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  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,496
    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    Is death avoidable? Tell me more.
    Yes, these are premature deaths.

    Reading through the Amos report on maternity services, it is clear that one of the biggest issues is that British maternity units do not emply enough midwives, Obstetricians and Obstetric Anaesthetists to operates safe services.

    There are other issues including racism, poor teamworking, culture wars over "natural childbirth", dysfunctional management and antiquainted buildings. To be honest, none of this is surprising as it has been the case for decades and it was obvious to 21 year old me in my medical school training. No doubt similar in other areas such as Psychiatry too that have been neglected over the years.

    But instead of funding and addressing these issues lets bung Trump's friends in Big Pharma £45 billion over a decade in the hope that the crocodile eats us last.

    That comment about Big Pharma.

    Family member was in drug discovery and then drug marketing. When looking at pricing worldwide, there was a degree of flexibility for non-US sales as the companies knew they could command a premium on US sales which effectively subsidised the RoW. Call it a Pharma Dividend and like the US's Peace Dividend, it's now going.

    Post Trump world is going to be a lot more expensive for us, unfortunately.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,053
    Brixian59 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    God Save the King / Queen is uninspiring
    Jerusalem is a great tune but all a bit Yorkshire innit?
    Land of Hope and Glory - rousing but hardly modern
    Rule Brittania - naff!
    Wonderwall - pub band pub song
    It's Coming home - ditto

    We need an ANTHEM....a proper anthemic song!

    A shame the best football song by a million miles one that perfectly encapsulates the peaks and troughs of life, the ultimate goal and the trials and tribulations along the way is a song originating in Scotland ....

    As sung by Harry Lauder and it was played at my Dads funeral

    KRO
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,053
    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,097

    Battlebus said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    Is death avoidable? Tell me more.
    Death is very avoidable… for a time. Sure, everyone is going to die, but I presume you’d rather it was later rather than sooner.
    Not necessarily, no.

    Quality not quantity.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,142
    Brixian59 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    God Save the King / Queen is uninspiring
    Jerusalem is a great tune but all a bit Yorkshire innit?
    Land of Hope and Glory - rousing but hardly modern
    Rule Brittania - naff!
    Wonderwall - pub band pub song
    It's Coming home - ditto

    We need an ANTHEM....a proper anthemic song!

    A shame the best football song by a million miles one that perfectly encapsulates the peaks and troughs of life, the ultimate goal and the trials and tribulations along the way is a song originating in Scotland ....

    I’ve seen “A.ways look on the bright side of life suggested.”

    Personal choice if GSTK went would be “I vow to thee my country.” Beautiful music, strong message, good to belt out in a crowd.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,530
    Taz said:

    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro

    Oh Jamal, you silly man. Could have kept quiet, but now you've just made yourself a news story and guaranteed a tap on the shoulder.

    The thirst for fame really does relieve people of their common sense sometimes.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,207
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    If I've heard of your watch brand it is average consumer luxury, not proper luxury. I shouldn't even know who a billionaire can somehow pay £5k for a plain t-shirt.

    I recently bought my eldest a pair of jeans that cost £1,100.

    My colleagues and friends who are used to my extravagances and excesses were left shocked, these are the people who say if you look up 'More money than sense' you'll find me.

    I'm not a billionaire but a trip to Harrods really does blow your mind.

    There was a jacket on sale for £38,000.
    I’ve just bought a new tent purely using this post as justification.
    It’s a Hilleberg, I’m going to move some cash out of the ISA and conceal it from my partner.
    Do you go on camping trips together? The concealing could be tricky if so?
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,053
    edited 6:41AM
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro

    I notice that you didn't quote these paragraphs:

    "Since Brexit, the UK no longer has a data-sharing agreement with many countries in the EU, making it more difficult to check criminal and immigration records of asylum seekers, according to Lucy Morton of the Immigration Services Union.

    "If we were able to share databases, even if just with our nearest neighbours, with Germany, with Belgium, with Holland and France, say - then, yes, we'd know that they had a conviction for people smuggling," she said.

    Asylum seekers are fingerprinted on arrival in the UK and checked against UK police databases, but these would not necessarily show a conviction from another country.""
    Perhaps they should crack on and put an agreement in place to do this to help us speed up getting rid of these undesirables.

    Oh, and it also doesn’t excuse the fact he drives around without a license, is involved in the cigarette trade and high street ‘vape’ shops. You can’t blame Brexit for that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,248
    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    Is death avoidable? Tell me more.
    Yes, these are premature deaths.

    Reading through the Amos report on maternity services, it is clear that one of the biggest issues is that British maternity units do not emply enough midwives, Obstetricians and Obstetric Anaesthetists to operates safe services.

    There are other issues including racism, poor teamworking, culture wars over "natural childbirth", dysfunctional management and antiquainted buildings. To be honest, none of this is surprising as it has been the case for decades and it was obvious to 21 year old me in my medical school training. No doubt similar in other areas such as Psychiatry too that have been neglected over the years.

    But instead of funding and addressing these issues lets bung Trump's friends in Big Pharma £45 billion over a decade in the hope that the crocodile eats us last.

    That comment about Big Pharma.

    Family member was in drug discovery and then drug marketing. When looking at pricing worldwide, there was a degree of flexibility for non-US sales as the companies knew they could command a premium on US sales which effectively subsidised the RoW. Call it a Pharma Dividend and like the US's Peace Dividend, it's now going.

    Post Trump world is going to be a lot more expensive for us, unfortunately.
    Big Pharma really hates Trump and Kennedy. For decades they’re spent billions lobbying Washington, only for a president and a heath secretary to tell them to their face that they’re ripping off Americans and need to stop it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,248
    edited 6:49AM
    So Ukraine is hitting oil refineries, today in Kstovo and Russia is hitting apartment blocks, today in Kyiv.

    https://x.com/nafovoyager/status/2072538676941234684

    Oh, and the Tsolov refinery is the second-largest producer of petrol in Russia. LOL.

    https://x.com/jayinkyiv/status/2072547326619500763

    Even on Russian TV they’re getting worried about having enough fuel for the harvest, because tractors can’t get diesel.

    https://x.com/jalle51/status/2072381369687101701
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 1,048
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro

    I notice that you didn't quote these paragraphs:

    "Since Brexit, the UK no longer has a data-sharing agreement with many countries in the EU, making it more difficult to check criminal and immigration records of asylum seekers, according to Lucy Morton of the Immigration Services Union.

    "If we were able to share databases, even if just with our nearest neighbours, with Germany, with Belgium, with Holland and France, say - then, yes, we'd know that they had a conviction for people smuggling," she said.

    Asylum seekers are fingerprinted on arrival in the UK and checked against UK police databases, but these would not necessarily show a conviction from another country.""
    Perhaps they should crack on and put an agreement in place to do this to help us speed up getting rid of these undesirables.

    Oh, and it also doesn’t excuse the fact he drives around without a license, is involved in the cigarette trade and high street ‘vape’ shops. You can’t blame Brexit for that.
    Doesn't that require us to accept ECJ oversight for any breaches of data laws which was a red invented by the Tories?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,176
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro

    I notice that you didn't quote these paragraphs:

    "Since Brexit, the UK no longer has a data-sharing agreement with many countries in the EU, making it more difficult to check criminal and immigration records of asylum seekers, according to Lucy Morton of the Immigration Services Union.

    "If we were able to share databases, even if just with our nearest neighbours, with Germany, with Belgium, with Holland and France, say - then, yes, we'd know that they had a conviction for people smuggling," she said.

    Asylum seekers are fingerprinted on arrival in the UK and checked against UK police databases, but these would not necessarily show a conviction from another country.""
    Perhaps they should crack on and put an agreement in place to do this to help us speed up getting rid of these undesirables.

    Oh, and it also doesn’t excuse the fact he drives around without a license, is involved in the cigarette trade and high street ‘vape’ shops. You can’t blame Brexit for that.
    That'll mostly be some other bits of populism.

    We don't want the police wasting time on driving offences, and we definitely don't want cameras... so how are we going to catch an unlicensed driver?

    We don't want councils to do anything but fund social care for those who need it, so Trading Standards are too emaciated to do much.

    Unfortunately, all of this around us is the direct consequence of what Mr and Mrs Voter (including me) have voted for.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,348
    boulay said:

    Brixian59 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    God Save the King / Queen is uninspiring
    Jerusalem is a great tune but all a bit Yorkshire innit?
    Land of Hope and Glory - rousing but hardly modern
    Rule Brittania - naff!
    Wonderwall - pub band pub song
    It's Coming home - ditto

    We need an ANTHEM....a proper anthemic song!

    A shame the best football song by a million miles one that perfectly encapsulates the peaks and troughs of life, the ultimate goal and the trials and tribulations along the way is a song originating in Scotland ....

    I’ve seen “A.ways look on the bright side of life suggested.”

    Personal choice if GSTK went would be “I vow to thee my country.” Beautiful music, strong message, good to belt out in a crowd.
    For an England anthem, Jerusalem.

    I vow to thee my country has the flaw that the lyrics suggest your country should be "all earthly things above" arguably that means before family, before the law etc
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,877

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    I don't think the words to Deutschland Uber Alles are especially offensive. It means Germany Over Everything, not Germany Over Everyone.
    Not quite. Remember for glorious millennia there was no Germany. There were German people speaking German in German states, but the unification into one country called Germany (or Deutschland in German) happened only in the late 19th Century. Deutschland Uber Alles was part of the unification process – it meant being part of Germany above and beyond being Prussian or Bavarian or whatever, and not that Germany sought to rule over the rest of Europe which is how we came to understand it after the First World War, and the Second World War, and...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,858
    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    Is death avoidable? Tell me more.
    Yes, these are premature deaths.

    Reading through the Amos report on maternity services, it is clear that one of the biggest issues is that British maternity units do not emply enough midwives, Obstetricians and Obstetric Anaesthetists to operates safe services.

    There are other issues including racism, poor teamworking, culture wars over "natural childbirth", dysfunctional management and antiquainted buildings. To be honest, none of this is surprising as it has been the case for decades and it was obvious to 21 year old me in my medical school training. No doubt similar in other areas such as Psychiatry too that have been neglected over the years.

    But instead of funding and addressing these issues lets bung Trump's friends in Big Pharma £45 billion over a decade in the hope that the crocodile eats us last.

    Doesn't sound good, at all.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,530
    Sandpit said:

    So Ukraine is hitting oil refineries, today in Kstovo and Russia is hitting apartment blocks, today in Kyiv.

    https://x.com/nafovoyager/status/2072538676941234684

    Oh, and the Tsolov refinery is the second-largest producer of petrol in Russia. LOL.

    https://x.com/jayinkyiv/status/2072547326619500763

    Even on Russian TV they’re getting worried about having enough fuel for the harvest, because tractors can’t get diesel.

    https://x.com/jalle51/status/2072381369687101701

    I must say the Russians (thousands of 'em) in Batumi all seemed in fine fettle. Brain drain, happy to be out of the country and escaping the clutches of Putin's press gangers? Or continuing to do fine in Russia and coming for a holiday to the beach? Hard to tell.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,877

    boulay said:

    Brixian59 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    God Save the King / Queen is uninspiring
    Jerusalem is a great tune but all a bit Yorkshire innit?
    Land of Hope and Glory - rousing but hardly modern
    Rule Brittania - naff!
    Wonderwall - pub band pub song
    It's Coming home - ditto

    We need an ANTHEM....a proper anthemic song!

    A shame the best football song by a million miles one that perfectly encapsulates the peaks and troughs of life, the ultimate goal and the trials and tribulations along the way is a song originating in Scotland ....

    I’ve seen “A.ways look on the bright side of life suggested.”

    Personal choice if GSTK went would be “I vow to thee my country.” Beautiful music, strong message, good to belt out in a crowd.
    For an England anthem, Jerusalem.

    I vow to thee my country has the flaw that the lyrics suggest your country should be "all earthly things above" arguably that means before family, before the law etc
    Not to mention "the love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice" which is a bit strong even for army recruitment adverts.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,530

    boulay said:

    Brixian59 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    God Save the King / Queen is uninspiring
    Jerusalem is a great tune but all a bit Yorkshire innit?
    Land of Hope and Glory - rousing but hardly modern
    Rule Brittania - naff!
    Wonderwall - pub band pub song
    It's Coming home - ditto

    We need an ANTHEM....a proper anthemic song!

    A shame the best football song by a million miles one that perfectly encapsulates the peaks and troughs of life, the ultimate goal and the trials and tribulations along the way is a song originating in Scotland ....

    I’ve seen “A.ways look on the bright side of life suggested.”

    Personal choice if GSTK went would be “I vow to thee my country.” Beautiful music, strong message, good to belt out in a crowd.
    For an England anthem, Jerusalem.

    I vow to thee my country has the flaw that the lyrics suggest your country should be "all earthly things above" arguably that means before family, before the law etc
    I vow to thee is also too Rugby World Cup theme these days. Jerusalem too public school and too England specific. Rule Britannia as others have said a little naff. And lyrically inaccurate. We don't rule the waves. Land of hope and glory hard to sing, as also noted. Essentially an orchestral piece.

    Maybe like the 4th plinth we should alternate the anthem every year or so.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,248
    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    So Ukraine is hitting oil refineries, today in Kstovo and Russia is hitting apartment blocks, today in Kyiv.

    https://x.com/nafovoyager/status/2072538676941234684

    Oh, and the Tsolov refinery is the second-largest producer of petrol in Russia. LOL.

    https://x.com/jayinkyiv/status/2072547326619500763

    Even on Russian TV they’re getting worried about having enough fuel for the harvest, because tractors can’t get diesel.

    https://x.com/jalle51/status/2072381369687101701

    I must say the Russians (thousands of 'em) in Batumi all seemed in fine fettle. Brain drain, happy to be out of the country and escaping the clutches of Putin's press gangers? Or continuing to do fine in Russia and coming for a holiday to the beach? Hard to tell.
    The Russians in Batumi, rather like the Russians I see in Dubai, are the top 1% wealthy ones who can afford to get out or wait to see what happens.

    Russians on the median salary of $500/month, on the other hand…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,440
    .
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,211

    Israel has outfoxed Iran (and Donald Trump)
    Netanyahu’s historic deal with Lebanon includes an agreement to dismantle Hezbollah. It has also shown Marco Rubio’s mettle

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/01/israel-has-outfoxed-iran-and-donald-trump/ (£££)

    I would take a huge dollop of salt before absorbing anything written by Jake Wallis Simons!
  • RattersRatters Posts: 2,075
    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    So Ukraine is hitting oil refineries, today in Kstovo and Russia is hitting apartment blocks, today in Kyiv.

    https://x.com/nafovoyager/status/2072538676941234684

    Oh, and the Tsolov refinery is the second-largest producer of petrol in Russia. LOL.

    https://x.com/jayinkyiv/status/2072547326619500763

    Even on Russian TV they’re getting worried about having enough fuel for the harvest, because tractors can’t get diesel.

    https://x.com/jalle51/status/2072381369687101701

    I must say the Russians (thousands of 'em) in Batumi all seemed in fine fettle. Brain drain, happy to be out of the country and escaping the clutches of Putin's press gangers? Or continuing to do fine in Russia and coming for a holiday to the beach? Hard to tell.
    Russia is in an unstable equilibrium.

    It has been selling sovereign wealth assets, gold reserves, using up weapon stockpiles and the lives of young men from more neglected regions. All of that provided it a buffer that could no doubt immunise much of the population from the war, at least in Moscow and St Petersburg.

    But the speed of the drain on its reserves is only going to get worse with Ukraine strikes on oil facilities, crude oil back down to $70 (minus Russian discount) etc.

    I can't predict what the result will be when the unstable equilibrium changes, nor when it happens, but I know for certain life in Russia isn't going to be the same 5 years from now
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,858
    In not so good news Russia is about to gain the city of Kostiantynivka, a key Ukrainian defence in the Donbas. So while Ukraine is making some advances in the south, it is very fragile and Ukraine needs more support.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kostiantynivka#Analysis
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,150
    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro

    Oh Jamal, you silly man. Could have kept quiet, but now you've just made yourself a news story and guaranteed a tap on the shoulder.

    The thirst for fame really does relieve people of their common sense sometimes.
    Sounds like just the sort of wealth creator that the transactional immigrationists would welcome. Some of that ‘good money’ will trickle down, right?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,525
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    I don't think the words to Deutschland Uber Alles are especially offensive. It means Germany Over Everything, not Germany Over Everyone.
    Germany over all, surely?
    Alles is a single word that covers all, everything, and sometimes everyone. Within the context of the song, the meaning is clearly to place Germany at the top of people's priority list, rather than for Germany to rule other nations.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,724
    FF43 said:

    In not so good news Russia is about to gain the city of Kostiantynivka, a key Ukrainian defence in the Donbas. So while Ukraine is making some advances in the south, it is very fragile and Ukraine needs more support.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kostiantynivka#Analysis

    They have been saying that for a year or so mind you
  • interestedinterested Posts: 29
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,525

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro

    Oh Jamal, you silly man. Could have kept quiet, but now you've just made yourself a news story and guaranteed a tap on the shoulder.

    The thirst for fame really does relieve people of their common sense sometimes.
    Sounds like just the sort of wealth creator that the transactional immigrationists would welcome. Some of that ‘good money’ will trickle down, right?
    I am trying to think what we can call the trickle down effect to prevent the notion of it being that money should trickle down of its own accord. The 'provide a product, service, place or charitable initiative that wealthy people want to buy into effect' is a bit long-winded.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,150

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    I don't think the words to Deutschland Uber Alles are especially offensive. It means Germany Over Everything, not Germany Over Everyone.
    Germany over all, surely?
    Alles is a single word that covers all, everything, and sometimes everyone. Within the context of the song, the meaning is clearly to place Germany at the top of people's priority list, rather than for Germany to rule other nations.
    Also uber translating as above rather than over gives a slightly more patriotic than triumphal meaning.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,315
    FF43 said:

    In not so good news Russia is about to gain the city of Kostiantynivka, a key Ukrainian defence in the Donbas. So while Ukraine is making some advances in the south, it is very fragile and Ukraine needs more support.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kostiantynivka#Analysis

    There are some interesting charts and analysis in this piece about Russian losses: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/7/1/800063979/community/the-trends-behind-russias/

    What we see is that in the early part of the war tanks were a major part of the losses but the emphasis now is very much on vehicles and Russian logistics. We also see that, having burned their way through a huge stockpile of tanks, Russian artillery is increasingly vulnerable. It is remarkable that the Russians have kept going as long as they have with this level of attrition. I have doubts that they will be able to sustain this if they cannot get ammunition, fuel and food to their front lines.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,496
    Roger said:

    Israel has outfoxed Iran (and Donald Trump)
    Netanyahu’s historic deal with Lebanon includes an agreement to dismantle Hezbollah. It has also shown Marco Rubio’s mettle

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/01/israel-has-outfoxed-iran-and-donald-trump/ (£££)

    I would take a huge dollop of salt before absorbing anything written by Jake Wallis Simons!
    There was a report saying the US will put troops in to monitor breaches of the ceasefire on either side. Can’t see that working for long.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,367

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/81/health-and-social-care-committee/news/209309/black-women-still-ignored-in-maternity-care-say-mps/

    Black women are 2.3 times more likely to die in pregnancy, childbirth, or the postnatal period than White women
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,248
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    In not so good news Russia is about to gain the city of Kostiantynivka, a key Ukrainian defence in the Donbas. So while Ukraine is making some advances in the south, it is very fragile and Ukraine needs more support.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kostiantynivka#Analysis

    There are some interesting charts and analysis in this piece about Russian losses: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/7/1/800063979/community/the-trends-behind-russias/

    What we see is that in the early part of the war tanks were a major part of the losses but the emphasis now is very much on vehicles and Russian logistics. We also see that, having burned their way through a huge stockpile of tanks, Russian artillery is increasingly vulnerable. It is remarkable that the Russians have kept going as long as they have with this level of attrition. I have doubts that they will be able to sustain this if they cannot get ammunition, fuel and food to their front lines.
    The Ukranians usually manage to find a couple of tanks a day, but the Russians have basically none left now. The whole Soviet tank stockpile has gone, more than 10,000 of them!

    They’re hitting somewhere around 500 vehicles a day at the moment, mostly unarmoured logistics trucks moving weapons and fuel, easily taken out by a drone. Ukraine now has fire control on the whole of their occupied territory, the Russians have no supply routes left and their army is going to be slowly starved out as is happening in Crimea.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,352
    edited 7:39AM

    NEW THREAD

  • interestedinterested Posts: 29

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/81/health-and-social-care-committee/news/209309/black-women-still-ignored-in-maternity-care-say-mps/

    Black women are 2.3 times more likely to die in pregnancy, childbirth, or the postnatal period than White women
    Ok but that doesn’t necessarily mean there is racism . There could be a number of reasons for that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,046
    a

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    You are assuming that non-white people can’t be racist and/or implement policies and attitudes that are racist.

    I worked for (consultancy client) a manger of Indian origin. Who was racist towards people of *Indian origin*. He treated them as peasants on his estate in a Bollywood movie where he played the landlord - he assumed that all Indian IT workers were of the lowest possible status. And could be bullied and abused.
  • interestedinterested Posts: 29

    a

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    You are assuming that non-white people can’t be racist and/or implement policies and attitudes that are racist.

    I worked for (consultancy client) a manger of Indian origin. Who was racist towards people of *Indian origin*. He treated them as peasants on his estate in a Bollywood movie where he played the landlord - he assumed that all Indian IT workers were of the lowest possible status. And could be bullied and abused.
    Take your point but I still find it difficult to believe the people I encounter in the NHS are racist. It’s almost contrary to there ethos.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,604
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    I couldn't get invested in England playing football before today. But I picked my daughter up earlier from a friend of hers whose mother said she couldn't stand watching England play because of all the flags. When I looked less than instantly comprehending, she elaborated that they're probably all Reform voters.
    This struck me as such an arse-clenchingly sub-Comment-is-Free everything-is-racist view that I have now become quite keen on England staying in this thing a bit longer.
    I mean - ours aren't the only fans whi have flags, surely?

    She has it completely bottom about face. A World Cup run will bring people of all races together.
    The more people like her despise the England flag the more the right will try to claim it. It's pathetic. Just like Emily Thornberry. For years pubs could get an extension for St Patrick's but not St George's. Too many despise the English identity.
    Always the same story: FRITLF, the far right is the left's fault.

    Why does this narrative only go one way? Why are the offhand comments of a lefty at the school gate such a trigger, yet the thuggish behaviour of extremists on the right isn't going to create a terrifying backlash?

    Why the double standards? Tommy and friends behave how they want and we need to respect them and avoid provocation; but lefty woman sounds off about flags and she's going to reap the whirlwind.

    This is what the far right does: rule by fear. Don't provoke them. Ooh no. Or else.
    My history's a little hazy, Cassius, but didn't thr BNP and NF use the Union flag and NOT the St George's cross?
    They did, but back then they had little or no influence over politics. Things change.

    I am quite keen on the cross of St George. Cross flags look good (offset is better). But it's impossible to deny the connotations the flag now has, just as it's impossible to ignore the undercurrents when you see a Palestine flag. Political semiotics.

    If a school mum is intimidated by it, isn't that a problem we need to address, rather than dismiss?
    We should address it by reasonable people reclaiming the imagery. It can only become a shibboleth of the far right if everyone else abandons it. They can have their crappy swastikas, akd they can argue with the far left over the clenched fist. But the flag is mine and yours and kinabalu's. We should cherish it as people in other nations cherish theirs. We may have a crappy national anthem but our flag is actually quite good.
    The national anthem is fine. Upper tier in world terms.
    It is a dirge. And it isn't even an English anthem. Get rid.

    Vindaloo would fire up the lads.
    God save … is awful. And in ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ we have a tune to hand that would trump the Marseillaise, and written by our greatest composer to boot. Use it ffs.
    Land of Hope and Glory is better than God Save the [Monarch].

    Jerusalem, like The Star Spangled Banner, is basically impossible to sing.
    Both are well within my vocal range.
    I can't manage Land of Hope and Glory in either my tenor or counter tenor ranges. It wasn't written for voice.

    Jerusalem was, but it does require a decent range and these days people aren't taught to sing properly with their head voice for the high notes.

    As a tenor it's fine (actually for me it's the low B on desire that is too low) but for a proper bass or alto the E is a noyt high but the range should fit most people's voices
    Land of Hope and Glory is only a tone higher (F) at the top of the range, which is well within the tenor range (but a lot of people struggle to reach).
    I'm a bass/baritone and have a fairly comfortable two and a half octave range.

    The Star Spangled Banner has a range which is wider still, and wider...
    The Star Spangled Banner breaks into We Wish You a Merry Christmas towards the end. Land of Hope and Glory has problematic lyrics now that colonialism is frowned upon.
    Not for me it doesn't.
    I'm good with Land of Hope and Glory. It's a better tune than God Save the [Monarch], and the words are less offensive than -say- "Germany uber alles".

    Mind you, "which anthem is least embarrassing?" is a low bar all round.
    “Wider still and wider shall your bounds be set. God who made you mighty, make you mightier yet?”

    Quite imperialistic, no?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,046

    a

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    You are assuming that non-white people can’t be racist and/or implement policies and attitudes that are racist.

    I worked for (consultancy client) a manger of Indian origin. Who was racist towards people of *Indian origin*. He treated them as peasants on his estate in a Bollywood movie where he played the landlord - he assumed that all Indian IT workers were of the lowest possible status. And could be bullied and abused.
    Take your point but I still find it difficult to believe the people I encounter in the NHS are racist. It’s almost contrary to there ethos.
    People hide behaviour to match the public culture around them.

    See the brutal horrors of sexual offences that are now being publicly exposed, for example.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,046

    a

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    You are assuming that non-white people can’t be racist and/or implement policies and attitudes that are racist.

    I worked for (consultancy client) a manger of Indian origin. Who was racist towards people of *Indian origin*. He treated them as peasants on his estate in a Bollywood movie where he played the landlord - he assumed that all Indian IT workers were of the lowest possible status. And could be bullied and abused.
    Take your point but I still find it difficult to believe the people I encounter in the NHS are racist. It’s almost contrary to there ethos.
    People hide behaviour to match the public culture around them.

    See the brutal horrors of sexual offences that are now being publicly exposed, for example.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,604

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Here’s a story to restore your faith in the system


    “ People smuggler convicted in France found by BBC living in UK and seeking asylum”


    He seems to be quite brazen about his lifestyle too.


    “ Jamal said he was now based in Leicester, and boasted: "We know everyone in this city, this city is ours."
    He was making "good money", he continued, and told our contact there was work to be had "moving cigarettes" from a warehouse.
    Jamal also admitted driving a car without a licence, but said he was not worried about being investigated or caught.
    "No-one touches us here," he said. "Even the police won't stop you."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clye9zn0y1ro

    I notice that you didn't quote these paragraphs:

    "Since Brexit, the UK no longer has a data-sharing agreement with many countries in the EU, making it more difficult to check criminal and immigration records of asylum seekers, according to Lucy Morton of the Immigration Services Union.

    "If we were able to share databases, even if just with our nearest neighbours, with Germany, with Belgium, with Holland and France, say - then, yes, we'd know that they had a conviction for people smuggling," she said.

    Asylum seekers are fingerprinted on arrival in the UK and checked against UK police databases, but these would not necessarily show a conviction from another country.""
    Perhaps they should crack on and put an agreement in place to do this to help us speed up getting rid of these undesirables.

    Oh, and it also doesn’t excuse the fact he drives around without a license, is involved in the cigarette trade and high street ‘vape’ shops. You can’t blame Brexit for that.
    Doesn't that require us to accept ECJ oversight for any breaches of data laws which was a red invented by the Tories?
    And the usual solution is to have a neutral legal venue . Just because the EU is unreasonable it doesn’t mean we should fold
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,724

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/81/health-and-social-care-committee/news/209309/black-women-still-ignored-in-maternity-care-say-mps/

    Black women are 2.3 times more likely to die in pregnancy, childbirth, or the postnatal period than White women
    How can that be equated to racism
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,046
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The NHS will have to divert £45bn from essential services to pay for new medicines under the terms of the UK-US trade deal agreed last December, leading to more than 200,000 avoidable deaths of patients, analysis has found.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/us-uk-drug-deal-could-result-in-229000-excess-deaths-in-england-analysis-suggests

    The Guardian's link to the BMJ is broken, so...

    The headline seems more accurate than the quoted text.

    ..could result in 229,000 excess deaths in England, analysis suggests..

    Will have to read the BMJ article to say how plausible the analysis is.
    I'll try later.
    I asked Claude (hardly a raging right winger) to analyse it the BMJ piece. It's conclusion was: It reads as an advocacy piece marshalling a coherent economic argument rather than a dispassionate empirical analysis.
    Taking £4.5 billion a year from other areas of the NHS to fund the deal with Trump surely has significant opportunity cost.

    That much is obvious even to AI, I would hope.
    I'll read it in detail later, but a couple of comments.

    The calculated cost is very heavily back end loaded towards the end of the ten years, and that carries with it a significant amount of uncertainty. I'm not trying to pretend it won't cost us, as it will, but there's a good reason for the "could" in the headline.

    The other point is, what is the counterfactual if we'd said no ?
    That would have been far from cost free, both directly to UK industry, and indirectly to (and possible directly too) to the Exchequer.
    Is that included in the BMJ analysis ?

    Finally, the NHS had an unusually good deal with US pharma. It probably wasn't sustainable on an ongoing basis anyway.
    Is there really racism in the NHS?

    A disproportionate proportion of the staff are from racial minorities.

    Can’t help questioning when a black politician says there is racism. Doesn’t the in with my perception.
    https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/81/health-and-social-care-committee/news/209309/black-women-still-ignored-in-maternity-care-say-mps/

    Black women are 2.3 times more likely to die in pregnancy, childbirth, or the postnatal period than White women
    How can that be equated to racism
    It’s too large a difference to be explained by medical reasons.

    What else is there?
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