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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Last Thursday’s local elections: Andy JS’s annual compilat

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    @Corporeal I don't think Labour have a chance there either though. Lets see how its repriced at the bookies.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2014

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    Any reason why they should automatically do so? TSE showed clearly yesterday voting tribalism is on the decline.

    I didn't say they would automatically do so. What I said was that comparing UKIP local election vote shares with UKIP Euro election vote shares doesn't constitute a swing.

    To attempt to estimate a swing from last year, the best measure is the National Equivalent Vote share. Of course, by definition that won't give any local breakdown.
    You think Camerton will appeal more to the voters of Thanet than Farage ? Can't see it myself.
    No but Boris Johnson would.

    Nah Boris would insult the voters and pork their wives in front of them. Best left in London where such things are the norm.
    There are no husbands left in Thanet, Mr. Brooke. The constituency is populated by widows of plasterers.

    All they want is a little attention and memory of what it is like to be plastered.

    Boris would be perfect.

    I refer you to Gogglebox Mr P, where being plastered is pretty much a way of life in Sandwich.
    Are you referring to the owners of The Salutation, the first 20th Century house in the UK to be Grade I listed by English Heritage? It is a Lutyens Queen Anne revival house built for the Farrer brothers of H.M.'s solicitors fame.

    See: http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/cho120331

    I viewed the particulars of the property which is on sale through Knight Frank for £4.5 million. Unfortunately its gardens which were open to the public were washed away in last December's tidal floods.

    Anyway during my research I did note that the property's owners, Dominic and Stephanie Parker, had recently become stars of a TV reality show.

    Hmm. Now confirmed:.http://bit.ly/1pjEpRj

    Not very classy, Mr. Brooke. I think Alan Clark's antics at his antique castle near Sandwich would be a more appropriate model for the local Tory candidate.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    BobaFett said:

    I think it would be better for all involved if well-known source shopper Isabel Oakeshott stayed out of the Uncle Matty story

    Why the more popcorn the better :D
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited May 2014
    Will Lord Oakeshott rejoin Labour? Would they want a rent-a-quote, loud-mouthed trouble maker like Lord O?

    Suppose Ed's probably desperate enough to take anybody...
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Incidentally is it correct that last night's YouGov had a sort of Crossover? I'm sure this morning I saw something on Twitter to effect that last night's YouGov gave the Tories a 1pt lead on the question re 2015GE voting intention if Ed Bland remains Labour leader.
  • No other bookie appears to be covering Danny Alexander's seat in Inverness.

    Of equal value imho is the 15/8 available for Labour to wrestle Bermondsey from the LibDems' Simon Hughes who is on offer at 4/11.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    There is growing resentment at the SNP foisting average speed cameras on the A9 travelling public when the overwhelming view of the local population is we don't want them.

    Any particular reason why?
    Most of the serious road accidents are caused by frustrated car drivers spending upwards of 30mins driving at 40mph behind several lorries on a 60mph road with single carriageway and rare bits of dual carriageway. They are meant to pull into laybys to allow others to pass but many, especially those from the Central Belt and England dont. Proposal is to put average speed cameras on the single carriageway stretches and raise lorry speed to 50mph. Will make little difference as the decent lorry drivers already drive at 50mph but with average cameras all drivers will need to stick to limit. Fewer than 20 miles of the 100 mile route between Perth and Inverness are dual carriageway and average speed cameras will limit opportunity for overtaking in the clearer single carriageway stretches. Most of us who drive that road regularly reckon 1) the number of accidents will increase due to increased frustration and 2) it is just a revenue raising project by the SNP.

    Under the SNP, the time it takes me to drive from home to Glasgow has increased on average by 30 minutes compared to when Margaret Thatcher was PM. This is due to the frequency of the limited dual carriageway stretches between coned off into single carriageway and the vastly increased volume of freight traffic on the road.
    Okay, so long story short is that some drivers on A9 today do dangerous things in an attempt to drive at 60mph when lorries mean they can only do 40-50mph safely.

    Average speed cameras will mean that there is no incentive for drivers to overtake lorries as everyone will be limited to the same 50mph.

    I'd have thought that would be safer, though I can understand that you'd rather have more sections of dual carriageway...
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Incidentally is it correct that last night's YouGov had a sort of Crossover? I'm sure this morning I saw something on Twitter to effect that last night's YouGov gave the Tories a 1pt lead on the question re 2015GE voting intention if Ed Bland remains Labour leader.

    Yes. They asked "If the parties are led by EdM, Cam, Clegg, how would you vote?" and then the same but with Cable for Clegg. In the first question the Tories led by 34/33. For the record, the LDs were on 8 in both polls.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    This might be a key reason why African and Asian migrants in France want to reach Britain:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/411888/Kick-em-out-before-they-hit-Boris-tells-PM-we-ALREADY-have-illegal-immigrant-amnesty
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.

    The problem in so much of Africa is, of course, that a corrupt elite sits on the wealth and does nothing for the millions living in poverty. That is going to have to play out first. There is one African country that is attracting a few immigrants, though. A lot of Portuguese are moving back to Angola. It's dodgy as hell, but there's money to be made.

  • When can we expect to hear the outcome of the PB/Ladbrokes' competition on the Euro elections?

    I'm waiting here with bated breath.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    Any reason why they should automatically do so? TSE showed clearly yesterday voting tribalism is on the decline.

    I didn't say they would automatically do so. What I said was that comparing UKIP local election vote shares with UKIP Euro election vote shares doesn't constitute a swing.

    To attempt to estimate a swing from last year, the best measure is the National Equivalent Vote share. Of course, by definition that won't give any local breakdown.
    You think Camerton will appeal more to the voters of Thanet than Farage ? Can't see it myself.
    No but Boris Johnson would.

    Nah Boris would insult the voters and pork their wives in front of them. Best left in London where such things are the norm.
    There are no husbands left in Thanet, Mr. Brooke. The constituency is populated by widows of plasterers.

    All they want is a little attention and memory of what it is like to be plastered.

    Boris would be perfect.

    I refer you to Gogglebox Mr P, where being plastered is pretty much a way of life in Sandwich.
    Are you referring to the owners of The Salutation, the first 20th Century house in the UK to be Grade I listed by English Heritage? It is a Lutyens Queen Anne revival house built for the Farrer brothers of H.M.'s solicitors fame.

    See: http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/cho120331

    I viewed the particulars of the property which is on sale through Knight Frank for £4.5 million. Unfortunately its gardens which were open to the public were washed away in last December's tidal floods.

    Anyway during my research I did note that the property's owners, Dominic and Stephanie Parker, had recently become stars of a TV reality show.

    Hmm. Now confirmed:.http://bit.ly/1pjEpRj

    Not very classy, Mr. Brooke. I think Alan Clark's antics at his antique castle near Sandwich would be a more appropriate model for the local Tory candidate.
    Viewing it from the inside I presume Mr P. ? It rather makes your claims of classy a bit suspect. Eton trash they get everywhere.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633635/Dozens-super-rich-swingers-masked-orgy-Gogglebox-posh-couples-3-5million-mansion-red-wine-BANNED-protect-carpets.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    When can we expect to hear the outcome of the PB/Ladbrokes' competition on the Euro elections?

    I'm waiting here with bated breath.

    Where can i find my entry for that :D ? Can't remember how I scored it tbh.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.

    The problem in so much of Africa is, of course, that a corrupt elite sits on the wealth and does nothing for the millions living in poverty. That is going to have to play out first. There is one African country that is attracting a few immigrants, though. A lot of Portuguese are moving back to Angola. It's dodgy as hell, but there's money to be made.

    There's plenty of Zimbabweans in South Africa, which causes lots of frustration to South Africa's black population. I suppose all those South African blacks are being racist.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Socrates said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.

    The problem in so much of Africa is, of course, that a corrupt elite sits on the wealth and does nothing for the millions living in poverty. That is going to have to play out first. There is one African country that is attracting a few immigrants, though. A lot of Portuguese are moving back to Angola. It's dodgy as hell, but there's money to be made.

    There's plenty of Zimbabweans in South Africa, which causes lots of frustration to South Africa's black population. I suppose all those South African blacks are being racist.

    Perhaps the ones that bang on about it incessantly and link all of South Africa's problems and troubles to it may be a touch over-focused on the issue and ever so slightly xenophobic.

  • antifrank1antifrank1 Posts: 81
    Belatedly, thanks to TSE for the link on the last thread.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Socrates said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.

    The problem in so much of Africa is, of course, that a corrupt elite sits on the wealth and does nothing for the millions living in poverty. That is going to have to play out first. There is one African country that is attracting a few immigrants, though. A lot of Portuguese are moving back to Angola. It's dodgy as hell, but there's money to be made.

    There's plenty of Zimbabweans in South Africa, which causes lots of frustration to South Africa's black population. I suppose all those South African blacks are being racist.

    Perhaps the ones that bang on about it incessantly and link all of South Africa's problems and troubles to it may be a touch over-focused on the issue and ever so slightly xenophobic.

    New Labour's open borders policy is the number one source of xenophobia.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    Any reason why they should automatically do so? TSE showed clearly yesterday voting tribalism is on the decline.

    I didn't say they would automatically do so. What I said was that comparing UKIP local election vote shares with UKIP Euro election vote shares doesn't constitute a swing.

    To attempt to estimate a swing from last year, the best measure is the National Equivalent Vote share. Of course, by definition that won't give any local breakdown.
    You think Camerton will appeal more to the voters of Thanet than Farage ? Can't see it myself.
    No but Boris Johnson would.

    Nah Boris would insult the voters and pork their wives in front of them. Best left in London where such things are the norm.
    There are no husbands left in Thanet, Mr. Brooke. The constituency is populated by widows of plasterers.

    All they want is a little attention and memory of what it is like to be plastered.

    Boris would be perfect.

    I refer you to Gogglebox Mr P, where being plastered is pretty much a way of life in Sandwich.
    Are you referring to the owners of The Salutation, the first 20th Century house in the UK to be Grade I listed by English Heritage? It is a Lutyens Queen Anne revival house built for the Farrer brothers of H.M.'s solicitors fame.

    See: http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/cho120331

    I viewed the particulars of the property which is on sale through Knight Frank for £4.5 million. Unfortunately its gardens which were open to the public were washed away in last December's tidal floods.

    Anyway during my research I did note that the property's owners, Dominic and Stephanie Parker, had recently become stars of a TV reality show.

    Hmm. Now confirmed:.http://bit.ly/1pjEpRj

    Not very classy, Mr. Brooke. I think Alan Clark's antics at his antique castle near Sandwich would be a more appropriate model for the local Tory candidate.
    Viewing it from the inside I presume Mr P. ? It rather makes your claims of classy a bit suspect. Eton trash they get everywhere.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633635/Dozens-super-rich-swingers-masked-orgy-Gogglebox-posh-couples-3-5million-mansion-red-wine-BANNED-protect-carpets.html
    "Killing Kittens", Mr. Brooke?

    Not my style at all. If you want a first hand account from a PBer maybe LIAMT or tim could provide?

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.

    The problem in so much of Africa is, of course, that a corrupt elite sits on the wealth and does nothing for the millions living in poverty. That is going to have to play out first. There is one African country that is attracting a few immigrants, though. A lot of Portuguese are moving back to Angola. It's dodgy as hell, but there's money to be made.

    There's plenty of Zimbabweans in South Africa, which causes lots of frustration to South Africa's black population. I suppose all those South African blacks are being racist.

    Perhaps the ones that bang on about it incessantly and link all of South Africa's problems and troubles to it may be a touch over-focused on the issue and ever so slightly xenophobic.

    They probably don't link all of South Africa's problems and troubles to it, and likely talk about all sorts of other problems too. But the country probably has a chunk of people that don't want to address the issue and thus accuse them of such as a way of burying the issue.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Conservative %: 23.02 (Under 0.91%)
    Labour %: 24.39 (Under 1.01%)
    Lib Dem %: 6.16 (Under 0.71%)
    UKIP %: 27.80 (Over 0.31%)
    Green %: 6.97 (Under 0.9%)
    An Independence
    from Europe %: 1.69 (Over 0.20%)


    Was my entry.

    Or at least what I said I'd put in the thread.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Oh goodie. Yet another 'debate' on bloody immigration from the usual suspects who talk about almost nothing else.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    MrJones said:

    Socrates said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.

    The problem in so much of Africa is, of course, that a corrupt elite sits on the wealth and does nothing for the millions living in poverty. That is going to have to play out first. There is one African country that is attracting a few immigrants, though. A lot of Portuguese are moving back to Angola. It's dodgy as hell, but there's money to be made.

    There's plenty of Zimbabweans in South Africa, which causes lots of frustration to South Africa's black population. I suppose all those South African blacks are being racist.

    Perhaps the ones that bang on about it incessantly and link all of South Africa's problems and troubles to it may be a touch over-focused on the issue and ever so slightly xenophobic.

    New Labour's open borders policy is the number one source of xenophobia.

    Yes, I know. It never used to be like that. How we all miss the days of No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    MrJones said:

    Socrates said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.

    The problem in so much of Africa is, of course, that a corrupt elite sits on the wealth and does nothing for the millions living in poverty. That is going to have to play out first. There is one African country that is attracting a few immigrants, though. A lot of Portuguese are moving back to Angola. It's dodgy as hell, but there's money to be made.

    There's plenty of Zimbabweans in South Africa, which causes lots of frustration to South Africa's black population. I suppose all those South African blacks are being racist.

    Perhaps the ones that bang on about it incessantly and link all of South Africa's problems and troubles to it may be a touch over-focused on the issue and ever so slightly xenophobic.

    New Labour's open borders policy is the number one source of xenophobia.

    Yes, I know. It never used to be like that. How we all miss the days of No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs.

    What about cats ?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2014
    @SouthamObserver‌

    The signs you're talking about haven't really existed for more than a century. I don't see how relevant that is.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pulpstar said:

    Conservative %: 23.02 (Under 0.91%)
    Labour %: 24.39 (Under 1.01%)
    Lib Dem %: 6.16 (Under 0.71%)
    UKIP %: 27.80 (Over 0.31%)
    Green %: 6.97 (Under 0.9%)
    An Independence
    from Europe %: 1.69 (Over 0.20%)


    Was my entry.

    Or at least what I said I'd put in the thread.

    You can do better than Rod Crosby !
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited May 2014

    When can we expect to hear the outcome of the PB/Ladbrokes' competition on the Euro elections?

    I'm waiting here with bated breath.

    I don't know about the individual winners, but by party affiliation the leaderboard (aggregate error) is: NB big edit, I had UKIP & Other transposed:
    Con     3.43%
    Other 3.65%
    OVERALL 3.97%
    Green 4.51%
    LDem 5.36%
    Labour 5.73%
    UKIP 7.15%
    Data is at: https://user.nojam.com/pid/50/live/averagebygeparty.php

    Yours truly scored 5.78%, mostly due to underestimating the Tories and overestimating the Greens. Wisdom of crowds and all that.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    Any reason why they should automatically do so? TSE showed clearly yesterday voting tribalism is on the decline.

    I didn't say they would automatically do so. What I said was that comparing UKIP local election vote shares with UKIP Euro election vote shares doesn't constitute a swing.

    To attempt to estimate a swing from last year, the best measure is the National Equivalent Vote share. Of course, by definition that won't give any local breakdown.
    You think Camerton will appeal more to the voters of Thanet than Farage ? Can't see it myself.
    No but Boris Johnson would.

    Nah Boris would insult the voters and pork their wives in front of them. Best left in London where such things are the norm.
    There are no husbands left in Thanet, Mr. Brooke. The constituency is populated by widows of plasterers.

    All they want is a little attention and memory of what it is like to be plastered.

    Boris would be perfect.

    I refer you to Gogglebox Mr P, where being plastered is pretty much a way of life in Sandwich.
    Are you referring to the owners of The Salutation, the first 20th Century house in the UK to ugh Knight Frank for £4.5 million. Unfortunately its gardens which were open to the public were washed away in last December's tidal floods.

    Anyway during my research I did note that the property's owners, Dominic and Stephanie Parker, had recently become stars of a TV reality show.

    Hmm. Now confirmed:.http://bit.ly/1pjEpRj

    Not very classy, Mr. Brooke. I think Alan Clark's antics at his antique castle near Sandwich would be a more appropriate model for the local Tory candidate.
    Viewing it from the inside I presume Mr P. ? It rather makes your claims of classy a bit suspect. Eton trash they get everywhere.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633635/Dozens-super-rich-swingers-masked-orgy-Gogglebox-posh-couples-3-5million-mansion-red-wine-BANNED-protect-carpets.html
    "Killing Kittens", Mr. Brooke?

    Not my style at all. If you want a first hand account from a PBer maybe LIAMT or tim could provide?

    I think the less we know of your "style" the better Mr Pole. This is still a family blog, leave such things for that swamp of humanity known as Nighthawks.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Back from two-weeks of solitude (sans the missus) in the Med. Anyone know how Ian Bell did today...?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    BobaFett said:

    Oh goodie. Yet another 'debate' on bloody immigration from the usual suspects who talk about almost nothing else.

    Cheer up BaF and let's have a thread on Ed or Osborne, who's more rubbish ?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Back from two-weeks of solitude (sans the missus) in the Med. Anyone know how Ian Bell did today...?

    Not sure, but the oil bet is looking good for me still ;)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Socrates said:

    @SouthamObserver‌

    The signs you're talking about haven't really existed for more than a century. I don't see how relevant that is.

    I remember reading an interesting item on the BBC about the Bristol Bus Boycott of 1963. The Bristol Bus Company, and the union that represented its workers, operated a colour bar, in terms of employment, and suffered a boycott from passengers, when this became generally known. Even 51 years ago, the attitude of the Company and the union was considered absurd and unjust by most of the locals.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited May 2014

    MrJones said:


    New Labour's open borders policy is the number one source of xenophobia.

    Yes, I know. It never used to be like that. How we all miss the days of No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs.

    Someone linked some research earlier about how the percentage of people who would admit to racial prejudice had gone up after going down for a long time.

    They said it was because of 9/11 whereas personally I think it's because of New Labour opening the borders.

    "No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs."

    The interesting thing about that - which literally true or not has some basis in reality - is why it's not "no French, no Germans, no Dutch."

    Perhaps it's because when countries have similar median incomes most immigration is swaps between young professionals living maybe 4 to a house in the leafier areas whereas when there's a major difference in median income you get 12+ young unskilled men living in houses in the cheapest areas?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.
    And, despite that many here oppose Overseas Aid. Usually, they are the same people. A small investment there has a much larger multiplier effect than here and may stave off another few hundred more emigrants.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Back from two-weeks of solitude (sans the missus) in the Med. Anyone know how Ian Bell did today...?

    The BBC says he scored 41no, and teams won by 10 wickets.

    Most likely a misprint.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited May 2014
    AveryLP said:

    Not my style at all. If you want a first hand account from a PBer maybe LIAMT or tim could provide?

    Avery, that is a particularly egregious libel. I have never killed a kitten or any other verminous cat for that matter. What I strongly believe is that (1) there should be a poll tax on vermin as a result of the associated negative externalities, and (2) if a man confronts vermin, whether feline of otherwise, on his own property, he should have a right to dispose of it in whatever manner he sees fit, and that the owner of the vermin must liable for the cost of the said disposal.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    At the cost of upward unemployment, top talent departing in droves, and a stagnating economy that will hamstring the French nation for a decade. Top job.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    GIN1138 said:

    Will Lord Oakeshott rejoin Labour? Would they want a rent-a-quote, loud-mouthed trouble maker like Lord O?

    Suppose Ed's probably desperate enough to take anybody...

    Not quite but his cash would come in very handy.How about a £1 million donation to Labour as a parting gift to his previous party?

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    surbiton said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.
    And, despite that many here oppose Overseas Aid. Usually, they are the same people. A small investment there has a much larger multiplier effect than here and may stave off another few hundred more emigrants.
    I oppose the mindless overseas aid our government claims is effective.

    It's trade that's lifting Africa out of poverty and the Chinese are providing the trade.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Neil said:


    Incidentally I wouldn't bet on Danny Alexander losing his seat regardless of what any poll might say.

    That's done it. Danny's toast.
    :)
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    MrJones said:

    "No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs."

    The interesting thing about that - which literally true or not has some basis in reality - is why it's not "no French, no Germans, no Dutch."

    Perhaps it's because when countries have similar median incomes most immigration is swaps between young professionals living maybe 4 to a house in the leafier areas whereas when there's a major difference in median income you get 12+ young unskilled men living in houses in the cheapest areas?

    I think it is because all of those places are neighbours of long standing with an established culture we quite like / identify with, and to which they all generally intend to return.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Anorak said:

    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    At the cost of upward unemployment, top talent departing in droves, and a stagnating economy that will hamstring the French nation for a decade. Top job.
    French unemployment total hits new record high - intensifying pressure on President Hollande http://t.co/J0QulOm4rT
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited May 2014
    Fluffy. Sri Lanka collapsed like the Carthiginians at Zama.

    67 all out. England got there with Ten wickets to spare and Bell scored 41.

    Means I can go home and write a thread on Oakeshott which features a reference to an awesome 80s track.
  • antifrank1antifrank1 Posts: 81

    Fluffy. Sri Lanka collapsed like the Carthiginians at Zama.

    67 all out. England got there with Ten wickets to spare and Bell scored 41.

    Means I can go home and write a thread on Oakeshott which features a reference to an awesome 80s track.

    Something about Together In Electoral Dreams?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited May 2014
    BobaFett said:

    Oh goodie. Yet another 'debate' on bloody immigration from the usual suspects who talk about almost nothing else.

    Cheer up Bob.

    Maybe the taxpayer could subsidise the purchase of that fine house in Sandwich advertised below for you, and then the pleasures of whining about commuting time and the locals would fill your days with sunshine.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Fluffy. Sri Lanka collapsed like the Carthiginians at Zama.

    67 all out. England got there with Ten wickets to spare and Bell scored 41.

    Means I can go home and write a thread on Oakeshott which features a reference to an awesome 80s track.

    Something about Together In Electoral Dreams?
    For those Lib Dems holding out for a hero to save them from electoral oblivion, there appears to be no one larger than life.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    MrJones said:

    "No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs."

    The interesting thing about that - which literally true or not has some basis in reality - is why it's not "no French, no Germans, no Dutch."

    Perhaps it's because when countries have similar median incomes most immigration is swaps between young professionals living maybe 4 to a house in the leafier areas whereas when there's a major difference in median income you get 12+ young unskilled men living in houses in the cheapest areas?

    I think it is because all of those places are neighbours of long standing with an established culture we quite like / identify with, and to which they all generally intend to return.
    I think it had more to do with ethnic prejudice than anything else, although in the Irish case it'd vary somewhat by era.
  • antifrank1antifrank1 Posts: 81
    Or perhaps you'll reference the Paul Hardcastle smash, which hints at the number of seats that Lord Oakeshott apparently expects the Lib Dems to retain.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    corporeal said:

    MrJones said:

    "No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs."

    The interesting thing about that - which literally true or not has some basis in reality - is why it's not "no French, no Germans, no Dutch."

    Perhaps it's because when countries have similar median incomes most immigration is swaps between young professionals living maybe 4 to a house in the leafier areas whereas when there's a major difference in median income you get 12+ young unskilled men living in houses in the cheapest areas?

    I think it is because all of those places are neighbours of long standing with an established culture we quite like / identify with, and to which they all generally intend to return.
    I think it had more to do with ethnic prejudice than anything else, although in the Irish case it'd vary somewhat by era.
    Easy to test at least in terms of current prejudices if someone, the BBC say, could go look in the cheapest areas for houses full of 12+ young men doing unskilled work (legally or illegally) and see if the proportions from different nationalities match the level of prejudice towards those nationalities.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    TGOHF said:

    Anorak said:

    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    At the cost of upward unemployment, top talent departing in droves, and a stagnating economy that will hamstring the French nation for a decade. Top job.
    French unemployment total hits new record high - intensifying pressure on President Hollande http://t.co/J0QulOm4rT
    Ed doesn't say much about Francois genius these days.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    surbiton said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.
    And, despite that many here oppose Overseas Aid. Usually, they are the same people. A small investment there has a much larger multiplier effect than here and may stave off another few hundred more emigrants.
    I oppose the mindless overseas aid our government claims is effective.

    It's trade that's lifting Africa out of poverty and the Chinese are providing the trade.
    Not true at all. Look at Zambia, where poverty has actually increased, despite a very close trading relationship with China. The Chinese are basically in the business of paying off the corrupt elite to extract their resources, and don't give a damn about the rest of the population. Trade alone doesn't pull you out of poverty - you also need decent institutions that represent the masses. That's why Ghana and Botswana have done well and Zambia has not.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    MrJones said:

    "No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs."

    The interesting thing about that - which literally true or not has some basis in reality - is why it's not "no French, no Germans, no Dutch."

    Perhaps it's because when countries have similar median incomes most immigration is swaps between young professionals living maybe 4 to a house in the leafier areas whereas when there's a major difference in median income you get 12+ young unskilled men living in houses in the cheapest areas?

    I think it is because all of those places are neighbours of long standing with an established culture we quite like / identify with, and to which they all generally intend to return.
    I think it had more to do with ethnic prejudice than anything else, although in the Irish case it'd vary somewhat by era.
    Must have been a bad time to be a Black, Irish Dog
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928

    Fluffy. Sri Lanka collapsed like the Carthiginians at Zama.

    67 all out. England got there with Ten wickets to spare and Bell scored 41.

    Means I can go home and write a thread on Oakeshott which features a reference to an awesome 80s track.

    That's the problem with cricket. Your team has a big win yet it feels a bit unsatisfying.

    Awesome 80s track....

    Don't leave me this way (by Vince Cable)?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    @SouthamObserver‌

    The signs you're talking about haven't really existed for more than a century. I don't see how relevant that is.

    I remember reading an interesting item on the BBC about the Bristol Bus Boycott of 1963. The Bristol Bus Company, and the union that represented its workers, operated a colour bar, in terms of employment, and suffered a boycott from passengers, when this became generally known. Even 51 years ago, the attitude of the Company and the union was considered absurd and unjust by most of the locals.

    Cultural memory is a strange thing. Irish-Americans often have grandparents who told them about the No Irish signs there, despite the complete lack of historical evidence for them in the US. They were basically a 19th Century British thing that are out of living memory.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2014
    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    Surby

    There are many negative economic impacts which derive from France's failure to raise sufficient revenue by increasing tax rates.

    GDP as the top level economic metric is better than most for showing the damage done.

    Just compare France's post tax rise growth rates with those of the UK to get the picture:
    ==========================================
    FRANCE vs. UK
    ------------------------------------------
    GDP Growth
    Expenditure method
    Quarter on Previous Quarter
    Percentage Growth
    Source: OECD Database, 28 May 2014
    ------------------------------------------
    ----------2013--------- 2014
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1
    UK 0.36 0.76 0.84 0.68 0.81
    France 0.38 0.24 -0.10 0.24 -0.39
    ==========================================
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited May 2014
    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.
    And, despite that many here oppose Overseas Aid. Usually, they are the same people. A small investment there has a much larger multiplier effect than here and may stave off another few hundred more emigrants.
    I oppose the mindless overseas aid our government claims is effective.

    It's trade that's lifting Africa out of poverty and the Chinese are providing the trade.
    Not true at all. Look at Zambia, where poverty has actually increased, despite a very close trading relationship with China. The Chinese are basically in the business of paying off the corrupt elite to extract their resources, and don't give a damn about the rest of the population. Trade alone doesn't pull you out of poverty - you also need decent institutions that represent the masses. That's why Ghana and Botswana have done well and Zambia has not.
    Sure institutions are part of it. That's why we've thrown billions at Africa for decades and the only beneficiaries have been Mercedes dealers. But if we have now moved on to helping Africa via trade and trade lifting the place out of poverty then why keep pissing subsidies up the wall ? maybe the advantage the Chinese have is they don't have trhe colonial guilt crap and ask people to work and work brings dignity with it.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    AveryLP said:

    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    Surby

    There are many negative economic impacts which derive from France's failure to raise sufficient revenue by increasing tax rates.

    GDP as the top level economic metric is better than most for showing the damage done.

    Just compare France's post tax rise growth rates with those of the UK to get the picture:
    ==========================================
    FRANCE vs. UK
    ------------------------------------------
    GDP Growth
    Expenditure method
    Quarter on Previous Quarter
    Percentage Growth
    Source: OECD Database, 28 May 2014
    ------------------------------------------
    ----------2013--------- 2014
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1
    UK 0.36 0.76 0.84 0.68 0.81
    France 0.38 0.24 -0.10 0.24 -0.39
    ==========================================
    would you have those figures from 2008 so we can admire what a great job George has done ?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    Charles said:



    Absolutely bullsh1t. And arrogant bullsh1t to make it worse.

    Sustainable development is at the very heart of conservatism. Carefully husbanding resources, investing selectively, maximising their long term productivity as part of a vibrant ecosystem is the key: whether you are talking about environment or business.

    To give an example, a few years before they sold their farm my parents replanted a wood. They knew that they, and we, would never live to see it grow up (they hoped their grandchildren might). *That* is sustainable development: not making pensioners who are struggling to live choose between heat and food.

    FPT

    @Charles‌, I know it's a popular view of some rural folk but planting a few trees does not a long term commitment to the environment make. Especially as many of the trees are planted solely for the benefit of providing cover to pheasants.

    By sustainable development, I mean managing the environment in a way that provides us with food whilst allowing other species to live, if not thrive. The tale of land management since the war has been one of failure in this respect. We have lost 95% of wildflower meadows. Our birds of arable farmland have declined on a massive scale; tree sparrow, corn bunting, starling, turtle dove all totally down the pan to name a few. Bees in big trouble. Why? Because the countryside is now dominated by sterile monocultures that provide none of the year round resources these animals need to survive. A sustainable approach to managing the countryside would provide resources for the species with which we share the planet.

    A few enlightened land managers recognise the issue and attempt to farm in an environmentally friendly way. It can be done, but requires a proportion of land to be farmed for wildlife, not just abandoned, but farmed to provide the resources wildlife needs. But most adhere to the idiotic food security nonsense propagated by the NFU. If food security is such an issue, why do we now seem to be growing solar panels across much of the SW, and why is the farm down the road from me growing mainly OSR for biofuel. All underpinned by the subsidy that we all provide by CAP. I resent my taxes being poured into the pockets of people who are using it to support fundamentally uneconomic land management practice, but I would happily see it used to support agri-environmental management that genuinely provides stewardship of the countryside. Your comments about vibrant ecosystems and sustainable development being at the heart of countryside management are frankly risible to anyone with a real understanding of the environmental holocaust our countryside has suffered since the war. It's the arrogance of those that think the only people who know and understand the countryside are farmers and land managers that is the real arrogance here.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    That's why we've thrown billions at Africa for decades and the only beneficiaries have been Mercedes dealers.

    The CAP means we are effectively subsidising poverty in Africa to the tune of many billions.

    If the CAP was abolished food prices would fall, African prosperity would rise and perhaps we wouldn't need to pay so much in overseas aid.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    taffys said:

    That's why we've thrown billions at Africa for decades and the only beneficiaries have been Mercedes dealers.

    The CAP means we are effectively subsidising poverty in Africa to the tune of many billions.

    If the CAP was abolished food prices would fall, African prosperity would rise and perhaps we wouldn't need to pay so much in overseas aid.

    Yes, spot on.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    AveryLP said:

    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    Surby

    There are many negative economic impacts which derive from France's failure to raise sufficient revenue by increasing tax rates.

    GDP as the top level economic metric is better than most for showing the damage done.

    Just compare France's post tax rise growth rates with those of the UK to get the picture:
    ==========================================
    FRANCE vs. UK
    ------------------------------------------
    GDP Growth
    Expenditure method
    Quarter on Previous Quarter
    Percentage Growth
    Source: OECD Database, 28 May 2014
    ------------------------------------------
    ----------2013--------- 2014
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1
    UK 0.36 0.76 0.84 0.68 0.81
    France 0.38 0.24 -0.10 0.24 -0.39
    ==========================================
    Avery,

    Why are you so shy ? Let us also see the growth rates from mid 2010 onwards ? I know you can "yellow box" it.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    @SouthamObserver‌

    The signs you're talking about haven't really existed for more than a century. I don't see how relevant that is.

    I remember reading an interesting item on the BBC about the Bristol Bus Boycott of 1963. The Bristol Bus Company, and the union that represented its workers, operated a colour bar, in terms of employment, and suffered a boycott from passengers, when this became generally known. Even 51 years ago, the attitude of the Company and the union was considered absurd and unjust by most of the locals.

    Cultural memory is a strange thing. Irish-Americans often have grandparents who told them about the No Irish signs there, despite the complete lack of historical evidence for them in the US. They were basically a 19th Century British thing that are out of living memory.
    They were definitely displayed in Boston, Mass.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Gerry Sutcliffe (Labour, Bradford South) to retire in 2015. Born in 1953, elected in 1994, majority 12.2%

    Last week in Bradford South wards Lab 41.3% UKIP 31.9% Con 13.6%


  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    @SouthamObserver‌

    The signs you're talking about haven't really existed for more than a century. I don't see how relevant that is.

    I remember reading an interesting item on the BBC about the Bristol Bus Boycott of 1963. The Bristol Bus Company, and the union that represented its workers, operated a colour bar, in terms of employment, and suffered a boycott from passengers, when this became generally known. Even 51 years ago, the attitude of the Company and the union was considered absurd and unjust by most of the locals.

    Cultural memory is a strange thing. Irish-Americans often have grandparents who told them about the No Irish signs there, despite the complete lack of historical evidence for them in the US. They were basically a 19th Century British thing that are out of living memory.
    They were definitely displayed in Boston, Mass.
    Could you provide some evidence, please?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Why are so many African and Asian migrants so keen to come to Britain when they risk arrest and already have access to the entire Schengen area?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27599827

    Language?

    It takes a few months to learn a foreign language if you're immersed.

    I suspect it's mainly down to the fact that our welfare state isn't based on contributions. And that we're a soft touch in deporting people.
    (1) The UK is well-known and respected globally
    (2) There is a rose-tinted view it is a land of milk and money (particularly London)
    (3) There are representatives of all nationalities already living here (particularly in London)
    (4) It is remarkably tolerant, the legal system is fair and human rights are strong
    (5) Crime is low and there is a demand for low-skilled labour
    (6) We speak English
    (7) We have a mild climate
    (8) Citizens are looked after (welfare state)
    (9) We have had an amnesty in the past
    (10) It is harder to deport someone from an island

    France is a terrible place to be an immigrant. Rampant racism, nasty banlieu ghettos, very hard to get a job and corruption/organised crime. Spain and Italy aren't much better.

    If I were a 3rd world immigrant, I'd head for Germany, Sweden or Britain. Britain would be first on my list.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    surbiton said:

    AveryLP said:

    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    Surby

    There are many negative economic impacts which derive from France's failure to raise sufficient revenue by increasing tax rates.

    GDP as the top level economic metric is better than most for showing the damage done.

    Just compare France's post tax rise growth rates with those of the UK to get the picture:
    ==========================================
    FRANCE vs. UK
    ------------------------------------------
    GDP Growth
    Expenditure method
    Quarter on Previous Quarter
    Percentage Growth
    Source: OECD Database, 28 May 2014
    ------------------------------------------
    ----------2013--------- 2014
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1
    UK 0.36 0.76 0.84 0.68 0.81
    France 0.38 0.24 -0.10 0.24 -0.39
    ==========================================
    Avery,

    Why are you so shy ? Let us also see the growth rates from mid 2010 onwards ? I know you can "yellow box" it.
    I am not "shy", Surby,

    I am contemporary, up-to-date and forward looking.

    It is why I am a Tory.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    AveryLP said:

    surbiton said:

    AveryLP said:

    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    Surby

    There are many negative economic impacts which derive from France's failure to raise sufficient revenue by increasing tax rates.

    GDP as the top level economic metric is better than most for showing the damage done.

    Just compare France's post tax rise growth rates with those of the UK to get the picture:
    ==========================================
    FRANCE vs. UK
    ------------------------------------------
    GDP Growth
    Expenditure method
    Quarter on Previous Quarter
    Percentage Growth
    Source: OECD Database, 28 May 2014
    ------------------------------------------
    ----------2013--------- 2014
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1
    UK 0.36 0.76 0.84 0.68 0.81
    France 0.38 0.24 -0.10 0.24 -0.39
    ==========================================
    Avery,

    Why are you so shy ? Let us also see the growth rates from mid 2010 onwards ? I know you can "yellow box" it.
    I am not "shy", Surby,

    I am contemporary, up-to-date and forward looking.

    It is why I am a Tory.
    tut tut Avery.

    Tories cherish our illustrious past and should be proud to put it on display.

    Or is this one of those items where an offical apology is due ?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    Not my style at all. If you want a first hand account from a PBer maybe LIAMT or tim could provide?

    Avery, that is a particularly egregious libel. I have never killed a kitten or any other verminous cat for that matter. What I strongly believe is that (1) there should be a poll tax on vermin as a result of the associated negative externalities, and (2) if a man confronts vermin, whether feline of otherwise, on his own property, he should have a right to dispose of it in whatever manner he sees fit, and that the owner of the vermin must liable for the cost of the said disposal.
    Reads very much like legalese small print, M'Lud.

    A professional indemnity clause perhaps.

    antifrank would be proud of your efforts.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is that Africa might just be on the point of joining the world economy rather than being the perennial basket case. If this is so then migration pressure will start to ease and it's more likely intra-continental migration will become a bigger factor than extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.
    And, despite that many here oppose Overseas Aid. Usually, they are the same people. A small investment there has a much larger multiplier effect than here and may stave off another few hundred more emigrants.
    I oppose the mindless overseas aid our government claims is effective.

    It's trade that's lifting Africa out of poverty and the Chinese are providing the trade.
    Not true at all. Look at Zambia, where poverty has actually increased, despite a very close trading relationship with China. The Chinese are basically in the business of paying off the corrupt elite to extract their resources, and don't give a damn about the rest of the population. Trade alone doesn't pull you out of poverty - you also need decent institutions that represent the masses. That's why Ghana and Botswana have done well and Zambia has not.
    Sure institutions are part of it. That's why we've thrown billions at Africa for decades and the only beneficiaries have been Mercedes dealers. But if we have now moved on to helping Africa via trade and trade lifting the place out of poverty then why keep pissing subsidies up the wall ? maybe the advantage the Chinese have is they don't have trhe colonial guilt crap and ask people to work and work brings dignity with it.
    "That's why we've thrown billions at Africa for decades and the only beneficiaries have been Mercedes dealers"

    Your argument rests on this claim. What evidence do you have for it? I can show you tens of millions lifted out of poverty over the last decade, surging literacy rates and diseases almost eliminated. It would be great to see your facts though.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Why are so many African and Asian migrants so keen to come to Britain when they risk arrest and already have access to the entire Schengen area?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27599827

    Language?

    It takes a few months to learn a foreign language if you're immersed.

    I suspect it's mainly down to the fact that our welfare state isn't based on contributions. And that we're a soft touch in deporting people.
    (1) The UK is well-known and respected globally
    (2) There is a rose-tinted view it is a land of milk and money (particularly London)
    (3) There are representatives of all nationalities already living here (particularly in London)
    (4) It is remarkably tolerant, the legal system is fair and human rights are strong
    (5) Crime is low and there is a demand for low-skilled labour
    (6) We speak English
    (7) We have a mild climate
    (8) Citizens are looked after (welfare state)
    (9) We have had an amnesty in the past
    (10) It is harder to deport someone from an island

    France is a terrible place to be an immigrant. Rampant racism, nasty banlieu ghettos, very hard to get a job and corruption/organised crime. Spain and Italy aren't much better.

    If I were a 3rd world immigrant, I'd head for Germany, Sweden or Britain. Britain would be first on my list.

    If they're in France, they can easily get to Germany as the Schengen zone does not have border controls. Why risk everything hopping on a lorry to the UK, which rapidly increases the chance of getting caught.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    The right wing loons are in their element again...
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    "One nation" is truly hitting home... don't read the following if you don't like naughty words..
    Actually I'll edit the offending word....


    Ed Miliband‏@Ed_Miliband·1 min
    Today I saw a brilliant One Nation Labour Party offering real change for Newark. Will you join them this weekend? https://www.facebook.com/events/624264700974981/?ref=22
    Collapse Reply


    VendettaBeretta‏@VendettaBeretta·1m
    @Ed_Miliband F*ck off beaker

    William‏@willbungay·1m
    @Ed_Miliband F*ck off Beaker
    Expand Reply

    Susie ‏@Susie1270·1m
    @Ed_Miliband f*ck off beaker


    CHWIS‏@whitesweed·1m
    @Ed_Miliband f*ck off beaker


    Steve‏@bullcrapmonger·43s
    @Ed_Miliband f*ck off beaker


  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Mike's tip for next L/D leader Norman Lamb expresses his devotion to Clegg.He could be a "safety first" candidate if it all continues to go tits up for his party.Best price 8-1.

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/it_would_be_self_destructive_to_change_lib_dem_leader_ahead_of_election_norfolk_mps_firmly_behind_nick_clegg_1_3619176
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Another "cover up" or blatant lies?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27476643
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited May 2014
    Those French unemployment figures are dire:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/28/france-economy-unemployment-idUSL6N0OE4PF20140528

    And Hollande has managed to mislay €15bn in tax revenues, whilst presiding over a 77% decline in direct foreign investmnet in 2013 (that is not a typo: seventy-seven percent):

    http://www.thelocal.fr/20140129/investors-flee-france-in-2013-report-says

    We'll have an opportunity in 2015 to switch to the same economic strategy.
  • TGOHF said:

    Anorak said:

    surbiton said:

    Anorak said:

    I'm sure someone's linked to this already, but here is the result of Hollande's super-taxes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27602312

    The Court of Auditors said receipts from all three taxes amounted to an extra 16bn euros in 2013.

    That was a little more than half the government's forecast of 30bn euros of extra tax income.

    The Court of Auditors, which oversees the government's accounts, said the Elysee Palace's forecasts of tax revenue in 2013 were so wildly inaccurate that they cast doubt on its forecasts for this year.

    Still EUR 16bn more than it otherwise would have been.
    At the cost of upward unemployment, top talent departing in droves, and a stagnating economy that will hamstring the French nation for a decade. Top job.
    French unemployment total hits new record high - intensifying pressure on President Hollande http://t.co/J0QulOm4rT
    3.36m unemployed. Leftie economist Danny Blanchflower got the right forecast for the wrong country....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    @Alanbrooke - It is absolutely horrific. There are hundreds dying and if they make it over their lives are pretty miserable by our standards. The African blokes who pound the streets and beaches of the Med cities selling knock-off tat and constantly looking over their shoulders for the police must live on only a pittance. Yet it is still so much better than what they have left behind.

    The question is how long it will go on for ? One of the few bright sparks of the last decade is han extra-continental. But a long way to go unfortunately.
    And, despite that many here oppose Overseas Aid. Usually, they are the same people. A small investment there has a much larger multiplier effect than here and may stave off another few hundred more emigrants.
    I oppose the mindless overseas aid our government claims is effective.

    It's trade that's lifting Africa out of poverty and the Chinese are providing the trade.
    Not true at all. Look at Zambia, where poverty has actually increased, despite a very close tswana have done well and Zambia has not.
    Sure institutions are part of it. That's why we've thrown billions at Africa for decades and the ial guilt crap and ask people to work and work brings dignity with it.
    "That's why we've thrown billions at Africa for decades and the only beneficiaries have been Mercedes dealers"

    Your argument rests on this claim. What evidence do you have for it? I can show you tens of millions lifted out of poverty over the last decade, surging literacy rates and diseases almost eliminated. It would be great to see your facts though.
    No my argument rests on the comparison between Asia which has made staggering progress in lifting itself out of poverty and Africa which has stagnated in the post colonial period. Africa's history since the 1960s has been one of missed opportunity and however the West has tried to engage with the continent it has not been adequate or efficient. If you look at the original post i stated that a glimpse of progress has only started in thge last decade. That's got more to do with countries slowly getting their acts and intitutions together rather than aid budgets.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    Plenty of lodgings, B&Bs, hotels, and other self-catering accommodation advertise still as 'No Dogs'.

    Up until the middle of last century (perhaps even later, in some areas of the UK) there were several significant poor Irish immigrant communities. Some of the men had a reputation for heavy drinking and alcohol fuelled violence. When tinged with traditional antipathy to the Irish, together with sectarian anti-catholicism, that was enough for xenophobia to take root.

    This is ancient history now, and rightly so. However, you often see today property owners trying to protect their properties and reputations from another group: stag-do's and hen-do's.

    These also have a bad reputation for heavy drinking and bad behaviour - although, sometimes unfairly so - so you will see "No dogs, no stag-do's/no hen-do's" fairly regularly.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Smarmeron said:

    Another "cover up" or blatant lies?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27476643

    Labours deputy leader in the Lords has backed it up

    Philip Hunt ‏@LordPhilofBrum 11m

    Good to see Tim Boyes, head of Queensbridge School, Birmingham on BBC News re trojan horse issues. He alerted Govt to this some years ago
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited May 2014

    "One nation" is truly hitting home... don't read the following if you don't like naughty words..
    Actually I'll edit the offending word....



    'One Nation' sounds suspiciously like 'Big Society'.

    Why is there no mocking and ridicule from the usual suspects on this website?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher

    I don't mock the idea of "The Big Society" I just find it insane for people to preach "socialism" in local government, and privatization and "free markets" everywhere else.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2014
    @Alanbrooke

    tut tut Avery.

    Tories cherish our illustrious past and should be proud to put it on display.

    Or is this one of those items where an offical apology is due ?


    No apology due, Mr. Brooke.

    The stats dump I did goes back to Q1 2012, so I will include those for completeness sake. The story is that both the UK and France had a poor 2012 but growth in the Olympics quarter meant that overall the UK won a minor medal whereas France was unplaced.

    See here:
    ==========================================================
    FRANCE vs. UK
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    GDP Growth
    Expenditure method
    Quarter on Previous Quarter
    Percentage Growth
    Source: OECD Database, 28 May 2014
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    --------2012-------- --------2013-------- 2014
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1
    UK 0.01 -0.39 0.77 -0.21 0.36 0.76 0.84 0.68 0.81
    France 0.63 -0.57 -0.11 -0.08 0.38 0.24 -0.10 0.24 -0.39
    ===============================================================
    As to 2010-2011, I have just read the stats (to one decimal place) off the OECD table. They don't show any particular advantage to either country over the period. But this is not surprising. It was before the wrecking effect of Hollande's policies became apparent and before the Midas touch of St. George worked its miracle.
    ======================================================
    --------2010-------- --------2011--------
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4
    UK 0.5 1.0 0.4 -0.2 0.5 0.1 0.6 -0.1
    France 0.4 0.6 0.6 0.5 1.1 -0.1 0.2 0.2
    ======================================================
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Why are so many African and Asian migrants so keen to come to Britain when they risk arrest and already have access to the entire Schengen area?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27599827

    Language?

    It takes a few months to learn a foreign language if you're immersed.

    I suspect it's mainly down to the fact that our welfare state isn't based on contributions. And that we're a soft touch in deporting people.
    (1) The UK is well-known and respected globally
    (2) There is a rose-tinted view it is a land of milk and money (particularly London)
    (3) There are representatives of all nationalities already living here (particularly in London)
    (4) It is remarkably tolerant, the legal system is fair and human rights are strong
    (5) Crime is low and there is a demand for low-skilled labour
    (6) We speak English
    (7) We have a mild climate
    (8) Citizens are looked after (welfare state)
    (9) We have had an amnesty in the past
    (10) It is harder to deport someone from an island

    France is a terrible place to be an immigrant. Rampant racism, nasty banlieu ghettos, very hard to get a job and corruption/organised crime. Spain and Italy aren't much better.

    If I were a 3rd world immigrant, I'd head for Germany, Sweden or Britain. Britain would be first on my list.

    If they're in France, they can easily get to Germany as the Schengen zone does not have border controls. Why risk everything hopping on a lorry to the UK, which rapidly increases the chance of getting caught.
    Much easier to get a job in the UK, to disappear into an existing immigrant community and to know you won't be chased/persecuted. The UK is more tolerant, and this is well-known.

    Germany is very tolerant IMHO. But it still has some nasty neo-nazi gangs in parts in the poorer east, plus getting a job is harder and it's harder to blend in.

    I still think it's one of the top EU three, though. It has a strong economy, plenty of scope for low-end, low-skilled jobs, plus it's advanced and law-abiding.

    But would I prefer the UK as a sub-saharan immigrant? Absolutely.

    PS. The point that Southam makes about African semi-legal/illegal immigrants hawking tat on Spanish beaches is interesting. I feel sorry for them, but I found it extremely irritating when I was visiting the Costa de Sol for a wedding a few years ago. I could entirely see that happening in Bournemouth and Brighton if we ever adopted an open-borders policy, or even just joined Schengen.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    AndyJS said:
    I didnt realise UKIP won the popular vote in Havering.. despite not fielding a full list of candidates too

    Seems that the various Residents Associations are Cons in disguise though doesnt it?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322


    No my argument rests on the comparison between Asia which has made staggering progress in lifting itself out of poverty and Africa which has stagnated in the post colonial period. Africa's history since the 1960s has been one of missed opportunity and however the West has tried to engage with the continent it has not been adequate or efficient. If you look at the original post i stated that a glimpse of progress has only started in thge last decade. That's got more to do with countries slowly getting their acts and intitutions together rather than aid budgets.

    That uptick is highly correlated with international aid being focused on development. Before then it was mainly about giving them money no questions asked to keep them in the communist or capitalist bloc. So the 1950s-1980s comparison makes very little sense, while the 1990s-2000s period where international aid was put into practice has seen huge returns.

    Much of the international aid has focused on institution-building and civic society creation directly. A great deal more has gone into improving access to education, often by addressing health problems that stop children attending schools, which also increases participatory democracy. This stuff isn't all a coincidence.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher

    I don't mock the idea of "The Big Society" I just find it insane for people to preach "socialism" in local government, and privatization and "free markets" everywhere else.

    Not sure TBS is about socialism. It's a figleaf for local government to withdraw from service provision in the vain hope that volunteers will pick up the responsibility. In effect, charity. Unfortunately, the baby boomer generation which has the time and resources to contribute hasn't really risen to the challenge.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    isam said:

    AndyJS said:
    I didnt realise UKIP won the popular vote in Havering.. despite not fielding a full list of candidates too

    Seems that the various Residents Associations are Cons in disguise though doesnt it?
    Yes they are mostly Tories in general elections I think.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    "One nation" is truly hitting home... don't read the following if you don't like naughty words..
    Actually I'll edit the offending word....



    'One Nation' sounds suspiciously like 'Big Society'.

    Why is there no mocking and ridicule from the usual suspects on this website?
    Cameron's "Big Society" & Miliband's "Blue Labour" would have kept the UKIP vote down significantly IMO had they not been abandoned
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    edited May 2014
    I'm just about to start 'Revolt on the Right' about the rise of Ukip. Anyone read it?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Another "cover up" or blatant lies?

    Will it matter, when the dailies get hold of it?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Socrates said:


    No my argument rests on the comparison between Asia which has made staggering progress in lifting itself out of poverty and Africa which has stagnated in the post colonial period. Africa's history since the 1960s has been one of missed opportunity and however the West has tried to engage with the continent it has not been adequate or efficient. If you look at the original post i stated that a glimpse of progress has only started in thge last decade. That's got more to do with countries slowly getting their acts and intitutions together rather than aid budgets.

    That uptick is highly correlated with international aid being focused on development. Before then it was mainly about giving them money no questions asked to keep them in the communist or capitalist bloc. So the 1950s-1980s comparison makes very little sense, while the 1990s-2000s period where international aid was put into practice has seen huge returns.

    Much of the international aid has focused on institution-building and civic society creation directly. A great deal more has gone into improving access to education, often by addressing health problems that stop children attending schools, which also increases participatory democracy. This stuff isn't all a coincidence.
    Whereas I'd say it is. Aid budgets aren't causing some African coutries to have growth rates of 6-7%. Trade and a change in insitutions are.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @taffys

    As they seldom let facts get in the way of a "good" headline, probably not.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    AveryLP said:

    @Alanbrooke

    tut tut Avery.

    Tories cherish our illustrious past and should be proud to put it on display.

    Or is this one of those items where an offical apology is due ?


    No apology due, Mr. Brooke.

    The stats dump I did goes back to Q1 2012, so I will include those for completeness sake. The story is that both the UK and France had a poor 2012 but growth in the Olympics quarter meant that overall the UK won a minor medal whereas France was unplaced.

    See here:

    ==========================================================
    FRANCE vs. UK
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    GDP Growth
    Expenditure method
    Quarter on Previous Quarter
    Percentage Growth
    Source: OECD Database, 28 May 2014
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    --------2012-------- --------2013-------- 2014
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1
    UK 0.01 -0.39 0.77 -0.21 0.36 0.76 0.84 0.68 0.81
    France 0.63 -0.57 -0.11 -0.08 0.38 0.24 -0.10 0.24 -0.39
    ===============================================================
    As to 2010-2011, I have just read the stats (to one decimal place) off the OECD table. They don't show any particular advantage to either country over the period. But this is not surprising. It was before the wrecking effect of Hollande's policies became apparent and before the Midas touch of St. George worked its miracle.
    ======================================================
    --------2010-------- --------2011--------
    Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4
    UK 0.5 1.0 0.4 -0.2 0.5 0.1 0.6 -0.1
    France 0.4 0.6 0.6 0.5 1.1 -0.1 0.2 0.2
    ======================================================
    more leger de main Mr Pole.

    Could it be that you are reluctant to show us the figures from 2008 because the UK still hasn't recovered peak output where as France has ? Could it be that George's genius for houseprice inflation still hasn't overtaken flabby Francois' reverse Midas touch ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Afternoon all, can someone please give me a link to this LibDem poll everyone has been talking about for 2 days.

    Incidentally I wouldn't bet on Danny Alexander losing his seat regardless of what any poll might say. He is incredibly popular locally and very high profile/hard working. There is growing resentment at the SNP foisting average speed cameras on the A9 travelling public when the overwhelming view of the local population is we don't want them. Danny is leading the fight.

    Easterross, He could not lead a conga, deserves to be toast , and has more faces than the town clock.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE 2015 General Election Prediction Countdown :

    14 hours 15 minutes 16 seconds
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    isam said:
    Thurrock nailed on for GE2015 then :P ?
This discussion has been closed.