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The end of the Keir show might be delayed – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,126
    The grooming story is still off limits.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,789

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Here in Birmingham, I'd say the main factors driving the exodus are the bin strike, the bankrupt council and dissatisfaction with Labour's policy on Israel/Gaza.
    Certainly Labour's Middle East policy is a big driver of the move, but far from the only one.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,615
    Yeah. I had a lay on Starmer not being replaced this year - the same bet that paid off nicely with respect to 2025 - but I cashed out once things started to look very dicky for him in the spring. I agree with the lead that things now look more favourable (less unfavourable would be nearer the mark) for him now, but contemplating bad election results on paper doesn't necessarily conjure up the same emotion as having a shedload of colleagues who've suddenly lost their seats and power. On balance I still feel he'll make it to the end of 2026 but am not sure the current odds are hugely tempting.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,789

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,789
    IanB2 said:

    Yeah. I had a lay on Starmer not being replaced this year - the same bet that paid off nicely with respect to 2025 - but I cashed out once things started to look very dicky for him in the spring. I agree with the lead that things now look more favourable (less unfavourable would be nearer the mark) for him now, but contemplating bad election results on paper doesn't necessarily conjure up the same emotion as having a shedload of colleagues who've suddenly lost their seats and power. On balance I still feel he'll make it to the end of 2026 but am not sure the current odds are hugely tempting.

    I suspect this bet will be better value on May 8th.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 5,597
    edited 9:52AM
    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2026 for a while.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,010

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    Wut?

    Aren't the vast majority of those things that the Badenoch either actively supports, or doesn't particularly oppose?

    Whatever her strengths, Badenoch is far closer to being a de facto Faragist than Cleverly, let alone Starmer.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    No argument but that is the Johnson/Truss brand damage and we see the response to the troubles of the 2 established parties an exodus to the extreme right and left, both of which would be a disaster for our country
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,570
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,511

    I am the God of Labour insight. I’ve been saying Sir Keir will see out 2027 for a while.

    Hmm. Small chance this won't age well. Though to be honest I don't see who'll replace him. He did a good job when he screwed Burnham over. By which I mean good for himself, not good for the country.
  • So once again depending on your preferred team there’s a poll for you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 67,368
    edited 9:57AM
    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    Cheer up, it’s a beautiful spring day
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    As I said last night I can't see Cleverly accepting a job in a Farage led government in a hung parliament but I can see Kemi accepting a Cabinet post from Farage
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,484
    https://x.com/steven_swinford/status/2037813821776007592

    Exclusive from @patrickkmaguire and @oliver_wright

    * Labour's internal MRP polling is said to be apocalyptic, in the capital and beyond. Labour is on course to lose *every one* of the 50 seats it holds in Sunderland, home to Bridget Phillipson, the education secretary. Most are predicted to go to Reform

    * London, where all councils are up for election, is expected to be especially challenging. There are fears that the Greens could make significant gains in Camden, where Starmer’s seat is located, as well as Hackney, Lewisham and Lambeth
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,970

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    Nothing says united and serious party like ditching your leader when they lead the approval ratings
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,083

    Starmer is what he always was- horribly flawed as PM, but less flawed than the available alternatives (sorry Angela, sorry Andy, sorry Wes). So he stays until someone better emerges.

    Thinking about it , I wonder how much that was the thought process of Conservative MPs in the 2022 confidence vote; "Boris is obviously a disaster, but if we sack him it will be Sunak or Truss oh no the members will go for Truss..."

    Then again, it feels like a loooong time since a General Election threw up two genuinely viable, non-discredited, candidates for PM.

    The thing is not that the available alternatives are flawed but they are unavailable or might not want it.

    Andy Burnham: not an MP so can't stand
    Wes Streeting: can't win from the right
    Ed Miliband: on record as not wanting PM after his stint as LotO; said to want Chancellor and offered a pact with Rayner to that end; is already implementing his pet policy
    Angela Rayner: even assuming the tax thing goes away in a couple of months, is said to have cold feet

    After May and Boris and Liz and Rishi (and, for that matter, Kier) maybe the bloom has come off the rose. Maybe Prime Minister is a terrible job, hounded by the media, derided by the public, almost powerless, and with a tenure of a couple of years at most.

    If you go into politics to get things done, your own department or (better) the Treasury are the places to be. If you want to be treated like a king, wafted around the world from banquet to banquet, Foreign Secretary. Only if you became an MP with the ambition of being insulted weekly by the American president is the top of the greasy pole worth the climb.

    That's a good point: that you can achieve a lot with less fuss as a Minister than you can as PM, and the PM has little power and more grief. I must point out that is particularly true at the moment with Starmer not imposing a coherent direction on the ministers, so they may do as they will. But that's me just welding my bugbear onto your good point. Thank you.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,511

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    Er no. Sunak was given a chance by voters, he blew it in Government. You're trying to whitewash this for wet Toryism because that's your political preference. In actuality, Sunak was God-awful and totally inadequate for the times. He only looks marginally better because his successor is Sir Binfire.
  • Everyone is assuming that if ut goes to the membership, then the candidate furthest to the left will win.

    That didn't happen last time, and since then we've lost lefty members to the Greens and Your Party.

    So if it were, for example, Streeting v Rayner, I don't see it as a shoo-in for the latter.

    The deputy leader result was closer than many expected, and that was in part a 'stick 2 fingers up at Starmer' protest vote.

    I think that's right. Back in 2020, Starmer beat Long-Bailey comfortably. Since then, the Party has lost around 200,000 members, and it's safe to assume that the vast majority of those were from the (far) left.
    The activists within the Party are still primarily on the left. The silent majority who will decide the next leader are not.
    People like me.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,570

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    Nothing says united and serious party like ditching your leader when they lead the approval ratings
    It's what the Tories do when polling suggest they're not going to win an election.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,970

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    Nothing says united and serious party like ditching your leader when they lead the approval ratings
    It's what the Tories do when polling suggest they're not going to win an election.
    Yes. But its not what they need to do.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,846
    Labour governments have to live in the real world. Keir Starmer has come to power at a perilous time.

    This government is not Reform-lite. What it is, is not Corbynite. It’s not carrying out a programme of revenge socialism, nor implementing social policies which are anathema to the median voter.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,511
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    As I said last night I can't see Cleverly accepting a job in a Farage led government in a hung parliament but I can see Kemi accepting a Cabinet post from Farage
    I can't see Cleverly being offered a job in a Farage-led Government. Farage will need effective Ministers, not useless timeservers so incompetent that they try to fix a leadership election and end up eliminating themselves.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,789

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    But neither is being a marginally less offensive version of Reform.

    The best chance of a Tory revival is a complete meltdown of Farage. Always possible as he has form, but it leaves their future in the hands of others.

    Reform are going to have a good round of elections in May.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    What is the centre ground and who offers it ?

    Kemi has to balance the worst aspects of Reform with an agenda that promotes business, helps the young, addresses the boats, controls immigration and above all invests in defence

    Her policies to date are a good start in all these areas, and she leads on the economy which is essential for any prospective government

    She has her faults and critics, but her mps and membership are supportive of her and recognise this is a 3 year project
  • https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,511
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    Cheer up, it’s a beautiful spring day
    It could even have copies of your oeuvre. You could be in for a payout.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,789

    https://x.com/steven_swinford/status/2037813821776007592

    Exclusive from @patrickkmaguire and @oliver_wright

    * Labour's internal MRP polling is said to be apocalyptic, in the capital and beyond. Labour is on course to lose *every one* of the 50 seats it holds in Sunderland, home to Bridget Phillipson, the education secretary. Most are predicted to go to Reform

    * London, where all councils are up for election, is expected to be especially challenging. There are fears that the Greens could make significant gains in Camden, where Starmer’s seat is located, as well as Hackney, Lewisham and Lambeth

    Even Starmer's happy clappers are going to get the collywobbles after that.

    The prediction looks highly plausible to me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 67,368
    That poll

    At some point we’re going to see a poll with Greens in the lead, and about to form a government

    😶

    Every time you think British politics can’t get more pathetically depressing, it proves you wrong
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,970
    https://x.com/i/status/2037831163402657832

    Josh Housdens latest Nowcast. Reform dip far enough short to need support, 5 parties all within 40 seats of each other. LD official opposition from a distant fifth place. FPTP Democracy rules baby
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,511
    edited 10:06AM

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    He's gone very wrong. Daft man. However, Reform were wise to give him full support and continue to do so - he'd be off to Rupert Lowe with a sob story otherwise. Written all over him.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,618
    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    When you have a machine that learns, how can you know what it does once it's started learning?
    Machine learning algorithms generally learn within very tight parameters. They're not learning like a child does. So in most cases it is easy to know what it does once it's started learning. LLMs, as discussed above, are somewhat more complicated, but we still understand how they work and what they might do.
  • AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    When you have a machine that learns, how can you know what it does once it's started learning?
    Machine learning algorithms generally learn within very tight parameters. They're not learning like a child does. So in most cases it is easy to know what it does once it's started learning. LLMs, as discussed above, are somewhat more complicated, but we still understand how they work and what they might do.
    To even say LLMs are learning at all is up for debate.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,083
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    ...hence the modifier "-adjacent". We keep forgetting that it's extraordinary that a *Labour* Home Secretary is proposing voluntary repatriation as a policy, a policy that I thought died with Powell.
  • That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 67,368

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    What is the centre ground and who offers it ?

    Kemi has to balance the worst aspects of Reform with an agenda that promotes business, helps the young, addresses the boats, controls immigration and above all invests in defence

    Her policies to date are a good start in all these areas, and she leads on the economy which is essential for any prospective government

    She has her faults and critics, but her mps and membership are supportive of her and recognise this is a 3 year project
    She needs to build a team that agrees with her. Hardline on Woke issues, but with more practical economics

    She could promote Katie Lam to shadow Home Secretary, to start with
  • https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    He's gone very wrong. Daft man. However, Reform were wise to give him full support and continue to do so - he'd be off to Rupert Lowe with a sob story otherwise. Written all over him.
    Why were they wise? It was obvious he’d gone off the crazy end over a year ago.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,570

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    What is the centre ground and who offers it ?

    Kemi has to balance the worst aspects of Reform with an agenda that promotes business, helps the young, addresses the boats, controls immigration and above all invests in defence

    Her policies to date are a good start in all these areas, and she leads on the economy which is essential for any prospective government

    She has her faults and critics, but her mps and membership are supportive of her and recognise this is a 3 year project
    Why vote for a pale imitation of Reform when you can have the real thing? And there's even the cask strength Restore, if Reform is too mild for your taste.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    ...hence the modifier "-adjacent". We keep forgetting that it's extraordinary that a *Labour* Home Secretary is proposing voluntary repatriation as a policy, a policy that I thought died with Powell.
    It is clever politics when Kemi declared the conservatives would vote for Mahmood immigration bill to ensure it passed, against her own backbenchers fury
  • Matt Goodwin is like a politician with none of the ability.

    Doesn’t answer a question and shouts your head off.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    What is the centre ground and who offers it ?

    Kemi has to balance the worst aspects of Reform with an agenda that promotes business, helps the young, addresses the boats, controls immigration and above all invests in defence

    Her policies to date are a good start in all these areas, and she leads on the economy which is essential for any prospective government

    She has her faults and critics, but her mps and membership are supportive of her and recognise this is a 3 year project
    Why vote for a pale imitation of Reform when you can have the real thing? And there's even the cask strength Restore, if Reform is too mild for your taste.
    Because Farage is the extreme and does not have the answers anymore than the Greens
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,967
    edited 10:14AM

    https://x.com/i/status/2037831163402657832

    Josh Housdens latest Nowcast. Reform dip far enough short to need support, 5 parties all within 40 seats of each other. LD official opposition from a distant fifth place. FPTP Democracy rules baby

    The geography is fascinating. So many patterns there.

    The most obvious are the Lib Dem / Reform Wessex vs Danelaw divide and the more explicable SNP colours of Scotland, but we also have the way Plaid is walled in west of the Cambrians and the funny Tory blue wall along the borderline of the Lib Dem and Reform polities. Like a sort of transitional climate zone.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,511
    edited 10:15AM

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    He's gone very wrong. Daft man. However, Reform were wise to give him full support and continue to do so - he'd be off to Rupert Lowe with a sob story otherwise. Written all over him.
    Why were they wise? It was obvious he’d gone off the crazy end over a year ago.
    Yes, I think so. He worked hard and did OK in Gorton and Denton - yes another candidate might have provoked a bit less of a tactical voting response, but the Greens would still have benefited from a major Labour decline, and would have won. And frankiy he is bound to be offered another shot come the GE because is he worse than 600 other would-be candidates?

    If they had
    a) not selected him or
    b) not fully supported his campaign
    he'd have gone off like a hand grenade.

    This current rogering he's taking over his shite book will hopefully be character-building for him.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,970
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    Not really true, even when Boris resigned the Tories were polling 27-35% ie higher than they got at the 2024 general election under Rishi.

    When Truss resigned the Tories were polling 19-23% in the polls in the week leading up to her resignation, albeit a bit higher with Omnisis and Techne.

    So Rishi actually slightly increased the Tories average voteshare to 24% in 2024 relative to Truss but then under Kemi the Tories vote has gone back down to Truss levels and in some polls even lower
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
    All because Johnson and Truss ratnered the brand

    The only chink of light is Kemi is far more popular than the party and has 3 years to change that
    The Tories are polling significantly below their worst GE result in 2 centuries, mid term against a deeply unpopular government.
    I do think they have an opportunity (as someone observed upthread they are happier and more united sans Jenrick and Braverman), but they need a new leader. They're not going to reoccupy the centre ground as Reform lite.
    What is the centre ground and who offers it ?

    Kemi has to balance the worst aspects of Reform with an agenda that promotes business, helps the young, addresses the boats, controls immigration and above all invests in defence

    Her policies to date are a good start in all these areas, and she leads on the economy which is essential for any prospective government

    She has her faults and critics, but her mps and membership are supportive of her and recognise this is a 3 year project
    She needs to build a team that agrees with her. Hardline on Woke issues, but with more practical economics

    She could promote Katie Lam to shadow Home Secretary, to start with
    She needs to take stock after May - what worked and where and can that be expanded into more areas. And where and why was the deficit in performance. The polling and the narrative will take the usual adjustment from May 8 so move from then if needed..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041
    Leon said:

    That poll

    At some point we’re going to see a poll with Greens in the lead, and about to form a government

    😶

    Every time you think British politics can’t get more pathetically depressing, it proves you wrong

    We aren't, they are polling less than half what Corbyn got in 2017 and barely more than half what Corbyn got in 2019
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,341

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Here in Birmingham, I'd say the main factors driving the exodus are the bin strike, the bankrupt council and dissatisfaction with Labour's policy on Israel/Gaza.
    How many seats do you think the Gaza indies will pick up in Brum ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,134
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,903

    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Not with Cleverly
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    edited 10:22AM
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,970
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Which polls?
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 5,597
    edited 10:23AM

    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041
    edited 10:26AM

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi. Unless Kemi wins back Reform voters she will see the Tories taken over by Reform within a decade (unless we got PR)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,996

    Everyone is assuming that if ut goes to the membership, then the candidate furthest to the left will win.

    That didn't happen last time, and since then we've lost lefty members to the Greens and Your Party.

    So if it were, for example, Streeting v Rayner, I don't see it as a shoo-in for the latter.

    The deputy leader result was closer than many expected, and that was in part a 'stick 2 fingers up at Starmer' protest vote.

    I think that's right. Back in 2020, Starmer beat Long-Bailey comfortably. Since then, the Party has lost around 200,000 members, and it's safe to assume that the vast majority of those were from the (far) left.
    The activists within the Party are still primarily on the left. The silent majority who will decide the next leader are not.
    That's an astute comment. But lots of centrist Labour members are unhappy about the lack of medium-term direction, and it's not clear to me that Rayner offers a change - Streeting probably does, but a marked shift to the right, which isn't what centrist members want. EdM again? Probably as kingmaker rather than recrowned king.

    Main problem is that it's really too early in the Parliament for a classic challenge - plenty of time for a fresh face to grow tired. But the huge loss of members in the current situation is a little-observed real phenomenon, and if it carries on for another couple of years there won't be much left.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,961

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi
    Where are these polls and the leadership is not relevant to May 26
  • Everyone is assuming that if ut goes to the membership, then the candidate furthest to the left will win.

    That didn't happen last time, and since then we've lost lefty members to the Greens and Your Party.

    So if it were, for example, Streeting v Rayner, I don't see it as a shoo-in for the latter.

    The deputy leader result was closer than many expected, and that was in part a 'stick 2 fingers up at Starmer' protest vote.

    I think that's right. Back in 2020, Starmer beat Long-Bailey comfortably. Since then, the Party has lost around 200,000 members, and it's safe to assume that the vast majority of those were from the (far) left.
    The activists within the Party are still primarily on the left. The silent majority who will decide the next leader are not.
    That's an astute comment. But lots of centrist Labour members are unhappy about the lack of medium-term direction, and it's not clear to me that Rayner offers a change - Streeting probably does, but a marked shift to the right, which isn't what centrist members want. EdM again? Probably as kingmaker rather than recrowned king.

    Main problem is that it's really too early in the Parliament for a classic challenge - plenty of time for a fresh face to grow tired. But the huge loss of members in the current situation is a little-observed real phenomenon, and if it carries on for another couple of years there won't be much left.
    I suspect Labour members are generally happy to keep Starmer (I would prefer him to quit and we have Wes) but just want a few more left wing policies and results.

    But that seems opposed to the public. A skilled leader would be able to bridge the two.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041
    edited 10:32AM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi
    Where are these polls and the leadership is not relevant to May 26
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-more-likely-see-james-cleverly-pm-other-conservative-leadership-candidates-none-score-highly

    Cleverly had double the support with All voters Kemi had

    https://bmgresearch.com/news/conservative-leadership-polling-2024/

    Labour and LD voters preferred Cleverly to Badenoch

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/james-cleverly-tops-list-who-would-make-good-tory-leader-3-in-5-say-they-dont-care
  • eekeek Posts: 33,059

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
    Would be useful to have had a fact checker to confirm that the facts he used as the basis of the book actually had something to back them up.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,986
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Here in Birmingham, I'd say the main factors driving the exodus are the bin strike, the bankrupt council and dissatisfaction with Labour's policy on Israel/Gaza.
    How many seats do you think the Gaza indies will pick up in Brum ?
    What can Brummie's councillors do about Gaza? I realise it's in a terrible, terrible mess, so there are some similarities but that's about as far as it goes.

    And Good Morning everyone. Lovely sunshine here, but an unusually cold West wind.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,043

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    When you have a machine that learns, how can you know what it does once it's started learning?
    Machine learning algorithms generally learn within very tight parameters. They're not learning like a child does. So in most cases it is easy to know what it does once it's started learning. LLMs, as discussed above, are somewhat more complicated, but we still understand how they work and what they might do.
    That's good, but everybody makes mistakes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,789

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
    He claimed it was by demographic experts.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,970
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi
    Where are these polls and the leadership is not relevant to May 26
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-more-likely-see-james-cleverly-pm-other-conservative-leadership-candidates-none-score-highly

    Cleverly had double the support with All voters Kemi had

    https://bmgresearch.com/news/conservative-leadership-polling-2024/
    A poll from October 2024?
    Lol.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,041

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi
    Where are these polls and the leadership is not relevant to May 26
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-more-likely-see-james-cleverly-pm-other-conservative-leadership-candidates-none-score-highly

    Cleverly had double the support with All voters Kemi had

    https://bmgresearch.com/news/conservative-leadership-polling-2024/
    A poll from October 2024?
    Lol.
    Since then the Tories have fallen from second to third and even fourth with Yougov
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,696

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    He's just a very unpleasant racist. Someone should point him towards Canada and Switzerland. To think he got 10,000 votes in Denton
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,970
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi
    Where are these polls and the leadership is not relevant to May 26
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-more-likely-see-james-cleverly-pm-other-conservative-leadership-candidates-none-score-highly

    Cleverly had double the support with All voters Kemi had

    https://bmgresearch.com/news/conservative-leadership-polling-2024/
    A poll from October 2024?
    Lol.
    Since then the Tories have fallen from second to third and even fourth with Yougov
    You are arguing on the LD and Lab view of Cleverly and using 18 month old polling to 'prove' it.
  • AnneJGP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    When you have a machine that learns, how can you know what it does once it's started learning?
    Machine learning algorithms generally learn within very tight parameters. They're not learning like a child does. So in most cases it is easy to know what it does once it's started learning. LLMs, as discussed above, are somewhat more complicated, but we still understand how they work and what they might do.
    That's good, but everybody makes mistakes.
    It’s a probabilistic model. It will ALWAYS make mistakes.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    edited 10:41AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi
    Where are these polls and the leadership is not relevant to May 26
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-more-likely-see-james-cleverly-pm-other-conservative-leadership-candidates-none-score-highly

    Cleverly had double the support with All voters Kemi had

    https://bmgresearch.com/news/conservative-leadership-polling-2024/

    Labour and LD voters preferred Cleverly to Badenoch

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/james-cleverly-tops-list-who-would-make-good-tory-leader-3-in-5-say-they-dont-care
    You cannot be serious relying on 2024 polls

    This is the classic choosing a poll that suits your narrative no matter how out of date or irrelevant

    Until you can provide current polling then your claims are worthless

    https://conservativehome.com/2026/03/05/shadow-cabinet-league-table-badenoch-may-not-be-popular-with-starmer-but-shes-dominant-with-conservatives/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,903

    That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.
    Yet people have demonstrated, repeatedly that you can get entire works back from it. Using automated stitching together of the big chunks of original text you can prod them to regurgitate.

    You can, in fact get one LLM to automate the process for you on another.

    At which point it’s a philosophical question - the LLM training transforms the information into an internal representation. But the book(s) can be reconstituted.

    The cherry on top is that they used pirate electronic versions
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,840

    AnneJGP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    When you have a machine that learns, how can you know what it does once it's started learning?
    Machine learning algorithms generally learn within very tight parameters. They're not learning like a child does. So in most cases it is easy to know what it does once it's started learning. LLMs, as discussed above, are somewhat more complicated, but we still understand how they work and what they might do.
    That's good, but everybody makes mistakes.
    It’s a probabilistic model. It will ALWAYS make mistakes.
    Just like humans.
    Non- determinancy is needed for creativity and innovation.
    That's how evolution and progress works.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Typical succinct comment from @NickPalmer that many should take on board
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,986

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
  • That’s also not true, the books themselves aren’t sitting inside ChatGPT. It’s been given a set of training data that contains these books (I assume) and it has been trained on the basis of them.

    The information in those books in inside the LLM. All of it. And can be retrieved, as has been demonstrated multiple times.

    An amusing riff - write a prompt to get one LLM to tease out the large chunks of a given work from another LLM and reassemble them.
    I don’t believe you are correct as I’ve said.

    It has “learned” from a set of training data containing the books. And it has derived information from said data. But that’s not the same as just having the books.

    It will still hallucinate and make up things that aren’t there. You cannot trust it to just blurt out a novel without very careful checking. Because it is probabilistic (something I wish the very worst rampers would understand), it CANNOT accurately represent a novel accurately and consistently.
    Yet people have demonstrated, repeatedly that you can get entire works back from it. Using automated stitching together of the big chunks of original text you can prod them to regurgitate.

    You can, in fact get one LLM to automate the process for you on another.

    At which point it’s a philosophical question - the LLM training transforms the information into an internal representation. But the book(s) can be reconstituted.

    The cherry on top is that they used pirate electronic versions
    I don’t want to keep repeating this point but it’s a probabilistic model.

    You cannot guarantee it will ever give you back correct information.

    You stated it can give you back a whole novel. I’m not saying it cannot do that but that’s essentially the result of a fluke as opposed to actual knowledge. Because as I explained you can only ever say to some degree of PROBABILITY that what it provides is what we judge to be correct.

    I know you and I disagree very strongly about AI but the facts are facts and we’d be good to understand those.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 5,597
    edited 10:42AM
    Barnesian said:

    AnneJGP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This will get the copyright lawyers excited.

    Every book you have ever read. Every novel that has ever been published. It is sitting inside ChatGPT right now.

    Word for word. Up to 90% of it. And OpenAI told a judge that was impossible.

    Researchers at Stony Brook University and Columbia Law School just proved it.

    They fine tuned GPT-4o, Gemini 2.5 Pro, and DeepSeek V3.1 on a simple task: expand a plot summary into full text. A normal use case. The kind of thing a writing assistant is built for. No hacking. No jailbreaking. No tricks.

    The models started reciting copyrighted books from memory.

    Not paraphrasing. Not summarizing. Entire pages reproduced verbatim. Single unbroken spans exceeding 460 words. Up to 85 to 90% of entire copyrighted novels. Word for word.

    Then it got worse.

    The researchers fine tuned the models on the works of only one author. Haruki Murakami. Just his novels. Nothing else.

    It unlocked verbatim recall of books from over 30 completely unrelated authors.

    One author's books opened the vault to everyone else's. The memorization was already inside the model the whole time. The fine tuning just removed the lock. Your book might be in there right now. You would never know it unless someone looked.

    Every safety measure the companies rely on failed. RLHF failed. System prompts failed. Output filters failed. The exact protections these companies cite in courtroom defenses did not stop a single page from being extracted.

    Then the researchers compared the three models. GPT-4o. Gemini. DeepSeek. Three different companies. Three different countries. They all memorized the same books in the same regions. The correlation was 0.90 or higher.

    That means they all trained on the same stolen data. The paper names the sources directly: LibGen and Books3. Over 190,000 copyrighted books obtained from pirated websites.

    Right now, authors and publishers have dozens of active lawsuits against OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. These companies have argued in court that their models learn patterns. Not copies. That no book is stored inside the weights.

    This paper says that is a lie. The books are still inside. And researchers just pulled them out.

    https://x.com/heynavtoor/status/2037638554374099409

    When you have a machine that learns, how can you know what it does once it's started learning?
    Machine learning algorithms generally learn within very tight parameters. They're not learning like a child does. So in most cases it is easy to know what it does once it's started learning. LLMs, as discussed above, are somewhat more complicated, but we still understand how they work and what they might do.
    That's good, but everybody makes mistakes.
    It’s a probabilistic model. It will ALWAYS make mistakes.
    Just like humans.
    Non- determinancy is needed for creativity and innovation.
    That's how evolution and progress works.
    It can be very useful for brainstorming and so on, I don’t disagree. In effect because its output is probabilistic it will provide a variety of things and when coming up with new ideas that is kind of what you want (albeit it’s not truly random).

    But the degree to which it can be trusted to provide accurate information is what I thought we were discussing. You’d want a novel it spat out to be accurate.

    As Matt Goodwin found, you cannot guarantee any of that. And never will be able to.

    I just wish people would try and understand its limits and get away from the hype, that’s all.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Is Starmer proposing withdrawal from the ECHR? Deportation of those with settled residence status? Banning the Burka? Banning Muslim prayers in public? Ending the 2 child benefit cap only for those in work? Abolishing inheritance tax? Bringing back more grammar schools via free schools? Increasing oil production? Scrapping EDI schemes? Scrapping net zero? Scrapping completely the family farm and family business tax not just raising the threshold for it? Not that I have noticed yet Farage has proposed all of those policies
    And that is why you are a de facto Faragist hiding behind a pro Cleverly agenda
    What utter rubbish, Reform lead the polls, if I was really a Faragist I would already have defected to Reform! Cleverly also offers a more moderate One Nation style agenda than Kemi's more Farage adjacent policies anyway
    One Nation conservatives are not going to win hearts
    You ARE a One Nation conservative
    Well isn't that the point? If even Big G prefers Kemi over Cleverly, it isn't clear exactly who would be enthused by Cleverly.
    Polls show Labour and LD voters prefer Cleverly over Kemi and without their tactical votes in Tory held seats more Tory seats will be lost to Reform
    Of course they do and why would that be other than they see Kemi as more of a threat

    Also please provide the polling
    Cleverly led with all voters throughout the Tory leadership contest and was neck and neck with Kemi with Tory voters. Kemi led Cleverly with Reform voters but she has not shown she can get them to vote Tory again.

    Labour and LD voters see Farage and Polanski as a threat not Kemi
    Where are these polls and the leadership is not relevant to May 26
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-more-likely-see-james-cleverly-pm-other-conservative-leadership-candidates-none-score-highly

    Cleverly had double the support with All voters Kemi had

    https://bmgresearch.com/news/conservative-leadership-polling-2024/

    Labour and LD voters preferred Cleverly to Badenoch

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/james-cleverly-tops-list-who-would-make-good-tory-leader-3-in-5-say-they-dont-care
    You cannot be serious relying on 2024 polls

    This is the classic choosing a poll that suits your narrative no matter how out of date or irrelevant

    Until you can provide current polling then your claims are worthless

    https://conservativehome.com/2026/03/05/shadow-cabinet-league-table-badenoch-may-not-be-popular-with-starmer-but-shes-dominant-with-conservatives/
    And from that article

    There is of course still a problem, as this site is often at pains to point out. Whilst you cannot renew a brand with a leader who is unpopular in the party and the country, you cannot renew a brand with a popular leader in the party and the country alone. The work to translate the Badenoch bounce into a Tory bounce, is a grinding toil that will have to continue, however high she charts now.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,718
    F1: If you backed Hadjar at 5.25 to beat Verstappen, you can now hedge by backing Verstappen at 1.66. Given the Red Bull's awful reliability, that may be worthwhile.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 26,055
    edited 10:44AM

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    And you're comfortable, are you, with a party whose activists describe Jews as "an abomination on the planet" without a word of condemnation from its leader, a party which has spent the best part of half a million quid fighting legal battles caused by its failure to comply with the Equality Act, a party which has welcomed anti-semites even Corbyn's Labour expelled?

    It is the worst type of populist party - led by a lying charlatan with few scruples and even fewer principles. Rather than being the opposite of Reform it is simply another version of the sort of stupid parties which are ruining this country's politics.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,059

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    It's not even fair to say Liz Truss kicked it off - I think Boris kicked it off when he threw some of the sanity out in 2019 - it just took a very long time for the issue to become obvious.

    Liz Truss probably accelerated it but I know I said back in 2020 that it was the last Tory Government...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,961
    eek said:

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
    Would be useful to have had a fact checker to confirm that the facts he used as the basis of the book actually had something to back them up.
    Of course.

    My point is that the “gotcha” question in the tweet is designed to mislead - you wouldn’t expect a book to be peer reviewed so “Goodwin can’t even name a single peer reviewer” is a meaningless statement that gives the wrong impression to the unwary
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 5,597
    edited 10:45AM
    The reality is that the Greens are anti-NATO and they’ve welcomed in the most unpleasant people from the Corbyn era.

    As somebody who was championing these sorts of people at the time and very wrongly, this can only end in disaster.
  • eek said:

    Roger said:

    Liz Truss has been on quite a journey! If anyone wonders why the Tories are tanking look no further! The News Agents take you on a trip to tthe darkest recesses of Liz Truss's imagination and it's not a pretty sight.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Y_ozT_p3g

    Liz Truss has nothing to do with the Tories.
    The Tories are tanking because they were shite. Liz Truss does indeed have very little to do with that.
    It's not even fair to say Liz Truss kicked it off - I think Boris kicked it off when he threw some of the sanity out in 2019 - it just took a very long time for the issue to become obvious.

    Liz Truss probably accelerated it but I know I said back in 2020 that it was the last Tory Government...
    I think I opined at the time that Johnson’s strategy was clearly brilliant for one election however it would surely end up in inevitable defeat the next time around.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,341

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    Here in Birmingham, I'd say the main factors driving the exodus are the bin strike, the bankrupt council and dissatisfaction with Labour's policy on Israel/Gaza.
    How many seats do you think the Gaza indies will pick up in Brum ?
    What can Brummie's councillors do about Gaza? I realise it's in a terrible, terrible mess, so there are some similarities but that's about as far as it goes.

    And Good Morning everyone. Lovely sunshine here, but an unusually cold West wind.
    Probably about as much as they can do,for the rest of Brums issues really.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,696
    Should be some good Demos today for anyone in the US.

    https://www.nokings.org/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    Roger said:

    Should be some good Demos today for anyone in the US.

    https://www.nokings.org/

    It won't make any difference to the mad Trump though will it ?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,696

    Roger said:

    Should be some good Demos today for anyone in the US.

    https://www.nokings.org/

    It won't make any difference to the mad Trump though will it ?
    Depends if it's as big as expected
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,961
    Foxy said:

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
    He claimed it was by demographic experts.
    Can you provide a link? I haven’t looked. But I’d be surprised that a trained academic (no matter how far he has strayed) would use a term of art like “peer reviewed” incorrectly
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,696
    Cyclefree said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    And you're comfortable, are you, with a party whose activists describe Jews as "an abomination on the planet" without a word of condemnation from its leader, a party which has spent the best part of half a million quid fighting legal battles caused by its failure to comply with the Equality Act, a party which has welcomed anti-semites even Corbyn's Labour expelled?

    It is the worst type of populist party - led by a lying charlatan with few scruples and even fewer principles. Rather than being the opposite of Reform it is simply another version of the sort of stupid parties which are ruining this country's politics.
    Who said that?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,570
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    Foxy said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    And you're comfortable, are you, with a party whose activists describe Jews as "an abomination on the planet" without a word of condemnation from its leader, a party which has spent the best part of half a million quid fighting legal battles caused by its failure to comply with the Equality Act, a party which has welcomed anti-semites even Corbyn's Labour expelled?

    It is the worst type of populist party - led by a lying charlatan with few scruples and even fewer principles. Rather than being the opposite of Reform it is simply another version of the sort of stupid parties which are ruining this country's politics.
    Who said that?
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/03/27/greens-for-palestine-antisemitic-whatsapp-messages/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,976
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Should be some good Demos today for anyone in the US.

    https://www.nokings.org/

    It won't make any difference to the mad Trump though will it ?
    Depends if it's as big as expected
    No matter how big

    How do you remove him ?
  • https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
    They generally are if they go through an academic publisher. Even at the end of the market where an (ex) academic is writing a "popular" book for the layman, you'd expect drafts to be read on a more informal basis by respected people in the field to avoid blunders.

    But Goodwin left serious academia years ago and is away with the far right fairies.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,665
    The contest for second place is hotting up.

    ElectionMaps polling average

    Ref 25.9%
    Lab 17.9%
    Con 17.7%
    Grn 17.4%
    LD 12.8%
    SNP 2.4%

    https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi
  • https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
    They generally are if they go through an academic publisher. Even at the end of the market where an (ex) academic is writing a "popular" book for the layman, you'd expect drafts to be read on a more informal basis by respected people in the field to avoid blunders.

    But Goodwin left serious academia years ago and is away with the far right fairies.
    I really think if you look back you can plot his fall to the rise of echo chambers on Twitter.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,327

    https://x.com/i_ammukhtar/status/2037808586626080886

    Matt GPT got absolutely cooked

    He used ChatGPT to show how a book he wrote was not written by AI. You can't make this up.

    He couldn't name a single person who peer-reviewed his book.

    Books aren’t typically peer reviewed
    No but those by academics are. He was a lecturer/professor of political science at the University of Kent until very recently
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