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Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,591
edited July 24 in General
Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana – politicalbetting.com

OK so apparently both Corbyn and Sultana are right. This name won’t be registered with the Electoral Commission and isn’t THE name, it’s just a working title for now. Got it?

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,475
    edited July 24
    First!

    In a way that this new spotted dick party will never be…
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,971
    He's not the messiah.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,235
    "IT'S NOT YOUR PARTY, IT'S MY PARTY!"
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    edited July 24
    Joe Root is a genius. Review = out. All out 358.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    Stokes five-fer

    He really is incredible, and the only reason England are leading the series
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583
    Leon said:

    Stokes five-fer

    He really is incredible, and the only reason England are leading the series

    While that is true, you can also say the same of Gill for India - without his runs they would be 3-0 down.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,475
    edited July 24
    You wouldn’t get Bernie having a microphone surgically implanted into the back of his head so that AOC could make her speeches. That Corbyn is a true gent.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,669

    "IT'S NOT YOUR PARTY, IT'S MY PARTY!"

    And they'll cry if they want to.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,925

    "IT'S NOT YOUR PARTY, IT'S MY PARTY!"

    Who owned the Co-op party?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433
    What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

    It would actually in some ways be a rather clever name for a party, drawing a contrast with those who are the party of 'others.'

    It would be rather divisive but Corbyn is naturally divisive.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    edited July 24

    "IT'S NOT YOUR PARTY, IT'S MY PARTY!"

    It's a local party for local people. In Islington and Coventry. 😊
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433

    "IT'S NOT YOUR PARTY, IT'S MY PARTY!"

    Who owned the Co-op party?
    The members.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,772
    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,905

    "IT'S NOT YOUR PARTY, IT'S MY PARTY!"

    It’s my party and I’ll cry if I want to
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    edited July 24

    Leon said:

    Stokes five-fer

    He really is incredible, and the only reason England are leading the series

    While that is true, you can also say the same of Gill for India - without his runs they would be 3-0 down.
    Stokes is in a different league tho. A great fielder, a fine bowler, solid batter still (and he was world class and may well be again) plus peerless captaincy. He changes games by sheer force of will

    He is the best cricketer I have ever seen in the flesh, indeed the best sportsman I have ever seen in the flesh, and possibly the best English sportsman I've ever seen, full stop, on TV or anywhere

    I saw him hit that incredible century at Lord's in the last Ashes, where he hit more sixes in an innings than any Englishman ever (that was the day of the controversial stumping, which lit the fire under the series). Wowza
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,925
    Copilot Vision on Windows 11 sends data to Microsoft servers
    ...
    It does this, when enabled, by capturing constant screenshots and feeding them to an optical character recognition system and a large language model for analysis

    https://www.theregister.com/2025/07/23/microsoft_copilot_vision/?td=rt-3a

    Not yet in Europe but the privacy (and security) implications don't bear thinking about. So we won't think about them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,905
    System said:

    Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana – politicalbetting.com

    OK so apparently both Corbyn and Sultana are right. This name won’t be registered with the Electoral Commission and isn’t THE name, it’s just a working title for now. Got it?

    Read the full story here



    Well
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,925
    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    Does Theresa May see Corbyn as a successful party leader?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    Duckett will get 19, Crawley 24
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Stokes five-fer

    He really is incredible, and the only reason England are leading the series

    While that is true, you can also say the same of Gill for India - without his runs they would be 3-0 down.
    Stokes is in a different league tho. A great fielder, a fine bowler, solid batter still (and he was world class and may well be again) plus peerless captaincy. He changes games by sheer force of will

    He is the best cricketer I have ever seen in the flesh, indeed the best sportsman I have ever seen in the flesh, and possibly the best English sportsman I've ever seen, full stop, on TV or anywhere

    I saw him hit that incredible century at Lord's in the last Ashes, where he hit more sixes in an innings than any Englishman ever (that was the day of the controversial stumping, which lit the fire under the series). Wowza
    At the moment he is the best seam bowler in the team and more importantly he is the heartbeat of the team. He is currently in superb physical condition. I think his batting has fallen away somewhat (may well be the pressure of captaincy) and I think Smith would be better to bat at 6.

    As when Morgan stepped down from the one day side I fear for England when Stokes stops.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433
    edited July 24
    Leon said:

    Duckett will get 19, Crawley 24

    You've missed the decimal point out in Crawley's score.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    edited July 24
    We just need one excellent innings from Crawley or Duckett, 158 or something, then the rest of the team can get 300 between them, and we win the series

    C'mon!

    And even as I write that, Crawley nearly goes. Eesh
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,734
    I expect Corbyn to be at least as successful as Change UK, the Renew Party and the True and Fair Party, and all the other ego trips masquerading as political organisations we've had over the last turbulent decade.

    I imagine that if Starmer loses in 2029 it will be because he's crap, uncharismatic and hasn't addressed any of the country's problems - those that he hasn't exacerbated - rather than because his even crapper predecessor has founded a new party.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433
    Leon said:

    We just need one excellent innings from Crawley or Duckett, 158 or something, then the rest of the team can get 300 between them, and we win the series

    C'mon!

    And even as I write that, Crawley nearly goes. Eesh

    Similarly, we just need Netanyahu to have one moment of lucidity or compassion to resolve the immediate crisis in Gaza.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433
    Fishing said:

    I expect Corbyn to be at least as successful as Change UK, the Renew Party and the True and Fair Party, and all the other ego trips masquerading as political organisations we've had over the last turbulent decade.

    I imagine that if Starmer loses in 2029 it will be because he's crap, uncharismatic and hasn't addressed any of the country's problems - those that he hasn't exacerbated - rather than because his even crapper predecessor has founded a new party.

    Reform has done OK.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,369
    @MrHarryCole

    Unintentially hilarious from Magic Grandpa on Sultana:

    “We’re working absolutely together on this. She happens to be, as far as I know at this moment in Coventry."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    Unintentially hilarious from Magic Grandpa on Sultana:

    “We’re working absolutely together on this. She happens to be, as far as I know at this moment in Coventry."

    He's sent one of his comrades to Coventry? :hushed:
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    He's called Magic Grandpa for a reason.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    edited July 24
    Afternoon all, just had a look at tonight's Local by elections.

    Labour defending in Cardiff, if they lose it (to Reform) they are in real trouble
    Lib Dems should defend in Dacorum OK, no Reform here might boost the Tories but I think not nearly enough
    Rutland is a free for all with no greens defending and no Labour - not sure who the Indy is but probably indy or Ref gain
    Cons defend 4 - i think they hold in Bromley and Hertsmere but lose to Reform in Dorset and Lichfieid
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,543
    FPT:
    Cicero said:

    Columbia University has agreed to pay $200m (£147m) to the Trump administration over accusations that it had failed to protect its Jewish students. The settlement, which will be paid to the federal government over three years, was announced in a statement by the university on Wednesday.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq8zljpvyk0o

    This and CBS and so many more is the application of the mobster protection racket for small businesses mentality to corporate America.

    You can take the hood out of New York but you can't take New York out of the hood.
    When this is over, how will the US restore the rule of law?

    The corruption stinks to high heaven (as does Trump, apparently). The consequences for the place of the US in the global economy has got to include a massive increase in the US risk premium. The slow puncture of US asset prices is going to turn into a rout, the question is when that will happen and how big the gap down will be.
    It needs to do more than "rescue" it. They need to amend their stance to accepting that their system has flaws, and working out how get the institutionalised non-rule of law out of the system.

    Exhibit A: Presidential Pardons.

    A parallel situation applies to International Law imo (if it is still standing).

    The US position has often been "tolerate the rule of law, but don't sign up to treaties completely, then do what we want and inform the others that it is legal. No sign up means no possibility of it being questioned in a way we have to recognise."

    Exhibit B: The recent unilateral "extension" of the US Continental shelf by one million (ish) sq km:

    https://www.gibsondunn.com/mining-of-the-deep-sea-trump-administration-executive-order-international-law-framework-and-implications-for-investors/

    https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/resources/briefing-international-seabed-authority-deep-sea-mining/#:~:text=Nevertheless, in April, Trump signed,-sea mining would unleash.”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,088
    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    Unintentially hilarious from Magic Grandpa on Sultana:

    “We’re working absolutely together on this. She happens to be, as far as I know at this moment in Coventry."

    Corbyn seems less enthusiastic than Sultana. The arrogant old cuck seems to have been bounced into this.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,475

    Afternoon all, just had a look at tonight's Local by elections.

    Labour defending in Cardiff, if they lose it (to Reform) they are in real trouble
    Lib Dems should defend in Dacorum OK, no Reform here might boost the Tories but I think not nearly enough
    Rutland is a free for all with no greens defending and no Labour - not sure who the Indy is but probably indy or Ref gain
    Cons defend 4 - i think they hold in Bromley and Hertsmere but lose to Reform in Dorset and Lichfieid

    LDs might be in with a shout in Dorset and Rutland?
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 808
    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    As opposition leader he couldn't come up with a stance on Brexit
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,089
    IanB2 said:

    Afternoon all, just had a look at tonight's Local by elections.

    Labour defending in Cardiff, if they lose it (to Reform) they are in real trouble
    Lib Dems should defend in Dacorum OK, no Reform here might boost the Tories but I think not nearly enough
    Rutland is a free for all with no greens defending and no Labour - not sure who the Indy is but probably indy or Ref gain
    Cons defend 4 - i think they hold in Bromley and Hertsmere but lose to Reform in Dorset and Lichfieid

    LDs might be in with a shout in Dorset and Rutland?
    That sounds like an interestingly-shaped constituency!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583
    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,089
    edited July 24
    Duckett is either going to get a half-century before tea, or be back in the pavilion with half an hour to spare. Going the full Bazball!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    If it takes a thousand votes from Labour in every Labour constituency it returns right wing MPs and a right wing government.

    Mission accomplished.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    Monkeys said:

    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    As opposition leader he couldn't come up with a stance on Brexit
    Neither could he condemn the murder of Dawn Sturgess.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    They might pick up some success in inner London if they can come to a accommodation with the greens. They'll certainly win at least one assembly seat I think and perhaps 2 or 3 Westminster seats (In London) with a few shots elsewhere in industrial Lancashire/Yorks and in Birmingham .
    Galloway came very close in 3 seats and I expect them to beat his efforts fairly handsomely
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    England 19.

    Duckett 19, Crawley 0.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    Both Botham and Anderson's figures are a bit misleading. If you take out Anderson's first 20 or so Tests, when he was being horribly mismanaged, he averaged around 23-24. If you include Botham's first 50 Tests only, he averaged about 22 (he took half his wickets before 1982 at an average of just 18).

    In that period, Botham also averaged around 40 with the bat in Tests. After 1984 he scored one century and had no fifties.

    So at his best, Botham was a better all round player than Stokes. He was never quite so good with the bat as Stokes at his best, but was a much better bowler, possibly even better than Anderson although he couldn't maintain his fitness long enough to take as many wickets.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,088
    edited July 24

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    If it takes a thousand votes from Labour in every Labour constituency it returns right wing MPs and a right wing government.

    Mission accomplished.
    Fortunately for Labour the right
    is also divided between the
    Tories and Reform, with no major party polling consistently even over 30%
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    edited July 24
    IanB2 said:

    Afternoon all, just had a look at tonight's Local by elections.

    Labour defending in Cardiff, if they lose it (to Reform) they are in real trouble
    Lib Dems should defend in Dacorum OK, no Reform here might boost the Tories but I think not nearly enough
    Rutland is a free for all with no greens defending and no Labour - not sure who the Indy is but probably indy or Ref gain
    Cons defend 4 - i think they hold in Bromley and Hertsmere but lose to Reform in Dorset and Lichfieid

    LDs might be in with a shout in Dorset and Rutland?
    Rutland maybe, they didn't stand last time though so not sure on strength locally.
    They got 8% in Swanage last year in Dorset so I'm doubtful on that one
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,454
    Funny start to the innings.

    England 24-0

    Duckett has got 24 runs
    Crawley has not only not troubled the scorers, he also saved 4 runs Duckett should have scored.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433
    Speaking of Anderson he's doing a good job as captain here even if Gloucestershire's batsmen (Charlesworth apart) are doing what Gloucestershire's batsmen do best and throwing away their wickets in inventive ways when set.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    Both Botham and Anderson's figures are a bit misleading. If you take out Anderson's first 20 or so Tests, when he was being horribly mismanaged, he averaged around 23-24. If you include Botham's first 50 Tests only, he averaged about 22 (he took half his wickets before 1982 at an average of just 18).

    In that period, Botham also averaged around 40 with the bat in Tests. After 1984 he scored one century and had no fifties.

    So at his best, Botham was a better all round player than Stokes. He was never quite so good with the bat as Stokes at his best, but was a much better bowler, possibly even better than Anderson although he couldn't maintain his fitness long enough to take as many wickets.
    Its quite hard to maintain your fitness under a regime of weed, booze and shagging barmaids, but I'd say Botham did his best... Those Somerset years with Viv and Joel must have been fun.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    "Previewing the seven council by-elections of 24th July 2025

    "All the right votes, but not necessarily in the right order"
    Andrew Teale"

    https://andrewspreviews.substack.com/p/previewing-the-seven-council-by-elections-c80
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    Both Botham and Anderson's figures are a bit misleading. If you take out Anderson's first 20 or so Tests, when he was being horribly mismanaged, he averaged around 23-24. If you include Botham's first 50 Tests only, he averaged about 22 (he took half his wickets before 1982 at an average of just 18).

    In that period, Botham also averaged around 40 with the bat in Tests. After 1984 he scored one century and had no fifties.

    So at his best, Botham was a better all round player than Stokes. He was never quite so good with the bat as Stokes at his best, but was a much better bowler, possibly even better than Anderson although he couldn't maintain his fitness long enough to take as many wickets.
    Its quite hard to maintain your fitness under a regime of weed, booze and shagging barmaids, but I'd say Botham did his best... Those Somerset years with Viv and Joel must have been fun.
    Meanwhile Anderson's bowling on this flat pitch at Cheltenham is still of the very highest standard at the age of what, 43?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,308
    Monkeys said:

    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    As opposition leader he couldn't come up with a stance on Brexit
    He was opposed to having a position. He opposed, and yet he opposed opposing.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,454
    Huge round of applause as Crawley gets a single.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    Both Botham and Anderson's figures are a bit misleading. If you take out Anderson's first 20 or so Tests, when he was being horribly mismanaged, he averaged around 23-24. If you include Botham's first 50 Tests only, he averaged about 22 (he took half his wickets before 1982 at an average of just 18).

    In that period, Botham also averaged around 40 with the bat in Tests. After 1984 he scored one century and had no fifties.

    So at his best, Botham was a better all round player than Stokes. He was never quite so good with the bat as Stokes at his best, but was a much better bowler, possibly even better than Anderson although he couldn't maintain his fitness long enough to take as many wickets.
    I think the key thing for Botham was that at his best he was the best bowler in the team and close to the best batsman too. That's rare (Jacques Kallis springs to mind). I don't think Stokes has ever been England's best batsman, mainly because Root has always been there. And he has also been in teams with Anderson and Broad most of his career too.

    Botham was so good for England that he created a problem that hadn't been there - finding the next Botham. So many really good allrounders suffered in comparison. Perhaps Flintoff and Stokes are the two that have come closest?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    But Stokes has given us Bazball, and is also a far superior captain - no small thing
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    If it takes a thousand votes from Labour in every Labour constituency it returns right wing MPs and a right wing government.

    Mission accomplished.
    Fortunately for Labour the right is also divided between the Tories and Reform, with mo major party polling consistently even over 30%
    Reform seem to have pulled away from the Tories which puts them very much in the driving seat . Corbyn will merely adjust the driving seat to make it even more comfortable for them.

    The man is an enigma. A self proclaimed champion of the underdog who inadvertently keeps the underdog on his knees.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,184
    It's Your Party and you can cry if you want to.

    Take Palestine into public ownership, and a two-state solution for Thames Water. Or something like that.

    From the river to the sea, they'll be discharging raw sewage.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    But Stokes has given us Bazball, and is also a far superior captain - no small thing
    Bazball mark 2, which we are on now, is superb. If they had used this in the last Ashes it wouldn't have been 2-2.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    Both Botham and Anderson's figures are a bit misleading. If you take out Anderson's first 20 or so Tests, when he was being horribly mismanaged, he averaged around 23-24. If you include Botham's first 50 Tests only, he averaged about 22 (he took half his wickets before 1982 at an average of just 18).

    In that period, Botham also averaged around 40 with the bat in Tests. After 1984 he scored one century and had no fifties.

    So at his best, Botham was a better all round player than Stokes. He was never quite so good with the bat as Stokes at his best, but was a much better bowler, possibly even better than Anderson although he couldn't maintain his fitness long enough to take as many wickets.
    I think the key thing for Botham was that at his best he was the best bowler in the team and close to the best batsman too. That's rare (Jacques Kallis springs to mind). I don't think Stokes has ever been England's best batsman, mainly because Root has always been there. And he has also been in teams with Anderson and Broad most of his career too.

    Botham was so good for England that he created a problem that hadn't been there - finding the next Botham. So many really good allrounders suffered in comparison. Perhaps Flintoff and Stokes are the two that have come closest?
    There was a period where Root was averaging around 40 with the bat and Stokes 56 - that very long period where Root was captain and kept getting out for pretty 50s.

    In the Botham peak period he also had Boycott and Gower ahead of him in the order much of the time.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294

    It's Your Party and you can cry if you want to.

    Take Palestine into public ownership, and a two-state solution for Thames Water. Or something like that.

    From the river to the sea, they'll be discharging raw sewage.

    Goodness me no!

    Corbyn doesn't want to be doing that. Deliver a Tory government and carp from the sidelines. That's how politics should be done.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,235
    Andy_JS said:


    Duckett 19, Crawley 0.

    Amazing football match :lol:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,433
    So the next question for Sir James:

    Does he enforce the follow on when Gloucestershire are all out at tea?

    I would say yes but he may fancy another 150 quick runs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    England are going to win this match I think. Maybe even quite easily.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    Andy_JS said:

    England are going to win this match I think. Maybe even quite easily.

    Well, that's fucked it then
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana

    Careful, Zarah will find a way to claim that saying such a thing is racist and sexist....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,088
    edited July 24

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    If it takes a thousand votes from Labour in every Labour constituency it returns right wing MPs and a right wing government.

    Mission accomplished.
    Fortunately for Labour the right is also divided between the Tories and Reform, with mo major party polling consistently even over 30%
    Reform seem to have pulled away from the Tories which puts them very much in the driving seat . Corbyn will merely adjust the driving seat to make it even more comfortable for them.

    The man is an enigma. A self proclaimed champion of the underdog who inadvertently keeps the underdog on his knees.
    For now, if Kemi's new axe
    spending and leave the ECHR
    policies don't win back Tory voters from Reform she will likely be replaced by Jenrick or Stride who might start to do so
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,235

    Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana

    Careful, Zarah will find a way to claim that saying such a thing is racist and sexist....

    :innocent:


  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 24
    Andy_JS said:

    England are going to win this match I think. Maybe even quite easily.

    You haven't got hang of this prediction lark have you.....you have to project worst possible outcome, secretly wish casting that Ben Stokes will perform miracles, again.....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,543

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    They might pick up some success in inner London if they can come to a accommodation with the greens. They'll certainly win at least one assembly seat I think and perhaps 2 or 3 Westminster seats (In London) with a few shots elsewhere in industrial Lancashire/Yorks and in Birmingham .
    Galloway came very close in 3 seats and I expect them to beat his efforts fairly handsomely
    I posted the scheme yesterday for the greening / pedestrianisation of most of Nash's processional route in London.

    It's quite startling that the scheme has 66% polling support, and the comments even at places like the Telegraph have been positive. So far the moaning minnies are the LTDA, and there was a surprisingly "anti" piece in The Stage about access to theatres, by an author for whom when she did a big accessibility survey here users did not raise the issue.

    The worm could be turning ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    If it takes a thousand votes from Labour in every Labour constituency it returns right wing MPs and a right wing government.

    Mission accomplished.
    Fortunately for Labour the right is also divided between the Tories and Reform, with mo major party polling consistently even over 30%
    Reform seem to have pulled away from the Tories which puts them very much in the driving seat . Corbyn will merely adjust the driving seat to make it even more comfortable for them.

    The man is an enigma. A self proclaimed champion of the underdog who inadvertently keeps the underdog on his knees.
    For now, if Kemi's new axe spending and leave the ECHR policies doesn't win back Tory voters from Reform she will likely be replaced by Jenrick or Stride who might start to do so
    I am not sure Jenrick or Stride do much to improve the Tories's hopes. Cleverly going to the centre might.

    Your best hope is Farage gets bored or succumbs to too much beer/ red wine and fags.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,089
    Bazball’s back!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 24

    Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana

    Careful, Zarah will find a way to claim that saying such a thing is racist and sexist....

    :innocent:


    Observer should not have caved on that. There was nothing racist about that cartoon. Was it funny, not really. But in comparison to normal political cartoons, especially in Guardian / Observer, over the recent past, most aren't, but are far more savage. Snowflake generation.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,368
    A challenger on the Left (in addition to the Greens) is nothing but a negative for Labour. I won't be tempted (I see it as self-indulgent) but I bet some people will be. They'll think Labour under Starmer is not the beautiful game so let's do a feelgood vote. The good news (for Labour) is the new party's lack of credible leadership. It seems the only Jeremy Corbyn they can find to front the operation is the actual Jeremy Corbyn. This will surely hold them back.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,424
    Off topic, but timely: There is a Scottish Highlands festival this weekend south of Seattle.

    The Seattle Scottish Highland Games Association is dedicated to the perpetuation of the Scottish arts, traditions & customs to inspire new generations to take part in their stories. Bringing Scotland to the Pacific Northwest for over 75 years through the skirl of the Pipes and Drums, the beauty of Highland Dancing, the brawn of Scottish athletics, and the sharing of clan history. The Association provides venues that help you explore connections to your Scottish ancestry.
    https://www.sshga.org/

    It's in Enumclaw, Washington: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumclaw,_Washington
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294

    Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana

    Careful, Zarah will find a way to claim that saying such a thing is racist and sexist....

    Come on Urquhart, these heroes are going to bring down Starmer. Give them a break.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,200

    Monkeys said:

    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    As opposition leader he couldn't come up with a stance on Brexit
    Neither could he condemn the murder of Dawn Sturgess.
    She was a Russian target as well? I didn't know that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    They might pick up some success in inner London if they can come to a accommodation with the greens. They'll certainly win at least one assembly seat I think and perhaps 2 or 3 Westminster seats (In London) with a few shots elsewhere in industrial Lancashire/Yorks and in Birmingham .
    Galloway came very close in 3 seats and I expect them to beat his efforts fairly handsomely
    I posted the scheme yesterday for the greening / pedestrianisation of most of Nash's processional route in London.

    It's quite startling that the scheme has 66% polling support, and the comments even at places like the Telegraph have been positive. So far the moaning minnies are the LTDA, and there was a surprisingly "anti" piece in The Stage about access to theatres, by an author for whom when she did a big accessibility survey here users did not raise the issue.

    The worm could be turning ?
    It's a good idea. London needs new thinking, and zhoozhing up
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    England 50 for no loss.....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,884
    Just to be clear -

    1) is it Your Party”
    2) is it “Your Party for the Liberation of Judea”
    3) is it “Your Party for the Popular Font for….

    SPLITTER!!!!!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,010
    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico

    Whilst "Your Party" has no official name I presume everyone will continue with their own versions - "Fruit & Nuts Party"; "Jezzara Party"; "Gazan People's Front"; "Grapes of Froth Party"; etc.
    What name will you use?

    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1948354486273024486
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,940
    kinabalu said:

    A challenger on the Left (in addition to the Greens) is nothing but a negative for Labour. I won't be tempted (I see it as self-indulgent) but I bet some people will be. They'll think Labour under Starmer is not the beautiful game so let's do a feelgood vote. The good news (for Labour) is the new party's lack of credible leadership. It seems the only Jeremy Corbyn they can find to front the operation is the actual Jeremy Corbyn. This will surely hold them back.

    ROFL

    And where's Labour's credible leadership ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,368

    kinabalu said:

    A challenger on the Left (in addition to the Greens) is nothing but a negative for Labour. I won't be tempted (I see it as self-indulgent) but I bet some people will be. They'll think Labour under Starmer is not the beautiful game so let's do a feelgood vote. The good news (for Labour) is the new party's lack of credible leadership. It seems the only Jeremy Corbyn they can find to front the operation is the actual Jeremy Corbyn. This will surely hold them back.

    ROFL

    And where's Labour's credible leadership ?
    It wasn't a comedy post, Alan.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434
    Monkeys said:

    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    As opposition leader he couldn't come up with a stance on Brexit
    Tbf various PMs and Corbyn's successor weren't very good at it either, unless get Brexit done and mumble, mumble count as Bismarkian brilliance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,884
    viewcode said:

    Monkeys said:

    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    As opposition leader he couldn't come up with a stance on Brexit
    He was opposed to having a position. He opposed, and yet he opposed opposing.
    He has been a Brexiter since forever. His allies spent all their time telling him not to say it out loud.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,205

    Afternoon all, just had a look at tonight's Local by elections.

    Labour defending in Cardiff, if they lose it (to Reform) they are in real trouble
    Lib Dems should defend in Dacorum OK, no Reform here might boost the Tories but I think not nearly enough
    Rutland is a free for all with no greens defending and no Labour - not sure who the Indy is but probably indy or Ref gain
    Cons defend 4 - i think they hold in Bromley and Hertsmere but lose to Reform in Dorset and Lichfieid

    I think that Reform have a good chance in Brookmeadow. They won both Borehamwood County Council seats.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,780

    Just to be clear -

    1) is it Your Party”
    2) is it “Your Party for the Liberation of Judea”
    3) is it “Your Party for the Popular Font for….

    SPLITTER!!!!!!

    What about the Your Liberation of Judea Party?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,672
    Andy_JS said:

    "Previewing the seven council by-elections of 24th July 2025

    "All the right votes, but not necessarily in the right order"
    Andrew Teale"

    https://andrewspreviews.substack.com/p/previewing-the-seven-council-by-elections-c80

    The piece on the electoral court is quite something - a Reform candidate going to court because she, erm, lost the tie breaker draw after a dead heat with the Greens in a Worcs county councillor election.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    What the f##k was that from Crawley.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,088

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    If it takes a thousand votes from Labour in every Labour constituency it returns right wing MPs and a right wing government.

    Mission accomplished.
    Fortunately for Labour the right is also divided between the Tories and Reform, with mo major party polling consistently even over 30%
    Reform seem to have pulled away from the Tories which puts them very much in the driving seat . Corbyn will merely adjust the driving seat to make it even more comfortable for them.

    The man is an enigma. A self proclaimed champion of the underdog who inadvertently keeps the underdog on his knees.
    For now, if Kemi's new axe spending and leave the ECHR policies doesn't win back Tory voters from Reform she will likely be replaced by Jenrick or Stride who might start to do so
    I am not sure Jenrick or Stride do much to improve the Tories's hopes. Cleverly going to the centre might.

    Your best hope is Farage gets bored or succumbs to too much beer/ red wine and fags.
    Stride can go heavyweight on the economy and at least get the Tories back to Sunak 2024 levels
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,932

    Monty Python cannot compete with Corbyn and Sultana

    Careful, Zarah will find a way to claim that saying such a thing is racist and sexist....

    I’m the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.

    I win on the race card.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    Sean_F said:

    Afternoon all, just had a look at tonight's Local by elections.

    Labour defending in Cardiff, if they lose it (to Reform) they are in real trouble
    Lib Dems should defend in Dacorum OK, no Reform here might boost the Tories but I think not nearly enough
    Rutland is a free for all with no greens defending and no Labour - not sure who the Indy is but probably indy or Ref gain
    Cons defend 4 - i think they hold in Bromley and Hertsmere but lose to Reform in Dorset and Lichfieid

    I think that Reform have a good chance in Brookmeadow. They won both Borehamwood County Council seats.
    Actually on reviewing that, yeah its not a bad shot for them. The Indy Vince did very well in May too. Its nowhere near as strong a part of Hertsmere as id thought for the blue team
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beyond areas where Corbynite Independents already do well, I can't see the new party getting that much traction with FPTP.

    If we had PR like Germany they might gain more traction and seats as Linke have. In France Melenchon's party effectively has formed a combined block with the Socialist Party under their second ballot system

    If it takes a thousand votes from Labour in every Labour constituency it returns right wing MPs and a right wing government.

    Mission accomplished.
    Fortunately for Labour the right is also divided between the Tories and Reform, with mo major party polling consistently even over 30%
    Reform seem to have pulled away from the Tories which puts them very much in the driving seat . Corbyn will merely adjust the driving seat to make it even more comfortable for them.

    The man is an enigma. A self proclaimed champion of the underdog who inadvertently keeps the underdog on his knees.
    For now, if Kemi's new axe spending and leave the ECHR policies doesn't win back Tory voters from Reform she will likely be replaced by Jenrick or Stride who might start to do so
    I am not sure Jenrick or Stride do much to improve the Tories's hopes. Cleverly going to the centre might.

    Your best hope is Farage gets bored or succumbs to too much beer/ red wine and fags.
    Stride can go heavyweight on the economy and at least get the Tories back to Sunak 2024 levels
    But one of the reasons you got mullered was the economy post Truss. Now you can say the economy was going gangbusters for the two months prior to the election, but no one believed you then and they still don't.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,401
    Loved the new South Park episode. Trump will absolutely hate it once it's brought to him attention. The use of a Trump AI deep fake in particular.

    The pure playground mockery is excellent. When someone is beyond satire in his actions, yet incredibly thin skinned, it might be the most effective form of comedy for them.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,733
    AnneJGP said:

    It's still hard for me to see Mr Corbyn as a successful party leader. As an MP, he's spent his life opposing.

    I don't think he's going to want to be party leader. One of the early decisions will be whether to go for collective leadership (which struggles to get media attention) or choose someone who most of us haven't yet heard of.

    I don't think the question of splitting the vote will be decisive at this point, since it looks as though a not-impossible 30% would be ample to be largest party, and ultimately one has to decide what one actually supports and not merely go for the least bad option. The new party needs to jump through several hoops to be taken seriously - a credible leader (or leaders), a reasonably broad base, and policies which look positively appealing to those of us on the left. Not pinning all those down in advance is, however, sensible.

    At that point it would become a credible alternative, attracting people like me - and I've been a Labour member for all my adult life, was an MP for 13 years, and I'm currently CLP constituency chair. Not yet, and maybe never, but it's not unreasonable to offer something beyond the current well-we're-not-quite-as-bad-as-the-others stance.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,425
    Spiffing sesh for England
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434
    I presume none of the PB lads who said Corbyn had no chance of holding his seat as an independent have recused themselves from chortling too much at the Zaremy show.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,089
    Sandpit said:

    Duckett is either going to get a half-century before tea, or be back in the pavilion with half an hour to spare. Going the full Bazball!

    I’ll live with 43, especially since Crawley finally woke up.

    77-0 in well under an hour, advantage England.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,992
    edited July 24
    England got 77 runs in 14 overs at tea. At the start of the Indian innings they got 78 in 28 so England's scoring rate is almost exactly double. It buys them a lot of time in the game and its demoralising for the opposition bowlers. Its also great to watch.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,349

    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico

    Whilst "Your Party" has no official name I presume everyone will continue with their own versions - "Fruit & Nuts Party"; "Jezzara Party"; "Gazan People's Front"; "Grapes of Froth Party"; etc.
    What name will you use?

    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1948354486273024486

    Jezlamists Party would be my choice.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,791

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Hot take: I've seen Botham and Flintoff AND Stokes in their pomp

    Stokes is, by a distance, superior to them both. Not least because he's such a superb captain, unlike them

    The best English cricketer and possibly English sportsman of my adult life

    Hmm. Its tricky comparing eras (and even Flintoff is almost a generation ago). Botham was an extraordinary player - 14 centuries at 33.54 and over 5000 runs (this is test numbers). Bowling he took 383 wickets at 28.40 in 102 matches.

    Jimmy took 704 in 188 at 26.45. That's essentially the same (so if Botham had played as many games he would have taken 700 wickets too). Clearly Botham enjoyed life* a lot and so played fewer tests and I think there were fewer in that ear anyway.

    Flintoff scored 5 centuries at an average of 31.77 and scored 3845 runs. Bowling he took 226 at 32.78.

    Stokes to date has 13 centuries at 35.15 and has scored 6891 runs. Bowling he has 224 wickets at 32.02 (from 114 test matches).



    From the numbers alone I would suggest that Botham is the better bowler than Flintoff and Stokes, but Stokes is possibly a better bat. Right now he seems better as a bowler than a bat, but it may turn round.
    Both Botham and Anderson's figures are a bit misleading. If you take out Anderson's first 20 or so Tests, when he was being horribly mismanaged, he averaged around 23-24. If you include Botham's first 50 Tests only, he averaged about 22 (he took half his wickets before 1982 at an average of just 18).

    In that period, Botham also averaged around 40 with the bat in Tests. After 1984 he scored one century and had no fifties.

    So at his best, Botham was a better all round player than Stokes. He was never quite so good with the bat as Stokes at his best, but was a much better bowler, possibly even better than Anderson although he couldn't maintain his fitness long enough to take as many wickets.
    Its quite hard to maintain your fitness under a regime of weed, booze and shagging barmaids, but I'd say Botham did his best... Those Somerset years with Viv and Joel must have been fun.
    How does shagging barmaids negatively impact fitness? Asking for a friend.
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