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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Henry G Manson says that in past fortnight we’ve seen a dif

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Henry G Manson says that in past fortnight we’ve seen a different EdM with an effective gameplan

It’s easy to look at British politics as though it were boxing. Journalists will often speak of whether there were any ‘knock out blows’ in Prime Minister’s. Instead I look at the it through the prism of sport I love, which PB old hands know is tennis.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    It's a plan, How successful it will be is up in the air at the moment.
  • Certainly "going for tax avoiders" is a good move. If questioned on specifics he can always say" Well obviously I am not going to say now, before I am elected, because that would just tip them off and give them time to make other arrangements."
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Re horridneess. Re-watching 1992 election coverage. Complaining about nasty personal attacks was a pastime reserved for the defeated side.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    It gets him away from talking about the economy, unemployment ,welfare reforms or his energy policy so it must be a welcome relief.

    Problem is that the NHS, tax avoidance & class based politics can't fill in the next 3 months.'
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @john_zims
    And bashing benefits recipients can?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Certainly "going for tax avoiders" is a good move. If questioned on specifics he can always say" Well obviously I am not going to say now, before I am elected, because that would just tip them off and give them time to make other arrangements."

    If Miliband is prepared to name, shame and take on tax avoiding Labour supporters and donors including former ministers, I'll take him seriously.

    Until then, he's talking balls.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    Certainly "going for tax avoiders" is a good move.

    He's going to go after his mother, his two biggest donors and the Labour Party?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    To continue the tennis analogy, Ed has to 'hold the break'. In other words the perceived association of the tories with tax-dodgers needs to be cemented, and voters need to start believing that he would do something about it. However, past form rather suggests his inability to sustain an advantage in this way. But we shall see.
  • Certainly "going for tax avoiders" is a good move.

    He's going to go after his mother, his two biggest donors and the Labour Party?
    Family? Pah Humbug.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @JonnyJimmy
    Can Dave do much?
    It would require tackling his family as well?
    And the privileges that allowed him to get where he is?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Everyone here wants to talk about Ed's tax avoidance, why so shy about Dave?
  • Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Smarmeron said:

    @JonnyJimmy
    Can Dave do much?
    It would require tackling his family as well?
    And the privileges that allowed him to get where he is?

    Dave doesn't have to. He hasn't been a massive hypocrite, so hasn't brought his own affairs under the spotlight.

    Ed has. And I'm pretty sure there'll be plenty of papers and bloggers prepared to direct the spotlight at the murkiest and most hypocritical corners of Labour.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    "A dodgy Prime Minister, up to his neck in it"?
    I wonder what he meant?
    He must have known his tax affairs would be scrutinised, they were on at least three previous occasions?
    It's a puzzle.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    William Hague also had his good weeks.

    Though, of course, Labour may form a minority government, without doing any better than the Tories in 2001.
  • Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.


  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @JonnyJimmy
    Yes. the papers are generally keen on shining the light of truth into Labours dark corners.
    Not so keen on doing the same for the Tories, but it has always been the way.
    On a brighter note, those bank leaks appear to be only partial, they have millions of other bits of data to collate.
    I assume we will not be short of entertainment.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Smarmeron said:

    @JonnyJimmy
    Can Dave do much?
    It would require tackling his family as well?
    And the privileges that allowed him to get where he is?

    Dave doesn't have to. He hasn't been a massive hypocrite, so hasn't brought his own affairs under the spotlight.

    Ed has. And I'm pretty sure there'll be plenty of papers and bloggers prepared to direct the spotlight at the murkiest and most hypocritical corners of Labour.
    Dave "I don't comment on the tax affairs of individuals what Jimmy Carr did was wrong" Cameron hasn't been a hypocrite?
  • Sean_F said:

    William Hague also had his good weeks.

    Though, of course, Labour may form a minority government, without doing any better than the Tories in 2001.

    Good point. I remember being very impressed with Hague when he had Labour on the ropes over the Ecclestone scandal. That was when it emerged that Labour had exempt Formula One from the costly tobacco advertising ban for no other reason than Bernie had paid thousands into Labour Party coffers. Quite an outrage when you think back on it. But nothing really came of it.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Alistair
    Dave is very keen on exposing off shore tax avoidance, I feel sure he will be prepared to share what he knows about it with the public.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    edited February 2015
    Ed only made a (hypocritical) point because The Guardian and the BBC joined together to help Labour and pushed it into the headlines. The tax stuff happened under a Labour government (of which Ed was a part) which did nothing about it. Henry GM is proposing Labour continue to smear the Conservatives.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Smarmeron said:

    Everyone here wants to talk about Ed's tax avoidance, why so shy about Dave?

    What's he done?

    (Referring to his father isn't answering the question).
  • Why do we still think Ed is crap? Ed is most definitely not crap! He is merely misunderstood, and I put it to you that is the chief reason why he is so maligned and ridiculed by the evil right-wing media.

    I am certain you will agree with me that Ed is magnificently charismatic and eloquent. He is an inspiring and refreshing standard bearer for the social democratic tradition in our great nation.

    Yes, indeed: One Nation. Nay, his performance at PMQs this week must surely have been amongst the greatest (if not the greatest) ever given by a leader of the Labour Party, or indeed of any party leader! Such magnificence, such poise, such alacrity. Wow! And his wonderful repertoire of jokes would put even Harry Hill to shame!

    He is articulate, passionate, an accomplished orator, and I think a real progressive alternative to the smarmy posh boy Cameron.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good afternoon:

    With Tennis players like Ed Miliband, we should all take up Archery.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Henry G needs to go in to a dark room and have a long lie down.

  • Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.

    D. Miliband still alive, as far as I know. Or is there another brother?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?
  • Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.


    If it does happen it will be a function of the political mini-nihilism that is gripping much of the free world at present. Insurgent parties, low turnouts - all sorts of unintended outcomes are currently possible; it will have nothing to do with the merits of the Labour Party let alone Ed Miliband. Ultimately though I can't see the British voter ever being that stupid, but even if it does transpire there will certainly be a lot of laughs thereafter.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    ComRes
    Matthew Goodwin has tweeted an issues question excerpt, I think from the poll we're expecting today. UKIP are up on immigration and EU, poss up on VI too?

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/566581989059600384
  • Off-topic:

    Verbal was the assasin: Kobayashi is 'Keyser Söze' as the angered party. Brilliant film (or filem) that requires a new look....

    Verbal is too young, but a useful deflect. The Söze family where killed in the 'Eighties (hence the Söze haircut). The response occurred long before the final acts of revenge.

    Ergo: Kobayashi is 'Keyser Söze'. :)
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    perdix said:

    Ed only made a (hypocritical) point because The Guardian and the BBC joined together to help Labour and pushed it into the headlines. The tax stuff happened under a Labour government (of which Ed was a part) which did nothing about it. Henry GM is proposing Labour continue to smear the Conservatives.

    Not much complaining around here when people "smear" Miliband about his family, be it his finances or alleged lack of fraternal piety. Self-delusion about who is leading in the polls is the more usual sentiment.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Alistair said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @JonnyJimmy
    Can Dave do much?
    It would require tackling his family as well?
    And the privileges that allowed him to get where he is?

    Dave doesn't have to. He hasn't been a massive hypocrite, so hasn't brought his own affairs under the spotlight.

    Ed has. And I'm pretty sure there'll be plenty of papers and bloggers prepared to direct the spotlight at the murkiest and most hypocritical corners of Labour.
    Dave "I don't comment on the tax affairs of individuals what Jimmy Carr did was wrong" Cameron hasn't been a hypocrite?
    I think singling out Carr was a mistake.

    But at least he said it while his government was going after tax dodgers. Various schemes, like the one Gary Barlow was in, have been shut down and taxes have been paid that wouldn't have been under Labour.

    Ed didn't go after tax dodgers when he was in government. He seems to have saved up his anger about it for when he can be an opportunistic hypocritical shit in opposition.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when his dead father was smeared. Perhaps you should follow his guiding example.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @perdix
    Yes, it was a BBC, Guardian ploy, cleverly disguised by making it a worldwide story.
    It shows you just how sneaky these commies are.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited February 2015
    Alternatively, as "a senior Labour figure" puts it, Ed is engaging in a “elongated rant on behalf of the disillusioned, disenamoured and disagreeable”.

    http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21643142-labour-partys-campaign-patchwork-angry-protests-no-coherent-theme

    Though the tax row has been good for him this week which will no doubt encourage him.

    As an aside, Lleyton Hewitt [when at his prime] was known as one of the most immature and dislikeable players on tour.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher
    I prefer to follow your example. ;-)
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    Why do we still think Ed is crap? Ed is most definitely not crap! He is merely misunderstood, and I put it to you that is the chief reason why he is so maligned and ridiculed by the evil right-wing media.

    I am certain you will agree with me that Ed is magnificently charismatic and eloquent. He is an inspiring and refreshing standard bearer for the social democratic tradition in our great nation.

    Yes, indeed: One Nation. Nay, his performance at PMQs this week must surely have been amongst the greatest (if not the greatest) ever given by a leader of the Labour Party, or indeed of any party leader! Such magnificence, such poise, such alacrity. Wow! And his wonderful repertoire of jokes would put even Harry Hill to shame!

    He is articulate, passionate, an accomplished orator, and I think a real progressive alternative to the smarmy posh boy Cameron.


    Joke post of the day award!

    On a serious note, even poor performers have the occasional bit of luck. The most important figures I've seen this year at that Tory voters are responsible for the high NHS is my biggest concern figures - meaning that Lab concentrating on that will be useless; all opinion polls pale into insignificance compared to this.

  • Question to Labour supports.

    Look, I know you'd like a Miliband win because it would be a kick in Dave's nuts and a bucket of manure over the PB Tories. But it would only amount to a 24 hour euphoria hit. After that Dave would be chillaxing with Sam and his millions, and the PB Tories would be settling down for a prolonged five-year gloating festival over Ed's dour and hapless reign. Five whole years, half a decade of Ed Miliband? For all of us. Every one. Is it worth it? Really?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    I prefer to follow your example. ;-)

    Ah, so you're also angry about the tax avoidance practised by some Labour donors going unchallenged by the party leader?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    edited February 2015

    ComRes
    Matthew Goodwin has tweeted an issues question excerpt, I think from the poll we're expecting today. UKIP are up on immigration and EU, poss up on VI too?

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/566581989059600384

    That's from the ITV News poll from last night not from tonight's poll.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    And on an even more serious note, the baggies are THUMPING the hammers. I've never seen my team so engaged before!
  • Mortimer said:

    And on an even more serious note, the baggies are THUMPING the hammers. I've never seen my team so engaged before!

    Boo!
    Oh well, we were in the Top 4 earlier in the season...
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher
    Personally yes, but the public in general will make up their own minds about who gained the most from financial wheezes.
    They may even question why the papers are going after Ed for a rehash of an old story, and why others affairs should not be scrutinised.
    It will hit all parties, it depends who takes the most damage.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    One of your best Henry. I think using your tennis analogy I would describe Cameron as Sharapova. Lots of squealing but really only interested in looking good in her frilly knickers
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited February 2015

    Question to Labour supports.

    Look, I know you'd like a Miliband win because it would be a kick in Dave's nuts and a bucket of manure over the PB Tories. But it would only amount to a 24 hour euphoria hit. After that Dave would be chillaxing with Sam and his millions, and the PB Tories would be settling down for a prolonged five-year gloating festival over Ed's dour and hapless reign. Five whole years, half a decade of Ed Miliband? For all of us. Every one. Is it worth it? Really?

    I think you overestimate how much of a disaster Ed M is likely to be, particularly as his ability to actively try things that might become disasters will be constrained by fiscal realities and his generally incautious nature. The problem is not Labour supporters wanting him in - for the most partisan, even a disastrous Labour administration would be better than a Tory administration, and others probably don't think it will be a disaster anyway - the problem is not enough floating voters fear that he will be a disaster.

    Even if they are wrong about that, there's no way to convince them of that until it happens, so the Tories are screwed unless suddenly everyone wakes up to the choice between Dave and Ed and decides they cannot risk losing the underwhelming known with the underwhelming unknown. And with the economy doing a bit better, people may well be more willing to take a risk as there is less fear around (even if it should, people don't seem to feel gratitude for a job well done).
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited February 2015

    Ed's greatest hit is smearing his opponents?

    That's it?

    If Miliband gets into power this May it will be a triumph of envy over sanity.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Stark_Dawning
    Pleading is so pitiful, though quite a few Tories do it very well.
    Have fun children, and relax
    "Milliband will never be PM" !
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Roger said:

    One of your best Henry. I think using your tennis analogy I would describe Cameron as Sharapova. Lots of squealing but really only interested in looking good in her frilly knickers

    Sharapova, Highest ranking number 1, same as Hewitt, and 50% greater prize winnings. You need to have a chat with Hattie in the pink bus.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Didn't Lleyton Hewitt become the first reigning Wimbledon Champion to go out at the first round the next year? Good thing a snap second election seems unlikely for Ed M I guess.

    In seriousness, counter punching is probably a good strategy. Labour's polling is below its highs in this parliament, but still consistently above the Tories and so comfortably resulting in a win if they don't panic (and depending on Scotland). While it might be nice if Labour put in a more positive effort and go for a big win, eking it out is more sensible so long as they do not screw it up. That's possible, but given the caution of the past 4 years, unlikely.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
  • Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.


    If it does happen it will be a function of the political mini-nihilism that is gripping much of the free world at present. Insurgent parties, low turnouts - all sorts of unintended outcomes are currently possible; it will have nothing to do with the merits of the Labour Party let alone Ed Miliband. Ultimately though I can't see the British voter ever being that stupid, but even if it does transpire there will certainly be a lot of laughs thereafter.

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Sorry, I really need to go, but I will leave you something to make you all smile
    "Ex-HSBC chairman Lord Green resigns from banking body"
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31470627
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    ComRes
    Matthew Goodwin has tweeted an issues question excerpt, I think from the poll we're expecting today. UKIP are up on immigration and EU, poss up on VI too?

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/566581989059600384

    That's from the ITV News poll from last night not from tonight's poll.
    Are you sure? Underneath the question it says "Base 2,003 all GB adults" with changes since 26 Jan, while ITV say they polled 1,004 people, with changes since November 2014.

    http://www.itv.com/news/2015-02-13/itv-news-index-poll-reveals-labour-lead-in-crucial-marginal-seats/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited February 2015

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    There are no depths to the gutter partisans will sink to in pursuit of advantage. Not much point getting especially outraged at any particular incident or which side it came from as I see it, just a matter of seeing if the more egregious examples get officially endorsed or utilized by whichever side and criticise them for crossing the line at that point. Anything before that point is just one side as bad as the other, an axiom not true as often as it is supposed, but definitely when it comes to this sort of issue.

  • kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent as Labour believing that the anti-Tories will vote the Tories out. In forgetting how unpopular they are and just focusing on the unpopularity of EdM the Tories have made a few big mistakes recently - perhaps because they do think it is all in the bag. That ball, the whole business/tax issue; these are issues that remind people just why they do not want a Tory government.
  • Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Think you will find it was Ed who named her, bet she is as pleased with him as his brother is
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Everyone was blaming the Miliboys for the DoV until Ed revealed that his mother was the sole culprit. And it was only being discussed at all because weird Ed again revealed himself to be a massively hypocritical shit.

    Btw I am only one PB Tory.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Think you will find it was Ed who named her, bet she is as pleased with him as his brother is
    Put the spade away and stop digging a deeper gutter .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent
    I used to think that was mostly it, but I'm coming round to the view that they are holding on to that as the single defining issue because all the other ones which they feel should be helping them do not appear to be working, and that is the last one left which could conceivably still change things significantly, but I put the chances of that as far lower than they. Desperation rather than just arrogance I think.

    Labour I think are luckier as their complacency and arrogance in relying on anti-Toryism does not seem to be as ill-placed, even if they should have done other things to not have to rely mostly on it.

  • Btw I am only one PB Tory.

    You are Legion.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    kle4 said:

    Even if they are wrong about that, there's no way to convince them of that until it happens, so the Tories are screwed unless suddenly everyone wakes up to the choice between Dave and Ed and decides they cannot risk losing the underwhelming known with the underwhelming unknown. And with the economy doing a bit better, people may well be more willing to take a risk as there is less fear around (even if it should, people don't seem to feel gratitude for a job well done).

    I am actually pretty relaxed about it. This country needs a political enema. The population still believe in the magical money tree, and think its just the nasty Tories are giving it all to their mates and keeping the whiskey and cigars hidden from the man in the street.

    Nothing is going to change that short of them electing a Labour government, what they would consider a "proper" socialist government with Red Ed as it's leader, and one of two things happen:

    either he makes essentially the same policy decisions as the coalition, in which case people will see that their country is screwed and needs a lot of changes because there clearly isn't a magic money tree (they will also see the afore mentioned socialist government implode as Red Ed fails to carry a majority for his austerity budget given his troublesome coalition partners and his hard left awkward squad on the back benches).

    Alternatively he goes on a spending spree, whacks up the taxes and turns on the taps to the money tree we watch businesses and high net worth people leave for friendlier shores and the economy implode as interest rates race upwards and the bank runs begin.

    Either way, the electorate might eventually realise that the country is writing cheques its ego can't cash, and is living well outside its means. Then perhaps a sensible government will be elected to get spending under control and start to rebuild the economy properly, we can live in hope.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent as Labour believing that the anti-Tories will vote the Tories out. In forgetting how unpopular they are and just focusing on the unpopularity of EdM the Tories have made a few big mistakes recently - perhaps because they do think it is all in the bag. That ball, the whole business/tax issue; these are issues that remind people just why they do not want a Tory government.
    Afraid not: Tories have always had the ball and have always been pro business. There have been several Tory governments. The irresponsibility of Labour's economic competence will take another generation to fix. I know literally no-one in my generation who would ever vote Labour who isbt a member of a union or works for the state...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015
    To continue to the tennis analogy, it helps if you have somebody lowering the net every time it is your shot, a member of the crowd shining a laser pointer in your opponents eyes and the umpire not seeing any of your shots that were out or hearing the challenge for a Hawkeye replay.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent
    I used to think that was mostly it, but I'm coming round to the view that they are holding on to that as the single defining issue because all the other ones which they feel should be helping them do not appear to be working, and that is the last one left which could conceivably still change things significantly, but I put the chances of that as far lower than they. Desperation rather than just arrogance I think.

    Labour I think are luckier as their complacency and arrogance in relying on anti-Toryism does not seem to be as ill-placed, even if they should have done other things to not have to rely mostly on it.

    The Tories have helped Labour a whole lot in the last two weeks. It's since they had a week when the polls all went in their favour. The Black and White ball was a huge mistake as it shone a light on precisely where the Tories get their money from and, therefore, who gets to call home favours should the Tories win.

  • Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent as Labour believing that the anti-Tories will vote the Tories out. In forgetting how unpopular they are and just focusing on the unpopularity of EdM the Tories have made a few big mistakes recently - perhaps because they do think it is all in the bag. That ball, the whole business/tax issue; these are issues that remind people just why they do not want a Tory government.
    Afraid not: Tories have always had the ball and have always been pro business. There have been several Tory governments. The irresponsibility of Labour's economic competence will take another generation to fix. I know literally no-one in my generation who would ever vote Labour who isbt a member of a union or works for the state...

    What is your generation?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited February 2015

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Everyone was blaming the Miliboys for the DoV until Ed revealed that his mother was the sole culprit. And it was only being discussed at all because weird Ed again revealed himself to be a massively hypocritical shit.

    Btw I am only one PB Tory.
    By everyone you mean hypocritical partisan such as yourself .
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    edited February 2015

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.


    If it does happen it will be a function of the political mini-nihilism that is gripping much of the free world at present. Insurgent parties, low turnouts - all sorts of unintended outcomes are currently possible; it will have nothing to do with the merits of the Labour Party let alone Ed Miliband. Ultimately though I can't see the British voter ever being that stupid, but even if it does transpire there will certainly be a lot of laughs thereafter.

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.
    The past week has shown the Conservative Party in an unattractive light.

    OTOH, I don't believe for one moment that the Labour Party is on the side of the average voter, either. This is a battle between rival elites.
  • ComRes
    Matthew Goodwin has tweeted an issues question excerpt, I think from the poll we're expecting today. UKIP are up on immigration and EU, poss up on VI too?

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/566581989059600384

    That's from the ITV News poll from last night not from tonight's poll.
    Are you sure? Underneath the question it says "Base 2,003 all GB adults" with changes since 26 Jan, while ITV say they polled 1,004 people, with changes since November 2014.

    http://www.itv.com/news/2015-02-13/itv-news-index-poll-reveals-labour-lead-in-crucial-marginal-seats/
    There were two ComRes polls for ITV in the last couple of days, one was the marginals, the other was the one Matthew Goodwin was tweeting.

    It is not from tonight's poll.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    edited February 2015

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Everyone was blaming the Miliboys for the DoV until Ed revealed that his mother was the sole culprit. And it was only being discussed at all because weird Ed again revealed himself to be a massively hypocritical shit.

    Btw I am only one PB Tory.
    By everyone you mean hypocritical partisan such as yourself .
    How am I a hypocrite?
  • Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Think you will find it was Ed who named her, bet she is as pleased with him as his brother is
    Put the spade away and stop digging a deeper gutter .
    If Ed wants to chuck shit around he has got to expect some to head back his way, he named his Mother so it is down to him I am afraid
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent as Labour believing that the anti-Tories will vote the Tories out. In forgetting how unpopular they are and just focusing on the unpopularity of EdM the Tories have made a few big mistakes recently - perhaps because they do think it is all in the bag. That ball, the whole business/tax issue; these are issues that remind people just why they do not want a Tory government.
    Afraid not: Tories have always had the ball and have always been pro business. There have been several Tory governments. The irresponsibility of Labour's economic competence will take another generation to fix. I know literally no-one in my generation who would ever vote Labour who isbt a member of a union or works for the state...

    What is your generation?
    I can't remember what we're meant to be called now? Generation Y? Born under Thatcher, lived the majority of our lives under the simpering do-little talk-lots of New Labour, don't believe in the state as the answer to any, let alone all prayers....

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Indigo said:

    kle4 said:

    Even if they are wrong about that, there's no way to convince them of that until it happens, so the Tories are screwed unless suddenly everyone wakes up to the choice between Dave and Ed and decides they cannot risk losing the underwhelming known with the underwhelming unknown. And with the economy doing a bit better, people may well be more willing to take a risk as there is less fear around (even if it should, people don't seem to feel gratitude for a job well done).

    Either way, the electorate might eventually realise that the country is writing cheques its ego can't cash, and is living well outside its means. Then perhaps a sensible government will be elected to get spending under control and start to rebuild the economy properly, we can live in hope.
    Amen to that. This country is pretty great at muddling along in almost all things, stretching things out and just keeping going, but occasionally you do need more significant changes. I think Ed M will do ok, in that it will probably be a mildly crappy government much like this one, but he's professional enough not to be a disaster, but it frankly astounds me how, even with Labour's pronouncements on the subject, many many people seem to think either there will be no more hardship, or that Labour managed hardship will automatically be better than Tory managed hardship because they at least don't get aroused by causing people suffering (or some other ridiculous implications), even though the maths are that basically the same things will need to be done.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.

    Clearly a party funded by Len McCluskey and his associates isn't beholden to anyone, and we wont be seeing any pro-union policies or an increase in pilgrims in the public services if Labour get elected, no siree, no way that would happen.
  • Sean_F said:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.


    If it does happen it will be a function of the political mini-nihilism that is gripping much of the free world at present. Insurgent parties, low turnouts - all sorts of unintended outcomes are currently possible; it will have nothing to do with the merits of the Labour Party let alone Ed Miliband. Ultimately though I can't see the British voter ever being that stupid, but even if it does transpire there will certainly be a lot of laughs thereafter.

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.
    The past week has shown the Conservative Party in an unattractive light.

    OTOH, I don't believe for one moment that the Labour Party is on the side of the average voter, either. This is a battle between rival elites.

    As I say, I expect very little from a Labour government. But in a situation where whoever gets in will be managing austerity I would prefer the party that is not funded by and therefore beholden to the super-rich to be in charge.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent as Labour believing that the anti-Tories will vote the Tories out. In forgetting how unpopular they are and just focusing on the unpopularity of EdM the Tories have made a few big mistakes recently - perhaps because they do think it is all in the bag. That ball, the whole business/tax issue; these are issues that remind people just why they do not want a Tory government.
    Afraid not: Tories have always had the ball and have always been pro business. There have been several Tory governments. The irresponsibility of Labour's economic competence will take another generation to fix. I know literally no-one in my generation who would ever vote Labour who isbt a member of a union or works for the state...

    What is your generation?
    I can't remember what we're meant to be called now? Generation Y? Born under Thatcher, lived the majority of our lives under the simpering do-little talk-lots of New Labour, don't believe in the state as the answer to any, let alone all prayers....

    Millenials? I'm never certain if that's only for people born after 2000, or people who were children and adolescents around 2000.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Is it me, or has the confidence of the Tories, inexplicable as I saw it anyway, actually taken a bit of a hit in the last week or so. Sure Labour rightly or wrongly gained a little traction but in truth there's been little significant movement around for awhile and yet they've remained very assured in the commentariat for the most part, but it just feels like the conversation is moving a little from why the Tories will or should win, to how stupid or disastrous it would be if Ed M were to win, which feels like the possibility the public might be that stupid is beginning to sink in.

    Assuming that they will be re-elected because Ed is crap is as arrogant and as complacent
    I used to think that was mostly it, but I'm coming round to the view that they are holding on to that as the single defining issue because all the other ones which they feel should be helping them do not appear to be working, and that is the last one left which could conceivably still change things significantly, but I put the chances of that as far lower than they. Desperation rather than just arrogance I think.

    Labour I think are luckier as their complacency and arrogance in relying on anti-Toryism does not seem to be as ill-placed, even if they should have done other things to not have to rely mostly on it.

    The Tories have helped Labour a whole lot in the last two weeks. It's since they had a week when the polls all went in their favour. The Black and White ball was a huge mistake as it shone a light on precisely where the Tories get their money from and, therefore, who gets to call home favours should the Tories win.

    I don't think the B+W tie thing made any difference, it actually had very little mainstream coverage...I think most people know the Tories get most of their money from businessmen and Labour from the unions, it is factored in.

    Fink dropped the Tories in it, not by his tax affairs but how he handled it. If he had stuck to I worked in Switzerland, therefore I had a Swiss bank account, now go ask Labour's donors about their accounts....good night, that would have been a totally different outcome to I gonna sue you, everybody is at it, type headlines.
  • Sean_F said:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.


    If it does happen it will be a function of the political mini-nihilism that is gripping much of the free world at present. Insurgent parties, low turnouts - all sorts of unintended outcomes are currently possible; it will have nothing to do with the merits of the Labour Party let alone Ed Miliband. Ultimately though I can't see the British voter ever being that stupid, but even if it does transpire there will certainly be a lot of laughs thereafter.

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.
    The past week has shown the Conservative Party in an unattractive light.

    OTOH, I don't believe for one moment that the Labour Party is on the side of the average voter, either. This is a battle between rival elites.

    As I say, I expect very little from a Labour government. But in a situation where whoever gets in will be managing austerity I would prefer the party that is not funded by and therefore beholden to the super-rich to be in charge.

    And you would prefer one that is funded by and beholden to the trade unions?
  • Indigo said:

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.

    Clearly a party funded by Len McCluskey and his associates isn't beholden to anyone, and we wont be seeing any pro-union policies or an increase in pilgrims in the public services if Labour get elected, no siree, no way that would happen.

    At least there are a few million trade unionists in this country, all of whom live and pay all their tax here and have their futures firmly here too. I am not sure you can say the same about those who fund the Tory party.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    ComRes
    Matthew Goodwin has tweeted an issues question excerpt, I think from the poll we're expecting today. UKIP are up on immigration and EU, poss up on VI too?

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/566581989059600384

    That's from the ITV News poll from last night not from tonight's poll.
    Are you sure? Underneath the question it says "Base 2,003 all GB adults" with changes since 26 Jan, while ITV say they polled 1,004 people, with changes since November 2014.

    http://www.itv.com/news/2015-02-13/itv-news-index-poll-reveals-labour-lead-in-crucial-marginal-seats/
    There were two ComRes polls for ITV in the last couple of days, one was the marginals, the other was the one Matthew Goodwin was tweeting.

    It is not from tonight's poll.
    That indicates 3 polls...
  • Henry, I am afraid you're trying to construct the QE2 from a tin can. If you really analyse what Miliband has done in the last two weeks, he has:

    (1) responded to criticism from a leading global businessman by making illogical comments about his tax domicile

    (2) erroneously smeared a Tory donor as dodgy on the basis of an inaccurate assumption that his Swiss bank account was illegitimate, without realising the man was Swiss resident at the time, and then tried to deny that he had done so.

    Sure, in doing so he has kept a topic that is uncomfortable for Conservatives in the headlines, and he has had a bit of good fortune along the way with Fink's ridiculous comment about everybody doing tax avoidance reinforcing an old Tory stereotype, but neither of his major interventions were intelligent, considers or correct.

    After months of being utterly moribund, he has finally found a topic that motivates his base. As we have seen on here, his base comprises people who are ignorant about tax, avoidance and revenue collection. People who prefer their lazy stereotypes about Conservatives to analysis about the comparative merits of recent governments in this area. People who cling to the belief that Labour are better, despite the plentiful evidence Labour failed to tackle this while in Government and have shown little interest in it in opposition, except as a handy stick to beat the Conservatives with.

    That's not championship winning tennis; it's an exhibition match during a fading club player's testimonial year.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Think you will find it was Ed who named her, bet she is as pleased with him as his brother is
    Put the spade away and stop digging a deeper gutter .
    Actually I think in the week of the Milly Dowler comparison its going to be hard to beat Labour for egregious comments in pursuit of partisan advantage.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Btw What are the Labour grass roots feelings like on Trident ?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    Sean_F said:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country ma

    If it does happen it will be a function of the political mini-nihilism that is gripping much of the free world at present. Insurgent parties, low turnouts - all sorts of unintended outcomes are currently possible; it will have nothing to do with the merits of the Labour Party let alone Ed Miliband. Ultimately though I can't see the British voter ever being that stupid, but even if it does transpire there will certainly be a lot of laughs thereafter.

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.
    The past week has shown the Conservative Party in an unattractive light.

    OTOH, I don't believe for one moment that the Labour Party is on the side of the average voter, either. This is a battle between rival elites.

    As I say, I expect very little from a Labour government. But in a situation where whoever gets in will be managing austerity I would prefer the party that is not funded by and therefore beholden to the super-rich to be in charge.

    Why? Your premise is entirely flawed, given Tories are in the main the party of aspiration and perspiration, rather than lazy statist-support. But for a second pretending what you said was true - What on earth could any super rich care about austerity policies? Tax policy perhaps, but under Labour they're more likely to move somewhere more friendly and so the rest of us are worse off?
  • Indigo said:

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.

    Clearly a party funded by Len McCluskey and his associates isn't beholden to anyone, and we wont be seeing any pro-union policies or an increase in pilgrims in the public services if Labour get elected, no siree, no way that would happen.

    At least there are a few million trade unionists in this country, all of whom live and pay all their tax here and have their futures firmly here too. I am not sure you can say the same about those who fund the Tory party.

    Are you 100% certain of that statement?
  • Pulpstar said:

    ComRes
    Matthew Goodwin has tweeted an issues question excerpt, I think from the poll we're expecting today. UKIP are up on immigration and EU, poss up on VI too?

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/566581989059600384

    That's from the ITV News poll from last night not from tonight's poll.
    Are you sure? Underneath the question it says "Base 2,003 all GB adults" with changes since 26 Jan, while ITV say they polled 1,004 people, with changes since November 2014.

    http://www.itv.com/news/2015-02-13/itv-news-index-poll-reveals-labour-lead-in-crucial-marginal-seats/
    There were two ComRes polls for ITV in the last couple of days, one was the marginals, the other was the one Matthew Goodwin was tweeting.

    It is not from tonight's poll.
    That indicates 3 polls...
    Yes three ComRes polls.

    Two for ITV News and one for the Independent on Sunday/Sunday Mirror
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    edited February 2015
    Yesterday I semi jokingly said Cameron doesn't have to worry about the voters he has to worry about the mob with pitchforks.....

    Today on Any Questions I've rarely heard more raw anger. The public are incensed. Osborne's plan-getting a bunch of billionaires to say Labour wouldn't govern in their interests-was lunatic from the word go. Then to allow his party treasurer-Hedge fund donor and billionaire Lord Fink-threatening to sue was to pour kerosene on it.

    The two big losers will be the Tories and UKIP. Both who look like they're on the wrong side of this very clear line. The next few polls will be interesting
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Does anyone else get put off potentially voting Conservative by having the vile Daily Mail as a cheerleader for it ? ...

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Personally yes, but the public in general will make up their own minds about who gained the most from financial wheezes.
    They may even question why the papers are going after Ed for a rehash of an old story, and why others affairs should not be scrutinised.
    It will hit all parties, it depends who takes the most damage.

    Reality check - the general public is supremely uninterested in the minutiae which preoccupies most of us on here. They will start to take the coming GE seriously about 3/4 weeks before the election, if at all. It is pretty near certain going to be very difficult for any party to win comfortably, if at all. Even the various coalition options are unlikely to be very stable. All of this will be very bad for UKPLC - which is a shame because, for all its faults, the coalition performance has been better than most of Europe and there is still much to be done to get the economy re-balanced. A Lab/SNP arrangement would be the very worst possible outcome for the economy - it may prolong the Union for a few years at best.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Everyone was blaming the Miliboys for the DoV until Ed revealed that his mother was the sole culprit. And it was only being discussed at all because weird Ed again revealed himself to be a massively hypocritical shit.

    Btw I am only one PB Tory.
    By everyone you mean hypocritical partisan such as yourself .
    From the Lib Dem who defends his party's immoral refusal to return the stolen £2.5 million donated by convicted fraudster Michael Brown. Oh dear.
  • Rugby betting tip

    Worth backing the French to beat the Irish today.

    Last year apart, the Irish have an appalling record against the French, I think it is 5 Irish victories in the last 25 years.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    edited February 2015

    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher
    Referring to his father is not an answer certainly, but Dave surely had an interest in how his father became so successful?
    On the other hand, perhaps he had no interest in where the money came from, and the arrangements of the will?
    After all, the will would have been scrutinized by one of the leading exponents of tax avoidance schemes?
    Let's talk about Ed shall we?

    Ed got terribly upset when the affairs of a dead father were discussed. Why not follow his shining example?
    Why not instead talk about his mother? She's alive and Ed has already fingered her as the family tax avoider.

    She arranged the DoV within two years of Gordon describing them as abused loopholes to avoid IHT
    PB tories now attacking an 80 year old woman . There is no depths to the gutter they will sink to in the pursuit of partisan advantage .
    Everyone was blaming the Miliboys for the DoV until Ed revealed that his mother was the sole culprit. And it was only being discussed at all because weird Ed again revealed himself to be a massively hypocritical shit.

    Btw I am only one PB Tory.
    By everyone you mean hypocritical partisan such as yourself .
    It would be good if the moderators would curtail the gratuitous swearing of Mr. Senior.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    Indigo said:

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.

    Clearly a party funded by Len McCluskey and his associates isn't beholden to anyone, and we wont be seeing any pro-union policies or an increase in pilgrims in the public services if Labour get elected, no siree, no way that would happen.

    At least there are a few million trade unionists in this country, all of whom live and pay all their tax here and have their futures firmly here too. I am not sure you can say the same about those who fund the Tory party.

    If I were a labour MP I'd be severely concerned that anyone who isn't in a union detests most of what Unions stand for now - the threat of spurious strikes which try to hold the public they profess to serve to ransom. Latest on the RMT position, anyone?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Roger said:

    The two big losers will be the Tories and UKIP. Both who look like they're on the wrong side of this very clear line. The next few polls will be interesting

    No.

    The losers will be the public when they get the Labour government they so desperately want, and either nothing changes and the government implodes, or lots change and the economy implodes. Either way the rich, and a lot of businesses will just leave, they wont pay more tax, they wont create more jobs, they will just leave (see France). The middle incomes earners will have to pay a lot more tax as a result and wont be voting Labour again, and the lower incomes will have to do with a lot less services and wont be happy either. If that makes you happy, I don't know what to say.

  • Mortimer said:

    Indigo said:

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.

    Clearly a party funded by Len McCluskey and his associates isn't beholden to anyone, and we wont be seeing any pro-union policies or an increase in pilgrims in the public services if Labour get elected, no siree, no way that would happen.

    At least there are a few million trade unionists in this country, all of whom live and pay all their tax here and have their futures firmly here too. I am not sure you can say the same about those who fund the Tory party.

    If I were a labour MP I'd be severely concerned that anyone who isn't in a union detests most of what Unions stand for now - the threat of spurious strikes which try to hold the public they profess to serve to ransom. Latest on the RMT position, anyone?

    The RMT is not affiliated to the Labour party. I am not sure that many folk in the country hold much affection for the super-rich who funds the Tories either.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Roger said:

    Yesterday I semi jokingly said Cameron doesn't have to worry about the voters he has to worry about the mob with pitchforks.....

    Today on Any Questions I've rarely heard more raw anger. The public are incensed. Osborne's plan-getting a bunch of billionaires to say Labour wouldn't govern in their interests-was lunatic from the word go. Then to allow his party treasurer-Hedge fund donor and billionaire Lord Fink-threatening to sue was to pour kerosene on it.

    The two big losers will be the Tories and UKIP. Both who look like they're on the wrong side of this very clear line. The next few polls will be interesting

    Ah, you think Any Questions represents the 'public' - how amusing.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Roger said:

    Yesterday I semi jokingly said Cameron doesn't have to worry about the voters he has to worry about the mob with pitchforks.....

    Today on Any Questions I've rarely heard more raw anger. The public are incensed. Osborne's plan-getting a bunch of billionaires to say Labour wouldn't govern in their interests-was lunatic from the word go. Then to allow his party treasurer-Hedge fund donor and billionaire Lord Fink-threatening to sue was to pour kerosene on it.

    The two big losers will be the Tories and UKIP. Both who look like they're on the wrong side of this very clear line. The next few polls will be interesting

    Funny. I heard it too, and as much anger was directed at Salmond and Harman as anyone else.

    Anna Soubry's good isn't she?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Pulpstar said:

    Does anyone else get put off potentially voting Conservative by having the vile Daily Mail as a cheerleader for it ? ...

    No. It is one the most popular of the Newspapers both in print and on-line.. unless you think we're all vile for reading it. If so it says more about you than them.
  • Sean_F said:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 'Ed's played a blinder' thing pops up every so often when journalists (usually in The Spectator) are stumped for things to write a about and need a quick way to look like a free thinker. Miliband remains what he has always been: a crowd pleaser emboldened by the egotism of the nerd and a political sneak.

    Just the thought of this fratricidal socialist running the country makes me wonder if the country has taken leave of its senses. But if he "pulls it off" and ends up at No. 10, so be it.


    If it does happen it will be a function of the political mini-nihilism that is gripping much of the free world at present. Insurgent parties, low turnouts - all sorts of unintended outcomes are currently possible; it will have nothing to do with the merits of the Labour Party let alone Ed Miliband. Ultimately though I can't see the British voter ever being that stupid, but even if it does transpire there will certainly be a lot of laughs thereafter.

    If he does become PM it will be because the Tories have failed to convince voters that they deserve to be in government and the Tories will have no-one to blame but themselves. The last couple of weeks have certainly honed my anti-Tory instincts and confirmed to me that they just do not see the world in the way that I do. The obscenity of their hedge fund ball and their dependency on the super-rich for financing tell me that in the end they will never have a deep-seated interest in tackling the issues that I believe need to be tackled - growing inequality, the widening divide between the richest and the rest, the concentration of opportunity in the hands of an ever-smaller elite, and so on. I do not expect anything much at all from Labour, but right now the Tories need to be out of office and having a rethink about how they develop as a party that clearly has the interests of ordinary people at its heart.
    The past week has shown the Conservative Party in an unattractive light.

    OTOH, I don't believe for one moment that the Labour Party is on the side of the average voter, either. This is a battle between rival elites.

    As I say, I expect very little from a Labour government. But in a situation where whoever gets in will be managing austerity I would prefer the party that is not funded by and therefore beholden to the super-rich to be in charge.

    And you would prefer one that is funded by and beholden to the trade unions?
    The unions are toothless poodles in Labour's pockets.
This discussion has been closed.