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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s World Cup Final – how party supporters are split

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited July 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s World Cup Final – how party supporters are split on which team they want to win

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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Ich will Germany sieglich sein.

    Probably butchered the grammar. Been rewatching my Scrubs DVDs and discovered they have German subtitles available.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Seeing Argentina brutalised and stuffed would be nice. It's just a shame it's the 39ers that are doing it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Wonder why Lab VI are, relative to the others Argie fans?

    Sticking one to Fatcha?

    UKIP outliers comme d'habitude.....
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    Wonder why Lab VI are, relative to the others Argie fans?

    Sticking one to Fatcha?

    UKIP outliers comme d'habitude.....

    Scots?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    @Charles re:

    'You can only outflank if there is sufficient ground.

    The Liberals were crushed because Labour their left and the Tories absorbed their right.

    I suspect that, in GEs, the absolute maximum vote for a UKIP style manifesto is around 20-25%. The Tories approached that (I think they were c. 32%) in 2001 and 2005, but still had some loyalty support from the centre-right.

    So the best that UKIP can do is hurt the cause of the right.

    Even if they were to take all the current UKIP support (c. 12%), and let's say 2/3 of the current Tory support (+22%), they would still only be where the Tories are currently.

    Sometimes you need to appreciate the strategic lie of the ground. The British people, as a whole, are moderate, tolerant and forward looking. UKIP appeals to a minority.'

    You have no grounds to suspect that type of ceiling. There is an enormous bloc of potential voters in this country who have genuine concerns, frustrations etc. with this country, but have not yet been 'politicised'. UKIP's job is to make a connection with them, and give them a voice.

    Saying they hurt the cause of the right is even sillier. For the first time in decades, the right is outpolling the left. The Lib Dem vote has collapsed (hopefully forever), and UKIP have replaced them as the third party (again hopefully permanently). This is a great development for the right in British politics.

    British people are indeed moderate and tolerant, but you mistake moderacy and tolerance for current political fashion. Untrammeled immigration is not a particular demonstration of tolerance, and bakers falling foul of the law for not baking a cake is positively intolerant. Successful parties do not position themselves in the middle ground -they change what the middle ground is.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    If Argentina win, will there be some give us back the Malvinas nonsense?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Wonder why Lab VI are, relative to the others Argie fans?

    Sticking one to Fatcha?

    UKIP outliers comme d'habitude.....

    Scots?
    That may be part of it....after Londoners (18) the Scots (16) are most pro-Argie.......that said, there are surprisingly low levels of 'Don't know' across the board.......perhaps 'neither' is a proxy.....

    It is also noticeable that enthusiasm for Germany declines markedly (48>33) with age.....

  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Ich will Germany sieglich sein.

    Probably butchered the grammar. Been rewatching my Scrubs DVDs and discovered they have German subtitles available.

    I have discovered my West Wing DVDs not only have French subtitles available, but also dubbing. Both are a bit rubbish.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    I Probably butchered the grammar.

    Cough..! - Ich will Deutchland siegreich sehen. ; )
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited July 2014
    Us English folk remember The Hand of God and St Ettiene.

    When the Germans beat us, they beat us fair and square though Italia 90 was more heartbreaking than the above two.

    That said I'm backing the Argies to win tonight, that the match goes to penalties and that Müller and Messi are FGS.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    taffys said:

    If Argentina win, will there be some give us back the Malvinas nonsense?

    Or another naff ad, quickly parodied......?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgGL2CaeuU8
  • Long time no post (and seem to have changed name again). But......from Rio: Germany are the team everyone wants to be; Argentina the most tactically disciplined unit. Loew's side offer flair, invention, brilliant pressing and inter-play. Sabella has Messi and Mascherano (and Di Maria if fit). And the atmosphere here is incredible. Also suspect every available battalion of the Brazilian Army is on duty (with very big machine guns).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited July 2014
    @LuckyGuy

    The Hillsborough inquiry was chaired by a non legal type, the Bishop of Liverpool.

    Your suggestion that Jeremy Paxman chairs the Paedo inquiry is a complete non starter.

    Newsnight didn't run the Jimmy Savile story and smeared Lord McAlpine as a paedo, which ultimately saw the resignation of the BBC Director-General.

    So he'd be tainted from the start.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    I want Germany to win because as a neutral I want the team that has played the best and most exciting football to lift the cup. It might be considered treasonous by some but as someone with a passing interest in football I would much rather see a great skillful foreign team win than a mediocre home nations team. For me football is about entertainment not war by proxy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    I want Germany to win because as a neutral I want the team that has played the best and most exciting football to lift the cup. It might be considered treasonous by some but as someone with a passing interest in football I would much rather see a great skillful foreign team win than a mediocre home nations team. For me football is about entertainment not war by proxy.

    Well said.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    Is the Met hiding sex claim files? First indication Dickens dossier on Westminster paedophile ring may have been found

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690121/Is-Met-hiding-sex-claim-files-First-indication-Dickens-dossier-Westminster-paedophile-ring-found.htm

    A lot of ifs and buts and standard DM hype...but if it was actually found, crickey.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2014
    This is the last chance for Messi to prove he is the greatest player, possibly ever.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited July 2014

    I want Germany to win because as a neutral I want the team that has played the best and most exciting football to lift the cup. It might be considered treasonous by some but as someone with a passing interest in football I would much rather see a great skillful foreign team win than a mediocre home nations team. For me football is about entertainment not war by proxy.

    Totally agree. The Germans have been on balance the best team through out the competition. Can you really say that Argentina have been fantastic throughout? Messi have been ok and most games the Argies have been just marginally better than their opponents, without ever looking like they are going to rip them to shreds.

    I was speaking with a Dutch friend of mine and said unlucky about losing the semi-final. And he said, but hey if you can't score a single goal in 240 minutes of football, do you deserve to win the World Cup?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    Alf Ramsay seems to have permanently turned the English against Argentina with his 'animals' jibe. Forget the Falklands, the Hand of God and worst of all St Etienne (sorry but that one was self-inflicted) ever since 1966 the Argentinians have had a reputation for being bad sports and the English can't stand that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    @LuckyGuy

    The Hillsborough inquiry was chaired by a non legal type, the Bishop of Liverpool.

    Your suggestion that Jeremy Paxman chairs the Paedo inquiry is a complete non starter.

    Newsnight didn't run the Jimmy Savile story and smeared Lord McAlpine as a paedo, which ultimately saw the resignation of the BBC Director-General.

    So he'd be tainted from the start.

    I didn't follow the details - was the Hillsborough inquiry looking into a potential crime, or was it just "find out what happened" in the style of Truth & Reconciliation?

    That makes a huge difference
  • Charles said:

    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?

    Maggie won her war against the Argies.
    It eats the left up.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Is the Met hiding sex claim files? First indication Dickens dossier on Westminster paedophile ring may have been found

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690121/Is-Met-hiding-sex-claim-files-First-indication-Dickens-dossier-Westminster-paedophile-ring-found.htm

    A lot of ifs and buts and standard DM hype...but if it was actually found, crickey.

    If the police were passed the file, how high does the cover-up have to go?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2014
    O/T Have just finished watching Lovelace - highly recommended & very very thought provoking. Very interesting to see the dark side of one of the most famous films of all time.

    http://www.thelovelacemovie.com/
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    Charles said:

    @LuckyGuy

    The Hillsborough inquiry was chaired by a non legal type, the Bishop of Liverpool.

    Your suggestion that Jeremy Paxman chairs the Paedo inquiry is a complete non starter.

    Newsnight didn't run the Jimmy Savile story and smeared Lord McAlpine as a paedo, which ultimately saw the resignation of the BBC Director-General.

    So he'd be tainted from the start.

    I didn't follow the details - was the Hillsborough inquiry looking into a potential crime, or was it just "find out what happened" in the style of Truth & Reconciliation?

    That makes a huge difference
    Find out the truth.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549


    Saying they hurt the cause of the right is even sillier. For the first time in decades, the right is outpolling the left. The Lib Dem vote has collapsed (hopefully forever), and UKIP have replaced them as the third party (again hopefully permanently). This is a great development for the right in British politics.

    The kind of GE result that would be called a Lib Dem disaster, would be called a brilliant night for UKIP.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?

    More football fans wanting to see Messi? The vote for Germany is the same across the parties (except for UKIP) and it is the don't knows which differ.
  • Something that MIGHT shift the odds: Di Maria declared fit and starts, apparently....
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Charles said:

    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?

    Maggie won her war against the Argies.
    It eats the left up.


    Scotland and London. Scotland will be the football and Maradonna.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    @LuckyGuy

    The Hillsborough inquiry was chaired by a non legal type, the Bishop of Liverpool.

    Your suggestion that Jeremy Paxman chairs the Paedo inquiry is a complete non starter.

    Newsnight didn't run the Jimmy Savile story and smeared Lord McAlpine as a paedo, which ultimately saw the resignation of the BBC Director-General.

    So he'd be tainted from the start.

    I didn't follow the details - was the Hillsborough inquiry looking into a potential crime, or was it just "find out what happened" in the style of Truth & Reconciliation?

    That makes a huge difference
    Find out the truth.

    Which makes someone like +Liverpool ideal: representative of a community, but (presumably) not from there.

    And it wouldn't matter if he made a mistake from a judicial perspective.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited July 2014

    Charles said:

    @LuckyGuy

    The Hillsborough inquiry was chaired by a non legal type, the Bishop of Liverpool.

    Your suggestion that Jeremy Paxman chairs the Paedo inquiry is a complete non starter.

    Newsnight didn't run the Jimmy Savile story and smeared Lord McAlpine as a paedo, which ultimately saw the resignation of the BBC Director-General.

    So he'd be tainted from the start.

    I didn't follow the details - was the Hillsborough inquiry looking into a potential crime, or was it just "find out what happened" in the style of Truth & Reconciliation?

    That makes a huge difference
    Find out the truth.

    What truth, Mr. Eagles and to what point or purpose?

    For example, the arches at the Southern End of Regent Street were known as the, "Meat rack", for donkey's years. Everyone knew what was going on there, surely we don't need an enquiry to tell us what was common knowledge thirty or more years ago.
  • All together now....''Maradona es mas grande que Pele" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwFhPqLcW3U
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?

    Labour voters more working class and more interested in football and therefore more willing to admire quality players.
  • The Hillsborough Inquiry, despite the absurd degree of praise that it received at the time of its publication, was an appalling and unnecessary charade. It should not be used as a model for any subsequent inquiry.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Is the Met hiding sex claim files? First indication Dickens dossier on Westminster paedophile ring may have been found

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690121/Is-Met-hiding-sex-claim-files-First-indication-Dickens-dossier-Westminster-paedophile-ring-found.htm

    A lot of ifs and buts and standard DM hype...but if it was actually found, crickey.

    If the police were passed the file, how high does the cover-up have to go?
    Not far at all Mr. Decrepit. The Police can do what they feel they need to then they have to submit the file to the CPS. Back in other words to the government, with no oversight from there on. Actually there is oversight, but HMG will always maintain it is not their role to get involved in individual cases. So we have the beautiful situation where HMG can impose policy but not object if said policy is not followed in an individual case.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    The Hillsborough Inquiry, despite the absurd degree of praise that it received at the time of its publication, was an appalling and unnecessary charade. It should not be used as a model for any subsequent inquiry.

    Oh please.

    It was very necessary and helped uncover some appalling stuff, such as, 41 of 96 victims could have survived.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/nov/17/scotlandfootballteam-argentina

    "Diego Maradona arrived in Scotland yesterday before his first game in charge of the Argentina national side on Wednesday. Hundreds of Scottish fans were at Glasgow airport to greet him, many hoping for an autographed picture of his "hand of God" goal against England in the 1986 World Cup."
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    WTF?! Are people insane? Everybody wants Germany to win, and for Argentina to be defeated by a huge margin, as punishment for the aggressive sabre-rattling by President Kirchner over the issue of the Falklands. Why are people lying to the opinion pollsters and pretending otherwise?
  • Oh please.

    It was very necessary and helped uncover some appalling stuff, such as, 41 of 96 victims could have survived.

    What is the inquest determining at the moment, then?
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    The downright impertinence of Argentina provocatively and impertinently defeating the Netherlands in the semi-final would never have become a problem in the first place if Our Great Leader Margaret Thatcher had nuked Buenos Aires once and for all in 1982. I, for one, care more about the liberty of 3,000 British subjects in the Falkland Islands than I do about the lives of 40,000,000 Argentinians.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited July 2014

    Oh please.

    It was very necessary and helped uncover some appalling stuff, such as, 41 of 96 victims could have survived.

    What is the inquest determining at the moment, then?
    Without the inquiry the Dominic Grieve wouldn't have quashed the original verdicts and ordered new ones.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    I want Germany to win because as a neutral I want the team that has played the best and most exciting football to lift the cup. It might be considered treasonous by some but as someone with a passing interest in football I would much rather see a great skillful foreign team win than a mediocre home nations team. For me football is about entertainment not war by proxy.

    I've got £100 on the Argies at 4/1 but don't think they will, so have laid at 2.44 for my stake.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Independence ballot at Corby Highland Gathering today.

    Yes - 162
    No - 414

    Looks like done to a high standard - ie not like an internet poll.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-28279790
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561

    Charles said:

    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?

    Labour voters more working class and more interested in football and therefore more willing to admire quality players.
    Plus a bit of developing country sympathy, maybe - and maybe it's just me, but I feel it's going to be a bit hard on Latin America to host the games and have Germany walk off with the trophy.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    I want Germany to win because as a neutral I want the team that has played the best and most exciting football to lift the cup. It might be considered treasonous by some but as someone with a passing interest in football I would much rather see a great skillful foreign team win than a mediocre home nations team. For me football is about entertainment not war by proxy.

    Well said.
    To be fair as a West Ham supporter I kind of have to have that attitude given that 'playing good football' is about the only accolade my team is ever going to win. :-)
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790

    Plus a bit of developing country sympathy, maybe - and maybe it's just me, but I feel it's going to be a bit hard on Latin America to host the games and have Germany walk off with the trophy.

    It'll serve them right for having the downright impertinence not to be normal liberal European countries like us normal people. And for being so aggressive about the Falkland Islands.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Anyone thinks Argentina`s gonna win?
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Charles said:

    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?

    The basis of that is that 19% of Labour Party supporters are evil traitors who, from a malevolent sense of class hatred, are happy to betray 3,000 loyal British subjects to be condemned to live under the jackboot of an aggressive foreign tyranny led by the international war-criminal Cristina de Kirchner, instead of respecting the democratically expressed wishes of all British people to continue to be British. None of this would have become a problem if the whole of Argentina had been nuked out of existence on 3rd April 1982.

  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    If the score is anything less than 8-0 to Germany, we should re-invade Germany as well until they learn to be reasonable.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561
    Interesting canvass today - over 700 contacts (help by a big Labour Students team) in two prosperous traditionally Tory wards. Remarkably few undecided voters and heavily polarised Con/Lab with not many LD or UKIP - we met just one voter who was considering voting LD and he wasn't sure. We were well up on canvassing the same people in 2010 - swing just under 10% (but usual caveats apply). Essentially, as with the national polls, the LD vote seemed to be melting mostly our way, and very little Con<->Lab switching.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited July 2014
    Vince Cable really is a waste of space. Loads of waffle and not really doing anything decisive.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28282621

    Either he is of the opinion that things are good as they stand (which is a perfectly reasonable position) or that serious action needs to be taken in order to enforce protection of UK companies (again a perfectly reasonable position).

    So instead he wants to enact a load of legislation to tinker at things, in other worlds the worst of both worlds.

    In government, he is the same as when he was the "sage" for the BBC. Well on one hand we have this, and on the other hand you have that...but in government you have to make decisions.

    Instead he has spent 4 years continuing doing basically nothing, other than selling the Post Office on the cheap side.

    I'm glad he wasn't anywhere near the levers of powers when the crash hit, he would still be weighing up the pros and cons of what to do now.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2014

    Without the inquiry the Dominic Grieve wouldn't have quashed the original verdicts and ordered new ones.

    A greater acquaintance with the facts is once needed again. It is not for the Attorney General to quash the verdict of a coronial inquisition. It is for the High Court under section 13 of the Coroners Act 1988, albeit that no application can be made without the leave of the Attorney General.

    In any event, if the Inquiry had indeed got to "the truth", why isn't the Inquest, and the parties thereto, simply taking its conclusions at face value? The answer is that the Inquiry did not proceed according to due process in any understood sense of the term. Suppose that the inquest makes findings of fact different to those of the inquiry? A reasonable man will be obliged to accept the verdict of the jury.

    If any demonstration of the sloppiness with which the Inquiry treated its terms of reference is needed, just look at how it dealt with the alterations to the statements by the police. It was as if it had not bothered to read the report of Stuart-Smith LJ, or had decided that his findings were too inconvenient to address.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    I want Germany to win because as a neutral I want the team that has played the best and most exciting football to lift the cup. It might be considered treasonous by some but as someone with a passing interest in football I would much rather see a great skillful foreign team win than a mediocre home nations team. For me football is about entertainment not war by proxy.

    Well said.
    To be fair as a West Ham supporter I kind of have to have that attitude given that 'playing good football' is about the only accolade my team is ever going to win. :-)
    Look on the bright side, West Ham reject, Javier Mascherano is going to play in the World Cup Final tonight.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Vince Cable really is a waste of space. Loads of waffle and not really doing anything decisive.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28282621

    Either he is of the opinion that things are good as they stand (which is a perfectly reasonable position) or that serious action needs to be taken in order to enforce protection of UK companies (again a perfectly reasonable position).

    If you're feeling cynical tinkering can often be put down to "we think things are pretty fine as they are, but saying we're doing nothing is never a good look media-wise.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    Without the inquiry the Dominic Grieve wouldn't have quashed the original verdicts and ordered new ones.

    A greater acquaintance with the facts is once needed again. It is not for the Attorney General to quash the verdict of a coronial inquisition. It is for the High Court under section 13 of the Coroners Act 1988, albeit that no application can be made without the leave of the Attorney General.

    In any event, if the Inquiry had indeed got to "the truth", why isn't the Inquest, and the parties thereto, simply taking its conclusions at face value? The answer is that the Inquiry did not proceed according to due process in any understood sense of the term. Suppose that the inquest makes findings of fact different to those of the inquiry? A reasonable man will be obliged to accept the verdict of the jury.

    If any demonstration of the sloppiness with which the Inquiry treated its terms of reference is needed, just look at how it dealt with the alterations to the statements by the police. It was as if it had not bothered to read the report of Stuart-Smith LJ, or had decided that his findings were too inconvenient to address.
    Poor terminology on my part, he asked the the High Court to quash them.

    As someone who has read the Hillsborough Panel's report there's a reason the courts aren't taking inquiry's report at face value, they want other people to come to the same conclusions as they did independently.

    Taking things at face value in 1989 led to a modern day blood libel against a City and a Football club and "The Truth" being at variance with the facts.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    I will be supporting Germany for two reasons:

    1. The Germans have played much better, and more enjoyable football.
    2. The Germans are our rivals. The Argentinians are our enemies.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Is the Met hiding sex claim files? First indication Dickens dossier on Westminster paedophile ring may have been found

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690121/Is-Met-hiding-sex-claim-files-First-indication-Dickens-dossier-Westminster-paedophile-ring-found.htm

    A lot of ifs and buts and standard DM hype...but if it was actually found, crickey.

    If the police were passed the file, how high does the cover-up have to go?
    Not far at all Mr. Decrepit. The Police can do what they feel they need to then they have to submit the file to the CPS. Back in other words to the government, with no oversight from there on. Actually there is oversight, but HMG will always maintain it is not their role to get involved in individual cases. So we have the beautiful situation where HMG can impose policy but not object if said policy is not followed in an individual case.
    Probably DPP rather than CPS in those days, perhaps? Both report to the Attorney General and the Met to the Home Secretary. And that's betting without Special Branch and MI5.
  • Poor terminology on my part, he asked the the High Court to quash them.

    As someone who has read the Hillsborough Panel's report there's a reason the courts aren't taking inquiry's report at face value, they want other people to come to the same conclusions as they did independently.

    Taking things at face value in 1989 led to a modern day blood libel against a City and a Football club and "The Truth" being at variance with the facts.

    In August 1989, Lord Justice Taylor found that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control". He also found that the great majority of the fans were not drunk or even the worse for drink, and exonerated the fans from any culpability. In fact, he described the theory of the police which cast aspersions on the fans' conduct as a "conspiracy theory".
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    Poor terminology on my part, he asked the the High Court to quash them.

    As someone who has read the Hillsborough Panel's report there's a reason the courts aren't taking inquiry's report at face value, they want other people to come to the same conclusions as they did independently.

    Taking things at face value in 1989 led to a modern day blood libel against a City and a Football club and "The Truth" being at variance with the facts.

    In August 1989, Lord Justice Taylor found that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control". He also found that the great majority of the fans were not drunk or even the worse for drink, and exonerated the fans from any culpability. In fact, he described the theory of the police which cast aspersions on the fans' conduct as a "conspiracy theory".
    The Grandstand/Match of the Day shown that evening, said the same, yet the inquests recorded something different to the facts.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    Thanks to a free bet from ladbrokes I've bet on Thomas Muller to score a hat-trick as well at 50/1.

    Has anyone ever tipped a 50/1 winner on PB before?
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2014

    The Grandstand/Match of the Day shown that evening, said the same, yet the inquests recorded something different to the facts.

    The inquests recorded a verdict of accidental death, unlawful killing and an open verdict having also been left to the juries by the coroners. As the former Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge, sitting with Burnett J and Judge Thornton QC, said, when quashing the verdicts:
    [I]t is not a pre-condition to an order for a further inquest that this court should anticipate that a different verdict to the one already reached will be returned. If a different verdict is likely, then the interests of justice will make it necessary for a fresh inquest to be ordered, but even when significant fresh evidence may serve to confirm the correctness of the earlier verdict, it may sometimes nevertheless be desirable for the full extent of the evidence which tends to confirm the correctness of the verdict to be publicly revealed. [HM Attorney General v HM Coroner of South Yorkshire (West) & Anor [2012] EWHC 3783 (Admin) at [10] ]
    I will await the verdict of the inquest before declaring that the original verdict was "different to the facts".
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Germany.

    I would have more in common with someone from Germany if I met them on the bus tomorrow than I would with someone from Argentina.

    Oh God; does that mean I'm heading for an "in" vote in 2017?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Germany: Better team, not reliant on one player. Also for all the clashes with England in 66, 70, 82, 90, 96, 00 (twice), 01, and 10. I don't recall an incident of German gamesmanship let alone downright cheating ( well ok Neuer must've known it was over the line)unlike Argentina in 66, 86( cheating on stilts ), 98 ( Simeone " shot by a sniper act" when brushed by Beckham). Frankly if Argentina played Mars I'd support the little green men. 3-1 my prediction. Fingers crossed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    The Grandstand/Match of the Day shown that evening, said the same, yet the inquests recorded something different to the facts.

    The inquests recorded a verdict of accidental death, unlawful killing and an open verdict having also been left to the juries by the coroners. As the former Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge, sitting with Burnett J and Judge Thornton QC, said, when quashing the verdicts:
    [I]t is not a pre-condition to an order for a further inquest that this court should anticipate that a different verdict to the one already reached will be returned. If a different verdict is likely, then the interests of justice will make it necessary for a fresh inquest to be ordered, but even when significant fresh evidence may serve to confirm the correctness of the earlier verdict, it may sometimes nevertheless be desirable for the full extent of the evidence which tends to confirm the correctness of the verdict to be publicly revealed. [HM Attorney General v HM Coroner of South Yorkshire (West) & Anor [2012] EWHC 3783 (Admin) at [10] ]
    I will await the verdict of the inquest before declaring that the original verdict was "different to the facts".

    Well the 3.15pm cut off point was shown to be bollocks* according to the medical evidence at the Hillsborough panel.

    *Yes bollocks is a well known, and accepted legal term.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    welshowl said:

    Germany: Better team, not reliant on one player. Also for all the clashes with England in 66, 70, 82, 90, 96, 00 (twice), 01, and 10. I don't recall an incident of German gamesmanship let alone downright cheating ( well ok Neuer must've known it was over the line)unlike Argentina in 66, 86( cheating on stilts ), 98 ( Simeone " shot by a sniper act" when brushed by Beckham). Frankly if Argentina played Mars I'd support the little green men. 3-1 my prediction. Fingers crossed.

    The German that rolled around like he had been shot when Gazza received his yellow card in the Semi in 90 is the closest to German gamesmanship that I can remember.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    Germany: Better team, not reliant on one player. Also for all the clashes with England in 66, 70, 82, 90, 96, 00 (twice), 01, and 10. I don't recall an incident of German gamesmanship let alone downright cheating ( well ok Neuer must've known it was over the line)unlike Argentina in 66, 86( cheating on stilts ), 98 ( Simeone " shot by a sniper act" when brushed by Beckham). Frankly if Argentina played Mars I'd support the little green men. 3-1 my prediction. Fingers crossed.

    The German that rolled around like he had been shot when Gazza received his yellow card in the Semi in 90 is the closest to German gamesmanship that I can remember.
    Yeah, maybe I stretched a point a bit! But Maradona's hand? Unforgivable. Ever. Denies the whole point of even codifying the rules in the first place.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Thanks to a free bet from ladbrokes I've bet on Thomas Muller to score a hat-trick as well at 50/1.

    Has anyone ever tipped a 50/1 winner on PB before?

    If they have, they've kept it quiet.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited July 2014
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Germany: Better team, not reliant on one player. Also for all the clashes with England in 66, 70, 82, 90, 96, 00 (twice), 01, and 10. I don't recall an incident of German gamesmanship let alone downright cheating ( well ok Neuer must've known it was over the line)unlike Argentina in 66, 86( cheating on stilts ), 98 ( Simeone " shot by a sniper act" when brushed by Beckham). Frankly if Argentina played Mars I'd support the little green men. 3-1 my prediction. Fingers crossed.

    The German that rolled around like he had been shot when Gazza received his yellow card in the Semi in 90 is the closest to German gamesmanship that I can remember.
    Yeah, maybe I stretched a point a bit! But Maradona's hand? Unforgivable. Ever. Denies the whole point of even codifying the rules in the first place.
    I've always loved the Germans, the Argies are cheats and deserve to be buggered senseless in tonight's final.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2014

    Well the 3.15pm cut off point was shown to be bollocks* according to the medical evidence at the Hillsborough panel.

    *Yes bollocks is a well known, and accepted legal term.

    The 3.15 cut off point is much misunderstood. It is not the case that no evidence relating to events after 3.15 was considered by the jury, merely that it was held that the cause of death had occurred before 3.15. It is clear that this was a reasonable conclusion that was open to the coroner after the evidence adduced at the mini-inquests. To argue otherwise is to re-write history. The Hillsborough Independent Panel themselves acknowledged, in relation to the 3.15 cut off point, that "[i]t is not possible to establish with certainty that any one individual would or could have survived under different circumstances." For a verdict of unlawful killing to be returned, the jury must be satisfied to the criminal standard of proof that the deceased was unlawfully killed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,935
    edited July 2014
    I'm hoping it is the most despicably vicious final ever. The Battle of Brazil, as it will forever be known. A team of pit-bulls against a Don Revie Leeds side from the 70's. The 8 Argies left on the pitch facing the 7 Germans who can still walk. After 22 minutes....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    corporeal said:

    Vince Cable really is a waste of space. Loads of waffle and not really doing anything decisive.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28282621

    Either he is of the opinion that things are good as they stand (which is a perfectly reasonable position) or that serious action needs to be taken in order to enforce protection of UK companies (again a perfectly reasonable position).

    If you're feeling cynical tinkering can often be put down to "we think things are pretty fine as they are, but saying we're doing nothing is never a good look media-wise.
    You could say that, but this just sums up Cable. Can anybody tell me anything concrete he has been responsible for, good or bad, beyond the Post Office sell off. Even that, was pretty much forced on him and I wonder how much control / input he actually had on it.

    When to coalition is done and dusted, Uncle Vince gets the heave ho, I don't think anybody in 2016 will remember his "achievements", let alone further into the future.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited July 2014

    Well the 3.15pm cut off point was shown to be bollocks* according to the medical evidence at the Hillsborough panel.

    *Yes bollocks is a well known, and accepted legal term.

    The 3.15 cut off point is much misunderstood. It is not the case that no evidence relating to events after 3.15 was considered by the jury, merely that it was held that the cause of death had occurred before 3.15. It is clear that this was a reasonable conclusion that was open to the coroner after the evidence adduced at the mini-inquests. To argue otherwise is to re-write history. The Hillsborough Independent Panel themselves acknowledged, in relation to the 3.15 cut off point, that "[i]t is not possible to establish with certainty that any one individual would or could have survived under different circumstances." For a verdict of unlawful killing to be returned, the jury must be satisfied to the criminal standard of proof that the deceased was unlawfully killed.

    yes everything was perfect and sound, that's why Stefan Popper's verdicts have been quashed.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2014
    Evening all.

    Chez St’Clare will be cheering for the krauts for 4 reasons: - (1) I’ve forgiven them for invading the Channel Isles (2) I have not forgiven the Argies for the Falklands (3) can’t stand that de Kirchner woman and (4) meine deutsche Frau hat mir befohlen, dies zu tun.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Evening all.

    Chez St’Clare will be cheering for the krauts for 4 reasons: - (1) I’ve forgiven them for invading the Channel Isles (2) I have not forgiven the Argies for the Falklands (3) can’t stand that de Kirchner woman and (4) meine deutsche Frau hat mir befohlen, dies zu tun.

    Ha! Edited for grammar?
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2014

    yes everything was perfect and sound, that's why Stefan Popper's verdicts have been quashed.

    You initially claimed the Coroner was re-writing history, but have since (wisely) edited your post. Did the Coroner hear the testimony of the State Pathologist for Northern Ireland, Professor Crane, which was crucial to the Hillsborough Independent Panel's findings, and to why the Divisional Court acceded to the Attorney General's application? No. It was common ground before Lord Justice Taylor that:
    [I]n virtually every case, the cause of death was basically compression of the chest wall - against the bodies of the person immediately around the deceased or against fixed structures such as the walls of the stadium and the crash barriers. In the vast majority of the cases, this pressure caused the condition of traumatic or crush asphyxia - the two terms are synonymous .... If the impediment to breathing is not removed in four to six minutes -– perhaps less if the victim is struggling and thus using up oxygen at a higher rate -– then the brain cells cease to function, unconsciousness supervenes and ultimately the vital centres in the hind brain are damaged and die and then life is no longer possible.
    New medical evidence has emerged, and it is rightly being tested at the new inquest, presided over by a Lord Justice of Appeal, where all the relevant evidence is heard in public and subject to cross-examination by all the parties.

    Never once have I asserted that 'everything was perfect and sound.' You would do better to address the legitimate points I have raised rather than attributing to me strawmen arguments which I have never made and do not believe. Clearly you have difficulties with the facts. The reality is that the situation is far more complex than the vigilantes will allow for. The process and reasoning of the Hillsborough Independent Panel would not have been acceptable in a court of record or inquisition. Dispassionate judgment is needed. Hopefully the new inquests will provide it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Saying they hurt the cause of the right is even sillier. For the first time in decades, the right is outpolling the left. The Lib Dem vote has collapsed (hopefully forever), and UKIP have replaced them as the third party (again hopefully permanently). This is a great development for the right in British politics.

    There's this thing called FPTP. Polls don't matter if it doesn't translate into seats in Parliament. I believe that Miliband will be as bad for the UK as Hollande's first two years were in France. Unfortunately, he lacks the dexterity to execute as elegant a volte face as Hollande has achieved.


    British people are indeed moderate and tolerant, but you mistake moderacy and tolerance for current political fashion. Untrammeled immigration is not a particular demonstration of tolerance, and bakers falling foul of the law for not baking a cake is positively intolerant. Successful parties do not position themselves in the middle ground -they change what the middle ground is.
    I suspect that a Tory only government would be stricter on immigration than the Coalition has been. That said, there are significant economic gains from the right sort of immigration. The objective is how to put in place intelligent controls that maximise the benefit while limiting the damage, and putting in place the necessary programmes to support those who lose while the country gains.

    There are too many racists and fellow travellers in UKIP to give me comfort that UKIP would put in place appropriate designed structures. Farage's nod to the racists in that radio interview gave me deep concern that he does not have the character to be a leader.

    And I very much doubt that the baker will be convicted. You will always get radicals who will seek to exploit the laws. Based on the reporting he did not discriminate against the individual, but chose not to pipe the slogan. That should be a question of free speech.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Interesting quite how much of a difference there is between Labour and everyone else on supporting Argentina.

    What's the basis of that?

    Labour voters more working class and more interested in football and therefore more willing to admire quality players.
    Plus a bit of developing country sympathy, maybe - and maybe it's just me, but I feel it's going to be a bit hard on Latin America to host the games and have Germany walk off with the trophy.
    Blimey. They took the Papacy from Germany... do they need the World Cup as well...?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    yes everything was perfect and sound, that's why Stefan Popper's verdicts have been quashed.

    You initially claimed the Coroner was re-writing history, but have since (wisely) edited your post. Did the Coroner hear the testimony of the State Pathologist for Northern Ireland, Professor Crane, which was crucial to the Hillsborough Independent Panel's findings, and to why the Divisional Court acceded to the Attorney General's application? No. It was common ground before Lord Justice Taylor that:
    [I]n virtually every case, the cause of death was basically compression of the chest wall - against the bodies of the person immediately around the deceased or against fixed structures such as the walls of the stadium and the crash barriers. In the vast majority of the cases, this pressure caused the condition of traumatic or crush asphyxia - the two terms are synonymous .... If the impediment to breathing is not removed in four to six minutes -– perhaps less if the victim is struggling and thus using up oxygen at a higher rate -– then the brain cells cease to function, unconsciousness supervenes and ultimately the vital centres in the hind brain are damaged and die and then life is no longer possible.
    New medical evidence has emerged, and it is rightly being tested at the new inquest, presided over by a Lord Justice of Appeal, where all the relevant evidence is heard in public and subject to cross-examination by all the parties.

    Never once have I asserted that 'everything was perfect and sound.' You would do better to address the legitimate points I have raised rather than attributing to me strawmen arguments which I have never made and do not believe. Clearly you have difficulties with the facts. The reality is that the situation is far more complex than the vigilantes will allow for. The process and reasoning of the Hillsborough Independent Panel would not have been acceptable in a court of record or inquisition. Dispassionate judgment is needed. Hopefully the new inquests will provide it.

    Considering your opening contribution to this topic was

    The Hillsborough Inquiry, despite the absurd degree of praise that it received at the time of its publication, was an appalling and unnecessary charade.

    Perhaps you should review your own straw man accusations.
  • Considering your opening contribution to this topic was

    The Hillsborough Inquiry, despite the absurd degree of praise that it received at the time of its publication, was an appalling and unnecessary charade.

    Perhaps you should review your own straw man accusations.

    I stand by that remark. It was a charade because its process was flawed, and its reasoning sloppy and shallow in several areas. It was unnecessary because the only inquiry necessary was within the Attorney General's Office, and the only thing it should have set out to determine was whether there was a basis for an application to the High Court under the Coroners Act 1988, section 13. If you cannot see the difference between that position and asserting the completely different position that 'everything was perfect and sound', then there is no point in having a discussion. As ever, many are incapable of understanding nuance when it comes to Hillsborough.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Studio & suits for the Beeb vs Shirt sleeves and a table on the beach for ITV !
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Hmm Germany are favourites, but not particularly convinced any of the odds are wrong for the match overall tonight.

    No bet for me, unlike last night when I couldn't believe the 1.88 on the Dutch to win when they were 1-0 up !
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited July 2014

    Considering your opening contribution to this topic was

    The Hillsborough Inquiry, despite the absurd degree of praise that it received at the time of its publication, was an appalling and unnecessary charade.

    Perhaps you should review your own straw man accusations.

    I stand by that remark. It was a charade because its process was flawed, and its reasoning sloppy and shallow in several areas. It was unnecessary because the only inquiry necessary was within the Attorney General's Office, and the only thing it should have set out to determine was whether there was a basis for an application to the High Court under the Coroners Act 1988, section 13. If you cannot see the difference between that position and asserting the completely different position that 'everything was perfect and sound', then there is no point in having a discussion. As ever, many are incapable of understanding nuance when it comes to Hillsborough.
    Understood, you don't make straw man observations, except when you do, but you'll accuse other people of the same crime.

    The inquiry was needed to look into other aspects, such as the conduct of the police and emergency services.

    I agree we end this conversation, and you take the time to acquaint yourself with Matthew 7:3
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Charles said:



    Saying they hurt the cause of the right is even sillier. For the first time in decades, the right is outpolling the left. The Lib Dem vote has collapsed (hopefully forever), and UKIP have replaced them as the third party (again hopefully permanently). This is a great development for the right in British politics.

    There's this thing called FPTP. Polls don't matter if it doesn't translate into seats in Parliament. I believe that Miliband will be as bad for the UK as Hollande's first two years were in France. Unfortunately, he lacks the dexterity to execute as elegant a volte face as Hollande has achieved.


    British people are indeed moderate and tolerant, but you mistake moderacy and tolerance for current political fashion. Untrammeled immigration is not a particular demonstration of tolerance, and bakers falling foul of the law for not baking a cake is positively intolerant. Successful parties do not position themselves in the middle ground -they change what the middle ground is.
    I suspect that a Tory only government would be stricter on immigration than the Coalition has been. That said, there are significant economic gains from the right sort of immigration. The objective is how to put in place intelligent controls that maximise the benefit while limiting the damage, and putting in place the necessary programmes to support those who lose while the country gains.

    There are too many racists and fellow travellers in UKIP to give me comfort that UKIP would put in place appropriate designed structures. Farage's nod to the racists in that radio interview gave me deep concern that he does not have the character to be a leader.

    And I very much doubt that the baker will be convicted. You will always get radicals who will seek to exploit the laws. Based on the reporting he did not discriminate against the individual, but chose not to pipe the slogan. That should be a question of free speech.

    Supporters of all parties said they would prefer to live next door to Germans than Romanians... how people can castigate Farage after that poll came to light is beyond me
  • Hewitt wins first set vs Karlovic so sadly Morris' bet is down the proverbial.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited July 2014
    Well I didn't know that (and yes I know the right wing nut jobs have been pushing the conspiracy angles for ages on this, but still it is quite incredible).

    As of end 2013, Presidents of ABC News, CNN, and CBS News were married or blood related i.e brother/sister to senior officials in Obama’s White House. Plus there are even more married/related people who are senior for either side of the equation.

    And we worry about our politicians being too close to media barons. Imagine having the close family to the heads of the BBC, ITV and Sky News all working for Cameron.

    From my knowledge the only similar situation is Cameron hiring that idiot Oliver, whose wife is a pretty lowly newsreader at the BBC.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    corporeal said:

    Vince Cable really is a waste of space. Loads of waffle and not really doing anything decisive.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28282621

    Either he is of the opinion that things are good as they stand (which is a perfectly reasonable position) or that serious action needs to be taken in order to enforce protection of UK companies (again a perfectly reasonable position).

    If you're feeling cynical tinkering can often be put down to "we think things are pretty fine as they are, but saying we're doing nothing is never a good look media-wise.
    You could say that, but this just sums up Cable. Can anybody tell me anything concrete he has been responsible for, good or bad, beyond the Post Office sell off. Even that, was pretty much forced on him and I wonder how much control / input he actually had on it.

    When to coalition is done and dusted, Uncle Vince gets the heave ho, I don't think anybody in 2016 will remember his "achievements", let alone further into the future.
    *shrugs* Give me access to cabinet minutes, coalition negotiations, etc and you might be able to properly answer the question. Without that, it's hard to say. (Which is a dull answer but fairly true).
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    I'm backing Argentina, I don't know why. Germany are a good team but their style still doesn't excite me.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    I'm backing Argentina, I don't know why. Germany are a good team but their style still doesn't excite me.

    The side that defeated Brazil 7-1 doesn't excite you?

    Tell me, have you been diagnosed anhedonic?
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    Obviously the Falklands is still a factor for some.

    Why Tories are so passionate about Thatcher and the Falklands war, I have never understood. From what I remember, the Thatcher government cut back protection of the Falklands and the Argentinians invaded. Then the government put together a fleet of ships to get them back and after a difficult mission ( which nearly failed), we had lost 255 of are armed forces, with hundreds made disabled for the rest of their lifes.

    On a slightly different note, this morning newspaper allegations that the Thatcher government covered up for child abusers within their ranks, might challenge even Thatcher fanatics to still think of her government in a good light, IF the allegations are true. If there is any truth to the allegations and this is revealed prior to May 2015, I would not want to be a Tory candidate in a marginal constituency. It will affect them, even if this happened 30 years ago.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    corporeal said:

    corporeal said:

    Vince Cable really is a waste of space. Loads of waffle and not really doing anything decisive.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28282621

    Either he is of the opinion that things are good as they stand (which is a perfectly reasonable position) or that serious action needs to be taken in order to enforce protection of UK companies (again a perfectly reasonable position).

    If you're feeling cynical tinkering can often be put down to "we think things are pretty fine as they are, but saying we're doing nothing is never a good look media-wise.
    You could say that, but this just sums up Cable. Can anybody tell me anything concrete he has been responsible for, good or bad, beyond the Post Office sell off. Even that, was pretty much forced on him and I wonder how much control / input he actually had on it.

    When to coalition is done and dusted, Uncle Vince gets the heave ho, I don't think anybody in 2016 will remember his "achievements", let alone further into the future.
    *shrugs* Give me access to cabinet minutes, coalition negotiations, etc and you might be able to properly answer the question. Without that, it's hard to say. (Which is a dull answer but fairly true).
    Compare and contrast Steve Webb.

    Also, I bet your bottom dollar is Vince's mass of ideas were constantly getting shot down we would hear about it. It isn't exactly unknown that he likes to make sure his opinions are well known by friendly journalists.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    Charles said:



    Saying they hurt the cause of the right is even sillier. For the first time in decades, the right is outpolling the left. The Lib Dem vote has collapsed (hopefully forever), and UKIP have replaced them as the third party (again hopefully permanently). This is a great development for the right in British politics.

    There's this thing called FPTP. Polls don't matter if it doesn't translate into seats in Parliament. I believe that Miliband will be as bad for the UK as Hollande's first two years were in France. Unfortunately, he lacks the dexterity to execute as elegant a volte face as Hollande has achieved.


    British people are indeed moderate and tolerant, but you mistake moderacy and tolerance for current political fashion. Untrammeled immigration is not a particular demonstration of tolerance, and bakers falling foul of the law for not baking a cake is positively intolerant. Successful parties do not position themselves in the middle ground -they change what the middle ground is.
    I suspect that a Tory only government would be stricter on immigration than the Coalition has been. That said, there are significant economic gains from the right sort of immigration. The objective is how to put in place intelligent controls that maximise the benefit while limiting the damage, and putting in place the necessary programmes to support those who lose while the country gains.

    There are too many racists and fellow travellers in UKIP to give me comfort that UKIP would put in place appropriate designed structures. Farage's nod to the racists in that radio interview gave me deep concern that he does not have the character to be a leader.

    And I very much doubt that the baker will be convicted. You will always get radicals who will seek to exploit the laws. Based on the reporting he did not discriminate against the individual, but chose not to pipe the slogan. That should be a question of free speech.
    Supporters of all parties said they would prefer to live next door to Germans than Romanians... how people can castigate Farage after that poll came to light is beyond me

    Because he quite deliberately made a unpleasant remark that nodded towards racism.

    A leader should help us achieve our best, not pander to the worst.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Conservatives selected Amanda Milling today. She’s a Cllr in Rossendale

    Labour shortlist for Salford and Eccles: Rebecca Long Bailey (solicitor, backed by Unite, Salford Mayor and former council leader, from Cheshire), Sue Pugh (local Cllr, wife of NEC member), Sophie Taylor (Trafford Cllr)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:



    Saying they hurt the cause of the right is even sillier. For the first time in decades, the right is outpolling the left. The Lib Dem vote has collapsed (hopefully forever), and UKIP have replaced them as the third party (again hopefully permanently). This is a great development for the right in British politics.

    There's this thing called FPTP. Polls don't matter if it doesn't translate into seats in Parliament. I believe that Miliband will be as bad for the UK as Hollande's first two years were in France. Unfortunately, he lacks the dexterity to execute as elegant a volte face as Hollande has achieved.


    British people are indeed moderate and tolerant, but you mistake moderacy and tolerance for current political fashion. Untrammeled immigration is not a particular demonstration of tolerance, and bakers falling foul of the law for not baking a cake is positively intolerant. Successful parties do not position themselves in the middle ground -they change what the middle ground is.
    I suspect that a Tory only government would be stricter on immigration than the Coalition has been. That said, there are significant economic gains from the right sort of immigration. The objective is how to put in place intelligent controls that maximise the benefit while limiting the damage, and putting in place the necessary programmes to support those who lose while the country gains.

    There are too many racists and fellow travellers in UKIP to give me comfort that UKIP would put in place appropriate designed structures. Farage's nod to the racists in that radio interview gave me deep concern that he does not have the character to be a leader.

    And I very much doubt that the baker will be convicted. You will always get radicals who will seek to exploit the laws. Based on the reporting he did not discriminate against the individual, but chose not to pipe the slogan. That should be a question of free speech.
    Supporters of all parties said they would prefer to live next door to Germans than Romanians... how people can castigate Farage after that poll came to light is beyond me
    Because he quite deliberately made a unpleasant remark that nodded towards racism.

    A leader should help us achieve our best, not pander to the worst.

    No he didn't, he was asked who he would rather live next door to and he answered in the way that most of the country, no matter who they vote for, would have

    No need for the grandiose statements, get over yourself
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited July 2014
    How amusing if somewhat predictable the poll is. Far more predictable than the garb that Alan Shearer is wearing tonight on BBC1. Is someone trying to wind him up getting him to dress like a junior stockroom assistant? Someone should tell him stripes and spots never mix and is that jacket really two sizes too small or what?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    hucks67 said:

    On a slightly different note, this morning newspaper allegations that the Thatcher government covered up for child abusers within their ranks, might challenge even Thatcher fanatics to still think of her government in a good light, IF the allegations are true. If there is any truth to the allegations and this is revealed prior to May 2015, I would not want to be a Tory candidate in a marginal constituency. It will affect them, even if this happened 30 years ago.

    I doubt it will be Thatcher that will be the major issue to be honest.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808

    @LuckyGuy

    The Hillsborough inquiry was chaired by a non legal type, the Bishop of Liverpool.

    Your suggestion that Jeremy Paxman chairs the Paedo inquiry is a complete non starter.

    Newsnight didn't run the Jimmy Savile story and smeared Lord McAlpine as a paedo, which ultimately saw the resignation of the BBC Director-General.

    So he'd be tainted from the start.

    Interesting info thanks. Yes, I suppose Paxman or any BBC insider would be unsuitable. Speaking of Bishops, perhaps Archbishop of York John Sentamu would be good.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Guess who's on Higuain FGS?
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    Guess who's on Higuain FGS?

    I get the feeling Higuain probably isn't.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    Higuain is a French-Argentinian.

    No wonder I hate him.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    Guess who's on Higuain FGS?

    I get the feeling Higuain probably isn't.
    *Like*
This discussion has been closed.