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  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,720
    edited 3:24PM
    Speaking of interesting flights, what the hell is this Russian Air Force Cargo Plane doing over the Med?

    https://www.flightradar24.com/RFF802/3ef4c0b2
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,516
    edited 3:22PM
    To answer the question upthread about who would be preferred out of the Tories and Reform, I believe a Refcon coalition is the likeliest outcome, and I would prefer it to be a Reform-led coalition. My preference list (within the narrow options presented) is:
    1. Reform-led Refcon
    2. Reform maj
    3. Tory-led Refcon
    4. Tory maj

    Kemi is fond of picking fights, but there's also a bit of weakness and willingness to go with the flow there, as shown by her patchy Ministerial record. A Tory maj scenario would be better than what we have now, but arrogance, complacency, backstabbing briefings, shadowy cabals and Lib Dems in blue rosettes would soon rear their ugly heads and things would diminish fairly rapidly.

    Tories but needing Reform would treat Reform like the hired help, and the same as the above would be true but less so.

    Reform maj would have good intentions but very little experience of the system.

    Ref-led Refcon has the experience of the Tories, but yoked to the energy of Reform.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,634

    To answer the question upthread about who would be preferred out of the Tories and Reform, I believe a Refcon coalition is the likeliest outcome, and I would prefer it to be a Reform-led coalition. My preference list (within the narrow options presented) is:
    1. Reform-led Refcon
    2. Reform maj
    3. Tory-led Refcon
    4. Tory maj

    Kemi is fond of picking fights, but there's also a bit of weakness and willingness to go with the flow there, as shown by her patchy Ministerial record. A Tory maj scenario would be better than what we have now, but arrogance, complacency, backstabbing briefings, shadowy cabals and Lib Dems in blue rosettes would soon rear their ugly heads and things would diminish fairly rapidly.

    Tories but needing Reform would treat Reform like the hired help, and the same as the above would be true but less so.

    Reform maj would have good intentions but very little experience of the system.

    Ref-led Refcon has the experience of the Tories, but yoked to the energy of Reform.

    What is the energy of Reform? Energy to do what? Copy Donald Trump at every opportunity?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,986
    Brixian59 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    You should get out more
    I'd rather watch paint dry than watch snooker
    American Football is for drug addled freaks
    Baseball is Rounders

    The one US Sport you have to watch to appreciate live is Basketball. The Knicks at MSG in the top tier full house is an incredible iccssion

    Best ball sports for me
    Soccer in a full atmospheric older stadium not a prawn sandwich empirium
    Rugby Union in Cardiff
    Cricket Test Cricket
    Tennis not what it was

    Athletics major events very entertaining more so indoors

    Motor sports

    F1 has become a joke
    Same engine manufacturer formulas more entertaining
    Moto GP
    Speedway Racing on occasions decent

    Cycling Classics very very underrated, Tour De France a must see

    Downhill Alpine best sport if all in my ipinion
    Biathlon live well worth a try...

    Horse Racing Flat boring NH far better
    Snooker's fascinating, if only for the expressions on the faces of those forced to sit and watch as their opponent clears the table.
    Rugby league, although I wish they'd sort out the nonsenses that are the scrums.

    Agree about Test Cricket, although County Cricket, at the ground, can be highly enjoyable.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    LD voters are mostly Nimbys now so they won’t be the party of mass house building. The Greens are already the party of marijuana legalisation and net zero, Labour under Ed Miliband also the latter and for solar panels everywhere
    The Greens are now the River to the Sea party.
    Excuse me:

    They're the River to the Sea, pro-Trans Rights, Party.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,704
    CatMan said:

    Speaking of interesting flights, what the hell is this Russian Air Force Cargo Plane doing over the Med?

    https://www.flightradar24.com/RFF802/3ef4c0b2

    Brave, flying that close to Lebanon!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,516

    To answer the question upthread about who would be preferred out of the Tories and Reform, I believe a Refcon coalition is the likeliest outcome, and I would prefer it to be a Reform-led coalition. My preference list (within the narrow options presented) is:
    1. Reform-led Refcon
    2. Reform maj
    3. Tory-led Refcon
    4. Tory maj

    Kemi is fond of picking fights, but there's also a bit of weakness and willingness to go with the flow there, as shown by her patchy Ministerial record. A Tory maj scenario would be better than what we have now, but arrogance, complacency, backstabbing briefings, shadowy cabals and Lib Dems in blue rosettes would soon rear their ugly heads and things would diminish fairly rapidly.

    Tories but needing Reform would treat Reform like the hired help, and the same as the above would be true but less so.

    Reform maj would have good intentions but very little experience of the system.

    Ref-led Refcon has the experience of the Tories, but yoked to the energy of Reform.

    What is the energy of Reform? Energy to do what? Copy Donald Trump at every opportunity?
    I want a party that restores the key pillars of the British constitution, eliminates needless regulation and red tape and the quangocracy that underpins it, rescues key industries like virgin steelmaking (there is no 'Thatcherite' laissez faire way to do this and it's specious of the Tories to pretend there is), legalises fracking and provides a regulatory environment where it can flourish, unleashes the North Sea and SMRs, stands up to Chinese domination whilst we still can, and pursues the national interest vigorously at every opportunity. My preference would be for the Tories to do all this, but I don't trust them to.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,257
    CatMan said:

    Speaking of interesting flights, what the hell is this Russian Air Force Cargo Plane doing over the Med?

    https://www.flightradar24.com/RFF802/3ef4c0b2

    Flying?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    Some sports are better in person... some on TV.

    American Football is pretty rubbish in person. Basketball, by contrast, is amazing in person because you are so near the action. You really feel the physicality of the players, because -even in average seats- you're usually no more than 10 or 12 meters from the court.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,847

    Sean_F said:

    Talk here of Reform's demise is wishcasting:

    1. Last year, Reform, Conservatives, and Labour were close to level-pegging. Now, Reform are 7-8% clear of them. These are FPTP elections, not PR. What matters, is beating your main rival, not what your vote share is overall.

    2. Most seats being contested were last fought in 2022. The Conservatives were 29% clear of Reform, then, and Labour 34% clear. Now, they're running well behind them.

    3. Local by elections point to a big win for Reform. March's contests saw:

    Reform 6,145 votes (29.3%) 5 seats (+4)

    Conservatives 4,233 (20.3%) 4 seats (+1)

    Labour 2,744, (13.1%) 1 seat, (-2)

    Lib Dems, 3,710 (17.7%) 2 seats (-2)

    Green Party 3,159 (15.1%) 3 seats (+2)

    Independents lost 3 seats.

    One should assume that even if Steven Fisher is wrong, the number of gains for Reform will be clear of 1,200, and bet accordingly.

    In the last 10 polls/fortnight before the 2025 local Elections Reform were, on average, just over 5 % points ahead of the Tories and on an increasing support trend.
    In the past 10 polls Reform are on average 7% points ahead of the Tories and are on a decreasing support trend
    They are better off against Labour than 2025 (8% ahead versus 3% ahead over same 10 polls)

    But as 2025 showed there is not a direct correlation between polling and LE vote, Reform outpolled anything they had ever achieved in an opinion poll. Will they do the same with support declining? Will the Tory core stay home having seem what happened in 2025? What effect a relative weak area like London?

    Theyll make 4 figure gains probably, but it wont look anywhere near as uniquely impresive as 2025
    There are *a lot* of seats, in Met Boroughs and Unitary authorities, outside London, that are like Brumby, where the Labour and Conservative votes cratered on Thursday. There are 3,400 seats being fought outside London, and I think we should expect Reform to win one third to 40% of them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    Sean_F said:

    Talk here of Reform's demise is wishcasting:

    1. Last year, Reform, Conservatives, and Labour were close to level-pegging. Now, Reform are 7-8% clear of them. These are FPTP elections, not PR. What matters, is beating your main rival, not what your vote share is overall.

    2. Most seats being contested were last fought in 2022. The Conservatives were 29% clear of Reform, then, and Labour 34% clear. Now, they're running well behind them.

    3. Local by elections point to a big win for Reform. March's contests saw:

    Reform 6,145 votes (29.3%) 5 seats (+4)

    Conservatives 4,233 (20.3%) 4 seats (+1)

    Labour 2,744, (13.1%) 1 seat, (-2)

    Lib Dems, 3,710 (17.7%) 2 seats (-2)

    Green Party 3,159 (15.1%) 3 seats (+2)

    Independents lost 3 seats.

    One should assume that even if Steven Fisher is wrong, the number of gains for Reform will be clear of 1,200, and bet accordingly.

    While that's true, it's also true that Reform's position in opinion polls has come back quite sharply. On the Wikipedia moving average chart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election), they've dropped around five percentage points from above 30% to 25-26%.
  • Reform will do extremely well in the May locals and will get a polling boost.

    But I still maintain they are not strong enough at this stage to win a majority.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,720
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    Speaking of interesting flights, what the hell is this Russian Air Force Cargo Plane doing over the Med?

    https://www.flightradar24.com/RFF802/3ef4c0b2

    Flying?
    Well it should be doing it over Russia then!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,634

    To answer the question upthread about who would be preferred out of the Tories and Reform, I believe a Refcon coalition is the likeliest outcome, and I would prefer it to be a Reform-led coalition. My preference list (within the narrow options presented) is:
    1. Reform-led Refcon
    2. Reform maj
    3. Tory-led Refcon
    4. Tory maj

    Kemi is fond of picking fights, but there's also a bit of weakness and willingness to go with the flow there, as shown by her patchy Ministerial record. A Tory maj scenario would be better than what we have now, but arrogance, complacency, backstabbing briefings, shadowy cabals and Lib Dems in blue rosettes would soon rear their ugly heads and things would diminish fairly rapidly.

    Tories but needing Reform would treat Reform like the hired help, and the same as the above would be true but less so.

    Reform maj would have good intentions but very little experience of the system.

    Ref-led Refcon has the experience of the Tories, but yoked to the energy of Reform.

    What is the energy of Reform? Energy to do what? Copy Donald Trump at every opportunity?
    I want a party that restores the key pillars of the British constitution, eliminates needless regulation and red tape and the quangocracy that underpins it, rescues key industries like virgin steelmaking (there is no 'Thatcherite' laissez faire way to do this and it's specious of the Tories to pretend there is), legalises fracking and provides a regulatory environment where it can flourish, unleashes the North Sea and SMRs, stands up to Chinese domination whilst we still can, and pursues the national interest vigorously at every opportunity. My preference would be for the Tories to do all this, but I don't trust them to.
    That doesn't appear to fit Reform UK that well. Reform UK favour reform and change to the constitution,e.g. introducing PR, creating a new Bill of Rights, abolishing the House of Lords, and replacing civil servants with political appointees. Fracking was not mentioned in their 2024 manifesto, although they do like SMRs. I don't hear Reform talking about China much (zero mentions in the 2024 manifesto) and how much they would pursue the national interest is questionable, given we've seen Reform politicians being bought by Russia. Reform's priorities are around immigration, deportations, restricting Islam and reversing smoking laws.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,140
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    Some sports are better in person... some on TV.

    American Football is pretty rubbish in person. Basketball, by contrast, is amazing in person because you are so near the action. You really feel the physicality of the players, because -even in average seats- you're usually no more than 10 or 12 meters from the court.
    Cricket is far easier to follow on your telly than in person, particularly if you are sat square of the wicket. Yet a day at the cricket is one of my biggest pleasures. The joy of being there more than compensates for the worse view.
    Golf is even harder to watch in person - you can only ever see 1/18th of the action at most. And yet being there is a joy.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,698
    I'm a big fan of these two women. I'm not sure everyone will know their targets though Eric Kirk is certainly in the firing line. Anyway i enjoy their humanity and enthusiasm.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea1c8WwEfNk
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    edited 3:47PM

    To answer the question upthread about who would be preferred out of the Tories and Reform, I believe a Refcon coalition is the likeliest outcome, and I would prefer it to be a Reform-led coalition. My preference list (within the narrow options presented) is:
    1. Reform-led Refcon
    2. Reform maj
    3. Tory-led Refcon
    4. Tory maj

    Kemi is fond of picking fights, but there's also a bit of weakness and willingness to go with the flow there, as shown by her patchy Ministerial record. A Tory maj scenario would be better than what we have now, but arrogance, complacency, backstabbing briefings, shadowy cabals and Lib Dems in blue rosettes would soon rear their ugly heads and things would diminish fairly rapidly.

    Tories but needing Reform would treat Reform like the hired help, and the same as the above would be true but less so.

    Reform maj would have good intentions but very little experience of the system.

    Ref-led Refcon has the experience of the Tories, but yoked to the energy of Reform.

    What is the energy of Reform? Energy to do what? Copy Donald Trump at every opportunity?
    I want a party that restores the key pillars of the British constitution, eliminates needless regulation and red tape and the quangocracy that underpins it, rescues key industries like virgin steelmaking (there is no 'Thatcherite' laissez faire way to do this and it's specious of the Tories to pretend there is), legalises fracking and provides a regulatory environment where it can flourish, unleashes the North Sea and SMRs, stands up to Chinese domination whilst we still can, and pursues the national interest vigorously at every opportunity. My preference would be for the Tories to do all this, but I don't trust them to.
    I thought red tape and regulation was one of the key pillars of the British constitution, going all the way back to the Assize of Bread and Ale from 1266.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    Some sports are better in person... some on TV.

    American Football is pretty rubbish in person. Basketball, by contrast, is amazing in person because you are so near the action. You really feel the physicality of the players, because -even in average seats- you're usually no more than 10 or 12 meters from the court.
    Cricket is far easier to follow on your telly than in person, particularly if you are sat square of the wicket. Yet a day at the cricket is one of my biggest pleasures. The joy of being there more than compensates for the worse view.
    Golf is even harder to watch in person - you can only ever see 1/18th of the action at most. And yet being there is a joy.
    I will only go to a cricket game if I can be behind the stumps. Otherwise you simnply have no idea what's going on.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,091

    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2026 for a while.

    I agree. There is no mechanism by which he can be ejected, and no self-awareness by which he will resign.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,053
    @WillHayCardiff

    Reform candidate for Swansea in the upcoming Welsh elections steps down.

    Very strong statement.

    "Politics is a dirty game, but Reform has sunk deep into the sewer when it should have been a beacon of decency."

    This tallies with what many long-term Reform members have been telling me for some time regarding frustration at what they see as an increasingly dictatorial style from Farage and those close to him.

    These are the people Reform are going to need to be out knocking doors over the next six weeks.

    https://x.com/WillHayCardiff/status/2037912746260336749?s=20
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,091

    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.

    I don't know the answer to this question, but...is it? I mean if two different people asked the same question simultaneously from two nearby terminals, would they get a different answer back or the same?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,257
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    Some sports are better in person... some on TV.

    American Football is pretty rubbish in person. Basketball, by contrast, is amazing in person because you are so near the action. You really feel the physicality of the players, because -even in average seats- you're usually no more than 10 or 12 meters from the court.
    Cricket is far easier to follow on your telly than in person, particularly if you are sat square of the wicket. Yet a day at the cricket is one of my biggest pleasures. The joy of being there more than compensates for the worse view.
    Golf is even harder to watch in person - you can only ever see 1/18th of the action at most. And yet being there is a joy.
    I will only go to a cricket game if I can be behind the stumps. Otherwise you simnply have no idea what's going on.
    That's a fearful thing to say. I'll go so far as to say you are wicket.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,346
    Scott_xP said:

    @WillHayCardiff

    Reform candidate for Swansea in the upcoming Welsh elections steps down.

    Very strong statement.

    "Politics is a dirty game, but Reform has sunk deep into the sewer when it should have been a beacon of decency."

    This tallies with what many long-term Reform members have been telling me for some time regarding frustration at what they see as an increasingly dictatorial style from Farage and those close to him.

    These are the people Reform are going to need to be out knocking doors over the next six weeks.

    https://x.com/WillHayCardiff/status/2037912746260336749?s=20

    Will Hay !
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,698
    Roger said:

    I'm a big fan of these two women. I'm not sure everyone will know their targets though Eric Kirk is certainly in the firing line. Anyway i enjoy their humanity and enthusiasm.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea1c8WwEfNk

    Sorry should be Erica!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Talk here of Reform's demise is wishcasting:

    1. Last year, Reform, Conservatives, and Labour were close to level-pegging. Now, Reform are 7-8% clear of them. These are FPTP elections, not PR. What matters, is beating your main rival, not what your vote share is overall.

    2. Most seats being contested were last fought in 2022. The Conservatives were 29% clear of Reform, then, and Labour 34% clear. Now, they're running well behind them.

    3. Local by elections point to a big win for Reform. March's contests saw:

    Reform 6,145 votes (29.3%) 5 seats (+4)

    Conservatives 4,233 (20.3%) 4 seats (+1)

    Labour 2,744, (13.1%) 1 seat, (-2)

    Lib Dems, 3,710 (17.7%) 2 seats (-2)

    Green Party 3,159 (15.1%) 3 seats (+2)

    Independents lost 3 seats.

    One should assume that even if Steven Fisher is wrong, the number of gains for Reform will be clear of 1,200, and bet accordingly.

    In the last 10 polls/fortnight before the 2025 local Elections Reform were, on average, just over 5 % points ahead of the Tories and on an increasing support trend.
    In the past 10 polls Reform are on average 7% points ahead of the Tories and are on a decreasing support trend
    They are better off against Labour than 2025 (8% ahead versus 3% ahead over same 10 polls)

    But as 2025 showed there is not a direct correlation between polling and LE vote, Reform outpolled anything they had ever achieved in an opinion poll. Will they do the same with support declining? Will the Tory core stay home having seem what happened in 2025? What effect a relative weak area like London?

    Theyll make 4 figure gains probably, but it wont look anywhere near as uniquely impresive as 2025
    There are *a lot* of seats, in Met Boroughs and Unitary authorities, outside London, that are like Brumby, where the Labour and Conservative votes cratered on Thursday. There are 3,400 seats being fought outside London, and I think we should expect Reform to win one third to 40% of them.
    Yes, they'll win a lot of seats. But 33% outside London plus maybe 150 in London will see them just about come first on wards won overall. Thats a far less dominant performance than 2025, which was my point.
    And the worse Labour do, the more the Tories will to a certain extent ameliorate their own poor night picking up some gains imo rather than suffering an equal decline to Labour as Fisher suggests
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,634
    .
    viewcode said:


    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.

    I don't know the answer to this question, but...is it? I mean if two different people asked the same question simultaneously from two nearby terminals, would they get a different answer back or the same?
    They could get different answers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    viewcode said:


    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.

    I don't know the answer to this question, but...is it? I mean if two different people asked the same question simultaneously from two nearby terminals, would they get a different answer back or the same?
    They will get slightly different answers, because LLMs insert randomness via "temperature".

  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,413
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @WillHayCardiff

    Reform candidate for Swansea in the upcoming Welsh elections steps down.

    Very strong statement.

    "Politics is a dirty game, but Reform has sunk deep into the sewer when it should have been a beacon of decency."

    This tallies with what many long-term Reform members have been telling me for some time regarding frustration at what they see as an increasingly dictatorial style from Farage and those close to him.

    These are the people Reform are going to need to be out knocking doors over the next six weeks.

    https://x.com/WillHayCardiff/status/2037912746260336749?s=20

    Will Hay !
    Isn't that Jack Straw's son?

    I'll get my coat...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,127
    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    Surely any sport is exciting if you are invested in the result? I'm not a sports fan, I enjoy watching my son's U17 team playing football on a Sunday and I can get into international football tournaments and that's about it. I used to enjoy cricket but have lost interest in it as I've got older. Snooker was good in the 1980s. Cars driving round in circles, posh versions of football and anthing played primarily by Americans leave me cold. I have a deep loathing for golf having grown up in St Andrews.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,410
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    Some sports are better in person... some on TV.

    American Football is pretty rubbish in person. Basketball, by contrast, is amazing in person because you are so near the action. You really feel the physicality of the players, because -even in average seats- you're usually no more than 10 or 12 meters from the court.
    I love NFL nearly as much as I love football and I fucking love football. However, I think you can only truly appreciate it with a deep understanding of the tactics and the immensely complex meta-game of the salary cap and draft system.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,054
    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    If Labour came back to win most seats though, holding 120 seats with maybe a couple of Tory gains from Labour in West London and patches of the home counties might be enough for the Tories to keep second, just ahead of Reform
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,489
    An innovative use of AI:

    https://x.com/franakviacorka/status/2037840993446195436

    A Belarusian blogger used AI to fake a scene of people with white-red-white flags in central Minsk—and sent it to police.
    Within minutes, three armed police vehicles rushed to the location. Of course, no one was there. Officers kept searching imaginary dissent.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,873
    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    Yes, I'm still on board but deeply unenthusiastic because the party is just so meh.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,437
    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,431
    edited 4:18PM
    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I'm trying to think of various proxies for 'propensity to vote Green'.

    So far I've come up with:

    - more urban seat
    - seats where LDs are not 2nd
    - higher public sector employment rates
    - younger demographic

    In short, they're going to destroy Labour in the cities, the uni towns, and probably take enough of their votes in the SE coastal towns to deprive them of a route to being the clear opposition.

    I really could see something like horrendous like

    Ref: 250
    Lab: 95
    Con: 95
    Green: 75
    LD: 55
    SNP: 35
    Others: 45
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,915
    viewcode said:


    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.

    I don't know the answer to this question, but...is it? I mean if two different people asked the same question simultaneously from two nearby terminals, would they get a different answer back or the same?
    Maybe the same answer, maybe not. Maybe not.

    The point of the discussion about the books is that it is possible to get the LLMs to kick out quite accurate chunks of books. With a small amount of extra work, re-assemble the books. By using multiple, overlapping chunks, the accuracy is much improved.

    For extra fun, they have also revealed that pirate copies of books were used to train the LLM in the first place.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,127
    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    Reform is essentially the political wing of private equity. It's not a real party.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,771
    viewcode said:

    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2026 for a while.

    I agree. There is no mechanism by which he can be ejected, and no self-awareness by which he will resign.
    I think he'll survive the year too however there is an ejection mechanism. 81 Labour MPs saying in writing that they want a specific person to replace him triggers a contest.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,091
    edited 4:23PM

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    Yes, I'm still on board but deeply unenthusiastic because the party is just so meh.
    As I keep saying, the reluctance of the Lib Dems to do anything is understandable but weird, and might come back to bite them. As the by-elections this week showed, they aren't the anti-Tory anti-Reform votedump they were, and the Greens are eating their lunch. Being moderately moderate in moderation (do nothing and do it as much as possible) may sound good in theory, but the foundations are being eaten away...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,437

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    Reform is essentially the political wing of private equity. It's not a real party.
    I expect many Reform voters aren’t even aware of this. The media have never even brought this issue up . I have little confidence they’ll even bother in the run up to the next GE . They’re too busy telling everyone they’re a government in waiting .
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,091

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @WillHayCardiff

    Reform candidate for Swansea in the upcoming Welsh elections steps down.

    Very strong statement.

    "Politics is a dirty game, but Reform has sunk deep into the sewer when it should have been a beacon of decency."

    This tallies with what many long-term Reform members have been telling me for some time regarding frustration at what they see as an increasingly dictatorial style from Farage and those close to him.

    These are the people Reform are going to need to be out knocking doors over the next six weeks.

    https://x.com/WillHayCardiff/status/2037912746260336749?s=20

    Will Hay !
    Isn't that Jack Straw's son?

    I'll get my coat...
    No, it's Tim Bale's kid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,943
    Scott_xP said:

    @WillHayCardiff

    Reform candidate for Swansea in the upcoming Welsh elections steps down.

    Very strong statement.

    "Politics is a dirty game, but Reform has sunk deep into the sewer when it should have been a beacon of decency."

    This tallies with what many long-term Reform members have been telling me for some time regarding frustration at what they see as an increasingly dictatorial style from Farage and those close to him.

    These are the people Reform are going to need to be out knocking doors over the next six weeks.

    https://x.com/WillHayCardiff/status/2037912746260336749?s=20

    There is an interesting insight buried in there: his claim that too many of the candidates are ex-Tories.

    This lies at the heart of Farage's monomania: destroying the Tories. It is why he wil take in any old defector, no matter how much that taints Reform. He is not interested in appealing to ex-Labour voters. The Tories have slighted him - and must pay for it with their very existence.

    As Reform slide down the polls, the idea of either doing any deal with the other will crash and burn. Which will make it all the easier for Kemi to be believed when she goes into the next election saying "No deals".
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    edited 4:26PM
    Reform in London.
    There have been 10 by elections in London since LE 25. Reform have won one in Bromley by 5%. This was near the apex of their polling and the nadir of the second placed Tories (i expect Bromley Common to be a toss up this time)
    Theyve been nowhere close to winning any others, coming second once in Barnet but 17% back.
    They will make gains but bear the above in mind when setting your own expectations of the overall picture (1800 of the 5200 wards are in London)
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,437
    edited 4:27PM

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    The mechanism is used for the government. And you won’t get Reform MPs voting to bring their own government down.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,253
    .

    So the laundry fire was bullshit, or has Trump been playing the wrong video game?

    True Promise - الوعد الصادق ✪🇮🇷
    @IRTruePromise
    1h
    Trump: "They hit world's biggest aircraft carrier from 17 angles we ran for our lives it was over"

    https://x.com/IRTruePromise/status/2037800464150839571?s=20

    That’s Iranian propaganda and misinformation so you should really post it. It’s well done though, I’ll give them that
    Indeed. The laundry fire story is seemingly bullshit though as the Ford doesn't have a laundry that could catch fire that way, precisely to avoid this situation.

    My speculation - only speculation - is a mutiny or something close to it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,091
    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I'm trying to think of various proxies for 'propensity to vote Green'.

    So far I've come up with:

    - more urban seat
    - seats where LDs are not 2nd
    - higher public sector employment rates
    - younger demographic

    In short, they're going to destroy Labour in the cities, the uni towns, and probably take enough of their votes in the SE coastal towns to deprive them of a route to being the clear opposition.

    I really could see something like horrendous like

    Ref: 250
    Lab: 95
    Con: 95
    Green: 75
    LD: 55
    SNP: 35
    Others: 45
    THE REFORM-GREEN ALLIANCE!

    PURPLE AND GREEN! YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE!

    :):):):):):)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992

    Scott_xP said:

    @WillHayCardiff

    Reform candidate for Swansea in the upcoming Welsh elections steps down.

    Very strong statement.

    "Politics is a dirty game, but Reform has sunk deep into the sewer when it should have been a beacon of decency."

    This tallies with what many long-term Reform members have been telling me for some time regarding frustration at what they see as an increasingly dictatorial style from Farage and those close to him.

    These are the people Reform are going to need to be out knocking doors over the next six weeks.

    https://x.com/WillHayCardiff/status/2037912746260336749?s=20

    There is an interesting insight buried in there: his claim that too many of the candidates are ex-Tories.

    This lies at the heart of Farage's monomania: destroying the Tories. It is why he wil take in any old defector, no matter how much that taints Reform. He is not interested in appealing to ex-Labour voters. The Tories have slighted him - and must pay for it with their very existence.

    As Reform slide down the polls, the idea of either doing any deal with the other will crash and burn. Which will make it all the easier for Kemi to be believed when she goes into the next election saying "No deals".
    Im hoping he gets to a position he comes begging for a deal and gets told to go fuck himself. Alas i think i wont get that pleasure
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,713

    Brixian59 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    You should get out more
    I'd rather watch paint dry than watch snooker
    American Football is for drug addled freaks
    Baseball is Rounders

    The one US Sport you have to watch to appreciate live is Basketball. The Knicks at MSG in the top tier full house is an incredible iccssion

    Best ball sports for me
    Soccer in a full atmospheric older stadium not a prawn sandwich empirium
    Rugby Union in Cardiff
    Cricket Test Cricket
    Tennis not what it was

    Athletics major events very entertaining more so indoors

    Motor sports

    F1 has become a joke
    Same engine manufacturer formulas more entertaining
    Moto GP
    Speedway Racing on occasions decent

    Cycling Classics very very underrated, Tour De France a must see

    Downhill Alpine best sport if all in my ipinion
    Biathlon live well worth a try...

    Horse Racing Flat boring NH far better
    Snooker's fascinating, if only for the expressions on the faces of those forced to sit and watch as their opponent clears the table.
    Rugby league, although I wish they'd sort out the nonsenses that are the scrums.

    Agree about Test Cricket, although County Cricket, at the ground, can be highly enjoyable.
    County Cricket at places like Worcester and Taunton is a joy.

    At concrete bowls like Edgbaston and Trent Bridge less so
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    The mechanism is used for the government. And you won’t get Reform MPs voting to bring their own government down.
    Then they would pay with their seats at the next GE
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,800
    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I'm trying to think of various proxies for 'propensity to vote Green'.

    So far I've come up with:

    - more urban seat
    - seats where LDs are not 2nd
    - higher public sector employment rates
    - younger demographic

    In short, they're going to destroy Labour in the cities, the uni towns, and probably take enough of their votes in the SE coastal towns to deprive them of a route to being the clear opposition.

    I really could see something like horrendous like

    Ref: 250
    Lab: 95
    Con: 95
    Green: 75
    LD: 55
    SNP: 35
    Others: 45
    Also high Muslim population. That bloc is now part of their base.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,845

    viewcode said:


    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.

    I don't know the answer to this question, but...is it? I mean if two different people asked the same question simultaneously from two nearby terminals, would they get a different answer back or the same?
    Maybe the same answer, maybe not. Maybe not.

    The point of the discussion about the books is that it is possible to get the LLMs to kick out quite accurate chunks of books. With a small amount of extra work, re-assemble the books. By using multiple, overlapping chunks, the accuracy is much improved.

    For extra fun, they have also revealed that pirate copies of books were used to train the LLM in the first place.
    I've been reading Ian McEwan's "What We can Know". Terrific book.
    But about halfway through I was losing track of the various characters and their relationships with one another.
    So I asked Gemini for help. It wanted to know how far into the book I was, as it didn't want to reveal spoilers.
    Very thoughtful of it.
    It had read the book.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,914
    viewcode said:

    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I'm trying to think of various proxies for 'propensity to vote Green'.

    So far I've come up with:

    - more urban seat
    - seats where LDs are not 2nd
    - higher public sector employment rates
    - younger demographic

    In short, they're going to destroy Labour in the cities, the uni towns, and probably take enough of their votes in the SE coastal towns to deprive them of a route to being the clear opposition.

    I really could see something like horrendous like

    Ref: 250
    Lab: 95
    Con: 95
    Green: 75
    LD: 55
    SNP: 35
    Others: 45
    THE REFORM-GREEN ALLIANCE!

    PURPLE AND GREEN! YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE!

    :):):):):):)

    The Aubergine vote

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,924
    edited 4:36PM
    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I agree with you thus: No-one has any idea what the GE outcome will be; and it's possible that seats will be won on very low numbers. However elections are fought and voted on before we know how odd the result will be. What it does not change is this: that as things stand there will be a lot of tactical voting, some will succeed in ousting an unwanted (often Reform) person that 30 something % want and 50 something % don't.

    To some extent the pattern of tactical voting can be predicted, as axiomatically it is about diverse groups coalescing around something because of rational considerations. If that doesn't happen, it isn't tactical voting. Working out the rational considerations is itself a rational exercise.

    At this moment I suggest a probability that a lot of tactical coalescing in England will be in favour of Labour (and LDs in up to 100 seats). Scotland and Wales are different, but tactical voting will still happen. Greens will fall away over time as consideration is given to the priority of 'Stop Reform'. The Tories have an impossible task as a vote for them is neither a vote for Reform nor against them as things stand so to vote for them is neither tactical nor government forming, the two things the election will be about.

    There's a long way to go and plenty of time for it all to change. By 2029 we may all be voting tactically for Reform because no-one else can beat Labour. But I doubt it.

  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,713
    I'll pose a question for those who will know a lot more than I.

    As a lot of the Green vote share is under 25,many in education, University, part time possibly seasonal work.

    Living in one place, legally registered but also resident and on voters roll with parents.

    Does this suggest that Green vote share could be underrated or overrated or is it accurate.

    The bigger question is where their vote is registered and how much the date of a GE could impact on the efficacy of the vote and how tactical will they be in deciding which seat to vote in, uni or home.

    In a very tight race that could be significant.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,437

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    Reform is essentially the political wing of private equity. It's not a real party.
    The LibDems are the political wing of the Waitrose loyalty scheme.
    Very funny ! I love Waitrose . Such a civilised way to shop without screaming out of control children and the ill fitting leggings brigade .
  • Is Reform coming second in Scotland and Wales not an excellent result?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,752
    Roger said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    That's interesting. Why do you think she's a more attractive leader than Cleverly? Also as a non Tory the only
    possible Tory leader I could think of voting for is Cleverly and that's because I saw him on Newsnight a while ago and he was genuinely funny. Something Kemi is not!
    It was the date rape drugging the wife joke that you heard, wasn’t it?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992

    Is Reform coming second in Scotland and Wales not an excellent result?

    Wales yes, they wont come second in Scotland imo
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,166
    edited 4:39PM

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.

    "Necessity" or "Manifest Destiny" or "Gathering of the Russian Lands" or similar slogans are usually covers for ethnic cleansing or genocide of one type or another, and should be regarded as such.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,713
    edited 4:39PM
    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2026 for a while.

    I agree. There is no mechanism by which he can be ejected, and no self-awareness by which he will resign.
    I think he'll survive the year too however there is an ejection mechanism. 81 Labour MPs saying in writing that they want a specific person to replace him triggers a contest.
    Why would he resign

    Who in any Party right now with so many Global issues at the fore, where he has performed very well, would do a better job.

    Certainly none of the other Party Leaders, two of whom would have us at war, two of whom would have us walk out of any negotiation room and none really in Labour who could do a better job on international stage.

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,845
    Brixian59 said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2026 for a while.

    I agree. There is no mechanism by which he can be ejected, and no self-awareness by which he will resign.
    I think he'll survive the year too however there is an ejection mechanism. 81 Labour MPs saying in writing that they want a specific person to replace him triggers a contest.
    Why would he resign

    Who in any Party right now with so many Global issues at the fore, where he has performed very well, would do a better job.

    Certainly none of the other Party Leaders, two of whom would have us at war, two of whom would have us walk out of any negotiation room and none really in Labour who could do a better job on international stage.

    He'll make a great Foreign Secretary.
    And he'll enjoy it more.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,800
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    LD voters are mostly Nimbys now so they won’t be the party of mass house building. The Greens are already the party of marijuana legalisation and net zero, Labour under Ed Miliband also the latter and for solar panels everywhere
    The Greens are now the River to the Sea party.
    Excuse me:

    They're the River to the Sea, pro-Trans Rights, Party.

    I don't think the River to the Sea lads are too keen on LGBT+.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,752
    Brixian59 said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2026 for a while.

    I agree. There is no mechanism by which he can be ejected, and no self-awareness by which he will resign.
    I think he'll survive the year too however there is an ejection mechanism. 81 Labour MPs saying in writing that they want a specific person to replace him triggers a contest.
    Why would he resign

    Who in any Party right now with so many Global issues at the fore, where he has performed very well, would do a better job.

    Certainly none of the other Party Leaders, two of whom would have us at war, two of whom would have us walk out of any negotiation room and none really in Labour who could do a better job on international stage.

    Keirmit is the obvious leader in this Muppet Show Cabinet
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,054
    edited 4:44PM
    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,943
    viewcode said:

    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I'm trying to think of various proxies for 'propensity to vote Green'.

    So far I've come up with:

    - more urban seat
    - seats where LDs are not 2nd
    - higher public sector employment rates
    - younger demographic

    In short, they're going to destroy Labour in the cities, the uni towns, and probably take enough of their votes in the SE coastal towns to deprive them of a route to being the clear opposition.

    I really could see something like horrendous like

    Ref: 250
    Lab: 95
    Con: 95
    Green: 75
    LD: 55
    SNP: 35
    Others: 45
    THE REFORM-GREEN ALLIANCE!

    PURPLE AND GREEN! YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE!

    :):):):):):)
    It should do well in Wimbledon...

    https://www.wimbledon.com/index.html
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,924

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    It certainly would, but as Labour hold 400 seats and no alternative government is at hand, General Election it would be, in which Labour would lose about 350 of them. 'It's nip and tuck at Bootle. Too close to call in Manchester Central'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,054
    edited 4:45PM

    Reform in London.
    There have been 10 by elections in London since LE 25. Reform have won one in Bromley by 5%. This was near the apex of their polling and the nadir of the second placed Tories (i expect Bromley Common to be a toss up this time)
    Theyve been nowhere close to winning any others, coming second once in Barnet but 17% back.
    They will make gains but bear the above in mind when setting your own expectations of the overall picture (1800 of the 5200 wards are in London)

    I expect Reform to take control of Bexley though and have an outside chance of being largest party in Barking and Dagenham and Havering
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,914

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    LD voters are mostly Nimbys now so they won’t be the party of mass house building. The Greens are already the party of marijuana legalisation and net zero, Labour under Ed Miliband also the latter and for solar panels everywhere
    The Greens are now the River to the Sea party.
    Excuse me:

    They're the River to the Sea, pro-Trans Rights, Party.

    I don't think the River to the Sea lads are too keen on LGBT+.
    Which makes some of us wonder how long this can hold together.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,752

    Brixian59 said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2026 for a while.

    I agree. There is no mechanism by which he can be ejected, and no self-awareness by which he will resign.
    I think he'll survive the year too however there is an ejection mechanism. 81 Labour MPs saying in writing that they want a specific person to replace him triggers a contest.
    Why would he resign

    Who in any Party right now with so many Global issues at the fore, where he has performed very well, would do a better job.

    Certainly none of the other Party Leaders, two of whom would have us at war, two of whom would have us walk out of any negotiation room and none really in Labour who could do a better job on international stage.

    Keirmit is the obvious leader in this Muppet Show Cabinet
    Ange-imal would be more passionate in the job
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,361

    Roger said:

    I listened to Any Questions and it was quite a revelation. They had a chacter on called Darren Grimes who I gathered as the programme went on was a Faragist. To say he was thick would only cover one of his most obvious faults and would be an insult to the other three female panellists.

    Early on while I was listening I decided I would change my voting habit of a lifetime and vote Green. But every time Grimes opened his mouth it was clear that wasn't watertight I would have to vote for WHOEVER was most likely to keep Grimes out!

    I still can't get over it. Doesn't Farage have any say who is going to appear as Reform's representative?

    Farage can't do every political gig, and everyone else in the Reform leadership is rubbish at hiding their awfulness.
    Isn't Farage boycotting the BBC?

    Boycotting the BBC possibly, in this instance, means not appearing on EVERY BBC discussion programme.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    algarkirk said:

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    It certainly would, but as Labour hold 400 seats and no alternative government is at hand, General Election it would be, in which Labour would lose about 350 of them. 'It's nip and tuck at Bootle. Too close to call in Manchester Central'.
    I was referring to Reform ousting PM Farage if he went rogue (as there is no ltd company mechanism to do it)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,924
    Brixian59 said:

    I'll pose a question for those who will know a lot more than I.

    As a lot of the Green vote share is under 25,many in education, University, part time possibly seasonal work.

    Living in one place, legally registered but also resident and on voters roll with parents.

    Does this suggest that Green vote share could be underrated or overrated or is it accurate.

    The bigger question is where their vote is registered and how much the date of a GE could impact on the efficacy of the vote and how tactical will they be in deciding which seat to vote in, uni or home.

    In a very tight race that could be significant.

    All good questions, and the only fairly sure thing is that very large numbers of young people won't vote. I don't know of any reason to think this will change.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    HYUFD said:

    Reform in London.
    There have been 10 by elections in London since LE 25. Reform have won one in Bromley by 5%. This was near the apex of their polling and the nadir of the second placed Tories (i expect Bromley Common to be a toss up this time)
    Theyve been nowhere close to winning any others, coming second once in Barnet but 17% back.
    They will make gains but bear the above in mind when setting your own expectations of the overall picture (1800 of the 5200 wards are in London)

    I expect Reform to take control of Bexley though and have an outside chance of being largest party in Barking and Dagenham and Havering
    Yeah certainly possible. Gains, but limited in nature compared to outside. Theyll end up with a similar number of councillors to the LDs in London I think
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,361
    Scott_xP said:

    @vcdgf555.bsky.social‬

    A Stratotanker is squawking 7700 (declaring in-flight emergency); doing orbits off the coast of the UK, likely to burn off some fuel.

    🇺🇸 KC-135R 57-1479 #AE0160

    https://bsky.app/profile/vcdgf555.bsky.social/post/3mi4tqzxjak22

    No Starmer sellout! Don't let them land at Fairford.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,924

    algarkirk said:

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    It certainly would, but as Labour hold 400 seats and no alternative government is at hand, General Election it would be, in which Labour would lose about 350 of them. 'It's nip and tuck at Bootle. Too close to call in Manchester Central'.
    I was referring to Reform ousting PM Farage if he went rogue (as there is no ltd company mechanism to do it)
    Apologies for misreading. My bad.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    It certainly would, but as Labour hold 400 seats and no alternative government is at hand, General Election it would be, in which Labour would lose about 350 of them. 'It's nip and tuck at Bootle. Too close to call in Manchester Central'.
    I was referring to Reform ousting PM Farage if he went rogue (as there is no ltd company mechanism to do it)
    Apologies for misreading. My bad.

    I forgive you my child
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,800
    algarkirk said:

    Brixian59 said:

    I'll pose a question for those who will know a lot more than I.

    As a lot of the Green vote share is under 25,many in education, University, part time possibly seasonal work.

    Living in one place, legally registered but also resident and on voters roll with parents.

    Does this suggest that Green vote share could be underrated or overrated or is it accurate.

    The bigger question is where their vote is registered and how much the date of a GE could impact on the efficacy of the vote and how tactical will they be in deciding which seat to vote in, uni or home.

    In a very tight race that could be significant.

    All good questions, and the only fairly sure thing is that very large numbers of young people won't vote. I don't know of any reason to think this will change.

    That turnout factor is built into the pollsters modelling and predictions already is it not?

    In Gorton and Denton they turned out it seems. If pollsters are underestimating Green voters likelihood to turn out then it could be entertaining indeed.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,704
    viewcode said:

    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I'm trying to think of various proxies for 'propensity to vote Green'.

    So far I've come up with:

    - more urban seat
    - seats where LDs are not 2nd
    - higher public sector employment rates
    - younger demographic

    In short, they're going to destroy Labour in the cities, the uni towns, and probably take enough of their votes in the SE coastal towns to deprive them of a route to being the clear opposition.

    I really could see something like horrendous like

    Ref: 250
    Lab: 95
    Con: 95
    Green: 75
    LD: 55
    SNP: 35
    Others: 45
    THE REFORM-GREEN ALLIANCE!

    PURPLE AND GREEN! YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE!

    :):):):):):)
    Reform are light blue, not purple.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,437
    Local elections skew older in demographics so there’s reason to think the Greens might under perform.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Anyone on the left will be feeling like a total mug if they vote Conservative to keep Reform out and then see their Tory MP filing into the same lobby as PM Farage for the next five years.

    Vote Blue, Get Turquoise.

    This may well prove a major Tory problem, and there is only one route out of it that I can see.

    Labour hold 400 seats, so are the most obvious tactical 'Not Reform' choice. In up to 100 seats where LDs are Labour's proxy, LD is the obvious tactical choice. The Tories are not the first tactical choice beyond their 120 seats, and in those they will only be so if they are committed to opposing Reform AND voters believe them.

    Their one and only route out is to be so brilliant for the next two years, and have some luck, that the polling shifts to the Tories being nicely ahead of Reform. Then and only then, the question reverses. You don't ask the Tories if they will back Reform; you ask Reform if they will back the Tories. Tory problem solved.

    You then vote Tory because you want a Centre Right government. This outcome is unlikely.

    OK...

    So this is mostly true.

    But if the next election has five parties within 11 points of each other (25 to 14), then there are going to be some seats won on very low vote shares. It's not impossible that -in Scotland, for example- a seat could be won on as little as 18 or 19% of the vote.

    We also don't really know how efficiently distributed the various vote shares are. Because the Greens are coming from (practically) nowhere, UNS is adding 15 percentage points to them everywhere. But that might not be accurate at all. Their vote might be extremely diffuse, or extremely concentrated, or somewhere in between.
    I'm trying to think of various proxies for 'propensity to vote Green'.

    So far I've come up with:

    - more urban seat
    - seats where LDs are not 2nd
    - higher public sector employment rates
    - younger demographic

    In short, they're going to destroy Labour in the cities, the uni towns, and probably take enough of their votes in the SE coastal towns to deprive them of a route to being the clear opposition.

    I really could see something like horrendous like

    Ref: 250
    Lab: 95
    Con: 95
    Green: 75
    LD: 55
    SNP: 35
    Others: 45
    I think that's quite, likely, albeit I'd put the LDs 20 seats higher: they are fortunate that their seats are almost all Con v LD, with (outside the South West) Reform some way behind. And as the Conservative vote share is down sharply on 2024, I can't seen them gaining many seats from the LDs.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,361
    nico67 said:

    Local elections skew older in demographics so there’s reason to think the Greens might under perform.

    If age is the key factor, that suggests Fash and Con do better than expected.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,800

    algarkirk said:

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    It certainly would, but as Labour hold 400 seats and no alternative government is at hand, General Election it would be, in which Labour would lose about 350 of them. 'It's nip and tuck at Bootle. Too close to call in Manchester Central'.
    I was referring to Reform ousting PM Farage if he went rogue (as there is no ltd company mechanism to do it)
    They may however oust PM Farage by defecting from his party enmasse, then a VONC, either to Restore, Con or Independent.

    Indeed I would anticipate just such a fiasco if a Reform majority government.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701

    viewcode said:


    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.

    I don't know the answer to this question, but...is it? I mean if two different people asked the same question simultaneously from two nearby terminals, would they get a different answer back or the same?
    Maybe the same answer, maybe not. Maybe not.

    The point of the discussion about the books is that it is possible to get the LLMs to kick out quite accurate chunks of books. With a small amount of extra work, re-assemble the books. By using multiple, overlapping chunks, the accuracy is much improved.

    For extra fun, they have also revealed that pirate copies of books were used to train the LLM in the first place.
    N'ah, they're just revealing that Harry Potter is so derivative, it's possible for an LLM to generate huge chunks of it with barely any effort at all.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,052

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    LD voters are mostly Nimbys now so they won’t be the party of mass house building. The Greens are already the party of marijuana legalisation and net zero, Labour under Ed Miliband also the latter and for solar panels everywhere
    The Greens are now the River to the Sea party.
    Excuse me:

    They're the River to the Sea, pro-Trans Rights, Party.

    I don't think the River to the Sea lads are too keen on LGBT+.
    They're not, but they can deal with that when they've got their preferred policies passed.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    VoNC in parliament would oust him if the party wanted him gone
    It certainly would, but as Labour hold 400 seats and no alternative government is at hand, General Election it would be, in which Labour would lose about 350 of them. 'It's nip and tuck at Bootle. Too close to call in Manchester Central'.
    I was referring to Reform ousting PM Farage if he went rogue (as there is no ltd company mechanism to do it)
    They may however oust PM Farage by defecting from his party enmasse, then a VONC, either to Restore, Con or Independent.

    Indeed I would anticipate just such a fiasco if a Reform majority government.
    Thars what i said. VONC. No need to defect, Chuck the third sends for whomever Reform have confidence in
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    LD voters are mostly Nimbys now so they won’t be the party of mass house building. The Greens are already the party of marijuana legalisation and net zero, Labour under Ed Miliband also the latter and for solar panels everywhere
    The Greens are now the River to the Sea party.
    Excuse me:

    They're the River to the Sea, pro-Trans Rights, Party.

    I don't think the River to the Sea lads are too keen on LGBT+.
    That was rather my point.

    The Greens are full of people who care passionately about trans rights (in the UK), and about Gaza.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,437

    nico67 said:

    Local elections skew older in demographics so there’s reason to think the Greens might under perform.

    If age is the key factor, that suggests Fash and Con do better than expected.
    Sadly yes. Especially with the right wing press onside and fellating Farage on a daily basis .
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,992

    nico67 said:

    Local elections skew older in demographics so there’s reason to think the Greens might under perform.

    If age is the key factor, that suggests Fash and Con do better than expected.
    Tories are certainly hoping their older vote turns out this year after having an early lunch and a long nap last year.
    The old dears round here in North Norfolk are being herded with my prodding devices
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,346
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    LD voters are mostly Nimbys now so they won’t be the party of mass house building. The Greens are already the party of marijuana legalisation and net zero, Labour under Ed Miliband also the latter and for solar panels everywhere
    The Greens are now the River to the Sea party.
    Excuse me:

    They're the River to the Sea, pro-Trans Rights, Party.

    I don't think the River to the Sea lads are too keen on LGBT+.
    That was rather my point.

    The Greens are full of people who care passionately about trans rights (in the UK), and about Gaza.
    From the river to the sea

    We also love LGBT…
  • algarkirk said:

    Brixian59 said:

    I'll pose a question for those who will know a lot more than I.

    As a lot of the Green vote share is under 25,many in education, University, part time possibly seasonal work.

    Living in one place, legally registered but also resident and on voters roll with parents.

    Does this suggest that Green vote share could be underrated or overrated or is it accurate.

    The bigger question is where their vote is registered and how much the date of a GE could impact on the efficacy of the vote and how tactical will they be in deciding which seat to vote in, uni or home.

    In a very tight race that could be significant.

    All good questions, and the only fairly sure thing is that very large numbers of young people won't vote. I don't know of any reason to think this will change.

    Young voters are more likely to be double registered that more senior voters. By law you can only vote for one election at one place where there are multiple elections on the same day. But, because local councils are so fragmented it would be unlikely many double registered voters would have voting in both places they are registered. I know most universities register all their students as a matter of course, as generally they should. but it looks better for the uni. Oh, look all those students. But not all students will want to vote there but would only want to vote at their real home.

    This is never taken account of when considering percentage turnouts. This used ot be most spectacular at Catterick in N Yorks where all the squaddies on the electoral role have moved elsewhere by the time of the election. That also messed up the warding of the old Richmondshire District Council, probably still does for North Yorks.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,800
    FF43 said:

    nico67 said:

    Reform isn’t a proper democratic political party and the media just seem to ignore the fact that Farage couldn’t be ousted as leader even if he shot someone .

    Unless there’s a major change in the structure of the party then he could end up as PM and literally could do anything and there’s no way of removing him .

    Reform is essentially the political wing of private equity. It's not a real party.
    The LibDems are the political wing of the Waitrose loyalty scheme.
    I'm OK with that. At least you get a better quality hummus.
    The best of the supermarket hummous is the Sabra one. It is made in Israel, but so good that I buy it most weeks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,054
    edited 5:03PM
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Brixian59 said:

    I'll pose a question for those who will know a lot more than I.

    As a lot of the Green vote share is under 25,many in education, University, part time possibly seasonal work.

    Living in one place, legally registered but also resident and on voters roll with parents.

    Does this suggest that Green vote share could be underrated or overrated or is it accurate.

    The bigger question is where their vote is registered and how much the date of a GE could impact on the efficacy of the vote and how tactical will they be in deciding which seat to vote in, uni or home.

    In a very tight race that could be significant.

    All good questions, and the only fairly sure thing is that very large numbers of young people won't vote. I don't know of any reason to think this will change.

    That turnout factor is built into the pollsters modelling and predictions already is it not?

    In Gorton and Denton they turned out it seems. If pollsters are underestimating Green voters likelihood to turn out then it could be entertaining indeed.
    In inner city areas like Gorton where the population is younger on average then yes it could see bigger than expected Green gains from Labour. I don't expect many Green gains outside the inner cities and some university towns though
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,253
    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    Israel undermined itself as a Jewish homeland by annexing territory from Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. Including populations in occupied territories. Israel is now an Arab majority country.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,701
    Taz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    Cleverly is a donkey with no charisma
    As I am not a Tory I would be delighted if Kemi was replaced, especially by Cleverly, as it will reduce the number of seats they will win.
    Kemi is currently projected to win about 50 to 70 seats, tactical anti Reform votes could hold more Tory seats
    Am I the only person on the left who would rather see a ReFukker elected than a Tory?

    Short term pain for long term gain.
    I can understand you take the line you would vote Reform over the Kemi led Tories. Would you still vote Reform over even a Cleverly led Tories?
    Yes. Destroying the Conservatives as a political force is the objective, regardless of leader.

    Reform would then destroy themselves.
    And the right of centre voters coalesce around a new project. Or the uber right populists swoop in.
    The desire to crush socialists and communists wont go away just because the branding does.
    Or the LibDems become the mainstream alternative to Labour, and everything further right is the political fringe.
    No-one from the LibDems seems to want to replace Davey. Yet, anyway.
    They've flatlined in national polling. They are giving ti achieve nothing in Scotland and Wales.

    If they don't make sizable gains in England in May then it could be time for Daisy to pounce.
    I’m not certain Daisy has a fundamentally different view as to how the LibDems should operate in this new political climate to Davey. A new leader would garner some publicity, but I don’t think voters are going to flock to the LibDems just because it’s Cooper rather than Davey in charge.
    The party has built a brand as the sensible, grown up ones. Now, before Taz has conniptions I appreciate that’s not how they’re seen by many politicos, but that’s their brand nonetheless.

    Therefore a calm, friendly succession process to Daisy when the time is right, with some cheerful competition in the leadership election, would be the most on-brand approach.

    The right time is probably either 6-12 months before the next election, or immediately after but from a position of, hopefully, a solid Westminster seat count.
    There's nothing wrong as such with Davey's boring centre-left centrism with a pro-Europe, anti-Trumo tilt.

    It's just that wholly unambitious as a platform.

    I fear the Lib Dems have been so successful in socially liberal, middle class ex-Tory seats that they have embedded that small-c conservatism into their ethos.

    I would rather the party embraced more 'radical centrism' with ideas for reforms that go beyond spending a bit more money here or there. That could be stealing the Green's clothes and being the party of the environment and renewables. Or making a bigger thing of marijuana legalisation policy. Or being the party of housebuilding given how much Labour has failed there. Or any number of other things given more than 2 minutes thought.

    We're at a time of unprecedented shift in the British political landscape and the Lib Dems just seem to be a side show clinging onto their 70-80 seats with no voice in the national political debate. I think it's worth rolling the dice and seeing if a new leader can make themselves heard.
    LD voters are mostly Nimbys now so they won’t be the party of mass house building. The Greens are already the party of marijuana legalisation and net zero, Labour under Ed Miliband also the latter and for solar panels everywhere
    The Greens are now the River to the Sea party.
    Excuse me:

    They're the River to the Sea, pro-Trans Rights, Party.

    I don't think the River to the Sea lads are too keen on LGBT+.
    That was rather my point.

    The Greens are full of people who care passionately about trans rights (in the UK), and about Gaza.
    From the river to the sea

    We also love LGBT…
    I like it; there's a Green Party anthem in there.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,537
    Brixian59 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cookie said:

    CatMan said:

    Hope you're all enjoying the beginning of the cricket season. IPL just started :sunglasses:

    Most boring "sport" in the world!
    You make this point often Sunil. I disagree. I rank sports, from most to least exciting, thus:
    Rugby union
    Cricket
    Golf (but only the Ryder Cup)
    American Football
    Rugby League
    Athletics
    Snooker
    Ice Hockey
    Football (unless I amwatching a game my daughter is playing)
    Basketball
    Formula One
    Tennis
    You should get out more
    I'd rather watch paint dry than watch snooker
    American Football is for drug addled freaks
    Baseball is Rounders

    The one US Sport you have to watch to appreciate live is Basketball. The Knicks at MSG in the top tier full house is an incredible iccssion

    Best ball sports for me
    Soccer in a full atmospheric older stadium not a prawn sandwich empirium
    Rugby Union in Cardiff
    Cricket Test Cricket
    Tennis not what it was

    Athletics major events very entertaining more so indoors

    Motor sports

    F1 has become a joke
    Same engine manufacturer formulas more entertaining
    Moto GP
    Speedway Racing on occasions decent

    Cycling Classics very very underrated, Tour De France a must see

    Downhill Alpine best sport if all in my ipinion
    Biathlon live well worth a try...

    Horse Racing Flat boring NH far better
    Downhill skiing I totally agree with but it falls into the category for me of things I’ve done well but are minority and not generally crowd sports where there is a lot more to it than simply the game.

    I love football, rugby (both codes) and international cricket - I still l prefer sitting outside in the summer listening to the ashes than watching them but I am weird. I do like NFL a lot but am not as emotionally invested - for some reason I love the games around Christmas played in the snow.


    Then there are minority sports I’ve played to a high level where I am invested purely because I’ve played and loved it.

    Fencing, Waterpolo and hockey, three day eventing - I can watch as a critic or ex participant where I can truly get the skills and tactics required where I can’t with other minority sports.

    Downhill skiing though is the one, apart from fencing, I would love to be able to win Olympic gold. Every run I’ve done in my life has been about trying to go as fast as my body and balance can handle and am in awe of those who go in the Olympics.
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