Very interesting reading the comments on the BBC website story about the devolution/EVEL debate. Terrible feedback for Labour.
Trouble is, no matter what people think about the injustice of the WLQ and EVEL, hardly anyone cares enough to influence how they vote.
Ed knows this, Labour know this. No matter about ignoring the injustice to the people of England when the Commons votes on it, he knows it has limited resonance on the doorstep, to the extent it has then he can, not unreasonably, say that the Tories are just trying to foist their own partisan solution onto a century old problem in a matter of months before a GE when he proposes a pointless talking shop next year with no false deadline.
All he has to do is sit back, let Farage hand him loads of Tory seats and help him retain his own, and coast into Downing St. If I was Ed, I'd pack the Shadow Cabinet off with me and go on leave for 6 months and return to take power on May 8th.
None of the established parties, then, can truly claim to have met the challenges the voters set them. The Conservatives have not properly shown their purpose to people who do not trust their motives; the Lib Dems have used what power they have to fruitless ends; Labour have complacently declined to tackle the fears people have about putting them back in charge
Incidentally I see that the location that the Tories have booked for their primary hustings in Rochester holds about 420 people. How does that compare with previous primaries?
You selling at 420? You're not a conservative anymore.
Incidentally I see that the location that the Tories have booked for their primary hustings in Rochester holds about 420 people. How does that compare with previous primaries?
You selling at 420? You're not a conservative anymore.
Incidentally I see that the location that the Tories have booked for their primary hustings in Rochester holds about 420 people. How does that compare with previous primaries?
You selling at 420? You're not a conservative anymore.
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. That's why it's best to get in the halfway house of English votes for English laws before an English Parliament can be created.
Incidentally I see that the location that the Tories have booked for their primary hustings in Rochester holds about 420 people. How does that compare with previous primaries?
You selling at 420? You're not a conservative anymore.
If you think about it, the logical outcome of Labour's policies is infact to ban immigration. Left wing teaching methods don't work, so they reduce examination levels to hide this lack of attainment. This dominoes until degrees themselves are worthless. The workplace, where a dedicated and better educated pole can beat you to a job, is really the last place where Labour can't fix the game for their useless progeny. British jobs for British workers would do that. Hardly surprising their supporters are deserting them in droves.
Immigrants wanting to draw the bridge up behind them is hardly a new thing. Look at the USA. IIRC not all Saxons were keen on further waves of immigrants either!
If you think about it, the logical outcome of Labour's policies is infact to ban immigration. Left wing teaching methods don't work, so they reduce examination levels to hide this lack of attainment. This dominoes until degrees themselves are worthless. The workplace, where a dedicated and better educated pole can beat you to a job, is really the last place where Labour can't fix the game for their useless progeny. British jobs for British workers would do that. Hardly surprising their supporters are deserting them in droves.
I agree to an extent.
The educated Pole does not speak as good English as us though.
Very interesting reading the comments on the BBC website story about the devolution/EVEL debate. Terrible feedback for Labour.
Trouble is, no matter what people think about the injustice of the WLQ and EVEL, hardly anyone cares enough to influence how they vote.
Ed knows this, Labour know this. No matter about ignoring the injustice to the people of England when the Commons votes on it, he knows it has limited resonance on the doorstep, to the extent it has then he can, not unreasonably, say that the Tories are just trying to foist their own partisan solution onto a century old problem in a matter of months before a GE when he proposes a pointless talking shop next year with no false deadline.
All he has to do is sit back, let Farage hand him loads of Tory seats and help him retain his own, and coast into Downing St. If I was Ed, I'd pack the Shadow Cabinet off with me and go on leave for 6 months and return to take power on May 8th.
And your evidence for this is? I would have thought that it would have a cumulative effect with other issues such as Immigration, the EU, Defence, Climate change and so forth where the very fact that Miliband is ignoring their concerns completely will ensure that if they are unable to decide between Labour and say UKIP that it may well tip the balance UKIP's way.
With many of these issues it is not so much the individual issue but the general impression of 'not being on their side, not being people like us and putting self and party interest before the nation, and disregarding someone's democratic deficit is in fact a pretty big red flag from that viewpoint. You'd have thought Labour would have learned. Labour lost three million voters in Tony Blair's first term *(when devolution was passed and the Euro was a hot topic) and it wasn't because of the economy which was doing fine and it wasn't because of the NHS (because Brown was throwing money at it).
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. .
You're right.
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
If you think about it, the logical outcome of Labour's policies is infact to ban immigration. Left wing teaching methods don't work, so they reduce examination levels to hide this lack of attainment. This dominoes until degrees themselves are worthless. The workplace, where a dedicated and better educated pole can beat you to a job, is really the last place where Labour can't fix the game for their useless progeny. British jobs for British workers would do that. Hardly surprising their supporters are deserting them in droves.
I agree to an extent.
The educated Pole does not speak as good English as us though.
Very interesting reading the comments on the BBC website story about the devolution/EVEL debate. Terrible feedback for Labour.
Trouble is, no matter what people think about the injustice of the WLQ and EVEL, hardly anyone cares enough to influence how they vote.
Ed knows this, Labour know this. No matter about ignoring the injustice to the people of England when the Commons votes on it, he knows it has limited resonance on the doorstep, to the extent it has then he can, not unreasonably, say that the Tories are just trying to foist their own partisan solution onto a century old problem in a matter of months before a GE when he proposes a pointless talking shop next year with no false deadline.
All he has to do is sit back, let Farage hand him loads of Tory seats and help him retain his own, and coast into Downing St. If I was Ed, I'd pack the Shadow Cabinet off with me and go on leave for 6 months and return to take power on May 8th.
Tim Montgomerie has eventually caught up with the significance of English Votes for English Laws, if his tweets today are to be believed:
"Tim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie · 3h3 hours ago English votes for Eng laws is a classic Crosby issue. It's not where public opinion is today that counts but where he knows he can take it.
Tim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie · 3h3 hours ago Re previous Tweet: Labour don't know what's coming at them.........."
This is in stark contrast with his reaction on the day, when he was doing his best to justify the Conservatives' tagline as the stupid party:
If you think about it, the logical outcome of Labour's policies is infact to ban immigration. Left wing teaching methods don't work, so they reduce examination levels to hide this lack of attainment. This dominoes until degrees themselves are worthless. The workplace, where a dedicated and better educated pole can beat you to a job, is really the last place where Labour can't fix the game for their useless progeny. British jobs for British workers would do that. Hardly surprising their supporters are deserting them in droves.
I agree to an extent.
The educated Pole does not speak as good English as us though.
Not always true!
If '83 relates to your age then you are being as naive as one would expect.
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. .
You're right.
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
Of course they have bigger things to worry about, but how they will vote will depend partly on the narrative that they believe in as to which politicians (if any) are "most on my side". These narratives are being constructed by the Yes parties in Scotland, and by the Tories on EVEL in England.
Labour are blundering about from trap to trap - successfully falling into all of them. They might still scrape largest party in May 2015, but unlikely to have much power over anything.
Very interesting reading the comments on the BBC website story about the devolution/EVEL debate. Terrible feedback for Labour.
Trouble is, no matter what people think about the injustice of the WLQ and EVEL, hardly anyone cares enough to influence how they vote.
Ed knows this, Labour know this. No matter about ignoring the injustice to the people of England when the Commons votes on it, he knows it has limited resonance on the doorstep, to the extent it has then he can, not unreasonably, say that the Tories are just trying to foist their own partisan solution onto a century old problem in a matter of months before a GE when he proposes a pointless talking shop next year with no false deadline.
All he has to do is sit back, let Farage hand him loads of Tory seats and help him retain his own, and coast into Downing St. If I was Ed, I'd pack the Shadow Cabinet off with me and go on leave for 6 months and return to take power on May 8th.
And your evidence for this is? I would have thought that it would have a cumulative effect with other issues such as Immigration, the EU, Defence, Climate change and so forth where the very fact that Miliband is ignoring their concerns completely will ensure that if they are unable to decide between Labour and say UKIP that it may well tip the balance UKIP's way.
With many of these issues it is not so much the individual issue but the general impression of 'not being on their side, not being people like us and putting self and party interest before the nation, and disregarding someone's democratic deficit is in fact a pretty big red flag from that viewpoint. You'd have thought Labour would have learned. Labour lost three million voters in Tony Blair's first term *(when devolution was passed and the Euro was a hot topic) and it wasn't because of the economy which was doing fine and it wasn't because of the NHS (because Brown was throwing money at it).
My impression is people actually don't know about it. They have an assumption that flagrant abuses of the system are just ironed out by 'someone'. I would imagine most people think something like EVFEL was put in place as a matter of course when Scotland devolved. If this is the case, we can't really know how exercised they will be by it.
It seems to me that resigning your seat and standing for a new party creates several problems for those who want to unseat you. The main one being attacking someone they so recently endorsed. It doesn't work the opposite way -defectors seem to be able to slate their former parties with abandon.
This is a really interesting wiki page of floor crossings (apols if posted already):
I count 4 resignings of the whip and re-standing under different colours in an immediate by-elections now, 3 successful (Carswell, Lady Sylvia Hermon, Dick Taverne), one not (Bruce Douglas-Mann). That's quite a good record now.
Very interesting reading the comments on the BBC website story about the devolution/EVEL debate. Terrible feedback for Labour.
Trouble is, no matter what people think about the injustice of the WLQ and EVEL, hardly anyone cares enough to influence how they vote.
Ed knows this, Labour know this. No matter about ignoring the injustice to the people of England when the Commons votes on it, he knows it has limited resonance on the doorstep, to the extent it has then he can, not unreasonably, say that the Tories are just trying to foist their own partisan solution onto a century old problem in a matter of months before a GE when he proposes a pointless talking shop next year with no false deadline.
All he has to do is sit back, let Farage hand him loads of Tory seats and help him retain his own, and coast into Downing St. If I was Ed, I'd pack the Shadow Cabinet off with me and go on leave for 6 months and return to take power on May 8th.
Tim Montgomerie has eventually caught up with the significance of English Votes for English Laws, if his tweets today are to be believed:
"Tim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie · 3h3 hours ago English votes for Eng laws is a classic Crosby issue. It's not where public opinion is today that counts but where he knows he can take it.
Tim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie · 3h3 hours ago Re previous Tweet: Labour don't know what's coming at them.........."
This is in stark contrast with his reaction on the day, when he was doing his best to justify the Conservatives' tagline as the stupid party:
Don't much like the complicated, bureaucratic English votes for English laws; English Parliament much cleaner, more potent way forward."
I don't think the two are in contrast. In terms of the Crosby issue, it's fairness to the English vs unfairness to the English. The debate between a parliament or EVfEL is within the first half of that. It's the classic case of Labour being in the worst position, the Tories being in a better position and UKIP being in the best position.
If you think about it, the logical outcome of Labour's policies is infact to ban immigration. Left wing teaching methods don't work, so they reduce examination levels to hide this lack of attainment. This dominoes until degrees themselves are worthless. The workplace, where a dedicated and better educated pole can beat you to a job, is really the last place where Labour can't fix the game for their useless progeny. British jobs for British workers would do that. Hardly surprising their supporters are deserting them in droves.
I agree to an extent.
The educated Pole does not speak as good English as us though.
Not always true!
If '83 relates to your age then you are being as naive as one would expect.
Don't know what that means. I was mildly jesting, but I would say a Pole with basic english but a high level of grammar etc., will once here, quickly overtake many British school leavers in literacy, if not in the spoken word. Not saying I'm pleased about it.
Very interesting reading the comments on the BBC website story about the devolution/EVEL debate. Terrible feedback for Labour.
Trouble is, no matter what people think about the injustice of the WLQ and EVEL, hardly anyone cares enough to influence how they vote.
Ed knows this, Labour know this. No matter about ignoring the injustice to the people of England when the Commons votes on it, he knows it has limited resonance on the doorstep, to the extent it has then he can, not unreasonably, say that the Tories are just trying to foist their own partisan solution onto a century old problem in a matter of months before a GE when he proposes a pointless talking shop next year with no false deadline.
All he has to do is sit back, let Farage hand him loads of Tory seats and help him retain his own, and coast into Downing St. If I was Ed, I'd pack the Shadow Cabinet off with me and go on leave for 6 months and return to take power on May 8th.
And your evidence for this is? I would have thought that it would have a cumulative effect with other issues such as Immigration, the EU, Defence, Climate change and so forth where the very fact that Miliband is ignoring their concerns completely will ensure that if they are unable to decide between Labour and say UKIP that it may well tip the balance UKIP's way.
With many of these issues it is not so much the individual issue but the general impression of 'not being on their side, not being people like us and putting self and party interest before the nation, and disregarding someone's democratic deficit is in fact a pretty big red flag from that viewpoint. You'd have thought Labour would have learned. Labour lost three million voters in Tony Blair's first term *(when devolution was passed and the Euro was a hot topic) and it wasn't because of the economy which was doing fine and it wasn't because of the NHS (because Brown was throwing money at it).
My impression is people actually don't know about it. They have an assumption that flagrant abuses of the system are just ironed out by 'someone'. I would imagine most people think something like EVFEL was put in place as a matter of course when Scotland devolved. If this is the case, we can't really know how exercised they will be by it.
Perhaps. Certainly it does take it to be in the news fairly regularly before it gets noticed again. Like most constitutional issues its rarely features in people's priorities but that said what polling there has been on it is relatively consistent with a large plurality/ majority favouring an English Parliament so clearly they have some recognition of the issue although the 'don't know' figures are quite large at times as well backing up your point I think:
I also think manofkent is completely accurate in terms of the cumulative effect of things. One issue on its own Labour can afford to ignore. When there's a bunch of things that add up to tell a narrative, Labour are on very dangerous ground. They can't ignore immigration, EU power grabs and Scottish votes for English laws all at once.
Having missed the debate so far and only seeing the headline stuff, am I an idiot for not understanding the arguments against EV4EL on the basis that it would create two classes of MP? Not saying there may not be good arguments against it, but on the assumption that the loudest argument put is the one which resonates and which is seen as most vital, that the loudest one I've heard so far makes no sense to me on initial reaction may be a problem I suppose.
Having missed the debate so far and only seeing the headline stuff, am I an idiot for not understanding the arguments against EV4EL on the basis that it would create two classes of MP? Not saying there may not be good arguments against it, but on the assumption that the loudest argument put is the one which resonates and which is seen as most vital, that the loudest one I've heard so far makes no sense to me on initial reaction may be a problem I suppose.
Yes, who cares about the MPs? It's a really weird argument, quite apart from being absurd because there already are two classes of MPs - those whose votes on these matters affect their constituents, and those whose votes affect only other MPs' constituents.
If you think about it, the logical outcome of Labour's policies is infact to ban immigration. Left wing teaching methods don't work, so they reduce examination levels to hide this lack of attainment. This dominoes until degrees themselves are worthless. The workplace, where a dedicated and better educated pole can beat you to a job, is really the last place where Labour can't fix the game for their useless progeny. British jobs for British workers would do that. Hardly surprising their supporters are deserting them in droves.
I agree to an extent.
The educated Pole does not speak as good English as us though.
Not always true!
If '83 relates to your age then you are being as naive as one would expect.
Don't know what that means. I was mildly jesting, but I would say a Pole with basic english but a high level of grammar etc., will once here, quickly overtake many British school leavers in literacy, if not in the spoken word. Not saying I'm pleased about it.
I note you are, as ever, being very precise.
If these educated Poles have read more than 5 English language fiction books I will eat my swatch (which is currently up my ass)
I seem to remember Nick P moaning about the same thing. Yes, that Nick P, who as an MP voted for these absolutely brain-dead rules.
It does Parliamentarians good every now and then to find out that there are downsides to the endless procedural nonsense that they subject the rest of us to.
It does Parliamentarians good every now and then to find out that there are downsides to the endless procedural nonsense that they subject the rest of us to.
In principle, yes, but in practice they seem to want an exemption in view of their elevated status, rather than repealing the ludicrous nonsense.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
EV4EL would be much more salient if a series of unpopular pieces of legislation now on the statute books could be shown to have been imposed by Scottish MPs on England. The only one that I can think of, though, is tuition fees - and since that happened the Coalition has taken it one step further.
As it stands, therefore, it's an issue that will conceptually annoy some voters, but it is unlikely to get them to change their votes. And if you are a Labour voter, why would you worry about it in the first place? You want a Labour government.
This looks to me to be much more about the Tories seeking to get voters to come back from UKIP. On that basis the really interesting response will be UKIP's.
Having missed the debate so far and only seeing the headline stuff, am I an idiot for not understanding the arguments against EV4EL on the basis that it would create two classes of MP? Not saying there may not be good arguments against it, but on the assumption that the loudest argument put is the one which resonates and which is seen as most vital, that the loudest one I've heard so far makes no sense to me on initial reaction may be a problem I suppose.
There are already two classes of MP. Those who can vote only on their own domestic issues, and those who can only vote on other people's (English) domestic issues.
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. .
You're right.
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
Of course they have bigger things to worry about, but how they will vote will depend partly on the narrative that they believe in as to which politicians (if any) are "most on my side". These narratives are being constructed by the Yes parties in Scotland, and by the Tories on EVEL in England.
Labour are blundering about from trap to trap - successfully falling into all of them. They might still scrape largest party in May 2015, but unlikely to have much power over anything.
You mean the SNP working with the Tories to hammer Labour? Surely not.
Having missed the debate so far and only seeing the headline stuff, am I an idiot for not understanding the arguments against EV4EL on the basis that it would create two classes of MP? Not saying there may not be good arguments against it, but on the assumption that the loudest argument put is the one which resonates and which is seen as most vital, that the loudest one I've heard so far makes no sense to me on initial reaction may be a problem I suppose.
There are already two classes of MP. Those who can vote only on their own domestic issues, and those who can only vote on other people's (English) domestic issues.
Well quite - that's why I'm confused at the vehemence of the argument that EV4EL would be wrong for that reason.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
Socrates, the Nonce Finder General is donning a cloak, and buffing his boots.
The Tories certainly haven't lost their knack of looking unattractive.
In what way is it unattractive for a people to govern themselves? Oh, that's right - when they elect Tories. It's the arrogance of some on the left to believe they alone have the right to determine what is legitimate that's unattractive.
While EV4EL is clearly a ploy to draw back some UKIP leaning types, if Labour are even more cynically partisan than is usual for political parties on this, or appearing to be so, which is a potential risk if hardly inevitable, it will sour me on them a little, at least temporarily. I'm sure the Tories or someone else would so something to even the score in short order.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
The government could have been well ahead of this with a national police operation up and running...
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. .
You're right.
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
Of course they have bigger things to worry about, but how they will vote will depend partly on the narrative that they believe in as to which politicians (if any) are "most on my side". These narratives are being constructed by the Yes parties in Scotland, and by the Tories on EVEL in England.
Labour are blundering about from trap to trap - successfully falling into all of them. They might still scrape largest party in May 2015, but unlikely to have much power over anything.
You mean the SNP working with the Tories to hammer Labour? Surely not.
The ability of PB posters to make silly points hasn't abated during my absence! No. The Yes parties (do learn something about Scotland - not just SNP) are creating one narrative. The Tories in England are creating a different one. Labour could avoid both by endorsing a radical Devo Max policy for both Scotland and the other 3 UK nations, but they are intellectually, conceptually and tactically barren.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
I don't jump to any conclusions. But I can hear the creak of the pogo sticks being reached for by others.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. .
You're right.
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
Of course they have bigger things to worry about, but how they will vote will depend partly on the narrative that they believe in as to which politicians (if any) are "most on my side". These narratives are being constructed by the Yes parties in Scotland, and by the Tories on EVEL in England.
Labour are blundering about from trap to trap - successfully falling into all of them. They might still scrape largest party in May 2015, but unlikely to have much power over anything.
You mean the SNP working with the Tories to hammer Labour? Surely not.
The ability of PB posters to make silly points hasn't abated during my absence! No. The Yes parties (do learn something about Scotland - not just SNP) are creating one narrative. The Tories in England are creating a different one. Labour could avoid both by endorsing a radical Devo Max policy for both Scotland and the other 3 UK nations, but they are intellectually, conceptually and tactically barren.
The Yes parties in Scotland are essentially the SNP and a few minor players. Remember that the Greens got more seats in London than they did in Scotland at the Euro elections.
My point is that if the SNP make a big thing of Scottish Labour MPs not being allowed to vote on English matters then they will be saying the same thing as the Tories. Or, in the language the SNP used during the referendum campaign, they will be colluding with the Tories.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
I don't jump to any conclusions. But I can hear the creak of the pogo sticks being reached for by others.
Yes you do. You would not have posted as you did if you thought there was a realistic possibility that the individuals in question were (at a minimum) fifth generation Mancunians. Why did you rule out that possibility?
Having missed the debate so far and only seeing the headline stuff, am I an idiot for not understanding the arguments against EV4EL on the basis that it would create two classes of MP? Not saying there may not be good arguments against it, but on the assumption that the loudest argument put is the one which resonates and which is seen as most vital, that the loudest one I've heard so far makes no sense to me on initial reaction may be a problem I suppose.
There are already two classes of MP. Those who can vote only on their own domestic issues, and those who can only vote on other people's (English) domestic issues.
Well quite - that's why I'm confused at the vehemence of the argument that EV4EL would be wrong for that reason.
It think its more a case of any argument they think they can get traction on when they are so clearly on the wrong side of the argument.....
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. .
You're right.
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
Of course they have bigger things to worry about, but how they will vote will depend partly on the narrative that they believe in as to which politicians (if any) are "most on my side". These narratives are being constructed by the Yes parties in Scotland, and by the Tories on EVEL in England.
Labour are blundering about from trap to trap - successfully falling into all of them. They might still scrape largest party in May 2015, but unlikely to have much power over anything.
You mean the SNP working with the Tories to hammer Labour? Surely not.
The ability of PB posters to make silly points hasn't abated during my absence! No. The Yes parties (do learn something about Scotland - not just SNP) are creating one narrative. The Tories in England are creating a different one. Labour could avoid both by endorsing a radical Devo Max policy for both Scotland and the other 3 UK nations, but they are intellectually, conceptually and tactically barren.
The Yes parties in Scotland are essentially the SNP and a few minor players. Remember that the Greens got more seats in London than they did in Scotland at the Euro elections.
My point is that if the SNP make a big thing of Scottish Labour MPs not being allowed to vote on English matters then they will be saying the same thing as the Tories. Or, in the language the SNP used during the referendum campaign, they will be colluding with the Tories.
As for Labour, I agree.
SNP, SGP, & SSP actually play to different "markets". Just going by votes cast for each party will mislead in this campaign.
None of them will say much about EVEL - other than a point which has long been widely accepted in Scotland, that it's a good idea for each country to run its own domestic affairs.
EVEL is not the narrative that is being constructed in Scotland. It's never wise to assume that we care much about how England chooses to run its own business.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
EV4EL would be much more salient if a series of unpopular pieces of legislation now on the statute books could be shown to have been imposed by Scottish MPs on England. The only one that I can think of, though, is tuition fees - and since that happened the Coalition has taken it one step further.
As it stands, therefore, it's an issue that will conceptually annoy some voters, but it is unlikely to get them to change their votes. And if you are a Labour voter, why would you worry about it in the first place? You want a Labour government.
This looks to me to be much more about the Tories seeking to get voters to come back from UKIP. On that basis the really interesting response will be UKIP's.
I think you will find the standard response from UKIP is a 7 letter word
'BARNETT'
UKIP are looking to reform Barnett in return for tax concessions (unlike the Tories who have guaranteed it which seems to give the Scots a budget boost if they are also going to devolve tax revenues). That can also resonate with Blue collar Labour WC English patriots (they don't need to be white)
It seems to me that resigning your seat and standing for a new party creates several problems for those who want to unseat you. The main one being attacking someone they so recently endorsed. It doesn't work the opposite way -defectors seem to be able to slate their former parties with abandon.
This is a really interesting wiki page of floor crossings (apols if posted already):
I count 4 resignings of the whip and re-standing under different colours in an immediate by-elections now, 3 successful (Carswell, Lady Sylvia Hermon, Dick Taverne), one not (Bruce Douglas-Mann). That's quite a good record now.
Thanks Rod -makes my crappy research look even worse. But it is very interesting what you say! I am a huge believer in immutable truth vs. current trends. Perhaps there is a hitherto unconsidered psychological effect that this style of defection has on the electorate (or obviously it could also be people only doing it when they think it's a dead cert!).
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
If large numbers of paedophiles are known to be walking free in Manchester because the police can't or won't act there is every reason to be furious. We do not need to know anything more than that, do we?
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Err fairly sure what you have just done is illegal.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Your warning would have been pointless and meaningless if you had thought for one moment this was about Mr Hawthorne or one of his compatriots.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Err fairly sure what you have just done is illegal.
It seems to me that resigning your seat and standing for a new party creates several problems for those who want to unseat you. The main one being attacking someone they so recently endorsed. It doesn't work the opposite way -defectors seem to be able to slate their former parties with abandon.
This is a really interesting wiki page of floor crossings (apols if posted already):
I count 4 resignings of the whip and re-standing under different colours in an immediate by-elections now, 3 successful (Carswell, Lady Sylvia Hermon, Dick Taverne), one not (Bruce Douglas-Mann). That's quite a good record now.
Thanks Rod -makes my crappy research look even worse. But it is very interesting what you say! I am a huge believer in immutable truth vs. current trends. Perhaps there is a hitherto unconsidered psychological effect that this style of defection has on the electorate (or obviously it could also be people only doing it when they think it's a dead cert!).
It is also worth mentioning that the only one who was unsuccessful was not beaten by the party he left (Labour) but by The Conservative Party. So never once has the former party held the seat.
I'd be curious what the result would be if the Tories tried to sell the idea when the public were made aware that it would involve not only a duplicate House of Commons (English only) a House of Lords (English only) the full panoply of civil servants Speakers Deputy Speakers Sergeant at arms Deputy Sergeant at arms Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod his assistant the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod the Lord Chamberlain the assistant Lord Chamberlain holder of the Queens Chamber Pot.....
.........in fact the full gravy train of Tories in costume......Perhaps they could take over the o2 Arena to build the new parliament building?
Got to be better than building a few new hospitals
EV4EL would be much more salient if a series of unpopular pieces of legislation now on the statute books could be shown to have been imposed by Scottish MPs on England. The only one that I can think of, though, is tuition fees - and since that happened the Coalition has taken it one step further.
As it stands, therefore, it's an issue that will conceptually annoy some voters, but it is unlikely to get them to change their votes. And if you are a Labour voter, why would you worry about it in the first place? You want a Labour government.
This looks to me to be much more about the Tories seeking to get voters to come back from UKIP. On that basis the really interesting response will be UKIP's.
I think you will find the standard response from UKIP is a 7 letter word
'BARNETT'
UKIP are looking to reform Barnett in return for tax concessions (unlike the Tories who have guaranteed it which seems to give the Scots a budget boost if they are also going to devolve tax revenues). That can also resonate with Blue collar Labour WC English patriots (they don't need to be white)
It can resonate with Labour patriots (are you not a patriot if it does not resonate?), but I am not sure it would push many into the UKIP camp - especially as it is almost an entirely abstract concept currently. Much more likely, it seems to me, is that this is about the Tories seeking to cash in on a dislike of Labour among ex-Tory UKIPers in order to win them back.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Yes... and the difference is that he has been banged up tor nine of the last ten years and is in Prison now
The story isn't that paedophiles exist, it's that some are known about and let off
If any PBers are watching this itv news, I am surprised they aren't ringing Ofcom to complain.. its like it has been written by @MrJones
(1) Northern Asian paedophile gang not charged by Manchester Police
(2) Immigrant shouts "I hate white people" and plans Mumbai style bombing
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Err fairly sure what you have just done is illegal.
Mr. Sykes, it's a theoretical question right now but after the election it'll become a live one. If Miliband is PM and foists things on England, due to Scottish votes in Parliament, it'll soon become a hot topic and foster resentment. .
You're right.
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
Of course they have bigger things to worry about, but how they will vote will depend partly on the narrative that they believe in as to which politicians (if any) are "most on my side". These narratives are being constructed by the Yes parties in Scotland, and by the Tories on EVEL in England.
Labour are blundering about from trap to trap - successfully falling into all of them. They might still scrape largest party in May 2015, but unlikely to have much power over anything.
You mean the SNP working with the Tories to hammer Labour? Surely not.
The ability of PB posters to make silly points hasn't abated during my absence! No. The Yes parties (do learn something about Scotland - not just SNP) are creating one narrative. The Tories in England are creating a different one. Labour could avoid both by endorsing a radical Devo Max policy for both Scotland and the other 3 UK nations, but they are intellectually, conceptually and tactically barren.
The Yes parties in Scotland are essentially the SNP and a few minor players. Remember that the Greens got more seats in London than they did in Scotland at the Euro elections.
My point is that if the SNP make a big thing of Scottish Labour MPs not being allowed to vote on English matters then they will be saying the same thing as the Tories. Or, in the language the SNP used during the referendum campaign, they will be colluding with the Tories.
As for Labour, I agree.
SNP, SGP, & SSP actually play to different "markets". Just going by votes cast for each party will mislead in this campaign.
None of them will say much about EVEL - other than a point which has long been widely accepted in Scotland, that it's a good idea for each country to run its own domestic affairs.
EVEL is not the narrative that is being constructed in Scotland. It's never wise to assume that we care much about how England chooses to run its own business.
EV4EL is all about the status of Scottish MPs at Westminster.
I'd be curious what the result would be if the Tories tried to sell the idea through a referendum when the public were made aware that it would involve not only a duplicate House of Commons (English only) a House of Lords (English only) the full panoply of civil servants Speakers Deputy Speakers Sergeant at arms Deputy Sergeant at arms Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod his assistant the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod the Lord Chamberlain the assistant Lord Chamberlain holder of the Queens Chamber Pot.....
.........in fact the full gravy train of Tories in costume......Perhaps they could take over the o2 Arena to build the new parliament building?
Straw man - it's Labour who want to create regional assemblies and more jobs for the boyos. All the Tories want to do is get current MPs to vote on matters that affect their constituents, and not on matters that don't.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
The government could have been well ahead of this with a national police operation up and running...
I'm not sure our prison system would take it. Which is why I propose subcontracting sentences for violent crime out. Surely some third world corner would take £10,000 a year for their bed and board and be delighted to look after them for us.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Err fairly sure what you have just done is illegal.
How so?
The innocent face/sally berscow presedent.
Bercow made libellous allegations about an innocent man, and paid dearly, whilst Hawthorne has been convicted twice for abuse.
@oldnat were you the Scottish nationalist with whom I had the bet about the relative durability of Alex Salmond and Nick Clegg?
Nope. I don't bet (hence my initial disappointment at logging back in here and discovering that people were actually talking relevantly for the site! :-) )
Was your bet about the length of time that each would lead their party? or their continuation in politics?
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Yes.. and the difference is that he has been banged up twice
If you have a very strong stomach, read a bit about him from this BBC report from 10 years ago:
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Err fairly sure what you have just done is illegal.
@oldnat were you the Scottish nationalist with whom I had the bet about the relative durability of Alex Salmond and Nick Clegg?
Nope. I don't bet (hence my initial disappointment at logging back in here and discovering that people were actually talking relevantly for the site! :-) )
Was your bet about the length of time that each would lead their party? or their continuation in politics?
Which would remain leading their party longer. I need to rummage around my records as to who it was, because it's looking good for me...
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
If large numbers of paedophiles are known to be walking free in Manchester because the police can't or won't act there is every reason to be furious. We do not need to know anything more than that, do we?
I think there is rather an unbridgeable gap between, say, "all right-thinking people will be utterly outraged ..." and "Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight". There's a very obvious factual assumption you have to make to get from one to the other.
I haven't seen the news item in question. Just for the record, is there any shared characteristic between the individuals under suspicion?
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Err fairly sure what you have just done is illegal.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
Well yes, but the point you are making is the point I am making to him, which is that he is tying himself in a bien-pensant knot by drawing conclusions which I think are justified but which are against his own rules.
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Err fairly sure what you have just done is illegal.
I'd be curious what the result would be if the Tories tried to sell the idea when the public were made aware that it would involve not only a duplicate House of Commons (English only) a House of Lords (English only) the full panoply of civil servants Speakers Deputy Speakers Sergeant at arms Deputy Sergeant at arms Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod his assistant the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod the Lord Chamberlain the assistant Lord Chamberlain holder of the Queens Chamber Pot.....
.........in fact the full gravy train of Tories in costume......Perhaps they could take over the o2 Arena to build the new parliament building?
Got to be better than building a few new hospitals
Seems a somewhat deranged idea. Which is why it would never happen. For example, the civil servants in Whitehall who deal with English matters would continue to do so, but simply be answerable to English Ministers. The holder of the Royal pisspot would a reserved matter, and the Royalists in the rest of the UK would fight to the death (literally in the case of Ulster) for HM's urinary functions to be reserved to the deliberations of the UKK Parliament.
EV4EL would be much more salient if a series of unpopular pieces of legislation now on the statute books could be shown to have been imposed by Scottish MPs on England. The only one that I can think of, though, is tuition fees - and since that happened the Coalition has taken it one step further.
As it stands, therefore, it's an issue that will conceptually annoy some voters, but it is unlikely to get them to change their votes. And if you are a Labour voter, why would you worry about it in the first place? You want a Labour government.
This looks to me to be much more about the Tories seeking to get voters to come back from UKIP. On that basis the really interesting response will be UKIP's.
I think you will find the standard response from UKIP is a 7 letter word
'BARNETT'
UKIP are looking to reform Barnett in return for tax concessions (unlike the Tories who have guaranteed it which seems to give the Scots a budget boost if they are also going to devolve tax revenues). That can also resonate with Blue collar Labour WC English patriots (they don't need to be white)
It can resonate with Labour patriots (are you not a patriot if it does not resonate?), but I am not sure it would push many into the UKIP camp - especially as it is almost an entirely abstract concept currently. Much more likely, it seems to me, is that this is about the Tories seeking to cash in on a dislike of Labour among ex-Tory UKIPers in order to win them back.
No of course it is not decisive in deciding whether one is patriotic or no but people who do not identify with England as an entity are less likely to be concerned about it I believe. Certainly I can see the aspect of it that you are alluding to but the argument UKIP will be putting forward has a financial dimension (e.g. your taxes going to pay Fred Goodwin's free prescriptions, your taxes to pay for EU bureaucrats kids free university education when you have to pay) whereas the Tory line will surely be some esoteric and ineffective proposal for Westminster. IMO the potential UKIP lines have far more potency than the Tory line. The thing is just as with the EU and Immigration if you want the real policy you vote UKIP. If you want some tepid half measure you vote Tory. The UKIP line against Labour is simply, Labour don't care about your rights / tax burden they are only thinking about themselves.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
The government could have been well ahead of this with a national police operation up and running...
I'm not sure our prison system would take it. Which is why I propose subcontracting sentences for violent crime out. Surely some third world corner would take £10,000 a year for their bed and board and be delighted to look after them for us.
Why not? We've already outsourced a good bit of the crime to foreign nationals!
While EV4EL is clearly a ploy to draw back some UKIP leaning types, if Labour are even more cynically partisan than is usual for political parties on this, or appearing to be so, which is a potential risk if hardly inevitable, it will sour me on them a little, at least temporarily. I'm sure the Tories or someone else would so something to even the score in short order.
As an experiment I wrote a long piece about the different options and asked constituents (there are around 4000 homes that subscriber, though who knows how many actually read it?) what they preferred.
'All the Tories want to do is get current MPs to vote on matters that affect their constituents, and not on matters that don't.'
When we have an hereditary head of state and a house of Lords part hereditary part appointed worrying about a few MP's being able to vote on matters that don't directly concern their constituents is beyond parody
I'd be curious what the result would be if the Tories tried to sell the idea when the public were made aware that it would involve not only a duplicate House of Commons (English only) a House of Lords (English only) the full panoply of civil servants Speakers Deputy Speakers Sergeant at arms Deputy Sergeant at arms Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod his assistant the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod the Lord Chamberlain the assistant Lord Chamberlain holder of the Queens Chamber Pot.....
.........in fact the full gravy train of Tories in costume......Perhaps they could take over the o2 Arena to build the new parliament building?
Got to be better than building a few new hospitals
Oh not this tired old lie again. It duplicates nothing. It replaces what is already there.
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I am not an obsessive poster on this issue but it is rather a serious one. Why is it appropriate to call those who do post about it a "zoo"?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
I .
Yes.. and the difference is that he has been banged up twice
If you have a very strong stomach, read a bit about him from this BBC report from 10 years ago:
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
Reading comments like that, you can understand why those council workers with suspicions in Rotherham felt so intimidated that they kept schtum
I suggest you google the name "Raymond Hawthorne" and then you might realise that Manchester has more than one group of voracious and manipulative paedophiles.
Yes.. and the difference is that he has been banged up twice
If you have a very strong stomach, read a bit about him from this BBC report from 10 years ago:
Just to give everyone fair warning that the pb zoo inmates are going to be seriously rattling their cages tonight:
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago .@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
I take it you don't have kids, antifrank?
Funny how paedophilia is incredibly important when it's your political opponents involved:
Gays and Guardianistas - Roman Catholic Church Simon Danczuk - Rochdale Liberals Tory tabloids - BBC
And a "social problem" when their own favoured organisations are involved:
Peter Tatchell - Gays Guardianistas - BBC and Muslims TSE - Tory Party Labour Party - Asian Muslims
Perhaps we should not be surprised at the Mexican standoff at Westminster, but UKIP are just about to spoil all that.
'All the Tories want to do is get current MPs to vote on matters that affect their constituents, and not on matters that don't.'
When we have an hereditary head of state and a house of Lords part hereditary part appointed worrying about a few MP's being able to vote on matters that don't directly concern their constituents is beyond parody
What's beyond parody is Labour bleating about "two classes of MPs" when they created two classes of MPs with their devolution fudge -MPs who vote on issues that affect their constituents and MPs who vote on matters that don't affect their constituents......
While EV4EL is clearly a ploy to draw back some UKIP leaning types, if Labour are even more cynically partisan than is usual for political parties on this, or appearing to be so, which is a potential risk if hardly inevitable, it will sour me on them a little, at least temporarily. I'm sure the Tories or someone else would so something to even the score in short order.
As an experiment I wrote a long piece about the different options and asked constituents (there are around 4000 homes that subscriber, though who knows how many actually read it?) what they preferred.
Normally I get lots of feedback; on this occasion, there was almost dead silence. People commented on other bits of the article, but not on this.
I don't doubt it, even with issues which people may well get riled up about if someone else raises it, an indepth discussion of the constitutional complications and potential solutions will put paid to most peoples' enthusiasm on the subject if they even had it to begin with.
I doubt this will cost many, if any, votes. I don't know which option I would prefer at this point, if anything (sometimes the status quo is better than any potential solution after all). I still don't understand the Labour argument that creating two tiers of MP is unconscionable when it has already occurred though.
Comments
Trouble is, no matter what people think about the injustice of the WLQ and EVEL, hardly anyone cares enough to influence how they vote.
Ed knows this, Labour know this. No matter about ignoring the injustice to the people of England when the Commons votes on it, he knows it has limited resonance on the doorstep, to the extent it has then he can, not unreasonably, say that the Tories are just trying to foist their own partisan solution onto a century old problem in a matter of months before a GE when he proposes a pointless talking shop next year with no false deadline.
All he has to do is sit back, let Farage hand him loads of Tory seats and help him retain his own, and coast into Downing St. If I was Ed, I'd pack the Shadow Cabinet off with me and go on leave for 6 months and return to take power on May 8th.
http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/10/lord-ashcroft-dont-blame-it-on-the-coalition-how-the-parties-have-failed-the-test-set-in-2010.html
None of the established parties, then, can truly claim to have met the challenges the voters set them. The Conservatives have not properly shown their purpose to people who do not trust their motives; the Lib Dems have used what power they have to fruitless ends; Labour have complacently declined to tackle the fears people have about putting them back in charge
EDIT THOSE QUOTES!!! I didn't say that, someone else did
http://www.annafirth.org.uk
http://www.kellytolhurst.org.uk
The number 420 has interesting connotations, will there be extra long cigarettes, clouds of smoke, and hysterical giggling?
The educated Pole does not speak as good English as us though.
With many of these issues it is not so much the individual issue but the general impression of 'not being on their side, not being people like us and putting self and party interest before the nation, and disregarding someone's democratic deficit is in fact a pretty big red flag from that viewpoint. You'd have thought Labour would have learned. Labour lost three million voters in Tony Blair's first term *(when devolution was passed and the Euro was a hot topic) and it wasn't because of the economy which was doing fine and it wasn't because of the NHS (because Brown was throwing money at it).
But it won't stop us having to endure 5 years of Miliband as PM.
And I still don't think it will have the English rioting on the streets, or prevent died in the wool Labourites voting Labour. People have bigger things to worry about than the workings of Parliament and constitutional reform.
I like extra long cigarettes.
The number 420 relates to Marijuana.
See also-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_(drug)
https://twitter.com/rihanna
Coincidence? I think not!
"Tim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie · 3h3 hours ago
English votes for Eng laws is a classic Crosby issue. It's not where public opinion is today that counts but where he knows he can take it.
Tim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie · 3h3 hours ago
Re previous Tweet: Labour don't know what's coming at them.........."
This is in stark contrast with his reaction on the day, when he was doing his best to justify the Conservatives' tagline as the stupid party:
"Tim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie · Sep 18
Don't much like the complicated, bureaucratic English votes for English laws; English Parliament much cleaner, more potent way forward."
Is her hair her own?
No
Labour are blundering about from trap to trap - successfully falling into all of them. They might still scrape largest party in May 2015, but unlikely to have much power over anything.
Lol - my swatch was up my ass hours ago.
I keep telling you to give me more respect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_by-election_records#By-elections_to_ratify_a_change_of_party
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29618172
Who the hell do they think passed these laws?
I seem to remember Nick P moaning about the same thing. Yes, that Nick P, who as an MP voted for these absolutely brain-dead rules.
http://toque.co.uk/english-parliament-opinion-polls
Not Bad for Clegg.
The Tories certainly haven't lost their knack of looking unattractive.
Labour certainly haven't lost their knack of being undemocratic.
If these educated Poles have read more than 5 English language fiction books I will eat my swatch (which is currently up my ass)
Alastair Stewart @alstewitn · 8m8 minutes ago
.@itvnews at 6:30pm EXCLUSIVE Allegations of a large number of paedophiles, walking free in Manchester. Police know but can't or won't act.
Run and hide.
As it stands, therefore, it's an issue that will conceptually annoy some voters, but it is unlikely to get them to change their votes. And if you are a Labour voter, why would you worry about it in the first place? You want a Labour government.
This looks to me to be much more about the Tories seeking to get voters to come back from UKIP. On that basis the really interesting response will be UKIP's.
And your post only makes any sense at all if you have jumped to a (probably correct) conclusion about the paedophiles in question which can in no way be directly deduced from the information given in the tweet. Why do you jump to it?
The more you think about that, the sillier your position looks.
My point is that if the SNP make a big thing of Scottish Labour MPs not being allowed to vote on English matters then they will be saying the same thing as the Tories. Or, in the language the SNP used during the referendum campaign, they will be colluding with the Tories.
As for Labour, I agree.
Thoughtcrime.
None of them will say much about EVEL - other than a point which has long been widely accepted in Scotland, that it's a good idea for each country to run its own domestic affairs.
EVEL is not the narrative that is being constructed in Scotland. It's never wise to assume that we care much about how England chooses to run its own business.
Police ignored a report from a decade ago
'BARNETT'
UKIP are looking to reform Barnett in return for tax concessions (unlike the Tories who have guaranteed it which seems to give the Scots a budget boost if they are also going to devolve tax revenues). That can also resonate with Blue collar Labour WC English patriots (they don't need to be white)
I guess you're the lawyer...
I'd be curious what the result would be if the Tories tried to sell the idea when the public were made aware that it would involve not only a duplicate House of Commons (English only) a House of Lords (English only) the full panoply of civil servants Speakers Deputy Speakers Sergeant at arms Deputy Sergeant at arms Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod his assistant the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod the Lord Chamberlain the assistant Lord Chamberlain holder of the Queens Chamber Pot.....
.........in fact the full gravy train of Tories in costume......Perhaps they could take over the o2 Arena to build the new parliament building?
Got to be better than building a few new hospitals
The story isn't that paedophiles exist, it's that some are known about and let off
If any PBers are watching this itv news, I am surprised they aren't ringing Ofcom to complain.. its like it has been written by @MrJones
(1) Northern Asian paedophile gang not charged by Manchester Police
(2) Immigrant shouts "I hate white people" and plans Mumbai style bombing
(3) British Jihadists flat raided
Or a Welsh Assembly, for that matter.
The desperation of some to try and avoid giving England something approaching equality is in equal measure baffling and infuriating.
What's your point?
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/raymond-hawthorne-jailed-man-who-7231258
Was your bet about the length of time that each would lead their party? or their continuation in politics?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/09_11_04_fo4_paedophiles.pdf
The issues raised are strikingly similar to those in the Rotherham case.
I haven't seen the news item in question. Just for the record, is there any shared characteristic between the individuals under suspicion?
;-)
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-14/itv-news-investigation-finds-hundreds-of-child-abusers-walking-free-in-manchester-due-to-police-failings/
No wonder GMP started their did you know how great we are at using Twitter to fight crime campaign.
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/a-jump-in-the-minimum-wageev4elcouncil-plans/
Normally I get lots of feedback; on this occasion, there was almost dead silence. People commented on other bits of the article, but not on this.
'All the Tories want to do is get current MPs to vote on matters that affect their constituents, and not on matters that don't.'
When we have an hereditary head of state and a house of Lords part hereditary part appointed worrying about a few MP's being able to vote on matters that don't directly concern their constituents is beyond parody
Funny how paedophilia is incredibly important when it's your political opponents involved:
Gays and Guardianistas - Roman Catholic Church
Simon Danczuk - Rochdale Liberals
Tory tabloids - BBC
And a "social problem" when their own favoured organisations are involved:
Peter Tatchell - Gays
Guardianistas - BBC and Muslims
TSE - Tory Party
Labour Party - Asian Muslims
Perhaps we should not be surprised at the Mexican standoff at Westminster, but UKIP are just about to spoil all that.
Not before time.
I doubt this will cost many, if any, votes. I don't know which option I would prefer at this point, if anything (sometimes the status quo is better than any potential solution after all). I still don't understand the Labour argument that creating two tiers of MP is unconscionable when it has already occurred though.