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If voters don't like the cost of increasing defence spending they'll hate the cost of inaction even

SystemSystem Posts: 12,318
edited February 18 in General
If voters don't like the cost of increasing defence spending they'll hate the cost of inaction even more

While Keir Starmer has called on Europe to 'step up' its defence spending, just 30% of Britons would support paying more tax to fund an increase in defence spendingSupport: 30%Oppose: 55%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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Comments

  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    edited February 18
    First, like Musk’s dibs on post sanctions Russian investments.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,088
    First- this is too easy...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,088
    We have for so many years blithely assumed that the Americans would be there. We have become lazy, and happy to run down our armed forces, because there wasn't going to be a need for a conventional army, navy and air force - it was all about terrorism. And yet here we are.
    What we do have is the excellent nucleus of larger forces, if we have the desire and money to do it, we can increase the size of the army, we can buy planes and drones. But as always voters are happy for tax raises on other people.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,088
    TimS said:

    First- this is too easy...

    Or is it?
    I knew that the "-this is too easy" was a risk.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,845
    Leadership. That's what we need on this.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,595

    Leadership. That's what we need on this.

    Indeed.

    But we also need more people calling out the appeasers and literal Russian shills. Their voices are too loud; their lies too persuasive to those who do not go deeply into it.

    As I've said before; friends of my son (ten years old) are getting a certain amount of indoctrination on pro-Russian positions via gaming channels. Which is one reason I don't let him use gaming chat...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619
    Si vis pacem, Donaldus Trump persona non grata est.

    Or something....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,181
    There was an interesting idea in a column in the Times the other day on defence spending.

    A group is trying to get together a new European Bank of Defence which fund investment in increased manufacturing capacity etc. Use fractional reserve banking etc.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,595
    And in an example of what I mean:

    Musky Baby praising Russian leadership:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891597935231590477
  • eekeek Posts: 29,121
    This extra defence spending is coming alongside a spending review which is highlighting how much money is required to fix things that we don’t have the money to fix.

    To say April /June (whenever the spending review is finalized) is going to be painful is an understatement
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,845

    Leadership. That's what we need on this.

    Indeed.

    But we also need more people calling out the appeasers and literal Russian shills. Their voices are too loud; their lies too persuasive to those who do not go deeply into it.

    As I've said before; friends of my son (ten years old) are getting a certain amount of indoctrination on pro-Russian positions via gaming channels. Which is one reason I don't let him use gaming chat...
    Is it any more sophisticated than the desperate shite we get on here on Saturday mornings?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619
    edited February 18
    The problem is the assumption of American support underpins European security. Even if we replace it with all the extra investment, it's a ten year project at best. We probably don't have a choice. We will have to spend a lot more on defence as a continent while depending on what's left of American goodwill in the meantime. It's a desperate situation to be in.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,845
    eek said:

    This extra defence spending is coming alongside a spending review which is highlighting how much money is required to fix things that we don’t have the money to fix.

    To say April /June (whenever the spending review is finalized) is going to be painful is an understatement

    The alternative (loss of our freedom, prosperity and independence) would be far more painful.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,441
    edited February 18
    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,794
    Has JD Vance complained about this yet?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/feb/18/placebo-frontman-brian-molko-charged-with-defaming-italian-prime-minister-giorgia-meloni

    Placebo frontman Brian Molko is being charged with defamation after appearing to call the Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, a “piece of shit, fascist, racist” in Italian while performing at a festival in Turin in 2023.

    ...

    In May, the philosopher Donatella Di Cesare, who was being sued by Meloni’s brother-in-law for comparing one of his speeches to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, claimed that her government was strategically using defamation suits to silence public intellectuals. Meloni’s first year in office recorded the highest number of lawsuits against public participation, according to the European parliament’s civil liberties committee.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,742
    Im sitting in Hamburg watching German TV. Its all full of something must be done about Ukraine but just not by Germany,
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,595

    Leadership. That's what we need on this.

    Indeed.

    But we also need more people calling out the appeasers and literal Russian shills. Their voices are too loud; their lies too persuasive to those who do not go deeply into it.

    As I've said before; friends of my son (ten years old) are getting a certain amount of indoctrination on pro-Russian positions via gaming channels. Which is one reason I don't let him use gaming chat...
    Is it any more sophisticated than the desperate shite we get on here on Saturday mornings?
    I don't know, but the targets are primary school kids, who might not be as sophisticated as us. Well, some of us at least...

    Anti-Semitism is also spread by the same means. Anecdotally, a kid said: "I want Russia to win the war as they'll kill all the Jews" or somesuch.

    The Internet is a swamp. There are islands of goodness in it - they are being eroded all the time - but gaming channels appear to be nothing but swamps. Don't let kids onto them.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,794

    And in an example of what I mean:

    Musky Baby praising Russian leadership:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891597935231590477

    He's a psycho who hates democracy, so of course he admires dictators and war criminals.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,121
    edited February 18

    eek said:

    This extra defence spending is coming alongside a spending review which is highlighting how much money is required to fix things that we don’t have the money to fix.

    To say April /June (whenever the spending review is finalized) is going to be painful is an understatement

    The alternative (loss of our freedom, prosperity and independence) would be far more painful.
    Oh I have zero problem with the spending - it’s just that I suspect we are going to see a very large tax increase pinned on Trump with only part of it going on Defence.

    Thanks to Hunt and Rishi a lot of Goverment spending was due to “disappear” in 2026 onwards and the reality doesn’t match their optimistic (utter pack of lies) forecasts
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    FPT:
    Eabhal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    viewcode said:

    'He's a brown Hindu, how can he be English?'

    Prick.

    https://x.com/60sJapanfan/status/1891532608837755051

    Who are the pricks Fraser Nelson is repudiating ?
    Fraser Nelson is Scottish and the former editor of the Spectator. For all those who watch Triggernometry (I try not to but sometimes I have to), the two interviewers are Konstantin Kisin and Francis Foster. Basically Konstantin Kisin does all the talking and Francis Foster just sits there, says nothing, and cashes the cheque. The clip dialogue is:
    • Fraser Nelson. I would say that Rishi Sunak is as English as Tizer and Y-fronts. He is absolutely English, he was born and bred here, and I wouldn't say the colour of his skin makes him any less...
    • Konstantin Kisin (interrupting): He's a brown Hindu, how is he English?
    • Fraser Nelson (shocked): Because he was born and bred here.
    • Konstantin Kisin (incredulous): So by being born here you become English in your opinion?
    • Fraser Nelson: Yeah.
    Source: https://x.com/60sJapanfan/status/1891532608837755051
    Nitpicking a bit but why should anyone care whether Konstantin Kison, not born here, thinks Rishi Sunak who is a native to this country, is British?
    That’s nativism.
    Maybe unlike others, I welcome immigrants who have something to offer and are committed to our country. Sometimes mistakes are made however. It looks like Konstantin Kison is one of them.
    He seems to have something to offer and I would assume he is a net contributor fiscally. Should we exclude people on the basis of their views?
    Absolutely exclude people on the basis of their views. What else would you exclude immigrants on?

    And I don't count as "something to offer" going round saying someone who is brown skin and the "wrong" religion doesn't deserve their born nationality
    So would you support banning devout fundamentalist christians on the grounds they have mysogynist views
    I would exile all smokers, cyclists and dog-owners to Rwanda Gaza! :lol:
    Gaza is too good for cyclists
    You inspired me to look at the Strava heat map for Gaza/West Bank, and it's pretty depressing. It's a good indicator of population in developed countries.

    Lots of brave people still whizzing about in Ukraine though.
    Quite a few of those are Russian soldiers on their final journey.
  • Off topic (as the outcome is too obvious - do another one yougov, about a tax rise on 'people who aren't you'):

    what will the response be if Hamas, as they have said, return the dead bodies of the Bibas family this weekend, after they have been murdered by them?

    Only hope is that Hamas are a bunch of liars, so hopefully just another vile twisted lie from them.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619

    And in an example of what I mean:

    Musky Baby praising Russian leadership:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891597935231590477

    I know you're not Elon Musk, but why on earth does slaughtering hundreds of thousands of your countrymen in a pointless invasion of another country count as "competent leadership" ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 18
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    White House says Elon Musk is not part of DOGE
    https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5150599-white-house-elon-musk-doge/
    The White House said Monday that Elon Musk is technically not part of the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), even though the tech billionaire is said to be leading its sweeping cost-cutting efforts.
    Musk is an employee of the “White House Office” and serves as senior advisor to the president, said Joshua Fisher, director of the White House Office of Administration, in a court filing.
    The Tesla and SpaceX CEO is not an employee of the U.S. DOGE Service or the U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization, both of which are separate from the White House Office, according to Fisher.
    He is also not U.S. DOGE Service administrator, the head of DOGE as laid out in President Trump’s executive order last month establishing the service.
    “In his role as a Senior Advisor to the President, Mr. Musk has no greater authority than other senior White House advisors,” Fisher said in his declaration to the court...


    Power without responsibility or accountability.

    To me that sounds as if they are worried, which is a +ve.

    I don't see that line lasting for long with Judge Chutkan.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,458
    FF43 said:

    The problem is the assumption of American support underpins European security. Even if we replace it with all the extra investment, it's a ten year project at best. We probably don't have a choice. We will have to spend a lot more on defence as a continent while depending on what's left of American goodwill in the meantime. It's a desperate situation to be in.

    We don't have a choice.

    And look on the bright side: historically, we would have mostly bought American kit. Now, that doesn't look like such a great idea, and I suspect the domestic defence industry is going to get a boost.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710
    Again Reform UK voters stand apart from supporters of the three older parties.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    edited February 18
    kamski said:

    Has JD Vance complained about this yet?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/feb/18/placebo-frontman-brian-molko-charged-with-defaming-italian-prime-minister-giorgia-meloni

    Placebo frontman Brian Molko is being charged with defamation after appearing to call the Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, a “piece of shit, fascist, racist” in Italian while performing at a festival in Turin in 2023....

    In May, the philosopher Donatella Di Cesare, who was being sued by Meloni’s brother-in-law for comparing one of his speeches to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, claimed that her government was strategically using defamation suits to silence public intellectuals. Meloni’s first year in office recorded the highest number of lawsuits against public participation, according to the European parliament’s civil liberties committee.

    Consistency would require you condemn all such infringements of free speech.
    But we've already seen Vance is inconsistent on that.

    I would guess that PB's free speech absolutists are a bit more consistent than Vance.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,458
    FF43 said:

    And in an example of what I mean:

    Musky Baby praising Russian leadership:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891597935231590477

    I know you're not Elon Musk, but why on earth does slaughtering hundreds of thousands of your countrymen in a pointless invasion of another country count as "competent leadership" ?
    How do you know he's not Elon Musk? The constant criticism of Elon would be the perfect cover.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    And in an example of what I mean:

    Musky Baby praising Russian leadership:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891597935231590477

    I know you're not Elon Musk, but why on earth does slaughtering hundreds of thousands of your countrymen in a pointless invasion of another country count as "competent leadership" ?
    How do you know he's not Elon Musk? The constant criticism of Elon would be the perfect cover.
    I just had drinks with a much-loved Anglo-American lefty friend, out here in the winter, and he STILL tried to argue that Musk is just "lucky", "a mere salesman", "inherited an emerald mine" etc

    Then I talked him through Musk's development of Grok over the last year and a half - and evidenced the latest iteration in front of him - and he was kinda speechless

    Then we went to the go-go bar and had shots
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,458
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Has JD Vance complained about this yet?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/feb/18/placebo-frontman-brian-molko-charged-with-defaming-italian-prime-minister-giorgia-meloni

    Placebo frontman Brian Molko is being charged with defamation after appearing to call the Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, a “piece of shit, fascist, racist” in Italian while performing at a festival in Turin in 2023....

    In May, the philosopher Donatella Di Cesare, who was being sued by Meloni’s brother-in-law for comparing one of his speeches to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, claimed that her government was strategically using defamation suits to silence public intellectuals. Meloni’s first year in office recorded the highest number of lawsuits against public participation, according to the European parliament’s civil liberties committee.

    Consistency would require you condemn all such infringements of free speech.
    But we've already seen Vance is inconsistent on that.

    I would guess that PB's free speech absolutists are a bit more consistent than Vance.
    Most people who profess to believe in freedom of speech actually only believe in freedom of speech they agree with.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    When I looked at this the other day, papers such as the Telegrunt had remanufactured the question in their pieces to be "taxes" rather than "taxes on people like you".

    Which is materially different.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,181

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,433
    Sort of on topic:

    In my view, when considering the degree to which we can rely on USA as a future ally, we need to distinguish between:
    - USA as predictably isolationist; and
    - USA as nefarious actor undermining European stability in favour of a 'spheres of influence' multipolar world that excludes us.

    In the former case I can see that we can continue to have a productive alliance, though on different terms than previously. In the latter case we clearly need to ally with Europe against USA.

    Thus a big cut in military expenditure in USA doesn't really bother me, whereas the current shenanigans in Riyadh seem much more dodgy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,554

    Again Reform UK voters stand apart from supporters of the three older parties.

    The significant thing is that Tory and Reform voters are at opposite ends of the spectrum with Labour and the Lib Dems in the middle.
  • Also from this yougov series, government approval is now heading towards the nadir of the Conservatives:

    Approve: 14% (-2 from 8-10 Feb)
    Disapprove: 68% (+4)
    Net: -54 (-6)

    Going to struggle to get much worse than this.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,794
    Scott_xP said:

    @simongosden.bsky.social‬
    ·
    20m
    Erdoğa just threw down the gauntlet—Turkey backs Ukraine’s FULL territorial integrity.

    Turkey ain’t just some side player in this. They control the Black Sea. They control NATO’s southern flank. And now, Erdoğan is making it clear: Russia’s land grab is not up for negotiation

    That was always Turkey's position, has Erdoğan restated it today?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,515
    eek said:

    This extra defence spending is coming alongside a spending review which is highlighting how much money is required to fix things that we don’t have the money to fix.

    To say April /June (whenever the spending review is finalized) is going to be painful is an understatement

    What we urgently need to do is find a list of things that we are not going to do in future so that the money can be diverted.

    My guess is that what we will get instead is lots of cuts which fall almost exclusively on front line services rather than back office management.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,458

    Also from this yougov series, government approval is now heading towards the nadir of the Conservatives:

    Approve: 14% (-2 from 8-10 Feb)
    Disapprove: 68% (+4)
    Net: -54 (-6)

    Going to struggle to get much worse than this.

    It's true, there's a hard ceiling at -100.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,742

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    so that would be the people who toughed out and paid for the cold war should pay for it again and the people who pissed the peace dividend up the wall should be bailed out ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,458

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    so that would be the people who toughed out and paid for the cold war should pay for it again and the people who pissed the peace dividend up the wall should be bailed out ?
    Well, the ones who "toughed out and paid for the cold war" also won the house price lottery, so it seems like a fair trade.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    Thames Water wins court backing for £3bn debt package

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/feb/18/thames-water-wins-court-backing-for-debt-package
    Thames Water has won court approval for an emergency debt package worth up to £3bn that should stave off the collapse of Britain’s biggest water company for at least another few months.

    London’s high court said on Tuesday that the deal could proceed, after hearing four days of complex arguments earlier this month over whether it should go ahead. The deal will allow the company to avoid special administration, in effect a temporary nationalisation.

    Thames, which has 16 million customers and 8,000 employees, has been on the verge of collapse for months, with debts of about £19bn. The financial difficulties have contributed to underinvestment in the pipes and drains needed to prevent sewage overflows into rivers and seas.

    The deal will give Thames £1.5bn in cash, released monthly, plus up to £1.5bn more to see it through an appeal to try to increase bills by more than the 35% allowed by the industry regulator for England and Wales, Ofwat.

    On Friday, Thames announced the appeal, to be decided by the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA), as it awaited the court judgment...</I<
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,181
    rcs1000 said:

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    so that would be the people who toughed out and paid for the cold war should pay for it again and the people who pissed the peace dividend up the wall should be bailed out ?
    Well, the ones who "toughed out and paid for the cold war" also won the house price lottery, so it seems like a fair trade.
    Exactly.

    We need £ for rearming.

    Where is all the £ in this country?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,742
    rcs1000 said:

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    so that would be the people who toughed out and paid for the cold war should pay for it again and the people who pissed the peace dividend up the wall should be bailed out ?
    Well, the ones who "toughed out and paid for the cold war" also won the house price lottery, so it seems like a fair trade.
    so youre saying that if Gen Z refight the cold war theyll all have big houses

    theyd better get on with it,
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    edited February 18
    kamski said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @simongosden.bsky.social‬
    ·
    20m
    Erdoğa just threw down the gauntlet—Turkey backs Ukraine’s FULL territorial integrity.

    Turkey ain’t just some side player in this. They control the Black Sea. They control NATO’s southern flank. And now, Erdoğan is making it clear: Russia’s land grab is not up for negotiation

    That was always Turkey's position, has Erdoğan restated it today?
    It was, but it’s notable it’s being restated now at a time that European leaders seem already to be rowing back on the idea.

    What’s the wily old dog up to? Erdogan always plays his own game.

    EDIT: possibly reflecting current Syrian situation, post-facto rationalisation of the Azerbaijan ethnic cleansing, a warning to Putin on Turkic central Asian republics, and maybe also the prospect of some cushy deals with Ukraine on trade.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,515
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    This extra defence spending is coming alongside a spending review which is highlighting how much money is required to fix things that we don’t have the money to fix.

    To say April /June (whenever the spending review is finalized) is going to be painful is an understatement

    What we urgently need to do is find a list of things that we are not going to do in future so that the money can be diverted.

    My guess is that what we will get instead is lots of cuts which fall almost exclusively on front line services rather than back office management.
    My initial suggestion would be to have a rake through Ed Miliband’s intray. Carbon capture is an obvious starting point but it’s very unlikely to be the only way he is throwing away money.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,794
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Has JD Vance complained about this yet?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/feb/18/placebo-frontman-brian-molko-charged-with-defaming-italian-prime-minister-giorgia-meloni

    Placebo frontman Brian Molko is being charged with defamation after appearing to call the Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, a “piece of shit, fascist, racist” in Italian while performing at a festival in Turin in 2023....

    In May, the philosopher Donatella Di Cesare, who was being sued by Meloni’s brother-in-law for comparing one of his speeches to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, claimed that her government was strategically using defamation suits to silence public intellectuals. Meloni’s first year in office recorded the highest number of lawsuits against public participation, according to the European parliament’s civil liberties committee.

    Consistency would require you condemn all such infringements of free speech.
    But we've already seen Vance is inconsistent on that.

    I would guess that PB's free speech absolutists are a bit more consistent than Vance.
    If there's a threat to free speech in Europe it comes from the political parties Vance/Trump/Musk support (see also Orbán etc).

    Instead he's making up bollocks about it being illegal to pray in your home in Scotland, or people in Germany being arrested for making anti feminist comments
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 18
    When I looked at this the other day, papers such as the Telegrunt had remanufactured the question in their pieces to be "taxes" rather than "taxes on people like you", which is materially different though a relevant question.

    On the header, I'm reminded that the White Poppy movement (ie Peace Pledge Union - supporting a negotiated peace with Hitler) had a membership with peaked at 140k in 1940.

    On the stats in the header, one recalcitrant group are some of the people who are down the Reform, sometimes Trumpist Reform, rabbit hole.

    See the comments on this one from the Black Belt Barrister, where he attacks the prospect of Peace Keepers in Ukraine, without properly addressing what a Peace Keeping force actually is, or the economy of stopping Putin now rather than having a full blown war costing 10 or 50x as much later.

    Much about 'forces should be protecting our borders from asylum seekers before we send any to Ukraine to protect their borders' and similar. It's frighteningly simplistic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkZk_Ixwb2s
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,554
    TimS said:

    kamski said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @simongosden.bsky.social‬
    ·
    20m
    Erdoğa just threw down the gauntlet—Turkey backs Ukraine’s FULL territorial integrity.

    Turkey ain’t just some side player in this. They control the Black Sea. They control NATO’s southern flank. And now, Erdoğan is making it clear: Russia’s land grab is not up for negotiation

    That was always Turkey's position, has Erdoğan restated it today?
    It was, but it’s notable it’s being restated now at a time that European leaders seem already to be rowing back on the idea.

    What’s the wily old dog up to? Erdogan always plays his own game.
    Russia is genuinely a geopolitical rival for Turkey in a way that we (Britain) only pretend it is.
  • A suggestion.

    Start from the basis that we will almost double defence spending - from approx £54 billion this year to £100 billion as soon as possible.

    So we are looking for an extra £46 billion a year

    It has been estimated that getting rid of the triple lock will save £10 billion a year.
    It was estimated by a cross party group in 2018 that increasing NI by 1p in the pound would raise £12 billion a year.
    It has also been estimated that making penioners pay NI when they work would raise an additional £1.5 billion a year

    Yes these are estimates but they are from reliable sources inside and outside Government not just numbers plucked out of the air.

    So straight away we are just over half way to the requireed £46 billion additinal without even having to think too hard about it.

    And these are annual savings, not one offs. Which makes them more sustainable.

    I am sure there are others on here who can suggest similar savings/increases to bridge that gap.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,583
    Russia apparently refusing to have any European countries involved in boots on the ground as part of security guarantees .

    That complicates things .
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,515
    nico67 said:

    Russia apparently refusing to have any European countries involved in boots on the ground as part of security guarantees .

    That complicates things .

    Well it does if we ask them. Why we would do that is beyond me.

    But Scholz is, for once, right about this. Talking about how a peace is going to be policed before you even have a peace is putting the cart before the horse.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068

    Again Reform UK voters stand apart from supporters of the three older parties.

    The significant thing is that Tory and Reform voters are at opposite ends of the spectrum with Labour and the Lib Dems in the middle.
    For once, you are right.
    Though it would be interesting to see a polls which delved into individual parties' supporters. Reform, as we've seen on other issues, have shown quite a large disconnect between the opinions of their core vote and those of their less committed vote.

    Lab and Lib also show a higher number of "don't knows".

    I'd also like to see the same poll repeated without the "people like you" qualifier.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,560
    rcs1000 said:

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    so that would be the people who toughed out and paid for the cold war should pay for it again and the people who pissed the peace dividend up the wall should be bailed out ?
    Well, the ones who "toughed out and paid for the cold war" also won the house price lottery, so it seems like a fair trade.
    Some more than others. House price inflation in the North East is miserly compared to more affluent regions
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104
    MattW said:

    When I looked at this the other day, papers such as the Telegrunt had remanufactured the question in their pieces to be "taxes" rather than "taxes on people like you", which is materially different though a relevant question.

    On the header, I'm reminded that the White Poppy movement (ie Peace Pledge Union - supporting a negotiated peace with Hitler) had a membership with peaked at 140k in 1940.

    On the stats in the header, one recalcitrant group are some of the people who are down the Reform, sometimes Trumpist Reform, rabbit hole.

    See the comments on this one from the Black Belt Barrister, where he attacks the prospect of Peace Keepers in Ukraine, without properly addressing what a Peace Keeping force actually is, or the economy of stopping Putin now rather than having a full blown war costing 10 or 50x as much later.

    Much about 'forces should be protecting our borders from asylum seekers before we send any to Ukraine to protect their borders' and similar. It's frighteningly simplistic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkZk_Ixwb2s

    I gather a significant proportion of the current asylum seekers are young men. Could we not tell them that if they satisfactorily complete (say) ten years military service, then they will be granted citizenship.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,350
    edited February 18
    Business Secretary claimed he was a solicitor... despite never qualifying
    Jonathan Reynolds told the Commons he worked as one in Manchester but he quit trainee course to run as an MP

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/02/18/jonathan-reynolds-business-secretary-solicitor-claims/ (£££)

    Or on Guido, apparently. Reynolds does seem to have used solicitor and trainee solicitor, so maybe not pitchfork-worthy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    .

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    I assume they're not "people like you" ? :wink:
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 18
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    The problem is the assumption of American support underpins European security. Even if we replace it with all the extra investment, it's a ten year project at best. We probably don't have a choice. We will have to spend a lot more on defence as a continent while depending on what's left of American goodwill in the meantime. It's a desperate situation to be in.

    We don't have a choice.

    And look on the bright side: historically, we would have mostly bought American kit. Now, that doesn't look like such a great idea, and I suspect the domestic defence industry is going to get a boost.
    There's another potential complexity there - would Trump force BAe Systems to split in two. 44% of their turnover is in the USA.

    It already has lots of internal Chinese walls because of Usonian rules around eg things limited to sight of American Citizens only (which is a bit rich given that Trump was stealing Secret material, lying to the FBI about it, and showing it to that Australian called Pratt).

    They just won a $250m contract to maintain Aegis systems (which are the Combat Operations Systems of USN ships).
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-systems-wins-251m-aegis-contract/

    (My answer is I expect not, unless something around Ukraine, eg not using enough weasel words or Lord Mandelbrot losing track of his 18 dimensional chess, triggers a tantrum or a fugue. We are still very tightly tied in to things like Aukus and key players in F35, which has lots of value to the USA - even for Trump.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,157
    edited February 18
    nico67 said:

    Russia apparently refusing to have any European countries involved in boots on the ground as part of security guarantees .

    That complicates things .

    The Russian position is basically this; we keep what we've taken, sanctions end, there is a ceasefire, there is no meaningful deterrent, we rearm, then we either have another go at Ukraine, or nab a bit of the Baltics and threaten WW III to keep them.

    I don't know what the European plan will be but I hope it involves trillions spent on rearmament to make Putin crap himself.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,167
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    This extra defence spending is coming alongside a spending review which is highlighting how much money is required to fix things that we don’t have the money to fix.

    To say April /June (whenever the spending review is finalized) is going to be painful is an understatement

    What we urgently need to do is find a list of things that we are not going to do in future so that the money can be diverted.

    My guess is that what we will get instead is lots of cuts which fall almost exclusively on front line services rather than back office management.
    You're forgetting even heavier taxation of wages which will all get handed straight back out in pensions, rather than being invested in fixing any of these problems.
  • Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    I would say that as someone born during the war and has experienced rationing, little money, struggled in our early married life to pay a mortgage whilst my wife stayed at home to bring up our 3 children (59, 53, 50) and as a consequence has an annual pension of just over £5,000, built 2 businesses and paid lots of tax and continue to do so, that everyone should pay their taxes and it is for the government to manage those taxes responsibly and take hard unpopular decisions where necessary.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,617

    We have for so many years blithely assumed that the Americans would be there. We have become lazy, and happy to run down our armed forces, because there wasn't going to be a need for a conventional army, navy and air force - it was all about terrorism. And yet here we are.
    What we do have is the excellent nucleus of larger forces, if we have the desire and money to do it, we can increase the size of the army, we can buy planes and drones. But as always voters are happy for tax raises on other people.

    I don't disagree. But we do need to assess the probability of Russia seeking territorial conquest outside Ukraine, and in particular against NATO members. A lot of the comments on this thread seem to put that probability very high, whereas the difficulty that Russia has experienced in Ukraine suggests that directly taking on a NATO country is really unlikely. We might wish to intervene in a different conflict, so the answer may not be nothing even if we don't expect a direct threat to a NATO member, but the assessment needs to be made.
  • Man jailed for abusive emails to politicians
    ...
    A 39-year-old man has been jailed for sending malicious communications to a government minister, the mayor of London and a senior Met Police officer.

    Jack Bennett, of Newlands Park, Seaton, Devon, pleaded guilty to four counts of sending malicious emails; one to Safeguarding Minister Jess Phillips, one to Metropolitan police officer Matt Twist, and two counts to Mayor Sadiq Khan.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3rndxj705jo

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,870
    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    Russia apparently refusing to have any European countries involved in boots on the ground as part of security guarantees .

    That complicates things .

    Well it does if we ask them. Why we would do that is beyond me.

    But Scholz is, for once, right about this. Talking about how a peace is going to be policed before you even have a peace is putting the cart before the horse.
    I disagree.

    There are two issues to be resolved.
    The first is the border.
    The second is Ukrainian security.

    European troops in Ukraine is germane to the second point.
  • trukattrukat Posts: 44
    glw said:

    nico67 said:

    Russia apparently refusing to have any European countries involved in boots on the ground as part of security guarantees .

    That complicates things .

    The Russian position is basically this; we keep what we've taken, sanctions end, there is a ceasefire, there is no meaningful deterrent, we rearm, then we either have another go at Ukraine, or nab a bit of the Baltics and threaten WW III to keep them.

    I don't know what the European plan will be but I hope it involves trillions spent on rearmament to make Putin crap himself.
    The European plan is to hope someone else takes care of it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,922

    Business Secretary claimed he was a solicitor... despite never qualifying
    Jonathan Reynolds told the Commons he worked as one in Manchester but he quit trainee course to run as an MP

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/02/18/jonathan-reynolds-business-secretary-solicitor-claims/ (£££)

    Or on Guido, apparently. Reynolds does seem to have used solicitor and trainee solicitor, so maybe not pitchfork-worthy.

    Doesn’t the Law Society get very upset by people making such… mistakes ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,595
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    And in an example of what I mean:

    Musky Baby praising Russian leadership:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891597935231590477

    I know you're not Elon Musk, but why on earth does slaughtering hundreds of thousands of your countrymen in a pointless invasion of another country count as "competent leadership" ?
    How do you know he's not Elon Musk? The constant criticism of Elon would be the perfect cover.
    I wouldn't want to be Musk. Not ever.

    I have a good life. Besides a few rather sh*tty things happening, I've had a good life. (touches wood). We have a house with no mortgage, money in the bank and in investments, and an income that allows one of us not to work. We're all healthy and happy. Steve Jobs' riches didn't save him from an early grave.

    What would I gain from being richer than Crassus? I'm happy; and I'm pretty sure Musk isn't happy. I've also achieved stuff he hasn't. :)

    In fact, Musk strikes me as being a deeply unhappy person.
  • A suggestion.

    Start from the basis that we will almost double defence spending - from approx £54 billion this year to £100 billion as soon as possible.

    So we are looking for an extra £46 billion a year

    It has been estimated that getting rid of the triple lock will save £10 billion a year.
    It was estimated by a cross party group in 2018 that increasing NI by 1p in the pound would raise £12 billion a year.
    It has also been estimated that making penioners pay NI when they work would raise an additional £1.5 billion a year

    Yes these are estimates but they are from reliable sources inside and outside Government not just numbers plucked out of the air.

    So straight away we are just over half way to the requireed £46 billion additinal without even having to think too hard about it.

    And these are annual savings, not one offs. Which makes them more sustainable.

    I am sure there are others on here who can suggest similar savings/increases to bridge that gap.

    There's no point at all in carbon capture schemes any more, so that's another few bob.
  • Richard Nixon on the mistake of trusting the Russians at Yalta. (40-second video)
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EgXvnGNJDBQ
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,502

    We have for so many years blithely assumed that the Americans would be there. We have become lazy, and happy to run down our armed forces, because there wasn't going to be a need for a conventional army, navy and air force - it was all about terrorism. And yet here we are.
    What we do have is the excellent nucleus of larger forces, if we have the desire and money to do it, we can increase the size of the army, we can buy planes and drones. But as always voters are happy for tax raises on other people.

    I don't disagree. But we do need to assess the probability of Russia seeking territorial conquest outside Ukraine, and in particular against NATO members. A lot of the comments on this thread seem to put that probability very high, whereas the difficulty that Russia has experienced in Ukraine suggests that directly taking on a NATO country is really unlikely. We might wish to intervene in a different conflict, so the answer may not be nothing even if we don't expect a direct threat to a NATO member, but the assessment needs to be made.
    I can't imagine another conflict we would prioritise over a Russian invasion of Eastern Europe? Maybe i have misunderstood you.

    As to whether Russia will invade again, I don't know. But its notable that their economy is on a war footing, once you do that, aren't you more likely to use the military you have again?

    Whether it be another attempt on Ukraine, or another country. By some metrics they are spending more on their army than the rest of Europe. That's not a comfortable position for me to be honest...
  • trukattrukat Posts: 44

    A suggestion.

    Start from the basis that we will almost double defence spending - from approx £54 billion this year to £100 billion as soon as possible.

    So we are looking for an extra £46 billion a year

    It has been estimated that getting rid of the triple lock will save £10 billion a year.
    It was estimated by a cross party group in 2018 that increasing NI by 1p in the pound would raise £12 billion a year.
    It has also been estimated that making penioners pay NI when they work would raise an additional £1.5 billion a year

    Yes these are estimates but they are from reliable sources inside and outside Government not just numbers plucked out of the air.

    So straight away we are just over half way to the requireed £46 billion additinal without even having to think too hard about it.

    And these are annual savings, not one offs. Which makes them more sustainable.

    I am sure there are others on here who can suggest similar savings/increases to bridge that gap.

    There's no point at all in carbon capture schemes any more, so that's another few bob.
    Cut overseas aid in half and get 6.5 billion. If you're not prepared to send less to other countries, how are you selling the end of the triple lock to the public?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,776
    The last thing we need is another department given blank cheques due to a vast budget increase with no plan of what we actually need and what it's going to cost. The last time this happened, it was international aid, and resulted in stuff like new ipads all round because they had budget they needed to spend. Generals and military procurement companies will be slavering over this sort of blanket budget increase and if it is left to Sir Useless it will be a money hemorrhaging disaster. No budget increases without a plan -period.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,595

    We have for so many years blithely assumed that the Americans would be there. We have become lazy, and happy to run down our armed forces, because there wasn't going to be a need for a conventional army, navy and air force - it was all about terrorism. And yet here we are.
    What we do have is the excellent nucleus of larger forces, if we have the desire and money to do it, we can increase the size of the army, we can buy planes and drones. But as always voters are happy for tax raises on other people.

    I don't disagree. But we do need to assess the probability of Russia seeking territorial conquest outside Ukraine, and in particular against NATO members. A lot of the comments on this thread seem to put that probability very high, whereas the difficulty that Russia has experienced in Ukraine suggests that directly taking on a NATO country is really unlikely. We might wish to intervene in a different conflict, so the answer may not be nothing even if we don't expect a direct threat to a NATO member, but the assessment needs to be made.
    As I've said many times, Russia has two approaches to expansion:

    Firstly, try politically. Sow discord in enemy countries. Fund activist groups against the governments. Fund opposition groups, parties and causes.

    Secondly, if that fails, try militarily.

    From Putin's perspective, America removing itself from NATO (for all practical purposes) means NATO is not a force to be reckoned with. It isn't a threat. It never was; but that's the lie he likes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    To answer the question as asked, I would support higher taxes to pay for this, including on "people like me", and indeed, me.

    If Europe doesn't stand together now, and say no to Trump and Putin imposing a temporary settlement on us, then it will get much uglier, and costlier in the future.

    One tiny consolation is that the idiots who said it will be just like 판문점 are quite exploded.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,493
    edited February 18

    Leadership. That's what we need on this.

    For sure.

    But we also need more Europe.

    And, more critically than ever, we need someone to work out what precisely defence spending needs, in the modern era. The Ukrainians with their masses of drones have shown that it doesn’t necessarily mean the same expensive tanks and ships and stuff that has been the assumption since 1945.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200

    Man jailed for abusive emails to politicians
    ...
    A 39-year-old man has been jailed for sending malicious communications to a government minister, the mayor of London and a senior Met Police officer.

    Jack Bennett, of Newlands Park, Seaton, Devon, pleaded guilty to four counts of sending malicious emails; one to Safeguarding Minister Jess Phillips, one to Metropolitan police officer Matt Twist, and two counts to Mayor Sadiq Khan.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3rndxj705jo

    It will be interesting to see if JD Vance or Elon Musk weighs in on this one as Freedom of Speech.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,433

    Good afternoon

    We do need to increase defence spending as do the EU 27, but finding the money means hard and unpopular choices

    Reports on how well the US - Russia talks have gone by each party deem them a success as Trump brings Putin in from the cold and looks at strengthening the relationship between the countries

    And by the way they did talk about Ukraine, but apparently not more important than getting Russia back into the international community

    The world has changed in just a few weeks and with unknown consequences and alliances

    It is time for the boomers, who have lived long and rather gilded lives thanks to eighty years of peace in europe, to dig deep and stump up for the defence costs that may stop their kids and grandkids having to fight fascism again on foreign soils.

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
    George Washington
    I would say that as someone born during the war and has experienced rationing, little money, struggled in our early married life to pay a mortgage whilst my wife stayed at home to bring up our 3 children (59, 53, 50) and as a consequence has an annual pension of just over £5,000, built 2 businesses and paid lots of tax and continue to do so, that everyone should pay their taxes and it is for the government to manage those taxes responsibly and take hard unpopular decisions where necessary.
    Big G I generally agree the generational finger pointing is pointless and divisive. I would, though, love a world in which one of my wife or I could afford to stay home to look after our kids.

    Gender inequality aside, that your wife was able to do this isn't something to complain about.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,167

    We have for so many years blithely assumed that the Americans would be there. We have become lazy, and happy to run down our armed forces, because there wasn't going to be a need for a conventional army, navy and air force - it was all about terrorism. And yet here we are.
    What we do have is the excellent nucleus of larger forces, if we have the desire and money to do it, we can increase the size of the army, we can buy planes and drones. But as always voters are happy for tax raises on other people.

    I don't disagree. But we do need to assess the probability of Russia seeking territorial conquest outside Ukraine, and in particular against NATO members. A lot of the comments on this thread seem to put that probability very high, whereas the difficulty that Russia has experienced in Ukraine suggests that directly taking on a NATO country is really unlikely. We might wish to intervene in a different conflict, so the answer may not be nothing even if we don't expect a direct threat to a NATO member, but the assessment needs to be made.
    Russia will be emboldened by the outcome whatever settlement is made over Ukraine. It seems likely to give it at least a large fraction of what it wants - and Ukraine is a vastly larger and stronger opponent than any of the Baltic States, which are the next obvious targets. Why would Putin or his doubtless even more revolting successors do anything but keep picking off chunks of territory, unless they are either beaten in battle or convinced that they would lose if they tried. Arming Europe to the teeth is how the latter is achieved and the former averted.

    The Russians can't be trusted and should be viewed as enemies regardless of what happens next over Ukraine. "They might not do anything so everything's peachy" is not the way to deal with enemies.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,560
    trukat said:

    glw said:

    nico67 said:

    Russia apparently refusing to have any European countries involved in boots on the ground as part of security guarantees .

    That complicates things .

    The Russian position is basically this; we keep what we've taken, sanctions end, there is a ceasefire, there is no meaningful deterrent, we rearm, then we either have another go at Ukraine, or nab a bit of the Baltics and threaten WW III to keep them.

    I don't know what the European plan will be but I hope it involves trillions spent on rearmament to make Putin crap himself.
    The European plan is to hope someone else takes care of it.
    That’s always the European plan to be fair.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,880

    Richard Nixon on the mistake of trusting the Russians at Yalta. (40-second video)
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EgXvnGNJDBQ

    It's their usp, no-one does deception, lying or pretence better
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,502
    MoD can have the money to build up our forces in response to Russia threat only if they reform procurement, and cut some of the pointless stuff that doesn't contribute to our defence. No need for aircraft carrier sitting ducks for instance. Frankly I'm not sure there's any need to procure anything that takes 30 years to make for the military... New tech makes things obsolete pretty fast these days...
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,335
    edited February 18
    IanB2 said:

    Leadership. That's what we need on this.

    For sure.

    But we also need more Europe.

    And, more critically than ever, we need someone to work out what precisely defence spending needs, in the modern era. The Ukrainians with their masses of drones have shown that it doesn’t necessarily mean the same expensive tanks and ships and stuff that has been the assumption since 1945.
    No we need less Europe. It was France and Germany's pitiful inaction in 2014 that allowed Putin to think he could get away with the full scale invasion in 2024. Germany's first reaction to the invasion was to send 5,000 helmets and it has refused throughout to send Taurus missiles to the Ukrainians, and obviously just wants to get back to enjoying cheap Russian gas. And remember photos of Macron at that stupid long table sucking up to Putin?

    And that's before we even get into the Hungarians, Slovaks, Austrians ...

  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200

    The last thing we need is another department given blank cheques due to a vast budget increase with no plan of what we actually need and what it's going to cost. The last time this happened, it was international aid, and resulted in stuff like new ipads all round because they had budget they needed to spend. Generals and military procurement companies will be slavering over this sort of blanket budget increase and if it is left to Sir Useless it will be a money hemorrhaging disaster. No budget increases without a plan -period.

    The top management have just been redone - I linked the presentation this morning;

    But changing it, and the changes working, are two different things.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,493

    Again Reform UK voters stand apart from supporters of the three older parties.

    The significant thing is that Tory and Reform voters are at opposite ends of the spectrum with Labour and the Lib Dems in the middle.
    Or, to pitch the same observation a different way, that these pesky Reform voters really aren’t just transitional Tories having some sort of voting holiday.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068

    We have for so many years blithely assumed that the Americans would be there. We have become lazy, and happy to run down our armed forces, because there wasn't going to be a need for a conventional army, navy and air force - it was all about terrorism. And yet here we are.
    What we do have is the excellent nucleus of larger forces, if we have the desire and money to do it, we can increase the size of the army, we can buy planes and drones. But as always voters are happy for tax raises on other people.

    I don't disagree. But we do need to assess the probability of Russia seeking territorial conquest outside Ukraine, and in particular against NATO members. A lot of the comments on this thread seem to put that probability very high, whereas the difficulty that Russia has experienced in Ukraine suggests that directly taking on a NATO country is really unlikely. We might wish to intervene in a different conflict, so the answer may not be nothing even if we don't expect a direct threat to a NATO member, but the assessment needs to be made.
    So you're already conceding further "territorial conquest" in Ukraine ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,560

    I see the Americans have agreed to normalise relations with Russia, including discussions about trade barriers.

    So that’s 5-0 to Russia.

    So what happens to the war crimes allegations and sanctions ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,560
    edited February 18

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    And in an example of what I mean:

    Musky Baby praising Russian leadership:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891597935231590477

    I know you're not Elon Musk, but why on earth does slaughtering hundreds of thousands of your countrymen in a pointless invasion of another country count as "competent leadership" ?
    How do you know he's not Elon Musk? The constant criticism of Elon would be the perfect cover.
    I wouldn't want to be Musk. Not ever.

    I have a good life. Besides a few rather sh*tty things happening, I've had a good life. (touches wood). We have a house with no mortgage, money in the bank and in investments, and an income that allows one of us not to work. We're all healthy and happy. Steve Jobs' riches didn't save him from an early grave.

    What would I gain from being richer than Crassus? I'm happy; and I'm pretty sure Musk isn't happy. I've also achieved stuff he hasn't. :)

    In fact, Musk strikes me as being a deeply unhappy person.
    So what do you get from coming on here and regularly being a shit to complete strangers given you have such a happy and fulfilled life 🤷‍♂️

    BTW it’s a rhetorical question 👍
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,611
    rkrkrk said:

    MoD can have the money to build up our forces in response to Russia threat only if they reform procurement, and cut some of the pointless stuff that doesn't contribute to our defence. No need for aircraft carrier sitting ducks for instance. Frankly I'm not sure there's any need to procure anything that takes 30 years to make for the military... New tech makes things obsolete pretty fast these days...

    I assume those of you saying a Cold War scenario doesn’t require aircraft carriers haven’t ever looked at the old Cold War defence plans? They were pivotal to it. Absent the U.S. we probably need another carrier, and for all three to have full air groups. So do the French.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,468

    A suggestion.

    Start from the basis that we will almost double defence spending - from approx £54 billion this year to £100 billion as soon as possible.

    So we are looking for an extra £46 billion a year

    It has been estimated that getting rid of the triple lock will save £10 billion a year.
    It was estimated by a cross party group in 2018 that increasing NI by 1p in the pound would raise £12 billion a year.
    It has also been estimated that making penioners pay NI when they work would raise an additional £1.5 billion a year

    Yes these are estimates but they are from reliable sources inside and outside Government not just numbers plucked out of the air.

    So straight away we are just over half way to the requireed £46 billion additinal without even having to think too hard about it.

    And these are annual savings, not one offs. Which makes them more sustainable.

    I am sure there are others on here who can suggest similar savings/increases to bridge that gap.

    There's no point at all in carbon capture schemes any more, so that's another few bob.
    The money for NZT/NEP is already committed, and will start to flow out of the Treasury in 2028 at the earliest.

    Other projects due to reach FID in the coming months, then the full £22 bn for Track 1 (T1) initial phase will be committed. £2.2 bn a year over a decade, near enough.

    However, the rest of T1, T1x and T2 could be paused. I reckon that lot would cost government another £30 bn, based on the same funding formula as T1.

    Always happy to assist, when it comes to CCS.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 18
    IanB2 said:

    Leadership. That's what we need on this.

    For sure.

    But we also need more Europe.

    And, more critically than ever, we need someone to work out what precisely defence spending needs, in the modern era. The Ukrainians with their masses of drones have shown that it doesn’t necessarily mean the same expensive tanks and ships and stuff that has been the assumption since 1945.
    There's some really interesting things happening around various types of drones.

    This one from Helsing is trailed as an AI drone, but I'm interested that they are pursuing a manufacturing model similar to the shadow factories used in the UK in WW2 - that is multiple factories in different countries, which would be somewhat more resilient to hybrid attacks.

    (You need to listen to about 2 minutes.)

    https://youtu.be/xYsnlmnKNAQ?t=29
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,768
    kamski said:

    Has JD Vance complained about this yet?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/feb/18/placebo-frontman-brian-molko-charged-with-defaming-italian-prime-minister-giorgia-meloni

    Placebo frontman Brian Molko is being charged with defamation after appearing to call the Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, a “piece of shit, fascist, racist” in Italian while performing at a festival in Turin in 2023.

    ...

    In May, the philosopher Donatella Di Cesare, who was being sued by Meloni’s brother-in-law for comparing one of his speeches to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, claimed that her government was strategically using defamation suits to silence public intellectuals. Meloni’s first year in office recorded the highest number of lawsuits against public participation, according to the European parliament’s civil liberties committee.

    Fiocchi di neve is Italian for snowflakes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,614

    Richard Nixon on the mistake of trusting the Russians at Yalta. (40-second video)
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EgXvnGNJDBQ

    I misread that as 'Richard Nixon's mistake was trusting the Russians at Yalta,' which was a genuine WTF moment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    pigeon said:

    We have for so many years blithely assumed that the Americans would be there. We have become lazy, and happy to run down our armed forces, because there wasn't going to be a need for a conventional army, navy and air force - it was all about terrorism. And yet here we are.
    What we do have is the excellent nucleus of larger forces, if we have the desire and money to do it, we can increase the size of the army, we can buy planes and drones. But as always voters are happy for tax raises on other people.

    I don't disagree. But we do need to assess the probability of Russia seeking territorial conquest outside Ukraine, and in particular against NATO members. A lot of the comments on this thread seem to put that probability very high, whereas the difficulty that Russia has experienced in Ukraine suggests that directly taking on a NATO country is really unlikely. We might wish to intervene in a different conflict, so the answer may not be nothing even if we don't expect a direct threat to a NATO member, but the assessment needs to be made.
    Russia will be emboldened by the outcome whatever settlement is made over Ukraine. It seems likely to give it at least a large fraction of what it wants - and Ukraine is a vastly larger and stronger opponent than any of the Baltic States, which are the next obvious targets. Why would Putin or his doubtless even more revolting successors do anything but keep picking off chunks of territory, unless they are either beaten in battle or convinced that they would lose if they tried. Arming Europe to the teeth is how the latter is achieved and the former averted.

    The Russians can't be trusted and should be viewed as enemies regardless of what happens next over Ukraine. "They might not do anything so everything's peachy" is not the way to deal with enemies.
    Georgia is a more obvious next target.

    If Russia gets what it wants in a deal with Trump, then a limited form of conflict probing the frontline NATO states, of the sort it engaged in against Ukraine between the annexation of Crimea and the outright invasion of 2022, is more likely.
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