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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For the moment at least Woolwich makes a CON leadership cha

SystemSystem Posts: 12,137
edited May 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For the moment at least Woolwich makes a CON leadership challenge less likely

Thursday’s Sun front page – “We killed this British soldier. It’s an eye for an eye” #tomorrowspaperstoday #Woolwich twitter.com/suttonnick/sta…

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    A politicised butcher who has damaged social harmony more than an EDL march.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    I find the speculation about the political fortunes of Dave & the Tories as a result of this horrific murder distasteful.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2013
    @daemonbarber

    " I find the speculation about the political fortunes of Dave & the Tories as a result of this horrific murder distasteful."

    I agree. Yes this is a betting site but it's plain indecent. These incidents really show up the instant comment culture of today for its tastelessness. At the end of the day a life has been lost for no reason- terribly sad and no way a betting matter.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Latest YouGov / The Sun results 22nd May - CON 29%, LAB 39%, LD 11%, UKIP 16%; APP -37
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Britons feeling less worried about their economic prospects as concerns about the speed and size of austerity continue to subside, while perception of austerity's impact on personal lives hits an all-time low

    In its annual report on the British Economy, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) praised "nascent signs of momentum" but warned the British government that it was "still a long way from a strong and sustainable recovery". It also said that while the country's fiscal policies had gained its government credibility, the "planned fiscal tightening will be a drag on growth" and Britain should speed up infrastructure spending to "offset" austerity.

    YouGov has run polls tracking public perception of austerity measures since they became central to coalition government economic policy in 2010. In a previous study, these polls showed public concerns about government spending cuts had begun to thaw, if slowly, and more recent data has shown this trend continuing. New data also suggests that people are becoming less worried about their own financial situation.

    Austerity

    In fact, the most recent polling on the effects of austerity finds 54% of Britons perceive the spending cuts as impacting their lives, it's lowest point since YouGov began asking the question in June 2010. This marks a drop of 18 points from the tracker's peak, which occured when 72% said the cuts were having an impact on their lives for three consecutive weeks in March 2011.

    The percentage of Britons who think that the cuts are "too deep" has also continued to trend downwards, at 40% most recently after reaching its lowest point since 2010 in March, days before the 2013 Budget was announced.

    Economic well-being

    Polls tracking the British public's economic outlook outside of the context of austerity reveal that worries about personal economic well-being and job security have also begun to wane.

    Britons are still broadly worried about what kind of personal financial situation awaits them in a couple years time. 63% say they worry about about whether in the next two or three years they will have enough money to live comfortably, while 32% say they do not. In comparison, at one point in July of 2011, 76% were worried about their personal financial prospects.

    This slight improvement comes one week after the ONS announced that for the first quarter of 2013 UK earnings excluding bonuses grew at the slowest rate (0.8) since the record-taking begain in 2001.

    Employment

    The quarterly report from the ONS also brought news of an uptick in unemployment, to 2.52 million, leading an ONS spokesperson to tell the BBC that while unemployment had been falling, that period "seems to have come to an end".

    Again, public sentiment appears to defy economic trends. In recent weeks, worry about losing their jobs amongs British adults has fallen to two-year lows. As of May 19-20, only 57% worry about losing their jobs or not finding work, down from a highpoint of 67% in 2011.

    Improvement in the Britons' views on their own financial prospects has clearly lagged behind rising confidence in austerity measures. However, much of the slight change in personal outlook has occured in the last six months, suggesting that despite the recent uptick in unemployment, "nascent signs of momentum" are present in public opinion too.

    In response to the IMF report, Osborne said he would make infrastructure investment "the focus of the spending round next month."

    For tracking graphs see:
    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/05/22/brits-not-feeling-austeritys-bite/
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    This should be worth a 3 pt polling bump for the UKIP
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,693

    I find the speculation about the political fortunes of Dave & the Tories as a result of this horrific murder distasteful.

    Whether it's distasteful or not, events like this have consequences. Remember all the fuss about whether Bush really won the 2000 election? That stopped pretty much absolutely as soon as the trade center towers were hit.

    The Woolwich murders were a political act and have political consequences. The authorities are well aware of that and so should we be.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Off-Topic

    I am a bit surprised to discover (from reports yesterday) that David McGreavy has not been given a whole-life tariff for his crimes. He was originally (in 1973) given a minimum tariff of 20 years, but his crimes were so serious that - in comparison with other similar cases - it would have been reasonable for his tariff to have been increased since then to 40 or 50 years, or whole-life. But he has applied (unsuccessfully) for parole a number of times since 2007, and even spent some time in 2006-7 in a half-way house / parole hostel / in preparation for eventual release

    While baby-sitting for three small children (aged 4, 2 and 9 months), he strangled one, stabbed another, and smashed in the skull of a third, and then impaled all three bodies on garden railings.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-mcgreavy-monster-worcester-sadistic-1903878
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I find the speculation about the political fortunes of Dave & the Tories as a result of this horrific murder distasteful.

    Whether it's distasteful or not, events like this have consequences. Remember all the fuss about whether Bush really won the 2000 election? That stopped pretty much absolutely as soon as the trade center towers were hit.

    The Woolwich murders were a political act and have political consequences. The authorities are well aware of that and so should we be.
    The blood soaked Woolwich killer specifically stated that he wanted the British to remove their leaders.

    Whether this was specific to Cameron I think unlikely, I suspect he is no more keen on Ed Milliband.

    The murder was political.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    Cameron will rise to the occasion. I don't like his politics but he is a decent man.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    This is a political betting site. Those that do not wish to consider the political betting implications of news stories should perhaps look elsewhere?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    For those interested in such things a history of negative numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_number#History

    It is interesting for the purposes of this thread that through most of history negative numbers have been thought "absurd" and results requiring them ignored.

    There never was going to be a challenge to Cameron and this has made no difference to that. He will go if and probably when he loses the next election.

    As for "rising to the occasion" even in our 24 hour news hysteria Cameron is going to have to watch that the Cobra meeting this morning does not seem an absurd over reaction to a horrific murder. Personally I would cancel it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630

    I find the speculation about the political fortunes of Dave & the Tories as a result of this horrific murder distasteful.

    Whether it's distasteful or not, events like this have consequences. Remember all the fuss about whether Bush really won the 2000 election? That stopped pretty much absolutely as soon as the trade center towers were hit.

    The Woolwich murders were a political act and have political consequences. The authorities are well aware of that and so should we be.

    Spot on. The vile excuses for humanity that carried out yesterday's murder were looking for a certain kind of response. It is vital that we do not let them have it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,371
    Is it possible that these young men are clinically insane and have therefore grossly misunderstood what has been said to them?

    They certainly didn't appear rational, by any normal definition.

    In other words it's a random act, not part of any campaign, or as the result of an organisation, Possibly comparable with the Boston bombing, although it requires considerably more planning to build bombs than find a couple of knives and machetes.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314
    As a side issue:

    Are the actions of the cub leader worthy of a George Cross?

    It is awarded in recognition of acts of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger.

    A civilian walking towards two men who have just committed a brutal murder and who are still armed in order to try to talk to them, is certainly conspicuous courage.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2013
    Donating to "Help for Heroes" is still problematic. I'd urge PBers to keep them in mind in the coming days when traffic reduces.

    I'd also direct the site toward SSAFA - an excellent and historic services charity doing fine work :

    http://www.ssafa.org.uk/get-involved/donate/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    @OldKingCole

    It certainly looks a random act by what seem to have been fairly random and delusional people. It is a concern that we have sub sets within our society which are capable of rationalising such behaviour or indeed the far more serious behaviour of 7/7 and the recent bomb threat. Rejection of the more extreme precepts of mulitculturalism and finding ways to properly integrate those communities so they have a sense of belonging and commitment to the values of this country is a long term priority.

    But I agree with Southam Observer. This sort of obscene behaviour is designed to evoke responses which can trigger counter responses. My fear is that if we show that two idiots with knives can bring the UK government to a halt we give them a credibility, noteriety and status that they do not deserve and which inspires similarly deluded souls. It should be business as usual this morning for all except the poor, poor family of that dead soldier whose lives will never be the same.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630

    As a side issue:

    Are the actions of the cub leader worthy of a George Cross?

    It is awarded in recognition of acts of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger.

    A civilian walking towards two men who have just committed a brutal murder and who are still armed in order to try to talk to them, is certainly conspicuous courage.

    Her extraordinarily brave actions are not a side issue, they are the template for how to respond - though few of us would have the courage to do what she did. Compare and contrast with the EDL, looking for a fight and responding in exactly the way the murderers wanted.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    From wiki King George said:

    "In order that they should be worthily and promptly recognised, I have decided to create, at once, a new mark of honour for men and women in all walks of civilian life. I propose to give my name to this new distinction, which will consist of the George Cross, which will rank next to the Victoria Cross, and the George Medal for wider distribution."

    I think today would be reasonably prompt and appropriate.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    On another note, watch the markets today. It could get quite unpleasant. Hopefully not, but there was a big sell-off in Japan overnight and that could spark something similar in Europe and the US. Markets have been soaring recently and it could be time for a correction as current valuations do not seem to correlate to the health of the global economy. Also news today that Chinese manufacturing output may be contracting.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    DavidL said:

    For those interested in such things a history of negative numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_number#History

    It is interesting for the purposes of this thread that through most of history negative numbers have been thought "absurd" and results requiring them ignored.

    Talking of numbers, there is an interesting development about prime numbers here:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10073042/Prime-number-breakthrough-by-unknown-professor.html
    I am confused because, if the report is accurate, then it would mean that the conjecture has been proved - not merely that it has been shown to be more likely.

    "Mathematicians have long theorised that there is an infinite number of twin primes [...] but have never been able to prove it.
    Dr Zhang took a major step towards doing so, however, by demonstrating that no matter how large a twin prime is, there will always be another pair of primes separated from it by less than 70 million.
    Although his paper does not conclusively show that there is an infinite number of twin primes, it effectively proves that the gaps between prime pairs does not keep on growing to an infinite size."

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2013
    DavidL said:

    From wiki King George said:

    "In order that they should be worthily and promptly recognised, I have decided to create, at once, a new mark of honour for men and women in all walks of civilian life. I propose to give my name to this new distinction, which will consist of the George Cross, which will rank next to the Victoria Cross, and the George Medal for wider distribution."

    I think today would be reasonably prompt and appropriate.

    I'd await the full details of the lady's actions but the George Medal and the Queens Gallantry Medal are also available.

    IIRC the brave baggage handler at the Glasgow Airport terrorist incident in 2007 was awarded the QGM.

    Edited :

    John Smeaton QGM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smeaton_ (born_1976)

    Apologies the link for some reason directs to the wrong John Smeaton but itself links to the correct one !!

  • Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 361
    DavidL
    "Rejection of the more extreme precepts of mulitculturalism and finding ways to properly integrate those communities so they have a sense of belonging and commitment to the values of this country is a long term priority."

    Sadly, it is a feature of islam in many of it's forms, including what is sold to us as
    moderate, that a sharp distinction is drawn between believer and unbelievers. The concept of all believers being brothers sounds very nice and friendly, but the downside of course is that the rest of us aren't - humanity is split into 2.
    This lead to British youths of Pakistani parentage in Luton taking sides emphatically in land disputes in the Middle East. I'd like to see this challenged more, from within islam and from outside, but I dont expect it to happen. Our leaders, in Tony Blair fashion, tend to cherry-pick the islamic ideas that they like, and then tell us what true islam is.
  • IMHO a gong of some sort is appropriate but not a GC. A GC is the civilian equivalent of a VC - which are next to impossible to get other than posthumously. If you look at the actions of previous GC winners I do not think, for all the evident bravery of talking to an armed killer, that this is a GC. Maybe a QGM.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    I see Richard Nabavi was last night demanding 'discipline' from the Conservative party.

    Discipline is a party leadership not abusing its memebers and voters.

    Discipline is a Chancellor properly preparing his budget rather than poncing around the USA.

    Discipline is a party leader appointing people on merit not background.

    Discipline is like loyalty, a two way process.

    To earn it you have to show it and a leader needs to set an example.

    Without that then demanding discipling is nothing more than demanding forelock tugging and cheerleading.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That D'Ancona article is one of the best summaries I've read about the Tories identity crisis - and why I'm confused about what Cameron is actually in favour of vs what I expected.

    "The root of the problem is that Cameron, for all his laudable courage over gay marriage, has an ambiguous relationship with his party. For Blair, the relationship was no such thing: he thought that the Labour movement was full of “unreconstructed wankers”. In contrast, Cameron was a cradle Tory and, in his manner, appearance and background, soothed the party as its prospective leader.

    “He’ll win because they [the members] want their daughters to marry someone like him,” is how one of Cameron’s supporters in 2005, now a senior Cabinet minister, described his chances to me. The activists heard a moderniser — “change to win” — but saw one of their own.

    It is too easily forgotten that Cameron’s victory seven-and-a-half years ago was partly made possible by the support of many members of the deeply traditionalist Cornerstone Group of Tory MPs (president: E Leigh) who were convinced that, beneath all the fancy metropolitan “rebranding”, he was a social conservative, “compassionate” like Iain Duncan Smith, rather than exotic and “modernising” like Michael Portillo. They also believed he was a true Eurosceptic..."
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @another_richard

    Your desire for "discipline" is noted. Pass your details onto "Peter the Punter" for appropriate enforcement.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @DavidL mentioned this last night - it wasn't the only incident that the police were investigating but I think this was the only one to go to trial.

    The brutal killing in Woolwich of a man thought to be a serving soldier has chilling echoes of a foiled 2007 plot by a fanatic to kidnap and behead a British Muslim soldier "like a pig". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074888/Woolwich-attack-echoes-of-foiled-2007-plot-to-behead-soldier-like-a-pig.html
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    JackW said:

    @another_richard

    Your desire for "discipline" is noted. Pass your details onto "Peter the Punter" for appropriate enforcement.

    What do you suggest as a safe word ?

    Is 'Louise' still used or would 'Mensch' now be more fashionable ?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314
    Patrick said:

    IMHO a gong of some sort is appropriate but not a GC. A GC is the civilian equivalent of a VC - which are next to impossible to get other than posthumously. If you look at the actions of previous GC winners I do not think, for all the evident bravery of talking to an armed killer, that this is a GC. Maybe a QGM.

    Fair enough, although you are wrong that VCs are next to impossible to get and still be alive. There are plenty of examples - Clarkson's father in law being one.

    Johnson Beharry was awarded one in Afghanistan for extreme bravery:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Beharry

    Whether the GC or QGM, from what I have heard so far, she deserves some recognition.

    My favourite GC (if you can have a 'favourite') is the one awarded to John Axon, a train driver who remained in his cab after his train brakes failed, trying to shut the regulator to stop the train despite scalding steam. He could have joined his fireman in jumping off the footplate, but he kept on trying to stop the train.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Axon

    The BBC wrote a ballad about him.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,509
    I'm sure Cameron and everyone else commenting will rise to the occasion. To be fair I thought Farage did too, as did most of our own UKIP supporters here. In response to FatSteve, it's worth posting the comment from the Muslim Council of Britain:

    "This is a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly. Our thoughts are with the victim and his family. We understand the victim is a serving member of the armed forces. Muslims have long served in this country’s armed forces, proudly and with honour. This attack on a member of the armed forces is dishonourable, and no cause justifies this murder.

    This action will no doubt heighten tensions on the streets of the United Kingdom. We call on all our communities, Muslim and non-Muslim, to come together in solidarity to ensure the forces of hatred do not prevail. It is important we allow our police authorities to do their job without speculation. We also urge the utmost vigilance and ask the police authorities to calm tensions."

    An award to the scout leader is absolutely obvious, and it's not really true that it's impossible to get the VC equivalent of the GC without dying - there was at least one VC for a survivor on the Falklands as I recall (for that matter my godfather got it for attacking the Scharnhorst in a Swordfish plane, and he lived to a ripe old age). There are times for restraint in generosity but in this case I think a GC would be a good gesture which would make a lot of people feel better.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Plato said:

    That D'Ancona article is one of the best summaries I've read about the Tories identity crisis - and why I'm confused about what Cameron is actually in favour of vs what I expected.

    "The root of the problem is that Cameron, for all his laudable courage over gay marriage, has an ambiguous relationship with his party. For Blair, the relationship was no such thing: he thought that the Labour movement was full of “unreconstructed wankers”. In contrast, Cameron was a cradle Tory and, in his manner, appearance and background, soothed the party as its prospective leader.

    “He’ll win because they [the members] want their daughters to marry someone like him,” is how one of Cameron’s supporters in 2005, now a senior Cabinet minister, described his chances to me. The activists heard a moderniser — “change to win” — but saw one of their own.

    It is too easily forgotten that Cameron’s victory seven-and-a-half years ago was partly made possible by the support of many members of the deeply traditionalist Cornerstone Group of Tory MPs (president: E Leigh) who were convinced that, beneath all the fancy metropolitan “rebranding”, he was a social conservative, “compassionate” like Iain Duncan Smith, rather than exotic and “modernising” like Michael Portillo. They also believed he was a true Eurosceptic..."

    Good morning, after washing out the kitchen and bathroom floors. Phew!
    Well Plato, those conservative grandees were completely wrong about their man, and they are completely wrong of how to change and advance this country.

    Regarding earlier talk about that woman who went up to and spoke to one of the killers yesterday. I don't think that this woman knew what had happened exactly, (confirmed my the news sheets) so it wasn't bravery, rather naivety and ignorance that caused her to talk to the man. Mind you, medals have been won for less.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2013
    @NickPalmer

    "An award to the scout leader is absolutely obvious, and it's not really true that it's impossible to get the VC equivalent of the GC without dying - there was at least one VC for a survivor on the Falklands as I recall (for that matter my godfather got it for attacking the Scharnhorst in a Swordfish plane, and he lived to a ripe old age). There are times for restraint in generosity but in this case I think a GC would be a good gesture which would make a lot of people feel better."

    That's incorrect Nick.

    Both Falkland VC's - Col H Jones and Sgt Ian Mckay perished in action.

    You might be thinking of Private Johnson Beharry who survived the 2005 action in Iraq that saw him awarded the VC.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Good morning, everyone.

    11 comments on pb2's early Monaco discussion, 3 of which are genuine. Here's mine:
    "Di Resta's a maybe for me, but I'd not back your Vettel tip. Perez looks interesting. Here's the Spain sector 3 times, apparently a good guide to Monaco:
    http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2013/897/7298/best_sector_times.html

    Perez is 4th, behind only the Mercedes and Vettel."

    Incidentally, if Monaco has a safety car (highly likely) then it'd be the first of the year.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    One for @Yokel...

    "When the old pistol was shot towards police it backfired and blew the thumb off one of the men."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329089/Woolwich-attack-Two-men-hack-soldier-wearing-Help-Heroes-T-shirt-death-machetes-suspected-terror-attack.html#ixzz2U683Oq6H
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    " Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, is proposing the establishment of a chain of state-funded “free schools” which boast an Armed Forces ethos in line with similar plans in the United States.

    The disclosure came as the Department for Education granted approval for one military-style school in Oldham – the first of its kind in the UK.

    Under plans, The Phoenix Free School will open from September 2014 staffed by former members of the Armed Forces and led by a serving Army captain.

    ...Under plans, the Phoenix school will open in Oldham in September 2014 as the first such venture in the UK. It will take children aged 11-to-18.

    Its main backers include Captain AK Burki, a member of the Army’s Counterinsurgency Centre, who recently served in Afghanistan, and Tom Burkard, professor of education policy at Derby University and a former instructor in the Royal Pioneer Corps.

    The school says it will provide a full curriculum and adopt a zero-tolerance approach to behaviour.

    “Our teachers will embody the Army’s core values of moral courage, self-discipline, respect for others, integrity, and loyalty,” the school’s website says. “They will all be trained in the military ‘Methods of Instruction’ syllabus – and they will all know their jobs.” " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10020710/Coalition-plan-for-network-of-military-style-state-schools.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    F1: 35 minutes until P1, by the way. And yes, it is Thursday. As well as being a rubbish processional circuit, Monaco has P1 and P2 on Thursdays.
  • A VC is indeed next to impossible to get and live. Beharry is the only such recipient of a British VC since 1965.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    For all this talk about Cameron hating his activists and him being a fake Tory, I just think his positioning is a lot more obvious: HE'S IN A COALITION WITH A LEFT OF CENTRE PARTY.

    Many of his backbenchers seem to conveniently forget this.

    I have with sympathy with the John Redwood's of this world who probably wouldn't have entered into a coalition in the first place (for economic reasons, rather than - at that stage - EU or gay marriage ones) because he has always been consistent in his ideology. There are many like him. But there are also plenty of dumb, emotional agitators who wanted power, hailed the coalition with the Lib Dems and are now disgusted at the lack of right-wing policies. Well, duh?!

    If the Conservative party gets together and decides it wants OUT of the EU, garners a wing-to-wing agreement about it and puts forwards and in/out bill for this parliament, then fair enough, all power to them. But it will end the coalition. And after that, there will be no confidence and supply, so the government will effectively cease to operate properly. And then, to top it all off, they would lose a vote in parliament over offering an in/out referendum because they don't have enough MPs to carry it.

    Ergo, I can see quite clearly why Cameron is doing what he's doing. He's taken the emotion out of it. He's taken ideology out of it. He's just trying to keep the coalition together for a parliament, hoping he'll have an economic story to sell come April 2015, and hopes to win the next GE. After that, he can give his backbenchers the referendum.

    That's what I think anyway, and I'm no Cameron cheerleader. Politics is as much about compromise as it is about ideology. Especially in a democracy as tolerant and subtle and so lacking in extremes as ours.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    edited May 2013
    A serving VC in a unit actually becomes quite complicated. He becomes the senior soldier in that unit so everyone from the company commanders to the commanding officer (and then superior officers) have to defer to him at each point. It would make running that unit on a day-to-day basis not at all straightforward.
  • redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    It would be good if 500,000 locals marched in London of all faiths condemning the action.
    If one group belonging to islam sees itself as soldiers of faith then it means that stereotyping will sadly become necessary.

    Hate the idea but cannot see how it can be ignored. If I was a soldier and I saw two "foreign" people walking towards me then I suspect I would now cross the road.

    Norwegian nuns are less dangerous than young Islamic men. And need to be judged as such. Wearing Territorial Army uniforms looks a brave move in some areas. All sad but true.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The Times is reporting at least one of the soldier killers is a British-born Muslim.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203
    I wonder, in what way is an horrific beheading of a solider in the middle of a London street an "opportunity" for Cameron?

    What on earth is Lord Ashcroft talking about?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,983
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Fenster said:

    For all this talk about Cameron hating his activists and him being a fake Tory, I just think his positioning is a lot more obvious: HE'S IN A COALITION WITH A LEFT OF CENTRE PARTY.

    Many of his backbenchers seem to conveniently forget this.

    I have with sympathy with the John Redwood's of this world who probably wouldn't have entered into a coalition in the first place (for economic reasons, rather than - at that stage - EU or gay marriage ones) because he has always been consistent in his ideology. There are many like him. But there are also plenty of dumb, emotional agitators who wanted power, hailed the coalition with the Lib Dems and are now disgusted at the lack of right-wing policies. Well, duh?!

    If the Conservative party gets together and decides it wants OUT of the EU, garners a wing-to-wing agreement about it and puts forwards and in/out bill for this parliament, then fair enough, all power to them. But it will end the coalition. And after that, there will be no confidence and supply, so the government will effectively cease to operate properly. And then, to top it all off, they would lose a vote in parliament over offering an in/out referendum because they don't have enough MPs to carry it.

    Ergo, I can see quite clearly why Cameron is doing what he's doing. He's taken the emotion out of it. He's taken ideology out of it. He's just trying to keep the coalition together for a parliament, hoping he'll have an economic story to sell come April 2015, and hopes to win the next GE. After that, he can give his backbenchers the referendum.

    That's what I think anyway, and I'm no Cameron cheerleader. Politics is as much about compromise as it is about ideology. Especially in a democracy as tolerant and subtle and so lacking in extremes as ours.

    Fenster I can agree with all that you have said.

    Some other thoughts. The LD's probably feel that they are in quite a comfortable position. They can agitate against and block any legislation they don't like with the knowledge that this stance puts them more in the labour camp and more attractive as a coalition partner after the next GE. I think they have already discounted the possibility of a Tory major party after the GE and are therefore positioning themselves to stay with some fingernails on the reins of power.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    TOPPING said:

    A serving VC in a unit actually becomes quite complicated. He becomes the senior soldier in that unit so everyone from the company commanders to the commanding officer (and then superior officers) have to defer to him at each point. It would make running that unit on a day-to-day basis not at all straightforward.

    Certainly not the case. Many VC holders have served in their units without difficulty. LCpl Beharry serves to this day.

    On a day to day basis in the British armed forces the holder of a VC enjoys no seniority outside of their rank. It has become a custom, although not in QR's for a VC holder to receive a salute from any rank. A similar situation occurs in the US armed forces with Medal of Honour holders of which there are many more surviving members and some still serving.

  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    GIN1138 said:

    I wonder, in what way is an horrific beheading of a solider in the middle of a London street an "opportunity" for Cameron?

    What on earth is Lord Ashcroft talking about?

    I agree, it's absolutely disgusting that Ashcroft's first thought is how to make political capital out of this awful business.

    No wonder the British people are sick to the back teeth of politicians.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    Yesturday's events mean that it will be harder to impose the next round of defence and security cuts.

    It is inevitable that at some point actual cuts will need to be made in the big sacred cows of health, education and welfare. Whether that happens before or after 2015 remains to be seen but politically it wont be popular.

    Meanwhile events in Japan show yet again that you can't fix a solvency crisis with extra liquidity. The extra liquidity merely acts as a drug while the fundamental problem worsens.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314
    Patrick said:

    A VC is indeed next to impossible to get and live. Beharry is the only such recipient of a British VC since 1965.

    Really? I defer to your better knowledge, but do you count Keith Payne in 1969? Then again, only 13 have been awarded since the end of WWII.

    (I might be thinking of a few of the Australian and New Zealanders who have won the Australian and New Zealand VCs since 1991).
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    And did I hear EdM yesturday condemning people who engaged in complicated arrangements to avoid paying tax ?

    Perhaps he'd like to put his inheritance tax planning history up for public perusal.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    GIN1138 said:

    I wonder, in what way is an horrific beheading of a solider in the middle of a London street an "opportunity" for Cameron?

    What on earth is Lord Ashcroft talking about?

    I agree, it's absolutely disgusting that Ashcroft's first thought is how to make political capital out of this awful business.

    No wonder the British people are sick to the back teeth of politicians.

    I agree - what did strike me yesterday was the look on Cameron's face during that press conf with Hollande, he appeared grim and wished he didn't have to be there at all with such a horror on our door-step.

    That it was *only one soldier* is missing the point of it all - it was an execution of the most vile kind,on a public st in the middle of the afternoon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Small chance of rain on Saturday, but today and Sunday should be dry.
  • Arthur_PennyArthur_Penny Posts: 198
    JohnLoony said:

    DavidL said:

    For those interested in such things a history of negative numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_number#History

    It is interesting for the purposes of this thread that through most of history negative numbers have been thought "absurd" and results requiring them ignored.

    Talking of numbers, there is an interesting development about prime numbers here:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10073042/Prime-number-breakthrough-by-unknown-professor.html
    I am confused because, if the report is accurate, then it would mean that the conjecture has been proved - not merely that it has been shown to be more likely.

    "Mathematicians have long theorised that there is an infinite number of twin primes [...] but have never been able to prove it.
    Dr Zhang took a major step towards doing so, however, by demonstrating that no matter how large a twin prime is, there will always be another pair of primes separated from it by less than 70 million.
    Although his paper does not conclusively show that there is an infinite number of twin primes, it effectively proves that the gaps between prime pairs does not keep on growing to an infinite size."

    The conjecture does not state that there is another set of twin primes within 70 million of a twin prime but that there is another 'pair of primes'. Presumably this means that there are always going to be two more primes within 70 million of a twin prime - the gap between them need not be two.

    It is of course quite easy to work out a region of numbers where there are no primes for 70 million successive numbers. (multiply all the prime numbers less than 70 million together and then add 2 - proof left to student) - however this is not a contra-example to the proof since there is no evidence that this number -1 and this number -3 are twin primes.

    if this is not clear, consider 2 * 3 * 5 * 7 = 210. This caters for all numbers less than 11

    211 is either prime or divisible by primes greater than 7 (Euclid)
    212 divides by 2
    213 divides by 3
    214 divides by 2
    215 divides by 5
    216 divides by 6
    217 divides by 7
    218 divides by 2
    219 divides by 3
    220 divides by 10
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    @another_richard

    Your desire for "discipline" is noted. Pass your details onto "Peter the Punter" for appropriate enforcement.

    What do you suggest as a safe word ?

    Is 'Louise' still used or would 'Mensch' now be more fashionable ?

    I'm clearly not as familiar with this scene as you but perhaps your safe word should be "Farage"

  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    GIN1138 said:

    I wonder, in what way is an horrific beheading of a solider in the middle of a London street an "opportunity" for Cameron?

    What on earth is Lord Ashcroft talking about?

    Very poor taste. Nobody should be commenting in that way. It is right and proper for the Government to hold COBRA type meetings, to make sure they are doing everything necessary, but this would be the same, whoever was in Government anyway. What they have to be careful of, is not allowing too much information to be leaked into the press. Any investigations being carried out need to done securely, so that the Police, security services and prosecution authorities can do their jobs as effectively as possible.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Patrick said:

    A VC is indeed next to impossible to get and live. Beharry is the only such recipient of a British VC since 1965.

    Really? I defer to your better knowledge, but do you count Keith Payne in 1969? Then again, only 13 have been awarded since the end of WWII.

    (I might be thinking of a few of the Australian and New Zealanders who have won the Australian and New Zealand VCs since 1991).
    Keith Payne is an Australian VC for action in the Vietnam war :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Payne

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited May 2013
    Markit Economics @MarkitEconomics
    EZ GDP and Comp #PMI compared. Recession seems to be extending into Q2 twitpic.com/csk35v

    https://twitpic.com/show/full/csk35v
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    edited May 2013
    JackW said:

    TOPPING said:

    A serving VC in a unit actually becomes quite complicated. He becomes the senior soldier in that unit so everyone from the company commanders to the commanding officer (and then superior officers) have to defer to him at each point. It would make running that unit on a day-to-day basis not at all straightforward.

    Certainly not the case. Many VC holders have served in their units without difficulty. LCpl Beharry serves to this day.

    On a day to day basis in the British armed forces the holder of a VC enjoys no seniority outside of their rank. It has become a custom, although not in QR's for a VC holder to receive a salute from any rank. A similar situation occurs in the US armed forces with Medal of Honour holders of which there are many more surviving members and some still serving.

    Of all the things I thought I would be discussing this morning, behaviour of a unit towards a VC holder wasn't one of them.

    Suffice to say that it would make it quite complicated on a day-to-day in barracks or public duties situation.

    On the battlefield/in wartime/on operations it is a different kettle of badgers.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited May 2013
    ;^ )

    JIHADISTS said the idea of a woman being in charge of young males in uniform was driving them crazy.

    As cub scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett stood in for the police in Woolwich yesterday, militant Islamists said she was ‘probably a symbol of western depravity, or something’.

    Ahmed Tareen, from the Peshawar branch of Al Qaeda, said: “It shows just how low your society has sunk when a woman can be cheeky to a brave jihadist in a public street and then tell young men what to do, as if they were little girls.

    “In jihadist philosophy the woggle is a symbol of man’s dominion over woman.

    “Then again, if your men were like this I suppose everything might be different. Tareen then sat under a tree for half an hour before adding: “No, I’ve thought about it, and it is clear that this woman is insolent and disgusting.

    “And she was wearing what I think you call a ‘body-warmer’. She may as well have been naked. You live in a sewer.”

    “I don’t know. I’m really confused now. Tareen then paused and said: “But actually, d’you know what? I could really do with someone as calm and sensible as that in my life. ” http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/idea-of-female-cub-scout-leader-is-doing-al-qaedas-head-in-2013052369726
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314
    JackW said:

    Patrick said:

    A VC is indeed next to impossible to get and live. Beharry is the only such recipient of a British VC since 1965.

    Really? I defer to your better knowledge, but do you count Keith Payne in 1969? Then again, only 13 have been awarded since the end of WWII.

    (I might be thinking of a few of the Australian and New Zealanders who have won the Australian and New Zealand VCs since 1991).
    Keith Payne is an Australian VC for action in the Vietnam war :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Payne

    But it was before the split, when the VC could be given to all commonwealth soldiers, and hence was awarded by the Queen. In my mind that counts.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    @another_richard

    Your desire for "discipline" is noted. Pass your details onto "Peter the Punter" for appropriate enforcement.

    What do you suggest as a safe word ?

    Is 'Louise' still used or would 'Mensch' now be more fashionable ?

    I'm clearly not as familiar with this scene as you but perhaps your safe word should be "Farage"

    Might be best to leave that to UKIP supporters or perhaps UKIP haters, I'm neither.

    Which word do you use with Matron ;-)
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    This should be worth a 3 pt polling bump for the UKIP

    In most crises - 9/11 and credit crunch are examples - the opinion polls tends to show a rallying of support for the Government. I expect the Tories will receive a temporary polling bump with UKIP and Labour receding.

    The one exception to this was the fuel crisis in 2000, but I think that was because the public held the Government to be responsible for the crisis due to the large increases in fuel duty/lack of a response.

    It is very unlikely that the Government will be blamed for what happened yesterday.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    This should be worth a 3 pt polling bump for the UKIP

    In most crises - 9/11 and credit crunch are examples - the opinion polls tends to show a rallying of support for the Government. I expect the Tories will receive a temporary polling bump with UKIP and Labour receding.

    The one exception to this was the fuel crisis in 2000, but I think that was because the public held the Government to be responsible for the crisis due to the large increases in fuel duty/lack of a response.

    It is very unlikely that the Government will be blamed for what happened yesterday.
    I can however see Kippers getting a bit of a bounce from those who feel that multi-culti in all its forms has tolerated this stuff for far too long by tip-toeing around it.

    As @SeanT noted on FPT, he got shedloads of very angry emails and comments on his DT article about grooming et al - there's still many angry people out there who are understandably very unhappy at what they feel has been a culture of appeasement by many politicians. Whether they are correct or not is neither here nor there as they feel its true.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    On the attack, there's another way that it's dramatically different to a usual attack. As well as the physical nature of it, the attackers deliberately targeted a soldier, then ignored the civilians and then attacked the police.

    They were differentiating between what, in their warped minds, were 'legitimate' targets (people employed by the military/police) and 'illegitimate' targets (people who happen to be wandering past.

    In the past (7/7) terrorist attacks deliberately targeted areas packed with civilians to maximise the death toll.

    The resurgence in Irish terrorism has also closely targeted members of the police and military. I wonder if the shooting outside a barracks in Northern Ireland influenced the tactics of this attack.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    F1: Gary Anderson reckons tyre woe for Mercedes could go away in Monaco.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,509
    Interview with the woman who intervened. I think it's very endearingly British that she was calm in talking to two machete-wielding murderers, but "really annoyed" that her bus was diverted!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account
  • JohnLoony said:


    Talking of numbers, there is an interesting development about prime numbers here:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10073042/Prime-number-breakthrough-by-unknown-professor.html
    I am confused because, if the report is accurate, then it would mean that the conjecture has been proved - not merely that it has been shown to be more likely.

    The report is inaccurate. What's actually been proved is that there's an infinite number primes which are no more than 70 million less than the next prime. See http://simonsfoundation.org/features/science-news/unheralded-mathematician-bridges-the-prime-gap/

    It's thought that by tinkering with the proof, that 70 million can be reduced, possibly down to double digits, but not all the way to two.

    On Woolwich, a significant political impact seems unlikely, because all the major parties are pretty sound on anti-terrorism. At most, the tabloids might be able to find some local councillor willing to say something outrageous, which their party will condemn, but even that would soon blow over.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    On the attack, there's another way that it's dramatically different to a usual attack. As well as the physical nature of it, the attackers deliberately targeted a soldier, then ignored the civilians and then attacked the police.

    They were differentiating between what, in their warped minds, were 'legitimate' targets (people employed by the military/police) and 'illegitimate' targets (people who happen to be wandering past.

    In the past (7/7) terrorist attacks deliberately targeted areas packed with civilians to maximise the death toll.

    The resurgence in Irish terrorism has also closely targeted members of the police and military. I wonder if the shooting outside a barracks in Northern Ireland influenced the tactics of this attack.

    I agree - that they hung around waiting for 20 mins to be shot or captured by the coppers was a new one. As was their willingness to get their message across to bystanders. The tall black chap in the bobble hat was remarkably lucid and articulate - even if he couldn't decide who *we* and *you* are when it came to his target.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    TOPPING said:

    JackW said:

    TOPPING said:

    A serving VC in a unit actually becomes quite complicated. He becomes the senior soldier in that unit so everyone from the company commanders to the commanding officer (and then superior officers) have to defer to him at each point. It would make running that unit on a day-to-day basis not at all straightforward.

    Certainly not the case. Many VC holders have served in their units without difficulty. LCpl Beharry serves to this day.

    On a day to day basis in the British armed forces the holder of a VC enjoys no seniority outside of their rank. It has become a custom, although not in QR's for a VC holder to receive a salute from any rank. A similar situation occurs in the US armed forces with Medal of Honour holders of which there are many more surviving members and some still serving.

    Of all the things I thought I would be discussing this morning, behaviour of a unit towards a VC holder wasn't one of them.

    Suffice to say that it would make it quite complicated on a day-to-day in barracks or public duties situation.

    On the battlefield/in wartime/on operations it is a different kettle of badgers.
    You are quite right Topping. A private with a VC is still a private and has to defer to rank the same as any other soldier. That Officers have to defer to the VC holder in any way (except privately) is a load of baloney. Sometimes a lot of misleading rubbish is espoused on PB.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    On overall coverage of events yesterday - I have to give Sky and ITN the gongs for getting the coverage. I noticed Sky had the Iain Dale intv from LBC with James and Graham - does NInt own LBC or was that just a coincidence?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    James C
    @MotoClark
    Help for Heroes collecting at Piccadilly Circus tube. They're gonna need extra buckets. Amazing response.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Interview with the woman who intervened. I think it's very endearingly British that she was calm in talking to two machete-wielding murderers, but "really annoyed" that her bus was diverted!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account

    "endearingly British"? Come, come Mr Palmer. `Completely crazy, if you ask me. She could have been headless and was damn lucky she wasn't.
  • All of the VC for Australia winners and the sole VC for NZ winner were awarded for actions they survived. The recent UK winner was killed in the action.

    There is the George Cross and George Medal which is for 'bravery not in the face of the enemy', the medal does get awarded to civilians in situations like the one yesterday.

    That's the one thing that reassures me about yesterday: person gets off a bus, tries to do the best they can in the face of, well, carnage.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Patrick said:

    A VC is indeed next to impossible to get and live. Beharry is the only such recipient of a British VC since 1965.

    Really? I defer to your better knowledge, but do you count Keith Payne in 1969? Then again, only 13 have been awarded since the end of WWII.

    (I might be thinking of a few of the Australian and New Zealanders who have won the Australian and New Zealand VCs since 1991).
    Keith Payne is an Australian VC for action in the Vietnam war :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Payne

    But it was before the split, when the VC could be given to all commonwealth soldiers, and hence was awarded by the Queen. In my mind that counts.
    I think we might be at cross purposes. I believe Patrick was originally noting VC's that were British and survived the action.

    Clearly VC's that were awarded before Australia and New Zealand awarded their own were simply VC's as there were no other.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    MikeK said:

    Interview with the woman who intervened. I think it's very endearingly British that she was calm in talking to two machete-wielding murderers, but "really annoyed" that her bus was diverted!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account

    "endearingly British"? Come, come Mr Palmer. `Completely crazy, if you ask me. She could have been headless and was damn lucky she wasn't.
    I wondered at the lady with the wheelie shopper who carried on walking past the man covered in blood and the dead body 10ft from her... I assume Woolwich isn't like this everyday of the week...

    It gave a whole new meaning to Keep Calm and Carry On...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,435
    Patrick said:

    A VC is indeed next to impossible to get and live. Beharry is the only such recipient of a British VC since 1965.


    It is probably not as rare as you think. For a quick example of the 6 VCs awarded to men from my alma mater 3 died in the action they were awarded for and three survived (although one was unfortunately shot by a sniper soon after).


  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Plato said:

    This should be worth a 3 pt polling bump for the UKIP

    In most crises - 9/11 and credit crunch are examples - the opinion polls tends to show a rallying of support for the Government. I expect the Tories will receive a temporary polling bump with UKIP and Labour receding.

    The one exception to this was the fuel crisis in 2000, but I think that was because the public held the Government to be responsible for the crisis due to the large increases in fuel duty/lack of a response.

    It is very unlikely that the Government will be blamed for what happened yesterday.
    I can however see Kippers getting a bit of a bounce from those who feel that multi-culti in all its forms has tolerated this stuff for far too long by tip-toeing around it.

    As @SeanT noted on FPT, he got shedloads of very angry emails and comments on his DT article about grooming et al - there's still many angry people out there who are understandably very unhappy at what they feel has been a culture of appeasement by many politicians. Whether they are correct or not is neither here nor there as they feel its true.
    That might happen in the longer-term, over weeks and months as more details about this attack are reported in the press, and when the trial happens.

    My expectation is that in the immediate aftermath of the event itself, over the next few days, they'll be a certain amount of instinctive rallying to the flag which will express itself as a polling bump for the Government.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    MoD tells soldiers not to wear uniform in public until further notice. I can understand this but its a terrible indictment that our forces feel the need to hide what they do because of this.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I blame Osborne

    ONS @statisticsONS
    #GDP grew 0.3% in Q1 2013, unrevised from previous estimate bit.ly/12LCWGg
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,693
    Patrick said:

    IMHO a gong of some sort is appropriate but not a GC. A GC is the civilian equivalent of a VC - which are next to impossible to get other than posthumously. If you look at the actions of previous GC winners I do not think, for all the evident bravery of talking to an armed killer, that this is a GC. Maybe a QGM.

    I'd agree with that. Without diminishing what she did, which took a hell of a lot of guts, I don't think it's quite to the GC level. Perhaps had someone tried to tackle them unarmed while they were carrying out the crime, it might have qualified for the highest available award.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Plato said:

    MoD tells soldiers not to wear uniform in public until further notice. I can understand this but its a terrible indictment that our forces feel the need to hide what they do because of this.

    Indeed. Which is why I think it's very important our soldiers know the rest of the country is standing with them at this time. I think a donation to Help for Heroes of whatever people can afford is the clearest way of doing that.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Sky Sources: #Woolwich murder suspects are both British and at least one is of Nigerian descent
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    TOPPING said:

    JackW said:

    TOPPING said:

    A serving VC in a unit actually becomes quite complicated. He becomes the senior soldier in that unit so everyone from the company commanders to the commanding officer (and then superior officers) have to defer to him at each point. It would make running that unit on a day-to-day basis not at all straightforward.

    Certainly not the case. Many VC holders have served in their units without difficulty. LCpl Beharry serves to this day.

    On a day to day basis in the British armed forces the holder of a VC enjoys no seniority outside of their rank. It has become a custom, although not in QR's for a VC holder to receive a salute from any rank. A similar situation occurs in the US armed forces with Medal of Honour holders of which there are many more surviving members and some still serving.

    Of all the things I thought I would be discussing this morning, behaviour of a unit towards a VC holder wasn't one of them.

    Suffice to say that it would make it quite complicated on a day-to-day in barracks or public duties situation.

    On the battlefield/in wartime/on operations it is a different kettle of badgers.
    I simply do not see the difficulty. VC's have served in peace and war without any problems with their superiors in rank. Perhaps you might gives examples or indeed cite a holder who found it so ??

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    Tommy Gould VC won the Victoria Cross for crawling on his belly with a german bomb to offload it from his submarine, where it had become wedged.

    "The VCs were awarded on the recommendation of the C-in-C Mediterranean, Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, but were opposed by the Honours and Awards Committee in London, which argued that the acts of bravery had not been performed in the presence of the enemy, as VC Warrants stipulated, and that the George Cross would be more appropriate. Cunningham, however, retorted that two large enemy bombs, in a submarine off an enemy coastline, constituted quite enough enemy presence."

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Now here's something that makes a provocative point - I can see why it makes sense to some.

    Ben @00mydriatic
    In 2012 lefties justified a week of rioting after a gangster was shot by police, but today vilify 150 protesters after a street beheading
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2013
    Folllowing Plato's link to the Daily Mash, they've done another:

    Men in Balaclavas Offer Soothing Prospect of War

    Professor Henry Brubaker said: “History, and also common sense, tells us that in any situation the person whose features are disguised by a stupid hat is not the person you should listen to.

    “In fact masks in general, whether tight-fitting on part of a white pointy hat, are a good indicator of insanity, unless it’s Halloween or you’re at an elite fictional orgy.

    Muslim father-of-two Rafi Ahmed said: “As far as I’m aware, I’ve got no plans to bring Western civilisation to its knees.

    “I’ll probably go to work, come home and eat my tea.”


    They've some very good writers, taking a hideous event and producing two articles that are satirical, funny, and thought-provoking without seeming ghoulish or insensitive.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,405
    The more significant event in the longer term may prove to be the Japanese stock market crash. People calling for ever more stimulus will be chastened.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    edited May 2013
    @MikeK

    I was saying the opposite! At the idiotic risk of continuing this wholly fatuous discussion, I'm not sure about the SOPs in your regiment but in mine the presence of a VC holder in peacetime in barracks would, we speculated, have been a cause of some complication.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034
    Plato said:

    Sky Sources: #Woolwich murder suspects are both British and at least one is of Nigerian descent

    Politically that avoids a can of worms regarding deportation. Black caps out for the judges methinks then.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    MikeK said:

    Interview with the woman who intervened. I think it's very endearingly British that she was calm in talking to two machete-wielding murderers, but "really annoyed" that her bus was diverted!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account

    "endearingly British"? Come, come Mr Palmer. `Completely crazy, if you ask me. She could have been headless and was damn lucky she wasn't.
    That's called courage, not craziness.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @Anorak = absolutely. They can be rather Right-On lefty - but when it comes to non-political events, some are a lot better than PEye.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Socrates said:

    MikeK said:

    Interview with the woman who intervened. I think it's very endearingly British that she was calm in talking to two machete-wielding murderers, but "really annoyed" that her bus was diverted!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account

    "endearingly British"? Come, come Mr Palmer. `Completely crazy, if you ask me. She could have been headless and was damn lucky she wasn't.
    That's called courage, not craziness.
    Isn't courage walking into the lion's den knowing what the consequences could be - and doing it anyway in an attempt to save others by potentially sacrificing yourself in the process?

    That'd be my definition - not crazy at all.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    tim said:

    Fraser Nelson ‏@frasernelson
    Eyewitness to the beheading, amazing tweets: RT @BOYADEE: Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3.

    Saw this quote yesterday. Top 3???!

    At least he cant be accused of hysterical overreaction

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Plato said:

    MoD tells soldiers not to wear uniform in public until further notice. I can understand this but its a terrible indictment that our forces feel the need to hide what they do because of this.

    The currant MOD is a pathetic organisation.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    ONS: UK net migration has fallen to 153,000 for the year to September 2012. itv.co/10myZbA
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034
    Amazing just how close she got:

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67764000/jpg/_67764726_woolwich.jpg definitely worth a medal. Selfless actions to save others.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    TOPPING said:

    @MikeK

    I was saying the opposite! At the idiotic risk of continuing this wholly fatuous discussion, I'm not sure about the SOPs in your regiment but in mine the presence of a VC holder in peacetime in barracks would, we speculated, have been a cause of some complication.

    Not in my day. But in my day we still had conscription and still had an army.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034
    isam said:

    tim said:

    Fraser Nelson ‏@frasernelson
    Eyewitness to the beheading, amazing tweets: RT @BOYADEE: Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3.

    Saw this quote yesterday. Top 3???!

    At least he cant be accused of hysterical overreaction

    Classic British understatement ;)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That 153k net migration stats according to R5 that's about 50% LESS than the previous period.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314
    MikeK said:

    Plato said:

    MoD tells soldiers not to wear uniform in public until further notice. I can understand this but its a terrible indictment that our forces feel the need to hide what they do because of this.

    The currant MOD is a pathetic organisation.
    I agree. I much prefer the sultana MOD, which tastes much better in porridge.
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