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The age cohorts least likely to be conscripted are the most in favour of conscription

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,262
    DavidL said:

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    And that is not the only misinformation. It claims:

    "This should not come as a surprise. Moscow put its economy on to a war footing some time ago. It appointed an economist as its defence minister and retooled many of its factories to churn out vast quantities of munitions, especially explosive-tipped drones."

    As if these munitions and drones were all sitting there neatly, waiting to attack us. Instead of having been used in an attritional war where Ukraine's production (and quality) of drones outpaces Russia. Where the Russians have exhausted reserves kept since the 1950s to put more tanks into the front line, over 10k of which have now been destroyed. Where vast numbers of artillery systems have been lost and continue to be lost on a daily basis. Completely misleading.
    What the Allies did in WWII (the UK was spending 20% of GDP on the military, in 1945), is switching your economy to a war footing.

    Russia’s production of armaments is nowhere close to matching losses.
  • novanova Posts: 738
    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,005

    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    Perhaps you should put your cock back in your trousers?
    He is waiting for the “women” who are ogling him to put theirs back in first.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,993

    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    Yes. It's liberating that nubile women stare at us oldsters. Although the glow of self satisfaction wears off when one realises one's flies are undone.
    You joke and the humour is appreciated but this is not pleasant. I might have to pretend to be gay to fend them off - a kind of “reverse beard”

    This has only happened to me twelve or thirteen times before - overwhelming female desire for me that causes upsets, even discord. Angry husbands. Fights. Special bodyguards to get me through the crowds of excitable girls all trying to grab me

  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,935
    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    Should've gone to Specsavers.

    Them and you.

    Seriously, though. I thought you were in your sixties? No? The Daniel Craig of PB, and even he's only in his fifties.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,537
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    It's already a world of hassle and pain.

    It should be put into administration and nationalised.
    Either way the customers will end up paying, but they'll pay less to borrow if it's government owned, and less money will go overseas.
    There seem to be two fears

    1) investors losing their money - foreign pension funds among them.
    2) the supply chain.

    For the first, any sane money manager would have written off their investment long ago.

    For the second, the government could lend money to cover suppliers bills and maintain operations.

    With the bond and shareholders wiped out, Thames Water becomes massively profitable. And could trivially pay back the loan from the government.

    Leaving a profitable business, going forward.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,630
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    Yes. It's liberating that nubile women stare at us oldsters. Although the glow of self satisfaction wears off when one realises one's flies are undone.
    You joke and the humour is appreciated but this is not pleasant. I might have to pretend to be gay to fend them off - a kind of “reverse beard”

    This has only happened to me twelve or thirteen times before - overwhelming female desire for me that causes upsets, even discord. Angry husbands. Fights. Special bodyguards to get me through the crowds of excitable girls all trying to grab me

    Maybe you resemble Pele or they recognise you from your cartoon portrait in the Spectator.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,307
    On to more interesting matters - I saw a pice this morning which claimed that in Lee Anderson's constituency and in particular the town of Ashfield, one third of the available work force is economically inactive. I presume Anderson and his branch of Reform won't be supporting cuts to welfare and benefits.

    The danger in public policy is when you treat England as a single homogenous mass. There are enormous disparities within and across regions and we need policy which is more "laser focused" (to use the vernacular) on areas which need help and support. It's an argument, perhaps, for moving the management of welfare (with the attendant monies and resources) to local councils to manage.

    In Newham, ONS quotes the proportion of those economically inactive at 26.7% while in Norwich it's 12.2%.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,630
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    Perhaps you should put your cock back in your trousers?
    He is waiting for the “women” who are ogling him to put theirs back in first.
    I was going to award @Daveyboy1961 post of the day, but now you've f*****' smashed it!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,993

    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    Should've gone to Specsavers.

    Them and you.

    Seriously, though. I thought you were in your sixties? No? The Daniel Craig of PB, and even he's only in his fifties.
    LatAm are now offering to helicopter me to Montevideo. Might be the only way to avoid a riot on the plane.

    Every single women is offering hard folding money to the checkin desk just to be “near” me. Absurd

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,996
    edited 9:34AM
    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    Have you checked your flies?

    Christ, very late to the party.
    I think this indicates where the worries of, ahem, late middle age repose.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,807
    Nigelb said:

    The implication of the 'deal' Trump seems to be negotiating are that it's quite likely Russia will be in a position to renew its invasion in a couple of years time - with the US completely disengaged militarily.

    We are yet to see anything conceded by Moscow. But trump has demanded that Zelenskyy prepare to concede territory, give away Ukraine natural resources and he's offering to lift sanctions on russia.

    A master deal maker who gives away the farm before negations even begin...

    https://x.com/JackRyanlives/status/1901790847672238531

    Any European politician who doesn't see that as a genuine risk is a fool.

    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,852
    I see that our tiresome troll is back, and being well fed this morning.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,285
    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    More likely someone copied the first thing they found online.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,681

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    More likely someone copied the first thing they found online.
    Something something incompetence rather than malice.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,537

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    More likely someone copied the first thing they found online.
    One of the reasons for the success of New Labour was their press operation. They realised that most hacks are lazy - so they fed pre-written stories to match their messaging grid.

    In the age of “AI” how many of those pieces are written by asking ChatGPT?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,285

    The Ukraine war did make me consider how Brits would react if we were in their shoes. Let’s imagine that France had invaded Kent and Sussex, having taken the Channel Islands already.

    An awful lot of Ukrainians have given up their normal lives to go and fight - and die. Would we have done the same?

    I’m having breakfast in Royal Tunbridge Wells and I’m struggling to conceive of kids from up north getting motivated enough to defend this very well to do spa town.

    A more relevant question would be whether the kids from London would have fled the country or been willing to defend it.

    The usual issues of immigration and housing having and effect on this perhaps.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375
    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The money has to come from somewhere

    If you drove it into administration you wipe out the equity holders (pension funds) but they have mainly written off their investments anyway. And the funding then comes from tax payers.

    Ultimately all funding for utilities comes from customers or taxpayers. There is no other source.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,778
    edited 9:45AM
    The OECD have made some new forecasts (stop laughing at the back)
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/trump-tariffs-rock-global-economy-gloomy-outlook-for-carney-s-canada-as-mexico-heads-into-recession/ar-AA1B720S?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=bcf1699f87824c3baa8f1e45cac5a230&ei=14

    Trump's tariffs are enough to put Mexico into recession and cut growth pretty much everywhere, including the United States. What a genius.

    Slightly weirdly, the UK is forecast to have the third highest growth of the countries listed but Reeves is on the job. FWIW I think that many of these forecasts are on the optimistic side, including ours.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797
    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    I don't think it's Trumpy disinformation - I think it's laziness or the writer being spread too thin. Was it perhaps written by an intern, or AI, and the author topped and tailed it?

    It's Frank Gardner who is a 30 year BBC veteran, so should be better.

    It also has things like:

    Let's start with the numbers. According to the Kiel Institute, which meticulously tracks these things, Europe spends just 0.1% of its wealth on helping to defend Ukraine, while the US has been spending 0.15%.

    There's the change over time not accounted for, the confusion between "wealth" and "GDP" ie stock vs flow, and no clarity on the period meant for "spends just 0.1% etc" ie is it 0.1% per annum or 0.1% of one year's GDP over 3+ years.

    The latter has been used as a unit by the media, so it needs to be clarified.

    Really, this is just quality journalism not being applied.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,935
    Leon said:

    War?? What do you fools know of WAR

    *stares moodily across the moonlit runways of Sao Paolo airport*

    Only those of us who have seen the true horror of war, smelt the reek of rotten death, gazed at the severed limbs and ruined cities - only we privileged yet traumatised veterans and heroes get to speak of this

    WAR

    And I say pack the whining brats off to the trenches, pronto

    Stand back a bit and look at what's happening. Take Germany.

    Germany is about to rearm big-time. Due to fears about Trump withdrawing the US from Europe.

    The second biggest political party in Germany is now one made up of neo-Nazis. Helped along by the endorsement of Vance.

    We've seen this before haven't we? (Though not with the active agency of the US).

    When countries are placed under stress, there's no knowing what could happen.

    The gift of Trump, the "peace-maker".
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,280

    The Ukraine war did make me consider how Brits would react if we were in their shoes. Let’s imagine that France had invaded Kent and Sussex, having taken the Channel Islands already.

    An awful lot of Ukrainians have given up their normal lives to go and fight - and die. Would we have done the same?

    I’m having breakfast in Royal Tunbridge Wells and I’m struggling to conceive of kids from up north getting motivated enough to defend this very well to do spa town.

    A more relevant question would be whether the kids from London would have fled the country or been willing to defend it.

    The usual issues of immigration and housing having and effect on this perhaps.
    I think that in the event of war being inevitable you'd have young men queuing up at recruiting offices.
    And young women, too.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,537

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The money has to come from somewhere

    If you drove it into administration you wipe out the equity holders (pension funds) but they have mainly written off their investments anyway. And the funding then comes from tax payers.

    Ultimately all funding for utilities comes from customers or taxpayers. There is no other source.
    If Thames went bankrupt, the removal of the debt burden would mean that the company would be making more money than it is spending.

    Profits, they used to call them. Provided they are stopped from re-financialisation…
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,726
    Trumpski economics:


    Conor Sen
    @conorsen.bsky.social‬

    BofA fund manager survey: biggest drop in US equity allocation on record

    https://bsky.app/profile/conorsen.bsky.social/post/3lkndfh73dk2x
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,923

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
    You could say the same about every infrastructure project. It's how a nation state works.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375
    eek said:

    Battlebus said:

    Off Topic.

    Can we have another discussion on mobile phone and internet masts. PB seems to be ahead of the curve on where these masts should be placed.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cx2ge0ejg08o

    WTAF put the cabinet on the road side of the pavement

    Then I saw it was Kingston Telecom (as Hull always had its own telecom company for “reasons”) and it makes perfect sense they are utter idiots
    “Reasons” are because it was set up by the council when all telecom companies were local and they refused to accept the acquisition offer from (I believe) the post office that ultimately created British telecom
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,322
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain" the customers have to pay more?
    If the government triggers a default in Thames Water bonds, and we are very close to that, we will all pay more because the implicit guarantee or back up to these bonds will have gone and no utility or University or quasi public institution would be able to borrow at the current rates.

    That might be a necessary step, it is not clear what the UK taxpayer or the customers have got out of this ability to borrow cheap (unlike the shareholders) but it is a big step and I have no doubt that there are some deeply unpleasant models in the Treasury explaining the implications.
    Will we ?
    9.75% already implies just that.

    The reality of the water companies us that they've been plundered by largely overseas share - and bond - holders for years, at the cost of capital investment.

    Either customers, or government, or both will have to fund the recapitalisation of the weakest. There's no reason that we should pay more to rebuild the value of the otherwise worthless shares and bonds.
    And if we do that, the regulator will award those shareholders a "reasonable return" in perpetuity on the capital that we have paid to rebuild.
    The model was deeply flawed from the beginning. It allowed the utilities to have a return on relevant assets at a level fixed by the regulator. For a long period after 2008 this was substantially higher than the gilt rate allowing companies to pile up debt in the certain assurance that they would make an additional return (profit) on the deal. Very nice for the shareholders, not great for the rest of us.

    Now that interest rates are at more normal rates the utilities whine and claim they need a higher return, that is larger bills for the customers, to finance the cost of the borrowing they took on when it was a no brainer and guaranteed profit. It was utterly predictable that this would happen at some point and any regulator with half a brain would have sought to restrict borrowing, even if that required additional powers. But we had OFWAT instead. And they are not alone.
    Not infrequently the lenders were connected parties to the shareholders, I think ?
    Macquarie is one that probably played that game.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,180
    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,778
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain" the customers have to pay more?
    If the government triggers a default in Thames Water bonds, and we are very close to that, we will all pay more because the implicit guarantee or back up to these bonds will have gone and no utility or University or quasi public institution would be able to borrow at the current rates.

    That might be a necessary step, it is not clear what the UK taxpayer or the customers have got out of this ability to borrow cheap (unlike the shareholders) but it is a big step and I have no doubt that there are some deeply unpleasant models in the Treasury explaining the implications.
    I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. Let them go bankrupt, let the bond holders take a big haircut and allow the markets to enforce discipline on utility companies. If these companies aren't viable in private ownership structures then so be it but I think they probably will be but the lenders will put a stop to the huge dividend payments and force more money to be spent on infrastructure upgrades which will allow for capital growth.

    The taxpayer can't stand behind these irresponsible companies and lenders. They all need to learn their lessons.
    I agree. I am just pointing out that it is not a cost free option and that is why the government has not acted already. There will be consequences and they will not be all good. It is yet another consequence of running an economy on never ending mountains of debt. One day we will have to try paying for what we want.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,935
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The implication of the 'deal' Trump seems to be negotiating are that it's quite likely Russia will be in a position to renew its invasion in a couple of years time - with the US completely disengaged militarily.

    We are yet to see anything conceded by Moscow. But trump has demanded that Zelenskyy prepare to concede territory, give away Ukraine natural resources and he's offering to lift sanctions on russia.

    A master deal maker who gives away the farm before negations even begin...

    https://x.com/JackRyanlives/status/1901790847672238531

    Any European politician who doesn't see that as a genuine risk is a fool.

    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    Peter Zeihan has made a very interesting account of the various layers of pro-Russian influencers within the US. Starting with the "Useful Idiot" category (Marjorie Taylor Greene, for instance) right up to people who are actively, and knowingly, doing Putin's business.

    It should be said that he is the very opposite of a conspiracy-monger. But has been led, ineluctably, to the conclusion that the USA is currently engaged in a process of destroying its own ability to secure it own interests.

    The vid can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgoNFd2LC0
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    More likely someone copied the first thing they found online.
    One of the reasons for the success of New Labour was their press operation. They realised that most hacks are lazy - so they fed pre-written stories to match their messaging grid.

    In the age of “AI” how many of those pieces are written by asking ChatGPT?
    Although I just went to a breakfast meeting with Fraser Nelson who is doing some seriously impressive work

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,285
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain" the customers have to pay more?
    If the government triggers a default in Thames Water bonds, and we are very close to that, we will all pay more because the implicit guarantee or back up to these bonds will have gone and no utility or University or quasi public institution would be able to borrow at the current rates.

    That might be a necessary step, it is not clear what the UK taxpayer or the customers have got out of this ability to borrow cheap (unlike the shareholders) but it is a big step and I have no doubt that there are some deeply unpleasant models in the Treasury explaining the implications.
    Will we ?
    9.75% already implies just that.

    The reality of the water companies us that they've been plundered by largely overseas share - and bond - holders for years, at the cost of capital investment.

    Either customers, or government, or both will have to fund the recapitalisation of the weakest. There's no reason that we should pay more to rebuild the value of the otherwise worthless shares and bonds.
    And if we do that, the regulator will award those shareholders a "reasonable return" in perpetuity on the capital that we have paid to rebuild.
    The model was deeply flawed from the beginning. It allowed the utilities to have a return on relevant assets at a level fixed by the regulator. For a long period after 2008 this was substantially higher than the gilt rate allowing companies to pile up debt in the certain assurance that they would make an additional return (profit) on the deal. Very nice for the shareholders, not great for the rest of us.

    Now that interest rates are at more normal rates the utilities whine and claim they need a higher return, that is larger bills for the customers, to finance the cost of the borrowing they took on when it was a no brainer and guaranteed profit. It was utterly predictable that this would happen at some point and any regulator with half a brain would have sought to restrict borrowing, even if that required additional powers. But we had OFWAT instead. And they are not alone.
    Has there ever been a case where the 'debt is wealth' mentality not led to long term financial problems ?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,138
    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    Probably it's not just you. The BBC have taken a nose dive in the last year or so and they're now scared of their own shadow. A real shame because they're leaving a huge hole which is being filled with crap
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,807

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The implication of the 'deal' Trump seems to be negotiating are that it's quite likely Russia will be in a position to renew its invasion in a couple of years time - with the US completely disengaged militarily.

    We are yet to see anything conceded by Moscow. But trump has demanded that Zelenskyy prepare to concede territory, give away Ukraine natural resources and he's offering to lift sanctions on russia.

    A master deal maker who gives away the farm before negations even begin...

    https://x.com/JackRyanlives/status/1901790847672238531

    Any European politician who doesn't see that as a genuine risk is a fool.

    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    Peter Zeihan has made a very interesting account of the various layers of pro-Russian influencers within the US. Starting with the "Useful Idiot" category (Marjorie Taylor Greene, for instance) right up to people who are actively, and knowingly, doing Putin's business.

    It should be said that he is the very opposite of a conspiracy-monger. But has been led, ineluctably, to the conclusion that the USA is currently engaged in a process of destroying its own ability to secure it own interests.

    The vid can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgoNFd2LC0
    I see your video link and raise you his complete playlist (latest first)

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUsy9I56PY3IngCf_VGjunMQ

    I'm listening to it right now.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,935
    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,240
    ...

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The implication of the 'deal' Trump seems to be negotiating are that it's quite likely Russia will be in a position to renew its invasion in a couple of years time - with the US completely disengaged militarily.

    We are yet to see anything conceded by Moscow. But trump has demanded that Zelenskyy prepare to concede territory, give away Ukraine natural resources and he's offering to lift sanctions on russia.

    A master deal maker who gives away the farm before negations even begin...

    https://x.com/JackRyanlives/status/1901790847672238531

    Any European politician who doesn't see that as a genuine risk is a fool.

    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    Peter Zeihan has made a very interesting account of the various layers of pro-Russian influencers within the US. Starting with the "Useful Idiot" category (Marjorie Taylor Greene, for instance) right up to people who are actively, and knowingly, doing Putin's business.

    It should be said that he is the very opposite of a conspiracy-monger. But has been led, ineluctably, to the conclusion that the USA is currently engaged in a process of destroying its own ability to secure it own interests.

    The vid can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgoNFd2LC0
    He could be right, but isn't what we're seeing actually just a process of the US turning away from a policy of American world dominance and toward a policy of America withdrawing behind a wall of steel and perhaps just dominating its region? Trump may be an extreme example of that, but policy was already heading that way under Biden.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,380
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain" the customers have to pay more?
    If the government triggers a default in Thames Water bonds, and we are very close to that, we will all pay more because the implicit guarantee or back up to these bonds will have gone and no utility or University or quasi public institution would be able to borrow at the current rates.

    That might be a necessary step, it is not clear what the UK taxpayer or the customers have got out of this ability to borrow cheap (unlike the shareholders) but it is a big step and I have no doubt that there are some deeply unpleasant models in the Treasury explaining the implications.
    I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. Let them go bankrupt, let the bond holders take a big haircut and allow the markets to enforce discipline on utility companies. If these companies aren't viable in private ownership structures then so be it but I think they probably will be but the lenders will put a stop to the huge dividend payments and force more money to be spent on infrastructure upgrades which will allow for capital growth.

    The taxpayer can't stand behind these irresponsible companies and lenders. They all need to learn their lessons.
    I agree. I am just pointing out that it is not a cost free option and that is why the government has not acted already. There will be consequences and they will not be all good. It is yet another consequence of running an economy on never ending mountains of debt. One day we will have to try paying for what we want.
    It's a point though. Any private sector entity enjoying an implicit government guarantee of debts should be paying for that. If they aren't it's a freebie from taxpayers to shareholders.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797



    An awful lot of Ukrainians have given up their normal lives to go and fight - and die. Would we have done the same?

    Context: if the UK had been part of France by force for a century or more, and 3-4 million had been starved to death in living memory, followed by independence, and the South-East occupied since 2014, and a police state imposed with killings, thousands of forced convictions into the French Army, and 10s of thousands of children stolen to be brought up as French, then I think many would give up their normal lives, yes.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,138
    edited 10:04AM
    Another day another Israeli atrocity. The sooner Netanyahu is delivered to the Hague the better for all of us

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,322
    edited 10:03AM
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain" the customers have to pay more?
    If the government triggers a default in Thames Water bonds, and we are very close to that, we will all pay more because the implicit guarantee or back up to these bonds will have gone and no utility or University or quasi public institution would be able to borrow at the current rates.

    That might be a necessary step, it is not clear what the UK taxpayer or the customers have got out of this ability to borrow cheap (unlike the shareholders) but it is a big step and I have no doubt that there are some deeply unpleasant models in the Treasury explaining the implications.
    I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. Let them go bankrupt, let the bond holders take a big haircut and allow the markets to enforce discipline on utility companies. If these companies aren't viable in private ownership structures then so be it but I think they probably will be but the lenders will put a stop to the huge dividend payments and force more money to be spent on infrastructure upgrades which will allow for capital growth.

    The taxpayer can't stand behind these irresponsible companies and lenders. They all need to learn their lessons.
    I agree. I am just pointing out that it is not a cost free option and that is why the government has not acted already. There will be consequences and they will not be all good. It is yet another consequence of running an economy on never ending mountains of debt. One day we will have to try paying for what we want.
    All options are costly - but some are more costly than others. Original privatisation was sold as a win/win for all parties. Delusional then; delusional now.

    I suspect the reason the government aren't acting is that they don't fully grasp the issues, and outside advice they are getting is likely to be sympathetic to City rather than government interests.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,999

    My late mother, who would be in her late 80s, grew up in WWII and the period of conscription afterwards. As a result, she was very opposed to conscription. Whenever the geopolitical situation looked bad, she’d worry that I would be conscripted. Even when I was in my late forties, with various joint injuries, and clearly of no use to any fighting force, she’d worry about this. But maybe there are fewer of that generation left and the over-65s are dominated by those who don’t remember the war, but grew up on romanticised images of it?

    My Dad was a regular in the REME in the 1950s. He always said the national service boys just got in the way and largely did more harm than good.

  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 572
    kjh said:

    eek said:

    Battlebus said:

    Off Topic.

    Can we have another discussion on mobile phone and internet masts. PB seems to be ahead of the curve on where these masts should be placed.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cx2ge0ejg08o

    WTAF put the cabinet on the road side of the pavement

    Then I saw it was Kingston Telecom (as Hull always had its own telecom company for “reasons”) and it makes perfect sense they are utter idiots
    I'm a big fan of Kingston Telecom. They were customers of mine (decades ago) and accidentally paid me over £80,000. It was my birthday as well. Sadly I owned up and paid it back. A normal invoice from me would have been under £1000.
    I had Misrad HaBitahon do that. Paid the same (small) bill twice. Weren't in a hurry to get it back but they do seem to be well financed these days given the amounts they are burning through.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797
    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    rkrkrk said:

    A really stark line between Gen X and Baby boomers. I'd imagine those 40+ wouldn't be conscripted either...
    I wonder if the real dividing line is being retired?

    Once you're retired you have a bit more time to worry about the state of the world, and perhaps a bit more fearful of losing what you've got?

    And it's the inverse for something like climate change.
    Lest we forget, it's not that long ago the the British Prime Blooming Minister thought that reintroducing National Service was a pretty neat idea.

    And on the climate change issue, Kemi B has given up (fighting Reform);

    Kemi Badenoch has said it is "impossible" for the UK to meet its net zero target by 2050 - a goal set by a previous Conservative government...

    The Conservative leader did not set out a replacement for the target, but her words mark a sharp break from years of political consensus.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly3pnjyzp4o
    Was not Nation Service Rishi in his headless chicken mode? Do we take things seriously said by non-serious politicians?

    And Kemi is ... Kemi. Does she present any evidence that this is impossible? We seem still to be on track.
    I think she means it is "impossible" to support it and remain Tory leader.
    Having read the piece, I think she means "it is impossible", which is what she says. That may indeed be something she feels she has to say to remain Tory leader :wink: .

    More pertinently, perhaps she does believe it is impossible, or doesn't believe it and is dog whistling Reform on a slightly different frequency.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,180

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The money has to come from somewhere

    If you drove it into administration you wipe out the equity holders (pension funds) but they have mainly written off their investments anyway. And the funding then comes from tax payers.

    Ultimately all funding for utilities comes from customers or taxpayers. There is no other source.
    If Thames went bankrupt, the removal of the debt burden would mean that the company would be making more money than it is spending.

    Profits, they used to call them. Provided they are stopped from re-financialisation…
    The operating company is already profitable. That won’t change

    The debt comes from pension funds investors. Yes you can wipe them out (and they have already written down the loans to market)

    This new debt is being used to refinance some of the loans (at an haircut) and provide working capital. It is not being paid out to equity providers.

    Let’s put it like this (ignoring solvency law for simplicity).

    Operating company is worth 100
    Current debt is 200
    Equity is -100

    No new investor will buy the shares - even if they buy for zero they immediately have a loss.

    So you borrow 90 to payback the debt at 45% of face value. The debt investors accept that because (a) they get some of their money back; (b) they get a higher interest rate; and (c) they get an equity participation to make back some of their losses of things go well.

    The new capital structure is therefore:

    Operating company: 100
    Debt: 90
    Equity: 10

    The new investors then pay 10 for the equity, of which 5 goes to the current investors (they need some incentive to accept the deal vs bankruptcy) and 5 goes to the current debt holders who are losing money. The current debt holders piece is as equity, the current equity investors is in cash.

    That’s the way it should be: equity holders largely wiped out; debt holders take a big haircut; the company recapitalised and operations continue unaffected.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,380
    Roger said:

    Another day another Israeli atrocity. The sooner Netanyahu is delivered to the Hague the better for all of us

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

    There'll be lots more and not just in Gaza. He has carte blanche with Trump in the WH.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
    You could say the same about every
    infrastructure project. It's how a nation state works.
    And the issue is always politicians underinvest in infrastructure because there aren’t as many votes in it as in nurse’s wages
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,855
    Roger said:

    Another day another Israeli atrocity. The sooner Netanyahu is delivered to the Hague the better for all of us

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

    There’s no chance of that . With Trump in the WH Netenyahu has a free pass to do whatever he likes , he could wipe out another 50,000 Palestinians and Trump would be quite happy .
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,852

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
    You could say the same about every
    infrastructure project. It's how a nation state works.
    And the issue is always politicians underinvest in infrastructure because there aren’t as many votes in it as in nurse’s wages
    Yet there have been a string of super-expensive infrastructure projects, and nurses remain poorly paid
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,807

    ...

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    The implication of the 'deal' Trump seems to be negotiating are that it's quite likely Russia will be in a position to renew its invasion in a couple of years time - with the US completely disengaged militarily.

    We are yet to see anything conceded by Moscow. But trump has demanded that Zelenskyy prepare to concede territory, give away Ukraine natural resources and he's offering to lift sanctions on russia.

    A master deal maker who gives away the farm before negations even begin...

    https://x.com/JackRyanlives/status/1901790847672238531

    Any European politician who doesn't see that as a genuine risk is a fool.

    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    The Americans are on the side of the Russians and fighting against the Ukranians
    Peter Zeihan has made a very interesting account of the various layers of pro-Russian influencers within the US. Starting with the "Useful Idiot" category (Marjorie Taylor Greene, for instance) right up to people who are actively, and knowingly, doing Putin's business.

    It should be said that he is the very opposite of a conspiracy-monger. But has been led, ineluctably, to the conclusion that the USA is currently engaged in a process of destroying its own ability to secure it own interests.

    The vid can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgoNFd2LC0
    He could be right, but isn't what we're seeing actually just a process of the US turning away from a policy of American world dominance and toward a policy of America withdrawing behind a wall of steel and perhaps just dominating its region? Trump may be an extreme example of that, but policy was already heading that way under Biden.
    Yes and no. Yes it is doing that, but it's doing other things as well
    • The geopolitical shift (Trump's playbook). It is, as you said, resiling from world hegemony (and dynamiting the West in the process), which results in Ukraine being handed to the Russians and Europe having to defend itself
    • The dictatorial shift (Yarvin's playbook). Gut the organs of state, replace them with incompetent yes-men, ignore the courts. This causes problems which haven't been internalised: for example if NOAA is gutted, where does the armed forces get its weather reports? Starlink? Oh...
    So yes you are right, but there is more going on than that
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22
    times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    Career success to a tea
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,996
    Roger said:

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    Probably it's not just you. The BBC have taken a nose dive in the last year or so and they're now scared of their own shadow. A real shame because they're leaving a huge hole which is being filled with crap
    Still at the forefront of Royal Family pr though.

    The death of the last BoB pilot (who was Irish btw) and hourly bulletins on the Princess of Wales Guinness drinking activities pretty much a perfect news day for the BBC.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,280
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
    You could say the same about every
    infrastructure project. It's how a nation state works.
    And the issue is always politicians underinvest in infrastructure because there aren’t as many votes in it as in nurse’s wages

    Yet there have been a string of super-expensive infrastructure projects, and nurses remain poorly paid
    Sexy infrastructure projects like train sets and hospitals. Not boring things like pipes and sewers.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,351

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22
    times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    Career success to a tea
    He obviously hit the army like a typhoo-n
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,807

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    More likely someone copied the first thing they found online.
    One of the reasons for the success of New Labour was their press operation. They realised that most hacks are lazy - so they fed pre-written stories to match their messaging grid.

    In the age of “AI” how many of those pieces are written by asking ChatGPT?
    Although I just went to a breakfast meeting with Fraser Nelson who is doing some seriously impressive work

    Details plz? Even a summary would be nice. You can PM me for privacy reasons if you like.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,993
    edited 10:16AM
    Uruguayans are noisy
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,375

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22
    times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    Career success to a tea
    He obviously hit the army like a typhoo-n
    Very good. But not even a courtesy like?!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    More likely someone copied the first thing they found online.
    One of the reasons for the success of New Labour was their press operation. They realised that most hacks are lazy - so they fed pre-written stories to match their messaging grid.

    In the age of “AI” how many of those pieces are written by asking ChatGPT?
    Although I just went to a breakfast meeting with Fraser Nelson who is doing some seriously impressive work

    What is he doing now?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,351

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22
    times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    Career success to a tea
    He obviously hit the army like a typhoo-n
    Very good. But not even a courtesy like?!
    Apologies, I retrocredited,
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,380
    Leon said:

    Uruguayans are noisy

    Don't let them tempt you into a bad tackle.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,797
    edited 10:27AM
    DavidL said:

    The OECD have made some new forecasts (stop laughing at the back)
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/trump-tariffs-rock-global-economy-gloomy-outlook-for-carney-s-canada-as-mexico-heads-into-recession/ar-AA1B720S?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=bcf1699f87824c3baa8f1e45cac5a230&ei=14

    Trump's tariffs are enough to put Mexico into recession and cut growth pretty much everywhere, including the United States. What a genius.

    Slightly weirdly, the UK is forecast to have the third highest growth of the countries listed but Reeves is on the job. FWIW I think that many of these forecasts are on the optimistic side, including ours.

    Funny how Reeves is to blame when there are rubbish numbers for the UK, but suddenly powerless when the UK is doing better (relatively).

    The fact is Chancellors have very little influence over short term economic conditions. Even something drastic like Brexit is difficult to isolate and quantify. The near immaterial changes that Reeves has made - even employer NICs wasn't particularly big - are very unlikely to be picked up in GDP numbers.

    Better to judge them on the long term policies they have put in place. That's why the cancellation of HS2 is the one thing I'm genuinely pissed off about Sunak. The lack of reform on things like Council Tax, Stamp Duty, Fuel Duty, regional capital investment, social care, energy markets etc etc is what is starting to annoy me about this government.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,537
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
    You could say the same about every
    infrastructure project. It's how a nation state works.
    And the issue is always politicians underinvest in infrastructure because there aren’t as many votes in it as in nurse’s wages
    Yet there have been a string of super-expensive infrastructure projects, and nurses remain poorly paid
    Remember - we have politicians who managed to lose public money investing in property. In a market with nailed on double digit gains per year….
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797
    edited 10:28AM

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    Does the UK have a practice of promotion at or just before retirement?

    I think I recall that the US Navy makes (or made in recentish historical periods) a lot of people into Small Admirals just before the out-chucking ceremony.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,935
    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    Does the UK have a practice of promotion at or just before retirement?

    I think I recall that the US Navy makes (or made in recentish historical periods) a lot of people into Small Admirals just before the out-chucking ceremony.
    Used to be, maybe still is, a regular occurrence in the public sector with implications for final-salary linked pensions. Used as an (expensive) way of easing out people long after their useful sell-by date.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797
    edited 10:39AM

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    To add an account - and I suspect this may be a not-uncommon experience in Ukraine given the brutality (eg Russian constant use of chemical weapons) - one of my Grandfather's brothers came back from WW1 in shellshock, and later killed himself.

    Another impact may be domestic violence, which flows down generations in families as each new cohort learn that it is 'normal'. According to my grandmother, that applied to my Grandfather (died in the 1960s).

    When human beings are exposed to brutality, it comes out at the other end ... somehow.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,180

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    OF-3 and above can use their rank titles after retirement if they've got 15 years in. Apart from cavalry regiments who have their own mad rules that nobody understands but involves horses.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,489

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
    You could say the same about every
    infrastructure project. It's how a nation state works.
    And the issue is always politicians underinvest in infrastructure because there aren’t as many votes in it as in nurse’s wages

    Yet there have been a string of super-expensive infrastructure projects, and nurses remain poorly paid
    Sexy infrastructure projects like train sets and hospitals. Not boring things like pipes and sewers.
    Where I live is now almost permanently dug up due to long overdue sewer and gas pipe replacement. At one time we also had a steady stream of white tankers full of sh*t driving up and down the high street 24/7
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,280
    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    Does the UK have a practice of promotion at or just before retirement?

    I think I recall that the US Navy makes (or made in recentish historical periods) a lot of people into Small Admirals just before the out-chucking ceremony.
    Not as far as I know; AFAIK he was under-age, from a minor public school in WWI, so 'eligible' for promotion..... and lucky to survive. In WWII he was initially told 'too old' but was accepted in the Pioneer Corp and then quickly promoted.

    My post was regraded upwards in the NHS about six months before I retired, which recovered the money I'd lost by being unable to do on-call duties any more; we'd moved out of reasonable travelling distance.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,416

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Thames Water data reveals raw sewage discharges in rivers rose 50% in 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/18/thames-water-data-reveals-raw-sewage-discharges-rivers-2024

    We were told last year that it would be a mistake to drive Thames into administration, as it would push up the cost of borrowing for the industry.

    Yesterday Thames was allowed to borrow another £3bn at an interest rate of 9.75%.
    To be funded by customers, of course.

    The whole thing stinks. The Government should be providing capital in exchange for equity, not this socialised losses nonsense.
    The company is worth about zilch - but are desperate to not end up nationalized

    Equally the Government doesn’t want them nationalized as it opens a whole world of hassle and pain.

    Hence giving that very expensive loan to keep the can going down the road a bit longer
    So because the Government doesn't want to do their jobs, i.e. the "hassle and pain"
    the customers have to pay more?
    Why should you (in the NE I believe) pay more tax so I can have cheaper water?
    You could say the same about every
    infrastructure project. It's how a nation state works.
    And the issue is always politicians underinvest in infrastructure because there aren’t as many votes in it as in nurse’s wages
    Yet there have been a string of super-expensive infrastructure projects, and nurses remain poorly paid
    Remember - we have politicians who managed to lose public money investing in property. In a market with nailed on double digit gains per year….
    If you want to find the greatest fool for your property project you look at your average council to fund the project.

    There are plenty of examples - Middlesbrough is full of them
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,280
    edited 10:40AM
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    OF-3 and above can use their rank titles after retirement if they've got 15 years in. Apart from cavalry regiments who have their own mad rules that nobody understands but involves horses.
    Captain Tom Moore seems to have started using his WWII rank long after he left the Army. However, I suspect other people might have been involved.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,180
    MattW said:



    Does the UK have a practice of promotion at or just before retirement?

    Yes, until recently. It was primarily used as a pension bumping bribe to get people out with no fuss.

    I got promoted to Commander on my very last day of service to get rid of me because they were concerned that I was going to top myself on MoD property which would have caused a great deal of unwelcome and tiresome paperwork.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,369
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Lot of young women staring at me in Sao paolo terminal 3. But then this is Brazil, isn’t it? women are so liberated sexually they feel able to express their lust. Quite openly

    I’m used to be being ogled but this is a new league

    You are not used to being ogled. You are an old git and no one younger than you thinks of you as anything other than an old git who might be friends with, or perhaps reminds them of their father.

    Always remember that.
    Dara O'Brian did a bit at a gig I went to where he described going out after a show with some students, then back to theirs for a party. He suddenly realised that not a single one of them saw him as potential sexual partner - he was simply someone of their parents generation who they were having a laugh with. Apparently it was a big moment for him.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,489

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    Does the UK have a practice of promotion at or just before retirement?

    I think I recall that the US Navy makes (or made in recentish historical periods) a lot of people into Small Admirals just before the out-chucking ceremony.
    Not as far as I know; AFAIK he was under-age, from a minor public school in WWI, so 'eligible' for promotion..... and lucky to survive. In WWII he was initially told 'too old' but was accepted in the Pioneer Corp and then quickly promoted.

    My post was regraded upwards in the NHS about six months before I retired, which recovered the money I'd lost by being unable to do on-call duties any more; we'd moved out of reasonable travelling distance.
    This apparently used to be common in the Civil Service, as was making the final year's bonus consolidated (and therefore pensionable). I believe this is one of the reasons they moved to a Career Average Revalued scheme
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,180

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    OF-3 and above can use their rank titles after retirement if they've got 15 years in. Apart from cavalry regiments who have their own mad rules that nobody understands but involves horses.
    Captain Tom Moore seems to have started using his WWII rank long after he left the Army. However, I suspect other people might have been involved.
    Probably the daughter's idea!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,726
    steve richards
    @steverichards14
    ·
    2h
    A former member of OBR committee quoted in the Guardian sums up the government’s chosen contortion:
    “We’ve got ourselves into a, frankly, pretty ridiculous position, where we’re doing fiscal fine-tuning to control the OBR forecast five years ahead.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/1901915865647374729
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,369
    Roger said:

    Another day another Israeli atrocity. The sooner Netanyahu is delivered to the Hague the better for all of us

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

    Awful as it is, its also pretty grim that there are still hostages being held and bodies not returned.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,005
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    OF-3 and above can use their rank titles after retirement if they've got 15 years in. Apart from cavalry regiments who have their own mad rules that nobody understands but involves horses.
    Captain Tom Moore seems to have started using his WWII rank long after he left the Army. However, I suspect other people might have been involved.
    Probably the daughter's idea!
    Talking of whom.


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,726
    boulay said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    OF-3 and above can use their rank titles after retirement if they've got 15 years in. Apart from cavalry regiments who have their own mad rules that nobody understands but involves horses.
    Captain Tom Moore seems to have started using his WWII rank long after he left the Army. However, I suspect other people might have been involved.
    Probably the daughter's idea!
    Talking of whom.


    Is that Trump's new Federal Reserve chairwoman?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,681
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    Eisenhower's meteoric rise (one-minute video):-
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/En5IsrX_Mk8
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,369

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    OF-3 and above can use their rank titles after retirement if they've got 15 years in. Apart from cavalry regiments who have their own mad rules that nobody understands but involves horses.
    Captain Tom Moore seems to have started using his WWII rank long after he left the Army. However, I suspect other people might have been involved.
    I think in his case it was ok as it was rather a long time ago and he was now very old. The idea of Captain Hastings (in Poirot) using the title Captain in everyday life was rather odd.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,369

    boulay said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    One of my uncles went from 'the ranks' to commissioned officer in both World Wars. Fought in France in WWi and East & North Africa in WWII. Described on his tombstone as 'Major', although he'd long since left the Army.
    OF-3 and above can use their rank titles after retirement if they've got 15 years in. Apart from cavalry regiments who have their own mad rules that nobody understands but involves horses.
    Captain Tom Moore seems to have started using his WWII rank long after he left the Army. However, I suspect other people might have been involved.
    Probably the daughter's idea!
    Talking of whom.


    Is that Trump's new Federal Reserve chairwoman?
    I thought Leon was posting pictures of the women staring at his flaccid undercarriage.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,681
    AI-powered Bing has just told me that...



    A role he held for all of two months under Boris.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797
    edited 11:00AM
    Given that we are on Brazil, is anyone familiar with the extent to which they are following a Trumpist agenda?

    Given the religion stats, extreme inequality, a Christendom worldview etc, it is likely to be fertile ground for such.

    I know the religion stats, where in the 1970s it was 91% RC: 5% Evangelical, and is now 51% RC: 31% Evangelical. "Nominal agnostic / atheist" in the census is ~5% only. Therefore a Christendom type framing of society's view of itself is likely.

    From a report in the Graun, there are attempts to "do a USA-Right" (but more so) around abortion, aiming to criminalise abortion after rape. AFAIK in the USA one way it is done is by effectively banning abortion, and not putting in a rape-exception (eg Missouri up until the recent ballot initiative).

    Brazil has recorded unprecedented levels of rape and other forms of gender-based violence for the second year running, amid growing concerns over rightwing efforts to criminalize rape victims who have an abortion.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/18/violence-against-women-in-brazil-reaches-highest-levels-on-record
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,322
    Some context around the Online Safety Bill and Leon's many bans ?

    There is something deeply wrong when a law passed with cross-party consensus and endorsed by Britain's most trusted charities has made it impossible to run an internet forum for hamster owners.
    https://x.com/Sam_Dumitriu/status/1901948965412630655
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,351

    Roger said:

    Another day another Israeli atrocity. The sooner Netanyahu is delivered to the Hague the better for all of us

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

    Awful as it is, its also pretty grim that there are still hostages being held and bodies not returned.
    I know, hostages on both sides.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797
    edited 11:12AM

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Conscription ended in 1960 , with National Service ending in 1963. That is, 65 and 62 years ago.

    The Silent Generation were subject to it; the boomers had people around them subject to it when they were young. I'm Gen X, but I had adults around me who had been conscripted when I was growing up (eg to Malaya).

    I think the question is a bit of a media-created red herring in that even the armed forces don't like it - they lose more from looking after them for short term conscription than any gain. So if we get to a situwation where it is necessary, it will be necessary.

    It will be major expansion of reserves first.

    The vast majority of the silent generation wouldn't have done National Service either.

    Wikipedia may not be accurate, but it suggests it was phased out in 1957, except for people who were born before 1939 and had deferred. That makes it 85/86+ men, and even if it was all of them, that's only going to be (very approximately) 10% of the over 75s.
    My father was one of the last do it. He was in the RAF Education Branch in Aden and, like all of his other interactions with the working class, hated it. The did hand out promotions like crab ointment in the Education Branch though. He made it to Flt. Lt. in 18 months which isn't quite Mordaunt pace but still impressive.

    It's hard to see how conscription fits into a 21st century Western fighting force though. It makes a sort of sense of for SMO-style semi-mechanised trench based carnage. For high tech maneuvering/airborne warfare they could backfill a few blanket stacker jobs but that's about it.
    Wars will tend to accelerate progress up the ranks. Enoch Powell famously went from Private to Brigadier during WW2.

    (I imagine he would be feeling quite vindicated by his US-scepticism if he were still around.)
    Gen. Nathan Twining was promoted 22 times from 1916 to 1953. He went from being a Private in the Oregon Nation Guard to a USAF 4 Star and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    Eisenhower's meteoric rise (one-minute video):-
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/En5IsrX_Mk8
    Churchill collected campaign medals like a magpie. Mark Felton calls it "a touch of the Hermann Goerings".

    (Not to devalue his actual service).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1VCnnCQP3E

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,322
    Nigelb said:

    Some context around the Online Safety Bill and Leon's many bans ?

    There is something deeply wrong when a law passed with cross-party consensus and endorsed by Britain's most trusted charities has made it impossible to run an internet forum for hamster owners.
    https://x.com/Sam_Dumitriu/status/1901948965412630655

    I've always opposed the Online Safety Act, but I never realised just how mad it was.

    Every site that allows users to post content is in scope of the law and is forced to carry out a risk assessment.

    If the PM wants to cut the cost of regulation, here's an easy place to start.

    https://x.com/Sam_Dumitriu/status/1901946351333634314
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,138
    edited 11:14AM
    nico67 said:

    Roger said:

    Another day another Israeli atrocity. The sooner Netanyahu is delivered to the Hague the better for all of us

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

    There’s no chance of that . With Trump in the WH Netenyahu has a free pass to do whatever he likes , he could wipe out another 50,000 Palestinians and Trump would be quite happy .
    The Gazan's need an effective PR company now the US has gone rogue. Some memes that point out that gratuitously killing 300- nearly all women and children -isn't only unacceptable but grotesque.

    The Israelis were quick off the mark with 'The Biggest Massacre Since the Holocaust'. The Gazans can trump that several times over. Something that will penetrate the sensibilities of the West and the Americans. It really wont be difficult. A 72 sheet poster on Broadway and another in Cambridge Circus would be a good start
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,726

    ‪Ruth Deyermond‬ ‪@ruthdeyermond.bsky.social‬
    ·
    4m
    Today's Putin-Trump conversation will be about Russia-US relations and what they each think they can extort from Kyiv, not peace in Ukraine. That can only come with an end to Russian aggression.

    https://bsky.app/profile/ruthdeyermond.bsky.social/post/3lknjkpbftk2p
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,177
    MattW said:

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    I don't think it's Trumpy disinformation - I think it's laziness or the writer being spread too thin. Was it perhaps written by an intern, or AI, and the author topped and tailed it?

    It's Frank Gardner who is a 30 year BBC veteran, so should be better.

    It also has things like:

    Let's start with the numbers. According to the Kiel Institute, which meticulously tracks these things, Europe spends just 0.1% of its wealth on helping to defend Ukraine, while the US has been spending 0.15%.

    There's the change over time not accounted for, the confusion between "wealth" and "GDP" ie stock vs flow, and no clarity on the period meant for "spends just 0.1% etc" ie is it 0.1% per annum or 0.1% of one year's GDP over 3+ years.

    The latter has been used as a unit by the media, so it needs to be clarified.

    Really, this is just quality journalism not being applied.
    You're probably right, but it ties in with Trump's claim that the US has given more to Ukraine than Europe has, which just isn't true.

    And the BBC is giving a lot of time to American Trump backers, , and is quite hesitant about being critical, in a way that it isn't with other similar foreign leaders (eg Orban).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,797
    edited 11:17AM
    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    I don't think it's Trumpy disinformation - I think it's laziness or the writer being spread too thin. Was it perhaps written by an intern, or AI, and the author topped and tailed it?

    It's Frank Gardner who is a 30 year BBC veteran, so should be better.

    It also has things like:

    Let's start with the numbers. According to the Kiel Institute, which meticulously tracks these things, Europe spends just 0.1% of its wealth on helping to defend Ukraine, while the US has been spending 0.15%.

    There's the change over time not accounted for, the confusion between "wealth" and "GDP" ie stock vs flow, and no clarity on the period meant for "spends just 0.1% etc" ie is it 0.1% per annum or 0.1% of one year's GDP over 3+ years.

    The latter has been used as a unit by the media, so it needs to be clarified.

    Really, this is just quality journalism not being applied.
    You're probably right, but it ties in with Trump's claim that the US has given more to Ukraine than Europe has, which just isn't true.

    And the BBC is giving a lot of time to American Trump backers, , and is quite hesitant about being critical, in a way that it isn't with other similar foreign leaders (eg Orban).
    Yes - Trump is a congenital liar, who only engages with the voices in his head. Or the voices outside his head from the MAGA Mushrooms, who only repeat what he has told them.

    The Trumpologists who seem to climb furthest up my nose are the ones from Republicans Abroad (or whatever it is called now).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,041
    edited 11:21AM

    kamski said:


    BTW this BBC article is misleading as it has a chart showing the US giving a greater share of GDP to Ukraine than many European countries. But it separates the EU aid from the direct bilateral aid. If you include eg the German share of EU aid to Ukraine, it has given a greater share of GDP than the US.

    And that's before you consider the price tag of the US military aid to Ukraine, a large proportion of which was getting rid of old stockpiles.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg102564g2o

    Is it just me, or is the BBC tending towards repeating Trumpy disinformation these days?

    More likely someone copied the first thing they found online.
    One of the reasons for the success of New Labour was their press operation. They realised that most hacks are lazy - so they fed pre-written stories to match their messaging grid.

    In the age of “AI” how many of those pieces are written by asking ChatGPT?
    Although I just went to a breakfast meeting with Fraser Nelson who is doing some seriously impressive work

    If you remember back he was I think the first in the media to identify that there were somewhere between 8-10 million economically inactive. At the time, following his piece in the Spectator, he was told that he got his sums wrong, it can't be that anywhere near that many. He had made some assumptions that in some areas might have overstated things, but over areas it understated things and it turns out it was probably about right. The fact nobody actually knows the real figure also quite telling.

    I wonder how much of the debate being had today has been influenced by the fact that the giant numbers that have come from his bean counting have become common knowledge.
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