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  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2014
    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:


    Good-government-minded people certainly did not try to split it up and all opposed that bonkers proposal. The man behind it was not a good-governance guy but a wealthy venture capitalist that wanted to gerrymander the state so that the wealthy coastal areas could have an electoral majority to support his ideological goals (such as cutting taxes for the rich).

    Are you sure about this? I know who Tim Draper is but it's not obvious the state of Silicon Valley would be right-wing... Maybe they'd close all the schools and do everything online though. To the extent that there's a gerrymandering angle I think it's more that you can elect Republicans in the interior?
    I oversimplified things. There were three effects:

    - To split out the low-income Hispanics among Republican dominated states to weaken their electoral influence
    - To split off the high income Democrats along the coast from their low income partisans, so that the pro-Silicon valley low-tax Democrats come to the fore
    - To have more states for low population Republican areas so the GOP get more Senators
    Or to:

    (A) Ameliorate the situation where 45% of the state votes GOP but is permanently represented by 2 Democrat Senators

    (B) Mitigate the outrageous gerrymandering that pairs the very different communities of Downtown LA (compton) with Orange County to maximise the number of Democrat Congressmen

    (C) to spot those idiots in Sacromento wasting SoCal's money on bullsh1t schemes like the Railway to Nowhere
    I find it mystifying that the American public tolerate gerrymandering at that egregious level. Some of the boundaries are un-fecking-believable (although I note that California is one of the few states with an independent districting commission).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering_in_the_United_States
  • Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited November 2014
    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    Not sure I'd invest at 1-3 on the basis of those tables...
    On those tables it would have been 3/1 in Sheffield Hallam for the Tories, Labour and the LD in October 2010.
    Since then of course things have changed, to the detriment of the LD's.
    You mean 2-1 the three ?

    Actually on those tables I'd price it

    6-5 Lib Dem
    2-1
    5-2 Cons

    methinks.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited November 2014
    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:


    Good-government-minded people certainly did not try to split it up and all opposed that bonkers proposal. The man behind it was not a good-governance guy but a wealthy venture capitalist that wanted to gerrymander the state so that the wealthy coastal areas could have an electoral majority to support his ideological goals (such as cutting taxes for the rich).

    Are you sure about this? I know who Tim Draper is but it's not obvious the state of Silicon Valley would be right-wing... Maybe they'd close all the schools and do everything online though. To the extent that there's a gerrymandering angle I think it's more that you can elect Republicans in the interior?
    I oversimplified things. There were three effects:

    - To split out the low-income Hispanics among Republican dominated states to weaken their electoral influence
    - To split off the high income Democrats along the coast from their low income partisans, so that the pro-Silicon valley low-tax Democrats come to the fore
    - To have more states for low population Republican areas so the GOP get more Senators
    Or to:

    (A) Ameliorate the situation where 45% of the state votes GOP but is permanently represented by 2 Democrat Senators

    (B) Mitigate the outrageous gerrymandering that pairs the very different communities of Downtown LA (compton) with Orange County to maximise the number of Democrat Congressmen

    (C) to spot those idiots in Sacromento wasting SoCal's money on bullsh1t schemes like the Railway to Nowhere
    (A) The GOP share of the vote in the last few Senate elections were, 37%, 38%, 35%, 42% , 37% so God knows where you get your 45% from. There are plenty of Republican states where Democrats get similar shares of the vote and get locked out of power.

    (B) Gerrymandering for House elections is a very different matter than state borders, and this proposal had nothing to do with it. Besides, California has a redistricting commission comprised of five Republicans, five Democrats and five independents, so you're speaking drivel. By the way, how does redistricting happen in Texas?

    (C) Plenty of people dislike things their government does. The answer is to win elections to overturn it rather than carve your state up.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    Not sure I'd invest at 1-3 on the basis of those tables...
    On those tables it would have been 3/1 in Sheffield Hallam for the Tories, Labour and the LD in October 2010.
    Since then of course things have changed, to the detriment of the LD's.
    You mean 2-1 the three ?

    Actually on those tables I'd price it

    6-5 Lib Dem
    2-1
    5-2 Cons

    methinks.
    I'll take £100 on the 6/5 :-)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    Incidentally, this poll again shows slightly higher swings on average than in the country as a whole - roughly equivalent to a Labour lead of 3 nationally. I'd hesitate to draw many conclusions, except that we're not seeing a net incumbency bonus.

    I imagine a lot of voters look at the 2010 Tory intake and have no affinity with them at all.
    That's a bizarre thing to say, they must have had enough affinity with them to elect them in 2010 in the first place.
    The evil Tories hadn't eaten any babies at that point.
    That wasn't the case in Scotland - by then they'd eaten not only whole kindergartens but the local dog's home and cattery.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    His front bench looked on with morbid amazement. How have they got themselves here? Six months before an election with a leader who has no aptitude for leadership running a presidential campaign – more particularly and most incredibly, with himself as president.

    How many of us, they were thinking, will lose our seats, how many of the monkeys behind us will lose theirs?
    http://order-order.com/2014/11/05/pmqs-sketch-how-have-labour-got-themselves-here/
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    Not sure I'd invest at 1-3 on the basis of those tables...
    On those tables it would have been 3/1 in Sheffield Hallam for the Tories, Labour and the LD in October 2010.
    Since then of course things have changed, to the detriment of the LD's.
    You mean 2-1 the three ?

    Actually on those tables I'd price it

    6-5 Lib Dem
    2-1
    5-2 Cons

    methinks.
    On those tables all 3 would have had an equal chance.
  • I note that a major oil pipeline in Saudi Arabia has exploded - with concerns it is ISIS sabotage.

    I suspect Putin!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    What sort of deep state elements/rogue networks?
    I don't know. I'm not familiar with US intelligence or its power structures.

    If you're not familiar with the make-up of the US security services, isn't it a bit ludicrous to believe in conspiracy theories that every mainstream analyst rejects?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited November 2014

    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    Not sure I'd invest at 1-3 on the basis of those tables...
    On those tables it would have been 3/1 in Sheffield Hallam for the Tories, Labour and the LD in October 2010.
    Since then of course things have changed, to the detriment of the LD's.
    You mean 2-1 the three ?

    Actually on those tables I'd price it

    6-5 Lib Dem
    2-1
    5-2 Cons

    methinks.
    I'll take £100 on the 6/5 :-)
    Edit: Nice try - I'm staying largely out of this one though.

    Isn't there a poll about that names Clegg and finds him to be a fair way ahead though >?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014
    antifrank said:

    AndyJS said:

    Perhaps the biggest problem for Labour at the moment is the possibility that an increasing number of LD defectors are moving over to the Greens rather than to them. The Greens have been selecting a large number of candidates in recent days and weeks, many of them in constituencies they didn't contest in 2010. They usually poll at least 500 votes, even in weak areas.

    Lord Ashcroft prompts respondents in his polls for the Conservatives, the Lib Dems, Labour and UKIP, but not for the Greens. This is worth bearing in mind, not just for its implications on the Greens' performance but for the possible impact on the performance of other parties, particularly Labour.
    He doesn't prompt for UKIP in the ANP, do you mean in the constituencies?
  • antifrank said:

    BenM said:

    Incidentally, this poll again shows slightly higher swings on average than in the country as a whole - roughly equivalent to a Labour lead of 3 nationally. I'd hesitate to draw many conclusions, except that we're not seeing a net incumbency bonus.

    I imagine a lot of voters look at the 2010 Tory intake and have no affinity with them at all.
    Much as they have no affinity with the Ed's, Tristram's and Rachel's of the Labour Party
    Rachel looks OK :)
    If you're a fan of 'Mr. Ed' perhaps......
    You too, Kent! Let's see if you pass the swimming costume test.

    Picture please.
    http://tinyurl.com/ksyaawl

    ;-)
    Too fat.
    Better?

    http://tinyurl.com/metuhxa
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
  • BenM said:

    Incidentally, this poll again shows slightly higher swings on average than in the country as a whole - roughly equivalent to a Labour lead of 3 nationally. I'd hesitate to draw many conclusions, except that we're not seeing a net incumbency bonus.

    I imagine a lot of voters look at the 2010 Tory intake and have no affinity with them at all.
    Much as they have no affinity with the Ed's, Tristram's and Rachel's of the Labour Party
    Rachel looks OK :)
    in an after 12 pints kind of way ?
    Um, I don't drink, so I don't have that as an excuse :)
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    Not sure I'd invest at 1-3 on the basis of those tables...
    On those tables it would have been 3/1 in Sheffield Hallam for the Tories, Labour and the LD in October 2010.
    Since then of course things have changed, to the detriment of the LD's.
    You mean 2-1 the three ?

    Actually on those tables I'd price it

    6-5 Lib Dem
    2-1
    5-2 Cons

    methinks.
    I'll take £100 on the 6/5 :-)
    Isn't there a poll about that names Clegg and finds him to be a fair way ahead though >?
    No.

    Damian said if you analysed the ICM Oakeshott phone poll, which didn't name Clegg, would have shown Clegg ahead if he had been named he thought.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    edited November 2014

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    1. When I said 'deep state elements within the US' I meant the US, yes -well deduced.

    2. I have no idea what the motivations of those who hijacked the planes were -not being in their heads. However, the close links between US intelligence and Saudi extremism are far more public now than they were at the time, and can hardly go unnoticed. Being both a jihadist and an agent of US power has never been mutually exclusive.

    3. This question beggars belief. Are you familiar with the concept of a false flag attack? What the US authorities gained was a licence to re-arrange the map of the world on the pretext of waging a war on terror. Let's not rehearse '45 minutes' Iraq, etc. Madeleine Albright, when asked whether the half a million dead in Iraq was a price worth paying, replied quite casually that she thought it was. What is 3 thousand Americans to minds unmoved by half a million? It is naive to suggest that such people share our bourgeois moral parameters.

    What did Al Qaeda get out of it by the way? A lot less it would appear to me.

    4. Independent thought (imagine it!) is widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community. Where that thought leads, you would have to ask the individual.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Fabulously snarky article on the decision to remove a Steve Jobs memorial in Russia, the reason being: "After Apple CEO Tim Cook publicly called for sodomy, the monument was taken down to abide to the Russian federal law protecting children from information promoting denial of traditional family values."

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/03/russia_steve_jobs_memorial_tim_cook
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    That's why he's still the odds on favourite.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    Not sure I'd invest at 1-3 on the basis of those tables...
    On those tables it would have been 3/1 in Sheffield Hallam for the Tories, Labour and the LD in October 2010.
    Since then of course things have changed, to the detriment of the LD's.
    You mean 2-1 the three ?

    Actually on those tables I'd price it

    6-5 Lib Dem
    2-1
    5-2 Cons

    methinks.
    I'll take £100 on the 6/5 :-)
    Isn't there a poll about that names Clegg and finds him to be a fair way ahead though >?
    No.

    Damian said if you analysed the ICM Oakeshott phone poll, which didn't name Clegg, would have shown Clegg ahead if he had been named he thought.
    Oh Lord well I'm most definitely staying out of any further Hallam betting then.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    "I DON'T agree with Nick?"
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Scott_P said:

    @georgeeaton: “The only way is down”: If Labour can’t inspire itself, how can it inspire the country? My New Statesman cover piece: http://t.co/SPNIYkgRmw

    " “It’s a battle between a shit Labour Party and a shit Conservative Party,” said one Labour frontbencher, distilling the mood of resigned misery. “The winner will be the one that’s a little bit less shit.” Unable to inspire itself, Labour has never seemed further from inspiring the country."

    Therein is the the UKIP slogan and battlecry: The Lab/Lib/ Cons are all the same: and if they consider themselves 'shit', so much the better.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    BenM said:

    Incidentally, this poll again shows slightly higher swings on average than in the country as a whole - roughly equivalent to a Labour lead of 3 nationally. I'd hesitate to draw many conclusions, except that we're not seeing a net incumbency bonus.

    I imagine a lot of voters look at the 2010 Tory intake and have no affinity with them at all.
    Much as they have no affinity with the Ed's, Tristram's and Rachel's of the Labour Party
    Rachel looks OK :)
    in an after 12 pints kind of way ?
    Um, I don't drink, so I don't have that as an excuse :)
    I'll put you down as a hippophile then.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2820585/Stately-home-sold-council-market-TEN-TIMES-price.html

    Windlestone Hall, near Rushyford in Durham, was sold by Durham County Council for £241,000 in 2012

    Council says they had 'good value' for the sale given its condition and the £3 million in repairs that were needed

    The birthplace of former Conservative Prime Minister Anthony Eden is now on sale for £2.5 million

    Something doesn't look quite right about all that.

    (A) different market times
    (B) Asking prices, not selling price
    (C) he's split the house into several units, which will increase the marketability (eg the central span is on at £1.5m) and the DM has just aggregates

    I suspect the council sold badly, but it doesn't naturally follow it was that bad a deal
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    Not sure I'd invest at 1-3 on the basis of those tables...
    On those tables it would have been 3/1 in Sheffield Hallam for the Tories, Labour and the LD in October 2010.
    Since then of course things have changed, to the detriment of the LD's.
    You mean 2-1 the three ?

    Actually on those tables I'd price it

    6-5 Lib Dem
    2-1
    5-2 Cons

    methinks.
    I'll take £100 on the 6/5 :-)
    Isn't there a poll about that names Clegg and finds him to be a fair way ahead though >?
    No.

    Damian said if you analysed the ICM Oakeshott phone poll, which didn't name Clegg, would have shown Clegg ahead if he had been named he thought.
    Oh Lord well I'm most definitely staying out of any further Hallam betting then.
    Damian knows quite a lot about constituency polling.

    He's done more than Lord Ashcroft has this parliament.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
  • it's a real pity none of the Clegg is doomed people don't put money on it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    QTWTAIN
  • Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    1. When I said 'deep state elements within the US' I meant the US, yes -well deduced.

    2. I have no idea what the motivations of those who hijacked the planes were -not being in their heads. However, the close links between US intelligence and Saudi extremism are far more public now than they were at the time, and can hardly go unnoticed. Being both a jihadist and an agent of US power has never been mutually exclusive.

    3. This question beggars belief. Are you familiar with the concept of a false flag attack? What the US authorities gained was a licence to re-arrange the map of the world on the pretext of waging a war on terror. Let's not rehearse '45 minutes' Iraq, etc. Madeleine Albright, when asked whether the half a million dead in Iraq was a price worth paying, replied quite casually that she thought it was. What is 3 thousand Americans to minds unmoved by half a million? It is naive to suggest that such people share our bourgeois moral parameters.

    What did Al Qaeda get out of it by the way? A lot less it would appear to me.

    4. Independent thought (imagine it!) is widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community. Where that thought leads, you would have to ask the individual.
    OK thanks, we'll have to agree to differ. If you can swallow all that it's no surprise that you can agree with Nigel.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    That's why he's still the odds on favourite.
    Given the nose-dive in LD national polling since 2010, would that still be the case?
  • Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    QTWTAIN
    Why?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.
    "Enemy of the State" was not a documentary.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    That's why he's still the odds on favourite.
    Given the nose-dive in LD national polling since 2010, would that still be the case?
    He around 1/3 right now.
  • BenM said:

    Incidentally, this poll again shows slightly higher swings on average than in the country as a whole - roughly equivalent to a Labour lead of 3 nationally. I'd hesitate to draw many conclusions, except that we're not seeing a net incumbency bonus.

    I imagine a lot of voters look at the 2010 Tory intake and have no affinity with them at all.
    Much as they have no affinity with the Ed's, Tristram's and Rachel's of the Labour Party
    Rachel looks OK :)
    in an after 12 pints kind of way ?
    Um, I don't drink, so I don't have that as an excuse :)
    I'll put you down as a hippophile then.
    Is that horse-lover or hippo-lover?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Luckyguy1983

    1. What links between Saudi extremism and the US government are you talking about?

    2. What other evidence makes you believe 9/11 was a False Flag attack?

    3. Do you believe any major US politicians were in on it?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    What sort of deep state elements/rogue networks?
    I don't know. I'm not familiar with US intelligence or its power structures.

    If you're not familiar with the make-up of the US security services, isn't it a bit ludicrous to believe in conspiracy theories that every mainstream analyst rejects?
    I also believe that my light will come on when I switch it on. I don't remember enough about physics to tell you how.

    Do you know which cell of Al Quaeda you believe the towers to have been brought down by? Who funded the exercise? The chain of command? Yet you believe what you're told.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

    The most Reverend Professor Richard Nabavi is an Oxford educated Physicist.

    Next time he's about can you talk about the physics problems you mention

    I could do with a good laugh.

    Plus physics gives me a hadron
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670


    3. This question beggars belief. Are you familiar with the concept of a false flag attack? What the US authorities gained was a licence to re-arrange the map of the world on the pretext of waging a war on terror. Let's not rehearse '45 minutes' Iraq, etc. Madeleine Albright, when asked whether the half a million dead in Iraq was a price worth paying, replied quite casually that she thought it was. What is 3 thousand Americans to minds unmoved by half a million? It is naive to suggest that such people share our bourgeois moral parameters.

    What did Al Qaeda get out of it by the way? A lot less it would appear to me.

    The Bush administration was planning on invading Iraq regardless of 9/11 - it was part of the New American Century proposal. 9/11 In fact fucked with their plans as they had to delay going to Iraq and invade Afghanistan which cost them billions and stretched their military resources to breaking point.

    It would make it the dumbest false flag operation in history.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    That's why he's still the odds on favourite.
    Given the nose-dive in LD national polling since 2010, would that still be the case?
    He around 1/3 right now.
    And don't forget, his leadership ratings are almost as bad as Ed's!!
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2014

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    QTWTAIN
    Why?
    A conspiricy theory is (usually) taken to be held by a minority and involve the authorities or corporate interests hiding the truth from the public. Al Qaeda did it, they claimed they did it, and most people believe they did it. On those grounds I don't think it can be in the same class as "the CIA were behind 9/11" or "airplane contrails are full of mind-control drugs" or "aliens landed in Roswell".
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

    The most Reverend Professor Richard Nabavi is an Oxford educated Physicist.

    Next time he's about can you talk about the physics problems you mention

    I could do with a good laugh.

    Plus physics gives me a hadron
    No mention of HAARP. Such a shame.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited November 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.

    The belief in conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the defensiveness over Putin are both products of the anti-Americanism, in my opinion. Lucky is a nice guy, and a smart guy, but his coherence goes off the rails when the US comes into it. He believes the British Empire was much better as a superpower than the USA was, and for this he cites the British Empire being more of a force for free trade. Apparently some protectionist tariffs after the Great Depression are a greater crime against free trade than a mercantilist system of monopolies and 80%+ taxes over the entirety of a subcontinent.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    That's why he's still the odds on favourite.
    Given the nose-dive in LD national polling since 2010, would that still be the case?
    He around 1/3 right now.
    And don't forget, his leadership ratings are almost as bad as Ed's!!
    But he's very popular in Sheffield Hallam.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2820585/Stately-home-sold-council-market-TEN-TIMES-price.html

    Windlestone Hall, near Rushyford in Durham, was sold by Durham County Council for £241,000 in 2012

    Council says they had 'good value' for the sale given its condition and the £3 million in repairs that were needed

    The birthplace of former Conservative Prime Minister Anthony Eden is now on sale for £2.5 million

    Something doesn't look quite right about all that.

    (A) different market times
    (B) Asking prices, not selling price
    (C) he's split the house into several units, which will increase the marketability (eg the central span is on at £1.5m) and the DM has just aggregates

    I suspect the council sold badly, but it doesn't naturally follow it was that bad a deal
    The council had previously rejected an offer of £1.5 million (potentially rising to £3 million after project completion) - that's what makes the £241k look so bad. For the avoidance of doubt I am not a councilor on Durham County Council*.

    Or "County of County Durham County Council" as I wish it were called.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    That's why he's still the odds on favourite.
    Given the nose-dive in LD national polling since 2010, would that still be the case?
    He around 1/3 right now.
    And don't forget, his leadership ratings are almost as bad as Ed's!!
    But he's very popular in Sheffield Hallam.
    As that notorious ICM poll showed in some of its later questions. 45% of the electorate thought that he was doing a good job as a local MP.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    @Isam

    Not related contingencies? OK then, I'll have a ten pound win accumulator on UKIP to win Clacton, Rochester, Boston, Thanet South..... ;-)

    Seriously, there's a fair measure of consensus that we could see some really off-the-map results at the GE. The problem is identifying them. We're doing well though. We've got Cannock, and a few others. Let's keep up the good work.

    We need first hand reports from people who aren't afraid to admit they live amongst UKIP-voters.

    "The problem is identifying them."

    The list is on here for all to see Peter old chum
  • antifrank said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Lord Ashcroft did poll Sheffield Hallam in late 2010 and had it as a LD hold

    http://www.lordashcroft.com/pdf/sheffield_hallam_poll_tables.pdf

    I told you 6 months ago about that poll, a 2 point difference in October 2010 and since then the LD have fallen further means that Clegg is in trouble.
    Also the newer ICM poll had Clegg battling for second place with the Tories with Labour 10 points ahead.
    My knowledge of South Yorkshire and Sheffield Hallam is brilliant.

    I said UKIP wouldn't win the Police Commisioner elections.

    Labour made much play of the Ashcroft poll in the Sheffield locals.

    They invited Sheffield Hallam voters to send Nick Clegg a message.

    The voters sent a message by voting Lib Dem.
    You shot yourself on the foot by posting the Ashcroft poll showing Nick Clegg just 2 points ahead of Labour and 5 points ahead of the Tories back in October 2010.
    Now everyone knows that Clegg is in trouble.
    That's why he's still the odds on favourite.
    Given the nose-dive in LD national polling since 2010, would that still be the case?
    He around 1/3 right now.
    And don't forget, his leadership ratings are almost as bad as Ed's!!
    But he's very popular in Sheffield Hallam.
    As that notorious ICM poll showed in some of its later questions. 45% of the electorate thought that he was doing a good job as a local MP.
    Shush. I'm trying to get price to go up.
  • isam said:

    @Isam

    Not related contingencies? OK then, I'll have a ten pound win accumulator on UKIP to win Clacton, Rochester, Boston, Thanet South..... ;-)

    Seriously, there's a fair measure of consensus that we could see some really off-the-map results at the GE. The problem is identifying them. We're doing well though. We've got Cannock, and a few others. Let's keep up the good work.

    We need first hand reports from people who aren't afraid to admit they live amongst UKIP-voters.

    "The problem is identifying them."

    The list is on here for all to see Peter old chum
    Yeah but we can't back the lot. We're not all as wealthy as you, Isam.

    We need to adopt the sniper's approach. Aim.....
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322


    I also believe that my light will come on when I switch it on. I don't remember enough about physics to tell you how.

    Do you know which cell of Al Quaeda you believe the towers to have been brought down by? Who funded the exercise? The chain of command? Yet you believe what you're told.

    I believe the sleeper cell located in New York City was behind the attacks. I believe the leadership of Al-Qaeda up to bin Laden himself were fully informed and behind the plan. Given that the attacks fit squarely into Al-Qaeda's publicly claimed view of the world, there's not a massive incoherence here that needs explaining.

    On the US government side, however, the vast bulk of the American government would be appalled at such a scheme. The belief that a secret group within this organisation did it would need an explanation for how large this group was, and how it managed to avoid detection or even investigation from everyone else.

    In terms of funding for the exercise, paying the basic lifestyles for a half dozen guys over a couple of years, some flying lessons and some air tickets doesn't cost all that much. It would have easily been affordable by a very rich man like bin Laden, and a few donations from other Islamists among the private wealthy Arab community.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014

    isam said:

    @Isam

    Not related contingencies? OK then, I'll have a ten pound win accumulator on UKIP to win Clacton, Rochester, Boston, Thanet South..... ;-)

    Seriously, there's a fair measure of consensus that we could see some really off-the-map results at the GE. The problem is identifying them. We're doing well though. We've got Cannock, and a few others. Let's keep up the good work.

    We need first hand reports from people who aren't afraid to admit they live amongst UKIP-voters.

    "The problem is identifying them."

    The list is on here for all to see Peter old chum
    Yeah but we can't back the lot. We're not all as wealthy as you, Isam.

    We need to adopt the sniper's approach. Aim.....
    I've barely backed any of them! Certainly not rich, blimey if only you knew

    Oh I forgot the "Farage to stand in Thanet South" tip at 2/1 from my list.. I actually told OGH that one in person at Dirty Dicks having been told by Patrick O'Flynn that it would be one of the Thanets, and he laughed and said "No no my source tells me Farage is standing in Folkestone & Hythe"

    No helping some people
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2014
    Walsall North

    Ashcroft sample 5 May 2014 - 11 May 2014 (YG used for comparable regional and nationals)

    National: LAB 36 UKIP 13
    Midlands: LAB 37 UKIP 15
    Walsall N: LAB 37 UKIP 30 (labour lead 7)

    Last Week

    National: LAB 33 (-3) UKIP 17 (+4) - move of 7
    Midlands: LAB 33 (-4) UKIP 18 (+3) - move of 7
    Walsall N: LAB ............UKIP ............

  • isam said:

    isam said:

    @Isam

    Not related contingencies? OK then, I'll have a ten pound win accumulator on UKIP to win Clacton, Rochester, Boston, Thanet South..... ;-)

    Seriously, there's a fair measure of consensus that we could see some really off-the-map results at the GE. The problem is identifying them. We're doing well though. We've got Cannock, and a few others. Let's keep up the good work.

    We need first hand reports from people who aren't afraid to admit they live amongst UKIP-voters.

    "The problem is identifying them."

    The list is on here for all to see Peter old chum
    Yeah but we can't back the lot. We're not all as wealthy as you, Isam.

    We need to adopt the sniper's approach. Aim.....
    I've barely backed any of them! Certainly not rich, blimey if only you knew

    Oh I forgot the "Farage to stand in Thanet South" tip at 2/1 from my list.. I actually told OGH that one in person at Dirty Dicks having been told by Patrick O'Flynn that it would be one of the Thanets, and he laughed and said "No no my source tells me Farage is standing in Folkestone & Hythe"

    No helping some people
    Nuff already. I gotta get to the gym. Need to get into shape for Dirty Dicks.

    Laters.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

    The most Reverend Professor Richard Nabavi is an Oxford educated Physicist.

    Next time he's about can you talk about the physics problems you mention

    I could do with a good laugh.

    Plus physics gives me a hadron
    Did I tell you I went to the visitors' centre at CERN during my trip to Geneva a few weeks back?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

    The most Reverend Professor Richard Nabavi is an Oxford educated Physicist.

    Next time he's about can you talk about the physics problems you mention

    I could do with a good laugh.

    Plus physics gives me a hadron
    He's welcome to tell me how aviation fuel or burning debris is capable of bringing down a steel framed skyscraper -I look forward to it.

  • Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    QTWTAIN
    Why?
    A conspiricy theory is (usually) taken to be held by a minority and involve the authorities or corporate interests hiding the truth from the public. Al Qaeda did it, they claimed they did it, and most people believe they did it. On those grounds I don't think it can be in the same class as "the CIA were behind 9/11" or "airplane contrails are full of mind-control drugs" or "aliens landed in Roswell".
    So Bin Laden remotely piloted the planes from a cave in Afghanistan! Just another conspiracy theory!
  • Alistair said:


    3. This question beggars belief. Are you familiar with the concept of a false flag attack? What the US authorities gained was a licence to re-arrange the map of the world on the pretext of waging a war on terror. Let's not rehearse '45 minutes' Iraq, etc. Madeleine Albright, when asked whether the half a million dead in Iraq was a price worth paying, replied quite casually that she thought it was. What is 3 thousand Americans to minds unmoved by half a million? It is naive to suggest that such people share our bourgeois moral parameters.

    What did Al Qaeda get out of it by the way? A lot less it would appear to me.

    The Bush administration was planning on invading Iraq regardless of 9/11 - it was part of the New American Century proposal. 9/11 In fact fucked with their plans as they had to delay going to Iraq and invade Afghanistan which cost them billions and stretched their military resources to breaking point.

    It would make it the dumbest false flag operation in history.
    Didn't the Bush Administration drum up support for the Iraq War in 2002-3 because they accused Saddam of involvement in 9/11?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Is it me or did UKIP and the tories move a little less far away from each other today?

    If not an olive branch, an olive twig?
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.

    The belief in conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the defensiveness over Putin are both products of the anti-Americanism, in my opinion. Lucky is a nice guy, and a smart guy, but his coherence goes off the rails when the US comes into it. He believes the British Empire was much better as a superpower than the USA was, and for this he cites the British Empire being more of a force for free trade. Apparently some protectionist tariffs after the Great Depression are a greater crime against free trade than a mercantilist system of monopolies and 80%+ taxes over the entirety of a subcontinent.
    I think the British Empire was the greatest and that British foreign policy should be determined by British interests as I am British. I need no other reason.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    QTWTAIN
    Why?
    A conspiricy theory is (usually) taken to be held by a minority and involve the authorities or corporate interests hiding the truth from the public. Al Qaeda did it, they claimed they did it, and most people believe they did it. On those grounds I don't think it can be in the same class as "the CIA were behind 9/11" or "airplane contrails are full of mind-control drugs" or "aliens landed in Roswell".
    This is a bit rich -so only the great unwashed have 'conspiracy theories' -when a bunch of total hogwash (Assad being in control of ISIS for example) is being pedalled by the MSM, it's not a conspiracy theory?

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    taffys said:

    Is it me or did UKIP and the tories move a little less far away from each other today?

    If not an olive branch, an olive twig?

    It will be time to get concerned when they reach for the olive oil.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    edited November 2014
    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.

    The belief in conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the defensiveness over Putin are both products of the anti-Americanism, in my opinion. Lucky is a nice guy, and a smart guy, but his coherence goes off the rails when the US comes into it. He believes the British Empire was much better as a superpower than the USA was, and for this he cites the British Empire being more of a force for free trade. Apparently some protectionist tariffs after the Great Depression are a greater crime against free trade than a mercantilist system of monopolies and 80%+ taxes over the entirety of a subcontinent.
    I think the British Empire was the greatest.
    If only it had been a fully democratic Federation!

    Freedom, Fraternity, Federation!

    If I had my way, and I freely confess it would have depended on an extensive amount of Alternate History along the way (particularly in regard to the USA and Ireland!), my Commonwealth of English-speaking Nations and Peoples would consist of:

    * All current Commonwealth members, including external territories where relevant
    * Fiji (currently suspended, of course)
    * The ex-members: Ireland, Zimbabwe and the Gambia
    * Hong Kong (despite the transfer, still using English in an official capacity)

    Plus: The nine other nations and one unrecognised state with English as a de facto or de jure official language:

    * USA! USA! USA!, and its external territories
    * Palau (former US mandate)
    * Micronesia (former US Mandate)
    * Marshall Islands (former US Mandate)
    * The Philippines
    * Liberia
    * Sudan
    * South Sudan
    * Eritrea
    * and the break-away region of Somaliland (northern part of Somalia)

    Plus (again!):
    * The whole of the EU (those 24 countries not already mentioned above), by virtue of it being a political union, with English an official language (sneaky, I know!). Plus their current external territories, just for a bit of fun (this would apply to France, Denmark, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands)
  • taffys said:

    Is it me or did UKIP and the tories move a little less far away from each other today?

    If not an olive branch, an olive twig?

    No, because you still have PB Tories like TSE calling Kippers "racist"!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    the people of Lewes will "rue the day". Burn him !

    Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 3m3 minutes ago
    In the Lewes effigy of @alexsalmond he appears to be holding a "45%" wooden spoon ... And Nessie pic.twitter.com/18YcVWeFzG

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

    The most Reverend Professor Richard Nabavi is an Oxford educated Physicist.

    Next time he's about can you talk about the physics problems you mention

    I could do with a good laugh.

    Plus physics gives me a hadron
    He's welcome to tell me how aviation fuel or burning debris is capable of bringing down a steel framed skyscraper -I look forward to it.

    It was neither. It was molten aluminium. One of the most explosive things on the planet, when it comes into contact with water.... And it's what the plane was largely made of. And there was a sprinkler system on every floor.

    So feck off with your not even half-arsed conspiracy theories.



  • Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.

    The belief in conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the defensiveness over Putin are both products of the anti-Americanism, in my opinion. Lucky is a nice guy, and a smart guy, but his coherence goes off the rails when the US comes into it. He believes the British Empire was much better as a superpower than the USA was, and for this he cites the British Empire being more of a force for free trade. Apparently some protectionist tariffs after the Great Depression are a greater crime against free trade than a mercantilist system of monopolies and 80%+ taxes over the entirety of a subcontinent.
    You should really compare like-for-like i.e. what one country was doing vis a vis its contemporaries, not against another country two or three centuries later / earlier, when global conditions were immensely different.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Thanks for your very kind comments.

    They are actually all part of the same thing. I tend to be very sceptical of what I read in the press.

    I an not 'pro Putin'. Vladimir Putin is undoubtedly ruthless and growingly autocratic, but the caricature in the media of a Dick Darstardly style villain who invades on a whim is simply silly. Even Hitler had a game plan. Do I believe Putin's game plan is to control and dominate our country and my life? Nope. Is there anything to be gained from antagonising him? Nope. Are we doing it because America (who recently called him the biggest threat to humanity) are doing it? Yep. Is this an area where their interests and ours are misaligned, therefore we should shut our traps and see which way things go? Yep.

    I don't believe in 'conspiracy theories' as some sort of rule -if I think there is one, I believe in it. Same as everybody else.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

    The most Reverend Professor Richard Nabavi is an Oxford educated Physicist.

    Next time he's about can you talk about the physics problems you mention

    I could do with a good laugh.

    Plus physics gives me a hadron
    He's welcome to tell me how aviation fuel or burning debris is capable of bringing down a steel framed skyscraper -I look forward to it.

    There was a very good documentary on television which explained precisely how the towers fell as a result of the planes crashing into them. The explanations were given by structural engineers and others who have precisely the sort of expertise which would enable them to understand and explain the mechanics.

  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2014
    North Warwickshire

    Ashcroft sample 31 Mar 2014 - 6 Apr 2014 (YG used for comparable regional and nationals)

    National: LAB 38 CON 33
    Midlands: LAB 41 CON 33
    Constituency: LAB 43 CON 35 (labour lead 8)

    Last Week

    National: LAB 33 CON 32 (lead down 4)
    Midlands: LAB 33 CON 32 (lead down 7)
    Constituency: LAB .... CON ....

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    taffys said:

    Is it me or did UKIP and the tories move a little less far away from each other today?

    If not an olive branch, an olive twig?

    No, because you still have PB Tories like TSE calling Kippers "racist"!
    Don't forget "fruitcakes".
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.

    The belief in conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the defensiveness over Putin are both products of the anti-Americanism, in my opinion. Lucky is a nice guy, and a smart guy, but his coherence goes off the rails when the US comes into it. He believes the British Empire was much better as a superpower than the USA was, and for this he cites the British Empire being more of a force for free trade. Apparently some protectionist tariffs after the Great Depression are a greater crime against free trade than a mercantilist system of monopolies and 80%+ taxes over the entirety of a subcontinent.
    Not just for free trade -far more importantly for how peaceful it was (which obviously feed into each other).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Cyclefree said:

    There was a very good documentary on television which explained precisely how the towers fell as a result of the planes crashing into them. The explanations were given by structural engineers and others who have precisely the sort of expertise which would enable them to understand and explain the mechanics.

    Those so called "experts" were really CIA agents. It shocks me how gullible some people can be.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Isn't it just another "conspiracy theory" to believe 9/11 was organised by some bearded Saudi exile living in a remote cave in Afghanistan?

    I'm not saying it is a "conspiracy theory", just posing the question :)
    Yes it is. And a far more far-fetched one, that involves the suspension of the laws of physics amongst other things.

    The most Reverend Professor Richard Nabavi is an Oxford educated Physicist.

    Next time he's about can you talk about the physics problems you mention

    I could do with a good laugh.

    Plus physics gives me a hadron
    He's welcome to tell me how aviation fuel or burning debris is capable of bringing down a steel framed skyscraper -I look forward to it.

    It was neither. It was molten aluminium. One of the most explosive things on the planet, when it comes into contact with water.... And it's what the plane was largely made of. And there was a sprinkler system on every floor.

    So feck off with your not even half-arsed conspiracy theories.
    I actually went to this when I was living in CO! Can't say I was entirely convinced by the "truther", but it was interesting none the less:
    http://www.ae911truth.org/news/459-uc-boulder-debate.html
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The beggars from hell go ting a ling a ling for you but not for me. Oh no?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2819711/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-hell-importing-beggars.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    There is a posse of ex footballers who like a dodgy bet opposing Horses that cant win or buying bookings in dodgy matches...

    Even so...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/fameandfortune/11210678/Bankrupt-David-James-sells-off-possessions-why-do-so-many-footballers-go-bust.html


  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    edited November 2014
    Cyclefree said:



    There was a very good documentary on television which explained precisely how the towers fell as a result of the planes crashing into them. The explanations were given by structural engineers and others who have precisely the sort of expertise which would enable them to understand and explain the mechanics.

    I don't doubt it. To set against that, there is an entire society called 'Architects and Engineers for 9-11 truth'. Which is obviously a slightly bigger affair than some talking heads on a programme. You might ask yourself (though you'll know the answer) why no opposing opinions were sought for your programme.

    http://www.ae911truth.org


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Thanks for your very kind comments.

    They are actually all part of the same thing. I tend to be very sceptical of what I read in the press.

    I an not 'pro Putin'. Vladimir Putin is undoubtedly ruthless and growingly autocratic, but the caricature in the media of a Dick Darstardly style villain who invades on a whim is simply silly. Even Hitler had a game plan. Do I believe Putin's game plan is to control and dominate our country and my life? Nope. Is there anything to be gained from antagonising him? Nope. Are we doing it because America (who recently called him the biggest threat to humanity) are doing it? Yep. Is this an area where their interests and ours are misaligned, therefore we should shut our traps and see which way things go? Yep.

    I don't believe in 'conspiracy theories' as some sort of rule -if I think there is one, I believe in it. Same as everybody else.
    We have disagreed sharply in the past but IMHO you are quite correct about this.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:


    3. This question beggars belief. Are you familiar with the concept of a false flag attack? What the US authorities gained was a licence to re-arrange the map of the world on the pretext of waging a war on terror. Let's not rehearse '45 minutes' Iraq, etc. Madeleine Albright, when asked whether the half a million dead in Iraq was a price worth paying, replied quite casually that she thought it was. What is 3 thousand Americans to minds unmoved by half a million? It is naive to suggest that such people share our bourgeois moral parameters.

    What did Al Qaeda get out of it by the way? A lot less it would appear to me.

    The Bush administration was planning on invading Iraq regardless of 9/11 - it was part of the New American Century proposal. 9/11 In fact fucked with their plans as they had to delay going to Iraq and invade Afghanistan which cost them billions and stretched their military resources to breaking point.

    It would make it the dumbest false flag operation in history.
    Didn't the Bush Administration drum up support for the Iraq War in 2002-3 because they accused Saddam of involvement in 9/11?
    Yes and No, whilst they clearly tried to link Iraq and Al Qaeda in public pronouncements they never actually stated a definitive link between Saddam and 9/11 and their intelligence services were continually telling them that there was bugger all evidence even for a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda never mind 9/11.

    So whilst the majority of the US population thought Saddam was responsible for 9/11 at the time of the US invasion that was through piss poor reporting by the US media of pretty vague statements by the Bush admin. By 2006 Bush himself was point blank saying there was no connection between Saddam and 9/11.

    America invaded Afghanistan because the intelligence pointed that the ringleaders were there. America botched the invasion of Afghanistan and apprehension of Bin Laden because the Bush Administration didn't want to be invading Afghanistan - they wanted to be invading Iraq like they had planned to before coming to power.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century is the intellectual foundation of what the Bush administration did, the PNAC wanted regime change in Iraq. The Bush Administration was going to implement regime change in Iraq 9/11 or no 9/11.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.

    The belief in conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the defensiveness over Putin are both products of the anti-Americanism, in my opinion. Lucky is a nice guy, and a smart guy, but his coherence goes off the rails when the US comes into it. He believes the British Empire was much better as a superpower than the USA was, and for this he cites the British Empire being more of a force for free trade. Apparently some protectionist tariffs after the Great Depression are a greater crime against free trade than a mercantilist system of monopolies and 80%+ taxes over the entirety of a subcontinent.
    Not just for free trade -far more importantly for how peaceful it was (which obviously feed into each other).
    Yep, barely any wars at all:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1800–99

    For God's sake: Britain started a whole bunch of them. And not for noble reasons like containing the spread of communism, but to simply annex land from the natives (often to give it to white farmers), or to secure the existing exploitation in India. I'm pretty sure you oppose Israel's settlement in the West Bank. Well the British did that all over the world.

    More people certainly got killed in the American period, post-1946, but that was because of modern technology.
  • taffys said:

    Is it me or did UKIP and the tories move a little less far away from each other today?

    If not an olive branch, an olive twig?

    I don't think so. Cameron is just playing to his backbenches.......
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014
    TGOHF said:

    the people of Lewes will "rue the day". Burn him !

    Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 3m3 minutes ago
    In the Lewes effigy of @alexsalmond he appears to be holding a "45%" wooden spoon ... And Nessie pic.twitter.com/18YcVWeFzG

    The comments are priceless - I particularly liked: "ignorant sassenachs bet they vote Tory or UKIP", though I fear they'd be even more indignant if they knew how Lewes actually votes...
  • Alistair said:

    Alistair said:


    3. This question beggars belief. Are you familiar with the concept of a false flag attack? What the US authorities gained was a licence to re-arrange the map of the world on the pretext of waging a war on terror. Let's not rehearse '45 minutes' Iraq, etc. Madeleine Albright, when asked whether the half a million dead in Iraq was a price worth paying, replied quite casually that she thought it was. What is 3 thousand Americans to minds unmoved by half a million? It is naive to suggest that such people share our bourgeois moral parameters.

    What did Al Qaeda get out of it by the way? A lot less it would appear to me.

    The Bush administration was planning on invading Iraq regardless of 9/11 - it was part of the New American Century proposal. 9/11 In fact fucked with their plans as they had to delay going to Iraq and invade Afghanistan which cost them billions and stretched their military resources to breaking point.

    It would make it the dumbest false flag operation in history.
    Didn't the Bush Administration drum up support for the Iraq War in 2002-3 because they accused Saddam of involvement in 9/11?
    Yes and No, whilst they clearly tried to link Iraq and Al Qaeda in public pronouncements they never actually stated a definitive link between Saddam and 9/11 and their intelligence services were continually telling them that there was bugger all evidence even for a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda never mind 9/11.

    So whilst the majority of the US population thought Saddam was responsible for 9/11 at the time of the US invasion that was through piss poor reporting by the US media of pretty vague statements by the Bush admin. By 2006 Bush himself was point blank saying there was no connection between Saddam and 9/11.

    America invaded Afghanistan because the intelligence pointed that the ringleaders were there. America botched the invasion of Afghanistan and apprehension of Bin Laden because the Bush Administration didn't want to be invading Afghanistan - they wanted to be invading Iraq like they had planned to before coming to power.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century is the intellectual foundation of what the Bush administration did, the PNAC wanted regime change in Iraq. The Bush Administration was going to implement regime change in Iraq 9/11 or no 9/11.
    Do you think it would have been easier for Bush and Co. to find support at home and in the wider world for war in Iraq with or without 9/11?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    I actually went to this when I was living in CO! Can't say I was entirely convinced by the "truther", but it was interesting none the less:
    http://www.ae911truth.org/news/459-uc-boulder-debate.html

    For those who want to know more about the role of molten aluminium in the collapse of the Twin Towers:

    http://www.livescience.com/16179-twin-tower-collapse-model-squash-9-11-conspiracies.html
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322


    I an not 'pro Putin'. Vladimir Putin is undoubtedly ruthless and growingly autocratic, but the caricature in the media of a Dick Darstardly style villain who invades on a whim is simply silly. Even Hitler had a game plan. Do I believe Putin's game plan is to control and dominate our country and my life? Nope. Is there anything to be gained from antagonising him? Nope. Are we doing it because America (who recently called him the biggest threat to humanity) are doing it? Yep. Is this an area where their interests and ours are misaligned, therefore we should shut our traps and see which way things go? Yep.

    Britain's and America's (and France's and Germany's) interest in Ukraine is entirely aligned. It is moral and good to encourage them to move to a democratic system, and it is very dangerous to allow nations to invade and annex part of their neighbours.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    There was a very good documentary on television which explained precisely how the towers fell as a result of the planes crashing into them. The explanations were given by structural engineers and others who have precisely the sort of expertise which would enable them to understand and explain the mechanics.

    Those so called "experts" were really CIA agents. It shocks me how gullible some people can be.
    So now I'm gullible for believing (apparently) your straw man?

    The people on the programme were undoubtedly legitimate experts, taking the fact that buildings had fallen down due to planes crashing into them, and explaining how that fact occurred. What they weren't doing was comparing the likelihood or otherwise of different scenarios of how they fell. I could explain to you how Jesus might have raised Lazarus from the dead -wouldn't make you believe it any more (assuming you don't).
  • I actually went to this when I was living in CO! Can't say I was entirely convinced by the "truther", but it was interesting none the less:
    http://www.ae911truth.org/news/459-uc-boulder-debate.html

    For those who want to know more about the role of molten aluminium in the collapse of the Twin Towers:

    http://www.livescience.com/16179-twin-tower-collapse-model-squash-9-11-conspiracies.html
    Skyscrapers aren't normally made of aluminium, it's too weak.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    the people of Lewes will "rue the day". Burn him !

    Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 3m3 minutes ago
    In the Lewes effigy of @alexsalmond he appears to be holding a "45%" wooden spoon ... And Nessie pic.twitter.com/18YcVWeFzG

    The comments are priceless - I particularly liked: "ignorant sassenachs bet they vote Tory or UKIP", though I fear they'd be even more indignant if they knew how Lewes actually votes...

    The big slimy grinning dinosaur is going up in flames - and is that Nessie in the background too ?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Indigo said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Foreign policy should be dictated by the pursuit of the national interest within acceptable moral boundaries.

    "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    YES. Note the word 'our' rather than 'America's'. Palmerston must be turning in his grave.
    I didn't see your answer the other day on what you thought probably happened on 9/11.
    I didn't see the question, apologies. I tend toward the theory that the attack was planned and carried out by deep state elements or rogue networks within the US. Not that the planes or the hijackers did not exist, just that they were part of a far wider plan.
    So the 9/11 hijackers were part of a wide plan carried out by "deep state elements". I presume you mean the US.
    Were these suicide hijackers US agents or unwitting pawns? It's generally accepted that Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks, so was Osama working for the US too? What did the US get out of killing 3,000 of it's own citizens?
    Is this belief widespread amongst the UKIP supporting community?
    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.
    Thanks for your very kind comments.

    They are actually all part of the same thing. I tend to be very sceptical of what I read in the press.

    I an not 'pro Putin'. Vladimir Putin is undoubtedly ruthless and growingly autocratic, but the caricature in the media of a Dick Darstardly style villain who invades on a whim is simply silly. Even Hitler had a game plan. Do I believe Putin's game plan is to control and dominate our country and my life? Nope. Is there anything to be gained from antagonising him? Nope. Are we doing it because America (who recently called him the biggest threat to humanity) are doing it? Yep. Is this an area where their interests and ours are misaligned, therefore we should shut our traps and see which way things go? Yep.

    I don't believe in 'conspiracy theories' as some sort of rule -if I think there is one, I believe in it. Same as everybody else.
    We have disagreed sharply in the past but IMHO you are quite correct about this.
    Thanks -can't even remember what it was about!
  • Socrates said:


    I an not 'pro Putin'. Vladimir Putin is undoubtedly ruthless and growingly autocratic, but the caricature in the media of a Dick Darstardly style villain who invades on a whim is simply silly. Even Hitler had a game plan. Do I believe Putin's game plan is to control and dominate our country and my life? Nope. Is there anything to be gained from antagonising him? Nope. Are we doing it because America (who recently called him the biggest threat to humanity) are doing it? Yep. Is this an area where their interests and ours are misaligned, therefore we should shut our traps and see which way things go? Yep.

    Britain's and America's (and France's and Germany's) interest in Ukraine is entirely aligned. It is moral and good to encourage them to move to a democratic system, and it is very dangerous to allow nations to invade and annex part of their neighbours.
    What was you reaction to Israel's unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem and the Golan in 1980-1981?
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Luckyguy1983 - the steel RSJs in my house are protected from fire (a domestic fire) by fire proof boxing - the reason is, steel gets soft when hot - like a blacksmith knows when he is fitting a horse shoe.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    chestnut said:

    North Warwickshire

    Ashcroft sample 31 Mar 2014 - 6 Apr 2014 (YG used for comparable regional and nationals)

    National: LAB 38 CON 33
    Midlands: LAB 41 CON 33
    Constituency: LAB 43 CON 35 (labour lead 8)

    Last Week

    National: LAB 33 CON 32 (lead down 4)
    Midlands: LAB 33 CON 32 (lead down 7)
    Constituency: LAB .... CON ....

    Aptly illustrating what Ashcroft himself says repeatedly - his polls are snapshots and not forecasts - someone needs to tell this to Hugh/bio, etc.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LuckyGuy combines excellent economic and domestic policy beliefs, with a bizarre anti-Americanisn, an absurd belief in conspiracy theories, and a disturbing love of Vladamir Putin.

    The belief in conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the defensiveness over Putin are both products of the anti-Americanism, in my opinion. Lucky is a nice guy, and a smart guy, but his coherence goes off the rails when the US comes into it. He believes the British Empire was much better as a superpower than the USA was, and for this he cites the British Empire being more of a force for free trade. Apparently some protectionist tariffs after the Great Depression are a greater crime against free trade than a mercantilist system of monopolies and 80%+ taxes over the entirety of a subcontinent.
    You should really compare like-for-like i.e. what one country was doing vis a vis its contemporaries, not against another country two or three centuries later / earlier, when global conditions were immensely different.
    Only to a point though. The change in global norms from an imperialist one to a democratic one was in part due to the US surpassing the British Empire.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Socrates - the UK should pull out of protecting the EU, leave it to the Germans with their 1.3% GDP investment in defence and their 8 functional Eurofighters (they say they won't increase spend because it might annoy Russia),
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:



    There was a very good documentary on television which explained precisely how the towers fell as a result of the planes crashing into them. The explanations were given by structural engineers and others who have precisely the sort of expertise which would enable them to understand and explain the mechanics.

    I don't doubt it. To set against that, there is an entire society called 'Architects and Engineers for 9-11 truth'. Which is obviously a slightly bigger affair than some talking heads on a programme. You might ask yourself (though you'll know the answer) why no opposing opinions were sought for your programme.

    http://www.ae911truth.org


    Ah yes: the size of a society is the key factor in determining whether what they say is valid or not.

    One of the "talking heads" on the programme, BTW, was one of the structural engineers involved in the building of the Twin Towers and who, one might reasonably expect, would know a great deal about how the building was constructed, what impacts it was designed to withstand, the level of fireproofing the steel had and how it would or would not survive being blown off by a large jet and how long steel without fireproofing can survive a fire - not just from the aviation fuel - but from all the other burning material.

  • New thread - PB October polling average!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670


    Do you think it would have been easier for Bush and Co. to find support at home and in the wider world for war in Iraq with or without 9/11?

    Very hard to say. I imagine that without 9/11 they'd have concocted a weapons of mass destruction narrative (which they also did even with 9/11) to get the home support. It's not liking bombing Iraq was a unpopular policy domestically. Clinton would do it whenever he got bored.

    Having to deal with the Taliban/Al Qaeda was a massive headache for the Bush admin - 9/11 caused them massive problems which is the principle reason to think 9/11 being a false flag operation is ridiculous.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Socrates said:


    I an not 'pro Putin'. Vladimir Putin is undoubtedly ruthless and growingly autocratic, but the caricature in the media of a Dick Darstardly style villain who invades on a whim is simply silly. Even Hitler had a game plan. Do I believe Putin's game plan is to control and dominate our country and my life? Nope. Is there anything to be gained from antagonising him? Nope. Are we doing it because America (who recently called him the biggest threat to humanity) are doing it? Yep. Is this an area where their interests and ours are misaligned, therefore we should shut our traps and see which way things go? Yep.

    Britain's and America's (and France's and Germany's) interest in Ukraine is entirely aligned. It is moral and good to encourage them to move to a democratic system, and it is very dangerous to allow nations to invade and annex part of their neighbours.
    It was hardly a move toward a democratic system to unseat the democratically elected (UN observed, so don't try it) President.

    Our policy toward Russia should be one of caution, cordial relations, and positive engagement, based on our scary energy needs.

    Here's our policy toward Saudi Arabia, a far worse and more pernicious energy rich country:

    http://www.spa.gov.sa/galupload/normal/119880_1352213987_9161.jpg

    America may not need Russian gas, and that's fine -their policy toward Russia is a reckless one of ramping up the rhetoric and seeking conflict. We should not be joining them -it is utterly counter to our own needs.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited November 2014
    "He's welcome to tell me how aviation fuel or burning debris is capable of bringing down a steel framed skyscraper -I look forward to it."

    Because steel becomes very weak at temperatures much above 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, and certainly too weak to hold up a massive skyscraper.
  • Alistair said:


    Do you think it would have been easier for Bush and Co. to find support at home and in the wider world for war in Iraq with or without 9/11?

    Very hard to say. I imagine that without 9/11 they'd have concocted a weapons of mass destruction narrative (which they also did even with 9/11) to get the home support. It's not liking bombing Iraq was a unpopular policy domestically. Clinton would do it whenever he got bored.

    Having to deal with the Taliban/Al Qaeda was a massive headache for the Bush admin - 9/11 caused them massive problems which is the principle reason to think 9/11 being a false flag operation is ridiculous.
    Which country lies exactly in between Iraq and Afghanistan? Check your atlas!
This discussion has been closed.