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  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Financier said:

    Seven pages of EdM's health plan are laid out in the Mail.

    "He wants ‘daily physical activity’ with ‘an ambition to get half the population physically active by 2025.’

    The document adds: ‘We are currently looking at the best definition of physically active for this purpose’.

    His get fit plan includes a lottery fund to ‘finance the construction of skateboard parks, BMX tracks, netball and basketball courts. All school pupils will be taught to swim and ride a bike safely.’ Labour will aim to ensure all children do a minimum of two hours of PE a week." Where that will be done is not explained.

    He will "introduce a tougher plan for the protection of playing fields" - so will he buy back those that Labour sold off for development and initiate a wholesale demolition program?

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2619655/Labours-nanny-state-plan-drinkers-smokers-unhealthy-eaters-sparks-revolt-party-Red-Ed-says-FORCE-fit.html#ixzz30jhVOrVF

    What's his plan to address the excess lard in parliament? Will Mr Watson and Mr Clarke be forced to swim laps every day? Be barred from the Westminster tuck shop?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    SeanT said:

    Gday from Fremantle, WA.

    It is amazing how blase we have all become, about the significance of this potential UKIP breakthrough.

    If they do win the Euro elex it will be the first time a new party has won a nationwide UK election since the Labour party finally triumphed in 1929.

    In 1994 UKIP came eighth, got no seats (of course) and only beat the Natural Law party by 50,000 votes.

    http://tinyurl.com/m89bvrm

    It would also be the first time since 1906 that a party other than Conservative or Labour came first in a national election.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457
    TOPPING said:

    @JJ @Charles

    would it fly to point out how much the railways cost, the "true" cost of train travel and then to point out the susbsidy?

    I mean we need to stop short of a marginal private cost vs marginal social cost page of equations but the critical question is to what degree the taxpayer should subsidise train passengers and what social benefits are generated.

    Or will it just be tribal politics in the end?

    Yep, that's a good question, and it's why I put 'subsidise more' on my post.

    Some railway lines, like the north of Scotland lines or most of Wales, will never make a profit. But they definitely fulfil a social cause (although the mid-Wales line only survived Beeching because it passed through several Labour marginal constituencies).

    The last few governments of all stripes have decided that increasing rail usage is a social good. If this means subsidising the railways (as has happened virtually continuously since nationalisation), then so be it.

    It reduces pressure on the roads, meaning less congestion and fewer new road schemes are needed. It gives another option to those without cars. It provides the lifeblood for major cities, where commuting is vital.

    But it comes at a cost. The Serpell report in the 1980s envisioned a massive cut in the railways down to its profitable core. It was a step to far for the Thatcher government, who realised it was politically unacceptable and actually started allowing the railways to invest again.

    If we need a debate about this, so be it. But any government trying to do a Serpell would prove very unpopular, very quickly.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpell_Report
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Socrates said:

    felix said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    Oh get over yourself. It's ridiculous to expect all immigrants to have achieved the level of fluency adequate to understand nuanced political messages - not the same as saying they understand no English. English is already one of the world's most dominant languages and is likely to remain so.
    Get over yourself. If foreign nationals are incapable of understanding nuanced political messages in English, they shouldn't be voting in UK elections. The Tories are trying to beat UKIP on the back of foreign votes in a foreign language. They've clearly strayed a very long way from their values.
    If you're arguing for an educational voting qualification based on that the electorate would be tiny.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    A few stay at home mums? Only a minority of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are in the labour market:

    If this is a problem, as you seem to think it is, I don't see how getting out of Europe helps it in any way, and I don;t see how voting UKIP changes it in any way.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    A few stay at home mums? Only a minority of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are in the labour market:

    http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/census/CoDE-Employment-Census-Briefing.pdf

    The vast bulk are not working and are not looking to. And even many of those working will be doing so in their own community, in local shops and service companies etc, where they will talk to people in the language they prefer. I've certainly lived in parts of London where shop owners would speak to members of their own ethnic group at length in another language, and only mention a few words to the English people coming in.

    But, that aside, the fact they are getting new immigrants at a faster rate than the existing ones can learn English is PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. At what point does it stop? At what point do we say, hang on, we're losing a sense of social solidarity and increasing alienation because an ever increasing share struggle to communicate in English? When will the Tories, let alone the left wing parties, recognise this? And when they do, when will they take action to actually stop mass immigration? Because none of them are doing what is needed right now.
    I simply don't believe we are getting new immigrants "at a faster rate than the existing ones can learn English". If this were true, in any meaningful sense, ultimately English would die out.

    Do you believe that?
    You believe that 8% of the country in 2001 or in 1991 didn't speak English (or Welsh) as their main language?

    As for your question, no, I don't believe it will happen, because I think sooner or later we will get a government that sufficiently curbs immigration on the back of public anger.

  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805



    Carola said:

    Carola said:

    Nigel V Ed on Marr - did Ed just say that he'd leave it to broadcasters re having Farage on?

    I heard it that way,Carola.In response to Farage goading Miliband into a direct head-to-head between the 2 of them,Miliband's response was to deflect the question back to his demand that Cameron does not manage to dodge out of the GE debates in 2015 but Miliband definitely said,as an important concession to Farage,should the broadcasters
    Sky reporting it as a goer.
    Reporting what as a goer?

    Ed's comment re Farage *possibly* being in the debates.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Financier said:

    Seven pages of EdM's health plan are laid out in the Mail.

    "He wants ‘daily physical activity’ with ‘an ambition to get half the population physically active by 2025.’

    The document adds: ‘We are currently looking at the best definition of physically active for this purpose’.

    His get fit plan includes a lottery fund to ‘finance the construction of skateboard parks, BMX tracks, netball and basketball courts. All school pupils will be taught to swim and ride a bike safely.’ Labour will aim to ensure all children do a minimum of two hours of PE a week." Where that will be done is not explained.

    He will "introduce a tougher plan for the protection of playing fields" - so will he buy back those that Labour sold off for development and initiate a wholesale demolition program?

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2619655/Labours-nanny-state-plan-drinkers-smokers-unhealthy-eaters-sparks-revolt-party-Red-Ed-says-FORCE-fit.html#ixzz30jhVOrVF

    What's his plan to address the excess lard in parliament? Will Mr Watson and Mr Clarke be forced to swim laps every day? Be barred from the Westminster tuck shop?
    Sounds very North Korean to me.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    UKIP voters more likely to believe in theory of evolution than supporters of other parties... Eh?
    Why are you surprised by that?
    I'm surprised that all of the mainstream parties (including UKIP, Green etc) are not scoring almost 100% on that particular question.

    The figures Carlotta quoted were +65 for UKIP, +63 for Tories and +58 for Labour.

    That means that close to 20% of the population doesn't believe in Darwin. That's (a) surprising and (b) worrying.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    felix said:

    Socrates said:

    felix said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    Oh get over yourself. It's ridiculous to expect all immigrants to have achieved the level of fluency adequate to understand nuanced political messages - not the same as saying they understand no English. English is already one of the world's most dominant languages and is likely to remain so.
    Get over yourself. If foreign nationals are incapable of understanding nuanced political messages in English, they shouldn't be voting in UK elections. The Tories are trying to beat UKIP on the back of foreign votes in a foreign language. They've clearly strayed a very long way from their values.
    If you're arguing for an educational voting qualification based on that the electorate would be tiny.
    I was only responding to your claim for why we needed foreign language political campaigning.

    If the Tories are happy to be the party that represents foreigners than they can do so. UKIP should just make that clear to the rest of the country how that affects their views on EU membership, including child benefit to kids living in other countries, and including spending UK taxpayer money on new roads in Eastern Europe.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    sooner or later we will get a government that sufficiently curbs immigration on the back of public anger.

    immigration from places such as Bangladesh and Pakistan already is pretty limited. I completely fail to see how stopping poles and spaniards coming in helps the problems that you highlight one iota.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    Oh get over yourself. It's ridiculous to expect all immigrants to have achieved the level of fluency adequate to understand nuanced political messages - not the same as saying they understand no English. English is already one of the world's most dominant languages and is likely to remain so.
    Agreed. And in reply to the comment downthread that all immigrants must be required to learn good English, all I can say is that the proportion of Brits resident in other countries who bother to learn the local language is far smaller than the other way round. Generally immigrants to Britain do try to improve their English as part of their general effort to get on. By contrast, I knew Brits in German Switzerland who took a perverse pride in not learning German and who spent their evenings in the English-Speaking Club, watching videos of English football and drinking imported British beer, even during the spectacular local carnival season.

    It's clearly desirable for immigrants to learn a local language and have a go at mingling. But Britain is possibly the very worst-placed country in the world to be self-righteous about it.

    Just for anecdotal amusement: there's a voter in Broxtowe who believes that it should be ILLEGAL to speak a foreign language in Britain, even for tourists.

    You really despise " the Brits " don't you?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    I wouldn't be against that if it was what it showed, but it more likely shows they think people with Polish as a first language are more likely to read the leaflets if they're in Polish than if they're in English.

    Getting so good at a non-native language that you read it more comfortably than the one you were brought up reading is pretty much an impossible ask. I do most of my work in Japanese and read it pretty comfortably, but I just grok English much faster (*), and a message written in English would be more likely than a Japanese one to get into my brain during the time it takes to move the leaflet from my letterbox to the bin.

    * There are a couple of exceptions like mobile phone interfaces where I'd read Japanese faster, but they're specific to the fact that the Japanese writing system is much more efficient than the English one, meaning you can get a more expressive message into a limited space.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Looking at that ICM poll Labour are below the crucial 35%. An outlier or the shape of things to come ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    UKIP voters more likely to believe in theory of evolution than supporters of other parties... Eh?
    You tories are all crackpots who believe in the divine right of kings, and bigwigs. Fess up!
    Nah, my family were proud to oppose the Stuart attempts to turn back the clock.

    We were always at the cutting edge of reform in this country.

    We largely retired from active politics when the Whigs insisted on founding the Bank of England - we warned that it would inevitably lead to excessive government spending, inflation and devaluation...
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "That means that close to 20% of the population doesn't believe in Darwin. That's (a) surprising and (b) worrying."

    Suprising? Not really. Such is the state of our education system I should be very surprised if at least 20% of the population had never heard of Darwin and his theory. Ignorance and not religion is probably the cause of that statistic.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Yet their kids will learn it, so stop kvetching

    I often marvel at how UKIP supporters moan about one facet of immigration or other they are against, and then bring up Islam/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis/Mosques as an example of this problem.

    AS if getting out of Europe would change any of this one jot!!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    UKIP voters more likely to believe in theory of evolution than supporters of other parties... Eh?
    Why are you surprised by that?
    I'm surprised that all of the mainstream parties (including UKIP, Green etc) are not scoring almost 100% on that particular question.

    The figures Carlotta quoted were +65 for UKIP, +63 for Tories and +58 for Labour.

    That means that close to 20% of the population doesn't believe in Darwin. That's (a) surprising and (b) worrying.
    Oh don't be surprised Charles (and I type that with a resigned sigh of disappointment at the world). My experience has been that there are a depressingly large number of people who not only do not understand evolution (which can be excused as a result of poor education) but who do understand it and explicitly reject it. Strangely the numbers rejecting evolution seem to be higher than the numbers claiming they are actively (as opposed to passively) religious so I have absolutely no idea what drives their beliefs.

    Serious and non leading question. Does anyone know what the position of the various non Christian faiths is on evolution?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    You are missing the point as much as me. "Andy's PA couldn't afford to live in London." is the biggest problem, followed by the salary she's getting. The cost of the journey is a poor third.

    The potential solutions:
    1) Make housing costs in London (indeed all cities) cheaper.
    2) Pay her more.
    3) Artificially depress rail ticket prices even more, at cost to the general taxpayer.

    What you are calling for is rail ticket prices to be subsidised even more by the taxpayer, just so companies can keep down wages. That's fair enough, but at least be honest about it.

    (As an aside, I fail to see how Miliband's latest wheeze will depress ticket prices in the medium or long term)

    We need to make housing costs cheaper buy building more and building smarter

    It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons.

    In my view, railways do have positive externalities, so there is a case for government subsidy. But all I was pointing out was that the current position is unsustainable. When an individual who is paid the median wage can't afford to live closer than 60 minutes from her workplace and can barely afford travel to work there is a problem that needs addressing.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    I wouldn't be against that if it was what it showed, but it more likely shows they think people with Polish as a first language are more likely to read the leaflets if they're in Polish than if they're in English.

    Getting so good at a non-native language that you read it more comfortably than the one you were brought up reading is pretty much an impossible ask. I do most of my work in Japanese and read it pretty comfortably, but I just grok English much faster (*), and a message written in English would be more likely than a Japanese one to get into my brain during the time it takes to move the leaflet from my letterbox to the bin.

    * There are a couple of exceptions like mobile phone interfaces where I'd read Japanese faster, but they're specific to the fact that the Japanese writing system is much more efficient than the English one, meaning you can get a more expressive message into a limited space.

    Same here. I can read Spanish, but find it much simpler to read English.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Does anyone know what the position of the various non Christian faiths is on evolution?

    No. How is voting UKIP going to affect any of this??? How is getting out of Europe going to affect this one iota???
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited May 2014
    Financier said:

    Seven pages of EdM's health plan are laid out in the Mail.

    "He wants ‘daily physical activity’ with ‘an ambition to get half the population physically active by 2025.’

    The document adds: ‘We are currently looking at the best definition of physically active for this purpose’.

    His get fit plan includes a lottery fund to ‘finance the construction of skateboard parks, BMX tracks, netball and basketball courts. All school pupils will be taught to swim and ride a bike safely.’ Labour will aim to ensure all children do a minimum of two hours of PE a week." Where that will be done is not explained.

    He will "introduce a tougher plan for the protection of playing fields" - so will he buy back those that Labour sold off for development and initiate a wholesale demolition program?

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2619655/Labours-nanny-state-plan-drinkers-smokers-unhealthy-eaters-sparks-revolt-party-Red-Ed-says-FORCE-fit.html#ixzz30jhVOrVF



    This is a great organisation (we funded the start up costs of their Welsh arm). Well worth supporting

    http://www.fieldsintrust.org/

  • BlueberryBlueberry Posts: 408
    SeanT said:



    I remember visiting the London aquarium a year or so ago, and there was a Polish family in front of me in the queu. The mother addressed her two daughters (aged about 8 and 12) in Polish, but they answered her in grammatically perfect estuary English.

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Twas every thus. I have old school friends of Italian origin who still speak a childish version of the language to their parents around the dinner table, but which wouldn't be good enough for a business meeting in Milan. But it doesn't matter, because if they did have to negotiate in Milan, then the lingua franca would be English. And their pigeon Italian would only be of use for speaking to a hotel maid or taxi driver.

    We're very, very luck in that regard. Thank God the English beat the beat the Dutch and French in New York all those years ago. Or whatever the turning point was.

    I live in Clapham (I know you hate it and think it arriviste or whatever, but I couldn't GAF) and I often walk the common (daylight for exercise, not nighttime looking for badgers) where I hear many people people speaking French. Much more so the last few years. These are rich French, who undoubtedly speak English, but make a point of speaking to their children in the mother tongue. Assuming they stay, and I think they will, their children will end up like the Italian children above.

    BTW, on this subject, I was in Cornwall two weeks ago where my sister owns a place near Padstow. Anyway, I went to Zennor and stumbled upon the plaque on the church there for John Davey, the last Cornish speaker - by coincidence on the day that Cornwall got its 'recognition'. Shows how languages come and go. Those ancient fields are incredible. Got v sun burnt.
  • WelshBertieWelshBertie Posts: 124
    Financier said:

    Seven pages of EdM's health plan are laid out in the Mail.

    "He wants ‘daily physical activity’ with ‘an ambition to get half the population physically active by 2025.’

    The document adds: ‘We are currently looking at the best definition of physically active for this purpose’.

    His get fit plan includes a lottery fund to ‘finance the construction of skateboard parks, BMX tracks, netball and basketball courts. All school pupils will be taught to swim and ride a bike safely.’ Labour will aim to ensure all children do a minimum of two hours of PE a week." Where that will be done is not explained.

    He will "introduce a tougher plan for the protection of playing fields" - so will he buy back those that Labour sold off for development and initiate a wholesale demolition program?

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2619655/Labours-nanny-state-plan-drinkers-smokers-unhealthy-eaters-sparks-revolt-party-Red-Ed-says-FORCE-fit.html#ixzz30jhVOrVF



    Urgh, pass me the mindbleach. I've just had a vision of Ed in spandex and a bumbag making us all do our compulsory 15 minutes aerobics in a 1984-style state controlled health show. Lunge, comrades!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    UKIP voters more likely to believe in theory of evolution than supporters of other parties... Eh?
    Why are you surprised by that?
    I'm surprised that all of the mainstream parties (including UKIP, Green etc) are not scoring almost 100% on that particular question.

    The figures Carlotta quoted were +65 for UKIP, +63 for Tories and +58 for Labour.

    That means that close to 20% of the population doesn't believe in Darwin. That's (a) surprising and (b) worrying.
    Oh don't be surprised Charles (and I type that with a resigned sigh of disappointment at the world). My experience has been that there are a depressingly large number of people who not only do not understand evolution (which can be excused as a result of poor education) but who do understand it and explicitly reject it. Strangely the numbers rejecting evolution seem to be higher than the numbers claiming they are actively (as opposed to passively) religious so I have absolutely no idea what drives their beliefs.

    Serious and non leading question. Does anyone know what the position of the various non Christian faiths is on evolution?
    I believe Jews are split between Reform Jews and Orthodox Jews. Muslims tend to disbelieve. Hinduism isn't really one religion, so hard to have a view there. Buddhists, in line with the Buddha's teachings, tend to accept it:

    "Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    Looking at that ICM poll Labour are below the crucial 35%. An outlier or the shape of things to come ?

    It's not a poll. It's the Wisdom Index.

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    taffys said:

    Yet their kids will learn it, so stop kvetching

    I often marvel at how UKIP supporters moan about one facet of immigration or other they are against, and then bring up Islam/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis/Mosques as an example of this problem.

    AS if getting out of Europe would change any of this one jot!!

    Palmer's beloved Switzerland ( outside the EU ) changed things;
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8385069.stm

    Fortunately the British are far more tolerant than the ghastly Swiss.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Socrates said:

    felix said:

    Socrates said:

    felix said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    Oh get over yourself. It's ridiculous to expect all immigrants to have achieved the level of fluency adequate to understand nuanced political messages - not the same as saying they understand no English. English is already one of the world's most dominant languages and is likely to remain so.
    Get over yourself. If foreign nationals are incapable of understanding nuanced political messages in English, they shouldn't be voting in UK elections. The Tories are trying to beat UKIP on the back of foreign votes in a foreign language. They've clearly strayed a very long way from their values.
    If you're arguing for an educational voting qualification based on that the electorate would be tiny.
    I was only responding to your claim for why we needed foreign language political campaigning.

    If the Tories are happy to be the party that represents foreigners than they can do so. UKIP should just make that clear to the rest of the country how that affects their views on EU membership, including child benefit to kids living in other countries, and including spending UK taxpayer money on new roads in Eastern Europe.
    It's odd.

    In a US context you argue the Republicans are hamstrung because of their inability to appeal to Hispanic voters.

    But you criticise the Tories for trying to engage with the Poles.

    Anyone would have thought you are talking your own book. Or come from Chicago.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Agreed. And in reply to the comment downthread that all immigrants must be required to learn good English, all I can say is that the proportion of Brits resident in other countries who bother to learn the local language is far smaller than the other way round. Generally immigrants to Britain do try to improve their English as part of their general effort to get on. By contrast, I knew Brits in German Switzerland who took a perverse pride in not learning German and who spent their evenings in the English-Speaking Club, watching videos of English football and drinking imported British beer, even during the spectacular local carnival season.

    It's clearly desirable for immigrants to learn a local language and have a go at mingling. But Britain is possibly the very worst-placed country in the world to be self-righteous about it.

    This is an absurd view. Countries are responsible for their own immigrants. It is not Bangladesh's fault that Bangladeshis in the UK aren't very integrated. You are correct that many Britons in other countries are appalling in their lack of integration, but it is ridiculous to conclude from that that we shouldn't have an issue with the integration of non-Britons here.

    Anyway, UKIP are missing a trick here. If all the other parties are trying to represent UK seats on the back of foreign votes on a foreign language campaign, then they should make the voters aware of that. And loudly.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    One of my business partners has a Czech wife. He speaks to the kids only in English; she speaks only in Czech. The kids answer in the language they fancy, but speak both fluently. I imagine it may be the same with SeanT's Polish family.

    We are going to have a lot of people in this country in future years who will speak two and three languages fluently. It will be great for us.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    taffys said:

    Does anyone know what the position of the various non Christian faiths is on evolution?

    No. How is voting UKIP going to affect any of this??? How is getting out of Europe going to affect this one iota???

    Where did I say it had anything what-so ever to do with UKIP or even immigration?

    We were having a discussion about the poll findings that so many people disbelieve the theory of evolution. Surprising as it may be to someone as monomaniacal as yourself, we are able to discuss things other than UKIP or immigration on here. You should try it sometime. It is very liberating.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    Socrates said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    UKIP voters more likely to believe in theory of evolution than supporters of other parties... Eh?
    Why are you surprised by that?
    I'm surprised that all of the mainstream parties (including UKIP, Green etc) are not scoring almost 100% on that particular question.

    The figures Carlotta quoted were +65 for UKIP, +63 for Tories and +58 for Labour.

    That means that close to 20% of the population doesn't believe in Darwin. That's (a) surprising and (b) worrying.
    Oh don't be surprised Charles (and I type that with a resigned sigh of disappointment at the world). My experience has been that there are a depressingly large number of people who not only do not understand evolution (which can be excused as a result of poor education) but who do understand it and explicitly reject it. Strangely the numbers rejecting evolution seem to be higher than the numbers claiming they are actively (as opposed to passively) religious so I have absolutely no idea what drives their beliefs.

    Serious and non leading question. Does anyone know what the position of the various non Christian faiths is on evolution?
    I believe Jews are split between Reform Jews and Orthodox Jews. Muslims tend to disbelieve. Hinduism isn't really one religion, so hard to have a view there. Buddhists, in line with the Buddha's teachings, tend to accept it:

    "Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
    Ta Socrates. I presume that Islam being fractured in the same way as Christianity has its modern thinkers who accept these concepts as well as its old school types. I just wasn't sure what the underlying teachings were.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''It is not Bangladesh's fault that Bangladeshis in the UK aren't very integrated. You are correct that many Britons in other countries are appalling in their lack of integration, but it is ridiculous to conclude from that that we shouldn't have an issue with the integration of non-Britons here.''

    And for the umpteenth time. Getting out of Europe, getting out of European courts, changes this how??

    There is no link between UKIP policies and the 'problems' you highlight Socrates. No link whatsoever.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Socrates said:

    Anyway, UKIP are missing a trick here. If all the other parties are trying to represent UK seats on the back of foreign votes on a foreign language campaign, then they should make the voters aware of that. And loudly.

    Are you sure UKIP aren't doing the same thing? Even allowing for UKIP having differentially low appeal among non-native speakers, it should be pretty obvious that you write marketing messages in the language they're most likely to get read in. It may not be worth the trouble if they're delivering by hand as the logistics get complicated, but if they're doing direct mail or email campaigns it may well be worth their while to optimize like that.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Socrates said:

    Agreed. And in reply to the comment downthread that all immigrants must be required to learn good English, all I can say is that the proportion of Brits resident in other countries who bother to learn the local language is far smaller than the other way round. Generally immigrants to Britain do try to improve their English as part of their general effort to get on. By contrast, I knew Brits in German Switzerland who took a perverse pride in not learning German and who spent their evenings in the English-Speaking Club, watching videos of English football and drinking imported British beer, even during the spectacular local carnival season.

    It's clearly desirable for immigrants to learn a local language and have a go at mingling. But Britain is possibly the very worst-placed country in the world to be self-righteous about it.

    This is an absurd view. Countries are responsible for their own immigrants. It is not Bangladesh's fault that Bangladeshis in the UK aren't very integrated. You are correct that many Britons in other countries are appalling in their lack of integration, but it is ridiculous to conclude from that that we shouldn't have an issue with the integration of non-Britons here.

    Anyway, UKIP are missing a trick here. If all the other parties are trying to represent UK seats on the back of foreign votes on a foreign language campaign, then they should make the voters aware of that. And loudly.

    In the EU elections, EU citizens are not foreigners.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    One of my business partners has a Czech wife. He speaks to the kids only in English; she speaks only in Czech. The kids answer in the language they fancy, but speak both fluently. I imagine it may be the same with SeanT's Polish family.

    We are going to have a lot of people in this country in future years who will speak two and three languages fluently. It will be great for us.

    Agreed. I started my kids early on French, Spanish and German (as they were the ones available in infant/junior school). It is something they find very enjoyable, particularly when they know more than I do of a foreign language (mine are limited to French and Norwegian)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I know an Englishman with a German wife and they do the same. The children often (deliberately to needle their mother, I think) reply to a question in German with an English answer, though never the other way round.

    One of my business partners has a Czech wife. He speaks to the kids only in English; she speaks only in Czech. The kids answer in the language they fancy, but speak both fluently. I imagine it may be the same with SeanT's Polish family.

    We are going to have a lot of people in this country in future years who will speak two and three languages fluently. It will be great for us.

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Off-Topic.

    As Bristol proved quite a popular city amongst some PB regulars, perhaps they would be interested to know that today, “Crowds are lining up to watch 300 people to take turns hurtling down a giant water slide installed a street in the centre of Bristol.”

    Ticket holders, picked from nearly 100,000 applicants, will ride the slide from 11:00 BST.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-27274501
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Ta Socrates. I presume that Islam being fractured in the same way as Christianity has its modern thinkers who accept these concepts as well as its old school types. I just wasn't sure what the underlying teachings were.

    The difference between Christianity and Islam, though, is that there are now large chunks of Christianity that believe parts of the Bible are symbolic and not meant literally. Even the Catholic church, despite being generally conservative, accepts Genesis isn't a literal description. That's a very rare with regards to the Koran among the religious in the Islamic world. I believe there are a handful of reformist movements, but these have very low followings in the scheme of things. You'll get a fair number of Muslims who accept evolution, but these will be mainly the ones that aren't that religious.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    A few stay at home mums? Only a minority of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are in the labour market:

    http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/census/CoDE-Employment-Census-Briefing.pdf

    The vast bulk are not working and are not looking to. And even many of those working will be doing so in their own community, in local shops and service companies etc, where they will talk to people in the language they prefer. I've certainly lived in parts of London where shop owners would speak to members of their own ethnic group at length in another language, and only mention a few words to the English people coming in.

    But, that aside, the fact they are getting new immigrants at a faster rate than the existing ones can learn English is PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. At what point does it stop? At what point do we say, hang on, we're losing a sense of social solidarity and increasing alienation because an ever increasing share struggle to communicate in English? When will the Tories, let alone the left wing parties, recognise this? And when they do, when will they take action to actually stop mass immigration? Because none of them are doing what is needed right now.
    Well said @Socrates. SeanT is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks that immigrants from India and Pakistan want to mingle, let alone assimilate, into the main English population. All the work of New Labour and their Multiculturalism that has broken society into disparate parts.
    We all need UKIP to the rescue!
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited May 2014
    We all need UKIP to the rescue!

    Goodness me, another one How is UKIP going to help Indian and Pakistani immigrants to integrate?

    How is getting out of Europe going to help with that particular 'problem?' (bet I don;t get an answer).

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    MikeK said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    A few stay at home mums? Only a minority of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are in the labour market:

    http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/census/CoDE-Employment-Census-Briefing.pdf

    The vast bulk are not working and are not looking to. And even many of those working will be doing so in their own community, in local shops and service companies etc, where they will talk to people in the language they prefer. I've certainly lived in parts of London where shop owners would speak to members of their own ethnic group at length in another language, and only mention a few words to the English people coming in.

    But, that aside, the fact they are getting new immigrants at a faster rate than the existing ones can learn English is PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. At what point does it stop? At what point do we say, hang on, we're losing a sense of social solidarity and increasing alienation because an ever increasing share struggle to communicate in English? When will the Tories, let alone the left wing parties, recognise this? And when they do, when will they take action to actually stop mass immigration? Because none of them are doing what is needed right now.
    Well said @Socrates. SeanT is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks that immigrants from India and Pakistan want to mingle, let alone assimilate, into the main English population. All the work of New Labour and their Multiculturalism that has broken society into disparate parts.
    We all need UKIP to the rescue!

    It's true. Before 1997 everyone just rubbed along together. And you are bang on about the Indians and Pakistanis: they have absolutely no interest in mingling or assimilating - just ask Sunil and TSE.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Financier said:

    Scottish historian Allan Massie has fun with some tongue-in-cheek scenarios if YES wins in September.

    "So what happens when Scotland votes yes? Cameron's quit, the Queen is furious, the Shetlands have taken all the oil - and the Scottish economy is tanking: A brilliant 'imagining' of life after the Union"

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2619458/So-happens-Scotland-votes-yes-Camerons-quit-Queen-furious-Shetlands-taken-oil-Scottish-economy-tanking-A-brilliant-imagining-life-Union.html#ixzz30jf54yWH

    So the sad unionists knowing they are going to lose are now down to wishing ill on Scotland. Dear dear only a cretin could imagine that drivel is brilliant. How will they cope when Scotland is in fact successful.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited May 2014
    I am very suspicious of this Daily Mail Red Ed "Fight The Fat Slob" leak.

    If you look at the document that was leaked, it reads more like one big attack on the Tories than anything else. The vast majority of the document is in government "we" [Labour] did this and it was awesome and the Tories are doing something else / have caved into industry....CRRRROSSSBYYY....GOOVEEEE....BOOOOOO.

    With a bit of kite flying thrown in for good measure.

    Doesn't read like a serious document focusing in detail on Labour's approach to public health.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited May 2014
    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    .

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    In Tower Hamlets they're going to have Bangladeshi interpreters at the polling stations:
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/placing-interpreters-in-polling-stations-is-dysfunctional-and-divisive-says-minister-brandon-lewis/

    All that politician-talk about immigrants having to speak English was horseshit.
    I'm all in favour of a rigorous immigration policy, but what do you expect politicians to do about migrants who are already here, who cannot speak English? Ignore them? Let the Labour party hoover them all up?

    Daft.

    Moreover, English is such a globally dominant and mighty language any immigrant with half a brain will be desperate to learn it, and their kids will definitely learn it. They are far more likely to forget their mother tongue in two generations.

    The situation is different in places like Denmark and Sweden where migrants don't bother learning the tiny local language - they keep their mother tongue, and strive to learn English, not Swedish or Danish. This phenomenon explains much of the rise of hard right parties in Nordic countries.

    Why bother learning English?

    http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2794293
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    AndyJS said:

    "Cyril Smith admitted spanking and touching boys, but I let him stay, says Lord Steel

    Lord Steel, the former Liberal leader, said he confronted Cyril Smith over allegations that he spanked and touched teenagers and was 'surprised' when he admitted they were true"

    An article in Private Eye in 1979 alleged that Smith, who was secretary of the Cambridge House boys hostel, put teenagers across his knee, pulled down their trousers and spanked them as a “punishment” in the 1960s.

    Lord Steel said: “I asked Cyril Smith about it. I was half expecting him to say it was all wrong, and I would have been urging him to sue to save his reputation. To my surprise he said the report was correct.

    “He had some kind of supervisory role, I don’t know what it was, in these institutions in Rochdale which he reckoned entitled him to be involved in corporal punishment.”


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/10796546/Cyril-Smith-admitted-spanking-and-touching-boys-but-I-let-him-stay-says-Lord-Steel.html

    That's Lib Dems for you
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited May 2014
    Before 1997 everyone just rubbed along together.

    Even if the 'problem' that the kippers identify actually exists, I completely fail to see how UKIP's get out of Europe policy changes it one iota.

    Ukippers complain about immigration and then give examples of communities that would be utterly unaffected by any of their polices.

    Ask them ,like I have today repeatedly, and all you get is silence
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    good old Paddy pants down, that's Lib Dems for you as bent as three bob bits
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    taffys said:

    Before 1997 everyone just rubbed along together.

    Even if the 'problem' that the kippers identify actually exists, I completely fail to see how UKIP's get out of Europe policy changes it one iota.

    Ukippers complain about immigration and then give examples of communities that would be utterly unaffected by any of their polices.

    Ask them ,like I have today, and all you get is silence

    Integration does happen naturally, albeit slowly, so these communities should improve wih reduced future immigration. We would also prevent it happening to other communities, as will happen on the present course.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    It's true. Before 1997 everyone just rubbed along together. And you are bang on about the Indians and Pakistanis: they have absolutely no interest in mingling or assimilating - just ask Sunil and TSE.

    TBF to MikeK, "multiculturalism" (which I struggle to distinguish from "separate but equal") became the government preference only after 1997. I much prefer the melting-pot concept.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited May 2014
    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    The parliamentary Conservative Party voted against a referendum as recently as October 2011, it's only since the rise of UKIP that they have started peddling the notion that the Conservative Party is in favour of a referendum again.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Agreed. And in reply to the comment downthread that all immigrants must be required to learn good English, all I can say is that the proportion of Brits resident in other countries who bother to learn the local language is far smaller than the other way round. Generally immigrants to Britain do try to improve their English as part of their general effort to get on. By contrast, I knew Brits in German Switzerland who took a perverse pride in not learning German and who spent their evenings in the English-Speaking Club, watching videos of English football and drinking imported British beer, even during the spectacular local carnival season.

    It's clearly desirable for immigrants to learn a local language and have a go at mingling. But Britain is possibly the very worst-placed country in the world to be self-righteous about it.

    This is an absurd view. Countries are responsible for their own immigrants. It is not Bangladesh's fault that Bangladeshis in the UK aren't very integrated. You are correct that many Britons in other countries are appalling in their lack of integration, but it is ridiculous to conclude from that that we shouldn't have an issue with the integration of non-Britons here.

    Anyway, UKIP are missing a trick here. If all the other parties are trying to represent UK seats on the back of foreign votes on a foreign language campaign, then they should make the voters aware of that. And loudly.

    In the EU elections, EU citizens are not foreigners.

    The EU is a game for national interest and always has been. To pretend otherwise is a joke.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789
    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    But we did get a referendum on AV.

    So it seems we can have a referendum on things if Cameron wanted it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Charles said:



    It's true. Before 1997 everyone just rubbed along together. And you are bang on about the Indians and Pakistanis: they have absolutely no interest in mingling or assimilating - just ask Sunil and TSE.

    TBF to MikeK, "multiculturalism" (which I struggle to distinguish from "separate but equal") became the government preference only after 1997. I much prefer the melting-pot concept.

    Really? How did this new preference manifest itself? There was not much of a melting pot in Sparkbrook when I lived there in the early 1980s.

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited May 2014
    malcolmg said:

    good old Paddy pants down, that's Lib Dems for you as bent as three bob bits
    Ashdown has and the late Robin Cook had the measure of the perennially wrong Salmond;

    " The events leading up to Kosovo showed that Salmond was, in the words of the late Robin Cook, “unfit to lead”.

    He (Salmond) said then, “Let me see if I am right”. He was not. Once again, he is on the wrong side of human rights groups and civil society."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    But we did get a referendum on AV.

    So it seems we can have a referendum on things if Cameron wanted it.
    Yet another person who does not understand coalition politics ...
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Sunday Herald is first paper to back Scottish independence

    ''Scotland is an ancient nation and a modern society. We understand the past, as best we can, and guess at the future. But history is as nothing to the lives of the children being born now, this morning, in the cities, towns and villages of this country.

    "On their behalf, we assert a claim to a better, more decent, more just future in which a country's governments will be ruled always by the decisions of its citizens.''

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/sunday-herald-is-first-paper-to-back-scottish-independence.1399149163
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    .

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    In Tower Hamlets they're going to have Bangladeshi interpreters at the polling stations:
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/placing-interpreters-in-polling-stations-is-dysfunctional-and-divisive-says-minister-brandon-lewis/

    All that politician-talk about immigrants having to speak English was horseshit.
    I'm all in favour of a rigorous immigration policy, but what do you expect politicians to do about migrants who are already here, who cannot speak English? Ignore them? Let the Labour party hoover them all up?

    Daft.

    Moreover, English is such a globally dominant and mighty language any immigrant with half a brain will be desperate to learn it, and their kids will definitely learn it. They are far more likely to forget their mother tongue in two generations.

    The situation is different in places like Denmark and Sweden where migrants don't bother learning the tiny local language - they keep their mother tongue, and strive to learn English, not Swedish or Danish. This phenomenon explains much of the rise of hard right parties in Nordic countries.

    Why bother learning English?

    http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2794293

    Just the same in Chinatown and has been for years.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    taffys said:

    We all need UKIP to the rescue!

    Goodness me, another one How is UKIP going to help Indian and Pakistani immigrants to integrate?

    How is getting out of Europe going to help with that particular 'problem?' (bet I don;t get an answer).

    The Answer, which you and your ilk fail to contemplate, is that the UKIP policy on Europe is only one the many policies in it's manifesto:
    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf?1397750311

    And:
    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1398869254/EuroManifestoLaunch.pdf?1398869254
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Agreed. And in reply to the comment downthread that all immigrants must be required to learn good English, all I can say is that the proportion of Brits resident in other countries who bother to learn the local language is far smaller than the other way round. Generally immigrants to Britain do try to improve their English as part of their general effort to get on. By contrast, I knew Brits in German Switzerland who took a perverse pride in not learning German and who spent their evenings in the English-Speaking Club, watching videos of English football and drinking imported British beer, even during the spectacular local carnival season.

    It's clearly desirable for immigrants to learn a local language and have a go at mingling. But Britain is possibly the very worst-placed country in the world to be self-righteous about it.

    This is an absurd view. Countries are responsible for their own immigrants. It is not Bangladesh's fault that Bangladeshis in the UK aren't very integrated. You are correct that many Britons in other countries are appalling in their lack of integration, but it is ridiculous to conclude from that that we shouldn't have an issue with the integration of non-Britons here.

    Anyway, UKIP are missing a trick here. If all the other parties are trying to represent UK seats on the back of foreign votes on a foreign language campaign, then they should make the voters aware of that. And loudly.

    In the EU elections, EU citizens are not foreigners.

    The EU is a game for national interest and always has been. To pretend otherwise is a joke.
    You can make that argument about the Council of Ministers if you like, but the EU Parliament isn't a game for national interest, and doesn't act like it is.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    taffys said:

    Before 1997 everyone just rubbed along together.

    Even if the 'problem' that the kippers identify actually exists, I completely fail to see how UKIP's get out of Europe policy changes it one iota.

    Ukippers complain about immigration and then give examples of communities that would be utterly unaffected by any of their polices.

    Ask them ,like I have today repeatedly, and all you get is silence

    Taffys, I am not a Kipper.

    But their immigration policy (points I believe) is intended to deal with immigration issues and their European policy (BOO) with European issues.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Integration does happen naturally, albeit slowly, so these communities should improve wih reduced future immigration.

    That might be true but I still think that, given immigration from outside the EU is already pretty limited, these should be treated as two separate issues.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    "More than 40 per cent of state school children in London speak English as a second language, research shows."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/english-a-second-language-for-40-of-london-pupils-6545682.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    "EX-Chancellor Gordon Brown has claimed a £1 calculator on expenses"

    Insert joke here....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    The parliamentary Conservative Party voted against a referendum as recently as October 2011, it's only since the rise of UKIP that they have started peddling the notion that the Conservative Party is in favour of a referendum again.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    They voted for James Wardell (?) Private members bill.

    Don't forget the Tory policy is renegotiate then vote. I don't remember, but wasn't the 2011 vote demanding a refernedum immediately?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think that you are off the mark. The Hindu, Jain and Sikh communities tend to integrate fairly well, though the older generation often less so.

    The Muslim community tends to be less so, with the traditional elements not wanting women to mingle outside the family, and particularly with non muslims.

    The Poles that I meet seem to be integratiing very well, though a distinct community. In twenty years they will be indistinguishable from other Britons, like the earlier wave of postwar settlement, apart from strange customs such as carp for Christmas dinner. Definitely worse than Turkey!
    MikeK said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.


    http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/census/CoDE-Employment-Census-Briefing.pdf

    The vast bulk are not working and are not looking to. And even many of those working will be doing so in their own community, in local shops and service companies etc, where they will talk to people in the language they prefer. I've certainly lived in parts of London where shop owners would speak to members of their own ethnic group at length in another language, and only mention a few words to the English people coming in.

    Well said @Socrates. SeanT is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks that immigrants from India and Pakistan want to mingle, let alone assimilate, into the main English population. All the work of New Labour and their Multiculturalism that has broken society into disparate parts.
    We all need UKIP to the rescue!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457
    MikeK said:

    taffys said:

    We all need UKIP to the rescue!

    Goodness me, another one How is UKIP going to help Indian and Pakistani immigrants to integrate?

    How is getting out of Europe going to help with that particular 'problem?' (bet I don;t get an answer).

    The Answer, which you and your ilk fail to contemplate, is that the UKIP policy on Europe is only one the many policies in it's manifesto:
    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf?1397750311

    And:
    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1398869254/EuroManifestoLaunch.pdf?1398869254
    We'll have to wait to see how long this manifesto lasts compared to the UKIP 2010 GE election manifesto.

    In particular, how long before it is classed as 'drivel and nonsense' by your leader?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    "More than 40 per cent of state school children in London speak English as a second language, research shows."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/english-a-second-language-for-40-of-london-pupils-6545682.html

    But they speak English. That's good, isn't it? And the more bilingual and trilingual people we have in the UK the better it will be for us in the future. It's shame the proportion of Chinese speakers is falling.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789
    Charles said:



    You are missing the point as much as me. "Andy's PA couldn't afford to live in London." is the biggest problem, followed by the salary she's getting. The cost of the journey is a poor third.

    The potential solutions:
    1) Make housing costs in London (indeed all cities) cheaper.
    2) Pay her more.
    3) Artificially depress rail ticket prices even more, at cost to the general taxpayer.

    What you are calling for is rail ticket prices to be subsidised even more by the taxpayer, just so companies can keep down wages. That's fair enough, but at least be honest about it.

    (As an aside, I fail to see how Miliband's latest wheeze will depress ticket prices in the medium or long term)

    We need to make housing costs cheaper buy building more and building smarter

    It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons.

    In my view, railways do have positive externalities, so there is a case for government subsidy. But all I was pointing out was that the current position is unsustainable. When an individual who is paid the median wage can't afford to live closer than 60 minutes from her workplace and can barely afford travel to work there is a problem that needs addressing.

    "It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons."

    The market rate varies from place to place and so the market rate for someone working as a PA for a director of a major business on Oxford Street (and £25K doesn't sound high at all to me) is going to be higher than for a similar position in a cheaper location.

    If businesses want to base themselves in central London they have a responsibility to meet the resulting higher costs themselves and not look for various indirect subsidies from the taxpayer to allow them to do it on the cheap.

    Alternatively if they want PAs to be afford to live in a style you see fit on £25K then they can always relocate someone with cheaper property costs.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited May 2014
    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    The parliamentary Conservative Party voted against a referendum as recently as October 2011, it's only since the rise of UKIP that they have started peddling the notion that the Conservative Party is in favour of a referendum again.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    They voted for James Wardell (?) Private members bill.

    Don't forget the Tory policy is renegotiate then vote. I don't remember, but wasn't the 2011 vote demanding a refernedum immediately?
    Mr Wharton was one of those who voted against a referendum in 2011.

    Shortly after the EU Parliament elections, the Conservatives intend to pass powers over Justice and Home affairs to the EU. They don't have to, they want to. The vote is scheduled for July 22nd.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100260182/the-next-tory-plot-to-embarrass-david-cameron-on-europe-is-already-taking-shape/

    (see the video below, starting from 8m45s)

    http://youtu.be/c3JnIw50zL8?t=8m45s
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Schapps didn't appear a happy man today.You can understand why when, on the other side ,Andrew Mitchell made such a big play for Schapps' job.
    Grant Schapps you are the weakest link,goodbye.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    .

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    In Tower Hamlets they're going to have Bangladeshi interpreters at the polling stations:
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/placing-interpreters-in-polling-stations-is-dysfunctional-and-divisive-says-minister-brandon-lewis/

    All that politician-talk about immigrants having to speak English was horseshit.
    I'm all in favour of a rigorous immigration policy, but what do you expect politicians to do about migrants who are already here, who cannot speak English? Ignore them? Let the Labour party hoover them all up?

    Daft.

    Moreover, English is such a globally dominant and mighty language any immigrant with half a brain will be desperate to learn it, and their kids will definitely learn it. They are far more likely to forget their mother tongue in two generations.

    The situation is different in places like Denmark and Sweden where migrants don't bother learning the tiny local language - they keep their mother tongue, and strive to learn English, not Swedish or Danish. This phenomenon explains much of the rise of hard right parties in Nordic countries.

    Why bother learning English?

    http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2794293

    Just the same in Chinatown and has been for years.
    So what?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    good old Paddy pants down, that's Lib Dems for you as bent as three bob bits
    Ashdown has and the late Robin Cook had the measure of the perennially wrong Salmond;

    " The events leading up to Kosovo showed that Salmond was, in the words of the late Robin Cook, “unfit to lead”.

    He (Salmond) said then, “Let me see if I am right”. He was not. Once again, he is on the wrong side of human rights groups and civil society."
    Him and paddy would have been great pals, both had issues keeping the trousers up. I am afraid that a rat that did not have the courage to tell his wife he was planning to leave her for his fancy piece until rumbled by the newspapers is not a man I would take lectures from on principles. Usual unprincipled , two faced labour MP , morals and principals free.
    You have some strange hero's Monica, both lying , cheating unprincipled , self seeking chancers whose word you could never trust.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    As I sense it,there`s absolutely no enthusiasm in the country for these Euro elections.Turnout is going to be extremely low.On that basis,UKIP will top the poll as their voters are the most motivated.Lab 2nd,Tories 3rd.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    .

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    In Tower Hamlets they're going to have Bangladeshi interpreters at the polling stations:
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/placing-interpreters-in-polling-stations-is-dysfunctional-and-divisive-says-minister-brandon-lewis/

    All that politician-talk about immigrants having to speak English was horseshit.
    I'm all in favour of a rigorous immigration policy, but what do you expect politicians to do about migrants who are already here, who cannot speak English? Ignore them? Let the Labour party hoover them all up?

    Daft.

    Moreover, English is such a globally dominant and mighty language any immigrant with half a brain will be desperate to learn it, and their kids will definitely learn it. They are far more likely to forget their mother tongue in two generations.

    The situation is different in places like Denmark and Sweden where migrants don't bother learning the tiny local language - they keep their mother tongue, and strive to learn English, not Swedish or Danish. This phenomenon explains much of the rise of hard right parties in Nordic countries.

    Why bother learning English?

    http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2794293

    Just the same in Chinatown and has been for years.
    So what?

    If I go to Chinatown and speak in English everyone understands me perfectly.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    "More than 40 per cent of state school children in London speak English as a second language, research shows."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/english-a-second-language-for-40-of-london-pupils-6545682.html

    But they speak English. That's good, isn't it? And the more bilingual and trilingual people we have in the UK the better it will be for us in the future. It's shame the proportion of Chinese speakers is falling.
    Its good that they can speak English, but I think it is bad for a society to have such large proportions of people who don't speak the native tongue as a first language. It cant help with social cohesion in my opinion. No doubt you will disagree, but that's my take on it
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    SMukesh said:

    As I sense it,there`s absolutely no enthusiasm in the country for these Euro elections.Turnout is going to be extremely low.On that basis,UKIP will top the poll as their voters are the most motivated.Lab 2nd,Tories 3rd.

    It's looking that way. We've had a UKIP leaflet through the door and that's it. This is UKIP's moment and they know it. The interesting bit is what happens afterwards.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    .

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    In Tower Hamlets they're going to have Bangladeshi interpreters at the polling stations:
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/placing-interpreters-in-polling-stations-is-dysfunctional-and-divisive-says-minister-brandon-lewis/

    All that politician-talk about immigrants having to speak English was horseshit.
    I'm all in favour of a rigorous immigration policy, but what do you expect politicians to do about migrants who are already here, who cannot speak English? Ignore them? Let the Labour party hoover them all up?

    Daft.

    Moreover, English is such a globally dominant and mighty language any immigrant with half a brain will be desperate to learn it, and their kids will definitely learn it. They are far more likely to forget their mother tongue in two generations.

    The situation is different in places like Denmark and Sweden where migrants don't bother learning the tiny local language - they keep their mother tongue, and strive to learn English, not Swedish or Danish. This phenomenon explains much of the rise of hard right parties in Nordic countries.

    Why bother learning English?

    http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2794293

    Just the same in Chinatown and has been for years.
    So what?

    If I go to Chinatown and speak in English everyone understands me perfectly.

    Poor them!
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    The parliamentary Conservative Party voted against a referendum as recently as October 2011, it's only since the rise of UKIP that they have started peddling the notion that the Conservative Party is in favour of a referendum again.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    They voted for James Wardell (?) Private members bill.

    Don't forget the Tory policy is renegotiate then vote. I don't remember, but wasn't the 2011 vote demanding a refernedum immediately?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:




    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    "More than 40 per cent of state school children in London speak English as a second language, research shows."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/english-a-second-language-for-40-of-london-pupils-6545682.html

    But they speak English. That's good, isn't it? And the more bilingual and trilingual people we have in the UK the better it will be for us in the future. It's shame the proportion of Chinese speakers is falling.
    Its good that they can speak English, but I think it is bad for a society to have such large proportions of people who don't speak the native tongue as a first language. It cant help with social cohesion in my opinion. No doubt you will disagree, but that's my take on it

    Yes, we'll have to disagree. The fact that all these kids from different communities and backgrounds are being taught in English and speak it fluently to each other looks like a good thing from where I am sitting.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    .

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    In Tower Hamlets they're going to have Bangladeshi interpreters at the polling stations:
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/placing-interpreters-in-polling-stations-is-dysfunctional-and-divisive-says-minister-brandon-lewis/

    All that politician-talk about immigrants having to speak English was horseshit.
    I'm all in favour of a rigorous immigration policy, but what do you expect politicians to do about migrants who are already here, who cannot speak English? Ignore them? Let the Labour party hoover them all up?

    Daft.

    Moreover, English is such a globally dominant and mighty language any immigrant with half a brain will be desperate to learn it, and their kids will definitely learn it. They are far more likely to forget their mother tongue in two generations.

    The situation is different in places like Denmark and Sweden where migrants don't bother learning the tiny local language - they keep their mother tongue, and strive to learn English, not Swedish or Danish. This phenomenon explains much of the rise of hard right parties in Nordic countries.

    Why bother learning English?

    http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2794293

    Just the same in Chinatown and has been for years.
    So what?

    If I go to Chinatown and speak in English everyone understands me perfectly.

    Poor them!

    Not really - it means they can make money out of me.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    You are missing the point as much as me. "Andy's PA couldn't afford to live in London." is the biggest problem, followed by the salary she's getting. The cost of the journey is a poor third.

    The potential solutions:
    1) Make housing costs in London (indeed all cities) cheaper.
    2) Pay her more.
    3) Artificially depress rail ticket prices even more, at cost to the general taxpayer.

    What you are calling for is rail ticket prices to be subsidised even more by the taxpayer, just so companies can keep down wages. That's fair enough, but at least be honest about it.

    (As an aside, I fail to see how Miliband's latest wheeze will depress ticket prices in the medium or long term)

    We need to make housing costs cheaper buy building more and building smarter

    It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons.

    In my view, railways do have positive externalities, so there is a case for government subsidy. But all I was pointing out was that the current position is unsustainable. When an individual who is paid the median wage can't afford to live closer than 60 minutes from her workplace and can barely afford travel to work there is a problem that needs addressing.

    "It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons."

    The market rate varies from place to place and so the market rate for someone working as a PA for a director of a major business on Oxford Street (and £25K doesn't sound high at all to me) is going to be higher than for a similar position in a cheaper location.

    If businesses want to base themselves in central London they have a responsibility to meet the resulting higher costs themselves and not look for various indirect subsidies from the taxpayer to allow them to do it on the cheap.

    Alternatively if they want PAs to be afford to live in a style you see fit on £25K then they can always relocate someone with cheaper property costs.
    Believe me, Stefano is cheap! The london office is a suite of temporary rooms on the unused top floor of a Boots store...
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    perdix said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    The parliamentary Conservative Party voted against a referendum as recently as October 2011, it's only since the rise of UKIP that they have started peddling the notion that the Conservative Party is in favour of a referendum again.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    They voted for James Wardell (?) Private members bill.

    Don't forget the Tory policy is renegotiate then vote. I don't remember, but wasn't the 2011 vote demanding a refernedum immediately?
    If some MPs want an immediate referendum they will lose the parliamentary vote on it. There is not a majority in parliament for holding an immediate referendum. So it won't happen. Purely political posturing.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    But we did get a referendum on AV.

    So it seems we can have a referendum on things if Cameron wanted it.
    Yet another person who does not understand coalition politics ...
    I understand it rather better than you.

    And clearly the LibDems wanted a referendum on AV far more than Cameron wanted a referendum on the EU.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    perdix said:

    perdix said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    The parliamentary Conservative Party voted against a referendum as recently as October 2011, it's only since the rise of UKIP that they have started peddling the notion that the Conservative Party is in favour of a referendum again.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    They voted for James Wardell (?) Private members bill.

    Don't forget the Tory policy is renegotiate then vote. I don't remember, but wasn't the 2011 vote demanding a refernedum immediately?
    If some MPs want an immediate referendum they will lose the parliamentary vote on it. There is not a majority in parliament for holding an immediate referendum. So it won't happen. Purely political posturing.

    There's a majority in the House of Commons. The reporting was that the Conservatives didn't try to get a majority in the House of Lords.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    .

    SeanT said:

    Blueberry said:

    Socrates said:

    In parts of London the Tories are sending out Polish language leaflets for the EU elections. It just shows how they recognise that many of the people here aren't even integrated enough to read the native language properly. I thought we were supposed to be an English-speaking country?

    In Tower Hamlets they're going to have Bangladeshi interpreters at the polling stations:
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/placing-interpreters-in-polling-stations-is-dysfunctional-and-divisive-says-minister-brandon-lewis/

    All that politician-talk about immigrants having to speak English was horseshit.
    I'm all in favour of a rigorous immigration policy, but what do you expect politicians to do about migrants who are already here, who cannot speak English? Ignore them? Let the Labour party hoover them all up?

    Daft.

    Moreover, English is such a globally dominant and mighty language any immigrant with half a brain will be desperate to learn it, and their kids will definitely learn it. They are far more likely to forget their mother tongue in two generations.

    The situation is different in places like Denmark and Sweden where migrants don't bother learning the tiny local language - they keep their mother tongue, and strive to learn English, not Swedish or Danish. This phenomenon explains much of the rise of hard right parties in Nordic countries.

    Why bother learning English?

    http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2794293

    Just the same in Chinatown and has been for years.
    So what?

    If I go to Chinatown and speak in English everyone understands me perfectly.

    Poor them!

    Not really - it means they can make money out of me.

    A person working in a take away can read a menu in English=every immigrant can speak it perfectly.. yeah righto

    Why bother having the street names translated if they are all so fluent in English?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    "Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    May 2009 EU election launch, Cameron: Vote Tory to get a referendum.
    May 2014, EU election launch Cameron: vote Tory to get a referendum"

    twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/462169908869341184

    :-)

    And if enough people had voted Tory, soi that they formed a majority after 2010, then you might have got one.
    The parliamentary Conservative Party voted against a referendum as recently as October 2011, it's only since the rise of UKIP that they have started peddling the notion that the Conservative Party is in favour of a referendum again.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    They voted for James Wardell (?) Private members bill.

    Don't forget the Tory policy is renegotiate then vote. I don't remember, but wasn't the 2011 vote demanding a refernedum immediately?
    Mr Wharton was one of those who voted against a referendum in 2011.

    Shortly after the EU Parliament elections, the Conservatives intend to pass powers over Justice and Home affairs to the EU. They don't have to, they want to. The vote is scheduled for July 22nd.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100260182/the-next-tory-plot-to-embarrass-david-cameron-on-europe-is-already-taking-shape/

    (see the video below, starting from 8m45s)

    http://youtu.be/c3JnIw50zL8?t=8m45s
    The whole EU strategy of the Cameroons is based on deceit.

    They are as fully committed to the 'European Project' as the LibDems.

    But the LibDems have the honesty and integrity to say so and to argue their case.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    I saw a certain forlorn look on her face: a poignant expression which said - one day my kids will forget Polish, and I won't be able to talk to them in their mother tongue. And she was right. They will forget Polish, just as they will forget Punjabi, Swahili, Chinese and Arabic.

    Yet, sixty years after the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent to Tower Hamlets, they still have Bengali translators at polling stations, and street signs in foreign languages.
    That's because we are still getting new immigrants from the subcontinent, not because vast numbers of third generation immigrants haven't learned English. Apart from a few stay at home mums it just doesn't happen. People are DESPERATE to learn English around the world, the fact Britain speaks English is one of the main reasons we are such a magnet for migrants: they know that their kids will grow up speaking the global language, which will give them a head start in life.
    "More than 40 per cent of state school children in London speak English as a second language, research shows."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/english-a-second-language-for-40-of-london-pupils-6545682.html

    But they speak English. That's good, isn't it? And the more bilingual and trilingual people we have in the UK the better it will be for us in the future. It's shame the proportion of Chinese speakers is falling.
    If you really think its good for British kids' development when theyre in classes where half the kids aren't speaking English easily, you've clearly never met a teacher that has taught such a class. It sets them back years.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    @iSam - Why bother having the street names translated if they are all so fluent in English?



    In Chinatown it's done for the tourism. I suspect it's the same in the very few streets around Brick Lane (Banglatown) where they do the same thing.

    There are more things to buy in Chinatown than a takeaway. In fact, you'd probably struggle to get one there.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "Have you noticed how the BBC discusses UKIP as if it is a problem rather than a legitimate party? Have you observed the pathetic attempts of Tory spin-doctors (who can think of nothing to say in favour of their own organisation) to smear UKIP from morn till night?

    Have you also noticed the slavish obedience of political journalists, who have spent the past ten years ignoring the biggest issues in British politics – the EU and immigration – but now recycle these trivial slanders in the hope that they can save the old, dying parties which have spoon-fed them all their stories?

    This sort of ganging up has not worked on the Scots, who understandably grow fonder of independence with every stupid threat and falsehood. I have a feeling it’s not going to work on the English either – and in case you hadn’t noticed by now, Nigel Farage is in fact England’s answer to Alex Salmond."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2619616/PETER-HITCHENS-Theyve-killed-marriage-hopes-happy-life.html#ixzz30k7o84Yh
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    @iSam - Why bother having the street names translated if they are all so fluent in English?

    In Chinatown it's done for the tourism. I suspect it's the same in the very few streets around Brick Lane (Banglatown) where they do the same thing.

    There are more things to buy in Chinatown than a takeaway. In fact, you'd probably struggle to get one there.


    You genuinely think the streetnames are in Bengali in East London for tourism purposes?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited May 2014



    "It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons."

    The market rate varies from place to place and so the market rate for someone working as a PA for a director of a major business on Oxford Street (and £25K doesn't sound high at all to me) is going to be higher than for a similar position in a cheaper location.

    If businesses want to base themselves in central London they have a responsibility to meet the resulting higher costs themselves and not look for various indirect subsidies from the taxpayer to allow them to do it on the cheap.

    Alternatively if they want PAs to be afford to live in a style you see fit on £25K then they can always relocate someone with cheaper property costs.

    Well said, Mr. Richard! Might I suggest that the level, indeed the existence, of in-work benefits already suggests that many businesses are dependent on taxpayer subsidies and that the market-rate for low to medium paying jobs is nothing of the sort. It is what a business can get away with knowing the taxpayer will make up the difference.

    We seem to have got ourselves into a right pickle in the last thirty years or so. Companies claim they can't pay more without driving up prices so the taxpayer steps in which pushes up taxes and lowers the money available for public spending on essential services and those benefits largely ending up in the pockets of the already wealthy who are the ones saying we can't pay more otherwise prices will have to go up and they will go out of business.

    Somehow we need to break the cycle. God knows how that is to be done, though. Personally, I think Miliband was onto something with his pre-distribution (would, to take, Charles's example Boots have gone bust if the man paid his PA an extra £5k a year), but he fecked up the presentation and then seemed to forget about it. Maybe slashing in-work benefits would force companies to step up to the plate but the howls of pain in the transition period would be so horrendous no politician would dare to contemplate it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    @Socrates - "If you really think its good for British kids' development when theyre in classes where half the kids aren't speaking English easily, you've clearly never met a teacher that has taught such a class. It sets them back years."

    Schools in multi-lingual London tend to significantly outperform schools in other, less multi-lingual parts of the country. See Tower Hamlets, for example.
  • General Election 2015 - Who will win?

    Here's what The Daily Telegraph writers think :

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10806721/General-Election-2015-who-will-win.html
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789
    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    You are missing the point as much as me. "Andy's PA couldn't afford to live in London." is the biggest problem, followed by the salary she's getting. The cost of the journey is a poor third.

    The potential solutions:
    1) Make housing costs in London (indeed all cities) cheaper.
    2) Pay her more.
    3) Artificially depress rail ticket prices even more, at cost to the general taxpayer.

    What you are calling for is rail ticket prices to be subsidised even more by the taxpayer, just so companies can keep down wages. That's fair enough, but at least be honest about it.

    (As an aside, I fail to see how Miliband's latest wheeze will depress ticket prices in the medium or long term)

    We need to make housing costs cheaper buy building more and building smarter

    It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons.

    In my view, railways do have positive externalities, so there is a case for government subsidy. But all I was pointing out was that the current position is unsustainable. When an individual who is paid the median wage can't afford to live closer than 60 minutes from her workplace and can barely afford travel to work there is a problem that needs addressing.

    "It's not up to companies to pay more than the market rate unless they want to for specific reasons."

    The market rate varies from place to place and so the market rate for someone working as a PA for a director of a major business on Oxford Street (and £25K doesn't sound high at all to me) is going to be higher than for a similar position in a cheaper location.

    If businesses want to base themselves in central London they have a responsibility to meet the resulting higher costs themselves and not look for various indirect subsidies from the taxpayer to allow them to do it on the cheap.

    Alternatively if they want PAs to be afford to live in a style you see fit on £25K then they can always relocate someone with cheaper property costs.
    Believe me, Stefano is cheap! The london office is a suite of temporary rooms on the unused top floor of a Boots store...
    Well we could discuss concepts such as sunk costs, opportunity costs and the value of depreciated fixed assets but it sounds too much like work to me.

    But I will point out some temporary rooms above a shop are only the property component of the cost to Boots. Unless the PA lives up there too her labour cost component isn't going to be affected by the cost of the property where she works but the cost of the property where she lives.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:

    @iSam - Why bother having the street names translated if they are all so fluent in English?

    In Chinatown it's done for the tourism. I suspect it's the same in the very few streets around Brick Lane (Banglatown) where they do the same thing.

    There are more things to buy in Chinatown than a takeaway. In fact, you'd probably struggle to get one there.
    You genuinely think the streetnames are in Bengali in East London for tourism purposes?



    I think it's a slightly less ridiculous idea than believing that a few street signs are bilingual because there is a serious problem with people in those areas not being able to speak English.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    General Election 2015 - Who will win?

    Here's what The Daily Telegraph writers think :

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10806721/General-Election-2015-who-will-win.html

    Sue Cameron and Fraser Nelson are the only two predicting Ed M PM - they are also the only two who mention about the favourable situation in terms of this election to Labour.

    "David Cameron" and "Ed Miliband" are not names on the ballot paper. If we had a straight nationwide "Choose the PM" with just Ed and Dave on the ballot paper then Cameron would win, handsomely. But we don't - so why do so many pundits act as if this is the case. ?
This discussion has been closed.