Interesting dig at Spain about Gibraltar's right to 'determine its own future' - understandable saying that about the Falklands - but putting in Gib too.....
Interesting. That sort of demographic shift must apply to most of Northern Europe.
Must really f*ck over the age-profile of the immigrants' countries of origin though. I'd hate to be responsible for the state pension scheme in Romania.
This is my thought. Why are Romania and Bulgaria so keen on a system that encourages their brightest and best to migrate? Surely it is in their interests to be in the EU but with restricted migration rights. When their economies have converged with the EU average the border controls could be relaxed and there would be much fewer disruptive population shifts, and much more viable economies.
Short-termism. Romania and Bulgaria have serious domestic unemployment, so emigration means the state doesn't have to support them, and remittances bring cash into the country. Works for about 5 years, I'd guess.
You are boring. You are wrong. Use whatever metric you wish.
Study Nineteenth Century history. Look at what happened within England between 1860 and 1913. Comparing and contrasting England - an imperial power - with a nationalist movement that unified the non-liberal areas of the Holy Roman Empire is facile without facts.
It is like talking to a SNat: In which way was Prussia bigger than England. Until you understand the question you will fail to understand Unionism and Conservatism.
Grade: E.
I have given you the area figures for Prussia and England (NOTE to our Dutch Denizens - England, not GB or the UK!). If you want to ignore the stats like our 'friend' Wee Timmy, be my guest, Liebling!
The kingdom of Prussia was at its maximum extent at the beginning of C19 just after it had partitioned Poland for the 3rd time and swallowed up Hanover.
However it lost the area around Warsaw ("South Prussia") firstly to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and then to Russia by the end of the Napoleonic era (1815). But gained territory in the west (Hanoever, Schleswig et al.) by 1870.
correct Mr P, but 1806 was the biggest it ever got, after that it started to shrink !
Interesting dig at Spain about Gibraltar's right to 'determine its own future' - understandable saying that about the Falklands - but putting in Spain too.....
Spain is bust - good time to put the golf spikes on the throat...
France is let off as they are still sweating the nuclear deal.
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
You are boring. You are wrong. Use whatever metric you wish.
Study Nineteenth Century history. Look at what happened within England between 1860 and 1913. Comparing and contrasting England - an imperial power - with a nationalist movement that unified the non-liberal areas of the Holy Roman Empire is facile without facts.
It is like talking to a SNat: In which way was Prussia bigger than England. Until you understand the question you will fail to understand Unionism and Conservatism.
Grade: E.
I have given you the area figures for Prussia and England (NOTE to our Dutch Denizens - England, not GB or the UK!). If you want to ignore the stats like our 'friend' Wee Timmy, be my guest, Liebling!
The kingdom of Prussia was at its maximum extent at the beginning of C19 just after it had partitioned Poland for the 3rd time and swallowed up Hanover.
However it lost the area around Warsaw ("South Prussia") firstly to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and then to Russia by the end of the Napoleonic era (1815). But gained territory in the west (Hanoever, Schleswig et al.) by 1870.
correct Mr P, but 1806 was the biggest it ever got, after that it started to shrink !
I think the areas gained in W Germany easily compensated S Prussia!
Falling birth rates are the root of the problem, luckily for the UK we got the immigration we needed to counter it, and birth rates among "native Brits" have also risen. Germany is now similarly attracting immigrants to defuse it's demographic time bomb. Southern and Eastern Europe has bigger problems, low birth rate and emigration. Some of these countries' populations may decline, look at Spains birth rate and emigration.
The logical thing for the EU to do is to fast track Turkey's membership - but as we see every day on here, immigration and logic are rarely linked.
deluded. there is no appetite for mass immigration in Germany. The issue is already creeping up the pecking order and you can expect Merkel to start increasing restrictions.
Falling birth rates are the root of the problem, luckily for the UK we got the immigration we needed to counter it, and birth rates among "native Brits" have also risen. Germany is now similarly attracting immigrants to defuse it's demographic time bomb. Southern and Eastern Europe has bigger problems, low birth rate and emigration. Some of these countries' populations may decline, look at Spains birth rate and emigration.
The logical thing for the EU to do is to fast track Turkey's membership - but as we see every day on here, immigration and logic are rarely linked.
Continuing to raid new entrants to the EU by stripping them of their workers does not look like a good plan, more like a Ponzi scheme.
The UK fertility rate is sufficiently near replacement level that a net inflow of tens of thousands i or fewer sounds about right to maintain a level UK population. Coalition wins again!
You are boring. You are wrong. Use whatever metric you wish.
Study Nineteenth Century history. Look at what happened within England between 1860 and 1913. Comparing and contrasting England - an imperial power - with a nationalist movement that unified the non-liberal areas of the Holy Roman Empire is facile without facts.
It is like talking to a SNat: In which way was Prussia bigger than England. Until you understand the question you will fail to understand Unionism and Conservatism.
Grade: E.
I have given you the area figures for Prussia and England (NOTE to our Dutch Denizens - England, not GB or the UK!). If you want to ignore the stats like our 'friend' Wee Timmy, be my guest, Liebling!
The kingdom of Prussia was at its maximum extent at the beginning of C19 just after it had partitioned Poland for the 3rd time and swallowed up Hanover.
However it lost the area around Warsaw ("South Prussia") firstly to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and then to Russia by the end of the Napoleonic era (1815). But gained territory in the west (Hanoever, Schleswig et al.) by 1870.
correct Mr P, but 1806 was the biggest it ever got, after that it started to shrink !
I think the areas gained in W Germany easily compensated S Prussia!
Looking at those stats it's interesting the 18 -24 age group appear to be more conservative than the age group immediately above them. They are also the only group who weren't adults back in those far off pre-credit crunch days that ended abruptly in the late summer of 2007. Perhaps they have a clearer appreciation that the world doesn't owe them a living.
Well, it's a view - I find discriminating against anyone based on a single criterion of excellence really weird.
As one of the country’s leading fertility experts, Lord Winston might be expected to surround himself with the brightest minds at work. But the Labour peer has admitted ‘deliberately’ discriminating against job applicants with first class degrees.
Those that have fallen short of academic brilliance are often better employees because they are more rounded individuals who work well in a team, the scientist and The Human Body presenter claimed.
‘I know scientists who are amazingly stupid,’ he said. ‘And in my laboratory I have appointed scientists on the whole that didn’t get first-class honours degrees, deliberately, quite specifically, because, actually, I would rather have young people around me who developed other interests at university and didn’t just focus entirely on getting that first.
‘That’s been a very successful strategy. It’s produced a lot of useful science because we’ve worked as a group of friends, a team. That’s very much more important than almost anything else.’
The comments, made to pupils from Clapton Girls Academy who were delegates of this year’s London International Youth Science Forum, may be influenced by Lord Winston’s own academic background.
Looking at those stats it's interesting the 18 -24 age group appear to be more conservative than the age group immediately above them. They are also the only group who weren't adults back in those far off pre-credit crunch days that ended abruptly in the late summer of 2007. Perhaps they have a clearer appreciation that the world doesn't owe them a living.
People that came of age during New Labour are very aware of how shafted they have been.
Falling birth rates are the root of the problem, luckily for the UK we got the immigration we needed to counter it, and birth rates among "native Brits" have also risen. Germany is now similarly attracting immigrants to defuse it's demographic time bomb. Southern and Eastern Europe has bigger problems, low birth rate and emigration. Some of these countries' populations may decline, look at Spains birth rate and emigration.
The logical thing for the EU to do is to fast track Turkey's membership - but as we see every day on here, immigration and logic are rarely linked.
Continuing to raid new entrants to the EU by stripping them of their workers does not look like a good plan, more like a Ponzi scheme.
The UK fertility rate is sufficiently near replacement level that a net inflow of tens of thousands i or fewer sounds about right to maintain a level UK population. Coalition wins again!
If you do the maths, you actually need huge levels of immigration to make a meaningful impact on the dependency ratio. Getting fertility rates up is a far better bet. Any sensible strategy would also be aware that some immigrants are going to contribute far more than others, even if we restrict it to economic terms only. Not only do some types of immigrants earn far more than others, they also differ massively in their participation rates.
Looking at those stats it's interesting the 18 -24 age group appear to be more conservative than the age group immediately above them. They are also the only group who weren't adults back in those far off pre-credit crunch days that ended abruptly in the late summer of 2007. Perhaps they have a clearer appreciation that the world doesn't owe them a living.
People that came of age during New Labour are very aware of how shafted they have been.
Not just new labour, my son still can't get over quite how badly he is being stiffed on Uni fees. Especially when HMG appears to have money to throw round at gimmicks.
Looking at those stats it's interesting the 18 -24 age group appear to be more conservative than the age group immediately above them. They are also the only group who weren't adults back in those far off pre-credit crunch days that ended abruptly in the late summer of 2007. Perhaps they have a clearer appreciation that the world doesn't owe them a living.
People that came of age during New Labour are very aware of how shafted they have been.
SeanT blogged on how the youth are becoming more sensible, drinking less taking fewer drugs etc. This seems to be a genuine change and one with a more conservative outlook on life.
We do need to bear in mind that our universities increasingly draw students from second and third generation migrants, who tend to have been brought up in more traditional households (in large part the reason that their academic achievements are high). These students influence the culture of university and influence their UK equivalent. Medical Students play less rugger and drink much less beer than when I trained, and have more active islamic societies.
It won't end it, it will restrict it, Why do you think they keep vetoing Turkey's access to the EU ?
And frankly looking at Poland's dempgraphics I'd say Poland will have more need to restrict access out of the country, than Germany has allowing people in.
There's something deeply ironic about the modern inversion of the idea of lebensraum. The Second World War wasn't just an unjust war of aggression, it was getting the whole dynamic upside down.
Germany won't end free movement of labour. The alternative is a Japanese demographic nightmare.
Japan is not a nightmare. It has had rising per capita GDP while overall GDP is static, we have a static GDP with falling per capita GDP. Who has the problem?
Japan has 5% unemployment so there is a pool of potential workers to look after the elderly, and a pool of workers that is in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly.
It won't end it, it will restrict it, Why do you think they keep vetoing Turkey's access to the EU ?
And frankly looking at Poland's dempgraphics I'd say Poland will have more need to restrict access out of the country, than Germany has allowing people in.
Poland is introducing amnesties for illegal immigrants and it will need more immigration.
Now you're just getting stupid. It needs it's own people to stay and work at home.
14,000 asylum seekers will change nothing when outward migration is substantially more. That's about 20% of those going to Germany last year.
Germany won't end free movement of labour. The alternative is a Japanese demographic nightmare.
Japan is not a nightmare. It has had rising per capita GDP while overall GDP is static, we have a static GDP with falling per capita GDP. Who has the problem?
Japan has 5% unemployment so there is a pool of potential workers to look after the elderly, and a pool of workers that is in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly.
We could do worse than copy them!
yup, japan and Germany automate and keep living standards high, we employ the lowest cost labour we can find and living standards stagnate.
Germany won't end free movement of labour. The alternative is a Japanese demographic nightmare.
Japan is not a nightmare. It has had rising per capita GDP while overall GDP is static, we have a static GDP with falling per capita GDP. Who has the problem?
Japan has 5% unemployment so there is a pool of potential workers to look after the elderly, and a pool of workers that is in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly.
We could do worse than copy them!
yup, japan and Germany automate and keep living standards high, we employ the lowest cost labour we can find and living standards stagnate.
Can't blame either Tory or Labour governments on that front. That's our busness culture. Always has been. Poor British management strikes again ;-)
I'll bet you as much money as you like that Poland doesn't introduce restrictions on emigration.
I'll have another bet with you that immigration into Poland increases.
They already have. Most of their illegals come from the East - Byelorussia, Ukraine etc. If you mean they won't restrict EU citizens that's not really the point, economically there is no pressing demand from other nations to go to Poland so it's not an issue.
Germany won't end free movement of labour. The alternative is a Japanese demographic nightmare.
Japan is not a nightmare. It has had rising per capita GDP while overall GDP is static, we have a static GDP with falling per capita GDP. Who has the problem?
Japan has 5% unemployment so there is a pool of potential workers to look after the elderly, and a pool of workers that is in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly.
We could do worse than copy them!
yup, japan and Germany automate and keep living standards high, we employ the lowest cost labour we can find and living standards stagnate.
Can't blame either Tory or Labour governments on that front. That's our busness culture. Always has been. Poor British management strikes again ;-)
Not just the management, the Unions too, they do nothing to protect their members interests. The contrast with Germany is stark.
I'd say Poland will have more need to restrict access out of the country
Well looking at the demographics is that not the case ? they won't restrict people going out of course, but they will soon be facing the same kind of demograpic profile as Italy. so they'll need to start thinking about how to manage it.
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
UKIP's support among my generation is for exactly the same reason as our contemporaries have for voting Communist in Russia! It was better "then"!
Personally, as one who is in the later 70's now (just) I think your son is right. My children, and those grandchildren of working age, believe the world is their oyster.
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
That's a good analysis IMO, and people like your son are also in company with many older people who've travelled a lot for work. We think the future is global, and oddly enough that feels quite right-wing and individualist - who are governments to tell me where I should live, etc.
In a lighter vein, I had my own little culture shock in my Washington hotel (Kellogg) - they don't do bath plugs. Is this common in the US? It doesn't really bother me as my Russian mum brought me up to think that plugs in sinks and baths are disgusting ("you just redistribute the dirt over your body instead of washing it away"), but I remember some travellers to Moscow used to get worked up about it and would conjecture that it showed the failure of the Soviet system.
"BBC Sports editor David Bond says United are confident of announcing a successor to Ferguson before the weekend. He believes they are looking for someone who understands the club's history and is committed to youth development while employing an attractive, attacking style of football."
This specification brings a certain Ole Gunnar Solskjær to mind, currently available at around 50/1 (various) and maybe therefore worth a quid or two, although the betting market appears certain that David Moyes, priced at 2/5, is destined for the job.
People I know in the 25-39 age bracket absolutely hate the Tories and UKIP, but none of them are quite sure why. When Labour did a load of stuff that they didn't approve of that was because they were "just being Tories". For example the Tories seem to get the blame for bailing out the banks even though it happened under Brown.
I'm not entirely sure why this is the case but until it changes the Tories have absolutely no chance of a majority when people blame them for everything even when they aren't in power.
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
That's a good analysis IMO, and people like your son are also in company with many older people who've travelled a lot for work. We think the future is global, and oddly enough that feels quite right-wing and individualist - who are governments to tell me where I should live, etc.
In a lighter vein, I had my own little culture shock in my Washington hotel (Kellogg) - they don't do bath plugs. Is this common in the US? It doesn't really bother me as my Russian mum brought me up to think that plugs in sinks and baths are disgusting ("you just redistribute the dirt over your body instead of washing it away"), but I remember some travellers to Moscow used to get worked up about it and would conjecture that it showed the failure of the Soviet system.
My father is planning to vote UKIP, but is fluent in french, german, spanish and Italian. He has travelled extensively across six continents (cruising the Volga as I write). He does fit the angry white elderly demographic, but his is an informed world view, even if I dislike his conclusions.
My experience of plugs in the USA is similar, in a land of abundance squandering hot water is considered normal. Sitting in stagnant water only seems to appeal to Yanks if in a Jacuzzi and the water is shared. It doesnt seem to kill many of them!
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
UKIP's support among my generation is for exactly the same reason as our contemporaries have for voting Communist in Russia! It was better "then"!
Personally, as one who is in the later 70's now (just) I think your son is right. My children, and those grandchildren of working age, believe the world is their oyster.
This is a stale, old analysis.
Having grown up in the Shires and now living in London, I can see that a lot of people growing up here don't really realise what a sense of community is, because the population is ever shifting. It's like people who grow up in dysfunctional families who don't want to get married. They don't realise what they're missing. It's not fear of foreigners that drives the UKIP vote, it's just desire to hang on to something special. It's no surprise that those with a local pub are more likely to vote UKIP, because they still have a community that they're worried is breaking down due to huge numbers of incomers not participating in it.
UKIP are very forward looking in a lot of ways. They want to trade with the rest of the world. It's the EU that's the out-of-date 1950s dream, complete with half the budget used to prop up the traditional French rural way of life and protectionist barriers on foreign companies. But a sensible policy platform involves appreciating what are the good things we've inherited from the previous generation and trying to preserve them, as well as trying to improve things where we're not doing so well.
It comes to something that it takes a Romanian Ambassador to point out Thatcherite principles to the Tory Party
I am not allowed, as an ambassador, to comment publicly on the British Government’s policies. But if you have in mind, the immigration topic, I didn’t see any connection between Romanians and the immigration policy, because as members of European Union, Romanians are fully entitled to travel and work abroad in any other European country, and this phenomenon is called mobility not immigration in Europe.
Japan is not a nightmare. It has had rising per capita GDP while overall GDP is static, we have a static GDP with falling per capita GDP. Who has the problem?
It's not a nightmare, at least not yet, although there's plenty of room for the combination of public debt and unfunded pensions to turn into something gruesome.
Japan has 5% unemployment so there is a pool of potential workers to look after the elderly, and a pool of workers that is in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly.
I love the idea of young unemployed Japanese people being "in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly".
TBF there is still room to integrate more women into the workforce.
Looking at the poll in detail, a bare majority of UKIP's support (51%) comes from people aged under 60. Indeed, UKIP's level of support among the under 60's, 11%, is 3-4% higher than UKIP's level of support among the general population was, 12 months ago. It's hard to imagine that such support comes from people with a rose-tinted view of the 1950's, which hardly any of them would remember, as opposed to concern about the future for themselves and their children. Yougov regularly shows that UKIP supporters are the group most likely to be concerned about losing their jobs, not having enough money to live on, and being unfairly treated by the government.
It points out the dangers of a "sham negotiation", where Cameron only gets minor repatriations, and he comes home and announces them as a great change, and the europhile parties and the europhile sections of the mediaback him up.
Thankfully now we have a widely-respected judge that can be invited on to to TV shows to give his view of whether the repatriations are consequential or not: Nigel Lawson.
@tim I know you can't resist throwing insults at me, but for the sake of the site, I think it's best if we simply do not engage with each other. I'm doing this unilaterally, even when you make up lies of past events to try to smear me, and I think everyone else would appreciate it if you did too.
@NickPalmer A squash ball is a very good impromptu plug for sinks and baths with any size of aperture. When I backpacked in my youth, I found it invaluable.
@Socrates - Actually, that article says the exact opposite of what you have described.
It quite rightly points out that this won't be a sham negotiation like Wilson's, concluding:
In the age of Twitter and the blogosphere, fuelled by bitter memories of the past, a sham would be exposed very quickly.
Lord Lawson is very welcome to his view that renegotiation will fail, but his warning simply underlines how hard it will be for Cameron can pull a Wilson. The economics of our current terms of membership may be dire – but, so long as we hold our leaders to account, we should at least try to address them before leaving.
I really can't see how any sane non-Europhile can disagree with Cameron's position on this. We get what we can (and who knows what that will be?), and then the people decide if it's enough.
Japan is not a nightmare. It has had rising per capita GDP while overall GDP is static, we have a static GDP with falling per capita GDP. Who has the problem?
It's not a nightmare, at least not yet, although there's plenty of room for the combination of public debt and unfunded pensions to turn into something gruesome.
Japan has 5% unemployment so there is a pool of potential workers to look after the elderly, and a pool of workers that is in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly.
I love the idea of young unemployed Japanese people being "in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly".
TBF there is still room to integrate more women into the workforce.
Iirc in Japan the younger generations tend to live at home with parents and often grandparents much longer than is common in the West, which I suspect has a bit to do with it.
It's no surprise that those with a local pub are more likely to vote UKIP, because they still have a community that they're worried is breaking down due to huge numbers of incomers not participating in it.
Ill informed twaddle.
300 pubs closed between September 2011 and March 2012, equivalent to 12 a week. Suburban and rural areas have borne the brunt of the closures while city centres have proved resilient
Pubs are more likely to close in areas without immigration, largely down to ageing demographics. The same goes for rural schools.
Every time you make up an argument as cover for your xenophobia it falls apart.
just bollox tim, you understand little about village pubs.
The three killers have been
1. tougher drink driving laws which have put off townies tripping out to the sticks for a pint 2. higher booze taxes which make it cheaper to drink supermarket discounts at home 3. smoking ban which disenfranchised half the regulars.
@RichardNabavi No, it did point out the dangers of a sham negotiation, although it went on to give the opinion that last time's attempt wouldn't help Cameron try to do it again.
If David Cameron's position was to negotiate on behalf of the British public in an honest way - stating what he thinks we should get back, trying to get that, and then coming back and giving his honest assessment for a vote - then I'd agree. But we all know he's not going to do that. He's going to avoid saying what he wants, go to Brussels, and come back with a full PR exercise to pretend it was a success, regardless of what he actually gets. That's why eurosceptics don't trust him: we all know he's going to do his best to pull the wool over the public's eyes to stay in.
@RichardNabavi No, it did point out the dangers of a sham negotiation, although it went on to give the opinion that last time it wouldn't help.
If David Cameron's position was to negotiate on behalf of the British public in an honest way - stating what he thinks we should get back, trying to get that, and then coming back and giving his honest assessment for a vote - then I'd agree. But we all know he's not going to do that. He's going to avoid saying what he wants, go to Brussels, and come back with a full PR exercise to pretend it was a success, regardless of what he actually gets. That's why eurosceptics don't trust him: we all know he's going to do his best to pull the wool over the public's eyes to stay in.
Poor neg'ing skills to go in with your baws out in advance.
I'm going to carry on correcting your xenophobic propaganda, I've told you that. And that pub argument is an absolute corker.
How can you correct people when you don't live in a multicultural area,the pubs in the area I live have closed because we have a majority muslim population and so they no need for pubs where drinking is not needed in the muslim culture,it's not xenophobic propaganda,it's fact.
Can you quote where I said something on this thread that showed a dislike of people from foreign countries? Considering that my long-term partner is a foreigner, it doesn't quite square.
@Alanbrooke. We can argue from now till kingdom come about the reasons for rural pub closures. One thing we can be sure of is that it's not the higher sense of community among people in the areas where the pubs have closed due to the areas having lower immigration.
Immigration has nothing to do with it, it's economics.
I could also add an older problem associated with the breaking up of tied pubs. Since then we've had rapacious property co.s asking for unrealistic rents and pushing landlords out of business.
Interesting that there is no mention that the Libdems are only supported by 7% of those who have been around longest and have the greatest propensity to vote. Is it because they are a complete irrelevance these days I wonder?
I'm going to carry on correcting your xenophobic propaganda, I've told you that. And that pub argument is an absolute corker.
How can you correct people when you don't live in a multicultural area,the pubs in the area I live have closed because we have a majority muslim population and so they no need for pubs where drinking is not needed in the muslim culture,it's not xenophobic propaganda,it's fact.
I'm sure Sean Fear can tell us how many thriving pubs there are in the high immigration areas of Luton.
I think it's best if we simply do not engage with each other. I'm doing this unilaterally.
That seems to be going well!
This is about my second interaction with tim in several weeks. Obviously if I'm asking him to make this a two way thing, it needs a pause in the policy. He claimed he would only respond if I said something xenophobic, so I'm asking him to provide evidence of where I did this.
I'm going to carry on correcting your xenophobic propaganda, I've told you that. And that pub argument is an absolute corker.
How can you correct people when you don't live in a multicultural area,the pubs in the area I live have closed because we have a majority muslim population and so they no need for pubs where drinking is not needed in the muslim culture,it's not xenophobic propaganda,it's fact.
I'm sure Sean Fear can tell us how many thriving pubs there are in the high immigration areas of Luton.
In the immediate town centre, there are plenty of pubs, but that's because you get commuters during the day, and clubbers at night.
Outside the town centre, there's been a string of pub closures since we moved there 5 years ago. In my experience, most Hindus and Sikhs don't drink, as well, so when I went down to the Southall by-election, some years ago, it was remarkably hard to find a restaurant that sold alcohol.
I have to chuckle at tim's world where all those muslims are keeping pubs going and active...
The point is that the immigrants over the last decade have been predominantly East-European. Muslims are much more likely to be indigenous, so the argument that immigrants are responsible for pub closures does not stack up.
Can you quote where I said something on this thread that showed a dislike of people from foreign countries? Considering that my long-term partner is a foreigner, it doesn't quite square.
Socrates, why do keep responding to the git? You won't get any satisfaction, he is a plain nasty type. He is the sort of person who, in a family, would be known as either a SPIDER - for injecting poison and and trying to trap you in his web - or an OCTOPUS, for the obvious reasons.
I like to think that we in PB are in some way a family. A family knows how to deal with these types.
Yes, and don't forget all those tea-total Poles who are drving pubs out of business too.
My local pub is full of Eastern Europeans. I'm sure the pub does great business, but that's not the same as community. The different nationality groups largely stick to themselves, and there's a constant turnover as they work here for a couple of years before moving back. It's a very big contrast to the local pubs where I grew up, where everyone would know each others names, as the same people were there for years. I don't blame the immigrants for this, it's a fairly natural part of human behaviour, but I blame policy makers for letting this situation develop.
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
UKIP's support among my generation is for exactly the same reason as our contemporaries have for voting Communist in Russia! It was better "then"!
Personally, as one who is in the later 70's now (just) I think your son is right. My children, and those grandchildren of working age, believe the world is their oyster.
And oysters can give you food poisoning if not treated with the appropriate caution.
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
That's a good analysis IMO, and people like your son are also in company with many older people who've travelled a lot for work. We think the future is global, and oddly enough that feels quite right-wing and individualist - who are governments to tell me where I should live, etc.
In a lighter vein, I had my own little culture shock in my Washington hotel (Kellogg) - they don't do bath plugs. Is this common in the US? It doesn't really bother me as my Russian mum brought me up to think that plugs in sinks and baths are disgusting ("you just redistribute the dirt over your body instead of washing it away"), but I remember some travellers to Moscow used to get worked up about it and would conjecture that it showed the failure of the Soviet system.
Anyone regularly travelling to the USSR or Eastern Europe before the turn of the millennium would take with them an adaptable bath plug.
The absence of plugs in baths and basins was a failure of the communist five year planning model and not an health initiative.
The same applied to lightbulbs, fifty percent of which, wherever the location, never worked. You will be claiming this was an early green energy saving policy next, Dr. Palmer.
Yes, and don't forget all those tea-total Poles who are drving pubs out of business too.
tim will like this anecdote. Around 20 years back, the nearest pub to me, at the Eastern Avenue, became a McDonald's. And just last month the next nearest pub became a Costcutter!
Tim goes on about pb tories don't live in the real world,same with a lot of posters on here who haven't a clue about immigration because they don't live in the real world of inner cities/or multicultural area's.
For the most part I don't. But given that he's got so little life he posts on here twice as much as anyone else, and half his posts are insults, the unpleasant behaviour tends to dominate the thread. It can be hard to avoid sometimes.
What I don't understand is why the moderators put up with it. Other posters get banned for far less.
Yes, and don't forget all those tea-total Poles who are drving pubs out of business too.
I don't think Socrates argument is that immigrants have driven pubs out of business and that has made the natives vote UKIP but rather that UKIP voters value a culture based on small village pub life and don't understand the 'world is your oyster' lot
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
UKIP's support among my generation is for exactly the same reason as our contemporaries have for voting Communist in Russia! It was better "then"!
Personally, as one who is in the later 70's now (just) I think your son is right. My children, and those grandchildren of working age, believe the world is their oyster.
And oysters can give you food poisoning if not treated with the appropriate caution.
I can't remember who, but a prominent Liberal politician ascribed the fall of the Liberal party and subsequent replacement by the Labour party, one of the biggest political shifts in our history, to a few bad oysters being eaten.
Yes, and don't forget all those tea-total Poles who are drving pubs out of business too.
tim will like this anecdote. Around 20 years back, the nearest pub to me, at the Eastern Avenue, became a McDonald's. And just last month the next nearest pub became a Costcutter!
Perhaps the solution for a landlord in a predominantly Muslim area is to turn the pub into a shisha bar. Last year I found myself in Kurdish Northern Iraq watching football in a packed bar which didn't serve alchohol; everyone was smoking shisa pipes instead - quite a surreal experience.
I'm still waiting for you quote my supposed xenophobia.
Moderators,
Can we all post unsubstantiated claims about others? If I start referring to tim regularly as an anti-Semite for instance, would that be alright? Or would one-sided moderation happen?
But we all know he's not going to do that. He's going to avoid saying what he wants, go to Brussels, and come back with a full PR exercise to pretend it was a success, regardless of what he actually gets. That's why eurosceptics don't trust him: we all know he's going to do his best to pull the wool over the public's eyes to stay in.
That makes absolutely zero sense. Your argument comes down to:
1) I want a referendum on leaving the EU, in which I would vote to leave. 2) Cameron has offered a referendum, after a renegotiation. 3) I think the renegotiation won't achieve much 4) So I'd still want to vote to leave the EU 5) So I don't want the referendum.
It is, frankly, bonkers, unless you think Cameron is some of amazing political superstar who can somehow fool the people despite the best efforts of the Eurosceptics/Europhobes to point out the truth. Now, as you know, I'm a great admirer of Cameron, but even I don't think that.
It is, frankly, bonkers, unless you think Cameron is some of amazing political superstar who can somehow fool the people despite the best efforts of the Eurosceptics/Europhobes to point out the truth. Now, as you, I'm a great admirer of Cameron, but even I don't think that.
It happened last time. I don't think Cameron can do it on his own, but I think Europhiles influence the debate so much, they will cover for him. Do you really expect many BBC journalists to challenge Cameron on whether he's got enough back to make the EU worth it?
But we all know he's not going to do that. He's going to avoid saying what he wants, go to Brussels, and come back with a full PR exercise to pretend it was a success, regardless of what he actually gets. That's why eurosceptics don't trust him: we all know he's going to do his best to pull the wool over the public's eyes to stay in.
That makes absolutely zero sense. Your argument comes down to:
1) I want a referendum on leaving the EU, in which I would vote to leave. 2) Cameron has offered a referendum, after a renegotiation. 3) I think the renegotiation won't achieve much 4) So I'd still want to vote to leave the EU 5) So I don't want the referendum.
It is, frankly, bonkers, unless you think Cameron is some of amazing political superstar who can somehow fool the people despite the best efforts of the Eurosceptics/Europhobes to point out the truth. Now, as you know, I'm a great admirer of Cameron, but even I don't think that.
Better to have no referendum and stay in the EU than to have a referendum and be fooled into voting to stay in...
I'm still waiting for you quote my supposed xenophobia.
Moderators,
Can we all post unsubstantiated claims about others? If I start referring to tim regularly as an anti-Semite for instance, would that be alright? Or would one-sided moderation happen?
Give me a moment, been having a couple of minor technical difficulties or I'd have cut this off earlier.
I wasn't alive for the first EC referendum but I would have thought that this time it will be completely different as we have experience of being in the EU to base our vote on and the spread of anti-EU voices is now much larger and present in two of our major parties.
I normally just turn off arguments that get personal, but I think the ones between @tim and @Socrates are quite good. They're meaningful even when they're both slagging each other off. Please both keep up the good work.
It happened last time. I don't think Cameron can do it on his own, but I think Europhiles influence the debate so much, they will cover for him. Do you really expect many BBC journalists to challenge Cameron on whether he's got enough back to make the EU worth it?
But that is absolutely nothing to do with Cameron's position. It's about the difficulty of winning the argument against the combined forces of the BBC, big business, the unions, and the establishment generally.
Thus, if your argument is that a referendum will probably produce a Stay In result, then I agree with you; you're basically saying that a referendum can't be won by the Out side. That is PRECISELY why it would be irresponsible to hold an In/Out referendum before renegotiation, as it risks cementing the current unsatisfactory settlement for a generation, perhaps longer.
Thankfully now we have a widely-respected judge that can be invited on to to TV shows to give his view of whether the repatriations are consequential or not: Nigel Lawson.
I thought Lawson had called for the UK to leave the EU?
Most people would fairly conclude that he has consequently prejudged the matter, and so cannot impartially judge whether repatriations are consequential, beneficial, etc.
This is academic, since no meaningful negotiations will happen until after the general election in 2015, and the chances of Cameron leading a Conservative majority government after that general election are slim.
With the probability of any renegotiation occurring being small it is understandable that Lawson will prejudge the hypothetical renegotiation to campaign for his preferred outcome of leaving the EU.
Does anyone have a grasp of the numbers of strongly Eurosceptic Labour MPs? The battles over Europe are largely settled within the Conservatives, but perhaps Miliband will preside over a Labour party riven by battles over Europe to compare with the Major years.
Out of curiousity as you keep extolling the virtues of immigration and how area's of high immigration are such vibrant cultural and economic powerhouses.....why do you choose to live in liverpool which is according to the census 95% white british? I may be wrong but I seem to recall someone mentioning you moved there from Birmingham a multicultural heaven surely?
I don't think Socrates argument is that immigrants have driven pubs out of business
Thats exactly what he's saying
It's no surprise that those with a local pub are more likely to vote UKIP, because they still have a community that they're worried is breaking down due to huge numbers of incomers not participating in it.
Yet it's rural and suburban pubs rather than those in cities closing in larger numbers.
Except there is no mention of pubs closing down in that statement. The earlier mention of pubs was just that it signified an area where there was a sense of small village community.
" I can see that a lot of people growing up here don't really realise what a sense of community is, because the population is ever shifting. .... They don't realise what they're missing. It's not fear of foreigners that drives the UKIP vote, it's just desire to hang on to something special."
I don't think Socrates argument is that immigrants have driven pubs out of business
Thats exactly what he's saying
It's no surprise that those with a local pub are more likely to vote UKIP, because they still have a community that they're worried is breaking down due to huge numbers of incomers not participating in it.
Yet it's rural and suburban pubs rather than those in cities closing in larger numbers.
The city pubs stay open because of commuters not because of the sense a local community
Those in London away from the sq mile are closing
In East London it is probably because of the large Asian community, hence the pubs close as the whites fly
It happened last time. I don't think Cameron can do it on his own, but I think Europhiles influence the debate so much, they will cover for him. Do you really expect many BBC journalists to challenge Cameron on whether he's got enough back to make the EU worth it?
But that is absolutely nothing to do with Cameron's position. It's about the difficulty of winning the argument against the combined forces of the BBC, big business, the unions, and the establishment generally.
Thus, if your argument is that a referendum will probably produce a Stay In result, then I agree with you; you're basically saying that a referendum can't be won by the Out side. That is PRECISELY why it would be irresponsible to hold an In/Out referendum before renegotiation, as it risks cementing the current unsatisfactory settlement for a generation, perhaps longer.
I think long term we can win the argument. I'd be very confident in winning a vote if there wasn't a renegotiation, as people know full well how bad the current status quo with the EU is. My concern is that an alliance between the left-liberal establishment and the Conservative leadership will be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the public for a short period.
That said, I'd still rather have a referendum than not. The EU is not my only issue, but if it looks like the Tories might get back in, I may well hold my nose and vote for them, depending on how things go on other issues. However, if it looks like Labour are going to be in regardless, I'd rather UKIP got as big a vote as possible, to pressure the Tories into selection a genuine eurosceptic to replace Cameron.
Comments
France is let off as they are still sweating the nuclear deal.
UKIP tap into voters sense that the country has changed, and in a way they do not like. This is a sensibility much more likely in older patients who can remember how it used to be, so inevitably an older demographic.
Youngsters like my son have experienced much less change. He has lived in multicultural Leicester all his life, and finds nothing to fear in this. He plans to study and possibly work in the EU and would be very opposed to leaving. He finds the UKIP worldview bizarre.
UKIP will put Labour in power, probably until 2020, so he has little to fear in terms of EU withdrawal for the forseable, for better or worse.
https://twitter.com/oflynnexpress/status/332053349048401920
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article3758539.ece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia
The UK fertility rate is sufficiently near replacement level that a net inflow of tens of thousands i or fewer sounds about right to maintain a level UK population. Coalition wins again!
"ED MILLIBAND GAFFES AS HE TWEETS TRIBUTE TO SIR ALEX FERGUSON AS IF HE WAS DEAD"
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/313455/Ed-Milliband-gaffes-as-he-tweets-tribute-to-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-as-if-he-was-DEAD/
"My job is to teach people who get Firsts to work for those who get 2:1s"
We do need to bear in mind that our universities increasingly draw students from second and third generation migrants, who tend to have been brought up in more traditional households (in large part the reason that their academic achievements are high). These students influence the culture of university and influence their UK equivalent. Medical Students play less rugger and drink much less beer than when I trained, and have more active islamic societies.
And frankly looking at Poland's dempgraphics I'd say Poland will have more need to restrict access out of the country, than Germany has allowing people in.
Japan has 5% unemployment so there is a pool of potential workers to look after the elderly, and a pool of workers that is in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly.
We could do worse than copy them!
SNP MSP Mark McDonald is resigning his list seat to go for it.
Labour will field WIllie Young.
14,000 asylum seekers will change nothing when outward migration is substantially more. That's about 20% of those going to Germany last year.
Could be three times if that nice Brazilian guy manages to get a visa. Sorry, Socrates!
Personally, as one who is in the later 70's now (just) I think your son is right. My children, and those grandchildren of working age, believe the world is their oyster.
In a lighter vein, I had my own little culture shock in my Washington hotel (Kellogg) - they don't do bath plugs. Is this common in the US? It doesn't really bother me as my Russian mum brought me up to think that plugs in sinks and baths are disgusting ("you just redistribute the dirt over your body instead of washing it away"), but I remember some travellers to Moscow used to get worked up about it and would conjecture that it showed the failure of the Soviet system.
Re: Fergie's Successor:
"BBC Sports editor David Bond says United are confident of announcing a successor to Ferguson before the weekend.
He believes they are looking for someone who understands the club's history and is committed to youth development while employing an attractive, attacking style of football."
This specification brings a certain Ole Gunnar Solskjær to mind, currently available at around 50/1 (various) and maybe therefore worth a quid or two, although the betting market appears certain that David Moyes, priced at 2/5, is destined for the job.
As ever, DYOR.
I'm not entirely sure why this is the case but until it changes the Tories have absolutely no chance of a majority when people blame them for everything even when they aren't in power.
My father is planning to vote UKIP, but is fluent in french, german, spanish and Italian. He has travelled extensively across six continents (cruising the Volga as I write). He does fit the angry white elderly demographic, but his is an informed world view, even if I dislike his conclusions.
My experience of plugs in the USA is similar, in a land of abundance squandering hot water is considered normal. Sitting in stagnant water only seems to appeal to Yanks if in a Jacuzzi and the water is shared. It doesnt seem to kill many of them!
Having grown up in the Shires and now living in London, I can see that a lot of people growing up here don't really realise what a sense of community is, because the population is ever shifting. It's like people who grow up in dysfunctional families who don't want to get married. They don't realise what they're missing. It's not fear of foreigners that drives the UKIP vote, it's just desire to hang on to something special. It's no surprise that those with a local pub are more likely to vote UKIP, because they still have a community that they're worried is breaking down due to huge numbers of incomers not participating in it.
UKIP are very forward looking in a lot of ways. They want to trade with the rest of the world. It's the EU that's the out-of-date 1950s dream, complete with half the budget used to prop up the traditional French rural way of life and protectionist barriers on foreign companies. But a sensible policy platform involves appreciating what are the good things we've inherited from the previous generation and trying to preserve them, as well as trying to improve things where we're not doing so well.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/05/after-leaving-office-margaret-thatcher-believed-britain-should-leave-the-eu/
You and the Romanian ambassador,I'm afraid are out of date.
Here are per-capita GDP numbers by PPP (so it takes account of how much stuff you can buy with your money and Japan gets the full benefit of its deflation):
http://www.indexmundi.com/japan/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html
http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html
Pick whatever period you like, the UK is doing better per-head. I love the idea of young unemployed Japanese people being "in tune with the Japanese culture of respect for the elderly".
TBF there is still room to integrate more women into the workforce.
@LabourList: Harrow Labour Group splits, as several councillors form "Independent Labour Group" http://labli.st/18tqNZL
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/05/why-david-cameron-cant-do-a-wilson-on-eu-renegotiation/
It points out the dangers of a "sham negotiation", where Cameron only gets minor repatriations, and he comes home and announces them as a great change, and the europhile parties and the europhile sections of the mediaback him up.
Thankfully now we have a widely-respected judge that can be invited on to to TV shows to give his view of whether the repatriations are consequential or not: Nigel Lawson.
Very good news for the prancing horse, if true:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22447414
Or you can just go on being a dick. Your call.
It quite rightly points out that this won't be a sham negotiation like Wilson's, concluding:
In the age of Twitter and the blogosphere, fuelled by bitter memories of the past, a sham would be exposed very quickly.
Lord Lawson is very welcome to his view that renegotiation will fail, but his warning simply underlines how hard it will be for Cameron can pull a Wilson. The economics of our current terms of membership may be dire – but, so long as we hold our leaders to account, we should at least try to address them before leaving.
I really can't see how any sane non-Europhile can disagree with Cameron's position on this. We get what we can (and who knows what that will be?), and then the people decide if it's enough.
The three killers have been
1. tougher drink driving laws which have put off townies tripping out to the sticks for a pint
2. higher booze taxes which make it cheaper to drink supermarket discounts at home
3. smoking ban which disenfranchised half the regulars.
age has nothing to do with it.
If David Cameron's position was to negotiate on behalf of the British public in an honest way - stating what he thinks we should get back, trying to get that, and then coming back and giving his honest assessment for a vote - then I'd agree. But we all know he's not going to do that. He's going to avoid saying what he wants, go to Brussels, and come back with a full PR exercise to pretend it was a success, regardless of what he actually gets. That's why eurosceptics don't trust him: we all know he's going to do his best to pull the wool over the public's eyes to stay in.
How can you correct people when you don't live in a multicultural area,the pubs in the area I live have closed because we have a majority muslim population and so they no need for pubs where drinking is not needed in the muslim culture,it's not xenophobic propaganda,it's fact.
Can you quote where I said something on this thread that showed a dislike of people from foreign countries? Considering that my long-term partner is a foreigner, it doesn't quite square.
I could also add an older problem associated with the breaking up of tied pubs. Since then we've had rapacious property co.s asking for unrealistic rents and pushing landlords out of business.
So when I ask you to quote where I have said something xenophobic, you just make up a quote that was never said?
You're a compulsive liar.
Outside the town centre, there's been a string of pub closures since we moved there 5 years ago. In my experience, most Hindus and Sikhs don't drink, as well, so when I went down to the Southall by-election, some years ago, it was remarkably hard to find a restaurant that sold alcohol.
I like to think that we in PB are in some way a family. A family knows how to deal with these types.
The absence of plugs in baths and basins was a failure of the communist five year planning model and not an health initiative.
The same applied to lightbulbs, fifty percent of which, wherever the location, never worked. You will be claiming this was an early green energy saving policy next, Dr. Palmer.
Sunny Hundal @sunny_hundal 58s
Green MP @CarolineLucas says she'll join a picket line against her own Green-controlled council http://bit.ly/18XCe9q
For the most part I don't. But given that he's got so little life he posts on here twice as much as anyone else, and half his posts are insults, the unpleasant behaviour tends to dominate the thread. It can be hard to avoid sometimes.
What I don't understand is why the moderators put up with it. Other posters get banned for far less.
I don't think Socrates argument is that immigrants have driven pubs out of business and that has made the natives vote UKIP but rather that UKIP voters value a culture based on small village pub life and don't understand the 'world is your oyster' lot
I'm still waiting for you quote my supposed xenophobia.
Moderators,
Can we all post unsubstantiated claims about others? If I start referring to tim regularly as an anti-Semite for instance, would that be alright? Or would one-sided moderation happen?
1) I want a referendum on leaving the EU, in which I would vote to leave.
2) Cameron has offered a referendum, after a renegotiation.
3) I think the renegotiation won't achieve much
4) So I'd still want to vote to leave the EU
5) So I don't want the referendum.
It is, frankly, bonkers, unless you think Cameron is some of amazing political superstar who can somehow fool the people despite the best efforts of the Eurosceptics/Europhobes to point out the truth. Now, as you know, I'm a great admirer of Cameron, but even I don't think that.
Better to have no referendum and stay in the EU than to have a referendum and be fooled into voting to stay in...
There you go, listening to the actual argument rather than mischaracterising it. How will you be able to knock it down as a straw man if you do that?
Thanks.
I wasn't alive for the first EC referendum but I would have thought that this time it will be completely different as we have experience of being in the EU to base our vote on and the spread of anti-EU voices is now much larger and present in two of our major parties.
What fun you could have had at the 2 Ed's expense.
Is Ed wearing a black armband today as a mark of respect for poor old Alex passing away?
What a clueless numpty the man is.
Thus, if your argument is that a referendum will probably produce a Stay In result, then I agree with you; you're basically saying that a referendum can't be won by the Out side. That is PRECISELY why it would be irresponsible to hold an In/Out referendum before renegotiation, as it risks cementing the current unsatisfactory settlement for a generation, perhaps longer.
Sky sources: Everton manager David Moyes to be confirmed as Manchester United manager in next few days
LOL - If true,Man u fans ,goodbye to your title success.
Most people would fairly conclude that he has consequently prejudged the matter, and so cannot impartially judge whether repatriations are consequential, beneficial, etc.
This is academic, since no meaningful negotiations will happen until after the general election in 2015, and the chances of Cameron leading a Conservative majority government after that general election are slim.
With the probability of any renegotiation occurring being small it is understandable that Lawson will prejudge the hypothetical renegotiation to campaign for his preferred outcome of leaving the EU.
Does anyone have a grasp of the numbers of strongly Eurosceptic Labour MPs? The battles over Europe are largely settled within the Conservatives, but perhaps Miliband will preside over a Labour party riven by battles over Europe to compare with the Major years.
I must say there was a local cliquey atmosphere in them and they were busy most nights....
And there were no more than two immigrants as far as I knew in the village...
A very ukip place, can imagine Nige in The Hoop
But I think the reason pubs are closing is because supermarkets are undercutting them so ruthlessly...
I like Magners, in my local it is £4.20 a bottle, in Aldi you can buy six bottles for £6.95...
Don't think the poles on £60 a day go to their local for the banter though! Why would you when you've got ten mates living in the same house?
Out of curiousity as you keep extolling the virtues of immigration and how area's of high immigration are such vibrant cultural and economic powerhouses.....why do you choose to live in liverpool which is according to the census 95% white british? I may be wrong but I seem to recall someone mentioning you moved there from Birmingham a multicultural heaven surely?
Except there is no mention of pubs closing down in that statement. The earlier mention of pubs was just that it signified an area where there was a sense of small village community.
" I can see that a lot of people growing up here don't really realise what a sense of community is, because the population is ever shifting. .... They don't realise what they're missing. It's not fear of foreigners that drives the UKIP vote, it's just desire to hang on to something special."
Those in London away from the sq mile are closing
In East London it is probably because of the large Asian community, hence the pubs close as the whites fly
http://www.derelictlondon.com/east-london.html
That said, I'd still rather have a referendum than not. The EU is not my only issue, but if it looks like the Tories might get back in, I may well hold my nose and vote for them, depending on how things go on other issues. However, if it looks like Labour are going to be in regardless, I'd rather UKIP got as big a vote as possible, to pressure the Tories into selection a genuine eurosceptic to replace Cameron.