Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s cross-over time on the Ipsos-MORI Issues Index. Immigr

245

Comments

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. JS, vielleicht.

    Merkel was weak. She vacillated, u-turning on opposition to Juncker when a domestic fuss was kicked up. Of other countries, lots will just fall into line, and some just want more spending and less austerity, and see Juncker as the means to that end.

    That said, I am a little surprised, like you, that there wasn't a little more variety.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Memo to Mr Juncker, who might not be totally up to speed with the methods of the UK newspaper industry: If an attractive young lady 'researcher' flatters you and tries to chat you up, especially over a bottle or two of fine claret, drink only water and go straight home to Mrs Juncker.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    isam said:

    AndyJS said:

    Socrates said:

    But actually, white Londoners voted UKIP at the same rates as the rest of the country.

    London has much more immigration than the rest of the country, so your theory would predict them voting UKIP at much higher rates.
    UKIP do worse with the highly educated, so that would counter the higher immigration rates.
    I didn't realise the barrow boys were highly educated! You learn something new every day. Must be why us country thickos aren't Londoners
    tim used to put it well,

    "Tower Hamlets Schools are better because the thick white racists have left London"

    Worked in Birmingham too
    Yes, he was a little ray of sunshine
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    AndyJS said:

    Europe declares war on the UK.
    We all know who wins this shit.

    What scares me slighly is the utter uniformity from the other countries apart from the UK and Hungary. You'd think there'd be a slightly wider range of opinion from so many nations.
    No, the winner of Euro film 2014 at Cannes will be a 26 nation production of Get Cameron
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Mr. JS, vielleicht.

    Merkel was weak. She vacillated, u-turning on opposition to Juncker when a domestic fuss was kicked up. Of other countries, lots will just fall into line, and some just want more spending and less austerity, and see Juncker as the means to that end.

    That said, I am a little surprised, like you, that there wasn't a little more variety.

    And the Swedes and the Dutch were bought off. It shows how long they'll last when Cameron tries to use them as allies for repatriation.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Socrates said:

    Mr. JS, vielleicht.

    Merkel was weak. She vacillated, u-turning on opposition to Juncker when a domestic fuss was kicked up. Of other countries, lots will just fall into line, and some just want more spending and less austerity, and see Juncker as the means to that end.

    That said, I am a little surprised, like you, that there wasn't a little more variety.

    And the Swedes and the Dutch were bought off. It shows how long they'll last when Cameron tries to use them as allies for repatriation.
    Forget repatriation, the Tories will go BOO over the next year or two
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants fighting for ISIS and making videos talking about "our people" and not meaning English people probably don't help.

    As I said last night, Anna Soubry on QT taking about "Muslim community leaders" in Broxtowe just underlines the point that mass immigration hasn't worked.. if it had the community leaders would represent everyone, the immigrants having assimilated.

    I didn't see the programme, but going by what you say, to be fair to AS, no leaders represent EVERYONE. It's not David Cameron's fault if Joe Bloggs gets drunk and runs someone over, so long as Cameron hasn't actually encouraged drink driving. Muslim community leaders reflect the overwhelming majority of British Muslims who would no more go and fight for ISIS than you or I would.

    I am not knocking Soubry for that, I am making the point that if mass immigration had worked, there would be no need for "Muslim community leaders" "Black community leaders", just as there aren't "White community leaders" or "Christian community spokesman"... or if there are, we never hear from them.. watch the youtube clip I linked to - Trevor Phillips, Lord Lester, Roy Jenkins and many other founders of multiculturalism all admitting it failed
    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    Communities (and particularly religious ones) by their nature create community leaders, whether it's a village against fracking, the head Catholic Cardinal/Rabbi/etc or deaf people, a Welsh language village complaining about non-speakers moving in or any number of other examples.

    Or are you saying that all those groups are insufficiently assimilated?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited June 2014
    It's worth at this point reminding us of a story from a few days ago:

    David Cameron may campaign to leave EU if Juncker is appointed, No 10 suggests

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10920040/David-Cameron-may-campaign-to-leave-EU-if-Juncker-is-appointed-No-10-suggests.html
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Perhaps Cameron should formally refuse to recognise his legitimacy.
    Go Ian Smith on their arses
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Forget repatriation, the Tories will go BOO over the next year or two

    That depends on our EU friends.

    Of course if Ed M is in Number 10 it will be academic anyway, we'll be full speed ahead on the Juncker junket.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants fighting for ISIS and making videos talking about "our people" and not meaning English people probably don't help.

    As I said last night, Anna Soubry on QT taking about "Muslim community leaders" in Broxtowe just underlines the point that mass immigration hasn't worked.. if it had the community leaders would represent everyone, the immigrants having assimilated.

    I didn't see the programme, but going by what you say, to be fair to AS, no leaders represent EVERYONE. It's not David Cameron's fault if Joe Bloggs gets drunk and runs someone over, so long as Cameron hasn't actually encouraged drink driving. Muslim community leaders reflect the overwhelming majority of British Muslims who would no more go and fight for ISIS than you or I would.

    I am not knocking Soubry for that, I am making the point that if mass immigration had worked, there would be no need for "Muslim community leaders" "Black community leaders", just as there aren't "White community leaders" or "Christian community spokesman"... or if there are, we never hear from them.. watch the youtube clip I linked to - Trevor Phillips, Lord Lester, Roy Jenkins and many other founders of multiculturalism all admitting it failed
    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    Communities (and particularly religious ones) by their nature create community leaders, whether it's a village against fracking, the head Catholic Cardinal/Rabbi/etc or deaf people, a Welsh language village complaining about non-speakers moving in or any number of other examples.

    Or are you saying that all those groups are insufficiently assimilated?
    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Socrates, indeed.

    I'm astounded by the lack of concern as the shifting centre of power from nation-states to Brussels. I realise no other country in the world enjoys a history as impressive and heroic as ours, but the seeming lack of concern from the political class is still astonishing.

    It's also not necessarily reflective of the electorate (cf the National Front in France).

    Mr. Woolie, you may be right. It'll be interesting to see how Cameron changes his stance.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    taffys said:

    How to reach detente with the majority moderate Muslim communities around the world?

    We might ask them how they themselves plan to counter the extremists?

    Their problem is our problem. Detente cannot be accusatory and provocative.
    I don't really have an answer, I'm resigned to the thought that the West will commit atrocities in response to atrocities as it did in Iraq and the world will be a perilous place to be for decades to come. The deeper we go, the worse our own atrocities will be. There's a thirst for hatred out there, you hear it when the discussion of Islam comes up in pubs and cafés, at water coolers and in the dunny.

    We need to get the religions of the world co-existing peacefully before we can point out to them that it was all nonsense anyway and start partying.
    Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. (The only reason why they do in America is that there are so many of them that they all know that they cannot gain any political power per se.)

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    weejonnie said:

    taffys said:

    How to reach detente with the majority moderate Muslim communities around the world?

    We might ask them how they themselves plan to counter the extremists?

    Their problem is our problem. Detente cannot be accusatory and provocative.
    I don't really have an answer, I'm resigned to the thought that the West will commit atrocities in response to atrocities as it did in Iraq and the world will be a perilous place to be for decades to come. The deeper we go, the worse our own atrocities will be. There's a thirst for hatred out there, you hear it when the discussion of Islam comes up in pubs and cafés, at water coolers and in the dunny.

    We need to get the religions of the world co-existing peacefully before we can point out to them that it was all nonsense anyway and start partying.
    Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. (The only reason why they do in America is that there are so many of them that they all know that they cannot gain any political power per se.)

    Indeed, hence my resignation to war and atrocity and intense dislike of all religions.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Memo to Mr Juncker, who might not be totally up to speed with the methods of the UK newspaper industry: If an attractive young lady 'researcher' flatters you and tries to chat you up, especially over a bottle or two of fine claret, drink only water and go straight home to Mrs Juncker.

    Doubt he gives a monkeys to be perfectly honest.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Woolie, even the Flying Spaghetti Monster? :(

    F1: hint in a farewell tweet from Tony Fernandes that his Caterham F1 team will (one way or the other) be no more.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Forget repatriation, the Tories will go BOO over the next year or two

    That depends on our EU friends.

    Of course if Ed M is in Number 10 it will be academic anyway, we'll be full speed ahead on the Juncker junket.
    The electorate here are like the Beatles
    We can work it out.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    edited June 2014
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants fighting for ISIS and making videos talking about "our people" and not meaning English people probably don't help.

    As I said last night, Anna Soubry on QT taking about "Muslim community leaders" in Broxtowe just underlines the point that mass immigration hasn't worked.. if it had the community leaders would represent everyone, the immigrants having assimilated.

    I didn't see the programme, but going by what you say, to be fair to AS, no leaders represent EVERYONE. It's not David Cameron's fault if Joe Bloggs gets drunk and runs someone over, so long as Cameron hasn't actually encouraged drink driving. Muslim community leaders reflect the overwhelming majority of British Muslims who would no more go and fight for ISIS than you or I would.

    I am not knocking Soubry for that, I am making the point that if mass immigration had worked, there would be no need for "Muslim community leaders" "Black community leaders", just as there aren't "White community leaders" or "Christian community spokesman"... or if there are, we never hear from them.. watch the youtube clip I linked to - Trevor Phillips, Lord Lester, Roy Jenkins and many other founders of multiculturalism all admitting it failed
    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    Communities (and particularly religious ones) by their nature create community leaders, whether it's a village against fracking, the head Catholic Cardinal/Rabbi/etc or deaf people, a Welsh language village complaining about non-speakers moving in or any number of other examples.

    Or are you saying that all those groups are insufficiently assimilated?
    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
    I think you have an over-simplified view of the issues involved (notably that you made a point and when it's questioned are dodging away from it).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2014
    It really has come to this... the Empire in reverse

    "White working class children are being “marginalised” at school after being forced to follow a multicultural timetable that shuns British traditions, according to research.

    Large numbers of schools follow a curriculum that celebrates a “diverse range of pupils” while sidelining those from poor British families, it was claimed.

    Head teachers told how they ran numerous projects such as Black History Month and “cultural days” to raise awareness of countries such as Portugal, Poland and Jamaica.

    But it was claimed that white British pupils from deprived homes often “cannot see themselves or their lives reflected in the curriculum”, turning them off school altogether"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10930854/Poor-white-pupils-put-off-school-by-multicultural-timetable.html
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014

    I'm astounded by the lack of concern as the shifting centre of power from nation-states to Brussels.

    Many of the nation-states of Europe are fairly recent inventions, and their people have seen many different powers rule over them in the last few centuries, so the entire mindset is completely different. If you live in, say, Trentino, being ruled over by Brussels is very benign compared with some of the other empires who've run the place. What's more you don't particularly identify with Italy.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Mr. Socrates, indeed.

    I'm astounded by the lack of concern as the shifting centre of power from nation-states to Brussels. I realise no other country in the world enjoys a history as impressive and heroic as ours, but the seeming lack of concern from the political class is still astonishing.

    Mr Lilley did propose that MPs' pay should be reduced whenever they passed power/responsibility from Westminster to another institution. He didn't find a majority of MPs to support the proposal.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2014
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants fighting for ISIS and making videos talking about "our people" and not meaning English people probably don't help.

    As I said last night, Anna Soubry on QT taking about "Muslim community leaders" in Broxtowe just underlines the point that mass immigration hasn't worked.. if it had the community leaders would represent everyone, the immigrants having assimilated.

    I didn't see the programme, but going by what you say, to be fair to AS, no leaders represent EVERYONE. It's not David Cameron's fault if Joe Bloggs gets drunk and runs someone over, so long as Cameron hasn't actually encouraged drink driving. Muslim community leaders reflect the overwhelming majority of British Muslims who would no more go and fight for ISIS than you or I would.

    I am not knocking Soubry for that, I am making the point that if mass immigration had worked, there would be no need for "Muslim community leaders" "Black community leaders", just as there aren't "White community leaders" or "Christian community spokesman"... or if there are, we never hear from them.. watch the youtube clip I linked to - Trevor Phillips, Lord Lester, Roy Jenkins and many other founders of multiculturalism all admitting it failed
    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    Communities (and particularly religious ones) by their nature create community leaders, whether it's a village against fracking, the head Catholic Cardinal/Rabbi/etc or deaf people, a Welsh language village complaining about non-speakers moving in or any number of other examples.

    Or are you saying that all those groups are insufficiently assimilated?
    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
    I think you have an over-simplified view of the issues involved (notably that you made a point and when it's questioned are dodging away from it).
    Not at all, it just isn't worth talking to you on things like this. Your attitude caused all the problems, and when its pointed out you distract with nonsense, I haven't dodged anything.

    Comparing the Head of our national church with some self styled "Muslim Community Leader" is barely worth responding to, although it says everything about you. You are the sort of wishy washy excuse maker that has ruined my country.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited June 2014

    Socrates said:

    Mr. JS, vielleicht.

    Merkel was weak. She vacillated, u-turning on opposition to Juncker when a domestic fuss was kicked up. Of other countries, lots will just fall into line, and some just want more spending and less austerity, and see Juncker as the means to that end.

    That said, I am a little surprised, like you, that there wasn't a little more variety.

    And the Swedes and the Dutch were bought off. It shows how long they'll last when Cameron tries to use them as allies for repatriation.
    Forget repatriation, the Tories will go BOO over the next year or two
    The parliamentary Conservative Party is every bit as pro-EU as the LDs.

    Next month they'll be voting to pass powers over Justice and Home Affairs to the EU. The UK has an opt-out, but they _want_ to opt-in.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    The parliamentary Conservative Party is every bit as pro-EU as the LDs..

    What garbage. Have you never met any of them?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    There are none so blind as those who will not see
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    I'm astounded by the lack of concern as the shifting centre of power from nation-states to Brussels.

    Many of the nation-states of Europe are fairly recent inventions, and their people have seen many different powers rule over them in the last few centuries, so the entire mindset is completely different. If you live in, say, Trentino, being ruled over by Brussels is very benign compared with some of the other empires who've run the place. What's more you don't particularly identify with Italy.
    Yes. If you lived in mainland europe it would be quite reasonable to see the nation state as the cause of many conflicts and the source of past oppression.

    For us, it was the Nation State and limited government that that protected our liberty, in times of peace and war.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701

    Mr. Socrates, indeed.

    I'm astounded by the lack of concern as the shifting centre of power from nation-states to Brussels. I realise no other country in the world enjoys a history as impressive and heroic as ours, but the seeming lack of concern from the political class is still astonishing.

    Mr Lilley did propose that MPs' pay should be reduced whenever they passed power/responsibility from Westminster to another institution. He didn't find a majority of MPs to support the proposal.
    A bear just asked to use our toilet!
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation

    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    Communities (and particularly religious ones) by their nature create community leaders, whether it's a village against fracking, the head Catholic Cardinal/Rabbi/etc or deaf people, a Welsh language village complaining about non-speakers moving in or any number of other examples.

    Or are you saying that all those groups are insufficiently assimilated?
    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
    I think you have an over-simplified view of the issues involved (notably that you made a point and when it's questioned are dodging away from it).
    Not at all, it just isn't worth talking to you on things like this. Your attitude caused all the problems, and when its pointed out you distract with nonsense, I haven't dodged anything.

    Comparing the Head of our national church with some self styled "Muslim Community Leader" is barely worth responding to, although it says everything about you. You are the sort of wishy washy excuse maker that has ruined my country.

    Your national church maybe, not mine.

    But more to the point I gave a whole range of examples of the kind of community leaders who crop up, I wasn't implying they were all on the same level. If you prefer I could've talked about someone lower down the hierarchy, local vicars or whatever. You saying that Muslim community leaders existing shows something only makes sense if you don't apply that logic anywhere else.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    The parliamentary Conservative Party is every bit as pro-EU as the LDs..

    What garbage. Have you never met any of them?
    You think the parliamentary Conservative Party are going to vote the keep the opt-outs?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Mr. Woolie, even the Flying Spaghetti Monster? :(

    F1: hint in a farewell tweet from Tony Fernandes that his Caterham F1 team will (one way or the other) be no more.

    Perhaps the most heinous of the pantheon!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Woolie, thou foul heathen! Utterer of heresy and decadence! Spurn ye not His Noodley Appendage, and recant thy foul speech, and instead marvel at the awesome divinity of his mighty meatballs!
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
    I think speeches throughout the history of NI by leaders on both sides of the divide rather contradict that.
    As ever, many or most average Joes got along just fine, but at the heart of the trouble was the split between the Catholic republicans and Protestant Loyalists and religion was used in inflammatory ways in escalation.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Mr. Woolie, thou foul heathen! Utterer of heresy and decadence! Spurn ye not His Noodley Appendage, and recant thy foul speech, and instead marvel at the awesome divinity of his mighty meatballs!

    I apologise to his divinity.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701
    Looking at the "issues facing Britain" bar chart I see that "immigration" and "race relations" are conflated.
    Personally I have no concerns about immigration; I've got used to it ever since the Saxons arrived, but I am concerned about race relations, and the discussion between Mr Corporeal and Mr Isam shows why.For the record, I'm on the side of the former.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Cameron's response to Juncker may well determine the outcome of the GE 2015.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    You think the parliamentary Conservative Party are going to vote the keep the opt-outs?

    No, of course not. That's for the very good reason that there unfortunately isn't much choice, starting from where we are.

    Unless anyone has got any better idea, that doesn't involve a time-machine so we could have avoided the Blair/Brown screw-ups on the negotiations.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
    I think speeches throughout the history of NI by leaders on both sides of the divide rather contradict that.
    As ever, many or most average Joes got along just fine, but at the heart of the trouble was the split between the Catholic republicans and Protestant Loyalists and religion was used in inflammatory ways in escalation.
    Total bollocks really. Can you point out when any of the catholic or anglican bishops said "go on get stuck in there boys kill the bastards" ? The Irish clergy has usually been a calming influence.

    You have a contorted view of religious violence. If I look at the last century the majority of violent deaths were cause through ethnic conflict or ideology not religion.

    Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot weren't renowned as churchgoers.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    Cameron's response to Juncker may well determine the outcome of the GE 2015.

    Any idea when we'll be hearing from him? I think there's usually a press conference with all the leaders at the end of these summits?

  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited June 2014
    "It was made clear yet again that the idea of an ever-closer union, as it is stated in the treaties, does not mean that there is equal speed among the member countries but there can be different speeds that member countries adopt to come to ever-closer union," says Merkel in

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10930987/Juncker-named-as-European-Commission-president-as-Cameron-warns-EU-could-regret-it.html

    Blimey. They're still peddling that "ever closer union like it or not" message. I'm having a Dan Hannan moment here.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Why is the government annual deficit and accumulated debt not on the list of potential issues?

    Ah, it's our children who will have to repay the debt and suffer a poor credit rating.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336

    At the risk of sounding 50 years older than I am, I wonder if UKIP will use Juncker/Junker [apologies if I misspelt the latter, the Second World War's a bit before my time] name and imagery to campaign against him/the EU.

    Good afternoon, Mr D!

    I did wonder too. But strictly speaking it was Hugo Junkers (with an s on the end) who founded the aviation firm whose products used to fly over and around the British Isles. A Junker is of course one of the East Prussian squirearchy but that is perhaps too simple for a tabloid newspaper ...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014
    @Richard_Nabavi

    But Blair and Brown were being good Europeans and in being contrite they were actually given the UK more influence, which achieved....

    ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
    I think speeches throughout the history of NI by leaders on both sides of the divide rather contradict that.
    As ever, many or most average Joes got along just fine, but at the heart of the trouble was the split between the Catholic republicans and Protestant Loyalists and religion was used in inflammatory ways in escalation.
    Total bollocks really. Can you point out when any of the catholic or anglican bishops said "go on get stuck in there boys kill the bastards" ? The Irish clergy has usually been a calming influence.

    You have a contorted view of religious violence. If I look at the last century the majority of violent deaths were cause through ethnic conflict or ideology not religion.

    Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot weren't renowned as churchgoers.
    Go back 25 or so years. How easy was it for a Catholic lad to get a job in a Protestant-owned small builders?
    Genuine question, as I was told by Ulstermen that it could be difficult. And vice versa, to be fair.

    Go up the social scale and it was a lot easier, according to my friends, who were from both sides.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited June 2014

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
    I think speeches throughout the history of NI by leaders on both sides of the divide rather contradict that.
    As ever, many or most average Joes got along just fine, but at the heart of the trouble was the split between the Catholic republicans and Protestant Loyalists and religion was used in inflammatory ways in escalation.
    Total bollocks really. Can you point out when any of the catholic or anglican bishops said "go on get stuck in there boys kill the bastards" ? The Irish clergy has usually been a calming influence.

    You have a contorted view of religious violence. If I look at the last century the majority of violent deaths were cause through ethnic conflict or ideology not religion.

    Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot weren't renowned as churchgoers.
    Who said anything about bishops?
    Religion and religious belief was a factor in the troubles in NI, to pretend otherwise is fatuous.
    Are you a proddy?
    Are you a papist?
    I bet those words were never spat at someone before a kicking ensued.
    Religion is no more what a bishop says than faith is indicative of embracing all the extremes of the individual's church.

    Edit - by leaders I was referring to the leaders of the two factions, not church leaders (except Paisley)
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
    That the split was to a significant demographically Catholic vs Protestant, and the use of religion based insults in relation to it (i.e. "prods" etc) I think shows that religion certainly had an element to play.

    There was certainly a lot more to it, but then you can point to that in many of the other conflicts that tend to get simplified down to "islam violence".

    (I'd say that many of the latter are more religious than Northern Ireland, but not a black/white thing etc).
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's response to Juncker may well determine the outcome of the GE 2015.

    Any idea when we'll be hearing from him? I think there's usually a press conference with all the leaders at the end of these summits?

    Right now presser going on.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
    I think speeches throughout the history of NI by leaders on both sides of the divide rather contradict that.
    As ever, many or most average Joes got along just fine, but at the heart of the trouble was the split between the Catholic republicans and Protestant Loyalists and religion was used in inflammatory ways in escalation.
    Total bollocks really. Can you point out when any of the catholic or anglican bishops said "go on get stuck in there boys kill the bastards" ? The Irish clergy has usually been a calming influence.

    You have a contorted view of religious violence. If I look at the last century the majority of violent deaths were cause through ethnic conflict or ideology not religion.

    Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot weren't renowned as churchgoers.
    Who said anything about bishops?
    Religion and religious belief was a factor in the troubles in NI, to pretend otherwise is fatuous.
    Are you a proddy?
    Are you a papist?
    I bet those words were never spat at someone before a kicking ensued.
    Religion is no more what a bishop says than faith is indicative of embracing all the extremes of the individual's church.
    And not many bishops on the Protestant side either ...

  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Why is the government annual deficit and accumulated debt not on the list of potential issues?

    Ah, it's our children who will have to repay the debt and suffer a poor credit rating.

    You're probably right. Maybe people see it as an economic challenge, in which case it sits comfortably in at #2.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation

    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    Communities (and particularly religious ones) by their nature create community leaders, whether it's a village against fracking, the head Catholic Cardinal/Rabbi/etc or deaf people, a Welsh language village complaining about non-speakers moving in or any number of other examples.

    Or are you saying that all those groups are insufficiently assimilated?
    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
    I think you have an over-simplified view of the issues involved (notably that you made a point and when it's questioned are dodging away from it).
    Not at all, it just isn't worth talking to you on things like this. Your attitude caused all the problems, and when its pointed out you distract with nonsense, I haven't dodged anything.

    Comparing the Head of our national church with some self styled "Muslim Community Leader" is barely worth responding to, although it says everything about you. You are the sort of wishy washy excuse maker that has ruined my country.

    Your national church maybe, not mine.

    But more to the point I gave a whole range of examples of the kind of community leaders who crop up, I wasn't implying they were all on the same level. If you prefer I could've talked about someone lower down the hierarchy, local vicars or whatever. You saying that Muslim community leaders existing shows something only makes sense if you don't apply that logic anywhere else.
    Welsh speaking communities existed and they are being taken over
    Villages were peaceful and now face disturbance through fracking

    So it is fair enough that they respond to this outside interference

    Immigrants chose to come here and should assimilate, the complete opposite of the examples you gave, that's the difference, and glaring hole in your argument

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    ToryJim said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's response to Juncker may well determine the outcome of the GE 2015.

    Any idea when we'll be hearing from him? I think there's usually a press conference with all the leaders at the end of these summits?

    Right now presser going on.
    I'm not near a telly. Let us know if he say's anything interesting.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Why Thailand's elite fell out of love with democracy

    The rise of China is giving the developing world a new, authoritarian model"


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9247241/thailands-next-fix/
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    GIN1138 said:

    ToryJim said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's response to Juncker may well determine the outcome of the GE 2015.

    Any idea when we'll be hearing from him? I think there's usually a press conference with all the leaders at the end of these summits?

    Right now presser going on.
    I'm not near a telly. Let us know if he say's anything interesting.

    Nothing massively interesting so far.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    AndyJS said:

    "Why Thailand's elite fell out of love with democracy

    The rise of China is giving the developing world a new, authoritarian model"


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9247241/thailands-next-fix/

    We saw a similar thing in the early 20th century in Europe. Elites in country after country saw the rise of an autocratic Germany and thought we were heading into a new authoritarian age. That was part of the thinking for when the French cabinet elected Petain for instance.

    This is why we have been fortunate with the USA being the world's superpower for the last 60 years. It provided a democratic model that countries aspired towards. People will miss their passing should China become the superpower without democratising.
  • MikePMikeP Posts: 47
    Lol wind 'em up and let 'em roll.

    Nothing more dull than a swivel-eyed anti-immigration obsessive in full flow.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation

    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    Communities (and particularly religious ones) by their nature create community leaders, whether it's a village against fracking, the head Catholic Cardinal/Rabbi/etc or deaf people, a Welsh language village complaining about non-speakers moving in or any number of other examples.

    Or are you saying that all those groups are insufficiently assimilated?
    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
    I think you have an over-simplified view of the issues involved (notably that you made a point and when it's questioned are dodging away from it).
    Not at all, it just isn't worth talking to you on things like this. Your attitude caused all the problems, and when its pointed out you distract with nonsense, I haven't dodged anything.

    Comparing the Head of our national church with some self styled "Muslim Community Leader" is barely worth responding to, although it says everything about you. You are the sort of wishy washy excuse maker that has ruined my country.

    Your national church maybe, not mine.

    But more to the point I gave a whole range of examples of the kind of community leaders who crop up, I wasn't implying they were all on the same level. If you prefer I could've talked about someone lower down the hierarchy, local vicars or whatever. You saying that Muslim community leaders existing shows something only makes sense if you don't apply that logic anywhere else.
    Welsh speaking communities existed and they are being taken over
    Villages were peaceful and now face disturbance through fracking

    So it is fair enough that they respond to this outside interference

    Immigrants chose to come here and should assimilate, the complete opposite of the examples you gave, that's the difference, and glaring hole in your argument

    And deaf people? And Jewish communities?

    You're saying the existence of muslim etc community leaders shows something, I just think that any community produces leaders, whether geographical, religious, demographic, hobby based or whatever.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Probably not what Dave wanted at this moment in time, a diversion yes, but?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28054433
    Definitely not this sort.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2014
    Socrates said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Why Thailand's elite fell out of love with democracy

    The rise of China is giving the developing world a new, authoritarian model"


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9247241/thailands-next-fix/

    We saw a similar thing in the early 20th century in Europe. Elites in country after country saw the rise of an autocratic Germany and thought we were heading into a new authoritarian age. That was part of the thinking for when the French cabinet elected Petain for instance.

    This is why we have been fortunate with the USA being the world's superpower for the last 60 years. It provided a democratic model that countries aspired towards. People will miss their passing should China become the superpower without democratising.
    Edward VIII famously said before he became king: "dictators are very popular these days, maybe it's time we had one here".
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    On Cam presser you can tell he dislikes EU summits as he sarcastically referred to the next one on July 16th as "another day in paradise". He didn't look like a beaten person, looked rather chipper in fact and the questioning that I saw wasn't exactly brutal even from the Foreign Press.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sky News saying Cameron was warned, but chose to carry on anyway and looks like a loser

    Are they talking about Coulson or Juncker?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701
    edited June 2014
    AndyJS said:

    "Why Thailand's elite fell out of love with democracy


    The rise of China is giving the developing world a new, authoritarian model"


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9247241/thailands-next-fix/

    In spite of the criticism SeanT is getting on the Speccie site, I think he's right. I'm very concerned at what will happen when "something" happens to the present King. My understanding is that the likely successor is a friend, if not of the redshirts, then of their "Leader over the Water."
  • MikePMikeP Posts: 47
    Deadly Dave comes up trumps in Europe yet again. What a pathetic excuse for a PM that man is.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    isam said:

    Sky News saying Cameron was warned, but chose to carry on anyway and looks like a loser

    Are they talking about Coulson or Juncker?

    So, he should have agreed to appoint Junker? I think Cameron will be happier being a loser than an appeasing wanker.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701
    ToryJim said:

    On Cam presser you can tell he dislikes EU summits as he sarcastically referred to the next one on July 16th as "another day in paradise". He didn't look like a beaten person, looked rather chipper in fact and the questioning that I saw wasn't exactly brutal even from the Foreign Press.

    Well, he's not facing Milliband, he's facing people who are considerably brighter and more able than both of them.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    isam said:

    Sky News saying Cameron was warned, but chose to carry on anyway and looks like a loser

    Are they talking about Coulson or Juncker?

    I think he'd have been killed domestically if he had said Juncker was against British interests but we can't win so shouldn't fight.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    AndyJS said:

    Europe declares war on the UK.
    We all know who wins this shit.

    What scares me slighly is the utter uniformity from the other countries apart from the UK and Hungary. You'd think there'd be a slightly wider range of opinion from so many nations.
    The general Continental view is that there was an election and his side won. Leftists are a bit disappointed but feel they need to respect the outcome. Christian Democrats think we won, hooray. The idea that the result of the very recent election (in which they said, for those who bothered to listen, that they were seeking to make Juncker leader), following two Continent-wide television debates between the candidates, should be ignored is genuinely baffling to them. It's a bit like when Maggie won an election and as she approached the dispatch box for her first PMQ Dennis Skinner shouted "Resign!" - funny, but not really taken seriously.

    Socrates has made the point that most people hadn't heard of Juncker personally, but that's true of lots of elections - do you know the name of the leaders of the parties on your local council? Would you say they lack legitimacy if most people didn't? In general, as at most elections, people voted for a party and the Christian Democrats won.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation

    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
    I think you have an over-simplified view of the issues involved (notably that you made a point and when it's questioned are dodging away from it).
    Not at all, it just isn't worth talking to you on things like this. Your attitude caused all the problems, and when its pointed out you distract with nonsense, I haven't dodged anything.

    Comparing the Head of our national church with some self styled "Muslim Community Leader" is barely worth responding to, although it says everything about you. You are the sort of wishy washy excuse maker that has ruined my country.

    Your national church maybe, not mine.

    But more to the point I gave a whole range of examples of the kind of community leaders who crop up, I wasn't implying they were all on the same level. If you prefer I could've talked about someone lower down the hierarchy, local vicars or whatever. You saying that Muslim community leaders existing shows something only makes sense if you don't apply that logic anywhere else.
    Welsh speaking communities existed and they are being taken over
    Villages were peaceful and now face disturbance through fracking

    So it is fair enough that they respond to this outside interference

    Immigrants chose to come here and should assimilate, the complete opposite of the examples you gave, that's the difference, and glaring hole in your argument

    And deaf people? And Jewish communities?

    You're saying the existence of muslim etc community leaders shows something, I just think that any community produces leaders, whether geographical, religious, demographic, hobby based or whatever.
    Deaf people? They are handicapped people who need help from others to exist on a level playing field, not perfectly normal people who choose to differentiate themselves from the population they chose to join on religious grounds.. what a terrible example

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    taffys said:

    Juncker nominated...

    Bloomberg...

    Huzzah
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @MikeP

    'Deadly Dave comes up trumps in Europe yet again. What a pathetic excuse for a PM that man is.'

    He should have just caved in and given more of our rebate away?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Palmer, and what of the rule, which clearly states the elected leaders of nation-states ought to determine the head of the Commission?

    If Brussels wants to take note of election results it might want to consider the substantial headway made in many nations of parties outright opposed to the EU. But of course, Brussels is like a half-deaf man. The city of meddlesome eunuchs only hears what it wants to hear, and is deaf to disagreement.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    AndyJS said:

    Europe declares war on the UK.
    We all know who wins this shit.

    What scares me slighly is the utter uniformity from the other countries apart from the UK and Hungary. You'd think there'd be a slightly wider range of opinion from so many nations.
    Very telling indeed. It shows how highly the UK is thought of by Europe.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited June 2014
    Tories on BBC trying to excuse Cammo's failure and humiliation.
    Cammo's EU programme in ashes.

    UKIP right again! The EU is an undemocratic oligarchy thats rapidly becoming a quasi fascist state.

    The ghost of Hitler is smiling.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Socrates said:

    It's worth at this point reminding us of a story from a few days ago:

    David Cameron may campaign to leave EU if Juncker is appointed, No 10 suggests

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10920040/David-Cameron-may-campaign-to-leave-EU-if-Juncker-is-appointed-No-10-suggests.html

    Update , David Cameron refusing to come out from behind the sofa.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @NickPalmer

    "... people voted for a party and the Christian Democrats won ..."

    Who are these Christian Democrats? I didn't see them mentioned on the ballot paper I was given. How can this election be touted as the same as any other if we are not given the opportunity to vote for the parties\groups that are now seeking to use the result to claim victory and democratic legitimacy?

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's response to Juncker may well determine the outcome of the GE 2015.

    Any idea when we'll be hearing from him? I think there's usually a press conference with all the leaders at the end of these summits?

    He is still looking for his backbone
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited June 2014
    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    Europe declares war on the UK.
    We all know who wins this shit.

    What scares me slighly is the utter uniformity from the other countries apart from the UK and Hungary. You'd think there'd be a slightly wider range of opinion from so many nations.
    Very telling indeed. It shows how highly the UK is thought of by Europe.
    No in this case you're wrong. It shows that the vast majority of EU leaders are thinking about their pockets; and these pockets are deep indeed. Not that they care a hoot about the UK of course, except when they cry to Britain to defend them.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @HurstLlama

    Too damn right, where were the Neo Nazis on my ballot paper?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Cameron's comments fairly mild - he starts by making a statement on Russia, gets around to Juncker, expresses regret and basically moves on. Fair enough.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/jun/27/cameron-set-for-eu-defeat-over-jean-claude-juncker-politics-live-blog

    Mr Dancer - there isn't a rule that the leaders of nation states should determine the head of the Commission. Like the US division of powers (which influenced the original EC founders), it's deliberately split - the leaders nominate someone, the Parliament decides. If they reject the nominee, the leaders have to reconsider. It's designed to avoid getting someone who either the leaders or the Parliament reject.

    Clearly the Spitzenkandidaten approach has made it more likely that the leaders will choose the candidate of the winning party, but it's a mistake to see it as Parliament forcing itself on the leaders (who could have resisted if they'd wanted to) - rather, it's a strengthening of the European party alliance system which influenced Parliament and leaders alike.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    AndyJS

    'You'd think there'd be a slightly wider range of opinion from so many nations.'

    Different agendas, apparently Hollande and the Italian PM wanted Junker because they believe he will ease off on austerity.

    'Ms Merkel is under strong pressure from her coalition partners - the centre-left Social Democrats (SPD) - and some other EU leaders to back him.

    Centre-left leaders including French President Francois Hollande and Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi appear to be hoping that Mr Juncker will ease the EU's tough austerity drive. They want a shift away from cuts, and towards economic stimulus measures that could kick-start growth.'
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    "Tall order considering that different sects of the same religion can't co-exist peacefully. "

    Yeah, its strange that the media never report the ongoing war between the Methodists and the CofE. The ongoing series of Baptist suicide bombers as they try and shut down the BCP church movement is another notable feature of modern life that seldom seems to get a mention.

    Or did you have a specific religion in mind.

    The Catholics and Protestants in NI have always held hands in harmony
    We have it's the republican\loyalist split which causes the problems.
    I think speeches throughout the history of NI by leaders on both sides of the divide rather contradict that.
    As ever, many or most average Joes got along just fine, but at the heart of the trouble was the split between the Catholic republicans and Protestant Loyalists and religion was used in inflammatory ways in escalation.
    Total bollocks really. Can you point out when any of the catholic or anglican bishops said "go on get stuck in there boys kill the bastards" ? The Irish clergy has usually been a calming influence.

    You have a contorted view of religious violence. If I look at the last century the majority of violent deaths were cause through ethnic conflict or ideology not religion.

    Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot weren't renowned as churchgoers.
    Go back 25 or so years. How easy was it for a Catholic lad to get a job in a Protestant-owned small builders?
    Genuine question, as I was told by Ulstermen that it could be difficult. And vice versa, to be fair.

    Go up the social scale and it was a lot easier, according to my friends, who were from both sides.
    Yes and I bet it was the same in England, just based on another "club" or "school tie".
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    isam said:

    It really has come to this... the Empire in reverse

    "White working class children are being “marginalised” at school after being forced to follow a multicultural timetable that shuns British traditions, according to research.

    Large numbers of schools follow a curriculum that celebrates a “diverse range of pupils” while sidelining those from poor British families, it was claimed.

    Head teachers told how they ran numerous projects such as Black History Month and “cultural days” to raise awareness of countries such as Portugal, Poland and Jamaica.

    But it was claimed that white British pupils from deprived homes often “cannot see themselves or their lives reflected in the curriculum”, turning them off school altogether"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10930854/Poor-white-pupils-put-off-school-by-multicultural-timetable.html


    In Tower Hamlets, £7,000 p.a. Is spent per child. In Dorset, it's £4,000 p.a. That cannot be just.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    @NickPalmer

    "... people voted for a party and the Christian Democrats won ..."

    Who are these Christian Democrats? I didn't see them mentioned on the ballot paper I was given. How can this election be touted as the same as any other if we are not given the opportunity to vote for the parties\groups that are now seeking to use the result to claim victory and democratic legitimacy?

    Well you could if you lived in London or Northern Ireland (EPP/N2NI), as I've said I think it was poor form of the EPP block to not even put up candidates in every other region. That they'd have been thrashed by the Lib Dems is not really the point...

    I guess this is a bit what politics in Northern Ireland has felt like for ages.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Palmer, I believe you're wrong. The national leaders decide but must 'take account' [a pathetically vague and useless phrase] of the Parliament's view.

    It's designed to shift power from national governments to the Parliament, as has happened (although Cameron forcing a vote may have set a precedent Parliament will dislike).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    John_M said:

    isam said:

    Sky News saying Cameron was warned, but chose to carry on anyway and looks like a loser

    Are they talking about Coulson or Juncker?

    So, he should have agreed to appoint Junker? I think Cameron will be happier being a loser than an appeasing wanker.
    You actually think he is not both
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/485294/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-I-ll-say-one-thing-about-Cameron-the-guy-s-a-LOSER-he-lost-big-today

    'I'll say one thing about CAMERON: the guy's a LOSER and he lost big today!' blasts Farage
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @NickPalmer

    ' The idea that the result of the very recent election (in which they said, for those who bothered to listen, that they were seeking to make Juncker leader), following two Continent-wide television debates between the candidates,

    They should have read the Labour Euro election manifesto as it was clearly flagged up alongside the cost of living issue.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014

    The idea that the result of the very recent election (in which they said, for those who bothered to listen, that they were seeking to make Juncker leader), following two Continent-wide television debates between the candidates, should be ignored is genuinely baffling to them. It's a bit like when Maggie won an election and as she approached the dispatch box for her first PMQ Dennis Skinner shouted "Resign!" - funny, but not really taken seriously

    That argument makes no sense. There has never previously been a connection between the MEP you vote for and who gets to be president of the commission, and there's nothing in Lisbon to say there should be, other than that the Council, when deciding whom to nominate (and note it is they, not the parliament, who is supposed to do the nomination), should take account of the result. The entire concept of Spitzenkandidats has been invented out of nowhere, and has no basis in the treaties which are supposed to determine how the EU manages its affairs. What's more, no-one bothered to tell UK voters about the concept. I doubt if one voter in a thousand was aware of it in the UK.

    Cameron was absolutely right to kick up a fuss. What's more, our EU friends know he was right, since many of them shared his doubts.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Nige gives it to Dave

    "I hear one thing increasingly whispered about Dave in political and financial circles: the guy is a loser. And my word he lost big today. He bet the ranch on blocking Jean-Claude Juncker, the arch-federalist, as European Commission President. If the humiliation was his alone, it would be just deserts. But I am afraid he has caused our country to be humiliated too.

    The painful truth is that Britain is a bit of a laughing stock today. And the idea that David Cameron is in any position to negotiate a radical new deal that will advance Britain’s interests in Brussels is looking ever more preposterous."

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/485294/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-I-ll-say-one-thing-about-Cameron-the-guy-s-a-LOSER-he-lost-big-today
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh · 40m
    Sun's @tnewtondunn says German tabloid compares Cam to Rooney...'he lines up, he loses, he goes home'.....

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynndirector · 1h
    .@DPJHodges good job for EMil that he is not enduring a week as bad as Cam's, or you might write a blog about it!

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    Mr. Palmer, I believe you're wrong. The national leaders decide but must 'take account' [a pathetically vague and useless phrase] of the Parliament's view.

    It's designed to shift power from national governments to the Parliament, as has happened (although Cameron forcing a vote may have set a precedent Parliament will dislike).

    The national leaders decide who to nominate, taking account of - and then Parliament considers the nomination and says yea or nay. For that matters, Juncker hasn't actually got it yet - Parliament could vote him down, which would be entertaining, if somewhat unlikely.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014
    Anyway, moving on, the underlying position hasn't changed: we can vote Labour, LibDem or UKIP, and accept that the EU should walk all over us, or we can vote Conservative, try renegotiation, see what we can get, hold the referendum, and leave if the deal's not good enough.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    MikeK said:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/485294/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-I-ll-say-one-thing-about-Cameron-the-guy-s-a-LOSER-he-lost-big-today

    'I'll say one thing about CAMERON: the guy's a LOSER and he lost big today!' blasts Farage

    Says the man whose party is yet to run a council or gain even one MP.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    EC politicians tends to behave en masse like kids in a school yard. They're terrified of not being in the right gang. Facts and right and wrong don't come into it.

    As Labour say, the way to make progress is to give in and not fight your corner, on the off chance the bully's gang might let theyou have a few crumbs later.Rather Softy Walter than Dennis the Menace.

    Once you've seen it action, it all becomes clear.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    saddened said:

    MikeK said:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/485294/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-I-ll-say-one-thing-about-Cameron-the-guy-s-a-LOSER-he-lost-big-today

    'I'll say one thing about CAMERON: the guy's a LOSER and he lost big today!' blasts Farage

    Says the man whose party is yet to run a council or gain even one MP.
    He has won a national election

    Farage 1 Cameron 0

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The stories of hundred of 2nd/3rd generation

    What's the Archbishop of Canterbury if not a Christian Community spokesman with a fancier hat?
    There no point having this conversation with people like you
    What? You disagree that that's what he is?

    What I am saying is that people with your attitude are to blame for 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the trouble that will come to England as a result of ISIS
    I think you have an over-simplified view of the issues involved (notably that you made a point and when it's questioned are dodging away from it).
    Not at all, it just isn't worth talking to you on things like this. Your attitude caused all the problems, and when its pointed out you distract with nonsense, I haven't dodged anything.

    Comparing the Head of our national church with some self styled "Muslim Community Leader" is barely worth responding to, although it says everything about you. You are the sort of wishy washy excuse maker that has ruined my country.

    Your national church maybe, not mine.

    But more to the point I gave a whole range of examples of the kind of community leaders who crop up, I wasn't implying they were all on the same level. If you prefer I could've talked about someone lower down the hierarchy, local vicars or whatever. You saying that Muslim community leaders existing shows something only makes sense if you don't apply that logic anywhere else.

    And deaf people? And Jewish communities?

    You're saying the existence of muslim etc community leaders shows something, I just think that any community produces leaders, whether geographical, religious, demographic, hobby based or whatever.
    Deaf people? They are handicapped people who need help from others to exist on a level playing field, not perfectly normal people who choose to differentiate themselves from the population they chose to join on religious grounds.. what a terrible example

    It's an example that the existence of a community leader shows nothing more than the existence of a community.

    Take Jewish communities if you like.

    Any religion, by nature and especially if it involves communal worship creates a community, and communities by nature have leaders.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Isam, yet Cameron's Prime Minister. I suspect that's a defeat he can cope with.

    Mr. Palmer, you have as much chance of persuading me that power hasn't shifted Parliament's way as you do of persuading me Caesar was a better general than Hannibal.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    CD13 said:

    As Labour say, the way to make progress is to give in and not fight your corner, on the off chance the bully's gang might let theyou have a few crumbs later.Rather Softy Walter than Dennis the Menace.

    Except they didn't make any progress using that technique. They even gave half of their tuck to the bully gang (well, our tuck, as carefully won by Mrs T), and just got laughed at.
This discussion has been closed.