Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?
This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).
That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.
To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.
That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
I have three reactions there.
Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.
Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.
Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.
We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.
If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.
And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
If Parliament wants us to believe they live in the same real world that the rest of us do, then they must realise that spending that amount of money on what is essentially accommodation for them is completely absurd.
If they want to make the case for the HoC as a national monument, then do so. Conserving it on those terms would cost a fraction of what they are proposing to spend. Don't pretend they need it as their workplace; they don't.
You’re the kind of person who thinks it saves money to do things “on the cheap” multiple times rather than properly once, aren’t you?
No. I am the kind of person who believe we should build things for a particular purpose.
The Houses of Parliament simply don't work in the modern world, and trying to make them conform to current building standards in terms of safety, access, and energy efficiency is a fool's task. And attempting to do so while they are occupied is utter madness.
That’s the same arguments the planners in the 50s and 60s used and look how that turned out
We had a lot of economic growth in the 50s and 60s and living standards improved dramatically over that time.
What's your point?
They knocked down loads of beautiful buildings and replaced them with utter dogshit
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot. 🤷♂️
Still looking for it, as everyone else is, I guess
I found it
Idea 1 - replacement the treasury with something focused on growth - hmm may work Idea 2 - locate the new department in Birmingham - nope that’s a mistake.
As I said you split the treasury - move the day to day bits out of London so what’s left is the growth building department in London
* were Parliament to be outside London the opposite is true, leave the treasury there but move the other bits to where Parliament is moved to
Last time any government seriously took on the Treasury was when Harold Wilson made George Brown Secretary of State for Economic Affairs. That didn't work out too well. Though GB's propensity for becoming "tired and emotional" possibly didn't help.
One question that arises from the Mandelson and Doyle controversies for me is, is it always morally indefensible to remain friends with a convicted sex offender? Luckily this is not a situation I have ever faced, I should add. But say it was a family member, not a friend, I'm not sure I would say that the only decent course of action would be to abandon the person completely. In fact, I might think worse of somebody who didn't stand by their son or brother to some extent in this sort of situation. You don't choose your family but you do choose your friends, of course. But still, if the goal is to rehabilitate sex offenders don't they need a network of friends for that to happen? Is dropping somebody to protect your own career really a morally superior course of action? Not to excuse anything in the current scandals, and the focus should always be on the victims primarily, but I'm not sure it is as completely black and white as some would make out.
I think a criminal justice system, indeed a functioning society, needs to have the possibility of rehabilitation and forgiveness. Yes, people with a variety of convictions need to be re-integrated into society, after they have served their sentence. That will necessarily mean some people being friends with convicted sex offenders.
But that comes with caveats. Maybe politicians need to be purer in their approach than average members of the public. There's also a difference between maintaining a friendship with someone and, say, actively campaigning for them to be elected (as with Lord Doyle campaigning for Morton after he was charged). Critical to this is repentance: has the offender seen the error of his or her ways? Epstein clearly hadn't! He just went straight back to doing the same things and blamed the victims in emails to people like Steve Bannon and Noam Chomsky. If the emails with Mandelson had shown Epstein apologetic and admitting his guilt and Mandelson was helping him back on to the straight and narrow, that might have been different, but instead they show Epstein and Mandelson joking about strippers. Moreover, the emails show Epstein and Mandelson doing other bad things! Mandelson wasn't just friends with Epstein: he was sending him secrets. Of course, there is also the concern that maybe the friendship is a sign that the friend was also involved in the worse acts. All these people in the US who were palling around with Epstein after his conviction, were they also involved in the sex trafficking etc.?
I knew someone who was convicted of sex offences twice. I don't talk to him any more. That's mainly because he tried to minimise what he'd done and then moved on to saying he was innocent in the second case and it was all an outlandish conspiracy against him even though he pleaded guilty.
None of which matches up with your last couple of weeks of posts.
Here, we value genuine insight over polemic.
We have a decent quota of armchair generals, who at best offer a dispassionate perspective away from the front line, and at worst display their ignorance of how contemporary politics plays out. Then we have the retired generals, such as myself and a good number of others, who have served our time on the front line and bring to the site the benefit of our experience, qualified by the particular circumstances under which we played the game. Then there are those who suddenly join the site, unware of our traditions and unwritten rules, who are quickly uncovered as either Russian teenagers sitting in a Petersburg basement, or people actively engaged in contemporary politics, naively expecting to hide their axe under a bunch of camouflage. Don’t be that latter person.
As a Con supporter, doesn’t it worry you they might? Look at Starmer’s unrecoverable public satisfaction ratings that all gets wiped clean with “New Manager Bounce”. 😕
Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?
This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).
That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.
To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.
That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
I have three reactions there.
Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.
Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.
Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.
We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.
If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.
And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH
It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way
There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling
You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this
That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice
Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
With Leon on this one.
(Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
I'm very much in the 'move the capital to somewhere more central' lobby. But one argument in favour of the 'keep parliament in the PoW' camp is that if we were to have a new parliament building, it would inevitably be a disappointing embarrassment. Like the Scottish parliament, only more expensive. (That said, IIRC, the Welsh parliament building is actually rather good...)
We should move Parliament to (say) Manchester during the refurbishment too.
Insisting on running Parliament in the House whilst it’s being refurbished is one of the things that’s driving up costs beyond all possible sense & also it would be good for the country to get all the MPs out of London for once.
Isn’t the problem with moving it to another city, inevitably smaller than London, even temporarily that you need to find accommodation for hundreds if not thousands of MPs, Spads, staff, officials etc which will exacerbate housing shortages or inflation. Does Manchester have tha available houses and flats on the market to rent for the period?
How many Michelin Star Restaurant in Manchester
It's a cultural desert.
If the issue is a lack of Michelin stars then it's a gastronomic desert - a lack of theatres / opera would be a cultural desert - and Manchester isn't that bad for culture...
Birmingham far superior on all counts.
Large chunk of NEC could be commander Ed and rented
Parliament and media set up there . Excellent links
God they could even get there in an hour on hs2
Also several Michelin stars in the area, even if Glynn Purnell shut his.
3 in the City Centre still I think
4 or 5 within 20 miles Lichfield, Kenilworth etc
Shame about Purnell
Very precarious business for many big names Chefs for many years.
Purnell is still plying his trade. He just shut his flagship restaurant, Purnell’s, he has a couple of others. He has a new place coming soon.
Akhtar Islam has said he makes more with his mail order curries than from Opheem, which is 2 star.
The guy from Lichfield came to a food event locally, 20 top chefs turn up and cook a small plate and it’s a tenner a pop for charity.
His cow pie was superb. My wife and I both reckoned it was our favourite of the day.
Been a long time since I worked and ate in Brum
I'll age myself by saying Shimla Pinks was the height of fine cuisine
Same.
On Broad Street.
Didn’t Bill Clinton eat there when in town for a shindig. He had a drink by the canals.
I was told Lee Dixon had a financial interest in it. Not sure if that was true or a joke.
Clinton and Blair famously pictured on canalside pub that is between Brindley Place and NIA it may have been called the Brass house. Big G7 in about 1998 I think.
Not sure about Dixon.
Steve Staunton owned a few. I lived near Shenstone on road to Lichfield. Staunton and Merse, lovely chap were locals in my favourite Indian The Retreat at Wood End.
Stainton and Robbie Keane invested heavily and successfully in Restaurants and Housing. Robbie was very very astute.
As a Con supporter, doesn’t it worry you they might? Look at Starmer’s unrecoverable public satisfaction ratings that all gets wiped clean with “New Manager Bounce”. 😕
The five party system will make an interesting test for both new leader bounce and swingback
Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?
This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).
That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.
To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.
That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
I have three reactions there.
Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.
Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.
Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.
We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.
If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.
And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH
It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way
There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling
You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this
That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice
Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
With Leon on this one.
(Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
I'm very much in the 'move the capital to somewhere more central' lobby. But one argument in favour of the 'keep parliament in the PoW' camp is that if we were to have a new parliament building, it would inevitably be a disappointing embarrassment. Like the Scottish parliament, only more expensive. (That said, IIRC, the Welsh parliament building is actually rather good...)
We should move Parliament to (say) Manchester during the refurbishment too.
Insisting on running Parliament in the House whilst it’s being refurbished is one of the things that’s driving up costs beyond all possible sense & also it would be good for the country to get all the MPs out of London for once.
Isn’t the problem with moving it to another city, inevitably smaller than London, even temporarily that you need to find accommodation for hundreds if not thousands of MPs, Spads, staff, officials etc which will exacerbate housing shortages or inflation. Does Manchester have tha available houses and flats on the market to rent for the period?
How many Michelin Star Restaurant in Manchester
It's a cultural desert.
If the issue is a lack of Michelin stars then it's a gastronomic desert - a lack of theatres / opera would be a cultural desert - and Manchester isn't that bad for culture...
Birmingham far superior on all counts.
Large chunk of NEC could be commander Ed and rented
Parliament and media set up there . Excellent links
God they could even get there in an hour on hs2
Obviously my personal view is that Manchester is far better than Birmingham as a place to be, but I am absolutely not bothered whether it's Manchester or Birmingham - just get them out of London. Get them to see what the rest of the country is like.
Actually, my preferred place to send them would be Bradford. Somewhere which needs the boost a bit more. Somewhere which will open their eyes to life outside the core cities.
Historically I'd quite like York.
It's gods own county after all
York really doesn’t have the space.
Bradford has always been my choice simply to see how quickly NPR and HS2 would be built in its entirety - but to be honest I don’t actually care, you just need a new building somewhere
The thing is now would be the perfect time to do something dramatic and move Parliament elsewhere as part of a plan to rebuild the country.
Sadly our politicians have no imagination
Obviously Norwich. Englands original second city
On which subject, this is worth 20 minutes of anybody's time - a history of the relative size of Britain's cities. The presenter is an urbanist rather than a historian so there may be a couple of times the likes of Morris Dancer cringe, but it's still mesmerising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8D7U4SsKYg&t=1283s
Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?
This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).
That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.
To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.
That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
I have three reactions there.
Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.
Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.
Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.
We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.
If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.
And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH
It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way
There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling
You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this
That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice
Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
With Leon on this one.
(Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
I'm very much in the 'move the capital to somewhere more central' lobby. But one argument in favour of the 'keep parliament in the PoW' camp is that if we were to have a new parliament building, it would inevitably be a disappointing embarrassment. Like the Scottish parliament, only more expensive. (That said, IIRC, the Welsh parliament building is actually rather good...)
We should move Parliament to (say) Manchester during the refurbishment too.
Insisting on running Parliament in the House whilst it’s being refurbished is one of the things that’s driving up costs beyond all possible sense & also it would be good for the country to get all the MPs out of London for once.
Isn’t the problem with moving it to another city, inevitably smaller than London, even temporarily that you need to find accommodation for hundreds if not thousands of MPs, Spads, staff, officials etc which will exacerbate housing shortages or inflation. Does Manchester have tha available houses and flats on the market to rent for the period?
How many Michelin Star Restaurant in Manchester
It's a cultural desert.
If the issue is a lack of Michelin stars then it's a gastronomic desert - a lack of theatres / opera would be a cultural desert - and Manchester isn't that bad for culture...
Birmingham far superior on all counts.
Large chunk of NEC could be commander Ed and rented
Parliament and media set up there . Excellent links
God they could even get there in an hour on hs2
Also several Michelin stars in the area, even if Glynn Purnell shut his.
3 in the City Centre still I think
4 or 5 within 20 miles Lichfield, Kenilworth etc
Shame about Purnell
Very precarious business for many big names Chefs for many years.
Purnell is still plying his trade. He just shut his flagship restaurant, Purnell’s, he has a couple of others. He has a new place coming soon.
Akhtar Islam has said he makes more with his mail order curries than from Opheem, which is 2 star.
The guy from Lichfield came to a food event locally, 20 top chefs turn up and cook a small plate and it’s a tenner a pop for charity.
His cow pie was superb. My wife and I both reckoned it was our favourite of the day.
Been a long time since I worked and ate in Brum
I'll age myself by saying Shimla Pinks was the height of fine cuisine
Same.
On Broad Street.
Didn’t Bill Clinton eat there when in town for a shindig. He had a drink by the canals.
I was told Lee Dixon had a financial interest in it. Not sure if that was true or a joke.
Clinton and Blair famously pictured on canalside pub that is between Brindley Place and NIA it may have been called the Brass house. Big G7 in about 1998 I think.
Not sure about Dixon.
Steve Staunton owned a few. I lived near Shenstone on road to Lichfield. Staunton and Merse, lovely chap were locals in my favourite Indian The Retreat at Wood End.
Stainton and Robbie Keane invested heavily and successfully in Restaurants and Housing. Robbie was very very astute.
Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?
This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).
That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.
To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.
That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
I have three reactions there.
Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.
Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.
Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.
We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.
If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.
And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH
It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way
There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling
You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this
That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice
Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
With Leon on this one.
(Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
I'm very much in the 'move the capital to somewhere more central' lobby. But one argument in favour of the 'keep parliament in the PoW' camp is that if we were to have a new parliament building, it would inevitably be a disappointing embarrassment. Like the Scottish parliament, only more expensive. (That said, IIRC, the Welsh parliament building is actually rather good...)
We should move Parliament to (say) Manchester during the refurbishment too.
Insisting on running Parliament in the House whilst it’s being refurbished is one of the things that’s driving up costs beyond all possible sense & also it would be good for the country to get all the MPs out of London for once.
Isn’t the problem with moving it to another city, inevitably smaller than London, even temporarily that you need to find accommodation for hundreds if not thousands of MPs, Spads, staff, officials etc which will exacerbate housing shortages or inflation. Does Manchester have tha available houses and flats on the market to rent for the period?
How many Michelin Star Restaurant in Manchester
It's a cultural desert.
If the issue is a lack of Michelin stars then it's a gastronomic desert - a lack of theatres / opera would be a cultural desert - and Manchester isn't that bad for culture...
Birmingham far superior on all counts.
Large chunk of NEC could be commander Ed and rented
Parliament and media set up there . Excellent links
God they could even get there in an hour on hs2
Also several Michelin stars in the area, even if Glynn Purnell shut his.
3 in the City Centre still I think
4 or 5 within 20 miles Lichfield, Kenilworth etc
Shame about Purnell
Very precarious business for many big names Chefs for many years.
Purnell is still plying his trade. He just shut his flagship restaurant, Purnell’s, he has a couple of others. He has a new place coming soon.
Akhtar Islam has said he makes more with his mail order curries than from Opheem, which is 2 star.
The guy from Lichfield came to a food event locally, 20 top chefs turn up and cook a small plate and it’s a tenner a pop for charity.
His cow pie was superb. My wife and I both reckoned it was our favourite of the day.
Been a long time since I worked and ate in Brum
I'll age myself by saying Shimla Pinks was the height of fine cuisine
Same.
On Broad Street.
Didn’t Bill Clinton eat there when in town for a shindig. He had a drink by the canals.
I was told Lee Dixon had a financial interest in it. Not sure if that was true or a joke.
None of which matches up with your last couple of weeks of posts.
Here, we value genuine insight over polemic.
We have a decent quota of armchair generals, who at best offer a dispassionate perspective away from the front line, and at worst display their ignorance of how contemporary politics plays out. Then we have the retired generals, such as myself and a good number of others, who have served our time on the front line and bring to the site the benefit of our experience, qualified by the particular circumstances under which we played the game. Then there are those who suddenly join the site, unware of our traditions and unwritten rules, who are quickly uncovered as either Russian teenagers sitting in a Petersburg basement, or people actively engaged in contemporary politics, naively expecting to hide their axe under a bunch of camouflage. Don’t be that latter person.
Seconded
I'm 100% neither a Russian bot nor the latter.
What I will say is what I think and it won't be AI
As a Con supporter, doesn’t it worry you they might? Look at Starmer’s unrecoverable public satisfaction ratings that all gets wiped clean with “New Manager Bounce”. 😕
As a Con supporter, doesn’t it worry you they might? Look at Starmer’s unrecoverable public satisfaction ratings that all gets wiped clean with “New Manager Bounce”. 😕
No
Indeed
With improving economic data and policy benefits kicking in, I think leader change early 2027 would be ideal.
Still looking for it, as everyone else is, I guess
I found it
Idea 1 - replacement the treasury with something focused on growth - hmm may work Idea 2 - locate the new department in Birmingham - nope that’s a mistake.
As I said you split the treasury - move the day to day bits out of London so what’s left is the growth building department in London
* were Parliament to be outside London the opposite is true, leave the treasury there but move the other bits to where Parliament is moved to
Last time any government seriously took on the Treasury was when Harold Wilson made George Brown Secretary of State for Economic Affairs. That didn't work out too well. Though GB's propensity for becoming "tired and emotional" possibly didn't help.
I could easily see history repeating which is why I think you need to start with separating things out in a way that the old treasury can’t stop it - so plan A would be to send what’s left of the Treasury away from Parliament.
Although moving parliament to Birmingham and stopping the treasury from moving would likely have the same effect.
Actual move the Treasury to Treasury North and Parliament to Birmingham - enjoy your 4 hour standing on a cross country train to get home from visiting the minister
As a Con supporter, doesn’t it worry you they might? Look at Starmer’s unrecoverable public satisfaction ratings that all gets wiped clean with “New Manager Bounce”. 😕
The five party system will make an interesting test for both new leader bounce and swingback
As a Con supporter, doesn’t it worry you they might? Look at Starmer’s unrecoverable public satisfaction ratings that all gets wiped clean with “New Manager Bounce”. 😕
No
My analysis is, if Labour MPs move against Starmer, it will only be on basis of wanting real fresh change, not simply swap Starmer out. If I’m right, real chance of left field winner, someone not currently name bandied around. Benn for example, already proved as strong commons performer, could run a solid government and make this Labour government popular again.
None of which matches up with your last couple of weeks of posts.
Here, we value genuine insight over polemic.
We have a decent quota of armchair generals, who at best offer a dispassionate perspective away from the front line, and at worst display their ignorance of how contemporary politics plays out. Then we have the retired generals, such as myself and a good number of others, who have served our time on the front line and bring to the site the benefit of our experience, qualified by the particular circumstances under which we played the game. Then there are those who suddenly join the site, unware of our traditions and unwritten rules, who are quickly uncovered as either Russian teenagers sitting in a Petersburg basement, or people actively engaged in contemporary politics, naively expecting to hide their axe under a bunch of camouflage. Don’t be that latter person.
Seconded
I'm 100% neither a Russian bot nor the latter.
What I will say is what I think and it won't be AI
If I'm not welcome I will feck iff
Simple as that
I enjoy a joust no more than that
This is quite the best forum for political discourse and betting information.though I do not bet
However, @TSE has to be protected from any possible libel or breaches of the OSA and we all recognize that and 100% support him and those who are responsible to this forum and it's success
There is plenty of banter but to be honest at times you seem to think you can say anything you like when in truth you cannot and need to remember your responsibilities to @TSE
None of which matches up with your last couple of weeks of posts.
Here, we value genuine insight over polemic.
We have a decent quota of armchair generals, who at best offer a dispassionate perspective away from the front line, and at worst display their ignorance of how contemporary politics plays out. Then we have the retired generals, such as myself and a good number of others, who have served our time on the front line and bring to the site the benefit of our experience, qualified by the particular circumstances under which we played the game. Then there are those who suddenly join the site, unware of our traditions and unwritten rules, who are quickly uncovered as either Russian teenagers sitting in a Petersburg basement, or people actively engaged in contemporary politics, naively expecting to hide their axe under a bunch of camouflage. Don’t be that latter person.
Seconded
I'm 100% neither a Russian bot nor the latter.
What I will say is what I think and it won't be AI
If I'm not welcome I will feck iff
Simple as that
I enjoy a joust no more than that
This is quite the best forum for political discourse and betting information.though I do not bet
However, @TSE has to be protected from any possible libel or breaches of the OSA and we all recognize that and 100% support him and those who are responsible to this forum and it's success
There is plenty of banter but to be honest at times you seem to think you can say anything you like when in truth you cannot and need to remember your responsibilities to @TSE
"...Start using AI seriously, not just as a search engine. Sign up for the paid version of Claude or ChatGPT. It's $20 a month. But two things matter right away. First: make sure you're using the best model available, not just the default. These apps often default to a faster, dumber model. Dig into the settings or the model picker and select the most capable option. Right now that's GPT-5.2 on ChatGPT or Claude Opus 4.6 on Claude, but it changes every couple of months. If you want to stay current on which model is best at any given time, you can follow me on X (@mattshumer_). I test every major release and share what's actually worth using..."
It's percolating into my brain that this is something I have to do. I have two major problems at the moment
Standard sample size software give different answers for certain classes of study. WTF?
A competitor department has long lead times for computing work. I already do it faster due to lack of bureaucracy but it's draining. With use of AI can I do this much faster: in hours rather than weeks?
If I can use AI to solve these problems, my employers will love me to bits and give me big smoochies.
Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?
This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).
That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.
To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.
That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
I have three reactions there.
Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.
Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.
Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.
We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.
If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.
And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH
It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way
There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling
You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this
That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice
Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
With Leon on this one.
(Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
I'm very much in the 'move the capital to somewhere more central' lobby. But one argument in favour of the 'keep parliament in the PoW' camp is that if we were to have a new parliament building, it would inevitably be a disappointing embarrassment. Like the Scottish parliament, only more expensive. (That said, IIRC, the Welsh parliament building is actually rather good...)
We should move Parliament to (say) Manchester during the refurbishment too.
Insisting on running Parliament in the House whilst it’s being refurbished is one of the things that’s driving up costs beyond all possible sense & also it would be good for the country to get all the MPs out of London for once.
Isn’t the problem with moving it to another city, inevitably smaller than London, even temporarily that you need to find accommodation for hundreds if not thousands of MPs, Spads, staff, officials etc which will exacerbate housing shortages or inflation. Does Manchester have tha available houses and flats on the market to rent for the period?
How many Michelin Star Restaurant in Manchester
It's a cultural desert.
If the issue is a lack of Michelin stars then it's a gastronomic desert - a lack of theatres / opera would be a cultural desert - and Manchester isn't that bad for culture...
Birmingham far superior on all counts.
Large chunk of NEC could be commander Ed and rented
Parliament and media set up there . Excellent links
God they could even get there in an hour on hs2
Obviously my personal view is that Manchester is far better than Birmingham as a place to be, but I am absolutely not bothered whether it's Manchester or Birmingham - just get them out of London. Get them to see what the rest of the country is like.
Actually, my preferred place to send them would be Bradford. Somewhere which needs the boost a bit more. Somewhere which will open their eyes to life outside the core cities.
Historically I'd quite like York.
It's gods own county after all
York really doesn’t have the space.
Bradford has always been my choice simply to see how quickly NPR and HS2 would be built in its entirety - but to be honest I don’t actually care, you just need a new building somewhere
The thing is now would be the perfect time to do something dramatic and move Parliament elsewhere as part of a plan to rebuild the country.
Sadly our politicians have no imagination
If accommodation is the problem, they could go somewhere near the coast and have a few Bibby Stockholms.
Some MPs need to smell some coffee. Does anyone know the detail on this to write a header?
This is ticking towards £500k per square metre of space. (40 billion, 110k sqm of space).
That is, around one hundred times the cost of building top quality office space in London.
To be fair the level of skill required to refurbish the Palace of Westminster (as opposed to bolting together steel and laying breeze blocks is probably 100 times more.
That’s not even starting on having everyone involved security cleared, etc. No Lithuanian builders here.
I have three reactions there.
Firstly I am skeptical, because we need comparators like restoration to comparable buildings, which would be things varying from St Pancras Station and the Natural History Museum to large National Trust properties, full blown neo-Gothic churches, and others. I think the budget will end up 4 or 5 times as high as strictly necessary, and there is a risk that it is a blank cheque.
Secondly project cost comparisons are essential or it will be triply gold plated. If it is a proposed long term project, then it should follow the model of NT or Cathedrals and employ their own career staff, rather than consultants or contractors. It's taking so long to do the f*cking paperwork, that they could be recruiting them at birth.
Thirdly, there is an immensely strong argument that the Palace of Westminster, can be replaced or simplified, or simply to move elsewhere, as it is a building past it's end-of-life date. They are Parliament and are supreme, and they can revise the Grade I listing. At £40 billion it may be worth it.
Much as I love that the HoP have been in use for over 150 years and there is the long, historic legacy, I think we should seriously consider moving parliament out to a new, purpose built, site, with associated accommodation and offices. It it happened to be say near Birmingham (perhaps just of the HS2 line) so much the better. Then with an empty building renovate and conserve the historic centre of government and turn it into a tourist attraction.
We invest too much in the conservation of old buildings. Yes we should preserve some iconic ones, but we ought to be less sentimental. The Romans would have used double glazing if it had been around at the time - update old buildings to modern standards.
The Palace of Westminster isn’t just “some old building”. It is THE old building.
If we can’t conserve that then we may as well just give up.
Why is it THE old building? Is it any more important than any other? Show your working.
And I am NOT proposing knocking down - just the creation of a new, modern chamber/chambers with associated infrastructure and the conservation of the HoP.
It is THE old building that represents Britain around the world - and in a good way. Parliament, democracy, civilisation, Magna Carta, Old England, Rufus’ Roaring Hall, the place where Charlies 1 was tried, on and on. It is arguably the most densely, importantly historic building ON EARTH
It is the building everyone shows when they want to say London! Britain! UK! - and it does this, as I say, in a very positive way
There is no equivalent in the world. The Eiffel Tower represents Paris and France, and is sexy, but even so I am not sure it is a majestically symbolic as Big Ben. London Calling
You guys are all geeky nerds. Accept that you don’t get this
That said, the costs suggested are fucking insane. I just don’t believe them, and I am sure half of it is Woke shit about accessibility and the other half is HS2 style scopeflation as the architects and designers and wankers see a chance to take a slice
Tell them all to fuck off. It’s unique. It’s like Notre Dame. Move MPs and Lords out for five years and get the essential safety done for 3bn, but there won’t be wheelchair access. Sorted
With Leon on this one.
(Also, I bet we could get 90% of the accessibility improvements for 10% of the cost. It’s the insistence on 100% equivalence to new build requirements that’s wildly inflating costs.)
I'm very much in the 'move the capital to somewhere more central' lobby. But one argument in favour of the 'keep parliament in the PoW' camp is that if we were to have a new parliament building, it would inevitably be a disappointing embarrassment. Like the Scottish parliament, only more expensive. (That said, IIRC, the Welsh parliament building is actually rather good...)
We should move Parliament to (say) Manchester during the refurbishment too.
Insisting on running Parliament in the House whilst it’s being refurbished is one of the things that’s driving up costs beyond all possible sense & also it would be good for the country to get all the MPs out of London for once.
Isn’t the problem with moving it to another city, inevitably smaller than London, even temporarily that you need to find accommodation for hundreds if not thousands of MPs, Spads, staff, officials etc which will exacerbate housing shortages or inflation. Does Manchester have tha available houses and flats on the market to rent for the period?
How many Michelin Star Restaurant in Manchester
It's a cultural desert.
If the issue is a lack of Michelin stars then it's a gastronomic desert - a lack of theatres / opera would be a cultural desert - and Manchester isn't that bad for culture...
Birmingham far superior on all counts.
Large chunk of NEC could be commander Ed and rented
Parliament and media set up there . Excellent links
God they could even get there in an hour on hs2
Obviously my personal view is that Manchester is far better than Birmingham as a place to be, but I am absolutely not bothered whether it's Manchester or Birmingham - just get them out of London. Get them to see what the rest of the country is like.
Actually, my preferred place to send them would be Bradford. Somewhere which needs the boost a bit more. Somewhere which will open their eyes to life outside the core cities.
Historically I'd quite like York.
It's gods own county after all
York really doesn’t have the space.
Bradford has always been my choice simply to see how quickly NPR and HS2 would be built in its entirety - but to be honest I don’t actually care, you just need a new building somewhere
The thing is now would be the perfect time to do something dramatic and move Parliament elsewhere as part of a plan to rebuild the country.
Sadly our politicians have no imagination
If accommodation is the problem, they could go somewhere near the coast and have a few Bibby Stockholms.
Off topic, but timely: Lincoln's birthday is tomorrow, so I thought I would start by telling you what Lincoln wrote, later in life, about his education:
"There were some schools, so-called, but no qualification was ever required of a teacher, beyond 'readin', writin', and cypherin'' to the Rule of Three. If a straggler supposed to understand latin, happened to sojourn in the neighborhood, he was looked upon as a wizzard."
(from Carl Sandburg's one volume biography of Lincoln)
Lincoln had about a year, all together, of formal education. He then taught himself to be first a surveyor, and then a lawyer -- and was good at both.
As a Con supporter, doesn’t it worry you they might? Look at Starmer’s unrecoverable public satisfaction ratings that all gets wiped clean with “New Manager Bounce”. 😕
The nightmare scenario is "Truss 2 - this time it's Socialist":
Contested leadership elections only work in opposition. There, the candidates throw red meat to their base and then spend a few years resiling from their positions before the GE to persuade the moderates - exactly as Starmer did.
Truss, with her Johnson-era majority behind her, threw red meat and was IMMEDIATELY able to act (Luckily the Tory deadman switch kicked in before we were all resolutely stuffed - there is no Labour deadman switch). Imagine Rayner vs Miliband in a contested election after Starmer quits/is VONCed - what will they promise to their members, and then have the power to deliver - Wealth tax? UBI? WASPI? Massive welfare increases? you name it.
I'm a Tory and am hoping that SKS stays in power for the next three years - or engineers a coronation.
Comments
But that comes with caveats. Maybe politicians need to be purer in their approach than average members of the public. There's also a difference between maintaining a friendship with someone and, say, actively campaigning for them to be elected (as with Lord Doyle campaigning for Morton after he was charged). Critical to this is repentance: has the offender seen the error of his or her ways? Epstein clearly hadn't! He just went straight back to doing the same things and blamed the victims in emails to people like Steve Bannon and Noam Chomsky. If the emails with Mandelson had shown Epstein apologetic and admitting his guilt and Mandelson was helping him back on to the straight and narrow, that might have been different, but instead they show Epstein and Mandelson joking about strippers. Moreover, the emails show Epstein and Mandelson doing other bad things! Mandelson wasn't just friends with Epstein: he was sending him secrets. Of course, there is also the concern that maybe the friendship is a sign that the friend was also involved in the worse acts. All these people in the US who were palling around with Epstein after his conviction, were they also involved in the sex trafficking etc.?
I knew someone who was convicted of sex offences twice. I don't talk to him any more. That's mainly because he tried to minimise what he'd done and then moved on to saying he was innocent in the second case and it was all an outlandish conspiracy against him even though he pleaded guilty.
Not sure about Dixon.
Steve Staunton owned a few. I lived near Shenstone on road to Lichfield. Staunton and Merse, lovely chap were locals in my favourite Indian The Retreat at Wood End.
Stainton and Robbie Keane invested heavily and successfully in Restaurants and Housing. Robbie was very very astute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8D7U4SsKYg&t=1283s
Can you confirm you understand this.
What I will say is what I think and it won't be AI
If I'm not welcome I will feck iff
Simple as that
I enjoy a joust no more than that
‘She said “he’s got to go hasn’t he, he’s a c**t”’
(asterisks put in by me)
https://x.com/lucytcwife/status/2021212528831783054?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
With improving economic data and policy benefits kicking in, I think leader change early 2027 would be ideal.
From a Labour supporter perspective.
Clear out all the mistakes, issues
New broom
Question is who?
Darren Jones for me
Although moving parliament to Birmingham and stopping the treasury from moving would likely have the same effect.
Actual move the Treasury to Treasury North and Parliament to Birmingham - enjoy your 4 hour standing on a cross country train to get home from visiting the minister
NEW THREAD
However, @TSE has to be protected from any possible libel or breaches of the OSA and we all recognize that and 100% support him and those who are responsible to this forum and it's success
There is plenty of banter but to be honest at times you seem to think you can say anything you like when in truth you cannot and need to remember your responsibilities to @TSE
"...Start using AI seriously, not just as a search engine. Sign up for the paid version of Claude or ChatGPT. It's $20 a month. But two things matter right away. First: make sure you're using the best model available, not just the default. These apps often default to a faster, dumber model. Dig into the settings or the model picker and select the most capable option. Right now that's GPT-5.2 on ChatGPT or Claude Opus 4.6 on Claude, but it changes every couple of months. If you want to stay current on which model is best at any given time, you can follow me on X (@mattshumer_). I test every major release and share what's actually worth using..."
It's percolating into my brain that this is something I have to do. I have two major problems at the moment
- Standard sample size software give different answers for certain classes of study. WTF?
- A competitor department has long lead times for computing work. I already do it faster due to lack of bureaucracy but it's draining. With use of AI can I do this much faster: in hours rather than weeks?
If I can use AI to solve these problems, my employers will love me to bits and give me big smoochies.Lincoln had about a year, all together, of formal education.
He then taught himself to be first a surveyor, and then a lawyer -- and was good at both.
Contested leadership elections only work in opposition. There, the candidates throw red meat to their base and then spend a few years resiling from their positions before the GE to persuade the moderates - exactly as Starmer did.
Truss, with her Johnson-era majority behind her, threw red meat and was IMMEDIATELY able to act (Luckily the Tory deadman switch kicked in before we were all resolutely stuffed - there is no Labour deadman switch). Imagine Rayner vs Miliband in a contested election after Starmer quits/is VONCed - what will they promise to their members, and then have the power to deliver - Wealth tax? UBI? WASPI? Massive welfare increases? you name it.
I'm a Tory and am hoping that SKS stays in power for the next three years - or engineers a coronation.