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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Latest projections from Oxford’s Stephen Fisher have the ba

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  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    edited June 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    Are there any polls out today >?

    Yes, Lukasz Kubot lost in straight sets to Milos Raonic of Canada :).
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited June 2014
    @Charles
    "I thought it was 100 days? "

    We are overdue a "flu" epidemic, if there is a betting market, this winter would be a hot favorite.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    Half-time - Colombia 1-0 Uruguay - fantastic goal!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It sounds much like the London I remember from 30 years ago, though probably a higher percentage of passengers were white then. Londoners have had a reputation for rudeness that is only exceeded by Parisiens, New Yorkers and Hong Kong Chinese.

    I see a fair number of Somalis in Leicester and have found them to have the rather formal manners that one encounters with most Africans. African cultures have an etiquette of their own, and generally are very polite, though often in a slightly rigid way.

    I am told that there is no equivalent word for please in Cantonese and having eaten many times at the legendary Wong Kei, I believe it: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2014/feb/24/rudest-restaurant-london-wong-kei

    But while the words are different, and Chinese people speak with a rather fast cadence that can appear rude, I find that on the whole this is cultural misunderstanding rather than rudeness.

    The rudeness and boorishness that I encounter is mostly of the traditional British variety. We have a culture that can be very affected in its manners and also riotously abusive in other contexts. Context is everything with manners and the rules can be arcane.
    Socrates said:

    Fisher basically takes the current polls and assumes gradual swingback, so when it doesn't happen the prediction gradually moves towards the current polls.

    What do we think tonight's polls will have? A bump for hero Dave, a dip for for defeated Dave, or nothing very much? A small bump that reverts next week is my guess.

    Socrates said:



    Crowded, multicultural London is a rude, selfish place. People need to learn some bloody manners.

    Not my experience, in general, and I live in a busy, multicultural area and catch the bus along the Holloway Road every day. People often stand up for each other and the general culture is to rub along, a bit self-preoccupied but civil enough. Nottingham is much the same. Think you were just unlucky and perhaps projected it onto your expectations.

    I take the tube every workday, and it's about 50-50 whether an elderly person gets offered their seat. Given that there are about 20 people in eyeshot of them, that means only one in forty people has decent manners. It's certainly very, very different to where I grew up. You'd be socially ostracised if you didn't give it up.

    I also find that the Somalis are by far the rudest group in terms of pushing past people. (I have a friend who lives near a lot of them so I often get a bus with a lot on.) It's like they don't even have the concept of manners in their culture.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Smarmeron, I said 'as is'.

    I support the basic principle, but I do believe without change it's unaffordable. I'm sure some backroom changes could save something, but we may also end up looking at taxing 'unhealthy' activities, having charges for self-inflicted or partially self-inflicted conditions (ie, drunk who falls over and hurts himself) and the removal of certain procedures altogether (nobody will miss tattoo removal being axed but other areas, IVF, say, would be more contentious).

    I doubt much of that, perhaps excepting increased taxation, will occur. Politicians will try and muddle through, the service will worsen, and eventually it'll just collapse. Well, that's my forecast.

    I've been told that the NHS is choosing inappropriate long-term usage of cheap drugs and ignoring the fact that there will be nádty side effects as a result. Additionally they are moving to surgery in some cases vs expensive drugs thát could avoid procedures with a double digit mortality rate
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Uruguay look OK - but they'd be better off with a truly world class #1A striker up front.

    Do they have anyone like that ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    On topic, Prof Fisher has in the past been quite bullish on the Tory chances, so the fact it is getting tighter is interesting.

    Stephen Fisher uses as his base UKPR's averages of the recent polls (theirs and others'), adjusting these for a number of factors in his model, including clawback by the incumbent part of Government, a "Shy Tory" factor, etc.

    The reduction of around 10-12 in his forecast of Tory seats and a largely corresponding increase in Labour seats simply reflects an approximate 2%-3% shift in the polls over recent weeks.

    Ah thanks
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Mr. Smarmeron, I said 'as is'.

    I support the basic principle, but I do believe without change it's unaffordable. I'm sure some backroom changes could save something, but we may also end up looking at taxing 'unhealthy' activities, having charges for self-inflicted or partially self-inflicted conditions (ie, drunk who falls over and hurts himself) and the removal of certain procedures altogether (nobody will miss tattoo removal being axed but other areas, IVF, say, would be more contentious).

    I doubt much of that, perhaps excepting increased taxation, will occur. Politicians will try and muddle through, the service will worsen, and eventually it'll just collapse. Well, that's my forecast.

    The problem is, an extra £15 bn isn't available. Taxes are as high as they can go, and there are endless claims on the public purse.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Pulpstar said:

    Are there any polls out today >?

    Yes
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Morris_Dancer

    More backroom efficiency savings might be the way forward, though I thought they had all been achieved with the reorganisation?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles
    "I thought it was 100 days? "

    We are overdue a "flu" epidemic, if there is a betting market, this winter would be a hot favorite.

    Do you know anything about the epidemiology of influenza? Or are you just making stuff up?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    There's also the obesity time bomb. From the other day.

    Three in four over-65s overweight

    Doctors warn of knock-on health problems as figures show 5.8m people aged 65 and over in England are overweight


    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/three-quarters-over-65s-overweight
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Pulpstar said:

    Uruguay look OK - but they'd be better off with a truly world class #1A striker up front.

    Do they have anyone like that ?

    Uruguay's attack lacks teeth and bite

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    edited June 2014

    Pulpstar said:

    Are there any polls out today >?

    Yes
    And Jerzy Janowicz lost to Spain's Tommy Robredo in five sets :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. F, indeed, our deficit remains enormous and our debt is already huge.

    But if Miliband wins, you will be proved wrong about taxes being as high as they can go, I suspect.

    Mr. Charles, sounds a little like potholes. (Bear with me). They can be repaired quickly and cheaply, or more expensively. The expensive way lasts much longer. But because local councils don't have the cash now and didn't mend the roads when the economy was better they're trapped in a vicious circle of just affording the quick, cheap repairs which need doing again in a few years.

    Mr. Smarmeron, do I detect a small hint of sarcasm? :p

    Backroom efficiencies can help, but will not be enough, I suspect.
  • viewcode said:



    viewcode - I have Stephen Fisher's weekly numbers covering the past 3 months (from 25 March) If you care to email me at peterfromputney@gmail.com I'll send these to you.

    I've emailed you, Peter. Please do not disclose my name nor address.

    I've replied to your email.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    There's also the obesity time bomb. From the other day.

    Three in four over-65s overweight

    Doctors warn of knock-on health problems as figures show 5.8m people aged 65 and over in England are overweight


    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/three-quarters-over-65s-overweight
    Healthier lifestyles may, in turn, put pressure on the pensions budget.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Eagles, it'd be ironic if obesity killed off people before they can claim too much in pensions or develop expensive (and horrible) Alzheimer's.

    Whilst not a pie-muncher or cake enthusiast myself, I dislike the notion of a broad brush tax on such things. It may be necessary, alas.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Charles

    Last winter had a particularly mild "flu season" according to what I had read. If this is incorrect, then I am happy to be informed.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @MorrisDancer

    The consequences are not cost. The consequences are serious healthy issues because patîeñts are bring prescribed inappropriate medication in ways that is explicitly recommended against.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    There's also the obesity time bomb. From the other day.

    Three in four over-65s overweight

    Doctors warn of knock-on health problems as figures show 5.8m people aged 65 and over in England are overweight


    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/three-quarters-over-65s-overweight
    Healthier lifestyles may, in turn, put pressure on the pensions budget.
    What we need is more immigrants paying more taxes to the treasury to help fund looking after our OAPs

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    edited June 2014
    Mr. Charles, are you posting from Iberia? You seem to have an unusual accent today.

    Ah, I stand corrected.

    Edited extra bit: anyway, I'm off for the night.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles

    Last winter had a particularly mild "flu season" according to what I had read. If this is incorrect, then I am happy to be informed.

    That is true, but I was taking issue with your use of the word "overdue"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    There's also the obesity time bomb. From the other day.

    Three in four over-65s overweight

    Doctors warn of knock-on health problems as figures show 5.8m people aged 65 and over in England are overweight


    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/three-quarters-over-65s-overweight
    Healthier lifestyles may, in turn, put pressure on the pensions budget.
    What we need is more immigrants paying more taxes to the treasury to help fund looking after our OAPs

    Isn't that just a massive human ponzi scheme ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    @thesundaytimes: Tomorrow's front page:

    'Dead-hand' Miliband blasted by top adviser


    twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/482985733675044865
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Pulpstar said:

    Uruguay look OK - but they'd be better off with a truly world class #1A striker up front.

    Do they have anyone like that ?

    Uruguay's attack lacks teeth and bite

    But if they go out, will they have a shoulder to cry on?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    There's also the obesity time bomb. From the other day.

    Three in four over-65s overweight

    Doctors warn of knock-on health problems as figures show 5.8m people aged 65 and over in England are overweight


    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/three-quarters-over-65s-overweight
    Healthier lifestyles may, in turn, put pressure on the pensions budget.
    What we need is more immigrants paying more taxes to the treasury to help fund looking after our OAPs

    Britain doesn't suffer from a shortage of immigrants. And, they will grow old in turn.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Pulpstar said:

    Uruguay look OK - but they'd be better off with a truly world class #1A striker up front.

    Do they have anyone like that ?

    Uruguay's attack lacks teeth and bite

    But if they go out, will they have a shoulder to cry on?
    My favourite joke of the week

    statistically you are more likely to be bitten by Luis Suarez than a shark
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Charles, are you posting from Iberia? You seem to have an unusual accent today.

    Ah, I stand corrected.

    Edited extra bit: anyway, I'm off for the night.

    Mr. Charles, are you posting from Iberia? You seem to have an unusual accent today.

    Ah, I stand corrected.

    Edited extra bit: anyway, I'm off for the night.

    No, just from an iPad' but I have fat fingers
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Charles

    You are of course correct that the use of "overdue" is wrong, but it is used widely by the people tasked with assessing the likely-hood of such an event.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Mr. F, indeed, our deficit remains enormous and our debt is already huge.

    But if Miliband wins, you will be proved wrong about taxes being as high as they can go, I suspect.

    Mr. Charles, sounds a little like potholes. (Bear with me). They can be repaired quickly and cheaply, or more expensively. The expensive way lasts much longer. But because local councils don't have the cash now and didn't mend the roads when the economy was better they're trapped in a vicious circle of just affording the quick, cheap repairs which need doing again in a few years.

    Mr. Smarmeron, do I detect a small hint of sarcasm? :p

    Backroom efficiencies can help, but will not be enough, I suspect.

    He'd raise tax rates. It's debatable whether tax revenues would rise.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    2-0!!!

    Uruguay = England?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    James Rodrigues for golden boot?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Uruguay betlsip in tatters. James Rodriguez is some player.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Pulpstar said:

    Uruguay look OK - but they'd be better off with a truly world class #1A striker up front.

    Do they have anyone like that ?

    Uruguay's attack lacks teeth and bite

    But if they go out, will they have a shoulder to cry on?
    My favourite joke of the week

    statistically you are more likely to be bitten by Luis Suarez than a shark
    He's the Hannibal Lecter of football.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    2-0!!!

    Uruguay = England?

    Without Suarez they are about the same level I think.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Uruguay look OK - but they'd be better off with a truly world class #1A striker up front.

    Do they have anyone like that ?

    Uruguay's attack lacks teeth and bite

    But if they go out, will they have a shoulder to cry on?
    My favourite joke of the week

    statistically you are more likely to be bitten by Luis Suarez than a shark
    He's the Hannibal Lecter of football.
    He's just misunderstood.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Uruguay look OK - but they'd be better off with a truly world class #1A striker up front.

    Do they have anyone like that ?

    Uruguay's attack lacks teeth and bite

    But if they go out, will they have a shoulder to cry on?
    My favourite joke of the week

    statistically you are more likely to be bitten by Luis Suarez than a shark
    He's the Hannibal Lecter of football.
    He's just misunderstood.
    He's having an old friend for dinner - L(o)uis Friend :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    I've got a bet (That should be voided) on Falcao to get the golden boot. On the strength of Columbia's performance it might have had a chance if he'd have played in the tourney.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    LOL Labours GP negotiation kicks in to fook the NHS

    The NHS is toxic for the Tories for a good reason
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Evening all. Anything interesting happen today?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    I wonder if Prof. Fisher’s predictions will magically gradually change towards the election as it becomes clear his model was nonsense?

    Just like i think the ARSE will have to move as swingback is lower than both models assume
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    I wonder if Prof. Fisher’s predictions will magically gradually change towards the election as it becomes clear his model was nonsense?

    Just like i think the ARSE will have to move as swingback is lower than both models assume

    The Fisher predictions are basically a measure of if swingback is meeting, exceeding, or below expectations. Not unhelpful even if you disagree with his expectations.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    A non-political rpely - my understanding (Fox or others may know more) is that greater longevity hasn't in fact been accompanied by a longer period of being very ill. Most of us get by OK with the odd aches and pains and mishaps until the last few years, when we go downhill sharply (and loads of money is spent on us). It's quite common to see people in their 60s and 70s who are very active - I'm 64 myself and don't feel less healthy than when I was 34. I've been lucky, but it's not a very rare luck.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Although he can’t lose – he can make headline grabbing nonsense forecasts further out then his model magically adjusts to predict the actual result by the time of the election)as someone pointed out on UKPR
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    The level of swingback from here to the next general election is a known unknown.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    It could - though I find it unlikely be negative. No irrefutable law that means it has to occur at all in fact.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    It should be noted that Prof Fisher was one of the geniuses behind the very accurate exit poll at the last general election.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It is true that the vast majority of health costs are in the last two years of life, so longer lives are not inevitably more medically expensive. The nature of diseases change though, and certain diseases of age are quite expensive such as dementia.

    Obesity does shorten lives, but the consequent shortening of working lives due to ill health largely offsets this. The economic costs of such illnesses are often the cost of disability rather than the cost of medical theraputics. In other words: lost productive years e.g. due to diabetes are often more costly to the state and individual than the cost of healthy years of retirement.

    Mr. Eagles, I wonder if demographics now make the NHS as is simply unaffordable.

    With an ageing population we aren't getting an extra decade or two of healthy life and paying taxes, but a decade or two of ill health and costing money.

    Of course, Labour's botched GP 'negotiation' of a decade ago really didn't help, but even without that the demographic changes are only costing us more.

    A non-political rpely - my understanding (Fox or others may know more) is that greater longevity hasn't in fact been accompanied by a longer period of being very ill. Most of us get by OK with the odd aches and pains and mishaps until the last few years, when we go downhill sharply (and loads of money is spent on us). It's quite common to see people in their 60s and 70s who are very active - I'm 64 myself and don't feel less healthy than when I was 34. I've been lucky, but it's not a very rare luck.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014

    I wonder if Prof. Fisher’s predictions will magically gradually change towards the election as it becomes clear his model was nonsense?

    I don't expect you are interested in the answer, because it seems your only motivation is to rubbish an analysis which you don't like (and probably don't understand), but here goes:

    Yes, as the election gets closer the output from Prof Fisher's model (but not the model itself, of course) will change, in two ways. Firstly the central forecast of the vote shares of the various parties will get closer to what the opinion polls are saying at the time. Secondly, the error bars on that central forecast will narrow.

    This is commonsense: polls a long way out from an election are a less good guide to the final result than polls very close to the election. What Prof. Fisher has done is quantify that effect by analysing how close polls in the past have been to the final result at various intervals before the election, and in which direction they have tended to shift.

    It's a superb piece of work and extremely useful for political punters.

    It is NOT a forecast, but an analysis of the predictive power of opinion polls.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    ED MILIBAND’S policy chief has launched a coded attack on the Labour leader for creating “cynical” policies designed only to “chime with focus groups”.

    Jon Cruddas accused Miliband’s inner circle of wielding a “profound dead hand at the centre” to stop the party adopting bold policies.

    He attacked Labour’s plans to cut jobseeker’s allowance from those aged 18 to 21 unless they undergo training as “punitive” and suggested welfare cuts had been adopted only to placate the media and floating voters.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/Politics/article1428253.ece
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    Between 1816 and 1822, Uruguay was either occupied or controlled by Portuguese Brazil, and between 1822 and 1828 by independent Brazil.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    ED MILIBAND’S policy chief has launched a coded attack on the Labour leader for creating “cynical” policies designed only to “chime with focus groups”.

    Jon Cruddas accused Miliband’s inner circle of wielding a “profound dead hand at the centre” to stop the party adopting bold policies.

    He attacked Labour’s plans to cut jobseeker’s allowance from those aged 18 to 21 unless they undergo training as “punitive” and suggested welfare cuts had been adopted only to placate the media and floating voters.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/Politics/article1428253.ece

    Nah, nothing to see here. After all, it's one of the usual suspects. OK, he happens to be Ed's policy chief. Admittedly it's a bit unusual to have your own policy chief rubbish your policies, but Ed has always said he wants a new approach.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    THERESA MAY has revealed that police investigations into life-threatening crimes and sexual attacks are being dropped at the rate of one a week in London alone as a result of the failure to give police stronger internet surveillance powers.

    The home secretary said Scotland Yard had been forced to abandon 12 serious criminal investigations in just three months because detectives could not obtain communications data on the suspects. The cases included sexual offences, at least one kidnapping and other cases where there was a threat to life.

    In an article for The Sunday Times’s website, the home secretary pressed other ministers to act, declaring that fresh powers were “needed desperately” to combat “real and deadly threats”.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1428205.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_06_28
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    Full-time Colombia 2-0 Uruguay
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Pulpstar said:

    It could - though I find it unlikely be negative. No irrefutable law that means it has to occur at all in fact.

    Regression to the mean?

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    ED MILIBAND’S policy chief has launched a coded attack on the Labour leader for creating “cynical” policies designed only to “chime with focus groups”.

    Jon Cruddas accused Miliband’s inner circle of wielding a “profound dead hand at the centre” to stop the party adopting bold policies.

    He attacked Labour’s plans to cut jobseeker’s allowance from those aged 18 to 21 unless they undergo training as “punitive” and suggested welfare cuts had been adopted only to placate the media and floating voters.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/Politics/article1428253.ece

    Nah, nothing to see here. After all, it's one of the usual suspects. OK, he happens to be Ed's policy chief. Admittedly it's a bit unusual to have your own policy chief rubbish your policies, but Ed has always said he wants a new approach.
    There's quite a few quotes from Cruddas that I'm sure Dave and the Tories will be quoting at Ed.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Prof Fisher 9/5/14 CON Maj chance 36% Lab 18% chance

    27/6/14 29% to 22%

    crossover by August at that rate!!!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Ishmael_X said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It could - though I find it unlikely be negative. No irrefutable law that means it has to occur at all in fact.

    Regression to the mean?

    How does regression to the mean come into it ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    ED MILIBAND’S policy chief has launched a coded attack on the Labour leader for creating “cynical” policies designed only to “chime with focus groups”.

    Jon Cruddas accused Miliband’s inner circle of wielding a “profound dead hand at the centre” to stop the party adopting bold policies.

    He attacked Labour’s plans to cut jobseeker’s allowance from those aged 18 to 21 unless they undergo training as “punitive” and suggested welfare cuts had been adopted only to placate the media and floating voters.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/Politics/article1428253.ece

    Nah, nothing to see here. After all, it's one of the usual suspects. OK, he happens to be Ed's policy chief. Admittedly it's a bit unusual to have your own policy chief rubbish your policies, but Ed has always said he wants a new approach.
    Wheras Camerons advisors are either going to jail or being arrested
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It could - though I find it unlikely be negative. No irrefutable law that means it has to occur at all in fact.

    Regression to the mean?

    How does regression to the mean come into it ?
    I had just realised that it doesn't, too late to edit or delete my witless post. Sorry.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    The Survation poll for the Mail On Sunday found that 47% of people now want to leave the EU, compared to 39% who want to stay in.

    The poll for the paper also found the more people now believe that David Cameron will be unable to repatriate the powers he wants from the EU before holding a referendum - 44% compared to 15% who believe he will be able to.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/euro-leaders-cowards-over-juncker-vote-112003696.html#tZZihui
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited June 2014
    Obviously she's going to get abuse from MI5 agents posting as Nats

    Kenny Farquharson ‏@KennyFarq 44s

    This weekend's Scotland on Sunday front page

    pic.twitter.com/ZQNT3qLhRE
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited June 2014

    The Survation poll for the Mail On Sunday found that 47% of people now want to leave the EU, compared to 39% who want to stay in.

    The poll for the paper also found the more people now believe that David Cameron will be unable to repatriate the powers he wants from the EU before holding a referendum - 44% compared to 15% who believe he will be able to.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/euro-leaders-cowards-over-juncker-vote-112003696.html#tZZihui

    Well the EU has definitely had an "Event" in the last few days - what are the changes from the last poll ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Pulpstar said:

    The Survation poll for the Mail On Sunday found that 47% of people now want to leave the EU, compared to 39% who want to stay in.

    The poll for the paper also found the more people now believe that David Cameron will be unable to repatriate the powers he wants from the EU before holding a referendum - 44% compared to 15% who believe he will be able to.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/euro-leaders-cowards-over-juncker-vote-112003696.html#tZZihui

    Well the EU has definitely had an "Event" in the last few days - what are the changes from the last poll ?
    Changes are stay no change, leave +1
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Pulpstar said:

    The Survation poll for the Mail On Sunday found that 47% of people now want to leave the EU, compared to 39% who want to stay in.

    The poll for the paper also found the more people now believe that David Cameron will be unable to repatriate the powers he wants from the EU before holding a referendum - 44% compared to 15% who believe he will be able to.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/euro-leaders-cowards-over-juncker-vote-112003696.html#tZZihui

    Well the EU has definitely had an "Event" in the last few days - what are the changes from the last poll ?
    Changes are stay no change, leave +1
    Hmm... Looks like MoE to me - you'd have thought the Junker episode would probably turn a few people away from the EU so expect more than +1 leave..

    Didn't another poll find we want to stay in ?

    Does anyone outside of pb.com/guido/the westminster village pay any attention whatsoever ?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014
    Incidentally, an interesting scenario occurred to me. Suppose Dave gets his majority, tries to renegotiate, doesn't get much traction, and therefore regretfully recommends that we leave the EU.

    If, in the referendum, the Stay In side then win: what happens next?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Incidentally, an interesting scenario occurred to me. Suppose Dave gets his majority, tries to renegotiate, doesn't get much traction, and therefore recommends that we leave the EU.

    If, in the referendum, the Stay In side then win: what happens next?

    Dave will go down the European model, and continue to hold a referendum until he gets the right result
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    The Survation poll for the Mail On Sunday found that 47% of people now want to leave the EU, compared to 39% who want to stay in.

    The poll for the paper also found the more people now believe that David Cameron will be unable to repatriate the powers he wants from the EU before holding a referendum - 44% compared to 15% who believe he will be able to.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/euro-leaders-cowards-over-juncker-vote-112003696.html#tZZihui

    Wonder if they'll have a voting intention with that as well?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    We stay in. Surely though it would be the end of Camerons leadership.

    Incidentally, an interesting scenario occurred to me. Suppose Dave gets his majority, tries to renegotiate, doesn't get much traction, and therefore recommends that we leave the EU.

    If, in the referendum, the Stay In side then win: what happens next?

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    THERESA MAY has revealed that police investigations into life-threatening crimes and sexual attacks are being dropped at the rate of one a week in London alone as a result of the failure to give police stronger internet surveillance powers.

    The home secretary said Scotland Yard had been forced to abandon 12 serious criminal investigations in just three months because detectives could not obtain communications data on the suspects. The cases included sexual offences, at least one kidnapping and other cases where there was a threat to life.

    In an article for The Sunday Times’s website, the home secretary pressed other ministers to act, declaring that fresh powers were “needed desperately” to combat “real and deadly threats”.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1428205.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_06_28

    I do worry about how many serious crimes are going unsolved because the police have not been able to bar code and fit tracking devices to everyone in the country.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    Incidentally, an interesting scenario occurred to me. Suppose Dave gets his majority, tries to renegotiate, doesn't get much traction, and therefore regretfully recommends that we leave the EU.

    Would we have a referendum on leaving? Surely we'd just leave?

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Dave will go down the European model, and continue to hold a referendum until he gets the right result

    LOL!

    I suppose he'll be able to ask his friend Jean-Claude Juncker for some tips on how to handle it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Incidentally, an interesting scenario occurred to me. Suppose Dave gets his majority, tries to renegotiate, doesn't get much traction, and therefore regretfully recommends that we leave the EU.

    If, in the referendum, the Stay In side then win: what happens next?

    The EU kick us out anyway ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    THERESA MAY has revealed that police investigations into life-threatening crimes and sexual attacks are being dropped at the rate of one a week in London alone as a result of the failure to give police stronger internet surveillance powers.

    The home secretary said Scotland Yard had been forced to abandon 12 serious criminal investigations in just three months because detectives could not obtain communications data on the suspects. The cases included sexual offences, at least one kidnapping and other cases where there was a threat to life.

    In an article for The Sunday Times’s website, the home secretary pressed other ministers to act, declaring that fresh powers were “needed desperately” to combat “real and deadly threats”.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1428205.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_06_28

    I do worry about how many serious crimes are going unsolved because the police have not been able to bar code and fit tracking devices to everyone in the country.
    Personally I hope we go down the Minority Report route.
  • Incidentally, an interesting scenario occurred to me. Suppose Dave gets his majority, tries to renegotiate, doesn't get much traction, and therefore regretfully recommends that we leave the EU.

    If, in the referendum, the Stay In side then win: what happens next?

    '[T]he Crown of England, which has been so free at all times, that it has had no earthly lord, but is immediately subject to God in all matters touching the regality of the same crown, and to none other' would forever be subject to Brussels. A virulent prospect.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Hmm If we'd have gone through I suspect Colombia would have thrashed us by at least 2-0. What is more we would have probably hilariously been favourites for the match.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    I wonder if Prof. Fisher’s predictions will magically gradually change towards the election as it becomes clear his model was nonsense?

    I don't expect you are interested in the answer, because it seems your only motivation is to rubbish an analysis which you don't like (and probably don't understand), but here goes:

    Yes, as the election gets closer the output from Prof Fisher's model (but not the model itself, of course) will change, in two ways. Firstly the central forecast of the vote shares of the various parties will get closer to what the opinion polls are saying at the time. Secondly, the error bars on that central forecast will narrow.

    This is commonsense: polls a long way out from an election are a less good guide to the final result than polls very close to the election. What Prof. Fisher has done is quantify that effect by analysing how close polls in the past have been to the final result at various intervals before the election, and in which direction they have tended to shift.

    It's a superb piece of work and extremely useful for political punters.

    It is NOT a forecast, but an analysis of the predictive power of opinion polls.
    So Betfair price on Tories overall majority on 9/5/14 represented excellent value then as it was twice as likely compared with a Lab one. Good luck following the model the Betfair price is still more or less the same now yet the model says its now only 31% more likely. My instinct is that Lab most seats is a good bet at 10/11. On 9/5/14 the model would have said it was a very bad bet, now not quite so bad.

    If you want to follow the model thats fine but i dont go along with this genius bit
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    Incidentally, an interesting scenario occurred to me. Suppose Dave gets his majority, tries to renegotiate, doesn't get much traction, and therefore regretfully recommends that we leave the EU.

    If, in the referendum, the Stay In side then win: what happens next?

    The EU will grant the denied concessions in gratitude for the loyalty of the British people.

    And we shall all live happily forever after.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    edited June 2014

    Obviously she's going to get abuse from MI5 agents posting as Nats

    Kenny Farquharson ‏@KennyFarq 44s

    This weekend's Scotland on Sunday front page

    pic.twitter.com/ZQNT3qLhRE

    Perhaps more of a development -

    twitter.com/newsundayherald/status/483010035581476864/photo/1

    Will have to see what they say.

    (BTW pressed the off topic button by mistake - Vanilla was acting up and I got my quote and o/t buttons mixed up. Idiotic finger trouble I know but my apologies. )

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited June 2014
    Non-Paywalled version of the Cruddas story

    Sky's Political Correspondent Sophy Ridge said: "This story is significant because of who is giving the comments.

    "Jon Cruddas is the head of Labour's policy review. That's a senior position - it means he's effectively in charge of the way Labour formulates its proposals ahead of the next election.

    "What he is specifically saying is that he is concerned the way Labour is making policies is not really working for the party."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1291420/policy-chief-questions-milibands-leadership
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Conservative majority is way too short at the moment, 3.9 is a joke price.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Richards scenario is essentially a duplicate of a No outcome in the Indyref.

    It would settle the issue, make the first ministers position untenable and lead to negotions on a new settlement.

    Like the Indyref we would see Project Fib vs Project Fear. It would also take some years to work out the consequences of departure (stay in the EEA? Stay in EFTA?, stay in ECJ? etc) so as to frame the debate. No doubt many have made up their minds already.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014


    So Betfair price on Tories overall majority on 9/5/14 represented excellent value then as it was twice as likely compared with a Lab one. Good luck following the model the Betfair price is still more or less the same now yet the model says its now only 31% more likely. My instinct is that Lab most seats is a good bet at 10/11. On 9/5/14 the model would have said it was a very bad bet, now not quite so bad.

    If you want to follow the model thats fine but i dont go along with this genius bit

    You still don't seem to understand. It is NOT a forecast. It is an analysis of the predictive power of the polls.

    By all means bet on the basis of what you think will happen. You might be right, just as those (such as Jack W, and, it appears, many senior Labour politicians) who think the public will recoil from ever putting Ed Miliband into No 10 might be right. We shall see; political betting is a judgement call overlaid on looking at opinion polls.

    However, what Professor Fisher's analysis shows is that you shouldn't (yet) be relying too much on the opinion polls to form that judgement.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Non-Paywalled version of the Cruddas story

    Sky's Political Correspondent Sophy Ridge said: "This story is significant because of who is giving the comments.

    "Jon Cruddas is the head of Labour's policy review. That's a senior position - it means he's effectively in charge of the way Labour formulates its proposals ahead of the next election.

    "What he is specifically saying is that he is concerned the way Labour is making policies is not really working for the party."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1291420/policy-chief-questions-milibands-leadership

    "cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies"

    Bravo. Couldn't have put it better myself.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Non-Paywalled version of the Cruddas story

    Sky's Political Correspondent Sophy Ridge said: "This story is significant because of who is giving the comments.

    "Jon Cruddas is the head of Labour's policy review. That's a senior position - it means he's effectively in charge of the way Labour formulates its proposals ahead of the next election.

    "What he is specifically saying is that he is concerned the way Labour is making policies is not really working for the party."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1291420/policy-chief-questions-milibands-leadership

    "cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies"

    Bravo. Couldn't have put it better myself.
    As I said earlier, there's enough there for Dave and The Tories to keep them happy for ages.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    Swingback is a nice theory in which voters magically and for no reason at all switch into supporting the governing party of the day (which is false since people change their vote for a reason).

    Lets look at the data and see if it always exists and to find why.
    There have been 11 elections since regular polling began, I will count 10 since 1974 had 2 in a few months.
    Swingback occurred in 1983, 1987, 1992, 1997, 2010, so in 5 out of 10 elections
    Out of those 5, 1983 was a war victory, 1992 a leadership change, and 3 remaining from the improving economy.
    From those 3 only one (1987) gave victory to the government.

    So if we discount a war victory or a leadership change, the chances of a swingback are less than 1 in 3 and even if there is swingback again 1 in 3 swingbacks offered victory.
    It could happen, all non event swingbacks occurred thanks to an improving economy and could still lead to victory like 1987, but time is running out, no swingback has ever occurred after the conferences.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,874
    The interesting thing is that by 2017 it is perfectly possible there will have been big gains by the Swedish Democrats and Danish Peoples' Party in their elections, perhaps even Marine Le Pen topping the first round of the French Presidential poll, as a result the UK's position will look less extreme, particularly as our FPTP system will give UKIP only 1 or 2 seats at best. In the end I think Merkel will do whatever she can to keep the UK in, Germany does not want to be the only large economy of strength in the union, which with a UK exit she would be. She does not want to have only Italy, Spain and France, all economies in decline, as her only counterparts amongst the big nations, posing a bigger burden on Germany with likely resentment from the southern EU nations too
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    Non-Paywalled version of the Cruddas story

    Sky's Political Correspondent Sophy Ridge said: "This story is significant because of who is giving the comments.

    "Jon Cruddas is the head of Labour's policy review. That's a senior position - it means he's effectively in charge of the way Labour formulates its proposals ahead of the next election.

    "What he is specifically saying is that he is concerned the way Labour is making policies is not really working for the party."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1291420/policy-chief-questions-milibands-leadership

    "cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies"

    Bravo. Couldn't have put it better myself.
    But to be fair to Miliband it is probably the right tactics for an opposition at this stage of the electoral cycle.

    What is damning is Cruddas predicting that the "interesting ideas and remedies" being developed in the party's formal policy review process will not make it to the GE manifesto.

    Playing to the cameras is fine provided real policy development is going on out of sight.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    AveryLP said:


    But to be fair to Miliband it is probably the right tactics for an opposition at this stage of the electoral cycle.

    It's getting a bit late to still be using such tactics especially given that Labour's biggest problem of all is lack of credibility. This is especially so because the Labour conference is, by a piece of bad luck for them, likely to be drowned out by the fallout from IndyRef - even if the result is No.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Lord Ashcroft poll

    The Sunday Times are reporting that the Lord Ashcroft Lib/Lab marginals poll will show.

    " the poll to be released on Tuesday, will show that Labour will gain about another seven seats"
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    The interesting thing is that by 2017 it is perfectly possible there will have been big gains by the Swedish Democrats and Danish Peoples' Party in their elections, perhaps even Marine Le Pen topping the first round of the French Presidential poll, as a result the UK's position will look less extreme, particularly as our FPTP system will give UKIP only 1 or 2 seats at best. In the end I think Merkel will do whatever she can to keep the UK in, Germany does not want to be the only large economy of strength in the union, which with a UK exit she would be. She does not want to have only Italy, Spain and France, all economies in decline, as her only counterparts amongst the big nations, posing a bigger burden on Germany with likely resentment from the southern EU nations too

    The electoral cycles of europe do point to a major policy crisis by the end of the decade.
    If Le Pen wins in France it will result in the biggest cat fight with Merkel since Dynasty and Dallas, little will be left of europe to withdraw by the time PM Miliband loses the 2020 election.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Swingback can also be negative. Callaghan looked like winning in autumn 1978.

    But Fisher is mostly saying what NPXMP says: as well as black swans there are only the indyref and conferences that can really change things before the campaign.

    Possibly some thing like Cruddas's comments or Junckers election could represent a black swan, but most people do not notice these things. They are too busy getting on with watching football and Glastonbury and that emergency diet so that they look good on the beach.
    Speedy said:

    Swingback is a nice theory in which voters magically and for no reason at all switch into supporting the governing party of the day (which is false since people change their vote for a reason).

    Lets look at the data and see if it always exists and to find why.
    There have been 11 elections since regular polling began, I will count 10 since 1974 had 2 in a few months.
    Swingback occurred in 1983, 1987, 1992, 1997, 2010, so in 5 out of 10 elections
    Out of those 5, 1983 was a war victory, 1992 a leadership change, and 3 remaining from the improving economy.
    From those 3 only one (1987) gave victory to the government.

    So if we discount a war victory or a leadership change, the chances of a swingback are less than 1 in 3 and even if there is swingback again 1 in 3 swingbacks offered victory.
    It could happen, all non event swingbacks occurred thanks to an improving economy and could still lead to victory like 1987, but time is running out, no swingback has ever occurred after the conferences.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    NEW: Survation/M.O.S. Westminster VI - (with change since 24th May) CON 27% (NC) LAB 36% (+4), LD 7% (-2) UKIP 22% (-1) OTHERS 9 (NC)
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Twitter
    Survation ‏@Survation 4m
    Good evening. We have the first "post Juncker appointment" (and post Old Bailey *developments*) poll coming in tomorrow's Mail On Sunday
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Lord Ashcroft poll

    The Sunday Times are reporting that the Lord Ashcroft Lib/Lab marginals poll will show.

    " the poll to be released on Tuesday, will show that Labour will gain about another seven seats"

    How many Lib held marginals did he poll?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    NEW: Survation/M.O.S. Westminster VI - (with change since 24th May) CON 27% (NC) LAB 36% (+4), LD 7% (-2) UKIP 22% (-1) OTHERS 9 (NC)

    OUCH for Team Blue!

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Lord Ashcroft poll

    The Sunday Times are reporting that the Lord Ashcroft Lib/Lab marginals poll will show.

    " the poll to be released on Tuesday, will show that Labour will gain about another seven seats"

    I presume that means seven seats from the LibDems - if so, it's much as one might expect, but not as many as they'd be hoping for on a good night.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    GIN1138 said:

    NEW: Survation/M.O.S. Westminster VI - (with change since 24th May) CON 27% (NC) LAB 36% (+4), LD 7% (-2) UKIP 22% (-1) OTHERS 9 (NC)

    OUCH for Team Blue!

    Nah, good news, no drop post Coulson and Juncker.
This discussion has been closed.