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  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    What price Simon Danczuk to UKIP?

    Wrote a friendly piece in the Mail about UKIP, fair enough

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2638411/Memo-Ed-Weve-got-stop-treating-UKIP-like-swivel-eyed-lepers-says-Labour-MP-youre-wondering-heres-eat-bacon-butty.html

    But today he has written for Breitbart, which is the most pro UKIP news site on the interweb!

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/31/Lessons-learned-from-Rotherham-Simon-DanczukMP

    Farage in The Sun today said

    "We are going all out for the working class vote now. Five of our most winnable seats are Labour held and there are even some Labour MP's thinking of joining us.. I'll be going hell for leather in these northern seats"

    I reckon Danczuk to UKIP is not a million to one
  • Wasn't Tusk being spun by some on here as Cameron's choice for EU President?
    Dan the man doesn't seem to think so. Apols if I've misremembered.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100284627/new-jobs-for-the-boys-but-the-same-old-eu/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    edited August 2014
    Socrates said:

    Dadge said:

    I wish Cameron and other leaders would stop pussyfooting around about the Ukraine. It's tantamount to appeasement. I know it would've hurt, but the only way to've stopped Putin in his tracks would've been full sanctions, i.e. an import/export ban and asset freeze. The idea that this man is now able to use the current situation as a bargaining position is pretty sickening.

    Full sanctions on gas exports, cut off access to the City of London, and close the Dardanelles to Russian ships. It would have brought Russia to its knees.
    I thought the strait could only be closed by Turkey, and only to non-Black sea powers?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    As an aside one of the consequences of working in Germany for me has been to look at the upside of German labour law ( yes I know ! ) which while sclerotic doesn't half force the management to innovate, control costs and seek flexibility in other ways ( annual hours contracts for instance ). Perhaps in having it too easy UK companies don't really stretch themselves to the same extent.

    don't talk to me about German labour law just now.

    Dealing with the most ridiculous works council right now. Restructuring a conglomerate - we want to grow one part of the business while shrinking others. Result: the works council won't approve any hires in the growing part because they are upset about redundancies in the shrinking part...
    banker complains he has to work for his salary :-)

    Who's the union IG Metall or Verdi ?
    Nah, I'm just disappointed.

    I had this mental image of the German unions being constructive and collaborative and working with management to achieve the best possible outcome for all stakeholders. Now I've discovered they are obstructive f*ckwits, just like in the UK.

    My illusions have been shattered...

    ;-)
    Generally speaking you have to dangle things at them, also if you can't get a sensible view from the locals try the regional level.
    They are proposing a deal whereby they will let us hire 1 person externally for every 1 we take internally. (Anyone not based in Frankfurt, even if they work for the company, counts as an external hire...)
    I should have thought the problem was amenable to a solution. You set up a subsidiary in the UK to do the expanding work. If the unions kick up give them a copy of one of Frau Merkel's speeches explaining how wonderful the EU is and what a great benefit the free-movement of labour brings to Germany. Then shut down the Frankfurt end.
    Firm is closing their UK business because the unions demanded it as the price of the last deal...
    and as ever people take the easy way out rather than cut the problem costs.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2014
    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Calling me a Powellite is fine with me.. I think Enoch was the greatest politician we have had, and recent events have proved him entirely right and idiots like you/tim completely wrong

    However, I haven't mentioned race, and specifically said the same would have happened (segregation and ghettoisation creating a them and us atmosphere/cover ups) if the immigrants had been Amish Americans

    Its your kind of thinking that's got us into this mess If I were you I'd try and change the subject again because your sort are guilty of aiding and abetting child rape
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    Dadge said:

    I wish Cameron and other leaders would stop pussyfooting around about the Ukraine. It's tantamount to appeasement. I know it would've hurt, but the only way to've stopped Putin in his tracks would've been full sanctions, i.e. an import/export ban and asset freeze. The idea that this man is now able to use the current situation as a bargaining position is pretty sickening.

    Full sanctions on gas exports, cut off access to the City of London, and close the Dardanelles to Russian ships. It would have brought Russia to its knees.
    It would bring Europe to its knees, not Russia.

    That Russian invasion so stridently announced still not materialised. The Kiev invasion of the East was always going to fail, the militia are defending their homes. The US already seeking a way out.

    Absolute disgrace that the IMF loan is going ahead, my tax money being used to commit atrocities.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Fair enough.

    But.

    To "increase our chances of dealing with this" we need to silence the ridiculous, stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this", and therefore silences everyone in fear. Meaning the abuse continues.

    Agreed?

    Put it another way: it would be nice if we could raise this above party politics, but that means the Left needs to face some very nasty facts, which challenge its core worldview.

    Are you capable of that?

    For reference there is a bleak but very wise article, in today's Telegraph, by LABOUR MP Simon Danczuk, which attempts to do what we all want. So the Left is capable of doing this, when it tries hard.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11066244/Rotherham-is-not-an-isolated-incident.html
    PB has some Powellites, proper. But the issue surrounding race is far more important than that. There are few people I disagree with more than Enoch Powell, but Sean and Socrates have - on the whole - said a lot I agree with.

    Yes, there has been too much pussyfooting around issues that clearly have racial dimensions for fear of being, or being perceived to be, racist.

    Now there might be a time when Sean's counter-reactionary "stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this"" might prove to have gone too far. But we are a long way from that at the moment.

    We desperately need someone to get a grip at the top, to allow us all to get a grip on our country.
  • Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    BBC Scotland News ‏@BBCScotlandNews 5h
    UKIP leader Nigel Farage is to address a pro-Union rally in Glasgow ahead of the #indyref vote http://bbc.in/1zYWFR5

    Should be fun him in Glasgow and Orange Order in Edinburgh next day , sure to boost YES by a big margin. All we need now are BT's other nice friends to follow suit and it will be a walkover.
    UKIP is the fastest growing party in Scotland so I'm sure the YESNP will be keen to organize a passionate group of greeters.
    HYUFD said:

    David Herdson Indeed, if Farage gets all the Scottish voters who voted for UKIP in May to vote No that would help in a tight race, he will make little difference to the Yes total either way, Yes voters who hate him will still vote Yes and No Labour and LD voters who dislike him will be residents of Edinburgh town houses not the working class Labour voters who could swing the election, they will like his populist message on immigration

    Interesting point to raise. My gut feeling is however that the people who'd be attracted by Mr F's visit are hardcore No anyway, and voting No already. A quick check for Glasgow confirms that UKIP did poorly in the Euros, below the Greens (but above the Tories, though this was an Euro election). (Different turnout for indyref is, however, a big joker in the pack.)

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/labour-wins-most-city-votes-in-euro-elections-165006n.24326661
    I disagree, Salmond and Farage are fishing in the same pool. That's why Eck loathes and fears UKIP so much.
  • @Isam.

    Wouldn't have thought so. He's much too preoccupied with the investigations into the Rochdale abuse cases.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11065878/Labour-MPs-Left-ignored-sex-abuse.html

    He'd lose credibiity as well as influence if he switched now, and I don't see how it would assist his reelection chances.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Charles said:



    Firm is closing their UK business because the unions demanded it as the price of the last deal...

    In that case move the whole thing and just shut the German end altogether. Frau Merkel will explain to the unions that their total loss is a price that has to be paid for being part of the single market and that Germany is better off as a result.

    Come on, Mr. Charles, it was only this morning you were on here having a pop a a poster that suggested the UK would be better off if we were a bit more protectionist. Well, if losing jobs because of overseas competition is good for us it must be good for Germany too. Shut the whole thing down over here and move it to, say, Leicester, the hub of the fastest growing region in the UK, and the home of some jolly good curry houses (not in my experience as good as Leeds, Birmingham or Burgess Hill but good enough for the Germans).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    If mentioning the racial aspect of crimes driven by race is so awful, whats the preoccupation with Stephen Lawrence? Just any other stabbing isn't it?

    *obv not my real thoughts
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Grandiose said:

    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Fair enough.

    But.

    To "increase our chances of dealing with this" we need to silence the ridiculous, stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this", and therefore silences everyone in fear. Meaning the abuse continues.

    Agreed?

    Put it another way: it would be nice if we could raise this above party politics, but that means the Left needs to face some very nasty facts, which challenge its core worldview.

    Are you capable of that?

    For reference there is a bleak but very wise article, in today's Telegraph, by LABOUR MP Simon Danczuk, which attempts to do what we all want. So the Left is capable of doing this, when it tries hard.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11066244/Rotherham-is-not-an-isolated-incident.html
    PB has some Powellites, proper. But the issue surrounding race is far more important than that. There are few people I disagree with more than Enoch Powell, but Sean and Socrates have - on the whole - said a lot I agree with.

    Yes, there has been too much pussyfooting around issues that clearly have racial dimensions for fear of being, or being perceived to be, racist.

    Now there might be a time when Sean's counter-reactionary "stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this"" might prove to have gone too far. But we are a long way from that at the moment.

    We desperately need someone to get a grip at the top, to allow us all to get a grip on our country.
    Racists, anti-immigration obsessives and Powellites have been salivating at this, and on PB we have seen some posters excitedly pushing their nasty, narrow agenda for days now.

    It's about far, far more than that. And the victims deserve better than this kind of vile trash.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited August 2014
  • SeanT packs a far prettier punch than Will Self.

  • Socrates said:

    Dadge said:

    I wish Cameron and other leaders would stop pussyfooting around about the Ukraine. It's tantamount to appeasement. I know it would've hurt, but the only way to've stopped Putin in his tracks would've been full sanctions, i.e. an import/export ban and asset freeze. The idea that this man is now able to use the current situation as a bargaining position is pretty sickening.

    Full sanctions on gas exports, cut off access to the City of London, and close the Dardanelles to Russian ships. It would have brought Russia to its knees.
    The only one of those that was ever possible was cutting them off from the City. A gas embargo would have brought Western Europe to it's knees long before it stopped the Russians and closing the Bospherous would have very quickly led to war between Russia and NATO.

    Anyone advocating that last option is simply mad.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    SeanT said:

    *humble, polite cough*

    Headed for a thousand shares on my Telegraph blog. Not bad for a Sunday.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100284604/the-self-loathing-of-the-british-left-is-now-a-problem-for-us-all/

    Totally kicked the arse of anyone on the Observer, today, as far as I can see.

    Would have been interesting to see how many comments it might have received. Ah well.

    *sigh*

    Why were the comments turned off? Because police charges could be pending Re. Rotherham?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Is it just me, or is the BBC kicking the arse out of the ‘Ashya’ story? – Five days on the trot as their top story is more time than was given over to 180.000 Syrian deaths, Christian genocide by ISIS and the sexual abuse of 1400 girls in Rotherham – what’s the fascination, I don't get it.

    Less awkward for their worldview than the other stories?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Hugh said:



    Racists, anti-immigration obsessives and Powellites have been salivating at this, and on PB we have seen some posters excitedly pushing their nasty, narrow agenda for days now.

    It's about far, far more than that. And the victims deserve better than this kind of vile trash.

    The victims do indeed and have done for many years. Why didn't they get better treatment? Well, according to Ann Cryer, former Labour MP, it was because that anyone who tried to raise the issue was likely to be branded a racist, as she was left in no doubt in 2002.

    So the same thinking that you are now displaying is actually responsible for denying the victims protection for at least 12 years. Maybe you need time to adjust your thinking.
  • Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    Hugh said:

    Grandiose said:

    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Fair enough.

    But.

    To "increase our chances of dealing with this" we need to silence the ridiculous, stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this", and therefore silences everyone in fear. Meaning the abuse continues.

    Agreed?

    Put it another way: it would be nice if we could raise this above party politics, but that means the Left needs to face some very nasty facts, which challenge its core worldview.

    Are you capable of that?

    For reference there is a bleak but very wise article, in today's Telegraph, by LABOUR MP Simon Danczuk, which attempts to do what we all want. So the Left is capable of doing this, when it tries hard.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11066244/Rotherham-is-not-an-isolated-incident.html


    We desperately need someone to get a grip at the top, to allow us all to get a grip on our country.
    Racists, anti-immigration obsessives and Powellites have been salivating at this, and on PB we have seen some posters excitedly pushing their nasty, narrow agenda for days now.

    It's about far, far more than that. And the victims deserve better than this kind of vile trash.
    I'm thinking of the victims, it's why I am infuriated and enraged that in a society that I grew up in, that I thought was mostly decent and caring, that our politicians even though misguided at least believed in what they were doing, that it could come to this!

    Fuck this. I want to see heads on spikes, not for the low level perpetrators, but for the people who knew and allowed it to continue. We hanged people at Nuremberg for this kind of shit.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @SeanT
    In reference to my earlier post to you, You appear to be adopting the position that child abuse only became a problem in the New Labour years of multi cultural Britain.
    Perhaps you could use your higher than average IQ to work out when it has not been a problem?
    I realise you might have some difficulty due to the lack of data, but you should be able to infer from the little that is available on the subject.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Could he have been any more on the money than in his first comment here?

    Incredible foresight

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugD4W12S-cU
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,813

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    BBC Scotland News ‏@BBCScotlandNews 5h
    UKIP leader Nigel Farage is to address a pro-Union rally in Glasgow ahead of the #indyref vote http://bbc.in/1zYWFR5

    Should be fun him in Glasgow and Orange Order in Edinburgh next day , sure to boost YES by a big margin. All we need now are BT's other nice friends to follow suit and it will be a walkover.
    UKIP is the fastest growing party in Scotland so I'm sure the YESNP will be keen to organize a passionate group of greeters.
    HYUFD said:

    David Herdson Indeed, if Farage gets all the Scottish voters who voted for UKIP in May to vote No that would help in a tight race, he will make little difference to the Yes total either way, Yes voters who hate him will still vote Yes and No Labour and LD voters who dislike him will be residents of Edinburgh town houses not the working class Labour voters who could swing the election, they will like his populist message on immigration

    Interesting point to raise. My gut feeling is however that the people who'd be attracted by Mr F's visit are hardcore No anyway, and voting No already. A quick check for Glasgow confirms that UKIP did poorly in the Euros, below the Greens (but above the Tories, though this was an Euro election). (Different turnout for indyref is, however, a big joker in the pack.)

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/labour-wins-most-city-votes-in-euro-elections-165006n.24326661
    I disagree, Salmond and Farage are fishing in the same pool. That's why Eck loathes and fears UKIP so much.
    Exactly. He's scared because UKIP propose genuine independence, not sham independence. I'd give him 5 minutes in a debate with Farage before his argument collapsed.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Socrates said:

    Dadge said:

    I wish Cameron and other leaders would stop pussyfooting around about the Ukraine. It's tantamount to appeasement. I know it would've hurt, but the only way to've stopped Putin in his tracks would've been full sanctions, i.e. an import/export ban and asset freeze. The idea that this man is now able to use the current situation as a bargaining position is pretty sickening.

    Full sanctions on gas exports, cut off access to the City of London, and close the Dardanelles to Russian ships. It would have brought Russia to its knees.
    The only one of those that was ever possible was cutting them off from the City. A gas embargo would have brought Western Europe to it's knees long before it stopped the Russians and closing the Bospherous would have very quickly led to war between Russia and NATO.

    Anyone advocating that last option is simply mad.
    Definitely, it would blow NATO apart as most of its members would refuse to join in, thus removing any last vestige of doubt about its credibility. Those nations that did join in would lose.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144

    SeanT packs a far prettier punch than Will Self.

    Groupies, eh?
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    mods?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    isam said:

    If mentioning the racial aspect of crimes driven by race is so awful, whats the preoccupation with Stephen Lawrence? Just any other stabbing isn't it?

    *obv not my real thoughts

    With Stephen Lawrence the issue was of "institutional racism" and perhaps of some elements of the police being complicit in covering up the crime.

    This concept of "institutional racism" is part of the shackling process of the police in Rotherham, and of the campaign against stop and search powers. Stop and search is one way that police try to limit the knife murders on the streets of London. The victims of knife crime are overwhelmingly young BME males as this website shows: http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/teenage-murder-london.html

    The racial dimension of stop and search is undeniably a hot potato, but people seem less concerned about young black men being stabbed than having their pockets turned out. I cannot help but think that this is the wrong way round.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2014
    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    Grandiose said:

    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Fair enough.

    But.

    To "increase our chances of dealing with this" we need to silence the ridiculous, stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this", and therefore silences everyone in fear. Meaning the abuse continues.

    Agreed?

    Put it another way: it would be nice if we could raise this above party politics, but that means the Left needs to face some very nasty facts, which challenge its core worldview.

    Are you capable of that?

    For reference there is a bleak but very wise article, in today's Telegraph, by LABOUR MP Simon Danczuk, which attempts to do what we all want. So the Left is capable of doing this, when it tries hard.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11066244/Rotherham-is-not-an-isolated-incident.html
    PB has some Powellites, proper. But the issue surrounding race is far more important than that. There are few people I disagree with more than Enoch Powell, but Sean and Socrates have - on the whole - said a lot I agree with.

    Yes, there has been too much pussyfooting around issues that clearly have racial dimensions for fear of being, or being perceived to be, racist.

    Now there might be a time when Sean's counter-reactionary "stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this"" might prove to have gone too far. But we are a long way from that at the moment.

    We desperately need someone to get a grip at the top, to allow us all to get a grip on our country.
    Racists, anti-immigration obsessives and Powellites have been salivating at this, and on PB we have seen some posters excitedly pushing their nasty, narrow agenda for days now.

    It's about far, far more than that. And the victims deserve better than this kind of vile trash.
    you miserable accomplice for child rape
    Well done.
    My pleasure

    Youd be best off doing the gardening again if all you are here for is to troll about child abuse
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Hugh said:

    mods?

    rockers ?
  • Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    SeanT said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    SeanT said:

    *humble, polite cough*

    Headed for a thousand shares on my Telegraph blog. Not bad for a Sunday.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100284604/the-self-loathing-of-the-british-left-is-now-a-problem-for-us-all/

    Totally kicked the arse of anyone on the Observer, today, as far as I can see.

    Would have been interesting to see how many comments it might have received. Ah well.

    *sigh*

    Yeah, but at least no one is ripping your content off.
    Hah. Did anyone notice that I nicked the "PAYE" thingy from a pb contributor?

    I can't remember who said it on pb, but, anyway, thanks.

    I've always felt this blog was an under-appreciated resource.

    Mr Smithson, sorry for losing it below.

    Sean_T a minor transgression.

    I saw a piece I did which involved quite a bit of research, collating data etc turn up on the front page of the Telegraph.

    It was the data on how many troops were dying from IEDs in Afghanistan. I had a personal interest, the reason for my research.

    I was quite miffed.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Hugh said:



    Racists, anti-immigration obsessives and Powellites have been salivating at this, and on PB we have seen some posters excitedly pushing their nasty, narrow agenda for days now.

    It's about far, far more than that. And the victims deserve better than this kind of vile trash.

    The victims do indeed and have done for many years. Why didn't they get better treatment? Well, according to Ann Cryer, former Labour MP, it was because that anyone who tried to raise the issue was likely to be branded a racist, as she was left in no doubt in 2002.

    So the same thinking that you are now displaying is actually responsible for denying the victims protection for at least 12 years. Maybe you need time to adjust your thinking.
    Not just that. But to pretend there isn't any race issue here at all is to help Powell, not hinder him. It's not a grown-up response. In Rotherham, sexual abuse was an issue for the Asian community.

    In wherever else, it may be in a community divides between racial, ethnic or anything else lines. Does the fact that abuse happened in churches and Christian organisations prevent us from saying so? Or are we only allowed to do that because we're a Christian country?

    Let me get this clear: I vocerifirally oppose almost everything that Enoch Powell said. I'm sure isam will remember.
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 665
    edited August 2014
    isam/hugh

    You are not to interact with each other, directly or indirectly on any topic.

    Neither of you are permitted to talk about the events of Rotherham or related events.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @Grandiose

    "... is to help Powell, not hinder him.... "

    Ermm, he is dead.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited August 2014
    @SeanT
    "Where we clearly have not succeeded is tackling organised Muslim grooming and gang rape."
    We never succeeded in tackling it no matter what the religion, or lack, of the perpetrators, or indeed even their race.
    While some prostitutes make a life style choice, many of the younger ones are given no choice in the matter.
    It was ever thus
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    @Grandiose

    "... is to help Powell, not hinder him.... "

    Ermm, he is dead.

    His ghost. His ideas. His vision. His predictions.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam/hugh

    You are not to interact with each other, directly or indirectly on any topic.

    Neither of you are permitted to talk about the events of Rotherham or related events.

    isam/hugh

    You are not to interact with each other, directly or indirectly on any topic.

    Neither of you are permitted to talk about the events of Rotherham or related events.

    The truth supressed. Job done I guess.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    dr_spyn said:

    Trouble in Broxtowe.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-29004970

    Perhaps Dr P needs to have a word.

    "Arsene" probably missed that one.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    SeanT said:

    *humble, polite cough*

    Headed for a thousand shares on my Telegraph blog. Not bad for a Sunday.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100284604/the-self-loathing-of-the-british-left-is-now-a-problem-for-us-all/

    Totally kicked the arse of anyone on the Observer, today, as far as I can see.

    Would have been interesting to see how many comments it might have received. Ah well.

    *sigh*

    Yeah, but at least no one is ripping your content off.
    Hah. Did anyone notice that I nicked the "PAYE" thingy from a pb contributor?

    I can't remember who said it on pb, but, anyway, thanks.

    I've always felt this blog was an under-appreciated resource.

    I think it was me, around about the time of the Olympics opening ceremony.
  • Independence referendum ups record political bet, now stands to collect £1 million

    One customer has now bet a total of £800,000 on the vote, and stands to win £1 million if the Scottish people reject independence on September 18.

    The punter had already placed the biggest political bet ever, placing £400,000 in June 2014. He then increased that £600,000 in early August, at the same William Hill branch in south-west London where he has placed all of his bets.

    The middle-aged businessman, who has remained anonymous, is not a Scot and will not have a vote in the referendum.

    https://news.google.co.uk/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&topic=n
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited August 2014
    Grandiose said:

    @Grandiose

    "... is to help Powell, not hinder him.... "

    Ermm, he is dead.

    His ghost. His ideas. His vision. His predictions.
    Sorry, Mr. Grandiose, just pulling your leg. Powell said something 50 years ago, I never realised he left behind such a legacy. If I recall he also kicked up a fuss when a fellow officer, a native Indian, was refused admission to his club because of his race. Nobody seems to remember that. Strange.

    Which bit of his ideas, vision, ghost am I not supposed to like? Is is the bit where, against all the norms of the day, he demanded equal treatment for a fellow of a different race or something else?
  • Clacton - best prices

    UKIP 1/7 Hills
    Con 7/1 Betfair
    50 bar
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Much better canvassing in Dundee today with no fractionally ahead. BT is throwing some serious resources at Dundee as it is one of the few places Yes is ahead. There is increasing confidence that we have weathered the storm although my own guess is that there will be a crisis moment yet.
  • IndyRef - best prices

    No 1/4 BetFred
    Yes 4/1 Betfair
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Smarmeron said:

    @SeanT
    "Where we clearly have not succeeded is tackling organised Muslim grooming and gang rape."
    We never succeeded in tackling it no matter what the religion, or lack, of the perpetrators, or indeed even their race.
    While some prostitutes make a life style choice, many of the younger ones are given no choice in the matter.
    It was ever thus

    Perhaps the day has finally come that pimping of young girls (which often links into drug usage and money laundering via cash orientated businesses such as taxi firms and takeaways) becomes a police priority, with a policy of zero tolerance*.

    Far be it for me to praise Carswell, but one of his ideas in his book "the Plan" was directly elected police commissioners to increase local accountability (chapter 2). Perhaps these are the people who can make it a priority!

    *there also needs to be zero social tolerance of users of prostitutes, and of using words such as "hoe" and "pimp" in positive ways, such as "pimping my ride".
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    What were the details from the Indyref poll in the Times(?) which were trailed last night, the nearest copy is several thousand miles away.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    I think Enoch was the greatest politician we have had

    He doesn't hold a candle to Edmund Burke.

    (For the record, I don't like Enoch Powell. The fact he said that people of non-white descents could never be British is unequivocally wrong. Britishness is a culture and state of mind, not a biological descent thing. I'm proud to call people through the ages like Olaudah Equiano to Nasser Hussain my countrymen.)
  • UK To Quit The European Union By 2020 (Hills) 3/1
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    taffys said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738773/Police-plan-mass-raids-sex-gangs-Day-reckoning-hundreds-child-abusers-180-mainly-Asian-men-targeted-Manchester-alone.html

    it looks like the authorities are planning a big counterpunch.

    Goodness knows what the cost will be in terms of police time, court time, prison time....it just goes on. and on. and on. That's after the untold human suffering.

    It's just a giant catastrophe. There are almost no words.

    IF that story is true - are the authorities tacitly admitting they have known about this for ages?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Grandiose said:

    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Fair enough.

    But.

    To "increase our chances of dealing with this" we need to silence the ridiculous, stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this", and therefore silences everyone in fear. Meaning the abuse continues.

    Agreed?

    Put it another way: it would be nice if we could raise this above party politics, but that means the Left needs to face some very nasty facts, which challenge its core worldview.

    Are you capable of that?

    For reference there is a bleak but very wise article, in today's Telegraph, by LABOUR MP Simon Danczuk, which attempts to do what we all want. So the Left is capable of doing this, when it tries hard.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11066244/Rotherham-is-not-an-isolated-incident.html
    PB has some Powellites, proper. But the issue surrounding race is far more important than that. There are few people I disagree with more than Enoch Powell, but Sean and Socrates have - on the whole - said a lot I agree with.

    Yes, there has been too much pussyfooting around issues that clearly have racial dimensions for fear of being, or being perceived to be, racist.

    Now there might be a time when Sean's counter-reactionary "stupid Left that screams "racism" or "Islamophobia" every time someone attempts to "deal with this"" might prove to have gone too far. But we are a long way from that at the moment.

    We desperately need someone to get a grip at the top, to allow us all to get a grip on our country.
    Racists, anti-immigration obsessives and Powellites have been salivating at this, and on PB we have seen some posters excitedly pushing their nasty, narrow agenda for days now.

    It's about far, far more than that. And the victims deserve better than this kind of vile trash.
    Ah, I see what you are doing.

    Appear to be reasonable, but actually try and smear anyone obsessed with THE BIGGGEST SCANDAL IN MODERN BRITISH POLITICS as a "racist, Powellite, cranky salivating wanker".

    Etc.

    Ad nauseam.

    Do f*ck off, there's a good chap.

    LOL.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited August 2014

    Smarmeron said:

    @SeanT
    "Where we clearly have not succeeded is tackling organised Muslim grooming and gang rape."
    We never succeeded in tackling it no matter what the religion, or lack, of the perpetrators, or indeed even their race.
    While some prostitutes make a life style choice, many of the younger ones are given no choice in the matter.
    It was ever thus

    Perhaps the day has finally come that pimping of young girls (which often links into drug usage and money laundering via cash orientated businesses such as taxi firms and takeaways) becomes a police priority, with a policy of zero tolerance*.

    Far be it for me to praise Carswell, but one of his ideas in his book "the Plan" was directly elected police commissioners to increase local accountability (chapter 2). Perhaps these are the people who can make it a priority!

    *there also needs to be zero social tolerance of users of prostitutes, and of using words such as "hoe" and "pimp" in positive ways, such as "pimping my ride".
    It has to be one of the greatest unaswnered questions of the Rotherham scandal quite why 12- or 13-year-old children engaging in sexual intercourse with 20- or 25-year-old men was considered in some sort of "grey area" where community relations or discretion of any other kind was somehow involved. Surely it is a million miles off what is considered acceptable. "Zero tolerance" wouldn't have been needed, per se.

    There might be crimes that take a very close eye to get a grip on, like domestic abuse. Or situations, like investigating the cover-up, where that is so.

    But surely the sexual exploitation of those under the age of consent (in at least some cases) and/or plied with illegal drugs is not one of those cases.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Grandiose
    The question gets asked time after time, how did this happen?
    It happens because it "happens" to the invisible kids of this world whose word is suspect compared to almost everyone else's.
    Report after report has basically said the same, lessons are learned, then forgotten.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    isam/hugh

    You are not to interact with each other, directly or indirectly on any topic.

    Neither of you are permitted to talk about the events of Rotherham or related events.

    Understood.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Calling me a Powellite is fine with me.. I think Enoch was the greatest politician we have had, and recent events have proved him entirely right and idiots like you/tim completely wrong

    However, I haven't mentioned race, and specifically said the same would have happened (segregation and ghettoisation creating a them and us atmosphere/cover ups) if the immigrants had been Amish Americans

    Its your kind of thinking that's got us into this mess If I were you I'd try and change the subject again because your sort are guilty of aiding and abetting child rape
    Powell was a piss-poor politician. He was a first-class example of why a brilliant mind is not necessarily an advantage if it can't be allied to an understanding of the public. Both he and the country would have been much better if he'd stayed in academia, penning articles and appearing on TV and radio discussion programmes from time to time when he had something to say (which would have been frequently).
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:



    Ah, I see what you are doing.

    Appear to be reasonable, but actually try and smear anyone obsessed with THE BIGGGEST SCANDAL IN MODERN BRITISH POLITICS as a "racist, Powellite, cranky salivating wanker".

    Etc.

    Ad nauseam.

    Do f*ck off, there's a good chap.

    And he's doing it in exactly the same language ("salivating") as tim once did. Funny that. Maybe they've been sharing notes.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,813
    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "... links into drug usage and money laundering via cash orientated businesses such as taxi firms and takeaways"

    When I used to drive up into Town I was struck by the number of takeaways, especially the fried chicken outlets. There are parts of South London where one can find half a dozen of them in a few hundred yards. I have often thought that the market cannot be big enough to sustain so many such businesses. Maybe HMRC could have a big part to play in this crack-down (supposing it ever happens).

    Instead of plotting up ways to seize money from my bank account they could go and raid all those dodgy businesses - just think of the money they could legitimately seize (the VAT alone!). Of course, they would have to get off their arses and leave the office, to say nothing of going into nasty parts of town - probably puts the tin hat on the idea.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Smarmeron said:

    @Grandiose
    The question gets asked time after time, how did this happen?
    It happens because it "happens" to the invisible kids of this world whose word is suspect compared to almost everyone else's.
    Report after report has basically said the same, lessons are learned, then forgotten.

    That's the thing though, this goes way beyond being invisible. At least in an underground sense. These people where *made* invisible. They were *treated* as if they were invisible. But the truth was - needing only to assume only a fraction of the reports are correct - the crimes committed were repeated at graphically brought to the attention of the authorities. And it cannot be said these were not the right people. They were absolutely the right people.

    I feel very strongly about this, as you can tell; so I apologise to you and any other poster for being curt.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    Nye Bevan.
  • Smarmeron said:

    @Grandiose
    The question gets asked time after time, how did this happen?
    It happens because it "happens" to the invisible kids of this world whose word is suspect compared to almost everyone else's.
    Report after report has basically said the same, lessons are learned, then forgotten.

    I'm sure it had nothing to do with Labour appeasing a core vote cohort during Blair's wars on Muslim countries, you bet.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    Edmund Burke:

    - British patriot
    - Had clear moral clarity
    - Supportive of the American rebels
    - Opposed to the French revolution
    - Anti-slavery
    - Anti-colonialism
    - Anti-corporate power
    - Combined support for liberal rights with gradual reform
    - Father of the progressive brand of conservatism
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Grandiose
    Be as curt as you like, it doesn't change the facts. It was always the conclusion at the end of multiple reports and papers on the subject. People become "aware" then a few years later forget.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Calling me a Powellite is fine with me.. I think Enoch was the greatest politician we have had, and recent events have proved him entirely right and idiots like you/tim completely wrong

    However, I haven't mentioned race, and specifically said the same would have happened (segregation and ghettoisation creating a them and us atmosphere/cover ups) if the immigrants had been Amish Americans

    Its your kind of thinking that's got us into this mess If I were you I'd try and change the subject again because your sort are guilty of aiding and abetting child rape
    Powell was a piss-poor politician. He was a first-class example of why a brilliant mind is not necessarily an advantage if it can't be allied to an understanding of the public. Both he and the country would have been much better if he'd stayed in academia, penning articles and appearing on TV and radio discussion programmes from time to time when he had something to say (which would have been frequently).
    Agreed. Kind of like a rancid Mad Melanie Phillips of his day.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    *humble, polite cough*

    Headed for a thousand shares on my Telegraph blog. Not bad for a Sunday.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100284604/the-self-loathing-of-the-british-left-is-now-a-problem-for-us-all/

    Totally kicked the arse of anyone on the Observer, today, as far as I can see.

    Would have been interesting to see how many comments it might have received. Ah well.

    *sigh*

    Why were the comments turned off? Because police charges could be pending Re. Rotherham?
    Reckon it's more the case that this type of blog attracts some truly insane, racist Nazis - and their lefty opponents and equivalents - and on a Sunday the moderators can't be arsed to police the commentary (or the mods simply aren't around).

    You should have published it on Monday. I think it would have become on of the most commented on Blogs ever! ;)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    BBC Scotland News ‏@BBCScotlandNews 5h
    UKIP leader Nigel Farage is to address a pro-Union rally in Glasgow ahead of the #indyref vote http://bbc.in/1zYWFR5

    Should be fun him in Glasgow and Orange Order in Edinburgh next day , sure to boost YES by a big margin. All we need now are BT's other nice friends to follow suit and it will be a walkover.
    UKIP is the fastest growing party in Scotland so I'm sure the YESNP will be keen to organize a passionate group of greeters.
    HYUFD said:

    David Herdson Indeed, if Farage gets all the Scottish voters who voted for UKIP in May to vote No that would help in a tight race, he will make little difference to the Yes total either way, Yes voters who hate him will still vote Yes and No Labour and LD voters who dislike him will be residents of Edinburgh town houses not the working class Labour voters who could swing the election, they will like his populist message on immigration

    Interesting point to raise. My gut feeling is however that the people who'd be attracted by Mr F's visit are hardcore No anyway, and voting No already. A quick check for Glasgow confirms that UKIP did poorly in the Euros, below the Greens (but above the Tories, though this was an Euro election). (Different turnout for indyref is, however, a big joker in the pack.)

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/labour-wins-most-city-votes-in-euro-elections-165006n.24326661
    I disagree, Salmond and Farage are fishing in the same pool. That's why Eck loathes and fears UKIP so much.
    Cuckoo, Cuckoo , Cuckoo
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Smarmeron said:

    @Grandiose
    Be as curt as you like, it doesn't change the facts. It was always the conclusion at the end of multiple reports and papers on the subject. People become "aware" then a few years later forget.

    I wasn't disagreeing.

    People don't seize the initiative. They have damning evidence against major institutions, but they don't follow through. The moment is lost: for institutions have all the time in the world.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2014
    Grandiose said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @SeanT
    "Where we clearly have not succeeded is tackling organised Muslim grooming and gang rape."
    We never succeeded in tackling it no matter what the religion, or lack, of the perpetrators, or indeed even their race.
    While some prostitutes make a life style choice, many of the younger ones are given no choice in the matter.
    It was ever thus

    Far be it for me to praise Carswell, but one of his ideas in his book "the Plan" was directly elected police commissioners to increase local accountability (chapter 2). Perhaps these are the people who can make it a priority!

    *there also needs to be zero social tolerance of users of prostitutes, and of using words such as "hoe" and "pimp" in positive ways, such as "pimping my ride".
    It has to be one of the greatest unaswnered questions of the Rotherham scandal quite why 12- or 13-year-old children engaging in sexual intercourse with 20- or 25-year-old men was considered in some sort of "grey area" where community relations or discretion of any other kind was somehow involved. Surely it is a million miles off what is considered acceptable. "Zero tolerance" wouldn't have been needed, per se.

    There might be crimes that take a very close eye to get a grip on, like domestic abuse. Or situations, like investigating the cover-up, where that is so.

    But surely the sexual exploitation of those under the age of consent (in at least some cases) and/or plied with illegal drugs is not one of those cases.
    Exactly. It is clear that quite a lot of tolerance was allowed, when it should have been zero.

    We do need to consider whether our police have the right priorities targeted.

    Many of the Rotherham rapes were not reported and it seems that many of the victims so controlled and confused that at the time that they did not consider reporting the crimes.

    A police force that only features reported crime in its "target culture" therefore does not tackle pimping and exploitation, or FGM as these are also not reported. It focuses on reported crime such as burgulary, car crime and a surprising number of "crimes" on social media.

    A less "target culture" police force that concentrated on unreported crime, would soon be sacked by their managers. Not only would they be missing their other targets, but they would be apparently be increasing the number of crimes in the area (through converting unreported crimes to reported ones).

    I suspect the same principle applies to social work and the NHS. A lot of these girls self harm in various ways and present to NHS services with suicidal and cutting behaviour, STDs, drug and alcohol problems etc.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:



    Ah, I see what you are doing.

    Appear to be reasonable, but actually try and smear anyone obsessed with THE BIGGGEST SCANDAL IN MODERN BRITISH POLITICS as a "racist, Powellite, cranky salivating wanker".

    Etc.

    Ad nauseam.

    Do f*ck off, there's a good chap.

    And he's doing it in exactly the same language ("salivating") as tim once did. Funny that. Maybe they've been sharing notes.
    I noticed "Hugh" made some very bitchy comments about our cat-loving former POTY the other night.

    Then there's all the aside's about "Dave and Sam"

    The evidence is growing... ;)

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Calling me a Powellite is fine with me.. I think Enoch was the greatest politician we have had, and recent events have proved him entirely right and idiots like you/tim completely wrong

    However, I haven't mentioned race, and specifically said the same would have happened (segregation and ghettoisation creating a them and us atmosphere/cover ups) if the immigrants had been Amish Americans

    Its your kind of thinking that's got us into this mess If I were you I'd try and change the subject again because your sort are guilty of aiding and abetting child rape
    Powell was a piss-poor politician. He was a first-class example of why a brilliant mind is not necessarily an advantage if it can't be allied to an understanding of the public. Both he and the country would have been much better if he'd stayed in academia, penning articles and appearing on TV and radio discussion programmes from time to time when he had something to say (which would have been frequently).
    Didn't understand the public????

    When he made the Birmingham speech, opinion polls overwhelmingly backed him, and Heseltine said he would have won a landslide! He was the voice of the people

    The politicians ignored his advice and look where we are now

    Check this out from 1965.... The public's opinion on whether Enoch would make a good leader

    http://www.macearchive.org/Archive/Title/atv-today-26071965-enoch-powell-vox-pops/MediaEntry/25428.html
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    RobD said:

    What were the details from the Indyref poll in the Times(?) which were trailed last night, the nearest copy is several thousand miles away.

    If there was one there has been no crowing from frothers or BT so it must be bad or there was no poll.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,813
    Socrates said:

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    Edmund Burke:

    - British patriot
    - Had clear moral clarity
    - Supportive of the American rebels
    - Opposed to the French revolution
    - Anti-slavery
    - Anti-colonialism
    - Anti-corporate power
    - Combined support for liberal rights with gradual reform
    - Father of the progressive brand of conservatism
    He's in my top 5.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited August 2014
    DavidL said:

    Much better canvassing in Dundee today with no fractionally ahead. BT is throwing some serious resources at Dundee as it is one of the few places Yes is ahead. There is increasing confidence that we have weathered the storm although my own guess is that there will be a crisis moment yet.

    LOL, you are good at the fairy stories David. Some numpties on here may believe such rubbish but it will get nothing but titters in Scotland.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,813
    Hugh said:

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    Nye Bevan.
    I should also have said -'and why?' -as it's more interesting.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited August 2014
    Socrates said:

    Dadge said:

    I wish Cameron and other leaders would stop pussyfooting around about the Ukraine. It's tantamount to appeasement. I know it would've hurt, but the only way to've stopped Putin in his tracks would've been full sanctions, i.e. an import/export ban and asset freeze. The idea that this man is now able to use the current situation as a bargaining position is pretty sickening.

    Full sanctions on gas exports, cut off access to the City of London, and close the Dardanelles to Russian ships. It would have brought Russia to its knees.
    About 18 months after half of Europe had frozen to death.

    The other irony is that proper sanctions would force Russia to redevelop its industrial sector, which has gone to pot in favour of "dig and sell" natural resources, which would in a decade or so make Russia more powerful, not less.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Grandiose said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Grandiose
    The question gets asked time after time, how did this happen?
    It happens because it "happens" to the invisible kids of this world whose word is suspect compared to almost everyone else's.
    Report after report has basically said the same, lessons are learned, then forgotten.

    That's the thing though, this goes way beyond being invisible. At least in an underground sense. These people where *made* invisible. They were *treated* as if they were invisible. But the truth was - needing only to assume only a fraction of the reports are correct - the crimes committed were repeated at graphically brought to the attention of the authorities. And it cannot be said these were not the right people. They were absolutely the right people.

    I feel very strongly about this, as you can tell; so I apologise to you and any other poster for being curt.
    Mr. Grandiose, did you see that report yesterday where the staff at a children's home where cataloguing the car registration numbers, dates, times and descriptions of drivers of the people that came to take the girls away. They passed them up the chain of command but nothing ever happened.

    There is the big problem. Who did those reports go to? Why was nothing done? Some senior council people, and probably police, have some big explaining to do. One can understand why some named Rotherham Council officials turned up and demanded that the records be destroyed (see yesterday's Telegraph). No sign of any police action, though. We must give South Yorks Police time though, they are probably still shredding the evidence over the Hillsborough cover-up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    Independence referendum ups record political bet, now stands to collect £1 million

    One customer has now bet a total of £800,000 on the vote, and stands to win £1 million if the Scottish people reject independence on September 18.

    The punter had already placed the biggest political bet ever, placing £400,000 in June 2014. He then increased that £600,000 in early August, at the same William Hill branch in south-west London where he has placed all of his bets.

    The middle-aged businessman, who has remained anonymous, is not a Scot and will not have a vote in the referendum.

    https://news.google.co.uk/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&topic=n

    How can he win a million if he bet #800K and gets back less than a million. Any moronic halfwit knows that is not a million never mind winning a million. If lucky he wins 173K which is far from a million.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    SeanT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    *humble, polite cough*

    Headed for a thousand shares on my Telegraph blog. Not bad for a Sunday.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100284604/the-self-loathing-of-the-british-left-is-now-a-problem-for-us-all/

    Totally kicked the arse of anyone on the Observer, today, as far as I can see.

    Would have been interesting to see how many comments it might have received. Ah well.

    *sigh*

    Why were the comments turned off? Because police charges could be pending Re. Rotherham?
    Reckon it's more the case that this type of blog attracts some truly insane, racist Nazis - and their lefty opponents and equivalents - and on a Sunday the moderators can't be arsed to police the commentary (or the mods simply aren't around).

    More likely to save your inferiority complex taking a battering as they called you out for the plonker you are.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Socrates said:

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    Edmund Burke:

    - British patriot
    - Had clear moral clarity
    - Supportive of the American rebels
    - Opposed to the French revolution
    - Anti-slavery
    - Anti-colonialism
    - Anti-corporate power
    - Combined support for liberal rights with gradual reform
    - Father of the progressive brand of conservatism
    Call me an old leftie, but could I nominate Tom Paine?

    He was in many ways the polar opposite of Burke, apart from also supporting the american revolutionaries, even to the point of being elected to the French revolutionary assembly.

    His books "Common Sense" and "The Rights of Man" were the political best sellers of their day, and still read very well.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    That'd make a good thread on a quiet day. I was very fond of Eugene McCarthy (and got involved in his abortive independent effort in a minor way) - clever, witty, fearless and right on the most important issue of his day (Vietnam). He was probably too quirky and too far from the mainstream to have been President, though.

    Gorbachev and Mandela, though - both achieved transitions from autocracies with astonishing poise and lack of vindictiveness. Gorbachev isn't respected at home because he lost a large chunk of his country while doing it - rather as people might feel if a Scottish Yes was in some way a direct result of Cameron's policies - but we at least should respect him.


  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    isam said:

    MikeK said:

    PAW said:

    I had thought to send a few K for Soubry's election fund, but she seems no better than Palmer.

    Ahah! You've found out that they're all the same as well. Time to join UKIP.
    I haven't exactly noticed UKIP storming the barricades on the Rotherham story, they're as silent as Cameron.

    Farage has spent his time parading Carswell like his latest trophy, and Nuttall is nowhere to be seen.
    If they had, they would have been accused of rank opportunism. We've already had a thread full of people accusing them of callously timing this defection and wiping Rotherham off the news agenda. I'm glad they're keeping their powder dry; it's for those responsible to explain.

    MikeK said:

    PAW said:

    I had thought to send a few K for Soubry's election fund, but she seems no better than Palmer.

    Ahah! You've found out that they're all the same as well. Time to join UKIP.
    I haven't exactly noticed UKIP storming the barricades on the Rotherham story, they're as silent as Cameron.

    Farage has spent his time parading Carswell like his latest trophy, and Nuttall is nowhere to be seen.
    If they had, they would have been accused of rank opportunism. We've already had a thread full of people accusing them of callously timing this defection and wiping Rotherham off the news agenda. I'm glad they're keeping their powder dry; it's for those responsible to explain.
    ‘rank opportunism’, er, so what - as an excuse that’s pretty weak.

    It strikes me as a little ironic that while kippers decry everyone else’s failings in Rotherham, Farage has been fairly quiet on the subject.
    He is in todays Sun saying it shows Labour "turning a blind eye" to something everyone else finds abominable

    Opportunist!
    Good on Farage. - but the time to speak out on Rotherham was at the time the report was released imho - and that was several days ago.
    The time to speak out was years ago.



  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    GIN1138 said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:



    Ah, I see what you are doing.

    Appear to be reasonable, but actually try and smear anyone obsessed with THE BIGGGEST SCANDAL IN MODERN BRITISH POLITICS as a "racist, Powellite, cranky salivating wanker".

    Etc.

    Ad nauseam.

    Do f*ck off, there's a good chap.

    And he's doing it in exactly the same language ("salivating") as tim once did. Funny that. Maybe they've been sharing notes.
    I noticed "Hugh" made some very bitchy comments about our cat-loving former POTY the other night.

    Then there's all the aside's about "Dave and Sam"

    The evidence is growing... ;)

    I remarked on this weeks back, but who really cares? I care as much as I do about the ludicrous Clacton poll where the Tory candidate had not even been interviewed or adopted by the local CA.
    Whilst I think the Cons candidate will lose, polls at this time and of this nature are pointless.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    malcolmg said:

    Independence referendum ups record political bet, now stands to collect £1 million

    One customer has now bet a total of £800,000 on the vote, and stands to win £1 million if the Scottish people reject independence on September 18.

    The punter had already placed the biggest political bet ever, placing £400,000 in June 2014. He then increased that £600,000 in early August, at the same William Hill branch in south-west London where he has placed all of his bets.

    The middle-aged businessman, who has remained anonymous, is not a Scot and will not have a vote in the referendum.

    https://news.google.co.uk/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&topic=n

    How can he win a million if he bet #800K and gets back less than a million. Any moronic halfwit knows that is not a million never mind winning a million. If lucky he wins 173K which is far from a million.
    erm, malc, I am no expert but I think he might get his stake back.

    Just possibly.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    No. This is way beyond party politics.

    And though PB Powellites have clearly been having a field day since the report, it's way beyond race too.

    In fact one of the most important things is that we don't allow racists and anti-immigration obsessives to hijack the whole thing to push their vile agenda. Otherwise we let down the victims and reduce our chances of dealing with this.
    Calling me a Powellite is fine with me.. I think Enoch was the greatest politician we have had, and recent events have proved him entirely right and idiots like you/tim completely wrong

    However, I haven't mentioned race, and specifically said the same would have happened (segregation and ghettoisation creating a them and us atmosphere/cover ups) if the immigrants had been Amish Americans

    Its your kind of thinking that's got us into this mess If I were you I'd try and change the subject again because your sort are guilty of aiding and abetting child rape
    Powell was a piss-poor politician. He was a first-class example of why a brilliant mind is not necessarily an advantage if it can't be allied to an understanding of the public. Both he and the country would have been much better if he'd stayed in academia, penning articles and appearing on TV and radio discussion programmes from time to time when he had something to say (which would have been frequently).
    Didn't understand the public????

    When he made the Birmingham speech, opinion polls overwhelmingly backed him, and Heseltine said he would have won a landslide! He was the voice of the people

    The politicians ignored his advice and look where we are now

    Check this out from 1965.... The public's opinion on whether Enoch would make a good leader

    http://www.macearchive.org/Archive/Title/atv-today-26071965-enoch-powell-vox-pops/MediaEntry/25428.html
    A good measure of how poor a politician Powell was is that he is now remembered for one speech, and mainly for just one misquoted part sentence in it. It is precisely because of that speech that immigration became such a no-go area for mainstream politicians and led, indirectly but led nonetheless, to the sort of mentality that allowed the Rotherham abuses go unchecked.

    And no, he didn't understand the public. On that one issue at that one time his views happened to coincide with many of the electorate but that's not the same thing.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    That'd make a good thread on a quiet day. I was very fond of Eugene McCarthy (and got involved in his abortive independent effort in a minor way) - clever, witty, fearless and right on the most important issue of his day (Vietnam). He was probably too quirky and too far from the mainstream to have been President, though.

    Gorbachev and Mandela, though - both achieved transitions from autocracies with astonishing poise and lack of vindictiveness. Gorbachev isn't respected at home because he lost a large chunk of his country while doing it - rather as people might feel if a Scottish Yes was in some way a direct result of Cameron's policies - but we at least should respect him.


    It would make a good Christmas/New Year thread.

    With voting by AV, of course...
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Grandiose said:


    It has to be one of the greatest unaswnered questions of the Rotherham scandal quite why 12- or 13-year-old children engaging in sexual intercourse with 20- or 25-year-old men was considered in some sort of "grey area" where community relations or discretion of any other kind was somehow involved. Surely it is a million miles off what is considered acceptable. "Zero tolerance" wouldn't have been needed, per se.

    There might be crimes that take a very close eye to get a grip on, like domestic abuse. Or situations, like investigating the cover-up, where that is so.

    But surely the sexual exploitation of those under the age of consent (in at least some cases) and/or plied with illegal drugs is not one of those cases.



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738170/The-abuse-STILL-going-s-worse-SUE-REID-broke-story-sex-gangs-preying-young-white-girls-This-week-one-victim-took-round-Rotherham-pointed-attackers-swaggering-street.html

    "And Emma Jackson, who is now 25, tells a revealing story about what happened to her when she was 13 and out with Tarik, plus his sidekicks, at the Rotherham shopping centre.

    It was near closing time, about six at night, too late, one might think, for a 13-year-old to be on the streets with a group of men ten years her senior.

    ‘A couple of beat bobbies came up to us and asked me for my name, my age, and my address,’ she recalled this week. ‘I had been taught to tell the truth by my parents, so I didn’t make up anything. I gave them the correct details.’

    What happened next was extraordinary. Tarik began to take charge. He told the two policemen to arrest him or stop bothering Emma and his group of friends. He said if they did not ‘p*** off’, he would take their badge numbers and make a complaint for racial harassment against them.

    Emma says: ‘The policemen just walked away. They did not drive me home, they did not contact my parents, they did nothing to protect me. I never heard anything from them.

    ‘It was always the same. If the perpetrators played the race card, then the police, the social services, they melted away.

    ‘It meant Tarik and these other men grew arrogant. They acted with complete impunity. They believed they were above any law."

  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    GIN1138 said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:



    Ah, I see what you are doing.

    Appear to be reasonable, but actually try and smear anyone obsessed with THE BIGGGEST SCANDAL IN MODERN BRITISH POLITICS as a "racist, Powellite, cranky salivating wanker".

    Etc.

    Ad nauseam.

    Do f*ck off, there's a good chap.

    And he's doing it in exactly the same language ("salivating") as tim once did. Funny that. Maybe they've been sharing notes.
    I noticed "Hugh" made some very bitchy comments about our cat-loving former POTY the other night.

    Then there's all the aside's about "Dave and Sam"

    The evidence is growing... ;)

    I remarked on this weeks back, but who really cares? I care as much as I do about the ludicrous Clacton poll where the Tory candidate had not even been interviewed or adopted by the local CA.
    Whilst I think the Cons candidate will lose, polls at this time and of this nature are pointless.
    Oh Jesus.

    tim was clever, knowledgeable and at times extremely funny. Anyone who detects those qualities in Hugh wants their head feeling.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Ishmael_X said:

    malcolmg said:

    Independence referendum ups record political bet, now stands to collect £1 million

    One customer has now bet a total of £800,000 on the vote, and stands to win £1 million if the Scottish people reject independence on September 18.

    The punter had already placed the biggest political bet ever, placing £400,000 in June 2014. He then increased that £600,000 in early August, at the same William Hill branch in south-west London where he has placed all of his bets.

    The middle-aged businessman, who has remained anonymous, is not a Scot and will not have a vote in the referendum.

    https://news.google.co.uk/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&topic=n

    How can he win a million if he bet #800K and gets back less than a million. Any moronic halfwit knows that is not a million never mind winning a million. If lucky he wins 173K which is far from a million.
    erm, malc, I am no expert but I think he might get his stake back.

    Just possibly.

    Yeah but he isn't winning a million then is he?

    Malcolm is right
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited August 2014
    The problem of how to tackle nationwide large scale law breaking is, in practical terms, tricky.

    For instance the use of mobile 'phones while driving is illegal, causes deaths, and damages people, but it is still not uncommon though it is decreasing.

    Viewed over many thousands of miles from the bicycle saddle I can say that in the early days there was no such law and people routinely carried on such conversations. When it was made illegal the practice certainly decreased, perhaps to many thousands of times a day. Nowadays, with a few successful prosecutions, and also increased fines, I do still see people breaking the law but now also more people are pulling over to talk on their mobiles. This dangerous illegal practice has yet to be stopped, but things are moving in the right direction.

    The point? With nation-wide law breaking it may not be feasible to nail all toe-rag criminals at the start in one go. But by gradually tightening the legal machinery and enforcing it, in full measure case by case, a change in behaviour might be effected in the end. Hopefully.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,874
    NP De Klerk is also similar to Gorbachev, Many hard core Afrikaners see him as betraying their race, but he was able to bring about the ending of apartheid and white minority rule with much less violence than could have occurred
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,874
    Carnyx Arguably a Farage visit to Glasgow would do less damage to No than a Cameron or Clegg one
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2014

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    Does everyone agree that surely Rotherham MUST have an affect on the Labour vote? All parties of power have a share in the blame, but surely Labour must be the worst affected.

    .
    Calling me a Powellite is fine with me.. I think Enoch was the greatest politician we have had, and recent events have proved him entirely right and idiots like you/tim completely wrong

    However, I haven't mentioned race, and specifically said the same would have happened (segregation and ghettoisation creating a them and us atmosphere/cover ups) if the immigrants had been Amish Americans

    Its your kind of thinking that's got us into this mess If I were you I'd try and change the subject again because your sort are guilty of aiding and abetting child rape
    Powell was a piss-poor politician. He was a first-class example of why a brilliant mind is not necessarily an advantage if it can't be allied to an understanding of the public. Both he and the country would have been much better if he'd stayed in academia, penning articles and appearing on TV and radio discussion programmes from time to time when he had something to say (which would have been frequently).
    Didn't understand the public????

    When he made the Birmingham speech, opinion polls overwhelmingly backed him, and Heseltine said he would have won a landslide! He was the voice of the people

    The politicians ignored his advice and look where we are now

    Check this out from 1965.... The public's opinion on whether Enoch would make a good leader

    http://www.macearchive.org/Archive/Title/atv-today-26071965-enoch-powell-vox-pops/MediaEntry/25428.html
    A good measure of how poor a politician Powell was is that he is now remembered for one speech, and mainly for just one misquoted part sentence in it. It is precisely because of that speech that immigration became such a no-go area for mainstream politicians and led, indirectly but led nonetheless, to the sort of mentality that allowed the Rotherham abuses go unchecked.

    And no, he didn't understand the public. On that one issue at that one time his views happened to coincide with many of the electorate but that's not the same thing.
    Well the people in that 1965 video seemed to think he understood them, and that was pre immigration speech, as did the majority of people after his speech in Birmingham

    Piss poor politicians like Heath, who sacked Powell, took us into the EU and ruined the country with mass immigration are the ones deserving of the title
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited August 2014
    Regarding the last article has nobody in the Tory party yet realised that now vast swathes of their heartlands have voted UKIP in the Euros that it may not be good for a party such as theirs that has a reputation for being an aloof out of touch rich upperclass liberal and elitist to have a couple of random unknown urban liberal academics wandering around the political arena sneering down their noses that those (former) Tory voters are all Poor Old Thick and White.Particularly when numerous senior members of the Tory Party have been recorded sneering down their noses at exactly the same voters. It further confirms the opinion that the Tories are not the same as us.

    Such a pitch does nothing for the hoped for reconciliation that Tories are desperate for.

    I imagine Farage will be chuckling in his pint over that one.

    PS Given the makeup of Libdem support (predominantly ABC1 too) it doesn't do their chances much good either.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    isam said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    malcolmg said:

    Independence referendum ups record political bet, now stands to collect £1 million

    One customer has now bet a total of £800,000 on the vote, and stands to win £1 million if the Scottish people reject independence on September 18.

    The punter had already placed the biggest political bet ever, placing £400,000 in June 2014. He then increased that £600,000 in early August, at the same William Hill branch in south-west London where he has placed all of his bets.

    The middle-aged businessman, who has remained anonymous, is not a Scot and will not have a vote in the referendum.

    https://news.google.co.uk/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&topic=n

    How can he win a million if he bet #800K and gets back less than a million. Any moronic halfwit knows that is not a million never mind winning a million. If lucky he wins 173K which is far from a million.
    erm, malc, I am no expert but I think he might get his stake back.

    Just possibly.

    Yeah but he isn't winning a million then is he?

    Malcolm is right
    OK yes sorry he is.

  • Socrates said:

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    Edmund Burke:

    - British patriot
    - Had clear moral clarity
    - Supportive of the American rebels
    - Opposed to the French revolution
    - Anti-slavery
    - Anti-colonialism
    - Anti-corporate power
    - Combined support for liberal rights with gradual reform
    - Father of the progressive brand of conservatism
    Call me an old leftie, but could I nominate Tom Paine?

    He was in many ways the polar opposite of Burke, apart from also supporting the american revolutionaries, even to the point of being elected to the French revolutionary assembly.

    His books "Common Sense" and "The Rights of Man" were the political best sellers of their day, and still read very well.
    Your namesake, Charles James , was better.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Regarding the last article has nobody in the Tory party yet realised that now vast swathes of their heartlands have voted UKIP in the Euros that it may not be good for a party such as theirs that has a reputation for being an aloof out of touch rich upperclass liberal and elitist to have a couple of random unknown urban liberal academics wandering around the political arena sneering down their noses that those (former) Tory voters are all Poor Old Thick and White.Particularly when numerous senior members of the Tory Party have been recorded sneering down their noses at exactly the same voters.

    Such a pitch does nothing for the hoped for reconciliation that Tories are desperate for.

    PS Given the makeup of Libdem support (predominantly ABC1 too) it doesn't do their chances much good either.


    It was quite funny seeing the telly going round Clacton trying to find the oldest, whitest, oikiest voters they could find for their reverse identity politics spin.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "... that one issue at that one time his views happened to coincide with many of the electorate ..."

    A better record than Cameron then. There is a man who understands the electorate so well he couldn't even get a majority against Brown and has been going backwards since.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Ishmael_X said:


    Oh Jesus.

    tim was clever, knowledgeable and at times extremely funny. Anyone who detects those qualities in Hugh wants their head feeling.

    Well, yes, there must be a danger that tim would sue over the suggestion.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Reading minutes of the Rotherham Safeguarding Children's Board to get a better understanding of what went wrong. Found this gem from September 2009:

    In relation to other regions in the country, Rotherham is reported to have taken the most proactive approach to dealing with the issue of sexual exploitation. Mr Perry responded that Rotherham therefore has a responsibility to share good practice and added that a recommendation should be made for the Board to commend the work done by staff in this area.

    Did they really believe this? Could those responsible for safeguarding children have been so in denial about what was happening that they could actually believe Rotherham was an exemplar for others to follow? I just cannot bring myself to believe that anyone could consciously write this stuff to cover up something they knew to be happening.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Toms said:

    The problem of how to tackle nationwide large scale law breaking is, in practical terms, tricky.

    For instance the use of mobile 'phones while driving is illegal, causes deaths, and damages people, but it is still not uncommon though it is decreasing.

    Viewed over many thousands of miles from the bicycle saddle I can say that in the early days there was no such law and people routinely carried on such conversations. When it was made illegal the practice certainly decreased, perhaps to many thousands of times a day. Nowadays, with a few successful prosecutions, and also increased fines, I do still see people breaking the law but now also more people are pulling over to talk on their mobiles. This dangerous illegal practice has yet to be stopped, but things are moving in the right direction.

    The point? With nation-wide law breaking it may not be feasible to nail all toe-rag criminals at the start in one go. But by gradually tightening the legal machinery and enforcing it, in full measure case by case, a change in behaviour might be effected in the end. Hopefully.

    What really changes behaviour is social disapproval for an act from people whose opinions are valued. Changing laws is a big part of that but it's not sufficient of itself.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Toms said:

    The problem of how to tackle nationwide large scale law breaking is, in practical terms, tricky.

    For instance the use of mobile 'phones while driving is illegal, causes deaths, and damages people, but it is still not uncommon though it is decreasing.

    Viewed over many thousands of miles from the bicycle saddle I can say that in the early days there was no such law and people routinely carried on such conversations. When it was made illegal the practice certainly decreased, perhaps to many thousands of times a day. Nowadays, with a few successful prosecutions, and also increased fines, I do still see people breaking the law but now also more people are pulling over to talk on their mobiles. This dangerous illegal practice has yet to be stopped, but things are moving in the right direction.

    The point? With nation-wide law breaking it may not be feasible to nail all toe-rag criminals at the start in one go. But by gradually tightening the legal machinery and enforcing it, in full measure case by case, a change in behaviour might be effected in the end. Hopefully.

    Yes and the same in reverse. If something starts off small and gets ignored it gets bigger every year.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Socrates said:

    Who is everyone's favourite politician living or dead? I warm to Disraeli the most in character, because I think my brain works a little like his brain worked (not claiming to be a great political thinker btw). A good historian (I forget who) said something like 'His mind was like a catherine wheel, spitting out ideas like sparks. Most fell on dead earth, but occasionally one fell on the straw, caught fire, and illuminated the night' about Disraeli, and I like to think about that when most of my ideas are falling on dead earth.

    Edmund Burke:

    - British patriot
    - Had clear moral clarity
    - Supportive of the American rebels
    - Opposed to the French revolution
    - Anti-slavery
    - Anti-colonialism
    - Anti-corporate power
    - Combined support for liberal rights with gradual reform
    - Father of the progressive brand of conservatism
    Call me an old leftie, but could I nominate Tom Paine?

    He was in many ways the polar opposite of Burke, apart from also supporting the american revolutionaries, even to the point of being elected to the French revolutionary assembly.

    His books "Common Sense" and "The Rights of Man" were the political best sellers of their day, and still read very well.
    Your namesake, Charles James , was better.

    Alas, I am not a Fox!

    My moniker started on a Leicester City (the Foxes) website, where there are many foxes. I like Dr Seuss for his wit, but also (as a good LibDem guardianista) wear socks with my sandals.

    Charles Fox should be nominated in the pre-reform act division.
This discussion has been closed.