Obviously the attack was more brutal and in daylight and intended to provoke a public response but I cant help being struck by the difference in reaction to the tragic events yesterday and the even worse events at Massereene a few years ago (where the Real IRA managed to justify attempting to murder pizza delivery workers on the grounds that they were servicing the occupiers). I dont remember the same introspection about what to do with Irish people in the UK after that attack even though they remain as much of a threat to British armed forces as muslims.
And even though the Real IRA has an astonishing record of brutal murder of innocent civilians and service personnel I dont remember a COBRA meeting being convened in the aftermath (though that might be down to my poor memory).
I'm not one to provoke, but no wonder extremists hate Britain when argumentative young white girls go walking the streets of their home towns with nothing on. Tut, tut*
*It's doing the rounds of Facebook. She's quite brave actually!
Good on her. She has done quite a few documentariesw for BBC4 on thjese kinds of issues. She dids a great series on the effect that long-term austerity is having on people in various parts of the world. I wish I could remember her name. But I do fear she may be a leftie!
Obviously the attack was more brutal and in daylight and intended to provoke a public response but I cant help being struck by the difference in reaction to the tragic events yesterday and the even worse events at Massereene a few years ago (where the Real IRA managed to justify attempting to murder pizza delivery workers on the grounds that they were servicing the occupiers). I dont remember the same introspection about what to do with Irish people in the UK after that attack even though they remain as much of a threat to British armed forces as muslims.
And even though the Real IRA has an astonishing record of brutal murder of innocent civilians and service personnel I dont remember a COBRA meeting being convened in the aftermath (though that might be down to my poor memory).
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
Sean Fear of this parish and Luton will be able to furnish us with the full SP but to my mind Luton is an odd place - leafy, pleasing and neighbourly in areas but also with a quiet menace about it.
The fnic communities are hugely diverse like many around the nation but I'd have to say the town has also attracted a small minority of radicals with highly vocal hatemongers among them that ensure an underlying tension in town is all too often prevalent.
Obviously the attack was more brutal and in daylight and intended to provoke a public response but I cant help being struck by the difference in reaction to the tragic events yesterday and the even worse events at Massereene a few years ago (where the Real IRA managed to justify attempting to murder pizza delivery workers on the grounds that they were servicing the occupiers). I dont remember the same introspection about what to do with Irish people in the UK after that attack even though they remain as much of a threat to British armed forces as muslims.
And even though the Real IRA has an astonishing record of brutal murder of innocent civilians and service personnel I dont remember a COBRA meeting being convened in the aftermath (though that might be down to my poor memory).
TBH, I think the mainland media has turned a blind-eye to NI issues for as long as I can recall. Only when it bled literally onto Warrington or Canary Wharf et al did it get the coverage it deserved.
The recent rioting barely got a mention whilst the London version was wall to wall. NI's semi-detached relationship has made a huge difference to how its reported.
I dont remember the same introspection about what to do with Irish people in the UK after that attack even though they remain as much of a threat to British armed forces as muslims.
Because the vast majority of Irish people are integrated well into the UK and extreme views among them are very rare.
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
There's that too.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
Obviously the attack was more brutal and in daylight and intended to provoke a public response but I cant help being struck by the difference in reaction to the tragic events yesterday and the even worse events at Massereene a few years ago (where the Real IRA managed to justify attempting to murder pizza delivery workers on the grounds that they were servicing the occupiers). I dont remember the same introspection about what to do with Irish people in the UK after that attack even though they remain as much of a threat to British armed forces as muslims.
And even though the Real IRA has an astonishing record of brutal murder of innocent civilians and service personnel I dont remember a COBRA meeting being convened in the aftermath (though that might be down to my poor memory).
And you won't get people on here trying to claim that the Real IRA and their fellow travellers represent "huge masses of Irish people" as Socrates does with Choudhary's mob.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
I dont remember the same introspection about what to do with Irish people in the UK after that attack even though they remain as much of a threat to British armed forces as muslims.
Because the vast majority of Irish people are integrated well into the UK and extreme views among them are very rare.
what's the point in being Irish if you can't have extreme views ?
I'm not one to provoke, but no wonder extremists hate Britain when argumentative young white girls go walking the streets of their home towns with nothing on. Tut, tut*
*It's doing the rounds of Facebook. She's quite brave actually!
Good on her. She has done quite a few documentariesw for BBC4 on thjese kinds of issues. She dids a great series on the effect that long-term austerity is having on people in various parts of the world. I wish I could remember her name. But I do fear she may be a leftie!
Of course she's a leftie - you can tell that from her comments saying wearing the niqab is fine, even when it's clearly a step back for women's equality. You don't think the BBC would ever allow a conservative to make a documentary on this sort of stuff, do you?
Mr. Dugarbandier, calling for their own country, and for the police of that country, to burn in hell is absolutely shocking and unacceptable, as was their suggestion that the young presenter was practically naked and looking to seduce someone because she had the temerity to bare more skin than someone wearing a burkha.
I was going to work in London on the 100 Bus a few years ago and the only other person on there was a lady wearing a Burqa. I got talking to her about it and asked some pretty inane questions like " Why do you have to wear it?" "How do your kids recognise you when you pick them up from school?".. she said her husband wouldnt want any other man to see her but him and that she didnt wear it at home, and the kids "just knew".. I wasnt convinced by that second answer, but still..... I said "What an other man was to say you had beautiful eyes, would you have to wear sunglasses?"... and she laughed & said it would never happen! I must say I thought I wouldnt get a word out of her and she would be angry with me for asking but she seemed like a normal friendly person, albeit one being bothered by a stranger on a bus
Looking at the other side of the coin for a moment. I wonder what would have happened in luton if a couple of EDL's has chopped up an imman in broad daylight then hung around chatting to people waiting for the police to arrive.
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
There's that too.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
I think the issue is that NI terrorism has largely been forgotten now - it was enormous when I was younger, nowadays it tends to be restricted to a lack of litter bins in case someone sticks a pipebomb in one.
If we transported ourselves back to the 70s and early 80s - and added in Islamists - the reaction would be different.
Because the vast majority of Irish people are integrated well into the UK and extreme views among them are very rare.
Irish terrorism is about as much of a threat as muslim terrorism (generally speaking - these things ebb and flow so one may be more of a risk than another at any time). But some people use muslim terrorism as an excuse to go on about other aspects of muslim life in the UK whereas they dont use Irish terrorism to go on about the Irish because they dont have an underlying, pre-existing agenda about that community in the same way.
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
There's that too.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
It's not generalising. You can look at the opinion polls.
When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."
Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
There's that too.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
well maybe, but go back pre-GFA and you would have a set of circumstances where the old style provos had more support and had demonstrations in numerous towns in the UK and Ireland.
Watcher, the only whack-job was the false event. The quality control for false flag terror has reached pathetic levels. You should be ashamed of yourself propagating all this rubbish.
Looking at the other side of the coin for a moment. I wonder what would have happened in luton if a couple of EDL's has chopped up an imman in broad daylight then hung around chatting to people waiting for the police to arrive.
A PB thread would've filled up with people blaming Somalis?
Be fair, people, myself included, were only reacting to what was all over twitter, and I dont think anyone said anything derogatory about Somalian people as a whole... I did say there were lots of Somali gangs in Woolwich, and there are, but you are making it sound like everyone was saying "typical Somalians" which no one did.
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
There's that too.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
It's not generalising. You can look at the opinion polls.
When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."
Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.
There is an element of the *enemy within* re Islam - many spokesbods seem to want to fundamentally change the UK into something culturally very different.
NI Catholics and Prods didn't - they were fighting over territory in what to me never made any sense at all. That was narrow sectarianism rather than an all out assault on our national laws and cultural identity.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
In Britain? Can you link me? Obviously in Northern Ireland support for terrorism was often quite common, but there was certainly lots of discussion about the integration of the different communities there.
well maybe, but go back pre-GFA and you would have a set of circumstances where the old style provos had more support and had demonstrations in numerous towns in the UK and Ireland.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
Looking at the other side of the coin for a moment. I wonder what would have happened in luton if a couple of EDL's has chopped up an imman in broad daylight then hung around chatting to people waiting for the police to arrive.
A PB thread would've filled up with people blaming Somalis?
Be fair, people, myself included, were only reacting to what was all over twitter, and I dont think anyone said anything derogatory about Somalian people as a whole... I did say there were lots of Somali gangs in Woolwich, and there are, but you are making it sound like everyone was saying "typical Somalians" which no one did.
tim regularly makes up claims about what other people said, often involving racism, as a way to smear them. When challenged, he never corrects himself or takes it back. I'm surprised it continues to be tolerated. Presumably he has incriminating photos of some of the moderators.
Because the vast majority of Irish people are integrated well into the UK and extreme views among them are very rare.
Irish terrorism is about as much of a threat as muslim terrorism (generally speaking - these things ebb and flow so one may be more of a risk than another at any time). But some people use muslim terrorism as an excuse to go on about other aspects of muslim life in the UK whereas they dont use Irish terrorism to go on about the Irish because they dont have an underlying, pre-existing agenda about that community in the same way.
Thats true, but the reason for it is probably that if there were a huge influx of Irish people in a town in England, the culture would be almost indistinguishable from the one that existed previously. Thats not the case when there is mass immigration of muslims into a town.
So of course all terrorists are bad and unrepresentative of their greater community, but when that community is very different to the pre existing one, the differences are exaggerated.
Also many "white British" have Irish ancestry whereas few have muslim ancestry. There is bound to be a bias.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
There is of course the infamous footage of a well known and unpopular Tory at a sectarian event - it appears to have disappeared from YouTube...
I had the misfortune to bump into John Hurt in a pub a few years ago as he held court in the belief he held the torch for a certain community - and then we learned recently that he hasn't an Irish bone in his body - "Genealogists cannot prove any link between John's family and the Marquis of Sligo - nor can they find any ancestry in Ireland. Disappointed, John explains that his feelings about Ireland as his homeland have altered." http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/john-hurt.shtml
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
And not just in London. There were people in the NF who used it, as people in the EDL and on PB use Islamist extremism to peddle their agenda, but the British people are too sensible to fall for it.
alexmassie @alexmassie 15h London will be fine. Why? Because it is London and its people are not fools.
Hmmmm.... he seems to have forgotten about August 2011.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
In Britain? Can you link me? Obviously in Northern Ireland support for terrorism was often quite common, but there was certainly lots of discussion about the integration of the different communities there.
I'm not one to provoke, but no wonder extremists hate Britain when argumentative young white girls go walking the streets of their home towns with nothing on. Tut, tut*
*It's doing the rounds of Facebook. She's quite brave actually!
Good on her. She has done quite a few documentariesw for BBC4 on thjese kinds of issues. She dids a great series on the effect that long-term austerity is having on people in various parts of the world. I wish I could remember her name. But I do fear she may be a leftie!
Of course she's a leftie - you can tell that from her comments saying wearing the niqab is fine, even when it's clearly a step back for women's equality. You don't think the BBC would ever allow a conservative to make a documentary on this sort of stuff, do you?
Why not? They give plenty of air time for right wingers to make other types of documentary.
There is an element of the *enemy within* re Islam - many spokesbods seem to want to fundamentally change the UK into something culturally very different.
NI Catholics and Prods didn't - they were fighting over territory in what to me never made any sense at all. That was narrow sectarianism rather than an all out assault on our national laws and cultural identity.
Thanks for illustrating my point, Plato.
Some people dont like some aspects of how some muslims live in the UK. So they are happy to conflate muslim terrorism (a practice carried out by about as many muslims as Irish people participated in republican groups) with a wider threat to the life of the UK presented by the muslim community itself. In this way they get to argue against a way of life they dont like by linking it to a security threat that has to be tackled. It wasnt done in the case of the Irish because few people had similar problems with the way Irish people chose to live their lives.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
The general public goes to pubs.
You should try out Parkhead on a Saturday afternoon as well.
Thats true, but the reason for it is probably that if there were a huge influx of Irish people in a town in England, the culture would be almost indistinguishable from the one that existed previously. Thats not the case when there is mass immigration of muslims into a town.
Indeed - the underlying problem some people have is with muslims even more than terrorism.
I mean how long did it take after the news of a gruesome murder for some people to start to make political points about multiculturalism?
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
Happened to me in a pub in Kilburn in the early '90s. I was a student at the time, just there visiting a friend, when a man arrived with a bucket, expecting a contribution. It was made very clear that donating wasn't optional.
I was quite disturbed by the whole event: effectively robbed under threat of violence, in the middle of the day, in an otherwise friendly pub. That this was viewed by all present as somehow normal made matters rather worse.
Looking at the other side of the coin for a moment. I wonder what would have happened in luton if a couple of EDL's has chopped up an imman in broad daylight then hung around chatting to people waiting for the police to arrive.
A PB thread would've filled up with people blaming Somalis?
Can anyone watch that video and not believe this young woman's home town has been wrecked by mass immigration? That may be a minority of Muslims marching to the sound of "UK go to hell", but it's certainly not a tiny one. They are barbaric savages with no appreciation of morality or decency. Where are the establishment politicians speaking out about rallies like this? Nowhere. They prefer to turn a blind eye so as not to raise tension, just as the police turned a blind eye to Muslim men raping white children.
Anjem Choudary's mob turn up in a town, and somewhere on the internet someone reacts exactly as they were meant to. Exactly how some did last night.
And the EDL don't represent British culture either.
Are you claiming most of those marching aren't from Luton?
I doubt it very much given that Choudary's mob AKA Islam4UK, Al Ghurabaa, the Saved Sect has a few hundred supporters who like marching around a lot.
Looking at the other side of the coin for a moment. I wonder what would have happened in luton if a couple of EDL's has chopped up an imman in broad daylight then hung around chatting to people waiting for the police to arrive.
A PB thread would've filled up with people blaming Somalis?
Be fair, people, myself included, were only reacting to what was all over twitter, and I dont think anyone said anything derogatory about Somalian people as a whole... I did say there were lots of Somali gangs in Woolwich, and there are, but you are making it sound like everyone was saying "typical Somalians" which no one did.
tim regularly makes up claims about what other people said, often involving racism, as a way to smear them. When challenged, he never corrects himself or takes it back. I'm surprised it continues to be tolerated. Presumably he has incriminating photos of some of the moderators.
Oh dear. Back to claiming that Anjem Choudary has ""huge masses of British people" behind him for you. If ever there was a made up claim that's it.
I would say hundreds of people on a march is a huge mass of people. It's certainly a more accurate description than the number of British people living in other EU countries being "millions". And there have been other marches where thousands have marched against free speech, for instance.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
Chris Deerin @chrisdeerin Here we go... RT Both #Woolwich suspects were known to MI5 and the police, Whitehall sources have confirmed via @WhiteheadTom
Sean Fear of this parish and Luton will be able to furnish us with the full SP but to my mind Luton is an odd place - leafy, pleasing and neighbourly in areas but also with a quiet menace about it.
The fnic communities are hugely diverse like many around the nation but I'd have to say the town has also attracted a small minority of radicals with highly vocal hatemongers among them that ensure an underlying tension in town is all too often prevalent.
I've walked through Luton and its environs on a fair few occasions (a branch of the Icknield Way passes nearby). It's obviously an ethnically diverse area and poor in places, but I sensed no problems, although the last time was six years ago.
However: one Saturday afternoon about eight years ago, I was walking to Luton station after a walk. It was a sunny day and the centre was bustling. As I passed under a rail bridge a fairly unkempt-looking woman asked me if I wanted a blow job. She was asian, petite, and looked really manky, if you pardon the expression.
I've walked all over the country and never once had a prostitute approach me like that. I had a rucksack on my back and was sweaty after my walk, so I guess she wasn't too picky. ;-)
There was plenty of support for PIRA in NI in the right ("wrong"!) areas. There was plenty of support for PIRA in the UK.
A difference in attitude between then and now might be that the nationalist/loyalist conflict was in essence a civil war between two peoples of the same race.
The current wave of terrorism is between, literally, "us" and "them" where although there are converts, the sides are more clearly definable as indigenous and endogenous so emotions and reactions differ accordingly.
Plus as has been pointed out, PIRA at least all wanted to come out of an op alive so they were, in a way, "ordinary decent terrorists". It is one of the loudest refrains from fanatical islamists that we westerners are too much in love with life whereas they crave death. That does our head in a bit.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
Happened to me in a pub in Kilburn in the early '90s. I was a student at the time, just there visiting a friend, when a man arrived with a bucket, expecting a contribution. It was made very clear that donating wasn't optional.
I was quite disturbed by the whole event: effectively robbed under threat of violence, in the middle of the day, in an otherwise friendly pub. That this was viewed by all present as somehow normal made matters rather worse.
It was absolutely normal, but at least in the pubs we went to in Archway there was not any trouble if you said no. They may have had a more mixed clientele than the ones in Kilburn though.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
Sean Fear of this parish and Luton will be able to furnish us with the full SP but to my mind Luton is an odd place - leafy, pleasing and neighbourly in areas but also with a quiet menace about it.
The fnic communities are hugely diverse like many around the nation but I'd have to say the town has also attracted a small minority of radicals with highly vocal hatemongers among them that ensure an underlying tension in town is all too often prevalent.
I've walked through Luton and its environs on a fair few occasions (a branch of the Icknield Way passes nearby). It's obviously an ethnically diverse area and poor in places, but I sensed no problems, although the last time was six years ago.
However: one Saturday afternoon about eight years ago, I was walking to Luton station after a walk. It was a sunny day and the centre was bustling. As I passed under a rail bridge a fairly unkempt-looking woman asked me if I wanted a blow job. She was asian, petite, and looked really manky, if you pardon the expression.
I've walked all over the country and never once had a prostitute approach me like that. I had a rucksack on my back and was sweaty after my walk, so I guess she wasn't too picky. ;-)
And yes, I refused.
I actually found it quite unutterably sad.
That sounds really grim - there are a handful of places where I've felt really uncomfortable/look over my shoulder - and they've been Luton, Shoreditch, Stratford and Whitechapel. Colindale almost made the grade.
I come from a really rough bit of Newcastle where we experienced a ram-raid to my Dad's shop [that we lived over] in the early 80s and were regularly burgled, so I've no illusions about crime or violence - the threatening tone of those places were off the scale re me personally as a white female. I lived in Peckham and Camberwell and never felt like this once.
There was plenty of support for PIRA in NI in the right ("wrong"!) areas. There was plenty of support for PIRA in the UK.
A difference in attitude between then and now might be that the nationalist/loyalist conflict was in essence a civil war between two peoples of the same race.
The current wave of terrorism is between, literally, "us" and "them" where although there are converts, the sides are more clearly definable as indigenous and endogenous so emotions and reactions differ accordingly.
Plus as has been pointed out, PIRA at least all wanted to come out of an op alive so they were, in a way, "ordinary decent terrorists". It is one of the loudest refrains from fanatical islamists that we westerners are too much in love with life whereas they crave death. That does our head in a bit.
The better way to look at NI is a conflict between the Irish ( catholics ) and the Scots ( prods ) where no-one can agree on anything except that it's all the english fault.
Fortunatley english politicians just can't wait to line up and issue mea culpas and apologies.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
Happened to me in a pub in Kilburn in the early '90s. I was a student at the time, just there visiting a friend, when a man arrived with a bucket, expecting a contribution. It was made very clear that donating wasn't optional.
I was quite disturbed by the whole event: effectively robbed under threat of violence, in the middle of the day, in an otherwise friendly pub. That this was viewed by all present as somehow normal made matters rather worse.
It was absolutely normal, but at least in the pubs we went to in Archway there was not any trouble if you said no. They may have had a more mixed clientele than the ones in Kilburn though.
I was a naive student and had grown up in a northern market town, so London in itself was pretty exotic at the time - I may have read more into the situation than I should have.
That said, to me the air of menace was palpable, and was accompanied by some frantic elbowing from my friend indicating I really should comply. Thankfully I was not the sort of student to get on my high horse over such things!
LOL I used to get english people telling me I had no right to live in my own country ; it was certainly a novel approach.
It must have been useful as a w*nker detector at least, Alanbrooke.
I once told the son of a Maze escapee (I only found out afterwards who he was) where he could stuff his collection for "political prisoners". It ended up being quite the ballroom blitz!
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
I used to detest those people. The middle class SWPers with their IRA posters on the walls. Absolutely sickening.
LOL I used to get english people telling me I had no right to live in my own country ; it was certainly a novel approach.
The very epitome of self-indulgent, capitalist living. Nothing beats the far left for complete sanctimonious bollocks. The head of the SWP at my uni used to be picked up at the end of each term from the house her Dad had bought her in a car sent by her Dad and driven by a chauffeur. In terms of lack of self awareness it was just off the charts. And when you pointed it out they called you a fascist. If it wasn't for the romanticising of terrorism and murder it would all have been rather amusing.
Thats true, but the reason for it is probably that if there were a huge influx of Irish people in a town in England, the culture would be almost indistinguishable from the one that existed previously. Thats not the case when there is mass immigration of muslims into a town.
Indeed - the underlying problem some people have is with muslims even more than terrorism.
I mean how long did it take after the news of a gruesome murder for some people to start to make political points about multiculturalism?
Not long, then again I dont think seemingly born and bred Londoners beheading a Brirish soldier in the name of Allah and "our lands" is a particular a feather in the cap for multiculturalism.
We can pontificate, we will see what the public make of it in time
LOL I used to get english people telling me I had no right to live in my own country ; it was certainly a novel approach.
It must have been useful as a w*nker detector at least, Alanbrooke.
I once told the son of a Maze escapee (I only found out afterwards who he was) where he could stuff his collection for "political prisoners". It ended up being quite the ballroom blitz!
I used to get it from the other side to, "loyalist" collection. The DUP progressively annoyed me since they were forever latching themselves on to the nutters and then legging it when things got nasty saying nothing to do with us.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
Happened to me in a pub in Kilburn in the early '90s. I was a student at the time, just there visiting a friend, when a man arrived with a bucket, expecting a contribution. It was made very clear that donating wasn't optional.
I was quite disturbed by the whole event: effectively robbed under threat of violence, in the middle of the day, in an otherwise friendly pub. That this was viewed by all present as somehow normal made matters rather worse.
It was absolutely normal, but at least in the pubs we went to in Archway there was not any trouble if you said no. They may have had a more mixed clientele than the ones in Kilburn though.
I was a naive student and had grown up in a northern market town, so London in itself was pretty exotic at the time - I may have read more into the situation than I should have.
That said, to me the air of menace was palpable, and was accompanied by some frantic elbowing from my friend indicating I really should comply. Thankfully I was not the sort of student to get on my high horse over such things!
The atmosphere in those pubs could be very nasty. And you knew there were people in there who knew people. Nothing like the real thing, of course, but definitely intimidating. However, if you grew up where I did then half your mates at least had family from one part of Ireland or another, so it never seemed as bad as it might have done.
Clegg and Tommy Robinson of the EDL are on LBC after 1pm - not at the same time... IIRC Mr Robinson made quite a charlie out of Paxo a couple of yrs ago so be interesting to see how he does against Ms Hartley-Brewer who's no numpty.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
I used to detest those people. The middle class SWPers with their IRA posters on the walls. Absolutely sickening.
They'd crap themselves if they ever went to the Bogside. Although the Unionist terrorists had a few reliable fundraising supporters around the country too.
No doubt about it. But I never saw that side of things.
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
I used to detest those people. The middle class SWPers with their IRA posters on the walls. Absolutely sickening.
They'd crap themselves if they ever went to the Bogside. Although the Unionist terrorists had a few reliable fundraising supporters around the country too.
The loyalist raised most of theirs through drugs. By the late 1980 they had carved out their dealing territories and where happily trading drugs and arms with the republicans. The INLA eventually worried more about drugs than politics.
"The murder of a British serviceman in daylight on a London street, in plain view, is one of the single most shocking new stories of recent decades. I can remember nothing quite like it since an Irish Republican mob dragged two soldiers, Corporals David Howe and Derek Wood, from their car at a funeral in Belfast in 1988. Of course there has been far greater loss of life in individual terror attacks since, but there is so much concentrated and brazen hatred in this incident, with one poor soul being hunted and killed to make a twisted and idiotic political point, that it has a unique intensity..." http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100218403/newspapers-were-right-to-publish-horrific-images-of-the-woolwich-terror-attack/
I think the big difference between Irish terrorism and Islamic terrorism is that Irish terrorism has a specific aim (i.e a united Ireland) and accommodation can be reached (indeed through devolution already has been in many respects) where-as Islamic terrorism appears to have no real "end game" beyond Jihad and destroying the US and it's allies?
So whilst of course it is correct to point out that Irish terrorism has killed more British citizens, I would say Islamic terrorism is at least on paper a bigger threat, because they have no real aim other than total destruction.
Or put another way, it's hard to imagine Gerry Adams letting off a nuclear or biological weapon in the middle of London, but the same can't be said for the Islamic fanatics who beheaded the solider yesterday - If they could have had a nuclear device rather than a machete, we can have no doubt they would have used it...
Sean Fear of this parish and Luton will be able to furnish us with the full SP but to my mind Luton is an odd place - leafy, pleasing and neighbourly in areas but also with a quiet menace about it.
The fnic communities are hugely diverse like many around the nation but I'd have to say the town has also attracted a small minority of radicals with highly vocal hatemongers among them that ensure an underlying tension in town is all too often prevalent.
I've walked through Luton and its environs on a fair few occasions (a branch of the Icknield Way passes nearby). It's obviously an ethnically diverse area and poor in places, but I sensed no problems, although the last time was six years ago.
However: one Saturday afternoon about eight years ago, I was walking to Luton station after a walk. It was a sunny day and the centre was bustling. As I passed under a rail bridge a fairly unkempt-looking woman asked me if I wanted a blow job. She was asian, petite, and looked really manky, if you pardon the expression.
I've walked all over the country and never once had a prostitute approach me like that. I had a rucksack on my back and was sweaty after my walk, so I guess she wasn't too picky. ;-)
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
I used to detest those people. The middle class SWPers with their IRA posters on the walls. Absolutely sickening.
They'd crap themselves if they ever went to the Bogside. Although the Unionist terrorists had a few reliable fundraising supporters around the country too.
The loyalist raised most of theirs through drugs. By the late 1980 they had carved out their dealing territories and where happily trading drugs and arms with the republicans. The INLA eventually worried more about drugs than politics.
I've walked through Luton and its environs on a fair few occasions (a branch of the Icknield Way passes nearby). It's obviously an ethnically diverse area and poor in places, but I sensed no problems, although the last time was six y
However: one Saturday afternoon about eight years ago, I was walking to Luton station after a walk. It was a sunny day and the centre was bustling. As I passed under a rail bridge a fairly unkempt-looking woman asked me if I wanted a blow job. She was asian, petite, and looked really manky, if you pardon the expression.
I've walked all over the country and never once had a prostitute approach me like that. I had a rucksack on my back and was sweaty after my walk, so I guess she wasn't too picky. ;-)
And yes, I refused.
I actually found it quite unutterably sad.
The only time something similar has happened to me was in Naples, I had just got back from walking from Capri to Anacapri on a rather humid day so I was a bit hot and sweaty, and a rather rough looking lady invited me up to her room. Obviously I declined too!
What does Nigel Farage have to say about the Woolwich incident?
Farage said: ""We are all left horrified by this appalling attack on the peaceful streets of London, and our thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the young man who was killed and those who were injured.
"I hope and believe that this is an isolated incident and appeal for calm amongst all our communities."
A perfectly reasonable response which marked him up several slots in my estimation. Absolutely no attempt to link it to any wider agenda. Some here could learn from it. It's not that other agendas are necessarily wrong, but that one case like this doesn't prove anything about anyone, and it's a mistake to try to fit everything that happens into evidence for one's wider opinions.
I'm going to the Stockholm frontline tomorrow morning. Your intrepid reporter will file his copy in due course (after a suitable amount of akvavit has been consumed).
Did we ever get hundreds of British citizens of Irish ancestry marching to the Real IRA banner?
There have been many displays of support for Irish republican terrorists in Britain by British people.
There used to be collections for the IRA every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs around Archway, after everyone had stood up for the Soldier's Song. I imagine it was pretty similar in other parts of London too.
So behind closed doors with the general public not exposed to it? Are we thus surprised that there was less attention to it?
get a grip Socrates, it was always there and in the open if you knew where to look for it. Univeristies used to be stuffed with lefty middle classes trying to smell the cordite through campaigns via people like Troops out. Demos where de rigueur at the time of the Hunger Strikes and the evils of Thatcher.
I used to detest those people. The middle class SWPers with their IRA posters on the walls. Absolutely sickening.
They'd crap themselves if they ever went to the Bogside. Although the Unionist terrorists had a few reliable fundraising supporters around the country too.
The loyalist raised most of theirs through drugs. By the late 1980 they had carved out their dealing territories and where happily trading drugs and arms with the republicans. The INLA eventually worried more about drugs than politics.
I've walked all over the country and never once had a prostitute approach me like that. I had a rucksack on my back and was sweaty after my walk, so I guess she wasn't too picky. ;-)
What does Nigel Farage have to say about the Woolwich incident?
Farage said: ""We are all left horrified by this appalling attack on the peaceful streets of London, and our thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the young man who was killed and those who were injured.
"I hope and believe that this is an isolated incident and appeal for calm amongst all our communities."
A perfectly reasonable response which marked him up several slots in my estimation. Absolutely no attempt to link it to any wider agenda. Some here could learn from it. It's not that other agendas are necessarily wrong, but that one case like this doesn't prove anything about anyone, and it's a mistake to try to fit everything that happens into evidence for one's wider opinions.
Quite right
I wouldnt know how to find it but I as sure you were equally non commital /judgemental on the Brevik case with regard to any right wing groups
Clegg and Tommy Robinson of the EDL are on LBC after 1pm - not at the same time... IIRC Mr Robinson made quite a charlie out of Paxo a couple of yrs ago so be interesting to see how he does against Ms Hartley-Brewer who's no numpty.
The Stockholm police spokesman said rioting had occurred in both deprived parts of the city and parts that would be considered "normal".
"My colleagues say the people on the streets are a mixture of every kind of people you can think of," he added.
"We have got Swedes, we have got very young people, we have got people aged 30 to 35. You can't define them as a group.
"We don't know why they are doing this. There is no answer to it."
Sound familiar to anyone?
Political class lying again.
Have they caught the Somali perpetrators of yesterdays attack, or are they still at large. We need to know who's lying.
I dont think the fact they are British/Nigerian Muslim terrorists rather than British/Somalian Muslim terrorists is really to anyones relief or disappointment.
I have it queued up - I had a peek and it looked erm *gritty* - is that fair?
Yes so far. it's not so much a whodunnit ( you know pretty early on ) as a how is it going to unfold . Thus far it has been moderately paced but with lots of twists so you keep wtaching.
I'm finding the cybertweet attitude to the EDL really quite fascinating - they are dismissed as stupid morons without a seconds thought as if that made what they feel immaterial.
Very silly. The same was said about the BNP and then UKIP - ignoring people because you don't like what they think is immensely arrogant and doomed to failure.
I don't get Islamist terrorists with degrees from Greenwich Uni beheading serving soldiers either - but I don't ignore their grievances or what they're saying about a wider feeling of alienation.
The big difference between the reaction to IRA vs Islamic terror attacks is partly because it's tied up with cultural conflict but also partly simply because IRA terror acts have gone down while the other kind have gone up. People are naturally going to react more to terrorist stuff which is going up.
The big difference between the reaction to IRA vs Islamic terror attacks is partly because it's tied up with cultural conflict but also partly simply because IRA terror acts have gone down while the other kind have gone up. People are naturally going to react more to terrorist stuff which is going up.
If Blair was still in power and we had both Islamist and IRA terrorism on full throttle - I can't begin to imagine what would be left of our civil liberties. Not a lot as Paul Daniels might say.
On the political implications, there's a lot of talk about the EDL around the place. I know it mostly hasn't been positive, but publicity is publicity.
One thing that has been helping UKIP lately has been that the BNP had eaten its own head and left the entire populist right to them. To his credit it's unlikely that Farage would be willing or able to do what it takes to keep this constituency happy, and politics abhors a vacuum so you'd think someone on the far right would be able to get their shit together and peel some of the BNP's old voters back from their temporary home with Farage and his party of bleeding-heart centrists.
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
There's that too.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
It's not generalising. You can look at the opinion polls.
When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."
Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.
There is an element of the *enemy within* re Islam - many spokesbods seem to want to fundamentally change the UK into something culturally very different.
NI Catholics and Prods didn't - they were fighting over territory in what to me never made any sense at all. That was narrow sectarianism rather than an all out assault on our national laws and cultural identity.
I wouldn't disagree that currently there are islamic extremists who appear to wish to fundamentally change the UK to align with (their view of) islamic ideals.
But I think you are misunderstanding a lot of the focus of the NI conflict. Of course this was about NI rather than the whole of the UK, but certainly this was about much more than territory, but, in a way a similar form of cultural and religious ideology. And you have to think back to mind-set of the 60s and 70s rather than now.
One of the reasons why NI protestants were deeply opposed to integration with the republic of Ireland is precisely because they saw that it would result in a major culture change, to a situation where the catholic church had very major influence over politics - so in a way not that far away from the suggestion of a theocracy that some islamists might wish to see.
If you look further back in history it is interesting that some of the earliest leaders in the Irish independence movement were actually protestant. So originally independence was simply that, rather than what is ultimately turned out to be, involving a major religio-cultural distinction between the UK, with an establish protestant church and the republic with major political influence from the catholic church. De Valera was, of course instrumental in the 'catholisation' of the Irish constitution.
So, although the distinctions might seem as stark as in the current case, the conflict in NI was very much about culture and pre-eminance of a specific religious influence.
The big difference between the reaction to IRA vs Islamic terror attacks is partly because it's tied up with cultural conflict but also partly simply because IRA terror acts have gone down while the other kind have gone up. People are naturally going to react more to terrorist stuff which is going up.
If Blair was still in power and we had both Islamist and IRA terrorism on full throttle - I can't begin to imagine what would be left of our civil liberties. Not a lot as Paul Daniels might say.
Can anyone watch that video and not believe this young woman's home town has been wrecked by mass immigration? That may be a minority of Muslims marching to the sound of "UK go to hell", but it's certainly not a tiny one. They are barbaric savages with no appreciation of morality or decency. Where are the establishment politicians speaking out about rallies like this? Nowhere. They prefer to turn a blind eye so as not to raise tension, just as the police turned a blind eye to Muslim men raping white children.
Anjem Choudary's mob turn up in a town, and somewhere on the internet someone reacts exactly as they were meant to. Exactly how some did last night.
And the EDL don't represent British culture either.
Are you claiming most of those marching aren't from Luton?
I doubt it very much given that Choudary's mob AKA Islam4UK, Al Ghurabaa, the Saved Sect has a few hundred supporters who like marching around a lot.
You've never been to Luton, have you?
Luton is somewhere I never want to go to ever again - I was last there maybe 6 or 7 yrs ago and what a frighteningly unwelcoming place it was. There was an undercurrent of tension that I haven't felt so much anywhere else. The local residents in an unspoken stand-off with each other and taxi drivers that made me feel threatened just for being female and daring to get into their cabs without a chaperone.
A very weird experience and one I'd never expect to see here in the UK.
You should have gone to Luton Town FC when Chelsea played back in the 70's, that really was scary. To say nothing about Millwall
I wouldn't disagree that currently there are islamic extremists who appear to wish to fundamentally change the UK to align with (their view of) islamic ideals.
Think that would be some sort of quiet revolution?
I'm sure there are people in our country who not only dream of an islamic state, but who dream of imposing it with a ferocity that would turn our country into a charnel house.
This is a madman - not a politically motivated killer who hung around for the Plod to make him a martyr. Why the distinction between the two eludes some stuns me.
"A psychotic bodybuilder obsessed with Batman's arch nemesis the Joker has admitted carrying out a terrifying unprovoked axe attack on a stranger in a public gym.
Former chef Dale Pipe asked 'Why so serious?' - the phrase uttered by Heath Ledger's character in The Dark Knight - immediately after attacking a fellow leisure centre user.
The deranged 20-year-old had armed himself with an axe as well as kitchen and craft knives, before targeting a 22-year-old man at Belle Vue Leisure Centre in Consett, County Durham, in January.
The victim, who was using a urinal when he was attacked, suffered 16 wounds to the head, neck and chest.
That simply means people are used to IRA attacks, they're background noise.
There's that too.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
It's not generalising. You can look at the opinion polls.
When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."
Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.
There is an element of the *enemy within* re Islam - many spokesbods seem to want to fundamentally change the UK into something culturally very different.
NI Catholics and Prods didn't - they were fighting over territory in what to me never made any sense at all. That was narrow sectarianism rather than an all out assault on our national laws and cultural identity.
I wouldn't disagree that currently there are islamic extremists who appear to wish to fundamentally change the UK to align with (their view of) islamic ideals.
But I think you are misunderstanding a lot of the focus of the NI conflict. Of course this was about NI rather than the whole of the UK, but certainly this was about much more than territory, but a similar form of ideology. And you have to think back to mind-set of the 60s and 70s rather than now.
One of the reasons why NI protestants were deeply opposed to integration with the republic of Ireland is precisely because they saw that it would result in a major culture change, to a situation where the catholic church had very major influence over politics - so in a way not that far away from the suggestion of a theocracy that some islamists might wish to see.
If you look further back in history it is interesting that some of the earliest leaders in the Irish independence movement were actually protestant - Michael Collins being a good example. So originally independence was simply that, rather than what is ultimately turned out to be, involving a major religio-cultural distinction between the UK, with an establish protestant church and the republic with major political influence from the catholic church. De Valera was, of course instrumental in the 'catholisation' of the Irish constitution.
So, although the distinctions might seem as stark as in the current case, the conflict in NI was very much about culture and pre-eminance of a specific religious influence.
Ironically, since the child abuse scandal, the Republic has moved quite strongly away from the Church being influential, while Northern Ireland seems to still have religion infused in its politics.
If you look further back in history it is interesting that some of the earliest leaders in the Irish independence movement were actually protestant - Michael Collins being a good example.
Not that it's hugely important but Michael Collins was not protestant. Where would pbc be without pedantry?
If you look further back in history it is interesting that some of the earliest leaders in the Irish independence movement were actually protestant - Michael Collins being a good example.
Not that it's hugely important but Michael Collins was not protestant. Where would pbc be without pedantry?
Comments
And even though the Real IRA has an astonishing record of brutal murder of innocent civilians and service personnel I dont remember a COBRA meeting being convened in the aftermath (though that might be down to my poor memory).
Sean Fear of this parish and Luton will be able to furnish us with the full SP but to my mind Luton is an odd place - leafy, pleasing and neighbourly in areas but also with a quiet menace about it.
The fnic communities are hugely diverse like many around the nation but I'd have to say the town has also attracted a small minority of radicals with highly vocal hatemongers among them that ensure an underlying tension in town is all too often prevalent.
The recent rioting barely got a mention whilst the London version was wall to wall. NI's semi-detached relationship has made a huge difference to how its reported.
But I think there's also an element of the ridiculousness of generalising about Irish people from the activities of the Real IRA somehow not stopping people from generalising about muslims from the activities of extremists in their communities.
If we transported ourselves back to the 70s and early 80s - and added in Islamists - the reaction would be different.
When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."
Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
No less scum than yesterdays nutjobs though.
Tapestry, follow your own advice. Or find a good doctor to deal with your health issues.
NI Catholics and Prods didn't - they were fighting over territory in what to me never made any sense at all. That was narrow sectarianism rather than an all out assault on our national laws and cultural identity.
So of course all terrorists are bad and unrepresentative of their greater community, but when that community is very different to the pre existing one, the differences are exaggerated.
Also many "white British" have Irish ancestry whereas few have muslim ancestry. There is bound to be a bias.
I had the misfortune to bump into John Hurt in a pub a few years ago as he held court in the belief he held the torch for a certain community - and then we learned recently that he hasn't an Irish bone in his body - "Genealogists cannot prove any link between John's family and the Marquis of Sligo - nor can they find any ancestry in Ireland. Disappointed, John explains that his feelings about Ireland as his homeland have altered." http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/john-hurt.shtml
.Google "green brigade"
Some people dont like some aspects of how some muslims live in the UK. So they are happy to conflate muslim terrorism (a practice carried out by about as many muslims as Irish people participated in republican groups) with a wider threat to the life of the UK presented by the muslim community itself. In this way they get to argue against a way of life they dont like by linking it to a security threat that has to be tackled. It wasnt done in the case of the Irish because few people had similar problems with the way Irish people chose to live their lives.
You should try out Parkhead on a Saturday afternoon as well.
I mean how long did it take after the news of a gruesome murder for some people to start to make political points about multiculturalism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troops_Out_Movement
I was quite disturbed by the whole event: effectively robbed under threat of violence, in the middle of the day, in an otherwise friendly pub. That this was viewed by all present as somehow normal made matters rather worse.
Here we go... RT Both #Woolwich suspects were known to MI5 and the police, Whitehall sources have confirmed via @WhiteheadTom
However: one Saturday afternoon about eight years ago, I was walking to Luton station after a walk. It was a sunny day and the centre was bustling. As I passed under a rail bridge a fairly unkempt-looking woman asked me if I wanted a blow job. She was asian, petite, and looked really manky, if you pardon the expression.
I've walked all over the country and never once had a prostitute approach me like that. I had a rucksack on my back and was sweaty after my walk, so I guess she wasn't too picky. ;-)
And yes, I refused.
I actually found it quite unutterably sad.
There was plenty of support for PIRA in the UK.
A difference in attitude between then and now might be that the nationalist/loyalist conflict was in essence a civil war between two peoples of the same race.
The current wave of terrorism is between, literally, "us" and "them" where although there are converts, the sides are more clearly definable as indigenous and endogenous so emotions and reactions differ accordingly.
Plus as has been pointed out, PIRA at least all wanted to come out of an op alive so they were, in a way, "ordinary decent terrorists". It is one of the loudest refrains from fanatical islamists that we westerners are too much in love with life whereas they crave death. That does our head in a bit.
I come from a really rough bit of Newcastle where we experienced a ram-raid to my Dad's shop [that we lived over] in the early 80s and were regularly burgled, so I've no illusions about crime or violence - the threatening tone of those places were off the scale re me personally as a white female. I lived in Peckham and Camberwell and never felt like this once.
Fortunatley english politicians just can't wait to line up and issue mea culpas and apologies.
That said, to me the air of menace was palpable, and was accompanied by some frantic elbowing from my friend indicating I really should comply. Thankfully I was not the sort of student to get on my high horse over such things!
I once told the son of a Maze escapee (I only found out afterwards who he was) where he could stuff his collection for "political prisoners". It ended up being quite the ballroom blitz!
We can pontificate, we will see what the public make of it in time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RdJ4dpRQeE
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22629712
"The murder of a British serviceman in daylight on a London street, in plain view, is one of the single most shocking new stories of recent decades. I can remember nothing quite like it since an Irish Republican mob dragged two soldiers, Corporals David Howe and Derek Wood, from their car at a funeral in Belfast in 1988. Of course there has been far greater loss of life in individual terror attacks since, but there is so much concentrated and brazen hatred in this incident, with one poor soul being hunted and killed to make a twisted and idiotic political point, that it has a unique intensity..." http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100218403/newspapers-were-right-to-publish-horrific-images-of-the-woolwich-terror-attack/
So whilst of course it is correct to point out that Irish terrorism has killed more British citizens, I would say Islamic terrorism is at least on paper a bigger threat, because they have no real aim other than total destruction.
Or put another way, it's hard to imagine Gerry Adams letting off a nuclear or biological weapon in the middle of London, but the same can't be said for the Islamic fanatics who beheaded the solider yesterday - If they could have had a nuclear device rather than a machete, we can have no doubt they would have used it...
Did she mistake you for another poster here ?
The Stockholm police spokesman said rioting had occurred in both deprived parts of the city and parts that would be considered "normal".
"My colleagues say the people on the streets are a mixture of every kind of people you can think of," he added.
"We have got Swedes, we have got very young people, we have got people aged 30 to 35. You can't define them as a group.
"We don't know why they are doing this. There is no answer to it."
Sound familiar to anyone? Summer 2011?
It's the most positive post you posted on Cameron in ages.
[@Tykejohnno: no, not a positive post]
""We are all left horrified by this appalling attack on the peaceful streets of London, and our thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the young man who was killed and those who were injured.
"I hope and believe that this is an isolated incident and appeal for calm amongst all our communities."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/401819/Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage-says-he-hopes-and-believes-Woolwich-attack-is-isolated-incident
A perfectly reasonable response which marked him up several slots in my estimation. Absolutely no attempt to link it to any wider agenda. Some here could learn from it. It's not that other agendas are necessarily wrong, but that one case like this doesn't prove anything about anyone, and it's a mistake to try to fit everything that happens into evidence for one's wider opinions.
Why did you beat the lady up?
She asked me if I wanted some sort of job ;-)
I have it queued up - I had a peek and it looked erm *gritty* - is that fair?
Quite right
I wouldnt know how to find it but I as sure you were equally non commital /judgemental on the Brevik case with regard to any right wing groups
Yes please.
Very silly. The same was said about the BNP and then UKIP - ignoring people because you don't like what they think is immensely arrogant and doomed to failure.
I don't get Islamist terrorists with degrees from Greenwich Uni beheading serving soldiers either - but I don't ignore their grievances or what they're saying about a wider feeling of alienation.
He was.
Breivik was nut. No more to be said.
My initial reaction concerning yesterday's murder was similar - a nut, a schizo, or something similar.
Best to let the facts emerge before jumping to conclusions.
One thing that has been helping UKIP lately has been that the BNP had eaten its own head and left the entire populist right to them. To his credit it's unlikely that Farage would be willing or able to do what it takes to keep this constituency happy, and politics abhors a vacuum so you'd think someone on the far right would be able to get their shit together and peel some of the BNP's old voters back from their temporary home with Farage and his party of bleeding-heart centrists.
But I think you are misunderstanding a lot of the focus of the NI conflict. Of course this was about NI rather than the whole of the UK, but certainly this was about much more than territory, but, in a way a similar form of cultural and religious ideology. And you have to think back to mind-set of the 60s and 70s rather than now.
One of the reasons why NI protestants were deeply opposed to integration with the republic of Ireland is precisely because they saw that it would result in a major culture change, to a situation where the catholic church had very major influence over politics - so in a way not that far away from the suggestion of a theocracy that some islamists might wish to see.
If you look further back in history it is interesting that some of the earliest leaders in the Irish independence movement were actually protestant. So originally independence was simply that, rather than what is ultimately turned out to be, involving a major religio-cultural distinction between the UK, with an establish protestant church and the republic with major political influence from the catholic church. De Valera was, of course instrumental in the 'catholisation' of the Irish constitution.
So, although the distinctions might seem as stark as in the current case, the conflict in NI was very much about culture and pre-eminance of a specific religious influence.
Think that would be some sort of quiet revolution?
I'm sure there are people in our country who not only dream of an islamic state, but who dream of imposing it with a ferocity that would turn our country into a charnel house.
They aren;t many, maybe. But they exist.
"A psychotic bodybuilder obsessed with Batman's arch nemesis the Joker has admitted carrying out a terrifying unprovoked axe attack on a stranger in a public gym.
Former chef Dale Pipe asked 'Why so serious?' - the phrase uttered by Heath Ledger's character in The Dark Knight - immediately after attacking a fellow leisure centre user.
The deranged 20-year-old had armed himself with an axe as well as kitchen and craft knives, before targeting a 22-year-old man at Belle Vue Leisure Centre in Consett, County Durham, in January.
The victim, who was using a urinal when he was attacked, suffered 16 wounds to the head, neck and chest.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329500/Psychotic-bodybuilder-obsessed-Batmans-Joker-attacked-innocent-stranger-axe.html#ixzz2U7J6PaTQ
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Has Her Maj just abdicated in favour of the Rt Hon Member for Witney ??