NOM does look quite likely. Does anyone know if there are any efforts being made to communicate the 'coalition experience' in general terms to Labour? Given there's a reasonable likelihood that they may be involved in such a thing it seems sensible that some attempt to pass on the lessons learned should be made.
I know there are similar arrangements for the opposition with regards to individual departments, and I wonder whether that extends to government as a whole. (It should)
If the Conservatives are going to go into a state of civil war whilst Ed Miliband is leading a piss weak minority Labour Gov't then they'll deserve to be out of power for a generation.
Say what you like about Labour but apart from a few recent wobbles they've kept a large amount of discipline through the course of this parliament.
Sorry Richard but I don't take you every forecast as gospel, especially not this one.
It was your forecast! I was just carrying your correct logic through to the reality of the likely parliamentary arithmetic, and the likely effect on the Conservative Party.
It was not my forecast but yours. You always paint a picture of a generation of Labour dominance if UKIP inclined voters are foolish enough to vote UKIP rather than the way you would prefer them to.
In any case, I will be trying harder than possibly an other PBer to ensure one Labour MP does not retain their seat, while my vote will not help Labour either as they cant win my constituency
NOM does look quite likely. Does anyone know if there are any efforts being made to communicate the 'coalition experience' in general terms to Labour? Given there's a reasonable likelihood that they may be involved in such a thing it seems sensible that some attempt to pass on the lessons learned should be made.
I know there are similar arrangements for the opposition with regards to individual departments, and I wonder whether that extends to government as a whole. (It should)
They did have two terms in coalition in Scotland.
Of course, London HQ may think there is nothing to learn ...
Wow. Conservatives are in full panic/abuse mode today. The day David Cameron's credibility was finally shot for good.
I'm off for a lovely dinner with friends. I won't be posting, except to say I have decided not to vote Conservative in my constituency next year, and vote for UKIP instead.
Ironically, an economically inept Labour government - following the flightpath (sic) of M. Hollande across La Manche - would be most effective at reducing immigration. No economic growth, no jobs, no immigrants, no problem. Vote Ed, don't need Nige!
Seriously, though, we all need to calm down. Most on here would not change their vote because they are committed and keen politicos, amateur or professional.
The voters will decide the election, not us, and the political parties are well aware that they need to steer a careful course between radicalism and realism. UKIP's problem is that it has no national governing track record on which to base its claim to realism.
In any case, I will be trying harder than possibly an other PBer to ensure one Labour MP does not retain their seat, while my vote will not help Labour either as they cant win my constituency
Won't not living in the constituency you are standing in (good luck at the selection!) be quite detrimental in the election?
You always paint a picture of a generation of Labour dominance if UKIP inclined voters are foolish enough to vote UKIP rather than the way you would prefer them to.
Indeed so.
Have you considered the possibility that I might be right? I do after all remember vividly the nearest equivalent experience we have had in the UK.
In any case, I will be trying harder than possibly an other PBer to ensure one Labour MP does not retain their seat, while my vote will not help Labour either as they cant win my constituency
Won't not living in the constituency you are standing in (good luck at the selection!) be quite detrimental in the election?
Hmm - before that why wouldn't you take up Richard's bet ? Why the big caveat about official negotiations with all EU authorities blah blah ? Seems like you are trying to trick me.
The bet should be if Cam wins a majority will there be a Uk wide referendum held on EU membership with the option of out on the table.
I'm not trying to trick you. I just want to bet on a proper referendum happening: in versus out on the basis of a fixed renegotiated new settlement. I don't want to get screwed because of Cameron's slipperiness by with a referendum of "out versus backing Cameron to renegotiate further" or something like that.
If the Conservatives are going to go into a state of civil war whilst Ed Miliband is leading a piss weak minority Labour Gov't then they'll deserve to be out of power for a generation.
Say what you like about Labour but apart from a few recent wobbles they've kept a large amount of discipline through the course of this parliament.
Labour's discipline is partly due to them having quite a lot of career politicians at the top. There are few arguments over policy because policy isn't something to hang your hat on. All parties have the same trend. Tory bickering could be a sign of health therefore. I don't think it is though. More likely that some of their career politicians are too daft to realise what career politics is all about.
It'd be nice to have someone of merit in politics. We may have to wait a while.
Ironically, an economically inept Labour government - following the flightpath (sic) of M. Hollande across La Manche - would be most effective at reducing immigration. No economic growth, no jobs, no immigrants, no problem. Vote Ed, don't need Nige!
Seriously, though, we all need to calm down. Most on here would not change their vote because they are committed and keen politicos, amateur or professional.
The voters will decide the election, not us, and the political parties are well aware that they need to steer a careful course between radicalism and realism. UKIP's problem is that it has no national governing track record on which to base its claim to realism.
We've had two prominent posters on here move from the Tories to UKIP in just the last 48 hours.
In any case, I will be trying harder than possibly an other PBer to ensure one Labour MP does not retain their seat, while my vote will not help Labour either as they cant win my constituency
Won't not living in the constituency you are standing in (good luck at the selection!) be quite detrimental in the election?
Possibly, yes, but I cant stand in the constituency I live, and UKIP candidates might be a bit thin on the ground in North London..
I haven't been selected yet anyway, but if I win I will be happy to live In Upper St or somewhere similarly pleasant!
Krishnan Guru-Murthy @krishgm 22 mins22 minutes ago Just recorded an interview with Theresa May in which she refuses to say these immigration measures will mean they hit the migrant target
You always paint a picture of a generation of Labour dominance if UKIP inclined voters are foolish enough to vote UKIP rather than the way you would prefer them to.
Indeed so.
Have you considered the possibility that I might be right? I do after all remember vividly the nearest equivalent experience we have had in the UK.
Wow. Conservatives are in full panic/abuse mode today. The day David Cameron's credibility was finally shot for good.
I'm off for a lovely dinner with friends. I won't be posting, except to say I have decided not to vote Conservative in my constituency next year, and vote for UKIP instead.
NOM does look quite likely. Does anyone know if there are any efforts being made to communicate the 'coalition experience' in general terms to Labour? Given there's a reasonable likelihood that they may be involved in such a thing it seems sensible that some attempt to pass on the lessons learned should be made.
I know there are similar arrangements for the opposition with regards to individual departments, and I wonder whether that extends to government as a whole. (It should)
They did have two terms in coalition in Scotland.
Of course, London HQ may think there is nothing to learn ...
Ah yes that's a very good point. I'm sure they appreciate that there are lessons to be learned. Surely they've all read Gerald Kaufman's 'How to be a Minister'.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy @krishgm 22 mins22 minutes ago Just recorded an interview with Theresa May in which she refuses to say these immigration measures will mean they hit the migrant target
It's obvious the only way to guarantee you hit a target is with a quota.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy @krishgm 22 mins22 minutes ago Just recorded an interview with Theresa May in which she refuses to say these immigration measures will mean they hit the migrant target
It's obvious the only way to guarantee you hit a target is with a quota.
The quota is a bit like trying to stop water with a sieve though
You always paint a picture of a generation of Labour dominance if UKIP inclined voters are foolish enough to vote UKIP rather than the way you would prefer them to.
Indeed so.
Have you considered the possibility that I might be right? I do after all remember vividly the nearest equivalent experience we have had in the UK.
What was that 1974/5?
Actually three parts:
- The national decline from the mid-sixties to 1979. You really, really don't want a repeat of that (I don't mean a literal repeat of the same issue of unions, but a repeat in the sense of not facing up to problems)
- The rise of the SDP, which helped keep Maggie in power. Of course that was a good thing, but it demonstrates the effect of a split opposition
- And then the Tory civil wars from the late 90s until 2005, which still bubble under the surface.
What I fear, and think is a quite likely outcome, is a combination of similar elements - a weak, Labour-led government failing to face up to problems, and a split opposition keeping them in power.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy @krishgm 22 mins22 minutes ago Just recorded an interview with Theresa May in which she refuses to say these immigration measures will mean they hit the migrant target
It's obvious the only way to guarantee you hit a target is with a quota.
The quota is a bit like trying to stop water with a sieve though
Well there isn't a quota at present for EU states.
You always paint a picture of a generation of Labour dominance if UKIP inclined voters are foolish enough to vote UKIP rather than the way you would prefer them to.
Indeed so.
Have you considered the possibility that I might be right? I do after all remember vividly the nearest equivalent experience we have had in the UK.
What was that 1974/5?
Actually three parts:
- The national decline from the mid-sixties to 1979. You really, really don't want a repeat of that (I don't mean a literal repeat of the same issue of unions, but a repeat in the sense of not facing up to problems)
- The rise of the SDP, which helped keep Maggie in power. Of course that was a good thing, but it demonstrates the effect of a split opposition
- And then the Tory civil wars from the late 90s until 2005, which still bubble under the surface.
What I fear, and think is a quite likely outcome, is a combination of similar elements - a weak, Labour-led government failing to face up to problems, and a split opposition keeping them in power.
You always paint a picture of a generation of Labour dominance if UKIP inclined voters are foolish enough to vote UKIP rather than the way you would prefer them to.
Indeed so.
Have you considered the possibility that I might be right? I do after all remember vividly the nearest equivalent experience we have had in the UK.
What was that 1974/5?
Actually three parts:
- The national decline from the mid-sixties to 1979. You really, really don't want a repeat of that (I don't mean a literal repeat of the same issue of unions, but a repeat in the sense of not facing up to problems)
- The rise of the SDP, which helped keep Maggie in power. Of course that was a good thing, but it demonstrates the effect of a split opposition
- And then the Tory civil wars from the late 90s until 2005, which still bubble under the surface.
What I fear, and think is a quite likely outcome, is a combination of similar elements - a weak, Labour-led government failing to face up to problems, and a split opposition keeping them in power.
The parallel I was thinking was a wishy washy pro EU Tory leader (Heath/Cameron) losing to a weak Labour govt (Callaghan/Miliband) with a strong new leader (Thatcher/?) clearing up the mess in the next election, aided by a lack of attachment to the previous two jokers
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
The parallel I was thinking was a wishy washy pro EU Tory leader (Heath/Cameron) losing to a weak Labour govt (Callaghan/Miliband) with a strong new leader (Thatcher/?) clearing up the mess in the next election, aided by a lack of attachment to the previous two jokers
Yes, after 15 years. Meanwhile immense damage had been done. And a strategy which relies on another Maggie rising out of the ashes is optimistic to say the least - especially since it's more likely to be a leader on the left in that scenario, because it will be the right which will be making itself unelectable.
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
The parallel I was thinking was a wishy washy pro EU Tory leader (Heath/Cameron) losing to a weak Labour govt (Callaghan/Miliband) with a strong new leader (Thatcher/?) clearing up the mess in the next election, aided by a lack of attachment to the previous two jokers
Yes, after 15 years. Meanwhile immense damage had been done. And a strategy which relies on another Maggie rising out of the ashes is optimistic to say the least - especially since it's more likely to be a leader on the left in that scenario, because it will be the right which will be making itself unelectable.
Maybe it will be a yet to be elected rising UKIP star!
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
Eu membership is a binary thing - probably good for the UK as you say
Immigration is something that isn't binary. It's abundantly clear that some immigration is good, but there's absolutely no evidence for 'more immigration' being better in general. At some point there probably is a downturn in the gains to be had.
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
They are positions that are supported by the British public. You are the one living in your time-warp of a united dirigiste Europe and low wage economics. UKIP are forward-thinking enough to understand that free markets, flexibility and skilled professionals are the future.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 42 mins42 minutes ago London, England When we take away migrant benefits, and they still come, what will we do next.
Employ them? Let them pay tax and not recieve benefits. Add to our prosperity?
Take Canada - why does it do nothing to stop immigration? Canada admits about 250,000 permanent immigrants a year and about 190,000 temporary workers. Most from asia. It also admits about 100,000 students. Its population is much less than ours. 'Statistics Canada' says that, by 2031, almost one-half of the population over the age of 15 will be foreign-born or have at least one foreign-born parent. The number of 'visible minorities' will double and make up the majority of the population of cities in Canada.
Oh... Italians? There is a new wave of Italian migration to Australia. Do you have any concept of what the world is?
Hmm - before that why wouldn't you take up Richard's bet ? Why the big caveat about official negotiations with all EU authorities blah blah ? Seems like you are trying to trick me.
The bet should be if Cam wins a majority will there be a Uk wide referendum held on EU membership with the option of out on the table.
I'm not trying to trick you. I just want to bet on a proper referendum happening: in versus out on the basis of a fixed renegotiated new settlement. I don't want to get screwed because of Cameron's slipperiness by with a referendum of "out versus backing Cameron to renegotiate further" or something like that.
In other words you are scared stiff of a referendum. Scared of the public. But more to the point scared of a real world intruding into your fantasy.
Hmm - before that why wouldn't you take up Richard's bet ? Why the big caveat about official negotiations with all EU authorities blah blah ? Seems like you are trying to trick me.
The bet should be if Cam wins a majority will there be a Uk wide referendum held on EU membership with the option of out on the table.
I'm not trying to trick you. I just want to bet on a proper referendum happening: in versus out on the basis of a fixed renegotiated new settlement. I don't want to get screwed because of Cameron's slipperiness by with a referendum of "out versus backing Cameron to renegotiate further" or something like that.
In other words you are scared stiff of a referendum. Scared of the public. But more to the point scared of a real world intruding into your fantasy.
Yes, dear. I'd offer the bet to you, but unlike TGOHF and Richard Nabavi, I don't trust you to pay up.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 42 mins42 minutes ago London, England When we take away migrant benefits, and they still come, what will we do next.
Employ them? Let them pay tax and not recieve benefits. Add to our prosperity?
Take Canada - why does it do nothing to stop immigration? Canada admits about 250,000 permanent immigrants a year and about 190,000 temporary workers. Most from asia. It also admits about 100,000 students. Its population is much less than ours. 'Statistics Canada' says that, by 2031, almost one-half of the population over the age of 15 will be foreign-born or have at least one foreign-born parent. The number of 'visible minorities' will double and make up the majority of the population of cities in Canada.
Oh... Italians? There is a new wave of Italian migration to Australia. Do you have any concept of what the world is?
Canada and Australia both have extremely tough points systems, you muppet.
Universities are meant to be places where your own views are challenged, debated, and held up to scrutiny.
Too many student unions want them to be places of Marxist conformity.
The old bourgeois fantasy of "freedom" of speech was comprehensively discredited by leading philsophers in the 1960s:
'Liberating tolerance, then, would mean intolerance against movements from the Right and toleration of movements from the Left' (H. Marcuse, 'Repressive Tolerance, (1965)).
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
The reason why many Tories were inhibited when discussing immigration was that people like OGH and the Islington sect called them "nasty". If you knew any real Tories that would be the last adjective that you would use. You say that Immigration and EU membership are "good for the economy" but are they good for the people ? What about the kids who sit in classes where they are the minority who speak English as a first language? And other pressures on the national services. The reason why the Left approved of unlimited immigration is that it helped to destroy the British culture, which it hated. It also favoured the Left because most immigrants voted Labour when they became able to vote. Business approves of unrestricted immigration because it gives them cheap and pliable labour, subsidised by tax credits and other benefits. The whole debate stinks of hypocrisy.
Luckyguy1983 said: ''Are you a native English speaker Flightpath? There's something quite Germanic about your posting style. ''
How obsessive is that? What a real sneering dope you are. Laughable beyond words. Is that the best you can come up with to avoid the truth? My father was a Lancashire miner. I've stood in the freezng cold on the Watersheddings. Indeed I endured one of the worst evenings of my life there. What a total ignoramus you are.
Oh and I don't worship in a Mosque either or Westminster Cathedral.
Tulisa's in a Harold Wood Pub, Harry Potter passes his driving test in Hornchurch.... but some things never change - The local hospitals are absolute rubbish, overcrowded, unable to cope.. and the Tories closed the other one down
For those interested, the judgment of Mitting J in the trial of conjoined preliminary issues in Mitchell v NGN[2014] EWHC 4014 (QB) & Rowland v Mitchell MP[2014] EWHC 4015 (QB) is now available online. It is unlikely many will read it. The media only care about the result, and it looks certain that Mitchell will not be seeking leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal.
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
The reason why many Tories were inhibited when discussing immigration was that people like OGH and the Islington sect called them "nasty". If you knew any real Tories that would be the last adjective that you would use. You say that Immigration and EU membership are "good for the economy" but are they good for the people ? What about the kids who sit in classes where they are the minority who speak English as a first language? And other pressures on the national services. The reason why the Left approved of unlimited immigration is that it helped to destroy the British culture, which it hated. It also favoured the Left because most immigrants voted Labour when they became able to vote. Business approves of unrestricted immigration because it gives them cheap and pliable labour, subsidised by tax credits and other benefits. The whole debate stinks of hypocrisy.
I really, really object, as a proud Leftist, to the suggestion that I and others on the Left "hate" British culture, and that the Right are the guardians thereof. Just because we don't subscribe to the Right's inherent belief that
"The rich man in his castle The poor man at his gate God made them, high and lowly, And ordered their estate!"
Doesn't mean that we aren't proud of our country. We believe it could be better, but that's different..
People like Perdix, festering in their golf club bars, really have no idea.
Wow. Conservatives are in full panic/abuse mode today. The day David Cameron's credibility was finally shot for good.
I'm off for a lovely dinner with friends. I won't be posting, except to say I have decided not to vote Conservative in my constituency next year, and vote for UKIP instead.
I think it's fair to say you've been trailing that position for some time now Casino. Sorry to hear that but there you go.
Although I'm on the right, can I just say how much I agree with you. It worries me the way some regard themselves as the arbiters of patriotism, and accuse those with whom they merely disagree, as traitors or treasonous.
Throughout my life, I've had one simple belief that I have chosen to elevate all others: trust everyone, and believe that all are sincere.
Of course, my choiceful trust means I've been mugged (financialy) a few times: but over the 40 years of my life, this mantra of trust has been by far the most profitable thing I've ever done. If you trust people, and believe people act sincerely, you will have far more productive and successful relationships with (all kinds of) people.
On this board, cynicism rules supreme. And it's terribly sad, and terribly unproductive. When you spend your life suspicious of people - whether politicians, foreigners, or simply people you come across day-to-day - you miss incredible opportunities.
Anyway: if anyone wants to borrow a fiver, you know where I am.
Very apt comments from OGH in the previous thread, had AV been passed the Tories would have had a reasonable chance for a majority through UKIP and LD preferences, as it is another Tory-LD Coalition looks more likely
Asian rape gangs or Muslim rape gangs? Somalians definitely aren't Asian.
It is time for the press and authorities to call a spade a spade, this is a problem within the Muslim community and tarring all Asians with the same brush. This appeasement of Muslims and protection of them by using the catch all "Asian rape gang" moniker instead of "Muslim rape gang" will allow these disgusting acts to continue unchecked in cities across Britain (and Europe from what I have read).
There are also several "UKIP" twitter accounts that post racist/far right material. It is all part of the campaign to deceive people into not voting UKIP by pretending they are something they aren't... by people who think they are democrats/freedom fighters
As I have said, although naturally on here I was accused of making it up, when I was canvassing in Clacton, there were "Hope Not Hate" people wearing UKIP badges etc in MacDonalds loudly saying anti Muslim insults so that it would appear that UKIP were saying them
EU immigration is mostly transient and with econimic progress will return home. Our tragedy is that we have people who are unemployable on the scap heap. So based on total crass ignorance kippers will hand us over to a europhile labour government.
To be fair UKIP is completely the Tories creation, when they signed Maastricht. It has largely grown due to the Tories when they disowned the shire tories and social conservatives. If Dave had hugged a few less hoodies, followed a few less huskies, and generally behaved like a Tory and not a Guardianista, UKIP would be no where.
As someone else has pointed out - we do not have UKIP any more, it is dead. What we have is BNPlite.
I am happy to vote for a decent PM in Cameron, a totally typical mainstream tory and not a shady dog whistling ting tong hating racist. You are the one who has to live with yourself, not me.
I've finally had enough of your bull and it stops right now.
Would you would provide an explanation, if UKIP are so damned racist why myself (Italian), Sunil (Indian) and MikeK (Jewish) are supporters/members?
Why are so many UKIP candidates members of ethnic minorities?
By the way, which ethnic minority are you a member of?
Ha - the thick woman called her own supporter a ting tong. Can you guess what they call you behind your back? Only the other day you and other kippers were berating a labour MP for allegedly sneering at her own (WWC) supporters. You think St Nigel is so pure - pure enough to ally with a Polish neo nazi. Facts dictate the truith about UKIP. UKIP are racist they peddle racist language all the time (Farage was notorious about Romanians next door wink wink nudge nudge) they are pushing it way beyond what they thought they could get away with. Just because you are daft sad and pathetic does not make me wrong.
Graham Moore UKIP @GrahamHmoore 8m8 minutes ago Welwyn Garden City, East @SuzanneEvans1 ANTI UKIP petition going round NHS and workers are BEING forced to sign it, if they don't they are "accused" of being racist
Fits in with the report I just posted about the UKIP candidate for Norwich South being banned from a debate at the University of East Anglia.
Both are totally counterproductive IMO. Amazing UKIP's opponents can't see that.
In a debate on Britishness a few months ago there were plenty of references to tolerance. Disgracefully, none to a commitment to free speech.
Of course tolerance means non-White cultures are allowed to run riot and only those fully signed up to the cozy metropolitan elite PC consensus need bother.
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
There are also several "UKIP" twitter accounts that post racist/far right material. It is all part of the campaign to deceive people into not voting UKIP by pretending they are something they aren't... by people who think they are democrats/freedom fighters
As I have said, although naturally on here I was accused of making it up, when I was canvassing in Clacton, there were "Hope Not Hate" people wearing UKIP badges etc in MacDonalds loudly saying anti Muslim insults so that it would appear that UKIP were saying them
Very depressing. It reminds me of the furore that occurred around Griffin's appearance on Question Time. We shouldn't seek to suppress the views of people we don't agree with.
There are also several "UKIP" twitter accounts that post racist/far right material. It is all part of the campaign to deceive people into not voting UKIP by pretending they are something they aren't... by people who think they are democrats/freedom fighters
As I have said, although naturally on here I was accused of making it up, when I was canvassing in Clacton, there were "Hope Not Hate" people wearing UKIP badges etc in MacDonalds loudly saying anti Muslim insults so that it would appear that UKIP were saying them
Dealing with the Devil to do the Lord's work I guess...
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
The reason why many Tories were inhibited when discussing immigration was that people like OGH and the Islington sect called them "nasty". If you knew any real Tories that would be the last adjective that you would use. You say that Immigration and EU membership are "good for the economy" but are they good for the people ? What about the kids who sit in classes where they are the minority who speak English as a first language? And other pressures on the national services. The reason why the Left approved of unlimited immigration is that it helped to destroy the British culture, which it hated. It also favoured the Left because most immigrants voted Labour when they became able to vote. Business approves of unrestricted immigration because it gives them cheap and pliable labour, subsidised by tax credits and other benefits. The whole debate stinks of hypocrisy.
I really, really object, as a proud Leftist, to the suggestion that I and others on the Left "hate" British culture, and that the Right are the guardians thereof. Just because we don't subscribe to the Right's inherent belief that
"The rich man in his castle The poor man at his gate God made them, high and lowly, And ordered their estate!"
Doesn't mean that we aren't proud of our country. We believe it could be better, but that's different..
People like Perdix, festering in their golf club bars, really have no idea.
But it's leftists who want to keep the poor man at his gate -or in updated terms, poor, stupid, helpless, and dependent on the state. The self made man/woman is anathema to leftists. The left loves and is sustained by poverty. A good right winger wants poor people to better themselves and get rich.
Rupert Murdoch on ex Rugby Andrew Mitchell 'Great for London Sun and freedom of speech. Journalist cleared on public interest grounds, top Tory snob minister loses libel action.'
Though rather warmer words for an Old Etonian 'Whole family enjoyed film A Brief History of Time, starring brilliant Eddie Redmayne, now waiting to see Imitation Game.' https://twitter.com/rupertmurdoch
There are also several "UKIP" twitter accounts that post racist/far right material. It is all part of the campaign to deceive people into not voting UKIP by pretending they are something they aren't... by people who think they are democrats/freedom fighters
As I have said, although naturally on here I was accused of making it up, when I was canvassing in Clacton, there were "Hope Not Hate" people wearing UKIP badges etc in MacDonalds loudly saying anti Muslim insults so that it would appear that UKIP were saying them
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
The reason why many Tories were inhibited when discussing immigration was that people like OGH and the Islington sect called them "nasty". If you knew any real Tories that would be the last adjective that you would use. You say that Immigration and EU membership are "good for the economy" but are they good for the people ? What about the kids who sit in classes where they are the minority who speak English as a first language? And other pressures on the national services. The reason why the Left approved of unlimited immigration is that it helped to destroy the British culture, which it hated. It also favoured the Left because most immigrants voted Labour when they became able to vote. Business approves of unrestricted immigration because it gives them cheap and pliable labour, subsidised by tax credits and other benefits. The whole debate stinks of hypocrisy.
I really, really object, as a proud Leftist, to the suggestion that I and others on the Left "hate" British culture, and that the Right are the guardians thereof. Just because we don't subscribe to the Right's inherent belief that
"The rich man in his castle The poor man at his gate God made them, high and lowly, And ordered their estate!"
Doesn't mean that we aren't proud of our country. We believe it could be better, but that's different..
People like Perdix, festering in their golf club bars, really have no idea.
I would imagine that Tories would really, really object to being called the nasty party but that's what lefties do all the time. Seems that these sort of slurs are par for the course at the extremes of some political debate.
Although I'm on the right, can I just say how much I agree with you. It worries me the way some regard themselves as the arbiters of patriotism, and accuse those with whom they merely disagree, as traitors or treasonous.
Throughout my life, I've had one simple belief that I have chosen to elevate all others: trust everyone, and believe that all are sincere.
Of course, my choiceful trust means I've been mugged (financialy) a few times: but over the 40 years of my life, this mantra of trust has been by far the most profitable thing I've ever done. If you trust people, and believe people act sincerely, you will have far more productive and successful relationships with (all kinds of) people.
On this board, cynicism rules supreme. And it's terribly sad, and terribly unproductive. When you spend your life suspicious of people - whether politicians, foreigners, or simply people you come across day-to-day - you miss incredible opportunities.
Anyway: if anyone wants to borrow a fiver, you know where I am.
Thanks rcs1000. And no, I don't want to borrow a fiver.
"My opponent is as honourable a man as myself, and may be right!" Probably isn't, of course, but ........
Luckyguy1983 said: ''Are you a native English speaker Flightpath? There's something quite Germanic about your posting style. ''
How obsessive is that? What a real sneering dope you are. Laughable beyond words. Is that the best you can come up with to avoid the truth? My father was a Lancashire miner. I've stood in the freezng cold on the Watersheddings. Indeed I endured one of the worst evenings of my life there. What a total ignoramus you are.
Oh and I don't worship in a Mosque either or Westminster Cathedral.
Um, I wasn't aware I was sneering? Jeesh! Take some of Dave's advice and chillax Flightpath -you'll burst a blood vessel!
There are also several "UKIP" twitter accounts that post racist/far right material. It is all part of the campaign to deceive people into not voting UKIP by pretending they are something they aren't... by people who think they are democrats/freedom fighters
As I have said, although naturally on here I was accused of making it up, when I was canvassing in Clacton, there were "Hope Not Hate" people wearing UKIP badges etc in MacDonalds loudly saying anti Muslim insults so that it would appear that UKIP were saying them
how do you know they were "Hope not Hate"?
I cant know for sure, but the UKIP people said they thought they were... then later on outside the count I was given a load of grief by Hope not Hate
Asian rape gangs or Muslim rape gangs? Somalians definitely aren't Asian.
It is time for the press and authorities to call a spade a spade, this is a problem within the Muslim community and tarring all Asians with the same brush. This appeasement of Muslims and protection of them by using the catch all "Asian rape gang" moniker instead of "Muslim rape gang" will allow these disgusting acts to continue unchecked in cities across Britain (and Europe from what I have read).
Why are you so surprised some religions are more equal than others.
They are one of the solid captive voting blocks of one party. The other is so terrified of being called wacist, nasty, stuck in the 50s, that it dare not say anything. The LDs don't matter, and UKIP are also terrified of being called wacist.
Instead all we hear is trite about the "vast, vast majority blah blah blah". A challenge to the next "community leader" who comes on tv: -do you support the death penalty for apostates -is bombing a McDonalds in Tel Aviv justified
The fact these are never asked tells you all you need to know.
Wow. Conservatives are in full panic/abuse mode today. The day David Cameron's credibility was finally shot for good.
I'm off for a lovely dinner with friends. I won't be posting, except to say I have decided not to vote Conservative in my constituency next year, and vote for UKIP instead.
If the Tories supported the position of their own activists and voters, and backed leaving the EU and limiting immigration properly, there wouldn't be a split on the right. It's crazy how the Tory leadership support policies that are against the views of their own party, and then complain that people split off to another party. They're the ones responsible for it!
Lunatic positions because it makes the Tories even more the nasty party.
Immigration = good for the economy EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
The reason why many Tories were inhibited when discussing immigration was that people like OGH and the Islington sect called them "nasty". If you knew any real Tories that would be the last adjective that you would use. You say that Immigration and EU membership are "good for the economy" but are they good for the people ? What about the kids who sit in classes where they are the minority who speak English as a first language? And other pressures on the national services. The reason why the Left approved of unlimited immigration is that it helped to destroy the British culture, which it hated. It also favoured the Left because most immigrants voted Labour when they became able to vote. Business approves of unrestricted immigration because it gives them cheap and pliable labour, subsidised by tax credits and other benefits. The whole debate stinks of hypocrisy.
I really, really object, as a proud Leftist, to the suggestion that I and others on the Left "hate" British culture, and that the Right are the guardians thereof. Just because we don't subscribe to the Right's inherent belief that
"The rich man in his castle The poor man at his gate God made them, high and lowly, And ordered their estate!"
Doesn't mean that we aren't proud of our country. We believe it could be better, but that's different..
People like Perdix, festering in their golf club bars, really have no idea.
Luckyguy1983 said: ''Are you a native English speaker Flightpath? There's something quite Germanic about your posting style. ''
How obsessive is that? What a real sneering dope you are. Laughable beyond words. Is that the best you can come up with to avoid the truth? My father was a Lancashire miner. I've stood in the freezng cold on the Watersheddings. Indeed I endured one of the worst evenings of my life there. What a total ignoramus you are.
Oh and I don't worship in a Mosque either or Westminster Cathedral.
Um, I wasn't aware I was sneering? Jeesh! Take some of Dave's advice and chillax Flightpath -you'll burst a blood vessel!
I know you're not aware. You cannot rationalise an argument so accuse someone of being wait for it - foreign!
Comments
I know there are similar arrangements for the opposition with regards to individual departments, and I wonder whether that extends to government as a whole. (It should)
Say what you like about Labour but apart from a few recent wobbles they've kept a large amount of discipline through the course of this parliament.
In any case, I will be trying harder than possibly an other PBer to ensure one Labour MP does not retain their seat, while my vote will not help Labour either as they cant win my constituency
Of course, London HQ may think there is nothing to learn ...
I'm off for a lovely dinner with friends. I won't be posting, except to say I have decided not to vote Conservative in my constituency next year, and vote for UKIP instead.
No economic growth, no jobs, no immigrants, no problem. Vote Ed, don't need Nige!
Seriously, though, we all need to calm down. Most on here would not change their vote because they are committed and keen politicos, amateur or professional.
The voters will decide the election, not us, and the political parties are well aware that they need to steer a careful course between radicalism and realism. UKIP's problem is that it has no national governing track record on which to base its claim to realism.
Have you considered the possibility that I might be right? I do after all remember vividly the nearest equivalent experience we have had in the UK.
It'd be nice to have someone of merit in politics. We may have to wait a while.
I haven't been selected yet anyway, but if I win I will be happy to live In Upper St or somewhere similarly pleasant!
Thanks for the good luck!
Just recorded an interview with Theresa May in which she refuses to say these immigration measures will mean they hit the migrant target
When we take away migrant benefits, and they still come, what will we do next.
- The national decline from the mid-sixties to 1979. You really, really don't want a repeat of that (I don't mean a literal repeat of the same issue of unions, but a repeat in the sense of not facing up to problems)
- The rise of the SDP, which helped keep Maggie in power. Of course that was a good thing, but it demonstrates the effect of a split opposition
- And then the Tory civil wars from the late 90s until 2005, which still bubble under the surface.
What I fear, and think is a quite likely outcome, is a combination of similar elements - a weak, Labour-led government failing to face up to problems, and a split opposition keeping them in power.
Immigration = good for the economy
EU membership = good for the economy
You are living in a time-warp
Immigration is something that isn't binary. It's abundantly clear that some immigration is good, but there's absolutely no evidence for 'more immigration' being better in general. At some point there probably is a downturn in the gains to be had.
Take Canada - why does it do nothing to stop immigration?
Canada admits about 250,000 permanent immigrants a year and about 190,000 temporary workers. Most from asia. It also admits about 100,000 students. Its population is much less than ours.
'Statistics Canada' says that, by 2031, almost one-half of the population over the age of 15 will be foreign-born or have at least one foreign-born parent. The number of 'visible minorities' will double and make up the majority of the population of cities in Canada.
Oh... Italians? There is a new wave of Italian migration to Australia.
Do you have any concept of what the world is?
2nd place would be grrrreat...., wonder what the odds are???
What about the kids who sit in classes where they are the minority who speak English as a first language? And other pressures on the national services.
The reason why the Left approved of unlimited immigration is that it helped to destroy the British culture, which it hated. It also favoured the Left because most immigrants voted Labour when they became able to vote.
Business approves of unrestricted immigration because it gives them cheap and pliable labour, subsidised by tax credits and other benefits.
The whole debate stinks of hypocrisy.
''Are you a native English speaker Flightpath? There's something quite Germanic about your posting style. ''
How obsessive is that? What a real sneering dope you are. Laughable beyond words. Is that the best you can come up with to avoid the truth?
My father was a Lancashire miner. I've stood in the freezng cold on the Watersheddings. Indeed I endured one of the worst evenings of my life there.
What a total ignoramus you are.
Oh and I don't worship in a Mosque either or Westminster Cathedral.
Tulisa's in a Harold Wood Pub, Harry Potter passes his driving test in Hornchurch.... but some things never change - The local hospitals are absolute rubbish, overcrowded, unable to cope.. and the Tories closed the other one down
http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/health/1_in_5_wait_more_than_four_hours_at_queen_s_and_king_george_a_es_1_3867339
UEA student who banned UKIP on 'safety grounds' has conviction for assaulting police at UAE demo http://nopenothope.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/uea-student-who-blocked-ukip-speech-has.html … via @NopenotHope
To be fair to Cameron, his speech achieved its objective.
It reassured the Tory faithful and might well convince the gullible 5% of the floaters. Mission accomplished.
Surely that's the nature of politics?
Just because we don't subscribe to the Right's inherent belief that
"The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate
God made them, high and lowly,
And ordered their estate!"
Doesn't mean that we aren't proud of our country. We believe it could be better, but that's different..
People like Perdix, festering in their golf club bars, really have no idea.
Although I'm on the right, can I just say how much I agree with you. It worries me the way some regard themselves as the arbiters of patriotism, and accuse those with whom they merely disagree, as traitors or treasonous.
Throughout my life, I've had one simple belief that I have chosen to elevate all others: trust everyone, and believe that all are sincere.
Of course, my choiceful trust means I've been mugged (financialy) a few times: but over the 40 years of my life, this mantra of trust has been by far the most profitable thing I've ever done. If you trust people, and believe people act sincerely, you will have far more productive and successful relationships with (all kinds of) people.
On this board, cynicism rules supreme. And it's terribly sad, and terribly unproductive. When you spend your life suspicious of people - whether politicians, foreigners, or simply people you come across day-to-day - you miss incredible opportunities.
Anyway: if anyone wants to borrow a fiver, you know where I am.
"Andrew Mitchell will stand for re-election to Parliament to rekindle ministerial career"
"The former Government chief whip is also considering selling one of his homes to pay off his legal bills and damages from the plebgate libel trial"
Asian rape gangs or Muslim rape gangs? Somalians definitely aren't Asian.
It is time for the press and authorities to call a spade a spade, this is a problem within the Muslim community and tarring all Asians with the same brush. This appeasement of Muslims and protection of them by using the catch all "Asian rape gang" moniker instead of "Muslim rape gang" will allow these disgusting acts to continue unchecked in cities across Britain (and Europe from what I have read).
As I have said, although naturally on here I was accused of making it up, when I was canvassing in Clacton, there were "Hope Not Hate" people wearing UKIP badges etc in MacDonalds loudly saying anti Muslim insults so that it would appear that UKIP were saying them
In a debate on Britishness a few months ago there were plenty of references to tolerance. Disgracefully, none to a commitment to free speech.
Of course tolerance means non-White cultures are allowed to run riot and only those fully signed up to the cozy metropolitan elite PC consensus need bother.
It's amazing how obviously hypocritical they are.
Though rather warmer words for an Old Etonian 'Whole family enjoyed film A Brief History of Time, starring brilliant Eddie Redmayne, now waiting to see Imitation Game.'
https://twitter.com/rupertmurdoch
I would imagine that Tories would really, really object to being called the nasty party but that's what lefties do all the time. Seems that these sort of slurs are par for the course at the extremes of some political debate.
"My opponent is as honourable a man as myself, and may be right!" Probably isn't, of course, but ........
Why are you so surprised some religions are more equal than others.
They are one of the solid captive voting blocks of one party. The other is so terrified of being called wacist, nasty, stuck in the 50s, that it dare not say anything. The LDs don't matter, and UKIP are also terrified of being called wacist.
Instead all we hear is trite about the "vast, vast majority blah blah blah".
A challenge to the next "community leader" who comes on tv:
-do you support the death penalty for apostates
-is bombing a McDonalds in Tel Aviv justified
The fact these are never asked tells you all you need to know.