP.
    Tories, then - who would hire a UKIP pol, and what for?

    Monday is good timing if it is designed to be pmq fodder.
    The question is if the program is to air tomorrow then why is Wintour saying about something big tonight?
    Unless the politicians in the program are informed before the broadcast and make a statement or resign tonight.
    Normally they are asked for comment on the allegations before the program is aired.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    Tim_B said:

    What are Clegg and Brown doing in that photo with their left legs - doing the okey cokey?

    That was the Larry Grayson impression section, cut from the final broadcast
    Just as well because Dave had completely blown it!
    He looks like he's communing with the Almighty
    Or possibly trying to remember which one Larry Grayson is.
    Wasn't he the "shut that door" guy?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Speedy said:

    Re the Patrick Wintour tweet

    Tomorrow channel 4 are airing an Dispatches Investigation called "Politicians for Hire"

    I wonder if it is to do with that.

    I think the title is self explanatory .

    Its election season (politicians hunting voters and journalists hunting politicians).
    I guess that because Wintour is working for the Guardian and Channel 4 are a pro-Labour TV channel I think it's a story about either the Tories or UKIP.
    Tories, then - who would hire a UKIP pol, and what for?

    Monday is good timing if it is designed to be pmq fodder.
    The question is if the program is to air tomorrow then why is Wintour saying about something big tonight?
    Unless the politicians in the program are informed before the broadcast and make a statement or resign tonight.
    Normally they are asked for comment on the allegations before the program is aired.
    How much time do they get before the broadcast?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Neil said:

    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    Personally, I think that if the Tories are to win they need to make this election as Presidential as possible and major on Cameron's superior ratings as an individual compared with Labour's generally superior ratings to his party. I don't personally see how avoiding a debate with Ed is consistent with such an approach and I fear that Tory overconfidence is not restricted to the betting market.

    We're having a local echo of the controversy. Anna has refused any bilateral debate (quoting the Greens in support), any debate before all parties have published manifestos, and any debate organised by any NGO. This is presumably the incumbency thing, but as we're both pretty well-known and she has lots of recent QT debating practice I thought she might be tempted. Lots of teases on Twitter ("But I bought popcorn and everything, Anna...").

    You are a teaser Nick. Tbh I am equally bemused about her tactics. Unless she can persuade the Lib Dems not to break the way everyone is predicting she has a mountain to climb and should be looking for every chance she can get.
    It cant help her that the Lib Dems and Labour are essentially offering the same fiscal plans and are both well to the left of the austerity the Tories are promising. Makes me wonder how on earth the Lib Dems could contrive to put a Tory rather than Labour Chancellor into Number 11 as well.
    I am really not sure what Labour's position is AIUI the Lib Dems and Tories agree on the future path for deficit reduction
    No, the Lib Dems want to balance the current budget while the Tories are targeting the total budget. The Tories see no further contribution from tax increases whereas the Lib Dems do. They are very, very far apart on fiscal issues. The Lib Dems and Labour are very close from the details we know of so far.
    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.
  • isam said:

    East End manners

    freshly baked (@_freshlybaked)
    22/02/2015 18:21
    How they do it at #WestHam VIDEO: How to treat fellow passengers! bit.ly/1CZo3PQ pic.twitter.com/R484sBatXK via @FootballFunnys #Chelsea

    Shame it ended 2-2 :(
    I have to disagree....
    But you're biased :)
    Prove it...


    #COYS
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    Tim_B said:

    What are Clegg and Brown doing in that photo with their left legs - doing the okey cokey?

    That was the Larry Grayson impression section, cut from the final broadcast
    Just as well because Dave had completely blown it!
    He looks like he's communing with the Almighty
    Or possibly trying to remember which one Larry Grayson is.
    Wasn't he the "shut that door" guy?
    Look at my foot!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    Tim_B said:

    What are Clegg and Brown doing in that photo with their left legs - doing the okey cokey?

    That was the Larry Grayson impression section, cut from the final broadcast
    Just as well because Dave had completely blown it!
    He looks like he's communing with the Almighty
    Or possibly trying to remember which one Larry Grayson is.
    Wasn't he the "shut that door" guy?
    I think I'm with Dave on this one.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    On topic the key for the debates is the head to head between Ed and Dave (which is of course why Nick is in the huff). If the tories are behind or still broadly level Cameron will want this confident that he can get the better of Miliband most of the time. If the tories move ahead, of course, then he will adopt the same position of every PM in history since the invention of the radio other than that loser Brown.

    Major wanted a debate in 1997 and I think Callaghan did in 1979.

    Yes because they both knew they had nothing to lose and wanted a chance no one was minded to give them. I suspect Cameron regrets giving Brown that chance, it might well have cost him his majority. It certainly left him fighting on two separate fronts in a way he will make sure does not happen again.
    I don't think the debates had an effect in the end in 2010. The waves of the Cleggasm having dissipated by polling day.

    Of course if they hadn't taken place then the leaders would have been doing other things with the media's focus still on them and there might have been something of similar magnitude to Brown's Rochdale trip.

    Complacency cost Cameron a majority in 2010 and there was certainly complacency about his agreeing to the debates - expecting to beat Brown easily and not bothering to prepare properly against Clegg.
    The whole point about the debates is that nobody wins. If you were expecting someone to win - he loses. Kennedy did not in fact beat Nixon in the debates except Nixon did not win either so he lost.
    Alternatively if somebody wins then he is accused of being prompted with an invisible ear piece and having suspicious bulges in his jacket.
    A debate where the audience press buttons to reward buzzwords treats the word 'debate' with contempt.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Speedy said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Speedy said:

    Re the Patrick Wintour tweet

    Tomorrow channel 4 are airing an Dispatches Investigation called "Politicians for Hire"

    I wonder if it is to do with that.

    I think the title is self explanatory .

    Its election season (politicians hunting voters and journalists hunting politicians).
    I guess that because Wintour is working for the Guardian and Channel 4 are a pro-Labour TV channel I think it's a story about either the Tories or UKIP.
    Tories, then - who would hire a UKIP pol, and what for?

    Monday is good timing if it is designed to be pmq fodder.
    The question is if the program is to air tomorrow then why is Wintour saying about something big tonight?
    Unless the politicians in the program are informed before the broadcast and make a statement or resign tonight.
    This is all a TSE speculation. Could be something quite different - Balls reshuffled?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,222

    There are many hysterical Chelsea fans who have been complaining about a conspiracy theory for some time, I am far too long in the tooth for all that but after yesterday I am having my doubts.

    The Clattenburg incident didn't help but the club were in a difficult position, if a player makes the complaint then the club has to see it through, imagine what would have happened if they didn't?

    Riley was possibly the worst ref of his generation, to think he is now in charge is truly frightening.

    Agree 100% about Riley. Of the current crop we don't like Mike Dean, but that's because we think he hates us! In terms of competence I cannot understand how Mike Jones is still a Premier League ref.

    What's interesting is that the ref yesterday was Atkinson. He was the ref that Fergie went for after United lost at the Bridge in February, 2011. Atkinson never refereed at Old Trafford again until Fergie retired.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Speedy said:

    Re the Patrick Wintour tweet

    Tomorrow channel 4 are airing an Dispatches Investigation called "Politicians for Hire"

    I wonder if it is to do with that.

    I think the title is self explanatory .

    Its election season (politicians hunting voters and journalists hunting politicians).
    I guess that because Wintour is working for the Guardian and Channel 4 are a pro-Labour TV channel I think it's a story about either the Tories or UKIP.
    Isn't the 'jaw dropping' programme on right now?
  • TSE leads the press pack


    Dan Hodges retweeted
    Michael Deacon‏@MichaelPDeacon·4m4 minutes ago
    @DPJHodges I think it might be to do with Politicians for Hire on C4 tomorrow night

    Harry Cole‏@MrHarryCole·3 mins3 minutes ago
    @MichaelPDeacon @DPJHodges ahh
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    @jimwaterson: Dispatches tomorrow has same reporter and same title as the 2010 episode where they stung Hoon, Hewitt and Byers over cash for influence.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    On topic the key for the debates is the head to head between Ed and Dave (which is of course why Nick is in the huff). If the tories are behind or still broadly level Cameron will want this confident that he can get the better of Miliband most of the time. If the tories move ahead, of course, then he will adopt the same position of every PM in history since the invention of the radio other than that loser Brown.

    Major wanted a debate in 1997 and I think Callaghan did in 1979.

    Yes because they both knew they had nothing to lose and wanted a chance no one was minded to give them. I suspect Cameron regrets giving Brown that chance, it might well have cost him his majority. It certainly left him fighting on two separate fronts in a way he will make sure does not happen again.
    I don't think the debates had an effect in the end in 2010. The waves of the Cleggasm having dissipated by polling day.

    Of course if they hadn't taken place then the leaders would have been doing other things with the media's focus still on them and there might have been something of similar magnitude to Brown's Rochdale trip.

    Complacency cost Cameron a majority in 2010 and there was certainly complacency about his agreeing to the debates - expecting to beat Brown easily and not bothering to prepare properly against Clegg.
    The whole point about the debates is that nobody wins. If you were expecting someone to win - he loses. Kennedy did not in fact beat Nixon in the debates except Nixon did not win either so he lost.
    Alternatively if somebody wins then he is accused of being prompted with an invisible ear piece and having suspicious bulges in his jacket.
    A debate where the audience press buttons to reward buzzwords treats the word 'debate' with contempt.
    Not exactly Lincoln-Douglas was it? The format for each debate there was one candidate spoke for 60 minutes, then the other candidate spoke for 90 minutes, and then the first candidate was allowed a 30-minute "rejoinder."

    And they did this 7 times.

    But what about the advert breaks screams Sky and ITV.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited February 2015
    tlg86 said:

    There are many hysterical Chelsea fans who have been complaining about a conspiracy theory for some time, I am far too long in the tooth for all that but after yesterday I am having my doubts.

    The Clattenburg incident didn't help but the club were in a difficult position, if a player makes the complaint then the club has to see it through, imagine what would have happened if they didn't?

    Riley was possibly the worst ref of his generation, to think he is now in charge is truly frightening.

    Agree 100% about Riley. Of the current crop we don't like Mike Dean, but that's because we think he hates us! In terms of competence I cannot understand how Mike Jones is still a Premier League ref.

    What's interesting is that the ref yesterday was Atkinson. He was the ref that Fergie went for after United lost at the Bridge in February, 2011. Atkinson never refereed at Old Trafford again until Fergie retired.
    How are refs there graded? In the NFL every official is graded after every game by the league, and the best officials get formed into new teams for the playoffs and Superbowl.

    Is there no grading of officials there? That would weed out the bad ones.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. kle4, yeah, not much of a dark lord fan myself. Although I may have one as a villain for Sir Edric at some point.

    Done right, or played with, it can work fine so comedically I think it can be great, it's just as a fan of the genre I did come across it a bit too much in too generic a fashion. I even wrote a book several years ago where the twist (done many times by others) was that the antagonist to the heroes, most of whom were decent people, was despite that not the dark lord they thought, just, well, a normal sort of ruler who happens to be opposed to them, albeit with some dark lordy type abilities.
    Very much the premise of Glen Cook's (original) Black Company Trilogy.
    Interesting - I own it but haven't got around to reading it, so should probably correct that.
    That one is sitting on my bookshelf waiting its turn to be read.

    Oh MD - if you are around purchased IX on the strength of your interview with author
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2015

    TSE leads the press pack


    Dan Hodges retweeted
    Michael Deacon‏@MichaelPDeacon·4m4 minutes ago
    @DPJHodges I think it might be to do with Politicians for Hire on C4 tomorrow night

    Harry Cole‏@MrHarryCole·3 mins3 minutes ago
    @MichaelPDeacon @DPJHodges ahh

    Hmm, i'm smelling Balls (could be wrong though).

    Damian McBride @DPMcBride · 1h 1 hour ago
    Are the last two tweets from @patrickwintour and @ladymyler related? I guess we'll soon find out.

    Katie Myler @LadyMyler · 1h 1 hour ago
    In the space of the last 10 minutes, mood has gone from calm and happy to murderous.

    Correction, back to square one.
    Katie Myler
    @LadyMyler
    @DPMcBride @patrickwintour Ha! No. They're categorically not related.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    Danny is being economical with the actuality.
    ''The IFS, noting Osborne’s aim of achieving a budget surplus of 1% of GDP by 2020, calculated that 55% of the tax has been completed, with 45% still to go. It is worth noting, however, that on the original aim of merely eliminating the current budget deficit (in other words continuing to borrow to invest), the chancellor is rather closer to finishing the job.
    The IFS also used figures from the International Monetary Fund to compare Britain with other countries. They show that the scale of underlying deficit reduction in some countries has been staggering. In Greece it has been 20.3% of GDP, Iceland 17%, Ireland 9.9%, Latvia 8.2%, Portugal 8.1% and Spain 6.7%.
    Underlying deficit reduction in Britain has been 6.6% of GDP, with 3.5% still to go. That ranks only seventh among advanced economies to date, a far cry from the idea that some kind of mad Frankenstein austerity experiment has been carried out.''
    ''Britain is further above its pre-crisis level of GDP than all but two other G7 countries – Canada and America''
    http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/002078.html#more
  • Tim_B said:

    tlg86 said:

    There are many hysterical Chelsea fans who have been complaining about a conspiracy theory for some time, I am far too long in the tooth for all that but after yesterday I am having my doubts.

    The Clattenburg incident didn't help but the club were in a difficult position, if a player makes the complaint then the club has to see it through, imagine what would have happened if they didn't?

    Riley was possibly the worst ref of his generation, to think he is now in charge is truly frightening.

    Agree 100% about Riley. Of the current crop we don't like Mike Dean, but that's because we think he hates us! In terms of competence I cannot understand how Mike Jones is still a Premier League ref.

    What's interesting is that the ref yesterday was Atkinson. He was the ref that Fergie went for after United lost at the Bridge in February, 2011. Atkinson never refereed at Old Trafford again until Fergie retired.
    How are refs there graded? In the NFL every official is graded after every game by the league, and the best officials get formed into new teams for the playoffs and Superbowl.

    Is there no grading of officials there? That would weed out the bad ones.
    Trouble is there are no good ones!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,222
    Tim_B said:

    How are refs graded? In the NFL every official is graded after every game by the league, and the best officials get formed into new teams for the playoffs and Superbowl.

    Is there no grading of officials there? That would weed out the bad ones.

    They are assessed by ex refs and apparently they have quite an extensive debrief. What I don't like is the small number of refs that do Premier League games. I think it's something like 17. In 2011-12 we had Mike Dean do six of our 38 league games, and that's not healthy.

    To be honest, I try not to moan about them too much as it's not an easy job. But I think Chelsea can feel particularly annoyed with the shove on Costa as that was blatant. The hand ball, and even the Barnes tackle, aren't always easy to spot in real time. But I get the sense that Chelsea are annoyed that they seem to be consistently getting bad decisions.
  • TSE leads the press pack


    Dan Hodges retweeted
    Michael Deacon‏@MichaelPDeacon·4m4 minutes ago
    @DPJHodges I think it might be to do with Politicians for Hire on C4 tomorrow night

    Harry Cole‏@MrHarryCole·3 mins3 minutes ago
    @MichaelPDeacon @DPJHodges ahh

    If this was next Sunday, I'd be panicking, but I suspect since it is tonight, it won't be anything major.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041
    Shocked about Rifkind, thought he was a good egg.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    edited February 2015
    Liam Fox and Adam Werritty.

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/10/18/the-sins-of-liam-fox/

    Thought his comments on the Ukraine were odd, so I thought a look at his background would be worthwhile. It certainly is a different standard for politicians.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    Danny is being economical with the actuality.
    ''The IFS, noting Osborne’s aim of achieving a budget surplus of 1% of GDP by 2020, calculated that 55% of the tax has been completed, with 45% still to go. It is worth noting, however, that on the original aim of merely eliminating the current budget deficit (in other words continuing to borrow to invest), the chancellor is rather closer to finishing the job.
    The IFS also used figures from the International Monetary Fund to compare Britain with other countries. They show that the scale of underlying deficit reduction in some countries has been staggering. In Greece it has been 20.3% of GDP, Iceland 17%, Ireland 9.9%, Latvia 8.2%, Portugal 8.1% and Spain 6.7%.
    Underlying deficit reduction in Britain has been 6.6% of GDP, with 3.5% still to go. That ranks only seventh among advanced economies to date, a far cry from the idea that some kind of mad Frankenstein austerity experiment has been carried out.''
    ''Britain is further above its pre-crisis level of GDP than all but two other G7 countries – Canada and America''
    http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/002078.html#more
    As interest rates for the UK have been so low, Osborne has acted like a householder and rolled over the debt as it's so cheap. I'm not sure why the Tories haven't explained this. Its good economics.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    I think it is a bit more complicated unfortunately. This is from Lib Dem Voice after a Clegg speech:

    "So all three parties now have a balanced budget target, and each is different. The Conservatives want an absolute budget surplus with no exclusions (but with investment rising with GDP), and Labour propose a ‘current budget’ surplus – excluding all capital spending – and falling debt.

    Nick Clegg has now created a new target that excludes some but not all forms of capital spending. Ironically, Labour’s chosen measure is what the Coalition has been targeting, while the yellow and blue parties each wish to adopt a new deficit measure.

    So what does it mean to exclude “capital spending that enhances economic growth or financial stability”? The Guardian reports that “according to the Lib Dems, Clegg’s proposals would allow borrowing to fund items such as transport, housing, and communications, which promote growth, but not schools and hospitals, which would have to be funded from ordinary tax revenues.”
    http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-nick-cleggs-fiscal-target-splitting-the-difference-40898.html
  • Jack Straw....some how not shocked...Rifkind more so.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2015
    RobD said:
    Yeap, that's it.
    Unfortunately though only Sir Malcolm Rifkind is running next year and in a seat that is extremely safe.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Guido Fawkes ‏@GuidoFawkes 9s9 seconds ago
    Ex-ministers Jack Straw and Sir Malcolm Rifkind brag to business about their political contacts http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/investigations/11428077/Ex-ministers-Jack-Straw-and-Sir-Malcolm-Rifkind-brag-to-business-about-their-political-contacts.html
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    On topic the key for the debates is the head to head between Ed and Dave (which is of course why Nick is in the huff). If the tories are behind or still broadly level Cameron will want this confident that he can get the better of Miliband most of the time. If the tories move ahead, of course, then he will adopt the same position of every PM in history since the invention of the radio other than that loser Brown.

    Major wanted a debate in 1997 and I think Callaghan did in 1979.

    Yes because they both knew they had nothing to lose and wanted a chance no one was minded to give them. I suspect Cameron regrets giving Brown that chance, it might well have cost him his majority. It certainly left him fighting on two separate fronts in a way he will make sure does not happen again.
    I don't think the debates had an effect in the end in 2010. The waves of the Cleggasm having dissipated by polling day.

    Of course if they hadn't taken place then the leaders would have been doing other things with the media's focus still on them and there might have been something of similar magnitude to Brown's Rochdale trip.

    Complacency cost Cameron a majority in 2010 and there was certainly complacency about his agreeing to the debates - expecting to beat Brown easily and not bothering to prepare properly against Clegg.
    The whole point about the debates is that nobody wins. If you were expecting someone to win - he loses. Kennedy did not in fact beat Nixon in the debates except Nixon did not win either so he lost.
    Alternatively if somebody wins then he is accused of being prompted with an invisible ear piece and having suspicious bulges in his jacket.
    A debate where the audience press buttons to reward buzzwords treats the word 'debate' with contempt.
    Not exactly Lincoln-Douglas was it? The format for each debate there was one candidate spoke for 60 minutes, then the other candidate spoke for 90 minutes, and then the first candidate was allowed a 30-minute "rejoinder."

    And they did this 7 times.

    But what about the advert breaks screams Sky and ITV.
    Well you make a good point about 'formats'.
    Not to mention lecterns and who stands where.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    Danny is being economical with the actuality.
    The actualite is that the Tories are way out on a limb in their austerity fetishism. In any other field I would expect them to struggle to get allies to implement their plans but as this is politics they might be able to rely on the Lib Dems again.
  • Poor Nuala.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    RobD said:
    Looks like I, like my fellow PB Tories, is always right, and I learn.

    TSE leads the press pack


    Dan Hodges retweeted
    Michael Deacon‏@MichaelPDeacon·4m4 minutes ago
    @DPJHodges I think it might be to do with Politicians for Hire on C4 tomorrow night

    Harry Cole‏@MrHarryCole·3 mins3 minutes ago
    @MichaelPDeacon @DPJHodges ahh

    If this was next Sunday, I'd be panicking, but I suspect since it is tonight, it won't be anything major.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041

    RobD said:
    Looks like I, like my fellow PB Tories, is always right, and I learn.
    "I is always right"... okay. ;)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    TSE leads the press pack


    Dan Hodges retweeted
    Michael Deacon‏@MichaelPDeacon·4m4 minutes ago
    @DPJHodges I think it might be to do with Politicians for Hire on C4 tomorrow night

    Harry Cole‏@MrHarryCole·3 mins3 minutes ago
    @MichaelPDeacon @DPJHodges ahh

    If this was next Sunday, I'd be panicking, but I suspect since it is tonight, it won't be anything major.
    Just the same old, same old
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    Danny is being economical with the actuality.
    The actualite is that the Tories are way out on a limb in their austerity fetishism. In any other field I would expect them to struggle to get allies to implement their plans but as this is politics they might be able to rely on the Lib Dems again.
    The point is there is no austerity fetishism.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    I think it is a bit more complicated unfortunately.
    I dont think it is. Sure Lib Dem politicians will try to make it appear so but it's in their interests to do that.
  • Well looks like the uber safe Tory seat of Kensington is about to become available for a SPAD
  • I can see UKIP and Green odds tightening very soon.

  • I've not done a thread on AV/electoral reform in ages.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2015

    Well looks like the uber safe Tory seat of Kensington is about to become available for a SPAD

    Only if Rifkind resigns.
    I have my doubts since he can be re-elected in Kensington easily regardless of scandals.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    I was pondering the 33/1 on ukip in blackburn.

    Then I googled.

    http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/help-elect-dayle-taylor-as-blackburn-ukip-mp

    Hopeless.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Poor Nuala.

    We await her response with baited breath.

    I also await the actual details to see if the accusations actually amount to anything.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,222
    It never ceases to amaze me that politicians can be so stupid to be caught out by newspaper stings.

    But the fact that MPs like Straw and Rifkind could get caught out like this makes me think MPs are made genuine offers like these all of the time.
  • Speedy said:

    Well looks like the uber safe Tory seat of Kensington is about to become available for a SPAD

    Only if Rifkind resigns.
    I have my doubts since he can be re-elected easily regardless of scandals.
    What makes Sir Malcolm a real issue, that unlike Jack Straw, is that he has a real, proper job.

    He's Chairman of the Intelligence Committee.

    He'll have to quit that, I expect
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    I can see UKIP and Green odds tightening very soon.

    You mean in general, because in Kensington really there is no one but the Tories.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Not great for Labour, I bet a heap more voters know who Straw is than Rifkind.
  • fishing exercise suggests 2 big fish out of 12 'bit'... or are there other lesser names too in the programme?
  • Neil said:

    Poor Nuala.

    We await her response with baited breath.

    I also await the actual details to see if the accusations actually amount to anything.

    Sometimes perceptions matter more than the facts.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Neil said:

    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    I think it is a bit more complicated unfortunately.
    I dont think it is. Sure Lib Dem politicians will try to make it appear so but it's in their interests to do that.
    Well I have given you quotes from both Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg setting out the position in public speeches in recent times. But if you know better Neil, fair enough.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015
    tlg86 said:

    It never ceases to amaze me that politicians can be so stupid to be caught out by newspaper stings.

    But the fact that MPs like Straw and Rifkind could get caught out like this makes me think MPs are made genuine offers like these all of the time.

    What worries me as well is not only the corruption but the stupidity. Head of the Intelligence Committee and a random lobbyist for a Chinese company appears...Now I know that they set up fake website for these companies, but there are loads of very easy ways you can check when the site was setup, amount of traffic etc, before even getting somebody to do a proper check.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041

    Speedy said:

    Well looks like the uber safe Tory seat of Kensington is about to become available for a SPAD

    Only if Rifkind resigns.
    I have my doubts since he can be re-elected easily regardless of scandals.
    What makes Sir Malcolm a real issue, that unlike Jack Straw, is that he has a real, proper job.

    He's Chairman of the Intelligence Committee.

    He'll have to quit that, I expect
    Yes, I don't see how he could continue in that position. Also the quote of him saying how much free time he has.. bloody hell. Shocked and appalled.

    Not sure he will lose his seat, unless he voluntarily steps down.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TimGatt: Jack Straw on Byers, Hewitt + Hoon in 2010: "There's anger...and incredulity about their stupidity...getting suckered by a sting like this"
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    On topic the key for the debates is the head to head between Ed and Dave (which is of course why Nick is in the huff). If the tories are behind or still broadly level Cameron will want this confident that he can get the better of Miliband most of the time. If the tories move ahead, of course, then he will adopt the same position of every PM in history since the invention of the radio other than that loser Brown.

    Major wanted a debate in 1997 and I think Callaghan did in 1979.

    Yes because they both knew they had nothing to lose and wanted a chance no one was minded to give them. I suspect Cameron regrets giving Brown that chance, it might well have cost him his majority. It certainly left him fighting on two separate fronts in a way he will make sure does not happen again.
    I don't think the debates had an effect in the end in 2010. The waves of the Cleggasm having dissipated by polling day.

    Of course if they hadn't taken place then the leaders would have been doing other things with the media's focus still on them and there might have been something of similar magnitude to Brown's Rochdale trip.

    Complacency cost Cameron a majority in 2010 and there was certainly complacency about his agreeing to the debates - expecting to beat Brown easily and not bothering to prepare properly against Clegg.
    The whole point about the debates is that nobody wins. If you were expecting someone to win - he loses. Kennedy did not in fact beat Nixon in the debates except Nixon did not win either so he lost.
    Alternatively if somebody wins then he is accused of being prompted with an invisible ear piece and having suspicious bulges in his jacket.
    A debate where the audience press buttons to reward buzzwords treats the word 'debate' with contempt.
    Not exactly Lincoln-Douglas was it? The format for each debate there was one candidate spoke for 60 minutes, then the other candidate spoke for 90 minutes, and then the first candidate was allowed a 30-minute "rejoinder."

    And they did this 7 times.

    But what about the advert breaks screams Sky and ITV.
    Well you make a good point about 'formats'.
    Not to mention lecterns and who stands where.
    Regarding the Kennedy Nixon debates, one of the oddities was that those watching on TV thought JFK won, with Nixon looking shifty and sweaty, but those who listened on radio thought Nixon had won.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041
    Scott_P said:

    @TimGatt: Jack Straw on Byers, Hewitt + Hoon in 2010: "There's anger...and incredulity about their stupidity...getting suckered by a sting like this"

    Is the right word "unspoofable"?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Ishmael_X said:

    Not great for Labour, I bet a heap more voters know who Straw is than Rifkind.

    Straw was damaged goods from the Blair era anyway, also he is not running for re-election.
    The Labour party has already a safe distance from him as with anyone with Blair roots.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Ishmael_X said:

    Not great for Labour, I bet a heap more voters know who Straw is than Rifkind.

    Straw of Iraq fame is retiring. Rifkind, the Intelligence Tsar, is not.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Not sure I get that. This is Danny's latest contribution: http://www.libdems.org.uk/danny-alexander-balancing-the-books-investing-in-key-public-services

    He says:

    "“By placing all the burden on spending cuts – far beyond what is necessary – the Conservatives would lead an ideological drive to shrink the state with damaging social and economic consequences. Labour have theoretically signed up to tackling the deficit by 2017/18, but their plans reveal no intention at all to meet this goal. For them, it’s deficit reduction on the ‘never, never’."

    To be honest I agree with his more balanced approach.

    His approach isnt balanced (well, not between Labour and the Tories anyway) it's the same fiscal approach as Labour's. Of course it isnt in his political interests to admit as much but, hey, that's politicians for you.
    I think it is a bit more complicated unfortunately.
    I dont think it is. Sure Lib Dem politicians will try to make it appear so but it's in their interests to do that.
    Well I have given you quotes from both Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg setting out the position in public speeches in recent times. But if you know better Neil, fair enough.
    I dont think the speeches say what you seem to think they say.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Speedy said:


    The Labour party has already a safe distance from him as with anyone with Blair roots.

    The candidate in the marginal constituency of Rossendale and Darwen will find it hard to shake off links to him ;)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I am quite proud of myself. I managed to sit through the entire second half of the Daytona 500. I am not a NASCAR fan - like basketball it's a sport I just cannot get into.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2015
    Neil said:

    Speedy said:


    The Labour party has already a safe distance from him as with anyone with Blair roots.

    The candidate in the marginal constituency of Rossendale and Darwen will find it hard to shake off links to him ;)
    Only a little, but you can stretch the "guilty by association" that much.
  • The most irksome aspect of the various political sleaze stories is not the sheer unambitiousness of the avarice shown by the errant politicians, but the annoyance we will get in a week's time from political insiders complaining that the public get their poor perception of politicians from a few rotten apples. The supply of rotten apples seems inexhaustible.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    surbiton said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Not great for Labour, I bet a heap more voters know who Straw is than Rifkind.

    Straw of Iraq fame is retiring. Rifkind, the Intelligence Tsar, is not.
    He is now.... Or must do.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Robin Brant ‏@robindbrant 12m12 minutes ago
    i understand that jack straw will refer himself to the commissioner for parliamentary standards & may be suspended form the PLP

    What way to finish his career in The Commons...though some might wonder what is hidden in that Chilcott Report.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    On a last note, lets see if Straw and Rifkind are the only ones in the CH4 program.

    Goodnight.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    RobD said:
    Looks like I, like my fellow PB Tories, is always right, and I learn.
    Its a pity they do not name the 6 MPS who refused the bogus requests.
    Straw is retiring so he will not be an MP. He might of course be a Lord, but not in govt or the commons. Any lobbying by a private citizen would not be a crime. It seems a rather weak expose to be honest.
    Equally it seems a bit unfair of Ch4 to pick on short sighted MPs who cannot see the camera sticking out of the briefcase or that the chinaman is talking into his tie-pin.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015
    Speedy said:

    On a last note, lets see if Straw and Rifkind are the only ones in the CH4 program.

    Goodnight.

    I highly doubt it. Last time they approached about 15-20 MPs I think and got (I think) 9 to bite to some degree.
  • Well looks like the uber safe Tory seat of Kensington is about to become available for a SPAD

    Bojo to the breach!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @robindbrant: sir malcolm rifkind has told me he would've been happy to say what he said in this undercover filming in a channel 4 interview, and adds..

    @robindbrant: ...he was not offering to get information that was secret or not publically available
  • New Thread
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041

    Well looks like the uber safe Tory seat of Kensington is about to become available for a SPAD

    Bojo to the breach!
    I thought he was already selected for Uxbridge.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Broken, sleazy red and blue Tories on the slide
This discussion has been closed.