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  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Surely the unofficial Muslim world cup final will be when England play another Muslim Country?

    Don't be ridiculous. A football world cup final wouldn't have England in it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    corporeal said:

    Surely the unofficial Muslim world cup final will be when England play another Muslim Country?

    Don't be ridiculous. A football world cup final wouldn't have England in it.
    Oh yeah, I'm confusing the Association Football World Cup Final, with the Rugby Football World Cup Final, where England have appeared three times.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Smarmeron said:

    @AveryLP

    Be careful what you say, or you may get a Putin polonium post through your letterbox (figuratively speaking).

    Yes, Volodya is a dangerous boy.

    But what makes him really odd as a Russian is his complete lack of humour.

    Even Stalin enjoyed a good drink and a joke before killing his subjects.

    I guess it is there though as no one can survive in Russia without a sense of humour. Just drier than James Bond's Martini I suspect.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    corporeal said:

    Surely the unofficial Muslim world cup final will be when England play another Muslim Country?

    Don't be ridiculous. A football world cup final wouldn't have England in it.
    Oh yeah, I'm confusing the Association Football World Cup Final, with the Rugby Football World Cup Final, where England have appeared three times.
    Do we know whether an unsatisfactory result might have any, um, negative consequences for Team Iran?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @AveryLP
    His sense of humour is indeed alive and well.
    Europe tells him not to use gas as a lever, and he goes ahead and does it, leaving Europe to rage while he laughs.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited June 2014
    TOPPING said:

    corporeal said:

    Surely the unofficial Muslim world cup final will be when England play another Muslim Country?

    Don't be ridiculous. A football world cup final wouldn't have England in it.
    Oh yeah, I'm confusing the Association Football World Cup Final, with the Rugby Football World Cup Final, where England have appeared three times.
    Do we know whether an unsatisfactory result might have any, um, negative consequences for Team Iran?
    Well they may take tips from Uday Hussein

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1373322/Saddams-son-tortured-defeated-footballers.html
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheScreamingEagles

    Britain is far more civilized, here the football teams torture the public.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Is it wrong, that I can't stop laughing after reading this

    Greenpeace loses £3m in currency speculation

    Environmental group apologises for record losses last year after employee lost campaign funds on international currency markets

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/16/greenpeace-loses-3m-pounds-currency-speculation
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    AveryLP said:

    It has been said the USA is a nation which has moved from barbarism to decadence without encountering civilisation on the way.

    Given that the USA has the majority of the world's great universities, has more Nobel laureates than any other country, and its period as superpower has overseen a greater spread of liberal democracy - the finest form of civilisation - than any other time in history, that seems like a foolish statement.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Smarmeron said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Britain is far more civilized, here the football teams torture the public.

    Being an England cricket fan in the 90s was a special form of torture.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Is it wrong, that I can't stop laughing after reading this

    Greenpeace loses £3m in currency speculation

    Environmental group apologises for record losses last year after employee lost campaign funds on international currency markets

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/16/greenpeace-loses-3m-pounds-currency-speculation

    Nope, I was giggling earlier at that
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Socrates said:

    AveryLP said:

    It has been said the USA is a nation which has moved from barbarism to decadence without encountering civilisation on the way.

    Given that the USA has the majority of the world's great universities, has more Nobel laureates than any other country, and its period as superpower has overseen a greater spread of liberal democracy - the finest form of civilisation - than any other time in history, that seems like a foolish statement.
    I'll make a note of that, Socrates.

    Thank you.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Nigeria Iran is like watching paint dry. With no beer and a bag over your head. While listening to Phil Neville.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,592

    OK, season finale of Game of Thrones. All politics can stop for 70 minutes....

    I won't see it until Wednesday, so any plot spoilers, and I'll send you to Lord Bolton for a good flaying.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited June 2014
    Ivory Coast were the best of the African teams so far, though we are still to see Ghana and Algeria. Algeria have the excellent winger Riyad Mahrez. Leicester Citys only representative in Brazil.
    SeanT said:

    It's weird how non-European, non-South American football teams are still, to be blunt, a bit crap (with the modest exception of the USA, who should be brilliant given their resources)

    Football is the biggest sport throughout Africa, the Mid East, central America, much of Asia.

    Yet all their teams are still bollocks.

    Why?

    Indeed there have only been eight World Cup winning teams in 19 World Cups: Uruguay, Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil, France, England, Spain. And the chances are the winner this time will come from the same limited pool (albeit not England, sadly) - unless Holland pull a blinder.

    Curious.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    SeanT said:

    It's weird how non-European, non-South American football teams are still, to be blunt, a bit crap (with the modest exception of the USA, who should be brilliant given their resources)

    Football is the biggest sport throughout Africa, the Mid East, central America, much of Asia.

    Yet all their teams are still bollocks.

    Why?

    Indeed there have only been eight World Cup winning teams in 19 World Cups: Uruguay, Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil, France, England, Spain. And the chances are the winner this time will come from the same limited pool (albeit not England, sadly) - unless Holland pull a blinder.

    Curious.

    Well at least it can't be lower average IQ, Sean.

    Probably not shorter legs either.

    I'm baffled.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    ToryJim said:

    @LBC: On Ed Miliband, Harriet Harman tells @IainDale that: 'he was right to pose with the Sun and right to apologise for it afterwards'.

    Erm

    LOL at Labour tying themselves up in knots
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    Nigeria Iran is like watching paint dry. With no beer and a bag over your head. While listening to Phil Neville.

    At least with Germany vs. Portugal, you could turn down the sound, turn up Test Match Special and listen to Bloers.

    It is where Socrates gets the US so wrong. Who is their Henry Blofeld?

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    AveryLP said:

    Nigeria Iran is like watching paint dry. With no beer and a bag over your head. While listening to Phil Neville.

    At least with Germany vs. Portugal, you could turn down the sound, turn up Test Match Special and listen to Bloers.

    It is where Socrates gets the US so wrong. Who is their Henry Blofeld?

    Baseball commentary isn't a million miles away.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Looks like this is going to be the first 0-0 match of the tournament so far.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    I have no idea of their politics but as individuals I am very happy for the Iranian players.

    Just goes to show how football can bring people together; if they get through it will be a huge positive for world peace.

    *sobs*
  • AveryLP said:

    Socrates said:

    AveryLP said:

    It has been said the USA is a nation which has moved from barbarism to decadence without encountering civilisation on the way.

    Given that the USA has the majority of the world's great universities, has more Nobel laureates than any other country, and its period as superpower has overseen a greater spread of liberal democracy - the finest form of civilisation - than any other time in history, that seems like a foolish statement.
    I'll make a note of that, Socrates.

    Thank you.

    It's sad that the USA should have such a flawed "democratic" system.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 7s
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by four: CON 32%, LAB 36%, LD 10%, UKIP 14%
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics · 18s
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by four: CON 32%, LAB 36%, LD 10%, UKIP 14%

  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    @Sun_Politics: YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by four: CON 32%, LAB 36%, LD 10%, UKIP 14%
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    AveryLP said:

    It has been said the USA is a nation which has moved from barbarism to decadence without encountering civilisation on the way.

    Given that the USA has the majority of the world's great universities, has more Nobel laureates than any other country, and its period as superpower has overseen a greater spread of liberal democracy - the finest form of civilisation - than any other time in history, that seems like a foolish statement.

    During the "American century" we saw the First World War, the Second World War, the Holocaust, and the rise of Maoist and Stalinist communism - surely the five most appalling "man-made" disasters in human history. Also we saw the Cold War, the first time mankind's very existence has been threatened on planet earth.

    On the upside we saw the capitalist enrichment of the Chinese - 500 million people lifted out of poverty - though I'm unsure what America had to do with this.

    I'd say there are reasonable arguments for rating the era of Pax Britannica or Pax Romana as being better for homo sapiens as a whole.
    The United States' dominance of world affairs didn't really begin until their intervention in the Second World War. The first World War was certainly on the UK's watch, and the interwar period leading to the Second World War/Stalinism/Holocaust was a multipolar world similar to the one we are entering now. Maoism I'll agree happened on the US watch, but given they were rebuilding Europe and Japan at the same time. As for the Cold War, the "cold" bit is the crucial part here. The US arrived on the scene with the most powerful brutal empire ever seen, armed with nukes, and it successfully held off nuclear war while containing the spread of communism for fifty years, ultimately winning out and creating a huge spread of freedom. The 1945-2010 period has seen a greater spread of prosperity and liberty than ever before. Pax Britannica, on the other hand, saw the world carved up for the benefit of European governments. Britain herself subjugated millions. India is just the largest example, which had a system of monopolies and taxation that kept hundreds of millions in poverty.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    AveryLP said:

    Socrates said:

    AveryLP said:

    It has been said the USA is a nation which has moved from barbarism to decadence without encountering civilisation on the way.

    Given that the USA has the majority of the world's great universities, has more Nobel laureates than any other country, and its period as superpower has overseen a greater spread of liberal democracy - the finest form of civilisation - than any other time in history, that seems like a foolish statement.
    I'll make a note of that, Socrates.

    Thank you.

    It's sad that the USA should have such a flawed "democratic" system.
    Here, the Prime Minister gets to blame Nick Clegg for not being able to do what they want. In the US, they have Congress, which fills that role on a permanent basis.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Socrates said:

    India is just the largest example, which had a system of monopolies and taxation that kept hundreds of millions in poverty.

    As opposed to the democratic system India had after we left, which had a series of monopolies and taxation that kept millions in poverty.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    I'm warming to Phil Neville.

    He just said "I loved social media until about 24 hours ago"
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    I'm warming to Phil Neville.

    He just said "I loved social media until about 24 hours ago"

    The twittermob give and the twittermob taketh away ;)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    AveryLP said:

    It has been said the USA is a nation which has moved from barbarism to decadence without encountering civilisation on the way.

    Given that the USA has the majority of the world's great universities, has more Nobel laureates than any other country, and its period as superpower has overseen a greater spread of liberal democracy - the finest form of civilisation - than any other time in history, that seems like a foolish statement.

    During the "American century" we saw the First World War, the Second World War, the Holocaust, and the rise of Maoist and Stalinist communism - surely the five most appalling "man-made" disasters in human history. Also we saw the Cold War, the first time mankind's very existence has been threatened on planet earth.

    On the upside we saw the capitalist enrichment of the Chinese - 500 million people lifted out of poverty - though I'm unsure what America had to do with this.

    I'd say there are reasonable arguments for rating the era of Pax Britannica or Pax Romana as being better for homo sapiens as a whole.
    Pax Romana, definitely not. You posted a very chilling post, four years ago, about the delights of the Roman Arena, in advance of The Bible of the Dead. IMO, Rome was a bloody evil society, flattered by the chaos that followed its collapse.

    Pax Britannica had both good and bad points. The English legal system, integration into world trade networks, relatively honest administration, were good things. Brutality and exploitation of some of the subjects were not.

    As hegemonies go, America's has been pretty benign.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937


    I won't see it until Wednesday, so any plot spoilers, and I'll send you to Lord Bolton for a good flaying.

    No spoilers. Just, don't die before Wednesday.....

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    AveryLP said:

    SeanT said:

    It's weird how non-European, non-South American football teams are still, to be blunt, a bit crap (with the modest exception of the USA, who should be brilliant given their resources)

    Football is the biggest sport throughout Africa, the Mid East, central America, much of Asia.

    Yet all their teams are still bollocks.

    Why?

    Indeed there have only been eight World Cup winning teams in 19 World Cups: Uruguay, Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil, France, England, Spain. And the chances are the winner this time will come from the same limited pool (albeit not England, sadly) - unless Holland pull a blinder.

    Curious.

    Well at least it can't be lower average IQ, Sean.

    Probably not shorter legs either.

    I'm baffled.
    It could have something to do with height aka nutrition.

    (not wholly)

    The original list is very not random:
    Italy, Spain
    -- Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay
    France, Germany, England

    so there will likely be common factors
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2014
    ToryJim said:
    It's the two arm victory salute that is so reassuring.

    Now, how should Dave celebrate if England ever get lucky?

    An abrupt "shot, sir!" with a repeated double hand clap is what I would recommend. All while remaining seated, of course.

    I fear he won't take my advice, though. I feel a Miliband moment coming on instead.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    AveryLP said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @AveryLP

    Be careful what you say, or you may get a Putin polonium post through your letterbox (figuratively speaking).

    Yes, Volodya is a dangerous boy.

    But what makes him really odd as a Russian is his complete lack of humour.

    Even Stalin enjoyed a good drink and a joke before killing his subjects.

    I guess it is there though as no one can survive in Russia without a sense of humour. Just drier than James Bond's Martini I suspect.
    saw this the other day

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ux3oiWELIQ&feature=kp
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    AveryLP said:

    It has been said the USA is a nation which has moved from barbarism to decadence without encountering civilisation on the way.

    Given that the USA has the majority of the world's great universities, has more Nobel laureates than any other country, and its period as superpower has overseen a greater spread of liberal democracy - the finest form of civilisation - than any other time in history, that seems like a foolish statement.

    During the "American century" we saw the First World War, the Second World War, the Holocaust, and the rise of Maoist and Stalinist communism - surely the five most appalling "man-made" disasters in human history. Also we saw the Cold War, the first time mankind's very existence has been threatened on planet earth.

    On the upside we saw the capitalist enrichment of the Chinese - 500 million people lifted out of poverty - though I'm unsure what America had to do with this.

    I'd say there are reasonable arguments for rating the era of Pax Britannica or Pax Romana as being better for homo sapiens as a whole.
    Pax Romana, definitely not. You posted a very chilling post, four years ago, about the delights of the Roman Arena, in advance of The Bible of the Dead. IMO, Rome was a bloody evil society, flattered by the chaos that followed its collapse.

    Pax Britannica had both good and bad points. The English legal system, integration into world trade networks, relatively honest administration, were good things. Brutality and exploitation of some of the subjects were not.

    As hegemonies go, America's has been pretty benign.
    Well then I disagree with myself. Given the chaos and barbarity and iron age squalor that surrounded it, the Roman Empire was a remarkable achievement, providing four-five centuries of relative peace, security and civilisation.

    Sure the mass baboon rape of virgins thing wasn't totally great, but consider the alternative.
    It's impossible not to admire the courage and public spirit that the Romans displayed in their rise to greatness. Something like a quarter of the Senate died at Cannae. What modern legislature would send a quarter of its members to die in war?

    It's the relentless depravity, slave-hunting, and delight in cruelty that came afterwards that sours my view of them.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Merkel does look a bit like Adolf. Makes you wonder if there ever was a "Boys from Brazil" it would have been easier to hide if it was "Girls from Brazil".
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The upper class in India is probably the most bigoted in the world. Their sense of entitlement is gigantic. They don't even acknowledge the existence of low cast people a lot of the time.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    MrJones said:

    Merkel does look a bit like Adolf. Makes you wonder if there ever was a "Boys from Brazil" it would have been easier to hide if it was "Girls from Brazil".

    You need to get yourself to specsavers if you think Angela looks like Adolf.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534


    I won't see it until Wednesday, so any plot spoilers, and I'll send you to Lord Bolton for a good flaying.

    No spoilers. Just, don't die before Wednesday.....

    If you think this has a happy ending......you haven't been paying attention.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:

    Merkel does look a bit like Adolf. Makes you wonder if there ever was a "Boys from Brazil" it would have been easier to hide if it was "Girls from Brazil".

    You need to get yourself to specsavers if you think Angela looks like Adolf.
    or you
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @SeanT

    If Rome was such a blessing. why did the native people kick them out when they could?
    Same for your fantasy dreams of the British Empire?
    Remember that the people of Britain had been trading with the Phonecians for centuries before the Romans came, so would have some idea of "civilization".
  • Harrier Harman is absolutely right in her assessment of Ed Miliband's photoshoot with the Sun. He was right to do it; this will have eternally endeared him to the White Working Class voters of South-East England. He was right to apologise for it; this will have bolstered his already impressive standing with the White Working Class voters of the North-West. This is the same deft agile campaigning style which we in Labour will wheel out time and time again in the General Election campaign.

    The Tory Party has a Woman Problem. We are the party of Angela Eagle. We are the party of Kerry McCarthy. And yes, we are the party of Rosie Winterton. Who in the Tory Party has ever reached such rarefied heights?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Is anyone here going to Royal Ascot?

    I am working there all week, so let me know and maybe we can say hello!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Harrier Harman is absolutely right in her assessment of Ed Miliband's photoshoot with the Sun. He was right to do it; this will have eternally endeared him to the White Working Class voters of South-East England. He was right to apologise for it; this will have bolstered his already impressive standing with the White Working Class voters of the North-West. This is the same deft agile campaigning style which we in Labour will wheel out time and time again in the General Election campaign.

    The Tory Party has a Woman Problem. We are the party of Angela Eagle. We are the party of Kerry McCarthy. And yes, we are the party of Rosie Winterton. Who in the Tory Party has ever reached such rarefied heights?

    Kerry McCarthy, the one with the police caution for electoral fraud?

    Whereas we are the party of Margaret Thatcher.

    How many times have Labour elected a woman as leader?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121

    Harrier Harman is absolutely right in her assessment of Ed Miliband's photoshoot with the Sun. He was right to do it; this will have eternally endeared him to the White Working Class voters of South-East England. He was right to apologise for it; this will have bolstered his already impressive standing with the White Working Class voters of the North-West. This is the same deft agile campaigning style which we in Labour will wheel out time and time again in the General Election campaign.

    The Tory Party has a Woman Problem. We are the party of Angela Eagle. We are the party of Kerry McCarthy. And yes, we are the party of Rosie Winterton. Who in the Tory Party has ever reached such rarefied heights?

    Dude! You forgot about Rachel Reeves!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Harrier Harman is absolutely right in her assessment of Ed Miliband's photoshoot with the Sun. He was right to do it; this will have eternally endeared him to the White Working Class voters of South-East England. He was right to apologise for it; this will have bolstered his already impressive standing with the White Working Class voters of the North-West. This is the same deft agile campaigning style which we in Labour will wheel out time and time again in the General Election campaign.

    The Tory Party has a Woman Problem. We are the party of Angela Eagle. We are the party of Kerry McCarthy. And yes, we are the party of Rosie Winterton. Who in the Tory Party has ever reached such rarefied heights?

    Kerry McCarthy, the one with the police caution for electoral fraud?

    Whereas we are the party of Margaret Thatcher.

    How many times have Labour elected a woman as leader?
    A wind up has claimed a victim I fear
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    isam said:

    Harrier Harman is absolutely right in her assessment of Ed Miliband's photoshoot with the Sun. He was right to do it; this will have eternally endeared him to the White Working Class voters of South-East England. He was right to apologise for it; this will have bolstered his already impressive standing with the White Working Class voters of the North-West. This is the same deft agile campaigning style which we in Labour will wheel out time and time again in the General Election campaign.

    The Tory Party has a Woman Problem. We are the party of Angela Eagle. We are the party of Kerry McCarthy. And yes, we are the party of Rosie Winterton. Who in the Tory Party has ever reached such rarefied heights?

    Kerry McCarthy, the one with the police caution for electoral fraud?

    Whereas we are the party of Margaret Thatcher.

    How many times have Labour elected a woman as leader?
    A wind up has claimed a victim I fear
    I know, Kerry McCarthy is what did it for me.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.

    Quite. The best US universities are world beating. Yet America is mediocre in PISA rankings and is dropping fast.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    The most ominous stat is that Shanghai students (supposedly the best in China) are fully two years ahead, educationally, compared to those of Massachusetts (supposedly the best in the USA).

    Whatever way you look at it, the weathervanes for America point towards significant relative decline. Gentle, but inexorable.
    Asian-Americans out perform Asians, European-Americans outperform Europeans and African-Americans outperform Africans on the PISA test. That is if we are comparing apples with apples and pears with pears.

    Still I find it funny that America is today the evil empire, aggressively pushing permanent revolution, minoritarianism, political correctness and corrosive social values. A Trotskyite wet dream, whereas the rapidly advancing formerly Communist countries of China and Russia stand up for the values of 50s America. As John O'Sullivan remarked 'for much of the world's left, the U.S.today is utopia'. As such there can be only one loser and that is America, a fate every conservative looks forward to.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Smarmeron said:

    @SeanT

    If Rome was such a blessing. why did the native people kick them out when they could?
    Same for your fantasy dreams of the British Empire?
    Remember that the people of Britain had been trading with the Phonecians for centuries before the Romans came, so would have some idea of "civilization".

    "The native people" counted for little. It was the elites that saw advantage or disadvantage in being part of the Roman Empire. By the 5th century AD, many of the Western European elites were thoroughly disaffected, due to relentless civil wars and purges, at the same time as being menaced by the Barbarians (many of whom were paradoxically employed by the Imperial government).
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Sean_F
    Not much has changed since then, has it?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Your idolatry of America sometimes teeters on the absurd. You can't simultaneously give America credit for everything good that happened under its watch, and carefully exonerate it of everything bad, while doing the opposite to Britain 1750-1930.

    Britain CREATED the world's biggest democracy - India - and the world's mightiest democracy - America. The modern world, post 1700, was shaped by Britain more than any other nation, I'd say, and shaped in a positive way. And that's ignoring the miracle of the English language.

    As Paul Johnson says, the two races who have given most to the world are the English and the Jews.

    Also, we invented Masterchef.

    I don't give credit to America for everything good that happened under its watch, nor do I do the opposite for Britain. Britain has given huge amounts to the world - in literature, in science, in political values - and deserves huge praise for that. But let's not put the blinders on here. In terms of our management of world affairs, we did not push things in a liberal democratic direction the way the US did.

    The whole reason Britain gave up India in the first place was because Roosevelt sat Churchill down and told him clearly the US would not accept Britain in the first place. If it wasn't for the Americans, India wouldn't have had that democracy. I actually think Britain did very well in how it managed independence, given the circumstances, but the release does not make up for the centuries of oppression before that. Just look at what happened to literacy rates in the decades after independence compared to the decades before to see what a constraint we were on that country.

    I'm not blind to America's faults. I am ever ready to criticise the corporatist take over of their republic. Wars such as Vietnam and Iraq were reckless mistakes, and the depositions of governments during the Cold War at times betrayed their values. But we need to look at the big picture. The USA, as top dog, was responsible for hundreds of millions of people getting to benefit from liberal democracy, which is the greatest thing a society can have. The UK as top dog, instead oversaw the spread of colonial subjugation. There's no getting round that.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    Not much has changed since then, has it?

    I think there are disturbing parallels between the quality of government in modern Western states and the quality of government in the late Roman Empire. In both cases, one gets a clear sense of the best years being behind us.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121

    Harrier Harman is absolutely right in her assessment of Ed Miliband's photoshoot with the Sun. He was right to do it; this will have eternally endeared him to the White Working Class voters of South-East England. He was right to apologise for it; this will have bolstered his already impressive standing with the White Working Class voters of the North-West. This is the same deft agile campaigning style which we in Labour will wheel out time and time again in the General Election campaign.

    The Tory Party has a Woman Problem. We are the party of Angela Eagle. We are the party of Kerry McCarthy. And yes, we are the party of Rosie Winterton. Who in the Tory Party has ever reached such rarefied heights?

    Harrier Harman?

    :)
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    FalseFlag said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.

    Quite. The best US universities are world beating. Yet America is mediocre in PISA rankings and is dropping fast.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    The most ominous stat is that Shanghai students (supposedly the best in China) are fully two years ahead, educationally, compared to those of Massachusetts (supposedly the best in the USA).

    Whatever way you look at it, the weathervanes for America point towards significant relative decline. Gentle, but inexorable.
    Asian-Americans out perform Asians, European-Americans outperform Europeans and African-Americans outperform Africans on the PISA test. That is if we are comparing apples with apples and pears with pears.

    Still I find it funny that America is today the evil empire, aggressively pushing permanent revolution, minoritarianism, political correctness and corrosive social values. A Trotskyite wet dream, whereas the rapidly advancing formerly Communist countries of China and Russia stand up for the values of 50s America. As John O'Sullivan remarked 'for much of the world's left, the U.S.today is utopia'. As such there can be only one loser and that is America, a fate every conservative looks forward to.
    Ah, if only we could look back to the days when gays could be lynched and Jews weren't allowed into the country club.

    America is undoubtedly a better society today than China and Russia. That's why Chinese and Russian people desperately try to migrate into the United States, but Americans, on the whole, don't do it the other way.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    USA's best years behind them? Maybe not in soccer!
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Sean_F

    Our best days may be in front of us, as long as we stop using the same tired formula that we have had for almost two millenia .
    .....Nah, your right, we are fooked.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kle4 said:

    ToryJim said:

    @LBC: On Ed Miliband, Harriet Harman tells @IainDale that: 'he was right to pose with the Sun and right to apologise for it afterwards'.

    Erm

    That cannot possibly be genuine, can it? Dear gods. I'm sure they'll do an adequate or at least not disastrous job running the country in a year's time, but Labour really are not exuding much confidence in themselves.

    If you really think that Labour under Ed M will do an adequate or at least not disastrous job running the country in a year's time, then I fear that you are in for a rude awakening if he does blunder into No 10.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.

    Quite. The best US universities are world beating. Yet America is mediocre in PISA rankings and is dropping fast.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    The most ominous stat is that Shanghai students (supposedly the best in China) are fully two years ahead, educationally, compared to those of Massachusetts (supposedly the best in the USA).

    Whatever way you look at it, the weathervanes for America point towards significant relative decline. Gentle, but inexorable.
    Asian-Americans out perform Asians, European-Americans outperform Europeans and African-Americans outperform Africans on the PISA test. That is if we are comparing apples with apples and pears with pears.

    Still I find it funny that America is today the evil empire, aggressively pushing permanent revolution, minoritarianism, political correctness and corrosive social values. A Trotskyite wet dream, whereas the rapidly advancing formerly Communist countries of China and Russia stand up for the values of 50s America. As John O'Sullivan remarked 'for much of the world's left, the U.S.today is utopia'. As such there can be only one loser and that is America, a fate every conservative looks forward to.
    Ah, if only we could look back to the days when gays could be lynched and Jews weren't allowed into the country club.

    America is undoubtedly a better society today than China and Russia. That's why Chinese and Russian people desperately try to migrate into the United States, but Americans, on the whole, don't do it the other way.
    True believer.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121

    USA's best years behind them? Maybe not in soccer!

    Looks like an English-speaking country might actually win a match!

    Iran v. Nigeria was the first disappointing match, bore-draw that it was.

    Germans completely mastering the Portuguese seemed to mirror Holland's mastery of the Spanish!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Your idolatry of America sometimes teeters on the absurd. You can't simultaneously give America credit for everything good that happened under its watch, and carefully exonerate it of everything bad, while doing the opposite to Britain 1750-1930.

    Britain CREATED the world's biggest democracy - India - and the world's mightiest democracy - America. The modern world, post 1700, was shaped by Britain more than any other nation, I'd say, and shaped in a positive way. And that's ignoring the miracle of the English language.

    As Paul Johnson says, the two races who have given most to the world are the English and the Jews.

    Also, we invented Masterchef.

    I don't give credit to America for everything good that happened under its watch, nor do I do the opposite for Britain. Britain has given huge amounts to the world - in literature, in science, in political values - and deserves huge praise for that. But let's not put the blinders on here. In terms of our management of world affairs, we did not push things in a liberal democratic direction the way the US did.

    The whole reason Britain gave up India in the first place was because Roosevelt sat Churchill down and told him clearly the US would not accept Britain in the first place. If it wasn't for the Americans, India wouldn't have had that democracy. I actually think Britain did very well in how it managed independence, given the circumstances, but the release does not make up for the centuries of oppression before that. Just look at what happened to literacy rates in the decades after independence compared to the decades before to see what a constraint we were on that country.

    I'm not blind to America's faults. I am ever ready to criticise the corporatist take over of their republic. Wars such as Vietnam and Iraq were reckless mistakes, and the depositions of governments during the Cold War at times betrayed their values. But we need to look at the big picture. The USA, as top dog, was responsible for hundreds of millions of people getting to benefit from liberal democracy, which is the greatest thing a society can have. The UK as top dog, instead oversaw the spread of colonial subjugation. There's no getting round that.

    I think that Roosevelt et al were motivated more by a desire to replace the UK as top dog, rather than by a desire to spread liberal democracy per se. The US was somewhat lacking in liberal democratic values in the era of Jim Crow.

    I accept that supporting NATO, Taiwan, South Korea etc. had the fortunate consequence of spreading liberal democracy. As against that the US did back some real monsters, as well.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014
    As regards the Romans, surely any assessment of how disagreeable they were to slaves, virgins, vanquished warriors, and so on, has to be put into the context of their contemporaries? I don't imagine, for example, that the assorted invaders from the North whom Astérix memorably calls the 'Visigoths, Ostrogoths, et Goths tout court' were terribly considerate to the hapless citizens who happened to be in their way.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited June 2014
    @Richard_Nabavi

    Nothing wrong with slavery, as long as the consumer is willing to ignore it.

    (or at least that's what the Tory spokesman said) paraphrased
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:


    I think that Roosevelt et al were motivated more by a desire to replace the UK as top dog, rather than by a desire to spread liberal democracy per se. The US was somewhat lacking in liberal democratic values in the era of Jim Crow.

    I disagree. I think they had a genuine belief in anti-imperialism, due to their own history. I agree that Jim Crow was an ugly stain on America's history, but it was possible at the time to believe in segregation within societies while opposing rule of one country by another.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Thank god America scored, it might recoup some of my huge losses today.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.

    Quite. The best US universities are world beating. Yet America is mediocre in PISA rankings and is dropping fast.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    The most ominous stat is that Shanghai students (supposedly the best in China) are fully two years ahead, educationally, compared to those of Massachusetts (supposedly the best in the USA).

    Whatever way you look at it, the weathervanes for America point towards significant relative decline. Gentle, but inexorable.
    Asian-Americans out perform Asians, European-Americans outperform Europeans and African-Americans outperform Africans on the PISA test. That is if we are comparing apples with apples and pears with pears.

    Still I find it funny that America is today the evil empire, aggressively pushing permanent revolution, minoritarianism, political correctness and corrosive social values. A Trotskyite wet dream, whereas the rapidly advancing formerly Communist countries of China and Russia stand up for the values of 50s America. As John O'Sullivan remarked 'for much of the world's left, the U.S.today is utopia'. As such there can be only one loser and that is America, a fate every conservative looks forward to.
    Ah, if only we could look back to the days when gays could be lynched and Jews weren't allowed into the country club.

    America is undoubtedly a better society today than China and Russia. That's why Chinese and Russian people desperately try to migrate into the United States, but Americans, on the whole, don't do it the other way.
    True believer.
    Says the guy that believes in Jewish conspiracies.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Socrates said:

    I don't give credit to America for everything good that happened under its watch, nor do I do the opposite for Britain. Britain has given huge amounts to the world - in literature, in science, in political values - and deserves huge praise for that. But let's not put the blinders on here. In terms of our management of world affairs, we did not push things in a liberal democratic direction the way the US did.

    The whole reason Britain gave up India in the first place was because Roosevelt sat Churchill down and told him clearly the US would not accept Britain in the first place. If it wasn't for the Americans, India wouldn't have had that democracy. I actually think Britain did very well in how it managed independence, given the circumstances, but the release does not make up for the centuries of oppression before that. Just look at what happened to literacy rates in the decades after independence compared to the decades before to see what a constraint we were on that country.

    I'm not blind to America's faults. I am ever ready to criticise the corporatist take over of their republic. Wars such as Vietnam and Iraq were reckless mistakes, and the depositions of governments during the Cold War at times betrayed their values. But we need to look at the big picture. The USA, as top dog, was responsible for hundreds of millions of people getting to benefit from liberal democracy, which is the greatest thing a society can have. The UK as top dog, instead oversaw the spread of colonial subjugation. There's no getting round that.

    It's too late at night to get into detail on such a big subject, but that is a breathtaking piece of historical revisionism.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    As regards the Romans, surely any assessment of how disagreeable they were to slaves, virgins, vanquished warriors, and so on, has to be put into the context of their contemporaries? I don't imagine, for example, that the assorted invaders from the North whom Astérix memorably calls the 'Visigoths, Ostrogoths, et Goths tout court' were terribly considerate to the hapless citizens who happened to be in their way.

    Good and ill do not change with time. The evil behaviour of your neighbour does not mitigate your own evils.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    I think this is intellectually mediocre drivel. Sorry. America spread English values, and did it with the virility of an undisputed superpower merely because England gave her all defeating Nazism.

    The world never had a more "sweet, just boyish master" than the English, as Santayana said.

    Anyway now America is on the wane and China's in charge. Or soon will be, Let's see what they do. I recommend we all master chopsticks, and spitting.

    It's too late at night to get into detail on such a big subject, but that is a breathtaking piece of historical revisionism.

    Two cases of just blanket disagreement without engagement on the actual arguments.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014
    Socrates said:



    Good and ill do not change with time. The evil behaviour of your neighbour does not mitigate your own evils.

    Who said it did? But you need to be clear whether you are talking about the Romans, or about (say) nastiness in various societies the second or third century AD.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    quite entertaining translating arabic tweets from twitter in google translate - seem to be saying martians have invaded Anbar province and Maliki has fled to Mufti wherever that may be
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.

    Quite. The best US universities are world beating. Yet America is mediocre in PISA rankings and is dropping fast.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    The most ominous stat is that Shanghai students (supposedly the best in China) are fully two years ahead, educationally, compared to those of Massachusetts (supposedly the best in the USA).

    Whatever way you look at it, the weathervanes for America point towards significant relative decline. Gentle, but inexorable.
    Asian-Americans out perform Asians, European-Americans outperform Europeans and African-Americans outperform Africans on the PISA test. That is if we are comparing apples with apples and pears with pears.

    Still I find it funny that America is today the evil empire, aggressively pushing permanent revolution, minoritarianism, political correctness and corrosive social values. A Trotskyite wet dream, whereas the rapidly advancing formerly Communist countries of China and Russia stand up for the values of 50s America. As John O'Sullivan remarked 'for much of the world's left, the U.S.today is utopia'. As such there can be only one loser and that is America, a fate every conservative looks forward to.
    Ah, if only we could look back to the days when gays could be lynched and Jews weren't allowed into the country club.

    America is undoubtedly a better society today than China and Russia. That's why Chinese and Russian people desperately try to migrate into the United States, but Americans, on the whole, don't do it the other way.
    Yes now we live in a world were it is laudatory only for jews to establish exclusivist clubs, charities and even countries when others are condemned for doing the same.

    Minoritarianism, when the minority is not just given equal rights but special status, above the rights given to others.

    I think you will find the numbers of Chinese and Russians emigrating to the US is declining rapidly and wil cease once economic parity is reached.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Your idolatry of America sometimes teeters on the absurd. You can't simultaneously give America credit for everything good that happened under its watch, and carefully exonerate it of everything bad, while doing the opposite to Britain 1750-1930.

    Britain CREATED the world's biggest democracy - India - and the world's mightiest democracy - America. The modern world, post 1700, was shaped by Britain more than any other nation, I'd say, and shaped in a positive way. And that's ignoring the miracle of the English language.

    As Paul Johnson says, the two races who have given most to the world are the English and the Jews.

    Also, we invented Masterchef.

    I actually think Britain did very well in how it managed independence, given the circumstances, but the release does not make up for the centuries of oppression before that. Just look at what happened to literacy rates in the decades after independence compared to the decades before to see what a constraint we were on that country.

    Well that's just nonsense on stilts, Independence and the Partition of India probably claimed the lives of nearly a million people.

    If that's managing it well, then Christ only knows what managing badly is.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.

    Quite. The best US universities are world beating. Yet America is mediocre in PISA rankings and is dropping fast.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    The most ominous stat is that Shanghai students (supposedly the best in China) are fully two years ahead, educationally, compared to those of Massachusetts (supposedly the best in the USA).

    Whatever way you look at it, the weathervanes for America point towards significant relative decline. Gentle, but inexorable.
    Asian-Americans out perform Asians, European-Americans outperform Europeans and African-Americans outperform Africans on the PISA test. That is if we are comparing apples with apples and pears with pears.

    Still I find it funny that America is today the evil empire, aggressively pushing permanent revolution, minoritarianism, political correctness and corrosive social values. A Trotskyite wet dream, whereas the rapidly advancing formerly Communist countries of China and Russia stand up for the values of 50s America. As John O'Sullivan remarked 'for much of the world's left, the U.S.today is utopia'. As such there can be only one loser and that is America, a fate every conservative looks forward to.
    Ah, if only we could look back to the days when gays could be lynched and Jews weren't allowed into the country club.

    America is undoubtedly a better society today than China and Russia. That's why Chinese and Russian people desperately try to migrate into the United States, but Americans, on the whole, don't do it the other way.
    Yes now we live in a world were it is laudatory only for jews to establish exclusivist clubs, charities and even countries when others are condemned for doing the same.

    Minoritarianism, when the minority is not just given equal rights but special status, above the rights given to others.

    I think you will find the numbers of Chinese and Russians emigrating to the US is declining rapidly and wil cease once economic parity is reached.
    Russia will never reach economic parity with the USA. It is web of corruption, entirely based off high gas prices. The fact you have more of an issue with people forming a Jewish society than gays being beaten up on the streets of Moscow just shows how lacking in basic human decency you are.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:


    I think that Roosevelt et al were motivated more by a desire to replace the UK as top dog, rather than by a desire to spread liberal democracy per se. The US was somewhat lacking in liberal democratic values in the era of Jim Crow.

    I disagree. I think they had a genuine belief in anti-imperialism, due to their own history. I agree that Jim Crow was an ugly stain on America's history, but it was possible at the time to believe in segregation within societies while opposing rule of one country by another.
    But again, the US has conducted wars of imperial aggression in its history. Against Canada in 1812, Mexico in 1848, Spain in 1898. The Plains were subjugated with considerable brutality in the Nineteenth century. Latin American governments that were deemed hostile were routinely toppled.

    I'm not arguing that the US was worse than the UK, Russia, or France at a similar point in their history. Just not very different.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I always remember going to America in the early 90s when I was about 10 years old and being totally blown away by how modern the country was. Sadly that sort of zeitgeist seems to have disappeared now.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014
    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I think this is intellectually mediocre drivel. Sorry. America spread English values, and did it with the virility of an undisputed superpower merely because England gave her all defeating Nazism.

    The world never had a more "sweet, just boyish master" than the English, as Santayana said.

    Anyway now America is on the wane and China's in charge. Or soon will be, Let's see what they do. I recommend we all master chopsticks, and spitting.

    It's too late at night to get into detail on such a big subject, but that is a breathtaking piece of historical revisionism.

    Two cases of just blanket disagreement without engagement on the actual arguments.
    Well it's a big subject. As I said, your historical revisionism is so breathtaking that it's hard to know where to start, but here are four places you could start thinking about:

    1) Are you comparing the twentieth century with, say, the eighteenth?

    2) Have you forgotten that it was the Royal Navy which enforced the ban on slave-trading across the oceans (and yes, I know that Britain was heavily involved in the trade before that)?

    3) Writing off Vietnam, to take one example, as a 'mistake' is absurdly generous to the US.

    4) I'm not sure your rewrite of the history of the independence of India is quite right, but, even if it were, the rushed withdrawal from India was an unmitigated humanitarian disaster, on a par with the disaster of Iraq, only on a larger scale.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited June 2014
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:


    I think that Roosevelt et al were motivated more by a desire to replace the UK as top dog, rather than by a desire to spread liberal democracy per se. The US was somewhat lacking in liberal democratic values in the era of Jim Crow.

    I disagree. I think they had a genuine belief in anti-imperialism, due to their own history. I agree that Jim Crow was an ugly stain on America's history, but it was possible at the time to believe in segregation within societies while opposing rule of one country by another.
    But again, the US has conducted wars of imperial aggression in its history. Against Canada in 1812, Mexico in 1848, Spain in 1898. The Plains were subjugated with considerable brutality in the Nineteenth century. Latin American governments that were deemed hostile were routinely toppled.

    I'm not arguing that the US was worse than the UK, Russia, or France at a similar point in their history. Just not very different.

    Yes, this is true - and it was hypocritical of them. They allowed their concept of "Manifest Destiny" to excuse their own imperialism and kid themselves they weren't being imperialist themselves. But two of those wars - against the British Empire in 1812 and the Spanish Empire in 1898 - were justified (in the eyes of the Americans) in terms of anti-imperialism.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Just read Rod Liddle's "Selfish, Whining Monkeys" on Kindle. Fantastic piece of polemical writing, highly recommended:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Selfish-Whining-Monkeys-Narcissistic-Unhappy/dp/0007351275
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    I miss the Professor and Adrian, so good that they always regularly managed to reel in a healthy catch of PB posters every single time they posted. :)

    Harrier Harman is absolutely right in her assessment of Ed Miliband's photoshoot with the Sun. He was right to do it; this will have eternally endeared him to the White Working Class voters of South-East England. He was right to apologise for it; this will have bolstered his already impressive standing with the White Working Class voters of the North-West. This is the same deft agile campaigning style which we in Labour will wheel out time and time again in the General Election campaign.

    The Tory Party has a Woman Problem. We are the party of Angela Eagle. We are the party of Kerry McCarthy. And yes, we are the party of Rosie Winterton. Who in the Tory Party has ever reached such rarefied heights?

    Kerry McCarthy, the one with the police caution for electoral fraud?

    Whereas we are the party of Margaret Thatcher.

    How many times have Labour elected a woman as leader?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The USA has the world's best universities and its worst school system of any rich country.

    Quite. The best US universities are world beating. Yet America is mediocre in PISA rankings and is dropping fast.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    The most ominous stat is that Shanghai students (supposedly the best in China) are fully two years ahead, educationally, compared to those of Massachusetts (supposedly the best in the USA).

    Whatever way you look at it, the weathervanes for America point towards significant relative decline. Gentle, but inexorable.
    Asian-Americans out perform Asians, European-Americans outperform Europeans and African-Americans outperform Africans on the PISA test. That is if we are comparing apples with apples and pears with pears.

    Still I find it funny that America is today the evil empire, aggressively pushing permanent revolution, minoritarianism, political correctness and corrosive social values. A Trotskyite wet dream, whereas the rapidly advancing formerly Communist countries of China and Russia stand up for the values of 50s America. As John O'Sullivan remarked 'for much of the world's left, the U.S.today is utopia'. As such there can be only one loser and that is America, a fate every conservative looks forward to.
    Ah, if only we could look back to the days when gays could be lynched and Jews weren't allowed into the country club.

    America is undoubtedly a better society today than China and Russia. That's why Chinese and Russian people desperately try to migrate into the United States, but Americans, on the whole, don't do it the other way.
    True believer.
    Says the guy that believes in Jewish conspiracies.
    Now wait a second. Look up the word 'conspiracy'. There are therefore all kinds of conspiracies, including Jewish (or Israeli) ones.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I think this is intellectually mediocre drivel. Sorry. America spread English values, and did it with the virility of an undisputed superpower merely because England gave her all defeating Nazism.

    The world never had a more "sweet, just boyish master" than the English, as Santayana said.

    Anyway now America is on the wane and China's in charge. Or soon will be, Let's see what they do. I recommend we all master chopsticks, and spitting.

    It's too late at night to get into detail on such a big subject, but that is a breathtaking piece of historical revisionism.

    Two cases of just blanket disagreement without engagement on the actual arguments.
    Well it's a big subject. As I said, your historical revisionism is so breathtaking that it's hard to know where to start, but here are four places you could start thinking about:

    1) Are you comparing the twentieth century with, say, the eighteenth?

    2) Have you forgotten that it was the Royal Navy which enforced the ban on slave-trading across the oceans (and yes, I know that Britain was heavily involved in the trade before that)?

    3) Writing off Vietnam, to take one example, as a 'mistake' is absurdly generous to the US.

    4) I'm not sure your rewrite of the history of the independence of India is quite right, but, even if it were, the rushed withdrawal from India was an unmitigated humanitarian disaster, on a par with the disaster of Iraq, only on a larger scale.
    1) I'm comparing it to the period immediately before - the late 19th and early 20th. Britain was still trying to acquire new colonies into the 20th Century. Churchill still wanted to hang on to India after the Second World War.

    2) Of course, I haven't forgotten. It was one of the greatest things this country has ever done, and an enormous credit to it. That still does not change the fact that the British Empire kept hundreds of millions in poverty. The whole picture must be considered.

    3) I'm not writing off anything. Vietnam was a tragic event in terms of the war crimes the US was involved with there. But when considering the overall picture, we must consider the scale of how many people were affected.

    4) Yes, it was. But the British handled things pretty well given the circumstances that the Hindus and the Muslims were at each other's throats and that Britain herself was bankrupt. What else could Britain have done? You don't believe a united India was possible surely?
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    I guess being bigoted against Russians and Muslims is fine and dandy just as a guy losing his job for merely opposing gay marriage is now progress.

    And no of course I don't for a minute believe Israel and it's supporters in the West had any role in promoting the war against Iraq, that would be crazy.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited June 2014
    Sean_F said:


    As hegemonies go, America's has been pretty benign.

    Sure, if you think 20-30 million deaths since 1945 in their wars or proxy-wars is "benign".
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Twitter
    Chris Deerin ‏@chrisdeerin 2m
    Their new constitution didn't last a day pic.twitter.com/43hHtBq4K7
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RodCrosby said:

    Sean_F said:


    As hegemonies go, America's has been pretty benign.

    Sure, if you think 20-30 million deaths since 1945 in their wars or proxy-wars is "benign".
    It's better than most hegemonies in history.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Do hope that they can persuade Sir David Jason to return as the voice of Dangermouse.

    Daily Telegraph - Danger Mouse to make a comeback to children's television
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    Socrates said:


    4) Yes, it was. But the British handled things pretty well given the circumstances that the Hindus and the Muslims were at each other's throats and that Britain herself was bankrupt. What else could Britain have done? You don't believe a united India was possible surely?

    If Nehru and Jinnah had agreed to a federation why not? It was on the table as late as 1946.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    AndyJS said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Sean_F said:


    As hegemonies go, America's has been pretty benign.

    Sure, if you think 20-30 million deaths since 1945 in their wars or proxy-wars is "benign".
    It's better than most hegemonies in history.
    We will have to wait and see, I suppose...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RodCrosby said:

    AndyJS said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Sean_F said:


    As hegemonies go, America's has been pretty benign.

    Sure, if you think 20-30 million deaths since 1945 in their wars or proxy-wars is "benign".
    It's better than most hegemonies in history.
    We will have to wait and see, I suppose...
    Yes. It isn't saying much, I know.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited June 2014
    If the release of the Chilcott report in imminent, then the timing couldn't be worse for both Blair or the current Labour party.

    The Mole in The First Post - Is Blair mad – or just defending himself ahead of Chilcot report?


  • oldnatoldnat Posts: 136
    fitalass said:

    If the release of the Chilcott report in imminent, then the timing couldn't be worse for both Blair or the current Labour party.

    The Mole in The First Post - Is Blair mad – or just defending himself ahead of Chilcot report?

    Thanks for the link. I'm not sure that the Chilcot report will be good for the Tories who voted for the Iraq war either.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    USA score with 4 minutes to go.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    USA! USA! USA!

    :)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Possession: 60% Ghana, 40% USA.
This discussion has been closed.