I think Ukippers' reaction to insults stems from two things.
Disbelief that they as voters are being insulted by a party that wants their votes. Supposedly. It's a bit like walking into a shop and being racially insulted, but the shopkeeper still expects to receive your money.
As pointed out, the Cameroons are very PC about groups that would never vote for them, but outstandingly rude to those who would. The sheer double standard infuriates Ukippers. The example that sticks in my mind is the hoo-ha over revenge porn, but when a young female Ukipper is the victim there was silence from the normally vocal sisterhood.
You're right. A lot of it is due to the way in which people at the top seek to distinguish themselves from ordinary people, by always holding opposite points of view to the man in the street.
A little unfair to take the comment "moany farts" out of context.
It's clear a (not very good) riff on Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Nigel Farage's Moany Farts Club Band)
Why? It makes it no less abusive? it doesn't even have the saving grace of being witty as you point out its not very good (actually its piss poor). But there again you Tories always were the Blue Meanies........
I would put it in the category of not worth getting worked up about.
You guys really do seem to have thin skins.
It's the real oddity of kippers. They detest political correctness. Yet when anyone describes them in terms they regard as disparaging, they squeal like stuck pigs.
I don't agree, Frank.
My experience is that Kippers have a pretty decent sense of humour and don't mind a bit of good-natured ribbing. Marf's 'UKIP Map Of The World' was pretty well received here by Kips and non-Kips alike, with one or two inconsequential exceptions. I now learn that it was reproduced on the Facebook page of the UKIP Parliamentary Candidate for Dover, David Little:
Isn't that one of the anagrams that the Fawlty Towers hotel sign got changed to ?
It is still one of the delightful mysteries of seventies telly - how, in an age when you couldn't say anything remotely rude, let alone sweary, they got away with Flowery Twats.....
The censors probably didn't know what the word meant.
Back in the Sixties, Kenneth Williams got away with Round the Horne which is absolutely filthy.
The camp dialogues between Williams and Hugh Paddick were hilarious but so blue they can only have got through because the authorities simply didn't understand them.
'Bona, bona!'
Timeless brilliance.
My mum is always making the same point. She used to listen to it in the 60s as a teenager. No-one realised how rude it was at the time, as you say.
F1: bit sleepy. One or two betting ideas. May be up tonight, might put the post up tomorrow, depends how the markets go. Race start is 8pm, so there's tons of time.
The UKIP odds in Stocksbridge & Penistone are worth looking at.
I don't think I would fancy being the right honourable er..member for that constituency.
I once read an article by a local chap from the second town complaining about the problems of spelling out the town name when making orders over the telephone - almost always had the phone put down on him after 5 letters.
I can remember when I was a teenager my parents when looking at houses for a house move in South London found a really nice house that basically met all their criteria. Unfortunately it was in a street called "Penistone Road". No offer was made.
I've often thought that the name can't do anything for house price values there...
Back in the 1990s in Paisley they were building some new houses and there was a suggestion that a road be named after a recently-retired local councillor. Unfortunately the developer found that prospective buyers were being put off by the name "Farquharson Gardens" and its likely mis-pronunciations. So the name was changed.
I think Ukippers' reaction to insults stems from two things.
Disbelief that they as voters are being insulted by a party that wants their votes. Supposedly. It's a bit like walking into a shop and being racially insulted, but the shopkeeper still expects to receive your money.
As pointed out, the Cameroons are very PC about groups that would never vote for them, but outstandingly rude to those who would. The sheer double standard infuriates Ukippers. The example that sticks in my mind is the hoo-ha over revenge porn, but when a young female Ukipper is the victim there was silence from the normally vocal sisterhood.
That first paragraph is correct. One regular poster on this site argues that UKIP supporters favour genocide and then criticises them for splitting the right wing vote.
I'm probably being unfair on most Conservative supporters. After all, there were screams of rage from Labour when their LD junior helpers decided to form a coalition with the Tories.
How dare they?
But poor old Ed is now copping it from all and sundry.
I think Ukippers' reaction to insults stems from two things.
Disbelief that they as voters are being insulted by a party that wants their votes. Supposedly. It's a bit like walking into a shop and being racially insulted, but the shopkeeper still expects to receive your money.
As pointed out, the Cameroons are very PC about groups that would never vote for them, but outstandingly rude to those who would. The sheer double standard infuriates Ukippers. The example that sticks in my mind is the hoo-ha over revenge porn, but when a young female Ukipper is the victim there was silence from the normally vocal sisterhood.
Not only that but after a while having the same half a dozen mind-numbingly tedious unintelligent smears repeated over and over again with little or no variety or wit involved does rather get wearisome.
Isn't that one of the anagrams that the Fawlty Towers hotel sign got changed to ?
It is still one of the delightful mysteries of seventies telly - how, in an age when you couldn't say anything remotely rude, let alone sweary, they got away with Flowery Twats.....
The censors probably didn't know what the word meant.
Back in the Sixties, Kenneth Williams got away with Round the Horne which is absolutely filthy.
The camp dialogues between Williams and Hugh Paddick were hilarious but so blue they can only have got through because the authorities simply didn't understand them.
'Bona, bona!'
Timeless brilliance.
My mum is always making the same point. She used to listen to it in the 60s as a teenager. No-one realised how rude it was at the time, as you say.
Oh I think the habituees of Old Compton Street knew perfectly well how rude it was, but fortunately nobody at Broadcasting House.
Isn't that one of the anagrams that the Fawlty Towers hotel sign got changed to ?
It is still one of the delightful mysteries of seventies telly - how, in an age when you couldn't say anything remotely rude, let alone sweary, they got away with Flowery Twats.....
Possibly for the same reason the Goon show got away with having a character, who from memory appeared in numerous episodes, called Hugh Jampton. For that matter how did Kenneth Horn and his team get away with the Julian and Sandy sketches*? ISIRTA also regularly took the piss out of the BBC censorship.
Spike Milligan once put forward the theory that those in authority in the BBC, being nice chaps, just didn't have a clue. I think it more likely that, as long as the breaches in the rules, were not blatant the BBC were happy for them to go ahead.
*I am not sure the BBC would allow Julian and Sandy on air in these more enlightened times.
Round the Horn(e) was SO full of innuendo. Who, of our generation, can forget Rambling Sid Rumpole? Let alone, as previously quoted, Julian and Sandy!
However, I'm surprised that Citizen Khan is screened!
Don't forget Herr Lipp, from the League of Gentlemen.
The UKIP odds in Stocksbridge & Penistone are worth looking at.
I don't think I would fancy being the right honourable er..member for that constituency.
I once read an article by a local chap from the second town complaining about the problems of spelling out the town name when making orders over the telephone - almost always had the phone put down on him after 5 letters.
I can remember when I was a teenager my parents when looking at houses for a house move in South London found a really nice house that basically met all their criteria. Unfortunately it was in a street called "Penistone Road". No offer was made.
I've often thought that the name can't do anything for house price values there...
In Radlett, there's Faggots Close.
My favourite place in London is the narrow Milkmaid's Passage.
I used to smirk every time I walked past it (which was quite often, on the way from work on Piccadilly to the Buckingham Arms).
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
Is "Scouting" working class?
It's my understanding that it was originally founded by Baden-Powell to implement British Christian values in the broader population that wasn't publicly educated.
I think Ukippers' reaction to insults stems from two things.
Disbelief that they as voters are being insulted by a party that wants their votes. Supposedly. It's a bit like walking into a shop and being racially insulted, but the shopkeeper still expects to receive your money.
As pointed out, the Cameroons are very PC about groups that would never vote for them, but outstandingly rude to those who would. The sheer double standard infuriates Ukippers. The example that sticks in my mind is the hoo-ha over revenge porn, but when a young female Ukipper is the victim there was silence from the normally vocal sisterhood.
Not only that but after a while having the same half a dozen mind-numbingly tedious unintelligent smears repeated over and over again with little or no variety or wit involved does rather get wearisome.
Oh, I dunno.
As a matter of interest, were large vacuum cleaners banned by the EU to save energy and prevent global warming, or was it to stop Ukippers hurting themselves?
For the removal of any doubt, I have an upright vacuum cleaner.
SLAB leader betting has Murphy 4-11,Findlay 11-4 Boyak 8-10-1.WH has withdrawn the market,After the 16-1 Findlay and Evens Murphy I'm not surprised they've cut their losses.Unison's support for Findlay is significant.
Mr. Llama, I am indeed still lurking around, not unlike an enormo-haddock awaiting unsuspecting prey.
Scanned the article. Lots of words to describe a basic injustice: the cash isn't shared fairly. Impossible to argue against that. Ferrari get more for 'historical' reasons. The same nonsense happens with circuits. Tedious procession Monaco pays no fee, fantastic Spa is at risk of leaving the calendar because of the fees.
A little unfair to take the comment "moany farts" out of context.
It's clear a (not very good) riff on Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Nigel Farage's Moany Farts Club Band)
Why? It makes it no less abusive? it doesn't even have the saving grace of being witty as you point out its not very good (actually its piss poor). But there again you Tories always were the Blue Meanies........
I would put it in the category of not worth getting worked up about.
You guys really do seem to have thin skins.
It's the real oddity of kippers. They detest political correctness. Yet when anyone describes them in terms they regard as disparaging, they squeal like stuck pigs.
"Terms they regard as disparaging."
Actually, we only react angrily to the sort of slurs that are used to shut down debate ("bigots", "racists", "anti-Semites", "Nazi"s etc). If we're described in reasonable criticism, we'll disagree, but calmly.
The UKIP odds in Stocksbridge & Penistone are worth looking at.
I don't think I would fancy being the right honourable er..member for that constituency.
I once read an article by a local chap from the second town complaining about the problems of spelling out the town name when making orders over the telephone - almost always had the phone put down on him after 5 letters.
I can remember when I was a teenager my parents when looking at houses for a house move in South London found a really nice house that basically met all their criteria. Unfortunately it was in a street called "Penistone Road". No offer was made.
I've often thought that the name can't do anything for house price values there...
In Radlett, there's Faggots Close.
My favourite place in London is the narrow Milkmaid's Passage.
I used to smirk every time I walked past it (which was quite often, on the way from work on Piccadilly to the Buckingham Arms).
Isn't that one of the anagrams that the Fawlty Towers hotel sign got changed to ?
It is still one of the delightful mysteries of seventies telly - how, in an age when you couldn't say anything remotely rude, let alone sweary, they got away with Flowery Twats.....
Possibly for the same reason the Goon show got away with having a character, who from memory appeared in numerous episodes, called Hugh Jampton. For that matter how did Kenneth Horn and his team get away with the Julian and Sandy sketches*? ISIRTA also regularly took the piss out of the BBC censorship.
Spike Milligan once put forward the theory that those in authority in the BBC, being nice chaps, just didn't have a clue. I think it more likely that, as long as the breaches in the rules, were not blatant the BBC were happy for them to go ahead.
*I am not sure the BBC would allow Julian and Sandy on air in these more enlightened times.
Round the Horn(e) was SO full of innuendo. Who, of our generation, can forget Rambling Sid Rumpole? Let alone, as previously quoted, Julian and Sandy!
However, I'm surprised that Citizen Khan is screened!
Don't forget Herr Lipp, from the League of Gentlemen.
Or many of the lines in "allo allo"
Excellent though Allo Allo was in that fine tradition, it could never top this:
Ed Miliband has been given a ticking-off by police after being snapped giving change to a woman sitting on a Manchester street - because begging is against the law.
I think Ukippers' reaction to insults stems from two things.
Disbelief that they as voters are being insulted by a party that wants their votes. Supposedly. It's a bit like walking into a shop and being racially insulted, but the shopkeeper still expects to receive your money.
As pointed out, the Cameroons are very PC about groups that would never vote for them, but outstandingly rude to those who would. The sheer double standard infuriates Ukippers. The example that sticks in my mind is the hoo-ha over revenge porn, but when a young female Ukipper is the victim there was silence from the normally vocal sisterhood.
Not only that but after a while having the same half a dozen mind-numbingly tedious unintelligent smears repeated over and over again with little or no variety or wit involved does rather get wearisome.
Oh, I dunno.
As a matter of interest, were large vacuum cleaners banned by the EU to save energy and prevent global warming, or was it to stop Ukippers hurting themselves?
For the removal of any doubt, I have an upright vacuum cleaner.
Oh don't be silly it was to stop Tories from getting a cheap thrill (all that sucking dontcha know) as punishment for promising a referendum.
Anyway I suspect most Kippers being sensible sorts buy Dyson........
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
Is "Scouting" working class?
I think it is one of the organisations, like the Freemasons, that is essentially classless and where one can find the sons of the very wealthy scouting alongside the sons of manual labourers without any friction or snobbery. That was certainly my experience as a child and much more recently as a father. The cadet forces are another set of organisations where one can find the same phenomena.
I'm going to Troll so apologies in advance but I want this off my chest.
It is not unprecedented through European political history and current European politics for a new party to become popular by combining Nationalism, blaming most things going wrong in the country as a result of actions taken by organisations or peoples overseas and.or as a result of particular minorities within the host country itself.
That is perhaps why UKIP is the most disliked party whilst also having a very significant and motivated group of supporters too. It works and has always worked but it's certainly nothing new in the history of politics.
Now feel free to assault the wet pro-european tory stance I favour!!
Demonizing your political opponents is nothing new either.
Indeed but what there is wrong in what I've said?
UKIP are nazis?
Don't be silly. They're not nazis.
English Poujadists, really, nothing more complicated than that.
The idea that UKIP are anti-urban or anti-industrialization is nonsense. Some of their biggest support comes from old mining and manufacturing towns. Neither are they anti-parliamentarism, given they want to defend parliament from the encroachment of the authoritarian EU.
The poujadist accusation is just another thinly disguised effort to link them to things like anti-Semitism. It's pathetic.
Poujadism was really a revolt against rapid change. Urbanisation and industrialisation was the themes that it took in France at the time.
There was no attempt to link it to anti-Semitism - you made that one up.
You may not believe it, but I respect UKIP voters while despairing of their leadership (who I regard as self-regarding chancers who would disastrous for the country).
The Telegraphs obit of Poujade makes it clear he held anti-Semitic views.
Very likely.
But there is much more to Poujadism than anti-Semitism.
Similarly there are individuals in UKIP (as there are in all parties) with unpleasant views. But UKIP is not an anti-Semitic party as a whole.
A little unfair to take the comment "moany farts" out of context.
It's clear a (not very good) riff on Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Nigel Farage's Moany Farts Club Band)
Why? It makes it no less abusive? it doesn't even have the saving grace of being witty as you point out its not very good (actually its piss poor). But there again you Tories always were the Blue Meanies........
I would put it in the category of not worth getting worked up about.
You guys really do seem to have thin skins.
It's the real oddity of kippers. They detest political correctness. Yet when anyone describes them in terms they regard as disparaging, they squeal like stuck pigs.
"Terms they regard as disparaging."
Actually, we only react angrily to the sort of slurs that are used to shut down debate ("bigots", "racists", "anti-Semites", "Nazi"s etc). If we're described in reasonable criticism, we'll disagree, but calmly.
I didn't mean it was an attempt by you personally to link it to anti-Semitism, but I think the broader push of that comparison is trying to imply that link. If you've studied French political history from this period, you would know it's a defining aspect of the movement.
If the comparison is as vague as "movements that have emerged in opposition to social change" then you've described half the political movements in history, from the Bolsheviks to the Orange Order.
Nah it was more the lower middle classes and the skilled working classes protesting against the social and economic changes that were undermining their standard of living. That's pretty similar to UKIP.
Anti-semitism is a much stronger theme in France, so it was natural it it became bound into Poujadism
Missed the start and I've got too much to do to watch now, but there's a programme on BBC2 about William Marshall, a 13th century knight (someone here tipped me off about a book recalling his exploits, which remains on my to-buy list).
The UKIP odds in Stocksbridge & Penistone are worth looking at.
I don't think I would fancy being the right honourable er..member for that constituency.
I once read an article by a local chap from the second town complaining about the problems of spelling out the town name when making orders over the telephone - almost always had the phone put down on him after 5 letters.
I can remember when I was a teenager my parents when looking at houses for a house move in South London found a really nice house that basically met all their criteria. Unfortunately it was in a street called "Penistone Road". No offer was made.
I've often thought that the name can't do anything for house price values there...
In Radlett, there's Faggots Close.
My favourite place in London is the narrow Milkmaid's Passage.
Grape Street had a different name pre-19th century.
Our ancestors were far blunter than we are.
Judy's Passage in Eton sounds innocent. Unless you appreciate what a "judy" is.
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
Fascinating. I am not sure you necessarily have a real handle on working class culture if you believe that lads mags and scouting are integral to it. I think you may also not realise who set up and ran the working mens' clubs - especially as you miss out the trade unions from your list.
I see no evidence of Labour holding self-improvement in contempt, or tabloids (as opposed to Tory tabloids), or the monarchy, or affection for the armed forces, or crude jokes for that matter. That said, the working class is not a homogenous group of cap-doffing salts of the earth who know their betters and do things that Socrates approves of.
Dr. Spyn, given Greater Manchester Police's recent media coverage, being attacked by them may count as a plus for Miliband.
Have a look at the photo stream - shades of Gordon Brown at Little Heathrow in Afghanistan. Ed's PR team are just so poor, who believes that he is a regular bus user? Is there a Labour knife Ed campaign?
I'm going to Troll so apologies in advance but I want this off my chest.
It is not unprecedented through European political history and current European politics for a new party to become popular by combining Nationalism, blaming most things going wrong in the country as a result of actions taken by organisations or peoples overseas and.or as a result of particular minorities within the host country itself.
That is perhaps why UKIP is the most disliked party whilst also having a very significant and motivated group of supporters too. It works and has always worked but it's certainly nothing new in the history of politics.
Now feel free to assault the wet pro-european tory stance I favour!!
Demonizing your political opponents is nothing new either.
Indeed but what there is wrong in what I've said?
UKIP are nazis?
Don't be silly. They're not nazis.
English Poujadists, really, nothing more complicated than that.
The idea that UKIP are anti-urban or anti-industrialization is nonsense. Some of their biggest support comes from old mining and manufacturing towns. Neither are they anti-parliamentarism, given they want to defend parliament from the encroachment of the authoritarian EU.
The poujadist accusation is just another thinly disguised effort to link them to things like anti-Semitism. It's pathetic.
Poujadism was really a revolt against rapid change. Urbanisation and industrialisation was the themes that it took in France at the time.
There was no attempt to link it to anti-Semitism - you made that one up.
You may not believe it, but I respect UKIP voters while despairing of their leadership (who I regard as self-regarding chancers who would disastrous for the country).
The Telegraphs obit of Poujade makes it clear he held anti-Semitic views.
Very likely.
But there is much more to Poujadism than anti-Semitism.
Similarly there are individuals in UKIP (as there are in all parties) with unpleasant views. But UKIP is not an anti-Semitic party as a whole.
You are right... the Tory party, as a whole, is not anti semitic
The only thing that has annoyed me about political correctness lately is that the Polish milkmaids didn't win the Eurovision song contest. OK, I know the contest isn't for straights, but they were very good.
The UKIP odds in Stocksbridge & Penistone are worth looking at.
I don't think I would fancy being the right honourable er..member for that constituency.
I once read an article by a local chap from the second town complaining about the problems of spelling out the town name when making orders over the telephone - almost always had the phone put down on him after 5 letters.
I can remember when I was a teenager my parents when looking at houses for a house move in South London found a really nice house that basically met all their criteria. Unfortunately it was in a street called "Penistone Road". No offer was made.
I've often thought that the name can't do anything for house price values there...
In Radlett, there's Faggots Close.
My favourite place in London is the narrow Milkmaid's Passage.
I used to know it very well - my father's office was just off Pall Mall, used to cut through it from Green park. (at least I think it's the same place)
Isn't that one of the anagrams that the Fawlty Towers hotel sign got changed to ?
It is still one of the delightful mysteries of seventies telly - how, in an age when you couldn't say anything remotely rude, let alone sweary, they got away with Flowery Twats.....
The censors probably didn't know what the word meant.
Back in the Sixties, Kenneth Williams got away with Round the Horne which is absolutely filthy.
The camp dialogues between Williams and Hugh Paddick were hilarious but so blue they can only have got through because the authorities simply didn't understand them.
'Bona, bona!'
Timeless brilliance.
My mum is always making the same point. She used to listen to it in the 60s as a teenager. No-one realised how rude it was at the time, as you say.
Oh I think the habituees of Old Compton Street knew perfectly well how rude it was, but fortunately nobody at Broadcasting House.
Bona Law.
We've got a criminal practice that takes up most of our time.
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
You're creating a straw man here. You seem to see the WWC as essentially the Sun (with the odd exception of scouting). It's a lot more diverse than that, which is probably why the Sun's readership has declined so sharply, and the Labour Party is too. You get a few snooty types in all parties, but it's not general.
Missed the start and I've got too much to do to watch now, but there's a programme on BBC2 about William Marshall, a 13th century knight (someone here tipped me off about a book recalling his exploits, which remains on my to-buy list).
William Marshall was the Peter Mandelson and William Cecil of the 13th century. An amazing manipulator of both king and country. Didn't get on terribly well with John.
Folks, respect milkmaids! It was their immunity to small pox from having contracted the much less virulent cow pox, that gave Edward Jenner the idea to inoculate people with pus from their sores. This may have been the first inoculation as we know the process, and has saved countless lives. I am old enough to remember getting an inoculation scratched on my shoulder.
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
You're creating a straw man here. You seem to see the WWC as essentially the Sun (with the odd exception of scouting). It's a lot more diverse than that, which is probably why the Sun's readership has declined so sharply, and the Labour Party is too. You get a few snooty types in all parties, but it's not general.
I don't think he was trying to create a strawman, merely to respond to another poster's question with, presumably, his honest view. Mind you he was wasting his time because there is a poster who whenever the idea of culture comes up, whether British, English, WWC, whatever, will always post the "Oh yeah and what does that culture consist off?" question; then regardless of what is posted in reply will say, in effect, no you are wrong and by inference an idiot and/or racist. Said poster has been playing same game for years, I wonder that people still fall for it.
Still I am pleased to see that you don't agree with pigeon holing people, NIck. Can we look forward to some articles from you in Labour leaning journals saying that breaking up the electorate in homogeneous blocks (i.e. identity politics) is wrong?
Does anyone think the threats of Cameron having a leadership challenge mounted if tories lose Rochester are serious or just hot air?
I think it could happen. It might well be really stupid, but apart from a brief period of quiescence earlier this year, the Tory rebels have not proven themselves to be the types who do not cause trouble even when it appears there is no upside to doing so, and with Cameron categorically unable to control his party and the probability of more jumping ship - there are plenty who clearly want to, inasmuch as many do not appear to mind losing to UKIP - could those lot possibly contain themselves, even if they should? Unlikely, I'd say. The only thing that might prevent the Tories from being the second largest party would, funnily enough, be a Labour wipeout in Scotland, and with the result in essence out of Tory hands, they are free to try anything.
Congratulations on your prediction i think i was 7th and overestimated UKIP by quite a bit.
Missed the start and I've got too much to do to watch now, but there's a programme on BBC2 about William Marshall, a 13th century knight (someone here tipped me off about a book recalling his exploits, which remains on my to-buy list).
William Marshall was the Peter Mandelson and William Cecil of the 13th century. An amazing manipulator of both king and country. Didn't get on terribly well with John.
William Marshall was outstanding. He rode into his final battle at the age of 73.
Missed the start and I've got too much to do to watch now, but there's a programme on BBC2 about William Marshall, a 13th century knight (someone here tipped me off about a book recalling his exploits, which remains on my to-buy list).
William Marshall was the Peter Mandelson and William Cecil of the 13th century. An amazing manipulator of both king and country. Didn't get on terribly well with John.
That's a bit of an understatement. William Marshall was a first rate soldier and thug. It was his military prowess particularly in tournaments (500 wins reputedly) that made him his money and his name that gave him entry to the top table.
Not sure that I understand your comments about King John. They had a tiff, but Marhsall stayed on the King's side during the war that led to the signing of Magna Carta.
The only thing that has annoyed me about political correctness lately is that the Polish milkmaids didn't win the Eurovision song contest. OK, I know the contest isn't for straights, but they were very good.
It was worse than that.
Poles in the UK voted in droves for it (unsurprisingly), but that was overruled by the panel of judges.
Amazing how EU migration's effects on the UK are overridden roughshod when it affects the liberal elite's sensibilities/interests.
Missed the start and I've got too much to do to watch now, but there's a programme on BBC2 about William Marshall, a 13th century knight (someone here tipped me off about a book recalling his exploits, which remains on my to-buy list).
Mr Dancer, I just watched it, it was was very interesting.
I can't fathom why people are actually having a discussion leading on from Scrapheap's paltry old chestnut of an attack. It was self-admitted trolling and as such should have been treated with the indifference it deserved.
As for trying to 'explain' the 'phenomenon' of UKIP -surely what we should really be trying to do is explain the phenomenon of anyone actively supporting one of the legacy parties. Masochism? Stockholm syndrome? Bullied at school and now must remain part of the herd at all costs?
Let's break it down for the 55th time. The UK is currently part of an international club we elected to join in the 1970's, on the basis that it was necessary for our prosperity to be within a tariff barrier. It failed (surprise surprise) to revive the economy, which had actually been suffering from a nasty dose of socialism. Nevertheless, we have remained part of the club, which charges exorbitant membership fees, charges more if we over-perform relating to other members, and (get this) makes edicts which we must obey, and which have been tested in law as being superior to our own. In recent years, this sorry state of affairs has been worsened by the opening of our borders to the whole of Europe, stretching services to breaking point. Far from exercising our right to leave this organisation, or even by firm negotiation lessening its worst excesses, all the main parties advocate a process of further and further engagement until the point of no return. Explain supporting that please!
There is ONE party that advocates leaving this woeful organisation. If you dislike people who drink real ale and smoke a pipe, and whom you suspect once owned a golliwog, that's fine, set up your own 'nice' party that advocates EU withdrawal. But please don't pretend to be mystified as to why someone else might actually give a damn about the future of the country.
Mr. Llama, we're close to William Marshall than he was to Hannibal. Or even Caesar.
On a serious note, things do feel modern when England and France are around.
France as a unified nation state was not around at the time of William Marshall. It took another few centuries before France could call itself a nation state (and was still struggling with the concept in Napoleonic times).
The UKIP odds in Stocksbridge & Penistone are worth looking at.
I don't think I would fancy being the right honourable er..member for that constituency.
I once read an article by a local chap from the second town complaining about the problems of spelling out the town name when making orders over the telephone - almost always had the phone put down on him after 5 letters.
Was he Mr Peter Ian Straker?
youtube.com/watch?v=wcSg6dAZ03w
No idea sorry! (Did you see the reply to your tiger comment? That academic legal article on Elinor Glyn was most instructive.)
Cheers, Dr. Prasannan. I shall endeavour to remember to watch it on iPlayer, even though modern history isn't usually my cup of tea.
I know you are only doing it to tease but....
Modern History? William Marshall died nearly 800 years ago!
William Marshall was 3x great grandfather of Robert the Bruce making him a 27x great grandfather of yours truly and presumably also ancestor of Charles, Jack W, NPXMP and a number of other PBers.
Mr. Llama, ah, I'm always a bit fuzzy on when Gascony, the Bretons et al. had their distinctiveness hammered out of them and were conjoined to France.
Mr. Easterross, I don't watch Who Do You Think You Are? usually but the one with Matthew Pinsent was quite good. It ended with a fantastic ancient scroll which completed his family tree by having him directly descended from Jesus [as it were, because he was the descendent of royals, who all claimed divine right and lineage to a greater or lesser degree].
@Socrates - can you share with us what white working class culture is in England and what bits of it Labour hates?
They hold in contempt virtually all of it. The working men's clubs, the affection towards our our armed forces, the smoking and drinking pub culture, the crude jokes, the monarchism, the flag-waving patriotism, scouting, the lad's magazines, the desire to move up in the world, the tabloid-reading, etc etc.
You're creating a straw man here. You seem to see the WWC as essentially the Sun (with the odd exception of scouting). It's a lot more diverse than that, which is probably why the Sun's readership has declined so sharply, and the Labour Party is too. You get a few snooty types in all parties, but it's not general.
I don't think he was trying to create a strawman, merely to respond to another poster's question with, presumably, his honest view. Mind you he was wasting his time because there is a poster who whenever the idea of culture comes up, whether British, English, WWC, whatever, will always post the "Oh yeah and what does that culture consist off?" question; then regardless of what is posted in reply will say, in effect, no you are wrong and by inference an idiot and/or racist. Said poster has been playing same game for years, I wonder that people still fall for it.
Still I am pleased to see that you don't agree with pigeon holing people, NIck. Can we look forward to some articles from you in Labour leaning journals saying that breaking up the electorate in homogeneous blocks (i.e. identity politics) is wrong?
Presumably you are referring to me. Socrates claimed Labour hates English white working class culture. It's not unreasonable to ask what Socrates thinks that is. I grew up in an English working class family and I don't recognise much of what he says. There was the Labour club and various union clubs, but lads mags did not exist and would have been hated by many. I did not know anyone in the scouts.
I don't think Socrates is stupid or racist, and I fail to see how that can be read into anything I wrote. However, it does seem he has a very partial, male/centric, one dimensional view of the working class. Mine would take in a love of sport, musical creativity, trade unionism, community solidarity, intense piss-taking, self-improvement, an acceptance and use of of low level violence in the home and after closing time, distrust of the police, and a healthy disrespect for authority. But I have a partial view too. Culture is a complicated thing. And no-one has ownership of it.
MD Also watched it, he was an interesting figure, also had some shots of King John's tomb in Worcester Cathedral I recently visited and Lincoln Cathedral which looks worth a visit too
Mr. HYUFD, yes, I'd heard Lincoln's a rather magnificent cathedral. Don't travel much, but I did enjoy seeing York Minster again a few years ago. Staggeringly impressive building, and there's a nice little statue of Constantine the Great outside.
Mr. Llama, ah, I'm always a bit fuzzy on when Gascony, the Bretons et al. had their distinctiveness hammered out of them and were conjoined to France.
Mr. Easterross, I don't watch Who Do You Think You Are? usually but the one with Matthew Pinsent was quite good. It ended with a fantastic ancient scroll which completed his family tree by having him directly descended from Jesus [as it were, because he was the descendent of royals, who all claimed divine right and lineage to a greater or lesser degree].
Indeed Mr Dancer. The most interesting in terms of lineage of the WDYTYA have been Matthew Pinsent (family money built on opium), Celia Imrie (ancestor Lord Russell beheaded on Tower Hill), Alexander Armstrong (ultra grand Anglo-Irish) and Boris Johnson (descendant of the German Royal's society artiste and of course Ottoman government minister).
Mr. HYUFD, yes, I'd heard Lincoln's a rather magnificent cathedral. Don't travel much, but I did enjoy seeing York Minster again a few years ago. Staggeringly impressive building, and there's a nice little statue of Constantine the Great outside.
If you visit Lincoln Cathedral, you have to see the Wren Library - "the most beautiful room in Britain". I was lucky enough as a kid to get in with a small group - it is exquisite, and the collection of books truly astonishing.
Once upon a time that would have been nothing to be ashamed of. Indeed, until at least the mid 1970s the Crest of Hong Kong included three opium barrels. A fact that was the constant source of amusement of members of the Royal Hong Kong Police as the crest was included, barrels and all, in their cap badge.
Don't know if it's been mentioned on the site today as I've been away but Christina Rees has been selected to succeed Peter Hain as Labour's candidate for Neath. Very much a local person from what I can tell, though she happens to be the ex wife of former cabinet minister and Welsh secretary Ron Davies.
I wonder if we could have a few months of the big two parties tanking in the low thirties before recovering votes from the smaller parties as the election approaches.
So I have to decide, do I want to be ultimate ruler of Sheffield or Manchester.
George Osborne to announce 'home rule' for Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds
George Osborne and Nick Clegg have agreed to give “London style” self-rule to Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester, with details expected to be announced in the Autumn Statement next month
Didn't Clegg wear one as well? I guess it's not even newsworthy to include him in the attack as well, in picture and headline form at least, he gets a mention.
And in fairness, I thought pretty much all our clothing was made in sweatshops in any case, not even including other products.
The UKIP odds in Stocksbridge & Penistone are worth looking at.
I don't think I would fancy being the right honourable er..member for that constituency.
I once read an article by a local chap from the second town complaining about the problems of spelling out the town name when making orders over the telephone - almost always had the phone put down on him after 5 letters.
I can remember when I was a teenager my parents when looking at houses for a house move in South London found a really nice house that basically met all their criteria. Unfortunately it was in a street called "Penistone Road". No offer was made.
I've often thought that the name can't do anything for house price values there...
In Radlett, there's Faggots Close.
My favourite place in London is the narrow Milkmaid's Passage.
Grape Street had a different name pre-19th century.
Our ancestors were far blunter than we are.
Apparently on old maps most towns had a Gropecunt Lane.
So I have to decide, do I want to be ultimate ruler of Sheffield or Manchester.
George Osborne to announce 'home rule' for Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds
George Osborne and Nick Clegg have agreed to give “London style” self-rule to Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester, with details expected to be announced in the Autumn Statement next month
Will Osborne learn any lessons from the behaviour of the elected Mayor in Bristol, who has changed the city constitution to limit if not avoid questions from the public at council meetings. He is also keen to reduce the number of councillors, and alter the electoral cycle, at present 1/3 of councillors are up for re-election every year.
If you listed all the seats in Kent according to UKIP potential, I think Rochester would be pretty much in the middle. Which suggests the party could win up to 10 seats in the county in optimal conditions.
Didn't Clegg wear one as well? I guess it's not even newsworthy to include him in the attack as well, in picture and headline form at least, he gets a mention.
And in fairness, I thought pretty much all our clothing was made in sweatshops in any case, not even including other products.
Tis such sport, to see the engineer hoist with his own petard.
Comments
Oh the Mappa Mundi has been a rich source for cartoonists for many, many years. That's why it doesn't offend the plagiarism code.
I thought Marf's was an excellent continuation of that tradition.
'Bona, bona!'
Timeless brilliance.
My mum is always making the same point. She used to listen to it in the 60s as a teenager. No-one realised how rude it was at the time, as you say.
F1: bit sleepy. One or two betting ideas. May be up tonight, might put the post up tomorrow, depends how the markets go. Race start is 8pm, so there's tons of time.
I'm probably being unfair on most Conservative supporters. After all, there were screams of rage from Labour when their LD junior helpers decided to form a coalition with the Tories.
How dare they?
But poor old Ed is now copping it from all and sundry.
Oh I think the habituees of Old Compton Street knew perfectly well how rude it was, but fortunately nobody at Broadcasting House.
Or many of the lines in "allo allo"
As a matter of interest, were large vacuum cleaners banned by the EU to save energy and prevent global warming, or was it to stop Ukippers hurting themselves?
For the removal of any doubt, I have an upright vacuum cleaner.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/11203136/Formula-Ones-vast-costs-are-driving-small-teams-to-ruin.html
Scanned the article. Lots of words to describe a basic injustice: the cash isn't shared fairly. Impossible to argue against that. Ferrari get more for 'historical' reasons. The same nonsense happens with circuits. Tedious procession Monaco pays no fee, fantastic Spa is at risk of leaving the calendar because of the fees.
"Terms they regard as disparaging."
Actually, we only react angrily to the sort of slurs that are used to shut down debate ("bigots", "racists", "anti-Semites", "Nazi"s etc). If we're described in reasonable criticism, we'll disagree, but calmly.
Berocca Log Rolling Lumberjacks advert UNSEEN foo…: http://youtu.be/Bm_OfPVuW-E
Excellent though Allo Allo was in that fine tradition, it could never top this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZL4rTEWU5c
That link has some fabulous photos...I don't think the editor likes him very much!
I love the one of him getting off the bus (no 2 in the list)
Anyway I suspect most Kippers being sensible sorts buy Dyson........
But there is much more to Poujadism than anti-Semitism.
Similarly there are individuals in UKIP (as there are in all parties) with unpleasant views. But UKIP is not an anti-Semitic party as a whole.
Police give Ed Miliband a ticking off for not donating to registered charity after handing change to beggar.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/police-give-ed-miliband-ticking-8031545#.VFUlCiud5dd.twitter
The lawyers might know if GMP have gone over the top, but its another crap headline for Edward.
Actually, we only react angrily to the sort of slurs that are used to shut down debate ("bigots", "racists", "anti-Semites", "Nazi"s etc). If we're described in reasonable criticism, we'll disagree, but calmly.
NO WE FUCKING WONT
Anti-semitism is a much stronger theme in France, so it was natural it it became bound into Poujadism
I see no evidence of Labour holding self-improvement in contempt, or tabloids (as opposed to Tory tabloids), or the monarchy, or affection for the armed forces, or crude jokes for that matter. That said, the working class is not a homogenous group of cap-doffing salts of the earth who know their betters and do things that Socrates approves of.
The only thing that has annoyed me about political correctness lately is that the Polish milkmaids didn't win the Eurovision song contest. OK, I know the contest isn't for straights, but they were very good.
Bona Law.
We've got a criminal practice that takes up most of our time.
Thanks to those who have help me find the winner of our S Yorks PCC elections competition.
The winner looks like being Kle4 who predicted a 19.2% LAB winning margin
The second was Second sirnorfolkpassmore
Third skybluepastie
Congrats to all
It was their immunity to small pox from having contracted the much less virulent cow pox, that gave Edward Jenner the idea to inoculate people with pus from their sores. This may have been the first inoculation as we know the process, and has saved countless lives. I am old enough to remember getting an inoculation scratched on my shoulder.
Still I am pleased to see that you don't agree with pigeon holing people, NIck. Can we look forward to some articles from you in Labour leaning journals saying that breaking up the electorate in homogeneous blocks (i.e. identity politics) is wrong?
I wonder who was worst?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRupUOwnhGQ
For the younger PBers to help them understand part of the thread, an episode of Round The Horne. NB laugher at 1:25 re double entendres.
Not sure that I understand your comments about King John. They had a tiff, but Marhsall stayed on the King's side during the war that led to the signing of Magna Carta.
Poles in the UK voted in droves for it (unsurprisingly), but that was overruled by the panel of judges.
Amazing how EU migration's effects on the UK are overridden roughshod when it affects the liberal elite's sensibilities/interests.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/culturehousedaily/2014/05/sorry-britain-didnt-vote-for-the-austrian-bearded-lady-2/
As for trying to 'explain' the 'phenomenon' of UKIP -surely what we should really be trying to do is explain the phenomenon of anyone actively supporting one of the legacy parties. Masochism? Stockholm syndrome? Bullied at school and now must remain part of the herd at all costs?
Let's break it down for the 55th time. The UK is currently part of an international club we elected to join in the 1970's, on the basis that it was necessary for our prosperity to be within a tariff barrier. It failed (surprise surprise) to revive the economy, which had actually been suffering from a nasty dose of socialism. Nevertheless, we have remained part of the club, which charges exorbitant membership fees, charges more if we over-perform relating to other members, and (get this) makes edicts which we must obey, and which have been tested in law as being superior to our own. In recent years, this sorry state of affairs has been worsened by the opening of our borders to the whole of Europe, stretching services to breaking point. Far from exercising our right to leave this organisation, or even by firm negotiation lessening its worst excesses, all the main parties advocate a process of further and further engagement until the point of no return. Explain supporting that please!
There is ONE party that advocates leaving this woeful organisation. If you dislike people who drink real ale and smoke a pipe, and whom you suspect once owned a golliwog, that's fine, set up your own 'nice' party that advocates EU withdrawal. But please don't pretend to be mystified as to why someone else might actually give a damn about the future of the country.
Modern History? William Marshall died nearly 800 years ago!
On a serious note, things do feel modern when England and France are around.
Mr. Easterross, I don't watch Who Do You Think You Are? usually but the one with Matthew Pinsent was quite good. It ended with a fantastic ancient scroll which completed his family tree by having him directly descended from Jesus [as it were, because he was the descendent of royals, who all claimed divine right and lineage to a greater or lesser degree].
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-bans-halal-and-kosher-slaughter-as-minister-says-animal-rights-come-before-religion-9135580.html
Nice to see the Danes getting a grip on animal rights at long last. Will any UK party have the courage to follow suit?
I don't think Socrates is stupid or racist, and I fail to see how that can be read into anything I wrote. However, it does seem he has a very partial, male/centric, one dimensional view of the working class. Mine would take in a love of sport, musical creativity, trade unionism, community solidarity, intense piss-taking, self-improvement, an acceptance and use of of low level violence in the home and after closing time, distrust of the police, and a healthy disrespect for authority. But I have a partial view too. Culture is a complicated thing. And no-one has ownership of it.
They've cast [redacted] as a [redacted]
Once upon a time that would have been nothing to be ashamed of. Indeed, until at least the mid 1970s the Crest of Hong Kong included three opium barrels. A fact that was the constant source of amusement of members of the Royal Hong Kong Police as the crest was included, barrels and all, in their cap badge.
National Opinion Poll (YouGov):
LAB - 32% (=)
CON - 31% (-2)
UKIP - 18% (+3)
LDEM - 7% (=)
GRN - 6% (-1)
Marquee Mark Will ensure I visit the 'Wren Library' too
Giving 2 p to a beggar is worse than giving nothing.
George Osborne to announce 'home rule' for Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds
George Osborne and Nick Clegg have agreed to give “London style” self-rule to Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester, with details expected to be announced in the Autumn Statement next month
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11203407/George-Osborne-to-announce-home-rule-for-Manchester-Sheffield-and-Leeds.html
Thanks George & Nick for helping me to my ultimate destiny.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1Yt-Q3CQAA29XP.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1YuYlNCYAA8qGA.jpg
And in fairness, I thought pretty much all our clothing was made in sweatshops in any case, not even including other products.
There's a Dead Man's Hole Lane.
Really there is.
But this is my favourite street name in London.
I've had so much fun here, in this tight Back Passage
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/32/37857281_d80cc0fd95.jpg
I don't have the numbers yet, when I do, I'll post them so we can see
David Jack @DJack_Journo
Ed Miliband's rating is his worst ever: 18% say he's doing well, 73% badly -55 net, below Clegg at -54, Cameron -14. SundayTimes/YouGov
ROFLMAO.