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  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited November 2014
    Speedy said:

    Something for the previous topic but I was too busy to post.

    I have noticed that the Tories are leveling their score throughout the country.
    In 2012 it was typical to see a 35% difference between the South and Scotland or 25% with the North, now that has halved even as the Tory share nationally is the same.

    That suggests to me that it is both easier for the Tories to get many more seats that UNS suggests and a greater risk of scoring severely fewer seats than UNS suggests at the same time (a majority or less seats than 1997), as the Tory vote is now spread thin, while in the past it was concentrated in the South.

    The next GE will be very fascinating, in past elections the outcome was determined in 100 marginals seats, in May it could be 300 seats or more.

    It's hard to believe the dispersion of the vote or the operation of the electoral system would change (and reverse) so radically.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited November 2014
    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    It's official, Theresa May has lost her mind:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5m5 minutes ago
    This looks fun. 6 months to GE15 and Tory leadership wars pic.twitter.com/8sP8z7qOMa


    Or she's preparing for a possible leadership race should Cameron lose a no confidence vote after Rochester.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Something for the previous topic but I was too busy to post.

    I have noticed that the Tories are leveling their score throughout the country.
    In 2012 it was typical to see a 35% difference between the South and Scotland or 25% with the North, now that has halved even as the Tory share nationally is the same.

    That suggests to me that it is both easier for the Tories to get many more seats that UNS suggests and a greater risk of scoring severely fewer seats than UNS suggests at the same time (a majority or less seats than 1997), as the Tory vote is now spread thin, while in the past it was concentrated in the South.

    The next GE will be very fascinating, in past elections the outcome was determined in 100 marginals seats, in May it could be 300 seats or more.

    It's hard to believe the dispersion of the vote or the operation of the electoral system would change so radically.
    Well the country is getting balkanized politically, once past strongholds are now falling to insurgent parties.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Hugh said:

    Rupert Murdoch's 21st Century Fox reported profits of $999m (£624m) in the third quarter, buoyed by strong earnings in its film and cable television units. The company also said revenue rose to $8.42bn, a 17% increase from the same period last year.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29903671

    There are a few things certain in this world and one of them is that old Rupert always has the last laugh.

    His criminal employees hacking the phones of dead children was a right hoot.
    What's your opinion of the criminal hackers at the mirror?
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    YouGov

    Lab 337
    Con 269
    Lib 16

    Ed Miliband Prime Minister, Majority 24
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Are there any decent betting opportunities re. the mid term elections?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    PS Sorry, Tim, just noticed you said you loved it - might have been a bit more tactful if I'd seen that.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited November 2014
    Hugh said:

    YouGov

    Lab 337
    Con 269
    Lib 16

    Ed Miliband Prime Minister, Majority 24

    Edit sorry, I was thinking 625 was the total not 650

    But that adds up to 622 - 23 for NI, SNP, Gr, UKIP
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

    Aw c'mon Nick - she grew up castrating hogs so she knows how to cut pork - great line.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited November 2014

    PS Sorry, Tim, just noticed you said you loved it - might have been a bit more tactful if I'd seen that.

    No problem Nick. Many of these ads are just awful - at least this one was humorous. Remember I've been exposed to political ads for 35 years, so my terms of reference are probably different to yours. UK PPBs don't do it for me.

    If she was castrating cats I could understand your outrage :-)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

    You ain't seen nothing yet:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW71a6mnGjA
  • AndyJS said:

    No surprise - some people on Newsnight have been offended by the naming of the 16 year old murderer yesterday.

    I must say I'm troubled by this. It's undoubtedly a matter where the public are interested. But he's a young boy and clearly severely disturbed, and the release of his name and photo is not going to do anything to help start the long process of rehabilitating him.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

    Aw c'mon Nick - she grew up castrating hogs so she knows how to cut pork - great line.
    It's a great ad. I've seen compilations of the best ads of the cycle and this one is stand-out excellent.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Speedy said:

    It's official, Theresa May has lost her mind:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5m5 minutes ago
    This looks fun. 6 months to GE15 and Tory leadership wars pic.twitter.com/8sP8z7qOMa


    Or she's preparing for a possible leadership race should Cameron lose a no confidence vote after Rochester.

    If there were a leadership race before the GE, would tory party rules allow boris to stand?
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited November 2014

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 12s13 seconds ago
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by two: CON 32%, LAB 34%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%, GRN 6%

    I see King Dan and his merry men have fallen back down the hill again. Basil is gutted and meandering once more.
  • The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited November 2014
    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Something for the previous topic but I was too busy to post.

    I have noticed that the Tories are leveling their score throughout the country.
    In 2012 it was typical to see a 35% difference between the South and Scotland or 25% with the North, now that has halved even as the Tory share nationally is the same.

    That suggests to me that it is both easier for the Tories to get many more seats that UNS suggests and a greater risk of scoring severely fewer seats than UNS suggests at the same time (a majority or less seats than 1997), as the Tory vote is now spread thin, while in the past it was concentrated in the South.

    The next GE will be very fascinating, in past elections the outcome was determined in 100 marginals seats, in May it could be 300 seats or more.

    It's hard to believe the dispersion of the vote or the operation of the electoral system would change so radically.
    Well the country is getting balkanized politically, once past strongholds are now falling to insurgent parties.
    In a handful of places, so far.

    There has been a process of divergence and concentration of the vote going on for 60 years, producing the "Labour North" and "Tory South", resulting in a halving in the number of marginal seats (one of the components, incidentally, of the increased chance of NOM.) I see no sign of that reversing.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    PS Sorry, Tim, just noticed you said you loved it - might have been a bit more tactful if I'd seen that.

    Typical Labour - tell people what they want to hear; say what you really think on the way back to the car expecting the mic to be off. #bigotgate
  • RobD said:

    Hugh said:

    Rupert Murdoch's 21st Century Fox reported profits of $999m (£624m) in the third quarter, buoyed by strong earnings in its film and cable television units. The company also said revenue rose to $8.42bn, a 17% increase from the same period last year.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29903671

    There are a few things certain in this world and one of them is that old Rupert always has the last laugh.

    His criminal employees hacking the phones of dead children was a right hoot.
    I get the impression you aren't keen on Murdoch or his empire?
    Labour supporters have rather gone off Mr Murdoch, since he stopped supporting Labour. I suppose it's understandable, if a touch ungrateful for all his help over the years.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

    Aw c'mon Nick - she grew up castrating hogs so she knows how to cut pork - great line.
    It's a great ad. I've seen compilations of the best ads of the cycle and this one is stand-out excellent.
    You're lucky - I've had to sit through them all, one at a time. If there's a runoff I'll have 2 more months of it.

    Don't forget your homburg!!! :-)
  • And in others news in an event more certain the the Pope's catholicism :

    EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100billion of its own spending

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Something for the previous topic but I was too busy to post.

    I have noticed that the Tories are leveling their score throughout the country.
    In 2012 it was typical to see a 35% difference between the South and Scotland or 25% with the North, now that has halved even as the Tory share nationally is the same.

    That suggests to me that it is both easier for the Tories to get many more seats that UNS suggests and a greater risk of scoring severely fewer seats than UNS suggests at the same time (a majority or less seats than 1997), as the Tory vote is now spread thin, while in the past it was concentrated in the South.

    The next GE will be very fascinating, in past elections the outcome was determined in 100 marginals seats, in May it could be 300 seats or more.

    It's hard to believe the dispersion of the vote or the operation of the electoral system would change so radically.
    Well the country is getting balkanized politically, once past strongholds are now falling to insurgent parties.
    In a handful of places, so far.

    There has been a process of divergence and concentration of the vote going on for 70 years, producing the "Labour North" and "Tory South", resulting in a halving in the number of marginal seats (one of the components, incidentally, of the increased chance of NOM.) I see no sign of that reversing.
    Well the Labour North and the Tory South is not what it used to be with UKIP and the SNP anymore.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2014
    The Democrats are currently 36 to keep control of the Senate with Betfair.

    Does anyone on PB think they might do it?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/market?marketId=1.109528811&eventTypeId=2378961
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    AndyJS said:

    The Democrats are currently 36 to keep control of the Senate with Betfair.

    Does anyone on PB think they might do it?

    It's unlikely
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2014

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
  • AndyJS said:

    The Democrats are currently 36 to keep control of the Senate with Betfair.

    Does anyone on PB think they might do it?

    Caution - that is NOT a market on whether they keep controlk of the Senate, it's a market about whether they end up with a majority of seats excluding independents who caucus with them (currently two).

    So, no, they won't do it. It's a mug's bet.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    If the Republicans had a decent presidential candidate (preferably 2 or 3 to choose from) in the offing, then these mid terms might be important.
    As it is they are not electing a president, in particular they will bot be re-electing Obama, they are not changing the govt of the country and the Republicans will as usual tear themselves apart in a battle of political purity v realism.
    If she stays fit and well then the battle is for Hillary to lose. Sadly.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    RobD said:

    Hugh said:

    Rupert Murdoch's 21st Century Fox reported profits of $999m (£624m) in the third quarter, buoyed by strong earnings in its film and cable television units. The company also said revenue rose to $8.42bn, a 17% increase from the same period last year.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29903671

    There are a few things certain in this world and one of them is that old Rupert always has the last laugh.

    His criminal employees hacking the phones of dead children was a right hoot.
    I get the impression you aren't keen on Murdoch or his empire?
    Labour supporters have rather gone off Mr Murdoch, since he stopped supporting Labour. I suppose it's understandable, if a touch ungrateful for all his help over the years.
    And Conservative supporters have continued to back him no matter how bad the crimes of his employees , no doubt hoping that support will be paid back in the future .
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033

    And in others news in an event more certain the the Pope's catholicism :

    EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100billion of its own spending

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html

    When are they every going to sign off the EUs accounts?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    If the Republicans had a decent presidential candidate (preferably 2 or 3 to choose from) in the offing, then these mid terms might be important.
    As it is they are not electing a president, in particular they will bot be re-electing Obama, they are not changing the govt of the country and the Republicans will as usual tear themselves apart in a battle of political purity v realism.
    If she stays fit and well then the battle is for Hillary to lose. Sadly.

    Hillary will win in 2016 no matter what, but she will lose in 2020 due to the economy imploding again and people being bored with her character and her party.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    If the Republicans had a decent presidential candidate (preferably 2 or 3 to choose from) in the offing, then these mid terms might be important.
    As it is they are not electing a president, in particular they will bot be re-electing Obama, they are not changing the govt of the country and the Republicans will as usual tear themselves apart in a battle of political purity v realism.
    If she stays fit and well then the battle is for Hillary to lose. Sadly.

    If the Republicans take the Senate they ARE changing the government
  • Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Journalistic froth, obviously. No member of the Conservative Party is going to take the slightest interest in mobile phone masts one way or the other, so the idea that this is some kind of leadership bid is out with the fairies.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

    Aw c'mon Nick - she grew up castrating hogs so she knows how to cut pork - great line.
    It's a great ad. I've seen compilations of the best ads of the cycle and this one is stand-out excellent.
    You're lucky - I've had to sit through them all, one at a time. If there's a runoff I'll have 2 more months of it.

    Don't forget your homburg!!! :-)
    Yes it must be terrible to put up with these wall-to-wall. I can't remember where I saw the compilation. Over at Hotair maybe? Anyway, I got 10 minutes of the best ones; you got 6 months of the worst. My genuine sympathy!

    Homburg already set at a jaunty angle. Carnation firmly in lapel.
    All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up :)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RobD said:

    And in others news in an event more certain the the Pope's catholicism :

    EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100billion of its own spending

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html

    When are they every going to sign off the EUs accounts?
    After the UK leaves?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

    A little simplistic and unidimensional, perhaps, but not sure you and I have the same concept of "disgusting".

    Maybe it's 'cos I grew up on a a farm...
  • Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Perhaps Ed Miliband and Ed Balls will go to war over broadband roll out?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2014
    On the 2014 fight impacting 2016:

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/midterm-elections-2014-rand-paul-is-go-to-republican-for-2014-candidates-1415107374?tesla=y

    "Kentucky Senator’s Groundwork Helped Him Vault From Tea-Party Star to Serious Presidential Contender in 2016"
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Speedy said:

    If the Republicans had a decent presidential candidate (preferably 2 or 3 to choose from) in the offing, then these mid terms might be important.
    As it is they are not electing a president, in particular they will bot be re-electing Obama, they are not changing the govt of the country and the Republicans will as usual tear themselves apart in a battle of political purity v realism.
    If she stays fit and well then the battle is for Hillary to lose. Sadly.

    Hillary will win in 2016 no matter what, but she will lose in 2020 due to the economy imploding again and people being bored with her character and her party.
    You might want to tether your cocoanuts on this one for a minute.

    She and Bill have been stumping the country relentlessly trying to drum up support for Dems.

    IF the night goes badly for the Dems, it might raise some questions as to why she can't move the needle. Just sayin'
  • Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Journalistic froth, obviously. No member of the Conservative Party is going to take the slightest interest in mobile phone masts one way or the other, so the idea that this is some kind of leadership bid is out with the fairies.
    Perhaps on Friday we might expect news of Vince Cable backstabbing Nick Clegg in some bitter dispute over free wifi in public libraries
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    The Democrats are currently 36 to keep control of the Senate with Betfair.

    Does anyone on PB think they might do it?

    Caution - that is NOT a market on whether they keep controlk of the Senate, it's a market about whether they end up with a majority of seats excluding independents who caucus with them (currently two).

    So, no, they won't do it. It's a mug's bet.
    Okay, thanks. I've put £2 on them anyway just in case something strange happens.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Tim_B said:

    PS Sorry, Tim, just noticed you said you loved it - might have been a bit more tactful if I'd seen that.

    No problem Nick. Many of these ads are just awful - at least this one was humorous. Remember I've been exposed to political ads for 35 years, so my terms of reference are probably different to yours. UK PPBs don't do it for me.

    If she was castrating cats I could understand your outrage :-)
    Lol, fair enough.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Speaking of Iowa. Love this ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU

    What a disgusting advert. If she was running against Count Dracula I'd vote the vampire ticket.

    Aw c'mon Nick - she grew up castrating hogs so she knows how to cut pork - great line.
    It's a great ad. I've seen compilations of the best ads of the cycle and this one is stand-out excellent.
    You're lucky - I've had to sit through them all, one at a time. If there's a runoff I'll have 2 more months of it.

    Don't forget your homburg!!! :-)
    Yes it must be terrible to put up with these wall-to-wall. I can't remember where I saw the compilation. Over at Hotair maybe? Anyway, I got 10 minutes of the best ones; you got 6 months of the worst. My genuine sympathy!

    Homburg already set at a jaunty angle. Carnation firmly in lapel.
    All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up :)
    They had a quick shot of the room on Fox. They're all either bald old or fat. You must have been in the bathroom.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited November 2014

    Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Journalistic froth, obviously. No member of the Conservative Party is going to take the slightest interest in mobile phone masts one way or the other, so the idea that this is some kind of leadership bid is out with the fairies.
    I've read the piece.

    I've decided Theresa May is either bonkers or on manoeuvres.

    She's actually written a letter about it To the PM and other cabinet ministers.

    However, Mrs May, who was criticised this week by Norman Baker on his resignation as a home office minister for being “uncollegiate”, has warned the prime minister and other senior cabinet members that the change risked undermining national security.

    Her letter said that two of the proposed options, including national roaming, “could have a detrimental impact on law enforcement, security and intelligence agency access to communications data and lawful intercept”.

    She also raises objections to another option, allowing companies such as Tesco to offer customers packages that use all four of the main networks.

    Mrs May calls for further studies to make sure that the changes do not stop police from accessing “information that is crucial to keeping us safe”. She argues that their ability to listen to calls and read emails is “vital to protecting the public from crime and terrorism”.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited November 2014
    Speedy said:

    On the 2014 fight impacting 2016:

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/midterm-elections-2014-rand-paul-is-go-to-republican-for-2014-candidates-1415107374?tesla=y

    "Kentucky Senator’s Groundwork Helped Him Vault From Tea-Party Star to Serious Presidential Contender in 2016"

    He also speaks sense on what the Republicans need to do to broaden their appeal. He's gone from zero to hero fast.

    He and Ted Cruz did lots of campaigning for establishment Republican candidates - a sign the Tea Party war may be over.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014

    Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Journalistic froth, obviously. No member of the Conservative Party is going to take the slightest interest in mobile phone masts one way or the other, so the idea that this is some kind of leadership bid is out with the fairies.
    I've read the piece.

    I've decided Theresa May is either bonkers on manoeuvres.

    She's actually written a letter about it To the PM and other cabinet ministers.

    However, Mrs May, who was criticised this week by Norman Baker on his resignation as a home office minister for being “uncollegiate”, has warned the prime minister and other senior cabinet members that the change risked undermining national security.

    Her letter said that two of the proposed options, including national roaming, “could have a detrimental impact on law enforcement, security and intelligence agency access to communications data and lawful intercept”.

    She also raises objections to another option, allowing companies such as Tesco to offer customers packages that use all four of the main networks.

    Mrs May calls for further studies to make sure that the changes do not stop police from accessing “information that is crucial to keeping us safe”. She argues that their ability to listen to calls and read emails is “vital to protecting the public from crime and terrorism”.
    Surely this is a classic case of the obvious explanation being the right one - that she is genuinely concerned, on the advice of the spooks, that there is some problem.

    I've no idea whether she's right, but there's no conceivable ulterior motive for raising the issue.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited November 2014
    @TSE

    I'm stuck in Manchester for the night and have a train to get at 6.49am tomorrow. Would you recommend a trip to Poptastic?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    On the 2014 fight impacting 2016:

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/midterm-elections-2014-rand-paul-is-go-to-republican-for-2014-candidates-1415107374?tesla=y

    "Kentucky Senator’s Groundwork Helped Him Vault From Tea-Party Star to Serious Presidential Contender in 2016"

    He also speaks sense on what the Republicans need to do to broaden their appeal. He's gone from zero to hero fast.
    Too fast, I say.
    He needs to make a serious pitch to California, it's in the middle of an existential crisis and is looking for a savior with a water plan.
    If he makes a serious proposal to save California from becoming a desert that we will become President alright, using the same pre-1992 strategy that gave Republicans the white house.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Full list of main party candidates now available for Birmingham Edgbaston:

    Con: Luke Evans
    Lab: Gisela Stuart
    LD: Lee Dargue
    UKIP: Keith Rowe
    Greens: Phil Simpson
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi
    Big sister is keen to keep watching you.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    On the 2014 fight impacting 2016:

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/midterm-elections-2014-rand-paul-is-go-to-republican-for-2014-candidates-1415107374?tesla=y

    "Kentucky Senator’s Groundwork Helped Him Vault From Tea-Party Star to Serious Presidential Contender in 2016"

    He also speaks sense on what the Republicans need to do to broaden their appeal. He's gone from zero to hero fast.
    Too fast, I say.
    He needs to make a serious pitch to California, it's in the middle of an existential crisis and is looking for a savior with a water plan.
    If he makes a serious proposal to save California from becoming a desert that we will become President alright, using the same pre-1992 strategy that gave Republicans the white house.
    I'm not sure the California water problem is fixable long term
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited November 2014
    Kentucky 1% in - Grimes 38% McConnell 60%
  • Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Journalistic froth, obviously. No member of the Conservative Party is going to take the slightest interest in mobile phone masts one way or the other, so the idea that this is some kind of leadership bid is out with the fairies.
    I've read the piece.

    I've decided Theresa May is either bonkers on manoeuvres.

    She's actually written a letter about it To the PM and other cabinet ministers.

    However, Mrs May, who was criticised this week by Norman Baker on his resignation as a home office minister for being “uncollegiate”, has warned the prime minister and other senior cabinet members that the change risked undermining national security.

    Her letter said that two of the proposed options, including national roaming, “could have a detrimental impact on law enforcement, security and intelligence agency access to communications data and lawful intercept”.

    She also raises objections to another option, allowing companies such as Tesco to offer customers packages that use all four of the main networks.

    Mrs May calls for further studies to make sure that the changes do not stop police from accessing “information that is crucial to keeping us safe”. She argues that their ability to listen to calls and read emails is “vital to protecting the public from crime and terrorism”.
    Surely this is a classic case of the obvious explanation being the right one - that she is genuinely concerned, on the advice of the spooks, that there is some problem.

    I've no idea whether she's right, but there's no conceivable ulterior motive for raising the issue.
    It is the rather public way she's gone about it that is raising suspicions.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited November 2014
    Neil said:

    @TSE

    I'm stuck in Manchester for the night and have a train to get at 6.49am tomorrow. Would you recommend a trip to Poptastic?

    Always.

    You can never go wrong in poptastic.

    It is so much fun.

    In an alternate universe I'm a DJ in poptastic.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2014

    Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Journalistic froth, obviously. No member of the Conservative Party is going to take the slightest interest in mobile phone masts one way or the other, so the idea that this is some kind of leadership bid is out with the fairies.
    I've read the piece.

    I've decided Theresa May is either bonkers on manoeuvres.

    She's actually written a letter about it To the PM and other cabinet ministers.

    However, Mrs May, who was criticised this week by Norman Baker on his resignation as a home office minister for being “uncollegiate”, has warned the prime minister and other senior cabinet members that the change risked undermining national security.

    Her letter said that two of the proposed options, including national roaming, “could have a detrimental impact on law enforcement, security and intelligence agency access to communications data and lawful intercept”.

    She also raises objections to another option, allowing companies such as Tesco to offer customers packages that use all four of the main networks.

    Mrs May calls for further studies to make sure that the changes do not stop police from accessing “information that is crucial to keeping us safe”. She argues that their ability to listen to calls and read emails is “vital to protecting the public from crime and terrorism”.
    Surely this is a classic case of the obvious explanation being the right one - that she is genuinely concerned, on the advice of the spooks, that there is some problem.

    I've no idea whether she's right, but there's no conceivable ulterior motive for raising the issue.
    Either May is trying to have a Euro-sausage moment, using something trivial to up her political stock, however she is taking the unpopular side of the issue.
    Or simply she is bonkers.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Something for the previous topic but I was too busy to post.

    I have noticed that the Tories are leveling their score throughout the country.
    In 2012 it was typical to see a 35% difference between the South and Scotland or 25% with the North, now that has halved even as the Tory share nationally is the same.

    That suggests to me that it is both easier for the Tories to get many more seats that UNS suggests and a greater risk of scoring severely fewer seats than UNS suggests at the same time (a majority or less seats than 1997), as the Tory vote is now spread thin, while in the past it was concentrated in the South.

    The next GE will be very fascinating, in past elections the outcome was determined in 100 marginals seats, in May it could be 300 seats or more.

    It's hard to believe the dispersion of the vote or the operation of the electoral system would change so radically.
    Well the country is getting balkanized politically, once past strongholds are now falling to insurgent parties.
    In a handful of places, so far.

    There has been a process of divergence and concentration of the vote going on for 70 years, producing the "Labour North" and "Tory South", resulting in a halving in the number of marginal seats (one of the components, incidentally, of the increased chance of NOM.) I see no sign of that reversing.
    Well the Labour North and the Tory South is not what it used to be with UKIP and the SNP anymore.
    We will have to see how well these parties perform, but the idea they will produce more Lab-Con marginals is baseless. The example of the LibDems 1974 onwards is it will produce even fewer...
  • Pong said:

    Speedy said:

    It's official, Theresa May has lost her mind:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5m5 minutes ago
    This looks fun. 6 months to GE15 and Tory leadership wars pic.twitter.com/8sP8z7qOMa


    Or she's preparing for a possible leadership race should Cameron lose a no confidence vote after Rochester.

    If there were a leadership race before the GE, would tory party rules allow boris to stand?

    I thought it was settled he had to be an MP....or have I missed something?

    Btw, check your email. [Diplomacy.]
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @TSE

    I'll request a Crystal Swing song on your (and pbc's) behalf. Let's hope I dont get chucked out too early.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    edited November 2014

    Speedy said:

    The Times splash is ostensibly somewhat bizarre. It appears to suggest that Theresa has begun a war with Javid over mobile phone masts. Not the story I suspect many were expecting

    I know it's bizarre, Theresa May thinking that mobile phones are a threat to national security sounds bonkers, what will she do ban them from Britain?
    Any reaction on the Times front page from other PB'rs?
    Journalistic froth, obviously. No member of the Conservative Party is going to take the slightest interest in mobile phone masts one way or the other, so the idea that this is some kind of leadership bid is out with the fairies.
    I've read the piece.

    I've decided Theresa May is either bonkers on manoeuvres.

    She's actually written a letter about it To the PM and other cabinet ministers.

    However, Mrs May, who was criticised this week by Norman Baker on his resignation as a home office minister for being “uncollegiate”, has warned the prime minister and other senior cabinet members that the change risked undermining national security.

    Her letter said that two of the proposed options, including national roaming, “could have a detrimental impact on law enforcement, security and intelligence agency access to communications data and lawful intercept”.

    She also raises objections to another option, allowing companies such as Tesco to offer customers packages that use all four of the main networks.

    Mrs May calls for further studies to make sure that the changes do not stop police from accessing “information that is crucial to keeping us safe”. She argues that their ability to listen to calls and read emails is “vital to protecting the public from crime and terrorism”.
    Surely this is a classic case of the obvious explanation being the right one - that she is genuinely concerned, on the advice of the spooks, that there is some problem.
    I seem to have heard something to the effect that the US security agencies are hoping mad with people like Apple for fiendishly encripting their phones - much to the joy of terrorists whose sole purpose is to kill Apple's customers.

    "Just a moment...just a moment...'' as HAL would say... yes here it is
    http://hotair.com/archives/2014/09/26/fbi-chief-rips-apple-google-for-adding-unbreakable-encryption-to-their-smart-phones/

    Seems to me its a legitimate concern.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    On the 2014 fight impacting 2016:

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/midterm-elections-2014-rand-paul-is-go-to-republican-for-2014-candidates-1415107374?tesla=y

    "Kentucky Senator’s Groundwork Helped Him Vault From Tea-Party Star to Serious Presidential Contender in 2016"

    He also speaks sense on what the Republicans need to do to broaden their appeal. He's gone from zero to hero fast.
    Too fast, I say.
    He needs to make a serious pitch to California, it's in the middle of an existential crisis and is looking for a savior with a water plan.
    If he makes a serious proposal to save California from becoming a desert that we will become President alright, using the same pre-1992 strategy that gave Republicans the white house.
    I'm not sure the California water problem is fixable long term
    I have a plan, I developed it for the Med 9 years ago, it could work for California.
  • Neil said:

    @TSE

    I'll request a Crystal Swing song on your (and pbc's) behalf. Let's hope I dont get chucked out too early.

    Be careful.

    I was nearly ejected headfirst from there for suggesting they play Achy Breaky Heart.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Polls close at 7 et in GA, IN, SC, VT, VA.

    at 7.30 ET in NC, OH, WV
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Flightpath
    Encryption of data is wrong? How very quaint.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Just updated my iPad 2 with iOs 8.1 — and it's going about a million times slower. And I had read about the problems with the update a few weeks ago.

    Stupidly I thought they might have sorted it out by now, but obviously they don't want to in order to force people to buy new devices.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Smarmeron said:

    @Flightpath
    Encryption of data is wrong? How very quaint.

    The NSA scandals have an impact on consumer demand.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    Tim_B said:

    Kentucky 1% in - Grimes 38% McConnell 60%

    Aren't they still voting LOL
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    If the Republicans had a decent presidential candidate (preferably 2 or 3 to choose from) in the offing, then these mid terms might be important.
    As it is they are not electing a president, in particular they will bot be re-electing Obama, they are not changing the govt of the country and the Republicans will as usual tear themselves apart in a battle of political purity v realism.
    If she stays fit and well then the battle is for Hillary to lose. Sadly.

    Hillary will win in 2016 no matter what, but she will lose in 2020 due to the economy imploding again and people being bored with her character and her party.
    You might want to tether your cocoanuts on this one for a minute.

    She and Bill have been stumping the country relentlessly trying to drum up support for Dems.

    IF the night goes badly for the Dems, it might raise some questions as to why she can't move the needle. Just sayin'
    The fact that she (and he) are selflessly working for the party to minimise the defeat (if there is one) ie minimise the dead weighr of Obama, is what will get her the nomination.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Smarmeron said:

    @Flightpath
    Encryption of data is wrong? How very quaint.

    I think it's more that there isn't a back door for the feds
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    AndyJS said:

    Just updated my iPad 2 with iOs 8.1 — and it's going about a million times slower. And I had read about the problems with the update a few weeks ago.

    Stupidly I thought they might have sorted it out by now, but obviously they don't want to in order to force people to buy new devices.

    I noticed this when I upgrade my iPhone 4S to the new OS. Luckily I had already ordered a 6 by this point (and I'm very happy with it so far).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Closing the polls at 6pm in Kentucky doesn't give people much chance to vote after work. Maybe that's the point.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RobD said:

    Tim_B said:

    Kentucky 1% in - Grimes 38% McConnell 60%

    Aren't they still voting LOL
    Kentucky has 2 time zones. East is closed
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    AndyJS said:

    Just updated my iPad 2 with iOs 8.1 — and it's going about a million times slower. And I had read about the problems with the update a few weeks ago.

    Stupidly I thought they might have sorted it out by now, but obviously they don't want to in order to force people to buy new devices.

    Apple is not the company it used to be.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Smarmeron said:

    @Flightpath
    Encryption of data is wrong? How very quaint.

    I think I could argue that the ability to garner information on terroists is slightly less damaging than blowing you and others among our fellow citizens to bits.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    AndyJS said:

    Closing the polls at 6pm in Kentucky doesn't give people much chance to vote after work. Maybe that's the point.

    They open at 6am instead of the usual 7am
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Just updated my iPad 2 with iOs 8.1 — and it's going about a million times slower. And I had read about the problems with the update a few weeks ago.

    Stupidly I thought they might have sorted it out by now, but obviously they don't want to in order to force people to buy new devices.

    Apple is not the company it used to be.
    They used to be more than following Samsung
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tim_B
    It's why we employ hackers and codebreakers. If encryption didn't evolve, they would be out of a job
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @AndyJS
    You could save your files, and do a "restore system" to remove it?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Tim_B said:

    AndyJS said:

    Closing the polls at 6pm in Kentucky doesn't give people much chance to vote after work. Maybe that's the point.

    They open at 6am instead of the usual 7am
    That's okay for early birds. Maybe it's to penalise those who get up at the last minute, go to work, and then want to vote after work. Not possible in Kentucky it seems.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    If the Republicans had a decent presidential candidate (preferably 2 or 3 to choose from) in the offing, then these mid terms might be important.
    As it is they are not electing a president, in particular they will bot be re-electing Obama, they are not changing the govt of the country and the Republicans will as usual tear themselves apart in a battle of political purity v realism.
    If she stays fit and well then the battle is for Hillary to lose. Sadly.

    Hillary will win in 2016 no matter what, but she will lose in 2020 due to the economy imploding again and people being bored with her character and her party.
    You might want to tether your cocoanuts on this one for a minute.

    She and Bill have been stumping the country relentlessly trying to drum up support for Dems.

    IF the night goes badly for the Dems, it might raise some questions as to why she can't move the needle. Just sayin'
    The fact that she (and he) are selflessly working for the party to minimise the defeat (if there is one) ie minimise the dead weighr of Obama, is what will get her the nomination.
    So Romney will get the Republican nomination, by the same logic.

    You may well be right, but I'm not sure it's as automatic as you think.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Kentucky 2% in Grimes 38% McConnell 60%
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2014
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Just updated my iPad 2 with iOs 8.1 — and it's going about a million times slower. And I had read about the problems with the update a few weeks ago.

    Stupidly I thought they might have sorted it out by now, but obviously they don't want to in order to force people to buy new devices.

    I noticed this when I upgrade my iPhone 4S to the new OS. Luckily I had already ordered a 6 by this point (and I'm very happy with it so far).
    I'm a bit puritanical with computing devices. When I buy one I get the best available, but then I expect to be able to carry on using it for at least 5 years. My desktop computer was top of the range, but it's now 10 years old. Still works pretty well.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Hugh said:

    YouGov

    Lab 337
    Con 269
    Lib 16

    Ed Miliband Prime Minister, Majority 24

    lol
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited November 2014
    @Flightpath
    If the price of my safety is being spied on at the whim of some bored knob end, then I will take the terrorists option. (they are both fascists, but there are far fewer terrorists)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Kentucky - opinion of Grimes Fave 45% unfave 52%
    opinion of McConnell - exactly the same

    Importance of control of Senate 88% yes
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Just updated my iPad 2 with iOs 8.1 — and it's going about a million times slower. And I had read about the problems with the update a few weeks ago.

    Stupidly I thought they might have sorted it out by now, but obviously they don't want to in order to force people to buy new devices.

    I noticed this when I upgrade my iPhone 4S to the new OS. Luckily I had already ordered a 6 by this point (and I'm very happy with it so far).
    I'm a bit puritanical with computing devices. When I buy one I get the best available, but then I expect to be able to carry on using it for at least 5 years. My desktop computer was top of the range, but it's now 10 years old. Still works pretty well.
    I should add that it was almost becoming unusable about six months ago, but fibre optic broadband gave it a new lease of life.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tim_B said:

    Kentucky - opinion of Grimes Fave 45% unfave 52%
    opinion of McConnell - exactly the same

    Importance of control of Senate 88% yes

    You are watching CNN too ha?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @Flightpath
    If the price of my safety is being spied on at the whim of some bored knob end, then I will take the terrorists option. (they are both fascists, but there are far fewer terrorists)

    That's all fine and dandy, but what about those who are less keen than you to be blown up, or to have to face the horror of their wives or children being blown up?

    And, get real. Can you really not see the difference between some computer in GCHQ scanning your email headers or phone records, and a terrorist wanting to blow you up?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited November 2014
    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Kentucky - opinion of Grimes Fave 45% unfave 52%
    opinion of McConnell - exactly the same

    Importance of control of Senate 88% yes

    You are watching CNN too ha?
    Nope - Fox News. I need numbers not flashy screens and John King and the dreadful Wolf Blitzer. Fox leaves the crawler on during commercials - not sure if CNN does. CNN gets lousy ratings for a reason. MsNBC exists only to make CNN look good :-)

    Just checked - CNN puts national poll numbers up during breaks.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited November 2014
    @Richard_Nabavi
    You get real. The reason we are supposed to be fighting terrorism is to protect our freedoms.
    One of which is the right to privacy.
    What else would you give up to stop the nasty bogeymen?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Kentucky - opinion of Grimes Fave 45% unfave 52%
    opinion of McConnell - exactly the same

    Importance of control of Senate 88% yes

    You are watching CNN too ha?
    Nope - Fox News. I need numbers not flashy screens and John Roberts. Fox leaves the crawler on during commercials - not sure if CNN does. CNN gets lousy ratings for a reason. MsNBC exists only to make CNN look good :-)
    CNN is very good at election coverage, they broadcast it like it's a natural disaster.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    There are 2 important votes running concurrently in Florida and Washington-DC71 Campaign-on cannabis.Even in the red states the tide is turning.Both GOP and blues are turning both ways on the issue as,on the one hand,to one degree or another they are both funded by Big Pharma and Big Alcohol,yet,on the other,the voters are way ahead of the politicians so,unbelievably,the Californian GOP party is behind the full legalisation election of 2016.If California goes legit,the dam breaks for the rest.There's the game-changer politically.
    Cannabis politics could determine the next POTUS.
  • Smarmeron said:

    @Flightpath
    If the price of my safety is being spied on at the whim of some bored knob end, then I will take the terrorists option. (they are both fascists, but there are far fewer terrorists)

    That's all fine and dandy, but what about those who are less keen than you to be blown up, or to have to face the horror of their wives or children being blown up?

    And, get real. Can you really not see the difference between some computer in GCHQ scanning your email headers or phone records, and a terrorist wanting to blow you up?
    People are touchy about their privacy, Richard.

    I'm with you on this one, having long accepted that part of the price we pay for living in a modern high-tec world is that we not only can be spied upon, we have to be. It stopped bothering me when I realised how little privacy I actually needed, and how little I actually cared about it. For example, I simply assume that all my telecoms can be monitored, and make sure nothing appears in them that would not bear the light of day.

    It's no big deal.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    You get real. The reason we are supposed to be fighting terrorism is to protect our freedoms.
    One of which is the right to privacy.
    What else would you give up to stop the nasty bogeymen?

    You have a right to privacy, within the law. It's not unconditional; for example, you can't keep your financial affairs private from the taxman, or refuse to fill in a census form.

    If you really want to keep your communications private, there's a very simple way. Don't use email, don't use mobile phones, switch off GPS, and don't use Facebook.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033

    There are 2 important votes running concurrently in Florida and Washington-DC71 Campaign-on cannabis.Even in the red states the tide is turning.Both GOP and blues are turning both ways on the issue as,on the one hand,to one degree or another they are both funded by Big Pharma and Big Alcohol,yet,on the other,the voters are way ahead of the politicians so,unbelievably,the Californian GOP party is behind the full legalisation election of 2016.If California goes legit,the dam breaks for the rest.There's the game-changer politically.
    Cannabis politics could determine the next POTUS.

    When voting for presidents, how highly do people put drug legalisation in their reasons for choosing who to vote for? I don't imagine it is that high!
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @volcanopete
    "Cannabis politics could determine the next POTUS"
    Will they be able to inhale the next time?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    hunchman said:
    You know that she has a daughter, so that rumour is silly.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited November 2014
    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Kentucky - opinion of Grimes Fave 45% unfave 52%
    opinion of McConnell - exactly the same

    Importance of control of Senate 88% yes

    You are watching CNN too ha?
    Nope - Fox News. I need numbers not flashy screens and John Roberts. Fox leaves the crawler on during commercials - not sure if CNN does. CNN gets lousy ratings for a reason. MsNBC exists only to make CNN look good :-)
    CNN is very good at election coverage, they broadcast it like it's a natural disaster.
    I have Fox and CNN side by side. Fox is quicker and they give more info.

    If the Democrats lose - to CNN it will be a natural disaster.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Kentucky 5% in - Grimes 45% McConnell 53%
This discussion has been closed.