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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The January PB Poll Average – closing in on a double crosso

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The January PB Poll Average – closing in on a double crossover?

In the four and a half years since the general election, there’ve been four crossovers in the polls, blips excluded. Labour took the lead from the Conservatives in the autumn of 2010, the Tories briefly regained it following the EU Treaty veto at the end of 2011 before Labour recaptured the pole position in February 2012 which they’ve held since.

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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036
    First, glorious first!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE 2015 General Election & "JackW Dozen" Projection Countdown :

    99 hours.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    FPT

    The Daily Mail go gunning for Nick Palmer.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2941966/Back-14-Labour-Lib-Dem-MPs-given-payoffs-55-000-election-stand-again.html

    Resign now Nick, it's not worth it !!!! :-)

  • FPT

    The Daily Mail go gunning for Nick Palmer.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2941966/Back-14-Labour-Lib-Dem-MPs-given-payoffs-55-000-election-stand-again.html

    Resign now Nick, it's not worth it !!!! :-)

    At least they don't go after him over expenses.....
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Good heavens, Nick Palmer could be a Bond villain in that picture,
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633


    FPT

    The Daily Mail go gunning for Nick Palmer.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2941966/Back-14-Labour-Lib-Dem-MPs-given-payoffs-55-000-election-stand-again.html

    Resign now Nick, it's not worth it !!!! :-)

    But the voters got it wrong in their silly little heads last time - they will get it right this time - retrod and ready to earn.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    no problems with him taking the cash - it's ignoring the voters clear message from last time....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    At least they waited until after Nick's birthday.

    As I have been saying for weeks now I do not see the tories making the kind of progress they need to remain the largest party. Only Scotland is stopping Labour from having a majority. This may still change but the absurd confidence that "Labour cannot win from here" just baffles me.

    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Ed's lack of a coherent policy structure, his bandwagon populism and his enthusiasm for attacking those who actually pay the bills in this country seems to me as a tory supporter grossly irresponsible and incoherent. But the evidence is that a large enough number are sympathetic to such a view to give him first place in the Commons. I very much hope I am proved wrong but this is not looking good for the tories, not at all.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    PAW said:

    Good heavens, Nick Palmer could be a Bond villain in that picture,

    Will Nick Palmer be shaken but not stirred by this report?

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    Typical of the Mail, isn’t it Big splash on Labour “iniquities”, less so on LibDems and a total ignoring of the fact that several defeated Tories are trying again.
    Not an easy one, is it. I can understand the idea of some sort of “severance” grant; after all a defeated MP has got to live while they line up a new job, and if they’ve been a MP for some years it may be difficult to re-adjust.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Typical of the Mail, isn’t it Big splash on Labour “iniquities”, less so on LibDems and a total ignoring of the fact that several defeated Tories are trying again.
    Not an easy one, is it. I can understand the idea of some sort of “severance” grant; after all a defeated MP has got to live while they line up a new job, and if they’ve been a MP for some years it may be difficult to re-adjust.

    Are they not differentiating between those who lost but werent MPs and those that were and got a fat payout ?
  • Mike a picture is worth a thousand words - do you have a PB Poll Average chart?
  • DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    DavidL said:

    At least they waited until after Nick's birthday.

    As I have been saying for weeks now I do not see the tories making the kind of progress they need to remain the largest party. Only Scotland is stopping Labour from having a majority. This may still change but the absurd confidence that "Labour cannot win from here" just baffles me.

    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Ed's lack of a coherent policy structure, his bandwagon populism and his enthusiasm for attacking those who actually pay the bills in this country seems to me as a tory supporter grossly irresponsible and incoherent. But the evidence is that a large enough number are sympathetic to such a view to give him first place in the Commons. I very much hope I am proved wrong but this is not looking good for the tories, not at all.

    Ed is massively over-rated - he's never really left the sixth form. It is perfectly possible he'll be the next PM - watch the economy tank, the £ fall through the floor and imagine him at the international table. Dark times ahead for the UK - I'm glad I'm out of it although my pension will certainly suffer as a result. At least where I am the sun shines a lot.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    Maybe a Labour melt down with the country finally noticing that Ed is a dork who doesn't seem to have the faintest idea of what he would actually do. But surely the polling shows that we know this already.

    Maybe a Lib Dem resurgence with all those Lib Dems who have supported Labour for 4 years now returning home. This would make Lazarus look like some sort of amateur. The polling is in the opposite direction.

    Maybe a collapse in UKIP support with those abandoning the party going overwhelmingly Tory (so that is in fact 2 contingencies). Absolutely no sign of this either.

    Maybe, just maybe, a couple of percent on each of these contingencies all working out nicely for Dave in time for the election. Not impossible but the current odds and the assumption this is going to happen by some kind of magic bemuses me.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited February 2015
    Patrick said:

    Mike a picture is worth a thousand words - do you have a PB Poll Average chart?

    I have now put one up. The PB average is managed by David. I've just created a chart from his figures. Unfortunately outside working hours you cannot get embed code that works from Datawrapper so I've done it as a Twitter embed.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173

    Typical of the Mail, isn’t it Big splash on Labour “iniquities”, less so on LibDems and a total ignoring of the fact that several defeated Tories are trying again.
    Not an easy one, is it. I can understand the idea of some sort of “severance” grant; after all a defeated MP has got to live while they line up a new job, and if they’ve been a MP for some years it may be difficult to re-adjust.

    Unlike the Guardian which consistently provides fair and even-handed political coverage of everything.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    DavidL said:

    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    Maybe a Labour melt down with the country finally noticing that Ed is a dork who doesn't seem to have the faintest idea of what he would actually do. But surely the polling shows that we know this already.

    Maybe a Lib Dem resurgence with all those Lib Dems who have supported Labour for 4 years now returning home. This would make Lazarus look like some sort of amateur. The polling is in the opposite direction.

    Maybe a collapse in UKIP support with those abandoning the party going overwhelmingly Tory (so that is in fact 2 contingencies). Absolutely no sign of this either.

    Maybe, just maybe, a couple of percent on each of these contingencies all working out nicely for Dave in time for the election. Not impossible but the current odds and the assumption this is going to happen by some kind of magic bemuses me.

    Lol - I know February is a depressing month but I'm just getting a slight hint that you're a kinda glass half-empty bloke.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
  • Cameron is Heath 1970-1974. Will Ed Miliband be the Wilson/Callaghan of 1974 to 1979?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020

    Cameron is Heath 1970-1974. Will Ed Miliband be the Wilson/Callaghan of 1974 to 1979?

    Cameron is a vastly better PM than Heath was. I remember the 3 day week and periods of time with no power when I came home from school. I remember 20%+ inflation with prices changing almost daily. I remember a country that was literally falling apart in class ridden strife whilst our PM went sailing. Even Wilson was an improvement.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    Maybe a Labour melt down with the country finally noticing that Ed is a dork who doesn't seem to have the faintest idea of what he would actually do. But surely the polling shows that we know this already.

    Maybe a Lib Dem resurgence with all those Lib Dems who have supported Labour for 4 years now returning home. This would make Lazarus look like some sort of amateur. The polling is in the opposite direction.

    Maybe a collapse in UKIP support with those abandoning the party going overwhelmingly Tory (so that is in fact 2 contingencies). Absolutely no sign of this either.

    Maybe, just maybe, a couple of percent on each of these contingencies all working out nicely for Dave in time for the election. Not impossible but the current odds and the assumption this is going to happen by some kind of magic bemuses me.

    It depends on what you mean by "win"

    From here bar events it's highly unlikely they will get a majority. The oft predicted return of the prodigal voters just isn't happening, Cameron has just pissed too many people off and quite gratuitously too.

    I can still see Conservatives with most votes and probably mosts seats though to go into government they need to be hitting around 290-300 since much below that and they'll struggle to get the numbers needed for coalition 2.

    The Conservatives biggest hope remains EdM's stunning lack of inspiration to his troops. With SLab fighting for its very existence and large chunks of England saying meh to Ed, it's the continued slump in Labour numbers which will help Cameron rather than Cameron's ability to motivate RoC voters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Most of the fury over MPs expenses was not over those who committed crimes as legally defined. It was over those who committed crimes in the court of public opinion. Those who tried it on - such as the duck house. Those who looked petty and mean-spirited - claiming for a remembrance day wreath. Those who looked pumped-up or preening -claiming for a trouser press.

    I expect being given 55 grand for failing to win the electorate over - and then coming back for another go at sucking on the public teat - will mean the Mail has caught the public mood.
  • Patrick said:

    Mike a picture is worth a thousand words - do you have a PB Poll Average chart?

    I have now put one up. The PB average is managed by David. I've just created a chart from his figures. Unfortunately outside working hours you cannot get embed code that works from Datawrapper so I've done it as a Twitter embed.
    Mike thanks. Better indeed. But no cigar - if I may make so bold - because it's just a snapshot of a point in time. The intersting thing about polls is how they change over time. I like Sunil's ELBOW chart because you can see the trends. A POB Poll Average over the life of this government would be very nice to see. If you keep the POBPA data in a spreadsheet it takes all of 1 minute to crank out a line chart over time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020

    DavidL said:

    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    Maybe a Labour melt down with the country finally noticing that Ed is a dork who doesn't seem to have the faintest idea of what he would actually do. But surely the polling shows that we know this already.

    Maybe a Lib Dem resurgence with all those Lib Dems who have supported Labour for 4 years now returning home. This would make Lazarus look like some sort of amateur. The polling is in the opposite direction.

    Maybe a collapse in UKIP support with those abandoning the party going overwhelmingly Tory (so that is in fact 2 contingencies). Absolutely no sign of this either.

    Maybe, just maybe, a couple of percent on each of these contingencies all working out nicely for Dave in time for the election. Not impossible but the current odds and the assumption this is going to happen by some kind of magic bemuses me.

    It depends on what you mean by "win"

    From here bar events it's highly unlikely they will get a majority. The oft predicted return of the prodigal voters just isn't happening, Cameron has just pissed too many people off and quite gratuitously too.

    I can still see Conservatives with most votes and probably mosts seats though to go into government they need to be hitting around 290-300 since much below that and they'll struggle to get the numbers needed for coalition 2.

    The Conservatives biggest hope remains EdM's stunning lack of inspiration to his troops. With SLab fighting for its very existence and large chunks of England saying meh to Ed, it's the continued slump in Labour numbers which will help Cameron rather than Cameron's ability to motivate RoC voters.
    One of the things I find most strange given the current polling is the palpable lack of optimism and confidence amongst Labour supporters. They seem to totally buy into the swing back theory.

    Here in Scotland that is understandable but in the country as a whole they are in a very strong position and yet they already seem to be gearing up their leadership campaigns and falling out. His troops are not inspired, that is for sure.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    Maybe a Labour melt down with the country finally noticing that Ed is a dork who doesn't seem to have the faintest idea of what he would actually do. But surely the polling shows that we know this already.

    Maybe a Lib Dem resurgence with all those Lib Dems who have supported Labour for 4 years now returning home. This would make Lazarus look like some sort of amateur. The polling is in the opposite direction.

    Maybe a collapse in UKIP support with those abandoning the party going overwhelmingly Tory (so that is in fact 2 contingencies). Absolutely no sign of this either.

    Maybe, just maybe, a couple of percent on each of these contingencies all working out nicely for Dave in time for the election. Not impossible but the current odds and the assumption this is going to happen by some kind of magic bemuses me.

    It depends on what you mean by "win"

    From here bar events it's highly unlikely they will get a majority. The oft predicted return of the prodigal voters just isn't happening, Cameron has just pissed too many people off and quite gratuitously too.

    I can still see Conservatives with most votes and probably mosts seats though to go into government they need to be hitting around 290-300 since much below that and they'll struggle to get the numbers needed for coalition 2.

    The Conservatives biggest hope remains EdM's stunning lack of inspiration to his troops. With SLab fighting for its very existence and large chunks of England saying meh to Ed, it's the continued slump in Labour numbers which will help Cameron rather than Cameron's ability to motivate RoC voters.
    One of the things I find most strange given the current polling is the palpable lack of optimism and confidence amongst Labour supporters. They seem to totally buy into the swing back theory.

    Here in Scotland that is understandable but in the country as a whole they are in a very strong position and yet they already seem to be gearing up their leadership campaigns and falling out. His troops are not inspired, that is for sure.

    Oddly one of the things which might be working in Cameron's favour is the converse of his pissing off his own voters. While his "detox" isn't attracting votes ( or at least not enough of them ) the fact that he's just a bit of a wobbly jelly doesn't actually scare anyone. So the Mandelson tactic of 2010 to scare the bejasus out of leftish voters can't be used. Dave doesn't really frighten anyone so why bother voting if he's fairly harmless ?
  • The 5% for the Greens in the YouGov is their lowest score with that firm this year.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    The 5% for the Greens in the YouGov is their lowest score with that firm this year.

    Perhaps people have seen the interview the the Green leader gave to Andrew Neil.. It was about as big a car crash as its possible to have. Stark staring bonkers...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32aqb167NkE
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    DavidL said:

    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    Maybe a Labour melt down with the country finally noticing that Ed is a dork who doesn't seem to have the faintest idea of what he would actually do. But surely the polling shows that we know this already.

    Maybe a Lib Dem resurgence with all those Lib Dems who have supported Labour for 4 years now returning home. This would make Lazarus look like some sort of amateur. The polling is in the opposite direction.

    Maybe a collapse in UKIP support with those abandoning the party going overwhelmingly Tory (so that is in fact 2 contingencies). Absolutely no sign of this either.

    Maybe, just maybe, a couple of percent on each of these contingencies all working out nicely for Dave in time for the election. Not impossible but the current odds and the assumption this is going to happen by some kind of magic bemuses me.

    Labour are maybe a default setting protest when people aren't thinking about politics. The trouble is when they open their mouths. When they start to talk about the economy, about immigration, about business, about education. If anyone saw Question Time last night, they will have seen a perfect example of how to piss off a crowd - with the inept performance of Tristram Hand-Shandy. People aren't impressed. And that is before they look at the top guy and think " what a dork..."

    Mike goes on and on about the Tories in England needing to be 11% ahead in England before they stop losing seats. All due respect but that ignores net gains from the LibDems that they will still achieve if 11% behind Labour. (The Ashcroft polling in the marginals was done when the LibDems nationally were several points ahead of current polling. Given that everywhere else already had the LibDems registering lost deposit levels of support, logic says any further falls have started to drain their last pools of support too.)

    It also ignores Scotland. Labour losing votes and seats could well rob them of any moral authority to govern the UK. If the Tories are ahead on most votes and most seats, labour cobbling together a short term coalition will be like carrying nitro-glycerine on a pogo stick. Safely watched only from a distance.

    And even the most pom-pom waving Tories here expect to lose some seats. There are several where the Ashcroft polling looks to present a mountain range to climb. But, with a campaign that I expect to be brutal for Labour, a few points shaved off here and a few points added there should see the Tories most seats and most votes. It still may mean that the Tories can't get much legislation through. But do they need to? Another few years of bed-blocking Labour is as much as is the country needs to repair itself.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    DavidL said:

    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    Maybe a Labour melt down with the country finally noticing that Ed is a dork who doesn't of these contingencies all working out nicely for Dave in time for the election. Not impossible but the current odds and the assumption this is going to happen by some kind of magic bemuses me.

    Labour are maybe a default setting protest when people aren't thinking about politics. The trouble is when they open their mouths. When they start to talk about the economy, about immigration, about business, about education. If anyone saw Question Time last night, they will have seen a perfect example of how to piss off a crowd - with the inept performance of Tristram Hand-Shandy. People aren't impressed. And that is before they look at the top guy and think " what a dork..."

    Mike goes on and on about the Tories in England needing to be 11% ahead in England before they stop losing seats. All due respect but that ignores net gains from the LibDems that they will still achieve if 11% behind Labour. (The Ashcroft polling in the marginals was done when the LibDems nationally were several points ahead of current polling. Given that everywhere else already had the LibDems registering lost deposit levels of support, logic says any further falls have started to drain their last pools of support too.)

    It also ignores Scotland. Labour losing votes and seats could well rob them of any moral authority to govern the UK. If the Tories are ahead on most votes and most seats, labour cobbling together a short term coalition will be like carrying nitro-glycerine on a pogo stick. Safely watched only from a distance.

    And even the most pom-pom waving Tories here expect to lose some seats. There are several where the Ashcroft polling looks to present a mountain range to climb. But, with a campaign that I expect to be brutal for Labour, a few points shaved off here and a few points added there should see the Tories most seats and most votes. It still may mean that the Tories can't get much legislation through. But do they need to? Another few years of bed-blocking Labour is as much as is the country needs to repair itself.
    If that's the sum of Conservative ambition, really you should wind up the whole party.

    The pom pom waveres are simply incapable of asking themselves difficult questions, such as why aren't we doing better ?

    And please don't reply with the usual litany of set excuses.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    There is the definite whiff of the panic stricken forty fiver,s from the lefties on here Total denial
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Here's an averaged chart of the YouGov polls for the last 12 months...
    http://www.mediafire.com/view/3ia6dk7chrh76xx/YouGov polls 12 months to 06 February 2015.jpg#

    There does appear to be a recent shift away from the purples and greens in favour of the reds and blues, and possibly also towards the yellow peril.

    I remain fascinated about what happened when the leaders received more media focus during the party conference season (approx data points 150-170), and question what will happen in the final run up to the election.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Patrick said:

    Patrick said:

    Mike a picture is worth a thousand words - do you have a PB Poll Average chart?

    I have now put one up. The PB average is managed by David. I've just created a chart from his figures. Unfortunately outside working hours you cannot get embed code that works from Datawrapper so I've done it as a Twitter embed.
    Mike thanks. Better indeed. But no cigar - if I may make so bold - because it's just a snapshot of a point in time. The intersting thing about polls is how they change over time. I like Sunil's ELBOW chart because you can see the trends. A POB Poll Average over the life of this government would be very nice to see. If you keep the POBPA data in a spreadsheet it takes all of 1 minute to crank out a line chart over time.
    I like ELBOW too. The only issue with it is that half (or more) of the data points are YouGov, so any structural bias in their methodology is going to be exaggerated in the chart.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited February 2015
    There is another crossover which has been pending for a little while.

    For the first time since last May, the average LD 2010 VI retention ( for the 5 YG polls published this month) is greater than their losses to departing red LDs who have chosen Labour.

    If this trend continues, then LD could strengthen and not lose so many seats to Labour. Currently the LD2010 VI defections to the Cons is holding steady at about 50% of the red LDs.



  • The 5% for the Greens in the YouGov is their lowest score with that firm this year.

    Perhaps people have seen the interview the the Green leader gave to Andrew Neil.. It was about as big a car crash as its possible to have. Stark staring bonkers...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32aqb167NkE
    Jeez, I heard it was bad, but that's almost too painful to watch.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited February 2015
    Jeremy Hunt? or perhaps Tristram....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD-fPb87mVA
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
    Sad, but true.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    Patrick said:

    Mike a picture is worth a thousand words - do you have a PB Poll Average chart?

    I have now put one up. The PB average is managed by David. I've just created a chart from his figures. Unfortunately outside working hours you cannot get embed code that works from Datawrapper so I've done it as a Twitter embed.
    Mike thanks. Better indeed. But no cigar - if I may make so bold - because it's just a snapshot of a point in time. The intersting thing about polls is how they change over time. I like Sunil's ELBOW chart because you can see the trends. A POB Poll Average over the life of this government would be very nice to see. If you keep the POBPA data in a spreadsheet it takes all of 1 minute to crank out a line chart over time.
    I like ELBOW too. The only issue with it is that half (or more) of the data points are YouGov, so any structural bias in their methodology is going to be exaggerated in the chart.
    time for the weighted elbow..
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    Peter

    I noted your projection of seats per Party on an earlier thread. I hadn't done one myself and now need not bother because it would be virtually identical to yours.

    When the Twin Towers both point the same way, other punters should take note! :-)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    The very crux of the expenses scandal was that MPs were following the "rules". That is why I have some sympathy for them. For the vast majority of expenses, MPs checked first and, it seems, were told all was ok.

    Didn't stop the scandal erupting, though, via the court of public opinion.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
    Evidence ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
    How could they? All I can say for Cameron is that he compares favourably to Milliband. And, I think that will give the Conservatives the edge, on the day.

    But, he remains the least successful centre-right leader in any English-speaking democracy.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
    Evidence ?
    Stupid question.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
    How could they? All I can say for Cameron is that he compares favourably to Milliband. And, I think that will give the Conservatives the edge, on the day.

    But, he remains the least successful centre-right leader in any English-speaking democracy.
    LOL Tony Abbott might take comfort from that !
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    TOPPING said:

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    The very crux of the expenses scandal was that MPs were following the "rules". That is why I have some sympathy for them. For the vast majority of expenses, MPs checked first and, it seems, were told all was ok.

    Didn't stop the scandal erupting, though, via the court of public opinion.
    Perhaps the elected returning MPs if they have previously received the retirement benefit, should give at least 50% of it back to HMG.
  • Damien McBride I've been a supporter of Hunty as the man to succeed Ed M in 2023 but that is hereby renounced. It's Liz 'The Chronic' Kendall for me now.
  • Spreadex's GE2015 Seats mid-spread prices this morning shows Labour on 278 seats and the Tories four ahead on 282 seats.
    As is usual at this hour of the day Sporting remains asleep, with its prices suspended... Zzzzzz.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    Peter

    I noted your projection of seats per Party on an earlier thread. I hadn't done one myself and now need not bother because it would be virtually identical to yours.

    When the Twin Towers both point the same way, other punters should take note! :-)
    Peter, I'm glad you agree with me, but my seats forecast on PB.com yesterday received virtually zero comment, apart from your good self of course ..... plus ça change.
  • Given McBride's renaming of Tristram, should he now be referred to as Dick Hunt.

    Unfortunate ...
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    DavidL said:

    What is it going to take for the tories to win?

    1) A repeat of the 2013 and 2014 decline in the Labour share between March and May when people look at budgets and elections;

    2) The usual underscoring of the Tories by the pollsters.


  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Financier said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    The very crux of the expenses scandal was that MPs were following the "rules". That is why I have some sympathy for them. For the vast majority of expenses, MPs checked first and, it seems, were told all was ok.

    Didn't stop the scandal erupting, though, via the court of public opinion.
    Perhaps the elected returning MPs if they have previously received the retirement benefit, should give at least 50% of it back to HMG.
    No. There is nothing wrong with an allowance per se,the MP has been made effectively redundant..... the problem is that it is ridiculously overgenerous. Halve it at the start ,l not pay it back.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    O/T but potentially very scary

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11393707/Putin-could-attack-Baltic-states-warns-former-Nato-chief.html

    How about using QE to bolster National Defence forces?
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Good morning all. I gather the Honourable Tristram Hunt is auditioning for the role of the Mother Superior in the new touring version of The Sound of Music. Andy Burnham is auditioning for the part of Maria and Ed Bland for the part of Captain Von Trapp.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    Looks like Abbott could face a leadership spill in Oz as early as next week after the Coalition lost Queensland and the Prince Philip knighthood
    http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/feb/06/australian-prime-minister-tony-abbott-may-be-deposed-after-party-revolt
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    Peter

    I noted your projection of seats per Party on an earlier thread. I hadn't done one myself and now need not bother because it would be virtually identical to yours.

    When the Twin Towers both point the same way, other punters should take note! :-)
    Peter, I'm glad you agree with me, but my seats forecast on PB.com yesterday received virtually zero comment, apart from your good self of course ..... plus ça change.
    I thought it was good, Peter, although I expect the tallies to be 10 seats more (and 10 seats less) for Conservative and Labour respectively.

    In all honesty, the party whose performance I find hardest to 'read' is the Lib Dems.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Financier said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    The very crux of the expenses scandal was that MPs were following the "rules". That is why I have some sympathy for them. For the vast majority of expenses, MPs checked first and, it seems, were told all was ok.

    Didn't stop the scandal erupting, though, via the court of public opinion.
    Perhaps the elected returning MPs if they have previously received the retirement benefit, should give at least 50% of it back to HMG.
    No. There is nothing wrong with an allowance per se,the MP has been made effectively redundant..... the problem is that it is ridiculously overgenerous. Halve it at the start ,l not pay it back.
    I am not sure that 'redundant' is the right word. The MP's job still exists, but the electorate has effectively sacked the incumbent, and appointed somebody else.

    I accept that an MP's future will be affected by national circumstances, but if he or she was 'sacked' for being incompetent, then should redundancy be payable?

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Blue_rog said:

    O/T but potentially very scary

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11393707/Putin-could-attack-Baltic-states-warns-former-Nato-chief.html

    How about using QE to bolster National Defence forces?

    Some of the Baltic states asked about a year ago for NATO military presence in their countries - they too have a lot of ex-Russians living there or at least Russian sympathisers.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    Peter

    I noted your projection of seats per Party on an earlier thread. I hadn't done one myself and now need not bother because it would be virtually identical to yours.

    When the Twin Towers both point the same way, other punters should take note! :-)
    Peter, I'm glad you agree with me, but my seats forecast on PB.com yesterday received virtually zero comment, apart from your good self of course ..... plus ça change.
    I missed it. Could you re-post it please? @PtP
  • Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
    How could they? All I can say for Cameron is that he compares favourably to Milliband. And, I think that will give the Conservatives the edge, on the day.

    But, he remains the least successful centre-right leader in any English-speaking democracy.
    As I posted the other day, his stats when compared with Canada, Australia, New Zealand or even the US, over the last five years, are not flattering.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Blue_rog said:

    O/T but potentially very scary

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11393707/Putin-could-attack-Baltic-states-warns-former-Nato-chief.html

    How about using QE to bolster National Defence forces?

    Attacking a full NATO member is probably a bit much, even for Putin. We would have to respond with force. Of course Putin - like dictators before him - might assume that we are weak and cowardly and not willing to fight. He might regard it as an efficient way of recreating the Soviet empire. But it would come at an enormous price.

    Even if the Europeans and the US decided not to fight, it would inevitably mean an end to gas imports from Russia. And for the next five years (at least) Russia has no other markets for gas. So, at a time when oil prices have halved, he would be cutting off his gas revenues. The current Russian recession (which is gathering pace) would probably turn into a full blow depression.
  • Anyone else notice that when You Gov show a Tory lead, they also lead with 18-24 year olds.This is odd as no other pollster shows the Tories leading with this sector.If You Gov is to retain any credibility they need to find the reason for this anomaly.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Financier said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    The very crux of the expenses scandal was that MPs were following the "rules". That is why I have some sympathy for them. For the vast majority of expenses, MPs checked first and, it seems, were told all was ok.

    Didn't stop the scandal erupting, though, via the court of public opinion.
    Perhaps the elected returning MPs if they have previously received the retirement benefit, should give at least 50% of it back to HMG.
    I'm actually intensely relaxed about them keeping it.

    The system is to help people with no discernible skills whatsoever* to transition into the real world. What they do and how they approach their post-parliament life is another matter. Including going back into the fray.

    *NPXMPCPPC - I appreciate you have plenty of skills...!
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    As I pop over to read the last couple of threads, a little question for our left leaning members.

    As a result of the sheer panic created by the Ashcroft Scottish poll, which English marginal seats might lose some of Labour's resources in order to be directed towards Scottish seats like wee Dougie Alexander's, Currant Bun's and the Smurf's?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Financier said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T but potentially very scary

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11393707/Putin-could-attack-Baltic-states-warns-former-Nato-chief.html

    How about using QE to bolster National Defence forces?

    Some of the Baltic states asked about a year ago for NATO military presence in their countries - they too have a lot of ex-Russians living there or at least Russian sympathisers.
    There are substantial (20-40%) Russian minorities across the Baltic states. That being said, the (ethnic) Russians I know in Latvia much prefer Latvia to Russia.
  • Given McBride's renaming of Tristram, should he now be referred to as Dick Hunt.

    Unfortunate ...

    Better than Mike Hunt......
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Gadfly said:

    Financier said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    The very crux of the expenses scandal was that MPs were following the "rules". That is why I have some sympathy for them. For the vast majority of expenses, MPs checked first and, it seems, were told all was ok.

    Didn't stop the scandal erupting, though, via the court of public opinion.
    Perhaps the elected returning MPs if they have previously received the retirement benefit, should give at least 50% of it back to HMG.
    No. There is nothing wrong with an allowance per se,the MP has been made effectively redundant..... the problem is that it is ridiculously overgenerous. Halve it at the start ,l not pay it back.
    I am not sure that 'redundant' is the right word. The MP's job still exists, but the electorate has effectively sacked the incumbent, and appointed somebody else.

    I accept that an MP's future will be affected by national circumstances, but if he or she was 'sacked' for being incompetent, then should redundancy be payable?

    I don't think that's necessarily fair. Any number of good constituency MP's can get booted out by sentiment of the nation at a GE.. it doesn't mean that they are all bad, just the lobby fodder are.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    Peter

    I noted your projection of seats per Party on an earlier thread. I hadn't done one myself and now need not bother because it would be virtually identical to yours.

    When the Twin Towers both point the same way, other punters should take note! :-)
    Peter, I'm glad you agree with me, but my seats forecast on PB.com yesterday received virtually zero comment, apart from your good self of course ..... plus ça change.
    Well, if you're pretty much on the money, there's not a lot to say.

    And if you give numbers instead of bullsh*t, there isn't much scope for argument.

    And if you're not in the business of talking your team up, you're not going to generate a great deal of support.

    As you say, plus ca change....
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Why can't the Tories break through in the polls?

    The problems of the execrable Tony Abbott down under provide part of the answer.

    Rightwing governments aren't at all popular. That's why I don't expect a swingback here.
  • DavidL said:



    It depends on what you mean by "win"

    From here bar events it's highly unlikely they will get a majority. The oft predicted return of the prodigal voters just isn't happening, Cameron has just pissed too many people off and quite gratuitously too.

    I can still see Conservatives with most votes and probably mosts seats though to go into government they need to be hitting around 290-300 since much below that and they'll struggle to get the numbers needed for coalition 2.

    The Conservatives biggest hope remains EdM's stunning lack of inspiration to his troops. With SLab fighting for its very existence and large chunks of England saying meh to Ed, it's the continued slump in Labour numbers which will help Cameron rather than Cameron's ability to motivate RoC voters.

    One of the things I find most strange given the current polling is the palpable lack of optimism and confidence amongst Labour supporters. They seem to totally buy into the swing back theory.

    Here in Scotland that is understandable but in the country as a whole they are in a very strong position and yet they already seem to be gearing up their leadership campaigns and falling out. His troops are not inspired, that is for sure.

    Oddly one of the things which might be working in Cameron's favour is the converse of his pissing off his own voters. While his "detox" isn't attracting votes ( or at least not enough of them ) the fact that he's just a bit of a wobbly jelly doesn't actually scare anyone. So the Mandelson tactic of 2010 to scare the bejasus out of leftish voters can't be used. Dave doesn't really frighten anyone so why bother voting if he's fairly harmless ?
    A similar thing works for EdM - he may be useless but he's weedy, nerdy, unthreateningly useless.

    Very different to Kinnock in 1992 who appeared in-your-face aggressive and was going to ravish the incomes, savings and house prices of Middle England with his army of Scottish socialists.

    EdM wont even have the army of Scottish Socialists.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    rcs1000 said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T but potentially very scary

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11393707/Putin-could-attack-Baltic-states-warns-former-Nato-chief.html

    How about using QE to bolster National Defence forces?

    Attacking a full NATO member is probably a bit much, even for Putin. We would have to respond with force. Of course Putin - like dictators before him - might assume that we are weak and cowardly and not willing to fight. He might regard it as an efficient way of recreating the Soviet empire. But it would come at an enormous price.

    Even if the Europeans and the US decided not to fight, it would inevitably mean an end to gas imports from Russia. And for the next five years (at least) Russia has no other markets for gas. So, at a time when oil prices have halved, he would be cutting off his gas revenues. The current Russian recession (which is gathering pace) would probably turn into a full blow depression.
    If NATO didn't respond to an attack on the Baltic States, then the alliance would effectively have come to an end. The other Eastern European states would have to come to terms with Russia very rapidly.

    And, I wonder if Western Europeans would care very much.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Tristram Hunt should be sent to see The Penguin to further his education...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujxDA9VsQG4
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Chrome's new tabs look slightly different than before. What's the point of such a small change? Except to irritate me, obviously.

    Watched a small amount of QT. Was amused by the mockery of Tristram Hunt.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    edited February 2015
    BenM Though Abbott could well be replaced by the more Cameron like Bishop or Turnbull who poll better, certainly his cuts have proved unpopular, agreed, a spill motion will be put forward on Tuesday as MPs have broken cover calling for 1 today
  • F1: Force India blocks Marussia's return:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/31158612

    Marussia wanted to use the 2014 car, but that required unanimous agreement. Force India vetoed, although other teams were against it too.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    BenM said:

    Why can't the Tories break through in the polls?

    The problems of the execrable Tony Abbott down under provide part of the answer.

    Rightwing governments aren't at all popular. That's why I don't expect a swingback here.

    Nobody likes their parents say they tell them they can't have chocolate and chips for breakfast either.

    Boo hoo.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    Martin Kettle in the Guardian would agree:

    The other underlying reason is the wider Labour failure to impress either its own loyalists or its rivals that it is a plausible government in waiting. Here, the buck stops with Ed Miliband. Labour’s fundamental failure is not really that it is too rightwing or too leftwing. Its failure is that it does not provide a clear and plausible account of what it would actually do in office as a government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/labour-failure-scotland-battle-britain-ed-miliband-gordon-brown?CMP=share_btn_tw
    I saw that quote on one of the threads last night and thought it was spot on. But surely Ed being useless is priced into the polling by now? He has been useless for years.
    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    The British public doesn't relish 5 years of any of the candidates for PM.
    Evidence ?
    Stupid question.
    Apart from inside the Beeb when Tony won - when was there ever a mass celebration of a new PM.

    There were cheers when Gordon was finally dragged out I guess..
  • Sean Kemp tweets : Uneasy night's sleep for Labour press officers as they wonder which one of them will be told to work up a list of supportive nuns tomorrow.
  • What did Hunt actually say about nuns?
  • A quick question to any authors here on PB if I may (MorrisDancer, SeanT, etc?). I have written a short business book. I want to self-publish but am a complete virgin in this area. What's the best way to turn my intellectual property into money in the most hassle-free way?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T but potentially very scary

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11393707/Putin-could-attack-Baltic-states-warns-former-Nato-chief.html

    How about using QE to bolster National Defence forces?

    Some of the Baltic states asked about a year ago for NATO military presence in their countries - they too have a lot of ex-Russians living there or at least Russian sympathisers.
    There are substantial (20-40%) Russian minorities across the Baltic states. That being said, the (ethnic) Russians I know in Latvia much prefer Latvia to Russia.
    We have been working in Lithuania for the last three years and there are definite splits among the age groups as well as nationalities.

    When Lithuania came out of the USSR, there was a lot of unemployment as that country acclimatised to a capitalist economy. The younger people did and do enjoy the economic opportunities offered. However, some of the older ones (who had been brought up as part of the USSR and had experienced nothing different) were used to the certainty of employment for life (even at a low income) and still hanker after those days of economic certainty and to a ;large degree lack of personal responsibility for their own economic past, present and future.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    What did Hunt actually say about nuns?

    http://order-order.com/2015/02/06/watch-tristram-hunts-question-time-nuns-slur/

    Not what he said - but the sneering tone used.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    BenM said:

    Why can't the Tories break through in the polls?

    The problems of the execrable Tony Abbott down under provide part of the answer.

    Rightwing governments aren't at all popular. That's why I don't expect a swingback here.

    Left-wing governments aren't at all popular, either.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    edited February 2015
    Has Cameron underwhelmed against my hopes when I voted for him as party leader? Sure.

    But he has never been a Conservative Prime Minister. The electorate didn't trust him with a majority. They told him to work with another party to undo the damage Labour had done to the economy. And so for five years he has been a coalition Prime Minister, who has held that coalition together, as the voters wanted, and delivered a stronger economic turn around - especially on jobs and growth - than most would have expected.

    Will the voters be grateful? They should be, but...only grudgingly at best. Has the Opoosition come up with a programme that would deliver anything better? No. Have they made a case to "throw out the bums"? Nope.

    But still, the voters aren't saying what they want. Which may mean they are toying with politicians. Or genuinely, haven't got a clue what they want. My gut instinct still tells me that ultimately they don't want Ed Miliband as Prime Minister and will vote accordingly.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Gadfly said:

    Financier said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am no supporter of NPXMP but as usual the Daily Heil playing the man/woman , not the ball. They were the rules and if they were entitled to it, so be it. Its the rules that are wrong..

    The very crux of the expenses scandal was that MPs were following the "rules". That is why I have some sympathy for them. For the vast majority of expenses, MPs checked first and, it seems, were told all was ok.

    Didn't stop the scandal erupting, though, via the court of public opinion.
    Perhaps the elected returning MPs if they have previously received the retirement benefit, should give at least 50% of it back to HMG.
    No. There is nothing wrong with an allowance per se,the MP has been made effectively redundant..... the problem is that it is ridiculously overgenerous. Halve it at the start ,l not pay it back.
    I am not sure that 'redundant' is the right word. The MP's job still exists, but the electorate has effectively sacked the incumbent, and appointed somebody else.

    I accept that an MP's future will be affected by national circumstances, but if he or she was 'sacked' for being incompetent, then should redundancy be payable?

    I don't think that's necessarily fair. Any number of good constituency MP's can get booted out by sentiment of the nation at a GE.. it doesn't mean that they are all bad, just the lobby fodder are.
    I accept your point, and thought my original response said as much. I do however think it odd that badly behaved MPs are also entitled to redundancy.

    That said, if MPs get booted out en masse because the country do not approve of the way their political party is behaving, then surely they must take some blame for that behaviour.

  • Mr. Patrick, I'll send you a Vanilla message.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Tory Record in government 1:

    NHS reorganisation was disastrous, says King's Fund

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31145600

    Tory Record in government 2:

    George Osborne needlessly shrank 5% off GDP with 2010 cuts, says thinktank

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/05/george-osborne-2010-spending-cuts-shrank-uk-gdp-5-percent
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    One of my favourite ever Gene Hunt lines was "he looks as nervous as a small nun at a penguin shoot". Perhaps the PM could use this at PMQs next week?
  • Mr. Patrick, I'll send you a Vanilla message.

    Thank 'ee kindly....
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    TGOHF said:

    What did Hunt actually say about nuns?

    http://order-order.com/2015/02/06/watch-tristram-hunts-question-time-nuns-slur/

    Not what he said - but the sneering tone used.

    Tristram Hunt carries on about qualified teachers, but fails to recognise that plenty of qualified teachers are simply not up to the job. Getting the QTS badge is relatively straightforward. Developing into a good teacher is another matter entirely.

    I find it odd that Hunt keeps banging this drum, given that he attended UCS, which as an independent school, is not obliged to to employ qualified teachers.

    We should perhaps also ask what qualifies Hunt to be an MP?
  • BenM said:

    Tory Record in government 1:

    NHS reorganisation was disastrous, says King's Fund

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31145600

    Tory Record in government 2:

    George Osborne needlessly shrank 5% off GDP with 2010 cuts, says thinktank

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/05/george-osborne-2010-spending-cuts-shrank-uk-gdp-5-percent

    I guess that explains Labour's 10 point lead then.......
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Two Labour Councillors give up on their party.

    http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/disillusioned_councillors_quit_party_1_3944528

    So much for the awe inspiring leadership of Ed M.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    BenM said:

    Tory Record in government 1:

    NHS reorganisation was disastrous, says King's Fund

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31145600

    Tory Record in government 2:

    George Osborne needlessly shrank 5% off GDP with 2010 cuts, says thinktank

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/05/george-osborne-2010-spending-cuts-shrank-uk-gdp-5-percent

    I think that 5% figure is up there with Blanchflower's 5 m unemployed.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    I must confess how anyone in their heart of hearts thinks Ed is up to being PM of this country baffles me too but that is because I am a tory supporter and is not evidence that the rest of the population think or will think the same.

    David - I fear you are right. The Great British Public simply doesn't seem to relish another five years of Cameron as Prime Minister and that opinion ain't going to change over the next 3 months. Meanwhile, the question of whether or not Miliband is fit for office is something of a sideshow by comparison.
    Peter

    I noted your projection of seats per Party on an earlier thread. I hadn't done one myself and now need not bother because it would be virtually identical to yours.

    When the Twin Towers both point the same way, other punters should take note! :-)
    Peter, I'm glad you agree with me, but my seats forecast on PB.com yesterday received virtually zero comment, apart from your good self of course ..... plus ça change.
    I missed it. Could you re-post it please? @PtP
    foxinsoxuk - here are my seat predictions from yesterday, showing how I see the best and worst outcomes from a Tory perspective. In a later post I produced an average of these two sets of results which as I remarked were uncannily close to the current spread-betting prices:

    The election models of Stephen Fisher and Others factor in a late incumbency swing to the Tories as well as a "ShyTory" factor - hence the difference between their projections and the forecasts based on the current polls.
    With just 13 weeks to go before polling day, no one knows to what extent such factors will actually come into play.
    My own guess is that the reasonably feasible best and worst cases from a Tory perspective might look something like this:

    Party...............Tory Best Case .............Tory Worst case
    Con .................... 295 ................................ 260
    Lab ......................265 ................................ 300
    Lib Dem ............... 20 .................................. 30
    SNP ..................... 45 ................................. 27
    UKIP ...................... 2 ................................. 12
    N.I. ....................... 18 .................................. 18
    Others .................... 5 ................................... 3

    Total .................. 650 ................................ 650

    Tory+LD+DUP = 323 Lab+LD = .............. 330

    Still a fair amount to play for, but the above numbers appear to significantly favour Labour in terms of the various possible permutations.
  • I'm surprised that the PB Tories are desperate to paint a perfectly human reaction by the Shedsec to the insanity of having children brainwashed in superstition by age five as a disaster for Labour.

    Actually I lie. I'm not surprised at all. Hope all are well!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    BenM said:

    Tory Record in government 1:

    NHS reorganisation was disastrous, says King's Fund

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31145600

    Tory Record in government 2:

    George Osborne needlessly shrank 5% off GDP with 2010 cuts, says thinktank

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/05/george-osborne-2010-spending-cuts-shrank-uk-gdp-5-percent

    Missed a bit Ben..

    ""The King's Fund says that in the past two years, the focus has rightly shifted to improving patient safety and quality of care as well as treating more people at home rather than in hospital.

    There was also criticism of Labour, who, the King's Fund says, is "crying wolf" with "ill-founded" claims about the NHS being privatised."
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    I'm surprised that the PB Tories are desperate to paint a perfectly human reaction by the Shedsec to the insanity of having children brainwashed in superstition by age five as a disaster for Labour.

    Actually I lie. I'm not surprised at all. Hope all are well!

    Perhaps Labour should propose banning apartheid style Catholic schools in Scotland then ?

    Should be a real vote winner..
This discussion has been closed.