Mr. Corporeal, worth mentioning we've had number of successful Islamic terrorist incidents, and a higher number of foiled or failed incidents, in recent years, compared to a relatively low number of Christian suicide bombers.
I'd be quite happy to see the state only fund secular schools, but when it comes to indoctrination and radicalisation in the UK, Christianity and Islam are on different planets. [And no, I'm not saying it's tremendously widespread in Islam. It only takes a few madmen to cause carnage].
Over the last 50 years or so, "Christian" terrorists have killed more Brits than Muslim terrorists.
Mr. Eagles, whilst I applaud your reference to Arausio I'm not sure it works as the Roman commanders hated one another and acted independently, whereas I think Clegg and Alexander will both be trying their damnedest to win as many votes as possible for the yellows.
"Whitehall sources revealed that behind the scenes the Education Secretary has been pressing David Cameron for months to widen the Government’s definition of Muslim “extremism”."
“And [Gove] thinks anybody who holds conservative Muslim views is a bit of an extremist."
Conservative Muslim views like believing hands should be chopped off for theft, that women should receive a fraction of the inheritance of men, that democracy is decadent, that women should cover their entire bodies in front of male strangers, that adulterers should be stoned to death, that Saudi Arabia is a society to be praised?
Depends what you define by Conservative.
Conservative christianity goes to killing 'witches' etc.
I know plenty of people that identify as conservative Christians. None would support the killing of witches. Meanwhile the views I ascribe to conservative Muslims are frequently expressed and many are actually the law of a number of countries around the world.
We can be objective about this, if you like. Can we say that, of any population, the third most conservative count as "conservative, the third most progressive count as "progressive", and the third in the middle count as "mainstream"? I'm happy to dig up some opinion polls showing conservative views that are held by around a third of Muslims, and we can judge how extreme they are?
Witch-hunts/killings are both existent and part of the legal systems in a number of African countries.
There are conservative Christians and then there are conservative Christians.
Can't say I'm aware of any polling on it though.
I suspect cultural background is more influential on such matters than religion per se (noting religion as part of cultural background etc).
Which African countries?
Your last sentence is all just trying to sweep the issue under the carpet based on semantics. We all know what conservative Islam is. Whether you define conservative Islam as being a religious thing, or a cultural thing, it doesn't particularly matter. What matters is whether the extreme (but non-terrorist) positions associated with it are being combatted by the UK government. Gove is the rare minister to actually take a proper stand on this, while Theresa May and others are afraid to ruffle feathers.
In some quarters, the Conservatives still suffer from a poor brand image. Mention Maggie in some parts of Scotland and the North. It's why some were so ready to believe Plebgate.
Bad reputations persist for some time once the brand is trashed. It may be unfair but, as they say in my local rugby club:-
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
Mr. Eagles, whilst I applaud your reference to Arausio I'm not sure it works as the Roman commanders hated one another and acted independently, whereas I think Clegg and Alexander will both be trying their damnedest to win as many votes as possible for the yellows.
I was going to go with a Battle of Thermoplyae reference with Clegg as Leonidas, but Boris has the exclusive rights to Spartan metaphors today
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
They said they were doing it because the Catholics were being oppressed.
I quite like this article from the Torygraph. Conservative future has descended on Newark and their behaviour would be enough to get Lord Rennard salivating:
I hope they enjoy themselves in the accomodation central office provides them with, but remember it's the bankers who are paying for it.
If there really is enough assortative mating, we may end up with a new subspecies of hominid through sympatric speciation ... one wonders what new forms of genitalia will develop to lock in assortative mating (metaphorically, I hasten to add, though in some species it is literally true). Which probably means I need to go and make myself lunch if my mind is wandering that much from my work ...
Mr Dancer, on the subject of names I'm rather glad Puritan first names are largely no longer seen. Imagine being called Humiliation, or Job-raked-out-of-the-Ashes or think of the unfortunate If-Christ-had-not-died-for-thee-thou-hadst-been-damned Barebones who generally called himself Nicholas Barbon.
ECB cuts interest rate to 0.15% in a desperate attempt to avoid a deflationary depression.
I remember a number of people on here mocking me for being excessive gloomy on the Eurozone three years ago, as they claimed the Eurozone crisis was over. Can we stop and pause to consider who was right, who was wrong, and who needs to adjust their views based on a mugging by reality?
Reminds me of the awful American ones like Chastity. That's just asking for trouble.
Mr. Socrates, indeed. Still, we all know what the prescription from Brussels will be: more power for the EU, more integration, more insanity, and then more pain.
I quite like this article from the Torygraph. Conservative future has descended on Newark and their behaviour would be enough to get Lord Rennard salivating:
I hope they enjoy themselves in the accomodation central office provides them with, but remember it's the bankers who are paying for it.
Political youth organisations are (and I say this as part of one) strange and eccentric places.
As long as your 'antics' are not published on face-book or other social media corporeal, your political future is safe(ish) - we won't spill the beans, honest. ;-)
Oh dear
I live in fear of someone bringing up me tipping Brown to continue as leader until September 2010 mere hours before he stepped down (thought he'd continue as a placeholder for a few months)
If that's the worst there is, then you'll be pretty safe - Just look at the howlers Nick Robinson makes, and he's still Aunty's political editor ffs.
I'd have two caveats. Firstly the current polling is under the spotlight of the referendum. I wouldn't much trust Scottish GE polling till its over. Secondly don't underestimate Danny's pork barrel politics. He's bringing home the bacon. The Scottish skiing industry has never had it so good.
Not many constituencies with a ski lift or the Cairngorm Mountain Railway ...
Mr. Corporeal, worth mentioning we've had number of successful Islamic terrorist incidents, and a higher number of foiled or failed incidents, in recent years, compared to a relatively low number of Christian suicide bombers.
I'd be quite happy to see the state only fund secular schools, but when it comes to indoctrination and radicalisation in the UK, Christianity and Islam are on different planets. [And no, I'm not saying it's tremendously widespread in Islam. It only takes a few madmen to cause carnage].
Over the last 50 years or so, "Christian" terrorists have killed more Brits than Muslim terrorists.
The IRA did not claim to be a Christian organisation, nor were they claimed to be acting for religious reasons, or doing things in the name of their God.
"Whitehall sources revealed that behind the scenes the Education Secretary has been pressing David Cameron for months to widen the Government’s definition of Muslim “extremism”."
“And [Gove] thinks anybody who holds conservative Muslim views is a bit of an extremist."
Conservative Muslim views like believing hands should be chopped off for theft, that women should receive a fraction of the inheritance of men, that democracy is decadent, that women should cover their entire bodies in front of male strangers, that adulterers should be stoned to death, that Saudi Arabia is a society to be praised?
Depends what you define by Conservative.
Conservative christianity goes to killing 'witches' etc.
I know plenty of people that identify as conservative Christians. None would support the killing of witches. Meanwhile the views I ascribe to conservative Muslims are frequently expressed and many are actually the law of a number of countries around the world.
We can be objective about this, if you like. Can we say that, of any population, the third most conservative count as "conservative, the third most progressive count as "progressive", and the third in the middle count as "mainstream"? I'm happy to dig up some opinion polls showing conservative views that are held by around a third of Muslims, and we can judge how extreme they are?
Witch-hunts/killings are both existent and part of the legal systems in a number of African countries.
There are conservative Christians and then there are conservative Christians.
Can't say I'm aware of any polling on it though.
I suspect cultural background is more influential on such matters than religion per se (noting religion as part of cultural background etc).
Then cultural background ought to be a critical factor in immigration policy.
Say people from very remote, rural areas in the most backward countries of the world for example.
Mr Dancer, yes they are real. There are others that are as bad if not worse. Imagine being called No-merit or Abstinence or Helpless. The puritans had weird ideas with regards to names.
In some quarters, the Conservatives still suffer from a poor brand image. Mention Maggie in some parts of Scotland and the North. It's why some were so ready to believe Plebgate.
Bad reputations persist for some time once the brand is trashed. It may be unfair but, as they say in my local rugby club:-
You shag one sheep ...
I completely understand why that is the case at the macro level and for those uninterested in politics.
But you are clearly interested enough and aware enough to spend time on Britain's premier political webgossipsite.
So why are you unwilling to think about the pros and cons of voting Tory, but just dismiss the idea for "tribal reasons"?
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
They said they were doing it because the Catholics were being oppressed.
Mr. Corporeal, worth mentioning we've had number of successful Islamic terrorist incidents, and a higher number of foiled or failed incidents, in recent years, compared to a relatively low number of Christian suicide bombers.
I'd be quite happy to see the state only fund secular schools, but when it comes to indoctrination and radicalisation in the UK, Christianity and Islam are on different planets. [And no, I'm not saying it's tremendously widespread in Islam. It only takes a few madmen to cause carnage].
Mr Dancer, speaking in purely a UK context that rather depends on your assessment of how big the role of Catholicism vs Protestantism was in the Northern Ireland situation.
I would suspect that there is more of an issue with Islamic extremism in the UK than Christian fundamentalism, but I'd rather see general school secularisation and I also think that targeted secularisation at muslim areas is going to drive people towards extremism rather than away from it (sense of persecution etc).
I think people tend to close their eyes to a lot of things that go on under the banner of Christianity in Africa etc,
Reminds me of the awful American ones like Chastity. That's just asking for trouble.
Mr. Socrates, indeed. Still, we all know what the prescription from Brussels will be: more power for the EU, more integration, more insanity, and then more pain.
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
Signed first editions of the Bible ?!?
Presumably purchased in bulk from D Trotter and Son of New York, Paris and Peckham.
My pitch when asked by someone about who to vote for, I suggested Labour, on the grounds that both them and the Tories were going to "rodger" you, but that the Labour Party would at least offer some vaseline (KY jelly available at extra cost) Somehow I can't see this as an election slogan in the near future
I wasn't aware is was possible to have a negative interest rate?
Does that mean savers actually LOSE money?
If they deposit technically yes, but you'd have to be a moron. It's a way of keeping money in the system. It's been proposed many times, it's used a couple of times but as to the effectiveness I suspect the jury is out.
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
They said they were doing it because the Catholics were being oppressed.
You didn't actually believe them, did you?
*shakes head, disappointedly*
There was certainly a religious element to the conflict, probably not the defining one but significant.
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
I don't believe any Home Secretary has done either. If you're speaking about Michael Gove, then he hasn't pushed for secularisation of Muslim schools - merely to root out extremists from them. Unfortunately, the usual suspects react to this by painting it as an attack on Islam. This is why people are so worried about investigating things like child rape or electoral fraud in Muslim areas. Because of people reacting like you are right now.
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
Signed first editions of the Bible ?!?
Presumably purchased in bulk from D Trotter and Son of New York, Paris and Peckham.
Jack, any comment on the hedonistic reports coming out of Newark?
Apparently Young Conservatives have turned Newark into a hot bed of boozing, curry-eating and sex!
I wasn't aware is was possible to have a negative interest rate?
Does that mean savers actually LOSE money?
It's not retail savers - this is the rate that the ECB will pay *banks* who leave money on overnight deposit.
The objective is to encourage banks to lend out to riskier propositions rather than to operate in the thoughtful and cautious way that the best run banks do.
I quite like this article from the Torygraph. Conservative future has descended on Newark and their behaviour would be enough to get Lord Rennard salivating:
I hope they enjoy themselves in the accomodation central office provides them with, but remember it's the bankers who are paying for it.
Political youth organisations are (and I say this as part of one) strange and eccentric places.
As long as your 'antics' are not published on face-book or other social media corporeal, your political future is safe(ish) - we won't spill the beans, honest. ;-)
Oh dear
I live in fear of someone bringing up me tipping Brown to continue as leader until September 2010 mere hours before he stepped down (thought he'd continue as a placeholder for a few months)
It's going to be amusing when we hit the generation where most of us our politicians' youthful indiscretions will be open to us.
I think it'll be a few years of tabloid craziness and then we'll settle down to a more humane view of them.
Not as bad as the fellow who in early 2010 announced one morning he had stuck a couple hundred quid on James Purnell as next Labour leader after Brown.
By lunchtime Purnell announced he was standing down as an MP.
At least I had my Hazel Blears as next Labour leader bet to keep me happy.
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
They said they were doing it because the Catholics were being oppressed.
I wasn't aware is was possible to have a negative interest rate?
Does that mean savers actually LOSE money?
It's not retail savers - this is the rate that the ECB will pay *banks* who leave money on overnight deposit.
The objective is to encourage banks to lend out to riskier propositions rather than to operate in the thoughtful and cautious way that the best run banks do.
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
Signed first editions of the Bible ?!?
Presumably purchased in bulk from D Trotter and Son of New York, Paris and Peckham.
Jack, any comment on the hedonistic reports coming out of Newark?
Apparently Young Conservatives have turned Newark into a hot bed of boozing, curry-eating and sex!
Disgusting .... filthy beasts ....
Where in Newark .... out of academic interest, you understand ?!?
My pitch when asked by someone about who to vote for, I suggested Labour, on the grounds that both them and the Tories were going to "rodger" you, but that the Labour Party would at least offer some vaseline (KY jelly available at extra cost) Somehow I can't see this as an election slogan in the near future
Nah, the Tories:
Labour will "roger" you (no d, surely?). And then hold you in position, rinse and repeat.
The Tories at least offer you the opportunity to become the rogerer rather than the rogeree.
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
I don't believe any Home Secretary has done either. If you're speaking about Michael Gove, then he hasn't pushed for secularisation of Muslim schools - merely to root out extremists from them. Unfortunately, the usual suspects react to this by painting it as an attack on Islam. This is why people are so worried about investigating things like child rape or electoral fraud in Muslim areas. Because of people reacting like you are right now.
AndyJS linked to an Independent article (citing our old friend 'Whitehall Sources") saying he was pushing to secularise schools in Muslim areas.
I can't work out how on earth Labour are favourites for the seat. You can make a case for the SNP being favourites I reckon, and Danny is the incumbent.
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
They said they were doing it because the Catholics were being oppressed.
You didn't actually believe them, did you?
*shakes head, disappointedly*
There was certainly a religious element to the conflict, probably not the defining one but significant.
Not really - at one level there was a socio-cultural split (but that was Craigavon's fault - he didn't like the idea of a cohesive society).
What you are mistaking is that the PIRA tried to generate support from the Northern Catholics by claiming they were doing it for socio-economic reasons, while in reality they were just philosophically and politically committed to a united Ireland
I can't work out how on earth Labour are favourites for the seat. You can make a case for the SNP being favourites I reckon, and Danny is the incumbent.
Labour should be more like 5-1 not 5-4 I think...
I feel the same, I think both SNP and LD are value, since Labour odds are so short.
If someone invented a time machine and said it would be a good idea to go back in time and import 100,000 viking pirates I wonder how many people would think that was a good idea.
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
Signed first editions of the Bible ?!?
Presumably purchased in bulk from D Trotter and Son of New York, Paris and Peckham.
Jack, any comment on the hedonistic reports coming out of Newark?
Apparently Young Conservatives have turned Newark into a hot bed of boozing, curry-eating and sex!
Disgusting .... filthy beasts ....
Where in Newark .... out of academic interest, you understand ?!?
Unfortunately Jack I think they realised the good burghers of Newark would all have heart attacks or strokes if they saw such behaviour so they hot-footed it to the den of iniquity that is Nottingham before embarking of a night of alcohol laden, eastern flavoured debauchery.
I can't work out how on earth Labour are favourites for the seat. You can make a case for the SNP being favourites I reckon, and Danny is the incumbent.
Labour should be more like 5-1 not 5-4 I think...
I feel the same, I think both SNP and LD are value, since Labour odds are so short.
Goodo, as I've posted I've smashed into Danny and the SNP.
If someone invented a time machine and said it would be a good idea to go back in time and import 100,000 viking pirates I wonder how many people would think that was a good idea.
Mr. Eagles, whilst I applaud your reference to Arausio I'm not sure it works as the Roman commanders hated one another and acted independently, whereas I think Clegg and Alexander will both be trying their damnedest to win as many votes as possible for the yellows.
I was going to go with a Battle of Thermoplyae reference with Clegg as Leonidas, but Boris has the exclusive rights to Spartan metaphors today
Clegg is the hunchback who goes over to Juncker (Xerxes). Farage is Leonidas and UKIP are the 300! Newark is Thermopylae!
I did - it's a pretty poor article. Could have been generated by a computer programme. Did someone actually pay him for it?
Social mobility is a huge issue. That's why the education reforms that Gove is promoting have the potential to be so transformative. It is a horrific waste of human potential to allow the brightest and best kids, regardless of their social background, to languish in mediocrity.
We need to get away from the idea that everyone is born with equal talents and abilities. What we need to do is to design a system that gives everyone the best opportunity to maximise their potential.
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
They said they were doing it because the Catholics were being oppressed.
You didn't actually believe them, did you?
*shakes head, disappointedly*
There was certainly a religious element to the conflict, probably not the defining one but significant.
Not really - at one level there was a socio-cultural split (but that was Craigavon's fault - he didn't like the idea of a cohesive society).
What you are mistaking is that the PIRA tried to generate support from the Northern Catholics by claiming they were doing it for socio-economic reasons, while in reality they were just philosophically and politically committed to a united Ireland
As far as I'm aware there's no Irish Catholic equivalent of the "Caliphate".
If someone invented a time machine and said it would be a good idea to go back in time and import 100,000 viking pirates I wonder how many people would think that was a good idea.
Yeah baby!!! My favourite Hollywood productions always get binned from canned.
What do they expect me to talk about in the pub???
I do find this story about younger Tories amusing. Young people have fun, get drunk, and have sex with each other. Well I never. What an utter and complete shock.
Mr. Corporeal, worth mentioning we've had number of successful Islamic terrorist incidents, and a higher number of foiled or failed incidents, in recent years, compared to a relatively low number of Christian suicide bombers.
I'd be quite happy to see the state only fund secular schools, but when it comes to indoctrination and radicalisation in the UK, Christianity and Islam are on different planets. [And no, I'm not saying it's tremendously widespread in Islam. It only takes a few madmen to cause carnage].
Over the last 50 years or so, "Christian" terrorists have killed more Brits than Muslim terrorists.
How about in the last 10 years? And 7/7 was far deadlier than Omagh.
@Charles You are denying the underlying statistics? Who generally can manage an unpaid internship (like the ones the Tory party raffled)? Who might consider that a small favour to a member of ones remuneration board might not be acceptable?........etc,
Socrates - there's something rather ironic about Michael Gove with his dark ages manichean view of the world always looking for enemies to declare war on getting tough on Muslims who don't want to embrace western modernity. Should we challenge extremism? Yes. Is Michael Gove the person to do it? No!
Lazy stereotypes from a left-winger trying to brush the issue under the carpet. What a surprise. It's pathetic how people that claim to believe in feminism, secularism etc suddenly go limp-wristed when it comes to conservative Muslims. I guess they just vote Labour in strong enough numbers that you can ignore them?
For the record, I'm in favour of the secularisation of schools generally, or at the least state funded ones.
The Independent reported that the same Home Secretary who sent personally signed copies of the Bible out to schools is pushing for the secularisation of ones in Muslim areas...
Signed first editions of the Bible ?!?
Presumably purchased in bulk from D Trotter and Son of New York, Paris and Peckham.
Jack, any comment on the hedonistic reports coming out of Newark?
Apparently Young Conservatives have turned Newark into a hot bed of boozing, curry-eating and sex!
Disgusting .... filthy beasts ....
Where in Newark .... out of academic interest, you understand ?!?
Unfortunately Jack I think they realised the good burghers of Newark would all have heart attacks or strokes if they saw such behaviour so they hot-footed it to the den of iniquity that is Nottingham before embarking of a night of alcohol laden, eastern flavoured debauchery.
I've heard all about this rutting in Nottinghamshire before ....
Wanton sex, drunken orgies, vice of all manner and form and that was just "Peter the Punter" at the last general election lifting morale within Broxtowe Labour party ....
Mr. Corporeal, worth mentioning we've had number of successful Islamic terrorist incidents, and a higher number of foiled or failed incidents, in recent years, compared to a relatively low number of Christian suicide bombers.
I'd be quite happy to see the state only fund secular schools, but when it comes to indoctrination and radicalisation in the UK, Christianity and Islam are on different planets. [And no, I'm not saying it's tremendously widespread in Islam. It only takes a few madmen to cause carnage].
Over the last 50 years or so, "Christian" terrorists have killed more Brits than Muslim terrorists.
How about in the last 10 years? And 7/7 was far deadlier than Omagh.
Indeed, we could look at India and the anti-Sikh riots.
As far as I'm aware there's no Irish Catholic equivalent of the "Caliphate".
True. But then again de Valera did all that he could to turn Ireland into a confessional state. Just look at the constitution of 1937, many of whose provisions took decades to repeal. The popish church was held in quite extraordinary and unjustified esteem, and was all but immune from human censure. All that de Valera failed to do was to surrender Ireland as a fief of the papacy, and take an oath of homage and fealty to Pius XI.
I do find this story about younger Tories amusing. Young people have fun, get drunk, and have sex with each other. Well I never. What an utter and complete shock.
Its just jealousy Jim. We all dream on occasion that we were young free single and attractive again. All part of life's rich tapestry.
(Except for Tapestry of course who dreams of Lizard people breathing toxic plumes of methane and turning us all into slaves ruled over by David Icke.)
@Charles You are denying the underlying statistics? Who generally can manage an unpaid internship (like the ones the Tory party raffled)? Who might consider that a small favour to a member of ones remuneration board might not be acceptable?........etc,
(Politicians are even worse it seems)
I haven't checked them specifically, but I'm not surprised so happy to take them at face value. I just thought it was a bad article!
I agree there is a problem - and suggested a directional solution. Education is one of the key areas that I've asked the team at the family foundation to focus on (or more specifically ensuring that everyone has the opportunity to maximise their potential, so this includes education, recividism, transition from foster care to independence, etc.)
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
They said they were doing it because the Catholics were being oppressed.
You didn't actually believe them, did you?
*shakes head, disappointedly*
There was certainly a religious element to the conflict, probably not the defining one but significant.
Not really - at one level there was a socio-cultural split (but that was Craigavon's fault - he didn't like the idea of a cohesive society).
What you are mistaking is that the PIRA tried to generate support from the Northern Catholics by claiming they were doing it for socio-economic reasons, while in reality they were just philosophically and politically committed to a united Ireland
As far as I'm aware there's no Irish Catholic equivalent of the "Caliphate".
Eagles I always find a great irony in the Pope's title of Pontifex Maximus given the level of division most of them cause either actively or inadvertently
More equal societies seem to have better mobility, and coincidentally a better quality of life for all classes. (the reasons for the better quality are complex but apparently provable). Could this not also be added to your "todo" list?
If someone invented a time machine and said it would be a good idea to go back in time and import 100,000 viking pirates I wonder how many people would think that was a good idea.
I don't know if it's new exactly but yes almost the entirety of human history illustrates that the rate of immigration should be lower than the rate of integration.
I do find this story about younger Tories amusing. Young people have fun, get drunk, and have sex with each other. Well I never. What an utter and complete shock.
I think people are shocked (or pretending to be shocked) because they are Conservatives.
Of course, those of us that have been around the block a few times (*COUGH JackW COUGH) know that Tories are the kinkiest of the lot.
Fruitcakes! This is your captain. It is an honour to speak to you today, and I am honoured to be sailing with you on the maiden voyage of our party's most recent achievement. Once more, we play our dangerous game, a game of chess against our old adversary — The European Union. For forty years, your fathers before you and your older brothers played this game and played it well. But today the game is different. We have the advantage. It reminds me of the heady days of Euroscepticism and Lady Thatcher, when the world trembled at the sound of our EU rebates. Well, they will tremble again — at the sound of our silence. The order is: engage the Kipper drive.
Fruitcakes! The Tory Party doesn't know our full potential. They will do everything possible to test us; but they will only test their own embarrassment. We will leave the Tories behind, we will pass through the EU patrols, past their bureaucracy, and lay off their largest city, and listen to their secret Commission Debates... while we conduct cocktail parties. Then, and when we are finished, the only sound they will hear is our laughter, while we sail to Newark, where the sun is warm, and so is the... comradeship.
If someone invented a time machine and said it would be a good idea to go back in time and import 100,000 viking pirates I wonder how many people would think that was a good idea.
I don't know if it's new exactly but yes almost the entirety of human history illustrates that the rate of immigration should be lower than the rate of integration.
I haven't heard the time-traveling Europhile version of the legend before.
Eagles I always find a great irony in the Pope's title of Pontifex Maximus given the level of division most of them cause either actively or inadvertently
It is an advance from when they styled themselves dux et pontifex. That false monk Hildebrand (occasionally known as Gregory VII) so styled himself in 1071, when he proposed leading a crusade to relieve Byzantium after the battle of Manzikert. Leo IX led the papal army against Robert Guiscard at Civitate in 1053. Let us not even speak of Giuliano della Rovere, the so-called "Warrior Pope", Julius II.
Mr. Corporeal, worth mentioning we've had number of successful Islamic terrorist incidents, and a higher number of foiled or failed incidents, in recent years, compared to a relatively low number of Christian suicide bombers.
I'd be quite happy to see the state only fund secular schools, but when it comes to indoctrination and radicalisation in the UK, Christianity and Islam are on different planets. [And no, I'm not saying it's tremendously widespread in Islam. It only takes a few madmen to cause carnage].
Over the last 50 years or so, "Christian" terrorists have killed more Brits than Muslim terrorists.
How about in the last 10 years? And 7/7 was far deadlier than Omagh.
Indeed, we could look at India and the anti-Sikh riots.
Weren't we talking about Brits? Over the last 50 years or so, "Christian" terrorists have killed more Brits than Muslim terrorists
I do find this story about younger Tories amusing. Young people have fun, get drunk, and have sex with each other. Well I never. What an utter and complete shock.
Careful. Po faced Frank Booth is having palpitations.
If someone invented a time machine and said it would be a good idea to go back in time and import 100,000 viking pirates I wonder how many people would think that was a good idea.
I don't know if it's new exactly but yes almost the entirety of human history illustrates that the rate of immigration should be lower than the rate of integration.
I haven't heard the time-traveling Europhile version of the legend before.
As far as I'm aware there's no Irish Catholic equivalent of the "Caliphate".
True. But then again de Valera did all that he could to turn Ireland into a confessional state. Just look at the constitution of 1937, many of whose provisions took decades to repeal. The popish church was held in quite extraordinary and unjustified esteem, and was all but immune from human censure. All that de Valera failed to do was to surrender Ireland as a fief of the papacy, and take an oath of homage and fealty to Pius XI.
Readers will find a more balanced view here:-
'De Valera's solution was Article 44. In contemporary terms, it marked a defeat for conservative Catholics, and Pope Pius XI explicitly withheld his approval from it: Catholicism was not made the state church. Catholicism was given an undefined "special position" on the basis of being the church of the majority. This was not consistent with the stance of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, which claimed the right to legal and political influence on the basis of the claimed objective truth of its teachings rather than the size of its following. Other religions were named and recognised on a lower level. The use of the Church of Ireland's official name antagonised conservative Catholics, who saw Catholicism as being the proper and rightful "church of Ireland". The Jewish community in Ireland was also given recognition. The explicit granting of a right to exist to the Jewish faith in Ireland marked a significant difference to the legal approach to Jewish rights in other European states, though contemporary Irish society was far from free of anti-semitism. Though perceived in retrospect as a sectarian article, Article 44 was praised in 1937 by leaders of Irish Protestant churches (notably the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin) and by Jewish groups. Conservative Catholics condemned it as "liberal".' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
Thatcher still gets the blame for Glasgow's ills - though the heavy industry was in decline long before she turned up.
In fairness, that was the SNP Health Minister, not any of the academics who have studied the issue.......but then blaming Thatcher is much easier than facing up to your own responsibilities......
Thatcher still gets the blame for Glasgow's ills - though the heavy industry was in decline long before she turned up.
In fairness, that was the SNP Health Minister, not any of the academics who have studied the issue.......but then blaming Thatcher is much easier than facing up to your own responsibilities......
Comments
I've translated FMQs for you you lucky people-
Lamont nails it again.
It's not boring.
Your last sentence is all just trying to sweep the issue under the carpet based on semantics. We all know what conservative Islam is. Whether you define conservative Islam as being a religious thing, or a cultural thing, it doesn't particularly matter. What matters is whether the extreme (but non-terrorist) positions associated with it are being combatted by the UK government. Gove is the rare minister to actually take a proper stand on this, while Theresa May and others are afraid to ruffle feathers.
In some quarters, the Conservatives still suffer from a poor brand image. Mention Maggie in some parts of Scotland and the North. It's why some were so ready to believe Plebgate.
Bad reputations persist for some time once the brand is trashed. It may be unfair but, as they say in my local rugby club:-
You shag one sheep ...
I'm going to have to stick with the Bi
Good luck everyone.
The attacks in Northern Ireland (or based there but occurring elsewhere) also broke on political lines, and it was politics not religion that caused the attacks (unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, the IRA never said they were acting "in the name of the Pope and God").
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595972-how-sexual-equality-increases-gap-between-rich-and-poor-households-sex-brains-and
I remember a number of people on here mocking me for being excessive gloomy on the Eurozone three years ago, as they claimed the Eurozone crisis was over. Can we stop and pause to consider who was right, who was wrong, and who needs to adjust their views based on a mugging by reality?
You could've gone for the Teutoberg Forest, or Lake Trasimene.
Reminds me of the awful American ones like Chastity. That's just asking for trouble.
Mr. Socrates, indeed. Still, we all know what the prescription from Brussels will be: more power for the EU, more integration, more insanity, and then more pain.
If it goes the way of the Scottish parliament, the SNP will gain.
If the famed Highland incumbency comes into play it's a hold for Danny:
I reckon the value is to effectively lay Labour, this is reflected in my position on the seat
SNP +41.38
LD +25.09
LAB/CON -57.21
Right now, 6-4 may well be value on Danny. SNP prices have gone.
Say people from very remote, rural areas in the most backward countries of the world for example.
But you are clearly interested enough and aware enough to spend time on Britain's premier political webgossipsite.
So why are you unwilling to think about the pros and cons of voting Tory, but just dismiss the idea for "tribal reasons"?
Does that mean savers actually LOSE money?
*shakes head, disappointedly*
I would suspect that there is more of an issue with Islamic extremism in the UK than Christian fundamentalism, but I'd rather see general school secularisation and I also think that targeted secularisation at muslim areas is going to drive people towards extremism rather than away from it (sense of persecution etc).
I think people tend to close their eyes to a lot of things that go on under the banner of Christianity in Africa etc,
So 0% interest plus inflation is effectively negative interest rates.
edit: didn't read whole thread. this seems to be about something else.
I believe it's to encourage banks and corporate bodies to do something useful with their loot rather than leave it lying around doing bugger all.
Presumably purchased in bulk from D Trotter and Son of New York, Paris and Peckham.
I had visions of savers in the euro zone lining up to take out their money and put it under their mattresses, LOL!
My pitch when asked by someone about who to vote for, I suggested Labour, on the grounds that both them and the Tories were going to "rodger" you, but that the Labour Party would at least offer some vaseline (KY jelly available at extra cost)
Somehow I can't see this as an election slogan in the near future
Surely Clegg leading the LDs into Scotland = Quinctilius Varus. The only bit of Roman history I know.
Apparently Young Conservatives have turned Newark into a hot bed of boozing, curry-eating and sex!
The objective is to encourage banks to lend out to riskier propositions rather than to operate in the thoughtful and cautious way that the best run banks do.
By lunchtime Purnell announced he was standing down as an MP.
At least I had my Hazel Blears as next Labour leader bet to keep me happy.
Catholic priests were helping the IRA after all.
Where in Newark .... out of academic interest, you understand ?!?
Labour will "roger" you (no d, surely?). And then hold you in position, rinse and repeat.
The Tories at least offer you the opportunity to become the rogerer rather than the rogeree.
I can't work out how on earth Labour are favourites for the seat. You can make a case for the SNP being favourites I reckon, and Danny is the incumbent.
Labour should be more like 5-1 not 5-4 I think...
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/meritocracy-is-a-myth-9483779.html
(posted earlier, but you may have missed it)
What you are mistaking is that the PIRA tried to generate support from the Northern Catholics by claiming they were doing it for socio-economic reasons, while in reality they were just philosophically and politically committed to a united Ireland
However it is a decent read about what politicians we actually want.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100274922/want-to-rekindle-faith-in-politics-remember-most-mps-are-like-annette-brooks/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortigern
someone actually pay him for it?
Social mobility is a huge issue. That's why the education reforms that Gove is promoting have the potential to be so transformative. It is a horrific waste of human potential to allow the brightest and best kids, regardless of their social background, to languish in mediocrity.
We need to get away from the idea that everyone is born with equal talents and abilities. What we need to do is to design a system that gives everyone the best opportunity to maximise their potential.
What do they expect me to talk about in the pub???
Blimey
Do they even add Vat over there???
And 7/7 was far deadlier than Omagh.
You are denying the underlying statistics?
Who generally can manage an unpaid internship (like the ones the Tory party raffled)?
Who might consider that a small favour to a member of ones remuneration board might not be acceptable?........etc,
(Politicians are even worse it seems)
I've got a Credit Note on my Sales Ledger.
Whatever shall I do?
- [Rings Spain] Are you alive?
- [A] We don't know
Wanton sex, drunken orgies, vice of all manner and form and that was just "Peter the Punter" at the last general election lifting morale within Broxtowe Labour party ....
(Except for Tapestry of course who dreams of Lizard people breathing toxic plumes of methane and turning us all into slaves ruled over by David Icke.)
I agree there is a problem - and suggested a directional solution. Education is one of the key areas that I've asked the team at the family foundation to focus on (or more specifically ensuring that everyone has the opportunity to maximise their potential, so this includes education, recividism, transition from foster care to independence, etc.)
More equal societies seem to have better mobility, and coincidentally a better quality of life for all classes. (the reasons for the better quality are complex but apparently provable).
Could this not also be added to your "todo" list?
Of course, those of us that have been around the block a few times (*COUGH JackW COUGH) know that Tories are the kinkiest of the lot.
Fruitcakes! The Tory Party doesn't know our full potential. They will do everything possible to test us; but they will only test their own embarrassment. We will leave the Tories behind, we will pass through the EU patrols, past their bureaucracy, and lay off their largest city, and listen to their secret Commission Debates... while we conduct cocktail parties. Then, and when we are finished, the only sound they will hear is our laughter, while we sail to Newark, where the sun is warm, and so is the... comradeship.
A great day, Fruitcakes! We sail into history!
'De Valera's solution was Article 44. In contemporary terms, it marked a defeat for conservative Catholics, and Pope Pius XI explicitly withheld his approval from it:
Catholicism was not made the state church.
Catholicism was given an undefined "special position" on the basis of being the church of the majority. This was not consistent with the stance of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, which claimed the right to legal and political influence on the basis of the claimed objective truth of its teachings rather than the size of its following.
Other religions were named and recognised on a lower level. The use of the Church of Ireland's official name antagonised conservative Catholics, who saw Catholicism as being the proper and rightful "church of Ireland".
The Jewish community in Ireland was also given recognition. The explicit granting of a right to exist to the Jewish faith in Ireland marked a significant difference to the legal approach to Jewish rights in other European states, though contemporary Irish society was far from free of anti-semitism.
Though perceived in retrospect as a sectarian article, Article 44 was praised in 1937 by leaders of Irish Protestant churches (notably the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin) and by Jewish groups. Conservative Catholics condemned it as "liberal".'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland