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Could Labour hold Gorton and Denton? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    Ed Davey just rattled Starmer into anger and lost it

    No way for a PM to react

    Well done Ed

    Ed Davey cannot air brush his part in austerity
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,271

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    If Parliament wants us to believe they live in the same real world that the rest of us do, then they must realise that spending that amount of money on what is essentially accommodation for them is completely absurd.

    If they want to make the case for the HoC as a national monument, then do so. Conserving it on those terms would cost a fraction of what they are proposing to spend.
    Don't pretend they need it as their workplace; they don't.
    You’re the kind of person who thinks it saves money to do things “on the cheap” multiple times rather than properly once, aren’t you?
    No.
    I am the kind of person who believe we should build things for a particular purpose.

    The Houses of Parliament simply don't work in the modern world, and trying to make them conform to current building standards in terms of safety, access, and energy efficiency is a fool's task.
    And attempting to do so while they are occupied is utter madness.
    That’s the same arguments the planners in the 50s and 60s used and look how that turned out
    Straw manning again.

    I have said nothing about the building which should house Parliament, other than it shouldn't be the current monument.
    And I'm entirely happy to conserve the monument at a reasonable cost.

    Some Victorian buildings are amenable to renovation to meet current building standards; this one really isn't.

    You are a luddite.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,114

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    All Kemi Badenoch does is Angry Whataboutery. Should she go?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,387
    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    “Westminster” is the same as the “Elysee Palace”, the “Kremlin” or the “White House” as a synonym for our Government. It has been a symbol of British power for centuries.
    Yes but not specifically the current building, which was completed in the mid Victorian era. Government has been based in the area for a lot longer, but that doesn't mean it must remain.

    Are all the football clubs who have moved to magnificent new stadia diminished because of it?
    On the whole, yes
    Really? Tell that to Arsenal fans, about to win the league, or Everton fans in their new home. New grounds have improved the experience for fans no end.
    I think that football fans on the whole think that Highbury and Goodison Park were better than their replacements. Winning the league has nothing to do with it.
    More historic. More memories. More emotion tied up.
    All yes.
    But better?
    Goodison Park wasn't better by any other criteria.
    Not least to the 13000+ extra who can now actually attend.
    And see the penalty area as well.
    It’s the same arguments for a new St James Park. I happen to support a new stadium for the reasons you give but I don’t expect it to be better, just more expensive and less accessible.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,873
    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    “Westminster” is the same as the “Elysee Palace”, the “Kremlin” or the “White House” as a synonym for our Government. It has been a symbol of British power for centuries.
    Yes but not specifically the current building, which was completed in the mid Victorian era. Government has been based in the area for a lot longer, but that doesn't mean it must remain.

    Are all the football clubs who have moved to magnificent new stadia diminished because of it?
    On the whole, yes
    Really? Tell that to Arsenal fans, about to win the league, or Everton fans in their new home. New grounds have improved the experience for fans no end.
    I think that football fans on the whole think that Highbury and Goodison Park were better than their replacements. Winning the league has nothing to do with it.
    More historic. More memories. More emotion tied up.
    All yes.
    But better?
    Goodison Park wasn't better by any other criteria.
    Not least to the 13000+ extra who can now actually attend.
    And see the penalty area as well.
    Thank you. I feel that Gallowgate is speaking for his own opinion, not that of thousands of fans who now get to experience modern stadia, with better toilets, food and drink outlets, views of the game etc.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,099

    Starmer is drowning and he knows it. He will get more like Gordon Brown as the end is nigh.



    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    5m
    Starmer's evasiveness on Doyle was actually worse than on Mandelson. Didn't even attempt to justify his actions. Just raged at the people asking the questions. Very clear he's worried about this.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2021560128991113418
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,387
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    If Parliament wants us to believe they live in the same real world that the rest of us do, then they must realise that spending that amount of money on what is essentially accommodation for them is completely absurd.

    If they want to make the case for the HoC as a national monument, then do so. Conserving it on those terms would cost a fraction of what they are proposing to spend.
    Don't pretend they need it as their workplace; they don't.
    You’re the kind of person who thinks it saves money to do things “on the cheap” multiple times rather than properly once, aren’t you?
    No.
    I am the kind of person who believe we should build things for a particular purpose.

    The Houses of Parliament simply don't work in the modern world, and trying to make them conform to current building standards in terms of safety, access, and energy efficiency is a fool's task.
    And attempting to do so while they are occupied is utter madness.
    That’s the same arguments the planners in the 50s and 60s used and look how that turned out
    Straw manning again.

    I have said nothing about the building which should house Parliament, other than it shouldn't be the current monument.
    And I'm entirely happy to conserve the monument at a reasonable cost.

    Some Victorian buildings are amenable to renovation to meet current building standards; this one really isn't.

    You are a luddite.
    I’m not a luddite at all.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,812
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Keir Starmer unleashed

    More

    More

    More

    Yes please

    More of angry Starmer is not a good look
    It's not a good look for one trick Kemi

    Eviscerated
    Keep on. You're getting it horribly wrong, but keep on...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,271
    DavidL said:

    God this is tedious. Move on.

    Leavitt on Epstein:

    "We're moving on from that."

    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/2021300225801953544
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,269

    Starmer is drowning and he knows it. He will get more like Gordon Brown as the end is nigh.



    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    5m
    Starmer's evasiveness on Doyle was actually worse than on Mandelson. Didn't even attempt to justify his actions. Just raged at the people asking the questions. Very clear he's worried about this.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2021560128991113418
    As he should be.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,652
    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,405
    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,290
    edited 12:34PM

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    “Westminster” is the same as the “Elysee Palace”, the “Kremlin” or the “White House” as a synonym for our Government. It has been a symbol of British power for centuries.
    Yes but not specifically the current building, which was completed in the mid Victorian era. Government has been based in the area for a lot longer, but that doesn't mean it must remain.

    Are all the football clubs who have moved to magnificent new stadia diminished because of it?
    On the whole, yes
    Really? Tell that to Arsenal fans, about to win the league, or Everton fans in their new home. New grounds have improved the experience for fans no end.
    I think that football fans on the whole think that Highbury and Goodison Park were better than their replacements. Winning the league has nothing to do with it.
    More historic. More memories. More emotion tied up.
    All yes.
    But better?
    Goodison Park wasn't better by any other criteria.
    Not least to the 13000+ extra who can now actually attend.
    And see the penalty area as well.
    It’s the same arguments for a new St James Park. I happen to support a new stadium for the reasons you give but I don’t expect it to be better, just more expensive and less accessible.
    St James is several decades more modern and fit for purpose than Goodison was.

    Plus. You can't really be more accessible as regards location than St James. Although lifts in the Milburn would help.
    The new ground is easier to reach for most than Goodison.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,391
    Christ alive. Starmer, a former DPP, has to be reminded by the Speaker, generally regarded as a bit of a wet blanket, that he shouldn't be discussing live cases before the courts. What a prat.

    And - compulsory CCTV in nurseries? Ugh.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    We'll see how improved she is in Gorton, in Wales in Scotland and in the Local Council Elections

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,387
    edited 12:33PM

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,873
    edited 12:33PM
    Brixian59 said:

    Ed Davey just rattled Starmer into anger and lost it

    No way for a PM to react

    Well done Ed

    Ed Davey cannot air brush his part in austerity
    What austerity? We could have followed the Canadian model for a true austerity approach.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    Starmer is drowning and he knows it. He will get more like Gordon Brown as the end is nigh.



    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    5m
    Starmer's evasiveness on Doyle was actually worse than on Mandelson. Didn't even attempt to justify his actions. Just raged at the people asking the questions. Very clear he's worried about this.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2021560128991113418
    As he should be.
    Dead cat Dan
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,099
    Possible betting implications:


    Rachel Cunliffe
    @rmcunliffe.bsky.social‬

    "History is women following behind with the bucket."

    So Morgan McSweeney has been replaced by Jill Cuthbertson and Vidhya Alakeson. Antonia Romeo is about to take over from Chris Wormald. Steph Driver may return to fill Tim Allan's vacancy.

    Sense that now there's a mess to mop up, get the women in

    ‪Rachel Cunliffe‬
    @rmcunliffe.bsky.social‬

    Hearing similar things about the Labour leadership - that it has to be Rayner or Powell or Mahmood, because we just can't have another clever boy at the helm with his clever boys club.

    Which is great. But it would be nice if women could get the top jobs that weren't just about clearing up the mess

    https://bsky.app/profile/rmcunliffe.bsky.social/post/3meldgkxgzk2k
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,652
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    We'll see how improved she is in Gorton, in Wales in Scotland and in the Local Council Elections

    The spotlight on those will be on labour
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    You're right on that count for anyone centre right or right Farage is the only game in town.

    Kemi is taking the Tories to complete extinction.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,652

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    Yes of course
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,896

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is the story here, the UK is letting foreigners take out billions in student loans? Obviously most of them are never getting paid back.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/revealed-4bn-annual-cost-of-loans-to-foreign-students/

    Its possible that some of them don't even bother doing the course but take out the loan, get a job and then disappear into the black economy.
    There’s definitely still plenty of fake colleges around, but I don’t know if the students there can get loans. It does appear to look an awful lot like the Quality Learing Center in Minneapolis.

    There’s a lot of twentysomething Brits in my part of the world at the moment, and one of the reasons to emigrate for a few years as a new graduate is to get away from the student loan burden and save money for a house deposit.
    Except you can’t get away from it and the SLC will chase you for the money when you return with fees and penalties.
    I think it depends on the country. I don't think the SLC is able to dock payrolls in the Middle East like it can in Australia or the US.
    They don’t dock payrolls but they still expect payment.
    Link for “fees and penalties”?
    Google it yourself. You get penalty arrears plus obviously compound interest on the whole amount.
    It was your assertion not mine. What are the penalties?
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jul/29/student-loans-company-penalty-interest-rate
    Something applied to 70 people.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,269
    edited 12:37PM

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    His problem is his evasiveness gives people more reason to hate him and he has precious little support left to shore up with whataboutery and angry 'how dare you, im awesome' stuff. The soundbites always damage with the wary/weary.
    Classic unpopular PM at PMQs problems.
    The opposition need to be careful not to give him a 'Gordon Browns handwriting on letters to soldiers bereaved families' sympathy out
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,391

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    I thought her comeback on Doyle - "it was on the front page of the Sunday Times" - was pretty good, but her questions were literally, "isn't he ashamed?" when normally PMQs only imply that very heavily.

    She needs to have more substantive questions along the lines of, "when did the Prime Minister find out he had appointed a friend of a paedophile to the Lords?" Something specific on detail related to the issue that she can hope to catch him in a lie on, or show that he had a chance to prevent the appointment.

    Starmer's answers were shockingly poor, though.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,556
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    You're right on that count for anyone centre right or right Farage is the only game in town.

    Kemi is taking the Tories to complete extinction.
    Any Tory leader has the same problem, you can't out Reform Reform so what exactly is the purpose of the tory party and how does that give you 100 seats minimum at the next election.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,236
    edited 12:40PM

    Possible betting implications:


    Rachel Cunliffe
    @rmcunliffe.bsky.social‬

    "History is women following behind with the bucket."

    So Morgan McSweeney has been replaced by Jill Cuthbertson and Vidhya Alakeson. Antonia Romeo is about to take over from Chris Wormald. Steph Driver may return to fill Tim Allan's vacancy.

    Sense that now there's a mess to mop up, get the women in

    ‪Rachel Cunliffe‬
    @rmcunliffe.bsky.social‬

    Hearing similar things about the Labour leadership - that it has to be Rayner or Powell or Mahmood, because we just can't have another clever boy at the helm with his clever boys club.

    Which is great. But it would be nice if women could get the top jobs that weren't just about clearing up the mess

    https://bsky.app/profile/rmcunliffe.bsky.social/post/3meldgkxgzk2k

    The one thing the past shows us is that whenever women are put in the top/senior political positions they do an amazing job that makes the country wealthy, respected, organised, well run and they do lots of nice things that make them very popular, stop wars and ensure equality for all.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,387
    edited 12:39PM
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is the story here, the UK is letting foreigners take out billions in student loans? Obviously most of them are never getting paid back.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/revealed-4bn-annual-cost-of-loans-to-foreign-students/

    Its possible that some of them don't even bother doing the course but take out the loan, get a job and then disappear into the black economy.
    There’s definitely still plenty of fake colleges around, but I don’t know if the students there can get loans. It does appear to look an awful lot like the Quality Learing Center in Minneapolis.

    There’s a lot of twentysomething Brits in my part of the world at the moment, and one of the reasons to emigrate for a few years as a new graduate is to get away from the student loan burden and save money for a house deposit.
    Except you can’t get away from it and the SLC will chase you for the money when you return with fees and penalties.
    I think it depends on the country. I don't think the SLC is able to dock payrolls in the Middle East like it can in Australia or the US.
    They don’t dock payrolls but they still expect payment.
    Link for “fees and penalties”?
    Google it yourself. You get penalty arrears plus obviously compound interest on the whole amount.
    It was your assertion not mine. What are the penalties?
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jul/29/student-loans-company-penalty-interest-rate
    Something applied to 70 people.
    That’s from 2017. And it doesn’t change the rules. The fact of the matter is that you’re supposed to volunteer payments if you go abroad and if you don’t you’re acting fraudulently and defaulting on your loan. Maybe you can get away with it in some circumstances but it’s not right.

    I graduated in 2013 and still have £20k+ of “debt”. I currently pay circa. £500 a month on top of other taxes, like I am supposed to.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,269
    edited 12:40PM

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    I thought her comeback on Doyle - "it was on the front page of the Sunday Times" - was pretty good, but her questions were literally, "isn't he ashamed?" when normally PMQs only imply that very heavily.

    She needs to have more substantive questions along the lines of, "when did the Prime Minister find out he had appointed a friend of a paedophile to the Lords?" Something specific on detail related to the issue that she can hope to catch him in a lie on, or show that he had a chance to prevent the appointment.

    Starmer's answers were shockingly poor, though.
    They need to be careful not to overpush and provoke sympathy - the 'others let him down, hes not a monster himself' reaction
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,030

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    I actually disagree with that.

    There are plenty of old buildings as important. I might start with the pre-discussed cathedrals, Dover Castle, or the Tower of London.

    I think one answer for the PoW is to follow the County Hall model - move out and repurpose the original if it cannot be done at a reasonable cost.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,818

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    “Westminster” is the same as the “Elysee Palace”, the “Kremlin” or the “White House” as a synonym for our Government. It has been a symbol of British power for centuries.
    Yes but not specifically the current building, which was completed in the mid Victorian era. Government has been based in the area for a lot longer, but that doesn't mean it must remain.

    Are all the football clubs who have moved to magnificent new stadia diminished because of it?
    On the whole, yes
    Really? Tell that to Arsenal fans, about to win the league, or Everton fans in their new home. New grounds have improved the experience for fans no end.
    I think that football fans on the whole think that Highbury and Goodison Park were better than their replacements. Winning the league has nothing to do with it.
    More historic. More memories. More emotion tied up.
    All yes.
    But better?
    Goodison Park wasn't better by any other criteria.
    Not least to the 13000+ extra who can now actually attend.
    And see the penalty area as well.
    It’s the same arguments for a new St James Park. I happen to support a new stadium for the reasons you give but I don’t expect it to be better, just more expensive and less accessible.
    As long as it’s not on Leazes Park, fine.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,290

    BIG LibDem announcement at 9.

    Remember that I had a vivid dream where LibDem, Green and Reform parties created an electoral pact to take on the LabCon...

    What was the big announcement?
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347
    eek said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    You're right on that count for anyone centre right or right Farage is the only game in town.

    Kemi is taking the Tories to complete extinction.
    Any Tory leader has the same problem, you can't out Reform Reform so what exactly is the purpose of the tory party and how does that give you 100 seats minimum at the next election.
    The Tory Party have lost many MPs to Reform.

    The One Nation Tories have 3 months to install a credible leader for the first time since Cameron, or Kemi will render the Tories the same as the original Liberal Party
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,269
    edited 12:41PM
    Andy_JS said:

    BIG LibDem announcement at 9.

    Remember that I had a vivid dream where LibDem, Green and Reform parties created an electoral pact to take on the LabCon...

    What was the big announcement?
    Bin the treasury and open a Dept for Growth
  • wembleytorwembleytor Posts: 4
    edited 12:43PM



    I think that football fans on the whole think that Highbury and Goodison Park were better than their replacements. Winning the league has nothing to do with it.

    Having been to half of the 92, and all of the top division save a couple of the newest ones, Goodison had easily the worst away end of any ground over a 20,000 capacity, a real step back in time. The Lower Bullens will not be missed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,099
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    6m
    The thing I find incredible is that some Labour MPs genuinely seem to think it will be possible for Starmer to "move on" from all this. After his evasiveness at PMQs we've now got a whole new media cycle that will be devoted to Doyle. Then it'll go back to Mandelson. And on...

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2021563558358831521
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,099

    Pippa Crerar

    @PippaCrerar

    Brutal attacks from opposition leaders on Starmer over this at PMQs.

    Tory Kemi Badenoch says Labour MPs are “stuck in government with hypocrites and paedophile apologists”.

    Lib Dem Ed Davey adds: “To appoint one paedophile supporter cannot be excused as misfortune. To appoint two shows a catastrophic lack of judgement.”

    Labour backbenches looking grim.

    https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/2021559666635862328
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,896

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is the story here, the UK is letting foreigners take out billions in student loans? Obviously most of them are never getting paid back.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/revealed-4bn-annual-cost-of-loans-to-foreign-students/

    Its possible that some of them don't even bother doing the course but take out the loan, get a job and then disappear into the black economy.
    There’s definitely still plenty of fake colleges around, but I don’t know if the students there can get loans. It does appear to look an awful lot like the Quality Learing Center in Minneapolis.

    There’s a lot of twentysomething Brits in my part of the world at the moment, and one of the reasons to emigrate for a few years as a new graduate is to get away from the student loan burden and save money for a house deposit.
    Except you can’t get away from it and the SLC will chase you for the money when you return with fees and penalties.
    I think it depends on the country. I don't think the SLC is able to dock payrolls in the Middle East like it can in Australia or the US.
    They don’t dock payrolls but they still expect payment.
    Link for “fees and penalties”?
    Google it yourself. You get penalty arrears plus obviously compound interest on the whole amount.
    It was your assertion not mine. What are the penalties?
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jul/29/student-loans-company-penalty-interest-rate
    I’d love to know the legislative basis for that, does anyone here have the details?
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,818

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    Durham Council Tax increase 0%, care precept 1.99%

    That will do me.

    I didn’t vote Reform but if they are able to deliver then I’ll consider moving from a Labour Party that is content to pick the pockets of the workers to reward the economically inactive and underutilised.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,391
    boulay said:

    Possible betting implications:


    Rachel Cunliffe
    @rmcunliffe.bsky.social‬

    "History is women following behind with the bucket."

    So Morgan McSweeney has been replaced by Jill Cuthbertson and Vidhya Alakeson. Antonia Romeo is about to take over from Chris Wormald. Steph Driver may return to fill Tim Allan's vacancy.

    Sense that now there's a mess to mop up, get the women in

    ‪Rachel Cunliffe‬
    @rmcunliffe.bsky.social‬

    Hearing similar things about the Labour leadership - that it has to be Rayner or Powell or Mahmood, because we just can't have another clever boy at the helm with his clever boys club.

    Which is great. But it would be nice if women could get the top jobs that weren't just about clearing up the mess

    https://bsky.app/profile/rmcunliffe.bsky.social/post/3meldgkxgzk2k

    The one thing the past shows us is that whenever women are put in the top/senior political positions they do an amazing job that makes the country wealthy, respected, organised, well run and they do lots of nice things that make them very popular, stop wars and ensure equality for all.
    Generally speaking Britain's/England's female monarchs have been better regarded than the blokes - Victoria, Elizabeth's I & II - but for Prime Ministers I wouldn't say it has quite worked out that way yet.

    Maybe a female Labour PM will be more successful than the last two female PMs and less divisive than the first one?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,582
    edited 12:45PM

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    His problem is his evasiveness gives people more reason to hate him and he has precious little support left to shore up with whataboutery and angry 'how dare you, im awesome' stuff. The soundbites always damage with the wary/weary.
    Classic unpopular PM at PMQs problems.
    The opposition need to be careful not to give him a 'Gordon Browns handwriting on letters to soldiers bereaved families' sympathy out
    What a pointless nonsense that PMQs was. Starmer didn't even pretend to answer any question. Every time he responded with whataboutery and "no lessons". I felt Ed got to the point in 1 question more than Kemi did in 6 and it seemed to rattle SKS somewhat but of course he didn't answer that either. Absolutely nothing new. No attempt to move the story on. Pointless.

    If politics is entertainment for ugly people some of our politicians need to remember to entertain. At least occasionally.
  • So all the people that usually think Keir did well think he did well then
  • Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is the story here, the UK is letting foreigners take out billions in student loans? Obviously most of them are never getting paid back.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/revealed-4bn-annual-cost-of-loans-to-foreign-students/

    Its possible that some of them don't even bother doing the course but take out the loan, get a job and then disappear into the black economy.
    There’s definitely still plenty of fake colleges around, but I don’t know if the students there can get loans. It does appear to look an awful lot like the Quality Learing Center in Minneapolis.

    There’s a lot of twentysomething Brits in my part of the world at the moment, and one of the reasons to emigrate for a few years as a new graduate is to get away from the student loan burden and save money for a house deposit.
    Except you can’t get away from it and the SLC will chase you for the money when you return with fees and penalties.
    I think it depends on the country. I don't think the SLC is able to dock payrolls in the Middle East like it can in Australia or the US.
    LOL good luck to anyone who tries docking payrolls in Dubai. You’d need to turn up in court for each case.

    With no local income tax, a lot of people (Americans mostly, but also people in sales jobs) earn a nominal salary and a bonus paid in actual cash.
    It's not very funny for the Treasury though, is it? The only reason these jobs are viable is because expats expect to able to flee back to the UK when the beheadings start or they need 20+ years of NHS care and a juicy state pension.

    It's classic socialise the costs, privatise that the profits. Should be dealt with one way or the other.
    Well maybe the Treasury should try and understand that the market for skilled high earners is now very much international?

    The state pension requires NI payments, so people who have lived their life abroad can’t come back and get a pension.

    However young graduates emigrating is a massive problem, it’s not only a brain drain, not only a student loan liability, but many of them will then stay abroad for various reasons, perhaps they’ll find their calling in life to be somewhere else?
    I had a rewarding career in the UK as a lawyer but I have encouraged my children to pursue careers that are more easily transferable to other countries, because it has been obvious from a long way out that there was, and still is, a significant risk of the UK getting stuck in a doom loop.

    They're in their mid to late 20s now. Hitting the peaks on that marginal tax rate graph. They know that neither Reform nor the Greens are the answer, but who can they vote for that is both honest about the country's finances and electable on a platform of achievable routes to fixing them ?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,736
    One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,236
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    I actually disagree with that.

    There are plenty of old buildings as important. I might start with the pre-discussed cathedrals, Dover Castle, or the Tower of London.

    I think one answer for the PoW is to follow the County Hall model - move out and repurpose the original if it cannot be done at a reasonable cost.
    We could replace all the foreign rubbish in the British Museum and only have British things in there - at least the tourist won’t be misled when they expect to see British objects and have to look at things from their countries.

    Then we can turn the PoW into the Imperial Museum and stack it full of all the things we legally bought and collected and preserved for the world when we were the most outward looking of countries.

    We could have floors dedicated to colonial wars, the spread of English language and laws and a small area to say sorry and point out the more questionable parts.

    The Imperial Museum will tie in our great Empire with great empires of the past whose finest works will all be on display together in one place.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,030
    Zia Yusuf (and Lee Anderson) can't tell the difference between a debating society and a University; going full MAGA.

    Aren't they supposed to have about 100 HQ staff now to catch this sort of thing?

    Bangor University have banned Reform and called us “racist, transphobic and homophobic”.

    Bangor receives £30 million in state funding a year, much of which comes from Reform-voting taxpayers.

    I am sure they won’t mind losing every penny of that state funding under a Reform government.

    After all, they wouldn’t want a racist’s money would they?

    https://x.com/ZiaYusufUK/status/2020948356483489905

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,493
    Starmer seems to think the best way to defend against attacks on his judgement is to make his character the issue instead.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,486
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    I actually disagree with that.

    There are plenty of old buildings as important. I might start with the pre-discussed cathedrals, Dover Castle, or the Tower of London.

    I think one answer for the PoW is to follow the County Hall model - move out and repurpose the original if it cannot be done at a reasonable cost.
    Wasn't County Hall converted to accommodation? I think most people in the shires and the north would welcome such a conversion for use as asylum accommodation. None of this out of sight, ought of mind.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,405

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    I thought her comeback on Doyle - "it was on the front page of the Sunday Times" - was pretty good, but her questions were literally, "isn't he ashamed?" when normally PMQs only imply that very heavily.

    She needs to have more substantive questions along the lines of, "when did the Prime Minister find out he had appointed a friend of a paedophile to the Lords?" Something specific on detail related to the issue that she can hope to catch him in a lie on, or show that he had a chance to prevent the appointment.

    Starmer's answers were shockingly poor, though.
    They need to be careful not to overpush and provoke sympathy - the 'others let him down, hes not a monster himself' reaction
    I agree - they risk Starmer getting some sympathy if they think he's being punished for others' crimes. Starmer had no connection with Epstein whatsoever, obviously, and more generally despite his errors it's absolutely clear that he has no truck with padeophiles or other sex offenders. But it's as if some on the right are encouraging the view that Starmer was himself a perpetrator.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,703

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    “Westminster” is the same as the “Elysee Palace”, the “Kremlin” or the “White House” as a synonym for our Government. It has been a symbol of British power for centuries.
    I agree 'Birmingham' (or almost anywhere else) doesn't have quite the same ring. OTOH perhaps the Scottish politicians would find it useful not to be blaming Westminster for things.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,290

    One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.

    Lord Longford famously believed that you should hate the sin and love the sinner, which is why he spent many years visiting Myra Hindley in prison.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,030
    Taz said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    Durham Council Tax increase 0%, care precept 1.99%

    That will do me.

    I didn’t vote Reform but if they are able to deliver then I’ll consider moving from a Labour Party that is content to pick the pockets of the workers to reward the economically inactive and underutilised.
    They need to be talking about that loudly as it counters the general narrative.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    I thought her comeback on Doyle - "it was on the front page of the Sunday Times" - was pretty good, but her questions were literally, "isn't he ashamed?" when normally PMQs only imply that very heavily.

    She needs to have more substantive questions along the lines of, "when did the Prime Minister find out he had appointed a friend of a paedophile to the Lords?" Something specific on detail related to the issue that she can hope to catch him in a lie on, or show that he had a chance to prevent the appointment.

    Starmer's answers were shockingly poor, though.
    Kemi is handed her questions before PMQ

    She had to agree to that because her own efforts were dire.

    She started by having them on 6 folds that she opened, a terrible look

    She now reds them off notes. Fundamentally if you watch her she doesn't listen. She doesn't make notes or changes like Starmer.

    She relies on burghardt, Philp or Pritti normally to prompt her.

    She makes the odd decent ore scripted joke, but she's be crap at poker as its preface by a weird quite arrogant face movement.... She even says "wait for it" as she reads the script.

    Starmer is not a good pmq performer but he wins far more than not even when she has own goals

    She needs to watch William Hague

    James Cleverly would be far better at Pmq would not need a script, could react and be flexible and actually get blows in.

    Cleverly v Rayner who is razor sharp would be A list entertaining
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,493
    https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/2021558627883184454

    The Prime Minister says he changed the Labour Party.

    He's right. He changed it from a party of principle, workers and peace, to a party of patronage, the establishment and war.

    Poverty, corruption and complicity in genocide. That will be his government's legacy.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,556
    edited 12:54PM
    Taz said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    Durham Council Tax increase 0%, care precept 1.99%

    That will do me.

    I didn’t vote Reform but if they are able to deliver then I’ll consider moving from a Labour Party that is content to pick the pockets of the workers to reward the economically inactive and underutilised.
    That's actually idiotic by Reform, they should be increasing things now while the election is years away so they have a surplus ready to cut things later...

    Actually it's even in the Northern Echo reporting - https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/25844846.durham-reform-council-change-council-tax-rise-plans/

    If we do not increase council tax in 2026/27 the council will face an increased budget deficit of £6.1 million, for which the council will be unable to identify suitable savings at this stage.”

    The council’s budget proposals suggest the authority faces a budget deficit of around £9.5 million in the next year and an additional deficit of around £42 million for the following three years.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,736
    Andy_JS said:

    One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.

    Lord Longford famously believed that you should hate the sin and love the sinner, which is why he spent many years visiting Myra Hindley in prison.
    That is certainly the Christian approach, which has much to admire about it. Hindley, though. That really is taking it to extremes.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,391
    edited 12:53PM

    One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.

    The answer will reasonably vary depending on circumstances. How contrite they are, and determined to reform themselves.

    Epstein, for example, showed no contrition, and Mandelson seems to have treated him as the victim in the situation. Certainly that is not appropriate behaviour.

    With Doyle, it seems that his paedophile friend was convicted for a second time, so that also indicates a lack of contrition and resolution to change.

    It's difficult certainly but I think that is where I would draw the line.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,818
    I rarely watch PMQ’s, been out in spite of the weather. But catching up on Twitter this response to Ed Davey from a clearly rattled Sturmer is a disgrace.

    https://x.com/bbcpolitics/status/2021564191589470661?s=61
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347
    Andy_JS said:

    One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.

    Lord Longford famously believed that you should hate the sin and love the sinner, which is why he spent many years visiting Myra Hindley in prison.
    Maybe Lord Longford would have advised Kemi to have the man sat next to her today.

    Given the subject matter Chris Pincher couldn't have been worse
  • glwglw Posts: 10,738

    Starmer is drowning and he knows it. He will get more like Gordon Brown as the end is nigh.



    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    5m
    Starmer's evasiveness on Doyle was actually worse than on Mandelson. Didn't even attempt to justify his actions. Just raged at the people asking the questions. Very clear he's worried about this.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2021560128991113418
    He should be worried. Imagine if a third person Starmer's appointed is found to be linked to a sex offender? I don't see how he could survive that.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    I thought her comeback on Doyle - "it was on the front page of the Sunday Times" - was pretty good, but her questions were literally, "isn't he ashamed?" when normally PMQs only imply that very heavily.

    She needs to have more substantive questions along the lines of, "when did the Prime Minister find out he had appointed a friend of a paedophile to the Lords?" Something specific on detail related to the issue that she can hope to catch him in a lie on, or show that he had a chance to prevent the appointment.

    Starmer's answers were shockingly poor, though.
    They need to be careful not to overpush and provoke sympathy - the 'others let him down, hes not a monster himself' reaction
    I agree - they risk Starmer getting some sympathy if they think he's being punished for others' crimes. Starmer had no connection with Epstein whatsoever, obviously, and more generally despite his errors it's absolutely clear that he has no truck with padeophiles or other sex offenders. But it's as if some on the right are encouraging the view that Starmer was himself a perpetrator.
    Spot on

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,269
    edited 12:54PM

    Just watched PMQs, for the first time in ages. Kemi didn't really lay a glove on Starmer - she's not very good at coming back when he doesn't directly answer her question. Given the week he's had, Starmer was pretty confident and assured, as well as showing a bit of fight.

    I thought her comeback on Doyle - "it was on the front page of the Sunday Times" - was pretty good, but her questions were literally, "isn't he ashamed?" when normally PMQs only imply that very heavily.

    She needs to have more substantive questions along the lines of, "when did the Prime Minister find out he had appointed a friend of a paedophile to the Lords?" Something specific on detail related to the issue that she can hope to catch him in a lie on, or show that he had a chance to prevent the appointment.

    Starmer's answers were shockingly poor, though.
    They need to be careful not to overpush and provoke sympathy - the 'others let him down, hes not a monster himself' reaction
    I agree - they risk Starmer getting some sympathy if they think he's being punished for others' crimes. Starmer had no connection with Epstein whatsoever, obviously, and more generally despite his errors it's absolutely clear that he has no truck with padeophiles or other sex offenders. But it's as if some on the right are encouraging the view that Starmer was himself a perpetrator.
    Therein lies the danger for the opposition- conflating the disgust at whats happened and Starmers personal unpopularity.
    Push that hes not up to the job, not fit to lead.
    We are all cspable of independently drawing our own conclusions on his character
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,879

    One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.

    There is a difference as to whether you are in public life or not. A politician has an obligation to behave in accordance with the expected rules of public office.

    A private citizen can absolutely choose their own friends. A politician or senior political appointee has to be held to higher standards.

    Mandelson clearly didn't meet those standards. Doyle clearly didn't either.

    Starmer did not know how to ask the right question. Or deliberately chose not to.

    I have had a number of former friends and acquaintances convicted of serious abuse related charges. I am no longer in contact with any of them. And I would be willing to talk to them but maintaining a friendship would depend on how far they had come.

    But I don't hold public office nor do I ever intend to.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,566
    MattW said:

    Zia Yusuf (and Lee Anderson) can't tell the difference between a debating society and a University; going full MAGA.

    Aren't they supposed to have about 100 HQ staff now to catch this sort of thing?

    Bangor University have banned Reform and called us “racist, transphobic and homophobic”.

    Bangor receives £30 million in state funding a year, much of which comes from Reform-voting taxpayers.

    I am sure they won’t mind losing every penny of that state funding under a Reform government.

    After all, they wouldn’t want a racist’s money would they?

    https://x.com/ZiaYusufUK/status/2020948356483489905

    Also apparently unable to distinguish between a Reform government and racists, or state provided funding and money belonging to them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,818
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    Durham Council Tax increase 0%, care precept 1.99%

    That will do me.

    I didn’t vote Reform but if they are able to deliver then I’ll consider moving from a Labour Party that is content to pick the pockets of the workers to reward the economically inactive and underutilised.
    They need to be talking about that loudly as it counters the general narrative.
    They do although their increases as a rule are lower than the other parties.

    Also they need to crack on with the changes to the bin collections as I need my glass bottle tub for growing potatoes.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,933
    MattW said:

    Zia Yusuf (and Lee Anderson) can't tell the difference between a debating society and a University; going full MAGA.

    Aren't they supposed to have about 100 HQ staff now to catch this sort of thing?

    Bangor University have banned Reform and called us “racist, transphobic and homophobic”.

    Bangor receives £30 million in state funding a year, much of which comes from Reform-voting taxpayers.

    I am sure they won’t mind losing every penny of that state funding under a Reform government.

    After all, they wouldn’t want a racist’s money would they?

    https://x.com/ZiaYusufUK/status/2020948356483489905

    So Reform are using the Trump playbook . If Reform get in the country is fxcked .
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    So all the people that usually think Keir did well think he did well then

    His benches did that's the most important thing

    The Tory benches had the opposite feeling about their Leader... Equally important
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,818
    edited 12:57PM
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    Durham Council Tax increase 0%, care precept 1.99%

    That will do me.

    I didn’t vote Reform but if they are able to deliver then I’ll consider moving from a Labour Party that is content to pick the pockets of the workers to reward the economically inactive and underutilised.
    That's actually idiotic by Reform, they should be increasing things now while the election is years away so they have a surplus ready to cut things later...

    Actually it's even in the Northern Echo reporting - https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/25844846.durham-reform-council-change-council-tax-rise-plans/

    If we do not increase council tax in 2026/27 the council will face an increased budget deficit of £6.1 million, for which the council will be unable to identify suitable savings at this stage.”

    The council’s budget proposals suggest the authority faces a budget deficit of around £9.5 million in the next year and an additional deficit of around £42 million for the following three years.


    Somehow I didn’t think you’d be a fan, whatever they did. 😉

    The increase was going to be 2% but that’s changed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,690

    One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.

    One of my boyhood memories is of one of our Scoutmasters being jailed for playing silly whatsits with one of the scouts. General opinion among the boys was that it was six and two threes, but anyway the chap got two years. My father was on the troop’s management committee and when the jail term was over helped the (former) scoutmaster rehabilitate himself. IIRC he emigrated to New Zealand.u
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,879
    Taz said:

    I rarely watch PMQ’s, been out in spite of the weather. But catching up on Twitter this response to Ed Davey from a clearly rattled Sturmer is a disgrace.

    https://x.com/bbcpolitics/status/2021564191589470661?s=61

    Absolutely

    Starmer is fatally tainted by all of this.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,879
    Brixian59 said:

    So all the people that usually think Keir did well think he did well then

    His benches did that's the most important thing

    The Tory benches had the opposite feeling about their Leader... Equally important
    Please stop making things up. It isn't constructive.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,427
    @TomMcTague
    Exclusive: Gordon Brown weighs into Epstein scandal.

    —Demands full UK police investigation into Epstein’s enablers in Britain
    —Sets out questions the Met must answer over failures to investigate people named in files
    —Calls for Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor to be interviewed by police over Epstein flights from Stansted

    Read Brown's extraordinary intervention in this week's
    @newstatesman
    and on the website today

    https://x.com/TomMcTague/status/2021567873424953592?s=20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,582
    I surely hope that Piglet is bailing harder than Starmer: or Starmer is at least more aware. If only a little bit.

    The rain rain rain came down down down
    In rushing rising riv'lets
    Till the river crept out of its bed
    And crept right into Piglet's

    For Piglet he was frightened with quite a rightful fright
    And so in desperation a message he did write
    He placed it in a bottle and it floated out of sight

    And the rain rain rain came down down down
    So Piglet started bailing
    He was unaware atop his chair
    While bailing he was sailing
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,652

    Brixian59 said:

    So all the people that usually think Keir did well think he did well then

    His benches did that's the most important thing

    The Tory benches had the opposite feeling about their Leader... Equally important
    Please stop making things up. It isn't constructive.
    Even the labour party must be embarrassed by some of his posts
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,818
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH

    It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way

    There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling

    You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this

    That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice

    Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
    One thing you can be sure of, as will most projects in this country, there will be a colossal overspend.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,556
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Starmer reduced to angry whataboutery

    It is not a good look

    Time his mps found an alternative

    Weak

    Very weak

    Kemi neutered

    Since you arrived on here she has improved to the point she now is the preferred PM to Starmer by 62% to 38%

    You are not 'winning here,'

    https://x.com/i/status/2021311990392852903
    Kemi and the Tories are a total irrelevance irrespective of Starmer. Farage is the only game in town
    Durham Council Tax increase 0%, care precept 1.99%

    That will do me.

    I didn’t vote Reform but if they are able to deliver then I’ll consider moving from a Labour Party that is content to pick the pockets of the workers to reward the economically inactive and underutilised.
    That's actually idiotic by Reform, they should be increasing things now while the election is years away so they have a surplus ready to cut things later...

    Actually it's even in the Northern Echo reporting - https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/25844846.durham-reform-council-change-council-tax-rise-plans/

    If we do not increase council tax in 2026/27 the council will face an increased budget deficit of £6.1 million, for which the council will be unable to identify suitable savings at this stage.”

    The council’s budget proposals suggest the authority faces a budget deficit of around £9.5 million in the next year and an additional deficit of around £42 million for the following three years.


    Somehow I didn’t think you’d be a fan, whatever they did. 😉

    The increase was going to be 2% but that’s changed.
    Look at my first paragraph - my statement was it's idiotic because you could play politics better than they are - I would be aiming to front load the tax increases while you can blame Labour while pocketing the gains so that you could reduce things as the next set of council elections come along.

    So I would have increases of 5%, 5%, 3%, 2% rather than 0%, 5%, 5%, 5% because I suspect they are creating problems for themselves down the line...

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,812
    AnneJGP said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    “Westminster” is the same as the “Elysee Palace”, the “Kremlin” or the “White House” as a synonym for our Government. It has been a symbol of British power for centuries.
    I agree 'Birmingham' (or almost anywhere else) doesn't have quite the same ring. OTOH perhaps the Scottish politicians would find it useful not to be blaming Westminster for things.
    Not everyone in Labour sticking their head in the sand over Epstein.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,669
    Scott_xP said:

    @TomMcTague
    Exclusive: Gordon Brown weighs into Epstein scandal.

    —Demands full UK police investigation into Epstein’s enablers in Britain
    —Sets out questions the Met must answer over failures to investigate people named in files
    —Calls for Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor to be interviewed by police over Epstein flights from Stansted

    Read Brown's extraordinary intervention in this week's
    @newstatesman
    and on the website today

    https://x.com/TomMcTague/status/2021567873424953592?s=20

    According to Moonbat, Brown was more or less the cause of it all:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/feb/10/peter-mandelson-new-labour-jeffrey-epstein-corporate-power
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,652
    Scott_xP said:

    @TomMcTague
    Exclusive: Gordon Brown weighs into Epstein scandal.

    —Demands full UK police investigation into Epstein’s enablers in Britain
    —Sets out questions the Met must answer over failures to investigate people named in files
    —Calls for Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor to be interviewed by police over Epstein flights from Stansted

    Read Brown's extraordinary intervention in this week's
    @newstatesman
    and on the website today

    https://x.com/TomMcTague/status/2021567873424953592?s=20

    He's right
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,057
    Scott_xP said:

    @TomMcTague
    Exclusive: Gordon Brown weighs into Epstein scandal.

    —Demands full UK police investigation into Epstein’s enablers in Britain
    —Sets out questions the Met must answer over failures to investigate people named in files
    —Calls for Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor to be interviewed by police over Epstein flights from Stansted

    Read Brown's extraordinary intervention in this week's
    @newstatesman
    and on the website today

    https://x.com/TomMcTague/status/2021567873424953592?s=20

    That's the best news that Andrew and similar have had in ages - Dr Doom is attacking them.

    They'll be exonerated now for sure.

    By the same token, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph has backed Starmer, so he's still in grave danger.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2026/02/10/the-starmer-palace-coup-is-a-national-disgrace/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,290
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH

    It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way

    There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling

    You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this

    That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice

    Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
    One thing you can be sure of, as will most projects in this country, there will be a colossal overspend.
    IIRC the 2012 London Olympics was delivered on time and on budget, so it can be done.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,269
    No 'senior tory source' saying Kemi must do better for a while.
    Almost like he/(and)she arent Tories anymore
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,387
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is the story here, the UK is letting foreigners take out billions in student loans? Obviously most of them are never getting paid back.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/revealed-4bn-annual-cost-of-loans-to-foreign-students/

    Its possible that some of them don't even bother doing the course but take out the loan, get a job and then disappear into the black economy.
    There’s definitely still plenty of fake colleges around, but I don’t know if the students there can get loans. It does appear to look an awful lot like the Quality Learing Center in Minneapolis.

    There’s a lot of twentysomething Brits in my part of the world at the moment, and one of the reasons to emigrate for a few years as a new graduate is to get away from the student loan burden and save money for a house deposit.
    Except you can’t get away from it and the SLC will chase you for the money when you return with fees and penalties.
    I think it depends on the country. I don't think the SLC is able to dock payrolls in the Middle East like it can in Australia or the US.
    They don’t dock payrolls but they still expect payment.
    Link for “fees and penalties”?
    Google it yourself. You get penalty arrears plus obviously compound interest on the whole amount.
    It was your assertion not mine. What are the penalties?
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jul/29/student-loans-company-penalty-interest-rate
    I’d love to know the legislative basis for that, does anyone here have the details?
    It's called a loan agreement, i.e. a contract.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,818
    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TomMcTague
    Exclusive: Gordon Brown weighs into Epstein scandal.

    —Demands full UK police investigation into Epstein’s enablers in Britain
    —Sets out questions the Met must answer over failures to investigate people named in files
    —Calls for Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor to be interviewed by police over Epstein flights from Stansted

    Read Brown's extraordinary intervention in this week's
    @newstatesman
    and on the website today

    https://x.com/TomMcTague/status/2021567873424953592?s=20

    That's the best news that Andrew and similar have had in ages - Dr Doom is attacking them.

    They'll be exonerated now for sure.

    By the same token, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph has backed Starmer, so he's still in grave danger.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2026/02/10/the-starmer-palace-coup-is-a-national-disgrace/
    All we need is Cramer to come out in support.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,504
    edited 1:14PM
    Pmqs round 2 was never going to.match up to the Round 1 where Starmer knocked off his feet twice but just not quite enough for a technical.ko.
    Round 2 had Starmer struggling about yet another appalling decision for which he had no answer.... and just bullshitted nonsense.

    Mandleson is brewing up in the background...
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,162
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH

    It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way

    There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling

    You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this

    That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice

    Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
    With Leon on this one.

    (Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,486

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is the story here, the UK is letting foreigners take out billions in student loans? Obviously most of them are never getting paid back.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/revealed-4bn-annual-cost-of-loans-to-foreign-students/

    Its possible that some of them don't even bother doing the course but take out the loan, get a job and then disappear into the black economy.
    There’s definitely still plenty of fake colleges around, but I don’t know if the students there can get loans. It does appear to look an awful lot like the Quality Learing Center in Minneapolis.

    There’s a lot of twentysomething Brits in my part of the world at the moment, and one of the reasons to emigrate for a few years as a new graduate is to get away from the student loan burden and save money for a house deposit.
    Except you can’t get away from it and the SLC will chase you for the money when you return with fees and penalties.
    I think it depends on the country. I don't think the SLC is able to dock payrolls in the Middle East like it can in Australia or the US.
    They don’t dock payrolls but they still expect payment.
    Link for “fees and penalties”?
    Google it yourself. You get penalty arrears plus obviously compound interest on the whole amount.
    It was your assertion not mine. What are the penalties?
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jul/29/student-loans-company-penalty-interest-rate
    I’d love to know the legislative basis for that, does anyone here have the details?
    It's called a loan agreement, i.e. a contract.
    Penalties in contracts are usually seen as unlawful unless there is a legitimate interest (geddit). Usually its purpose is to enforce the main terms but such penalties can be challenged if they fall outside the narrow definition of LI. See Cavendish Square Holding BV v Makdessi.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,269

    Pmqs round 2 was never going to.match up to the Round 1 where Starmer knocked off his feet twice but just not quite enough for a technical.ko.
    Round 2 had Starmer struggling about yet another appalling decision for which he had no answer.... and just bullshitted nonsense.

    Mandleson is brewing up in the background...

    Doyle isnt the instant recognition that Mandy was, it needs a week or two to filter into the lublic connsciousness
    PMQs will return to a cinema near you 25 Feb
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,652

    Pmqs round 2 was never going to.match up to the Round 1 where Starmer knocked off his feet twice but just not quite enough for a technical.ko.
    Round 2 had Starmer struggling about yet another appalling decision for which he had no answer.... and just bullshitted nonsense.

    Mandleson is brewing up in the background...

    The two are coming together and Starmer still says he didn't know
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,387
    edited 1:20PM
    Battlebus said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is the story here, the UK is letting foreigners take out billions in student loans? Obviously most of them are never getting paid back.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/revealed-4bn-annual-cost-of-loans-to-foreign-students/

    Its possible that some of them don't even bother doing the course but take out the loan, get a job and then disappear into the black economy.
    There’s definitely still plenty of fake colleges around, but I don’t know if the students there can get loans. It does appear to look an awful lot like the Quality Learing Center in Minneapolis.

    There’s a lot of twentysomething Brits in my part of the world at the moment, and one of the reasons to emigrate for a few years as a new graduate is to get away from the student loan burden and save money for a house deposit.
    Except you can’t get away from it and the SLC will chase you for the money when you return with fees and penalties.
    I think it depends on the country. I don't think the SLC is able to dock payrolls in the Middle East like it can in Australia or the US.
    They don’t dock payrolls but they still expect payment.
    Link for “fees and penalties”?
    Google it yourself. You get penalty arrears plus obviously compound interest on the whole amount.
    It was your assertion not mine. What are the penalties?
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jul/29/student-loans-company-penalty-interest-rate
    I’d love to know the legislative basis for that, does anyone here have the details?
    It's called a loan agreement, i.e. a contract.
    Penalties in contracts are usually seen as unlawful unless there is a legitimate interest (geddit). Usually its purpose is to enforce the main terms but such penalties can be challenged if they fall outside the narrow definition of LI. See Cavendish Square Holding BV v Makdessi.
    Yes, I am aware as I am a commercial solicitor. The test is that they can’t be out of all proportion to the innocent party’s legitimate interests. Not really relevant here.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,742
    edited 1:22PM

    Taz said:

    I rarely watch PMQ’s, been out in spite of the weather. But catching up on Twitter this response to Ed Davey from a clearly rattled Sturmer is a disgrace.

    https://x.com/bbcpolitics/status/2021564191589470661?s=61

    Absolutely

    Starmer is fatally tainted by all of this.
    It was a crap answer to a very well constructed question from Davey (but I would say that wouldn’t I), but I don’t think it was particularly outrageous. Angry whataboutery is pretty normal PMQs fare.

    Starmer should have channeled @taz and called him the hammer of the subpostmasters. That scandal would be a bit more on point given it’s about the question of proper ministerial due diligence, criminal establishment behaviour and being lied to.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,873
    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    I rarely watch PMQ’s, been out in spite of the weather. But catching up on Twitter this response to Ed Davey from a clearly rattled Sturmer is a disgrace.

    https://x.com/bbcpolitics/status/2021564191589470661?s=61

    Absolutely

    Starmer is fatally tainted by all of this.
    It was a crap answer to a very well constructed question from Davey (but I would say that wouldn’t I), but I don’t think it was particularly outrageous. Angry whataboutery is pretty normal PMQs fare.
    "I'll take no lessons from XXX" usually means I'm bang to rights but your lot did it too/first.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 347

    No 'senior tory source' saying Kemi must do better for a while.
    Almost like he/(and)she arent Tories anymore

    All the senior Tories have fecked off to Reform
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,838
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH

    It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way

    There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling

    You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this

    That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice

    Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
    With Leon on this one.

    (Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
    I'm very much in the 'move the capital to somewhere more central' lobby. But one argument in favour of the 'keep parliament in the PoW' camp is that if we were to have a new parliament building, it would inevitably be a disappointing embarrassment. Like the Scottish parliament, only more expensive.
    (That said, IIRC, the Welsh parliament building is actually rather good...)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,030
    edited 1:23PM
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH

    It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way

    There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling

    You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this

    That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice

    Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
    Nope. Accessibility is identified as 6%.

    If you really think accessibility is about "wheelchairs", then you are atill bobbing about on fantasy island in about 1972 :smile: .

    The huge majority of accessibility is about more thought, not more money.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,352

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see the currently proposed cost of the latest "Restore the Palace of Westminster" proposal is up to £40 billion over up to 61 years.

    Article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/feb/05/restoring-the-palace-of-westminster-could-cost-eye-watering-40bn
    Website: https://www.restorationandrenewal.uk/about-us/recommended-way-forward

    Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?

    This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).

    That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.

    To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.

    That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
    I have three reactions there.

    Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.

    Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.

    Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
    Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.

    We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
    The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.

    If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
    Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.

    And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
    If Parliament wants us to believe they live in the same real world that the rest of us do, then they must realise that spending that amount of money on what is essentially accommodation for them is completely absurd.

    If they want to make the case for the HoC as a national monument, then do so. Conserving it on those terms would cost a fraction of what they are proposing to spend.
    Don't pretend they need it as their workplace; they don't.
    You’re the kind of person who thinks it saves money to do things “on the cheap” multiple times rather than properly once, aren’t you?
    No.
    I am the kind of person who believe we should build things for a particular purpose.

    The Houses of Parliament simply don't work in the modern world, and trying to make them conform to current building standards in terms of safety, access, and energy efficiency is a fool's task.
    And attempting to do so while they are occupied is utter madness.
    That’s the same arguments the planners in the 50s and 60s used and look how that turned out
    We had a lot of economic growth in the 50s and 60s and living standards improved dramatically over that time.

    What's your point?
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