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Streeting’s little local difficulties could stop him succeeding Starmer – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,066
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    Not really. China, France, Russia, the UK, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, the EU, Egypt and Turkey, the US Democrats all still back a 2 state solution.

    Only Hamas, who still want to wipe Israel from the map in theory and Trump and Netanyahu, who want to wipe Palestine from the map and have a greater Israel, disagree
    Backing a “2 state solution” now is like backing “a negotiated peace” between Nazi Germany and the USSR two years after Barbarossa, ie about mid 1943

    I mean, great if you can do it. Go for it. Knock yerself out. You will save 10 million lives if you do it

    But it’s simply not going to happen. Both sides are way beyond that, and bent upon the destruction of the other

    Given that Israel has nukes and the Palestinians do not, the end result of this is probably the utter destruction of the Palestinians, as no Arab/Muslim country will, ultimately, intervene to save them lest they are themselves nuked by Israel

    So the best that can be done is to persuade the Palestinians to give up, and to go live in luxurious comfort in condos somewhere else, and the world will willingly give them much money to ease the journey

    Trump, being a ruthless dealmaking pragmatist, sees this, in his weird narcissistic way. I don’t believe he is any more pro-Israel than the average POTUS, indeed possibly less. He is greedier and more practical
    Funnily enough, pre-Kursk, Stalin was still putting out peace feelers to Germany, allowing them to retain some of their Eastern conquests. Of course, Hitler was uninterested.

    Stalingrad obscures the fact that most of the fighting in the Winter and Spring of 1942/43 went very badly for the Soviets.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,570

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    A bold solution would be to offer them a new home in up state New York or New Mexico.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,829
    edited February 5
    Pro_Rata said:

    So Wiki has updated the formal defence numbers for the council elections this year in light of the 7 counties that have been deferred, the 5 who never applied to defer and the 9 counties who were denied deferral.

    Seats being defended (i.e. those won at last election without defections) are as follows:

    Con 1058 defences
    Lab 307
    LD 220
    Green 37
    Reform 2

    No defence numbers given for Ind etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_United_Kingdom_local_elections?wprov=sfla1

    First things first, we need to know who is standing & where. Nomination deadline for Notts is 4th April. Will Reform be putting up candidates across the board ?
    The nitty gritty of finding 10 nominations...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    Wouldn't Madagascar have been more appropriate?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    Wouldn't Madagascar have been more appropriate?
    It would have been a brilliant choice in terms of freaking out the Arabs AND the Jews. Also the Germans. And the Madagascans. And any historians. And PB
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    Not really. China, France, Russia, the UK, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, the EU, Egypt and Turkey, the US Democrats all still back a 2 state solution.

    Only Hamas, who still want to wipe Israel from the map in theory and Trump and Netanyahu, who want to wipe Palestine from the map and have a greater Israel, disagree
    I don't think it's even accurate to say Hamas disagree. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#7_Oct._2023–present They've said different things, but have more often called for a 2-state solution.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,980

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,958
    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    Okay so line of the day must be:

    "If Jakarta can be persuaded [to take the Palestinians] (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs)"
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    Not really. China, France, Russia, the UK, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, the EU, Egypt and Turkey, the US Democrats all still back a 2 state solution.

    Only Hamas, who still want to wipe Israel from the map in theory and Trump and Netanyahu, who want to wipe Palestine from the map and have a greater Israel, disagree
    I don't think it's even accurate to say Hamas disagree. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#7_Oct._2023–present They've said different things, but have more often called for a 2-state solution.
    Yes, that’s very much the impression I got as they paraglided their way over the Gazan frontier in October 7, raping and torturing and killing every single Jew they could find, slaughtering babies in cribs and butchering old people in their beds, shooting up anything Jewish and splattering their brains to the wind with extreme glee live on camera “Yes, this is another part of their two state solution, they are putting out feelers for talks here”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,613
    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    Rayner would be strong favourite to succeed Starmer if he loses the next general election or is replaced beforehand.

    Though Rayner's seat is a Reform target seat unlike Starmer's
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    Because Bibi needs to stay in office to avoid going to jail and ramping up Israeli nationalism served his purposes?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091
    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    "Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade." - Is this true? Are we not beyond the simplistic idea of it must be 'x' or 'y'? Why not the best person for the job? That's partly why I support pushing back on EDI (sorry, that should be DEI now, apparently, missed the memo).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,481
    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    Rayner would be strong favourite to succeed Starmer if he loses the next general election or is replaced beforehand.

    Though Rayner's seat is a Reform target seat unlike Starmer's
    Wasn't there some scandal that was going to bring down Rayner?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    Because Bibi needs to stay in office to avoid going to jail and ramping up Israeli nationalism served his purposes?
    He won't live forever.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,980

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    You could argue that Trump is right, and it would make a good Riviera of the Eastern Med. However I agree with those who think the Palestinians are unlikely to leave voluntarily (unless substantially compensated) and even then where would they go? AIUI there isn't a lot left of either Jordan or Egypt which is really suitable for settlement.
    Greenland?
    Panama?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,901
    edited February 5
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    It’s really simple. Empty everyone from Israel except for Israeli Jews and everyone in Gaza must be Palestinian Muslims.

    Fit everyone with an explosive neck collar and for the first three months anyone who commits an act of aggression or violence against the other side - throwing rocks, shooting, bombing - their collar goes off.

    After three months everyone left knows this is serious shit so the rule changes so that if anyone from either group commits an act of aggression against the other side, everyone on their side blows up.

    If nobody dies then all is good and they get on living peaceably. If one side is stupid enough where one of their people doesn’t get the consequences then the other side gets both territories by default.

    Will focus minds at least.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,474

    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    "Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade." - Is this true? Are we not beyond the simplistic idea of it must be 'x' or 'y'? Why not the best person for the job? That's partly why I support pushing back on EDI (sorry, that should be DEI now, apparently, missed the memo).
    This is still how a significant number of people think. Whether the Labour Party is full of people who think like that I couldn't possibly say. Or certainly not without being shouted down.
  • Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911
    TimS said:

    Another unremarked point about this Trump Gaza plan - and I hope this isn’t seen to trivialise the issue - is that it would be nothing like the “Riviera of the Eastern Mediterranean”.

    There is already a Riviera of the Eastern Med. it’s called Beirut. And there’s also Tel Aviv and Haifa just the coast. And indeed Antalya.

    This would be, at best, more like a Dubai of the Eastern Mediterranean. Soulless concrete and glass with little heritage, no street life, and acres of bland shopping malls. But probably not even that. Dubai does at least have a thriving business community and some impressive modern architecture. Trump’s developments are notably ugly and antisocial in conception, and lacking in architectural merit.

    The idea is tawdry. In my mental word bubble for Donald Trump "tawdry" is one of the more prominent. It well describes the man, his family, his circle, the whole scene around him, most of his appointees and big supporters, and (I feel bad saying this but it's true) an awful lot of the people who voted for him.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,741
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091
    edited February 5

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    I was musing on this last night in the context of Islamophobia. I think people have a lot more issues with Islam (and muslims in general) because of the coupling of Islam to the state. Islamic countries tend to have their religion at the heart of government and everyday life, in a way that has not been the case in the West for a very long time. So in terms of culture an influx of x muslims feels more threatening than an influx of Budhists, for instance. It feels inevitable in the UK that religion fades away (as we become more rational? Is that a stretch?) Has this transition started for Islam yet? Was it their in Iran in the 1970's?

    (edit for stupid typo)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    You think 500,000 have been killed? Or you think that 80,001 have been killed?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,398
    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091
    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,081
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Another unremarked point about this Trump Gaza plan - and I hope this isn’t seen to trivialise the issue - is that it would be nothing like the “Riviera of the Eastern Mediterranean”.

    There is already a Riviera of the Eastern Med. it’s called Beirut. And there’s also Tel Aviv and Haifa just the coast. And indeed Antalya.

    This would be, at best, more like a Dubai of the Eastern Mediterranean. Soulless concrete and glass with little heritage, no street life, and acres of bland shopping malls. But probably not even that. Dubai does at least have a thriving business community and some impressive modern architecture. Trump’s developments are notably ugly and antisocial in conception, and lacking in architectural merit.

    The idea is tawdry. In my mental word bubble for Donald Trump "tawdry" is one of the more prominent. It well describes the man, his family, his circle, the whole scene around him, most of his appointees and big supporters, and (I feel bad saying this but it's true) an awful lot of the people who voted for him.
    Tawdry is an excellent word
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911
    Cookie said:

    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    "Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade." - Is this true? Are we not beyond the simplistic idea of it must be 'x' or 'y'? Why not the best person for the job? That's partly why I support pushing back on EDI (sorry, that should be DEI now, apparently, missed the memo).
    This is still how a significant number of people think. Whether the Labour Party is full of people who think like that I couldn't possibly say. Or certainly not without being shouted down.
    Well you have me to shine a light. I'm a member and will have a vote. I would like to see a female leader, it's a factor I'd consider, but it would be in a mix of factors I'd consider, it wouldn't dominate. So the 'she' would have to be someone I genuinely like and admire and think would do a good job.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,398

    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
    I hate to think what you'd make of these - some way up Tweeddale on a side valley. Date unknown I believe.

    https://canmore.org.uk/collection/2505642
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,125
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Another unremarked point about this Trump Gaza plan - and I hope this isn’t seen to trivialise the issue - is that it would be nothing like the “Riviera of the Eastern Mediterranean”.

    There is already a Riviera of the Eastern Med. it’s called Beirut. And there’s also Tel Aviv and Haifa just the coast. And indeed Antalya.

    This would be, at best, more like a Dubai of the Eastern Mediterranean. Soulless concrete and glass with little heritage, no street life, and acres of bland shopping malls. But probably not even that. Dubai does at least have a thriving business community and some impressive modern architecture. Trump’s developments are notably ugly and antisocial in conception, and lacking in architectural merit.

    The idea is tawdry. In my mental word bubble for Donald Trump "tawdry" is one of the more prominent. It well describes the man, his family, his circle, the whole scene around him, most of his appointees and big supporters, and (I feel bad saying this but it's true) an awful lot of the people who voted for him.
    Yup, tawdry is the word.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,648
    This is a formulation every Democratic politician should use, all the time

    @Tim_Walz

    The richest man in the world is sitting at the Resolute desk, about to defund your public school.

    Trump should stop him.


    Elon is doing 'bad shit you care about'. Trump should stop him.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
    I hate to think what you'd make of these - some way up Tweeddale on a side valley. Date unknown I believe.

    https://canmore.org.uk/collection/2505642
    In Wiltshire these look like strip lynchets - level bits hacked out of a hillside for cultivation. Big thing down my way.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,081

    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
    For vineyard historians it’s a very interesting topic. Roman and mediaeval wine styles were quite similar. Not a perfect proxy for climate because by all accounts North European wines were lower alcohol than now and sweetened and spiced to offset the acid, but still useful anedcdotal evidence for the waxing and waning of both the temperature and human settlement.

    There’s a vineyard near mine, in Chartham just outside Canterbury, where there is evidence of a Roman vineyard on the exact site. That’s proper terroir.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,816
    edited February 5

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    I was musing on this last night in the context of Islamophobia. I think people have a lot more issues with Islam (and muslims in general) because of the coupling of Islam to the state. Islamic countries tend to have their religion at the heart of government and everyday life, in a way that has not been the case in the West for a very long time. So in terms of culture an influx of x muslims feels more threatening than an influx of Budhists, for instance. It feels inevitable in the UK that religion fades away (as we become more rational? Is that a stretch?) Has this transition started for Islam yet? Was it their in Iran in the 1970's?

    (edit for stupid typo)
    Maybe because people aren't aware of the role Buddhism plays in political life in Sri Lanka, or Cambodia? Though most people have heard of the Dalai Lama.

    Or because Buddhist theology/morality doesn't lend itself quite so easily to the kind of violent absolutism and fundamentalism that Muslim-Christian theology/morality can and does (though some Buddhists will give it a good try anyway)?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,398

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
    I hate to think what you'd make of these - some way up Tweeddale on a side valley. Date unknown I believe.

    https://canmore.org.uk/collection/2505642
    In Wiltshire these look like strip lynchets - level bits hacked out of a hillside for cultivation. Big thing down my way.
    Indeed. Seen them in Purbeck too - seaward from Worth Matravers - when dino- and radar-history hunting.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,741
    edited February 5

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    You think 500,000 have been killed? Or you think that 80,001 have been killed?
    Who knows?

    The official metric is ~40k
    The recent Lancet study ~60k
    The Lancet letter ~180k

    The place has been razed and the population starved. Medical centres have been blown up and the supply on consumable highly constrained. To say only 40k have died is frankly absurd. Look at photos from the place, it has been obliterated with high explosives and the true death toll will reflect that.

    https://www.972mag.com/rafah-ruins-gaza-ceasefire-nightmare/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,587
    Scott_xP said:

    This is a formulation every Democratic politician should use, all the time

    @Tim_Walz

    The richest man in the world is sitting at the Resolute desk, about to defund your public school.

    Trump should stop him.


    Elon is doing 'bad shit you care about'. Trump should stop him.

    “If only the tsar knew…”
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,958

    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    "Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade." - Is this true? Are we not beyond the simplistic idea of it must be 'x' or 'y'? Why not the best person for the job? That's partly why I support pushing back on EDI (sorry, that should be DEI now, apparently, missed the memo).
    Of course the best person for the job and all that. But leadership elections often aren't about the best person for the job (as different people have very different criteria) - they're about who is the best ideological fit for a party's idea of itself at anyone time, what came before and whether you want continuity or change, and who can unite different factions enough to win.

    Look at the recent Tory leadership election - which ended up a choice between a dud and a slightly sharper more Maciavellian dud. The membership chose the sui generis dud. Labour previously chose Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn. The Tories have picked Liz Truss, IDS, plus Boris - someone who was the right fit electorally but disastrous in the end due to failings that many knew should be disqualifying long before he was in the cabinet let alone stood for the Tory leadership.

    My point is that perhaps unlike at some points in the past, Labour activists will quite clearly be well disposed towards the idea of electing a female leader next time, and will have plenty of options who either meet the threshold of experience in big government jobs (if are looking for that), or a strong media presence if want an outsider.

    That likely means a male candidate will have to be outstanding and popular with the membership to win. Even if you think the former, Streeting isn't the latter. If it's effectively him versus Rayner, say, he won't win.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,491
    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
    For vineyard historians it’s a very interesting topic. Roman and mediaeval wine styles were quite similar. Not a perfect proxy for climate because by all accounts North European wines were lower alcohol than now and sweetened and spiced to offset the acid, but still useful anedcdotal evidence for the waxing and waning of both the temperature and human settlement.

    There’s a vineyard near mine, in Chartham just outside Canterbury, where there is evidence of a Roman vineyard on the exact site. That’s proper terroir.
    In the spirit of adventure I once bought a bottle of Chinese wine from Budgens. I shall not be repeating the experiment unless PB oenophiles start raving about it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911
    edited February 5
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    Not really. China, France, Russia, the UK, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, the EU, Egypt and Turkey, the US Democrats all still back a 2 state solution.

    Only Hamas, who still want to wipe Israel from the map in theory and Trump and Netanyahu, who want to wipe Palestine from the map and have a greater Israel, disagree
    I don't think it's even accurate to say Hamas disagree. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#7_Oct._2023–present They've said different things, but have more often called for a 2-state solution.
    Yes, that’s very much the impression I got as they paraglided their way over the Gazan frontier in October 7, raping and torturing and killing every single Jew they could find, slaughtering babies in cribs and butchering old people in their beds, shooting up anything Jewish and splattering their brains to the wind with extreme glee live on camera “Yes, this is another part of their two state solution, they are putting out feelers for talks here”
    And they did it just as Netanyahu was inching his way towards peace and reconciliation. He then has no choice but to shelve all that and obliterate the whole of Gaza. And so it goes on.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    You think 500,000 have been killed? Or you think that 80,001 have been killed?
    Who knows?

    The official metric is ~40k
    The recent Lancet study ~60k
    The Lancet letter ~180k

    The place has been razed and the population starved. Medical centres have been blown up and the supply on consumable highly constrained. To say only 40k have died is frankly absurd. Look at photos from the place, it has been obliterated with high explosives and the true death toll will reflect that.

    https://www.972mag.com/rafah-ruins-gaza-ceasefire-nightmare/
    War is hell.




    It's one photo per thread, right?

  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,816

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,081

    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
    For vineyard historians it’s a very interesting topic. Roman and mediaeval wine styles were quite similar. Not a perfect proxy for climate because by all accounts North European wines were lower alcohol than now and sweetened and spiced to offset the acid, but still useful anedcdotal evidence for the waxing and waning of both the temperature and human settlement.

    There’s a vineyard near mine, in Chartham just outside Canterbury, where there is evidence of a Roman vineyard on the exact site. That’s proper terroir.
    In the spirit of adventure I once bought a bottle of Chinese wine from Budgens. I shall not be repeating the experiment unless PB oenophiles start raving about it.
    Chinese wine has evolved from distinctly dodgy to generally pretty good, with a few excellent world class bottles though still some dodgy ones. It’s now close to being the world’s biggest wine producer. They just don’t really export. Look up Jancis Robinson on the subject.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,901
    Pulpstar said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So Wiki has updated the formal defence numbers for the council elections this year in light of the 7 counties that have been deferred, the 5 who never applied to defer and the 9 counties who were denied deferral.

    Seats being defended (i.e. those won at last election without defections) are as follows:

    Con 1058 defences
    Lab 307
    LD 220
    Green 37
    Reform 2

    No defence numbers given for Ind etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_United_Kingdom_local_elections?wprov=sfla1

    First things first, we need to know who is standing & where. Nomination deadline for Notts is 4th April. Will Reform be putting up candidates across the board ?
    The nitty gritty of finding 10 nominations...
    Reform councillors are likely to prove a happy hunting ground for the tabloids. The ones I know of pretty well all have "issues" and some are downright bampots. Could be interesting.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,741
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire. Israel is surrounded by places it has bombed and some concrete walls. You're a shouty military man do you really think they will ever be secure?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    kamski said:

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
    We could ask for a Palestinian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.

    I wonder if we did, whether there would be the same degree of protection needed for their contestant as there was for the Israeli entry last year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,170
    MJW said:

    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    "Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade." - Is this true? Are we not beyond the simplistic idea of it must be 'x' or 'y'? Why not the best person for the job? That's partly why I support pushing back on EDI (sorry, that should be DEI now, apparently, missed the memo).
    Of course the best person for the job and all that. But leadership elections often aren't about the best person for the job (as different people have very different criteria) - they're about who is the best ideological fit for a party's idea of itself at anyone time, what came before and whether you want continuity or change, and who can unite different factions enough to win.

    Look at the recent Tory leadership election - which ended up a choice between a dud and a slightly sharper more Maciavellian dud. The membership chose the sui generis dud. Labour previously chose Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn. The Tories have picked Liz Truss, IDS, plus Boris - someone who was the right fit electorally but disastrous in the end due to failings that many knew should be disqualifying long before he was in the cabinet let alone stood for the Tory leadership.

    My point is that perhaps unlike at some points in the past, Labour activists will quite clearly be well disposed towards the idea of electing a female leader next time, and will have plenty of options who either meet the threshold of experience in big government jobs (if are looking for that), or a strong media presence if want an outsider.

    That likely means a male candidate will have to be outstanding and popular with the membership to win. Even if you think the former, Streeting isn't the latter. If it's effectively him versus Rayner, say, he won't win.
    I think too that the best and most plausible candidates happen to be female. In particular Rayner, who has proven campaigning ability and comes over as "real" in a way that Starmer does not.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    Canada was on our side, too. So were Australia, India and, although less committed IIRC, South Africa. To name but four.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,816
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Another unremarked point about this Trump Gaza plan - and I hope this isn’t seen to trivialise the issue - is that it would be nothing like the “Riviera of the Eastern Mediterranean”.

    There is already a Riviera of the Eastern Med. it’s called Beirut. And there’s also Tel Aviv and Haifa just the coast. And indeed Antalya.

    This would be, at best, more like a Dubai of the Eastern Mediterranean. Soulless concrete and glass with little heritage, no street life, and acres of bland shopping malls. But probably not even that. Dubai does at least have a thriving business community and some impressive modern architecture. Trump’s developments are notably ugly and antisocial in conception, and lacking in architectural merit.

    The idea is tawdry. In my mental word bubble for Donald Trump "tawdry" is one of the more prominent. It well describes the man, his family, his circle, the whole scene around him, most of his appointees and big supporters, and (I feel bad saying this but it's true) an awful lot of the people who voted for him.
    Tawdry is an excellent word
    as is 'asshat'
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    Canada was on our side, too. So were Australia, India and, although less committed IIRC, South Africa. To name but four.
    Yeah we would definitely have come through with the aid of the South Africans.

    It was the US that made the difference and to give the old "yeah buts" is a trifle disingenuous.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911
    MJW said:

    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    "Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade." - Is this true? Are we not beyond the simplistic idea of it must be 'x' or 'y'? Why not the best person for the job? That's partly why I support pushing back on EDI (sorry, that should be DEI now, apparently, missed the memo).
    Of course the best person for the job and all that. But leadership elections often aren't about the best person for the job (as different people have very different criteria) - they're about who is the best ideological fit for a party's idea of itself at anyone time, what came before and whether you want continuity or change, and who can unite different factions enough to win.

    Look at the recent Tory leadership election - which ended up a choice between a dud and a slightly sharper more Maciavellian dud. The membership chose the sui generis dud. Labour previously chose Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn. The Tories have picked Liz Truss, IDS, plus Boris - someone who was the right fit electorally but disastrous in the end due to failings that many knew should be disqualifying long before he was in the cabinet let alone stood for the Tory leadership.

    My point is that perhaps unlike at some points in the past, Labour activists will quite clearly be well disposed towards the idea of electing a female leader next time, and will have plenty of options who either meet the threshold of experience in big government jobs (if are looking for that), or a strong media presence if want an outsider.

    That likely means a male candidate will have to be outstanding and popular with the membership to win. Even if you think the former, Streeting isn't the latter. If it's effectively him versus Rayner, say, he won't win.
    I agree with what you're saying but if Streeting is a standout - ie it's clear he has far more 'it' than anybody else - I think he has a good chance. I wouldn't rule him out on gender grounds, is what I mean, despite it being a minus for him.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Vineyard in the Tweed Valley now (well, about as far south as the Tweed gets, but still).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxeg3wr3kzo

    Almost like the Roman Warm Period now.

    (Ducks as climate scientists throw rocks in my general direction)
    For vineyard historians it’s a very interesting topic. Roman and mediaeval wine styles were quite similar. Not a perfect proxy for climate because by all accounts North European wines were lower alcohol than now and sweetened and spiced to offset the acid, but still useful anedcdotal evidence for the waxing and waning of both the temperature and human settlement.

    There’s a vineyard near mine, in Chartham just outside Canterbury, where there is evidence of a Roman vineyard on the exact site. That’s proper terroir.
    In the spirit of adventure I once bought a bottle of Chinese wine from Budgens. I shall not be repeating the experiment unless PB oenophiles start raving about it.
    Chinese wine has evolved from distinctly dodgy to generally pretty good, with a few excellent world class bottles though still some dodgy ones. It’s now close to being the world’s biggest wine producer. They just don’t really export. Look up Jancis Robinson on the subject.
    I once took six Thai wines to our u3a Wine Appreciation Group. The general opinion was that two or three were reasonable and one was good. I've also found, recently, a very acceptable Greek red at the local Majestic.
    I'd certainly give Chinese wine a go if I found it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire. Israel is surrounded by places it has bombed and some concrete walls. You're a shouty military man do you really think they will ever be secure?
    "We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire."

    Genuinely LOL.

    Do you suppose our moat would have protected us absent US involvement.

    The US wasn't secure on 9/11 and in Boston. We weren't secure from PIRA and latterly from IS-inspired events. Is Israel secure? Evidently not either as we have seen. But is it an existential threat - yes as far as Hamas and plenty of "ordinary decent Palestinians" are concerned. But practically no. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    Unlike it seems perhaps according to The Donald's latest idea, those selfsame Palestinians.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911
    kamski said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Another unremarked point about this Trump Gaza plan - and I hope this isn’t seen to trivialise the issue - is that it would be nothing like the “Riviera of the Eastern Mediterranean”.

    There is already a Riviera of the Eastern Med. it’s called Beirut. And there’s also Tel Aviv and Haifa just the coast. And indeed Antalya.

    This would be, at best, more like a Dubai of the Eastern Mediterranean. Soulless concrete and glass with little heritage, no street life, and acres of bland shopping malls. But probably not even that. Dubai does at least have a thriving business community and some impressive modern architecture. Trump’s developments are notably ugly and antisocial in conception, and lacking in architectural merit.

    The idea is tawdry. In my mental word bubble for Donald Trump "tawdry" is one of the more prominent. It well describes the man, his family, his circle, the whole scene around him, most of his appointees and big supporters, and (I feel bad saying this but it's true) an awful lot of the people who voted for him.
    Tawdry is an excellent word
    as is 'asshat'
    You know what I'd like to do with him, Kamski? I'd like to stick him on top of a you know what. A particularly pointy one.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    TOPPING said:

    kamski said:

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
    We could ask for a Palestinian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.

    I wonder if we did, whether there would be the same degree of protection needed for their contestant as there was for the Israeli entry last year.
    Or have to be!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire. Israel is surrounded by places it has bombed and some concrete walls. You're a shouty military man do you really think they will ever be secure?
    "We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire."

    Genuinely LOL.

    Do you suppose our moat would have protected us absent US involvement.

    The US wasn't secure on 9/11 and in Boston. We weren't secure from PIRA and latterly from IS-inspired events. Is Israel secure? Evidently not either as we have seen. But is it an existential threat - yes as far as Hamas and plenty of "ordinary decent Palestinians" are concerned. But practically no. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    Unlike it seems perhaps according to The Donald's latest idea, those selfsame Palestinians.
    Our 'moat' did protect us. Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion after losing the Battle of Britain ... hat-tip Polish and Czechoslovak pilots ..... and turned his face East. With eventually fatal results.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569
    I was actually in Streeting's year at Selwyn.

    It was clear how ambitious he was, right from the first week there I was introduced to a "future prime minister." It was no surprise he climbed up the political ladder straight into student union activity very quickly.

    We hardly spent any time together though. After I didn't get elected to the college student union (JCR) I didn't really spend any time on anything political/activism and only became involved much later. I don't think there are any photos of us together (apart from the year group photo at start and end of studies) although this was before the age of selfies and instagrammable breakfasts.

    He was always a bit too slimy and ambitious for my liking, but he had a lot about him even then, and no surprises he's become a significant national figure.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604
    edited February 5
    Yvette Cooper is considering banning kitchen knives with pointed ends to tackle ‘soaring’ incidents of knife crime.

    We really are governed by utter imbeciles.

    https://x.com/matt_dathan/status/1887084629317845193?s=61
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,880
    I confess some admiration for Trump's policy-making: throw the spaghetti at the ceiling and see what sticks. That may be the only way with traditionally intractable problems. Tough on the Gazans, but what could be tougher than what they've been going through as a result of their own government's (Hamas's) depravity?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    kamski said:

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
    We could ask for a Palestinian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.

    I wonder if we did, whether there would be the same degree of protection needed for their contestant as there was for the Israeli entry last year.
    Or have to be!
    I suppose your view is that it would have been better had Israel done nothing after October 7th.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    Taz said:

    Yvette Cooper is considering banning kitchen knives with pointed ends to tackle ‘soaring’ incidents of knife crime.

    We really are governed by utter imbeciles.

    https://x.com/matt_dathan/status/1887084629317845193?s=61

    There's a great Eddie Izzard sketch (actually a "throwaway" line) about bevelled edges and knives.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    Not really. China, France, Russia, the UK, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, the EU, Egypt and Turkey, the US Democrats all still back a 2 state solution.

    Only Hamas, who still want to wipe Israel from the map in theory and Trump and Netanyahu, who want to wipe Palestine from the map and have a greater Israel, disagree
    Palestine badly needs an inspiring leader. A Mandela or Zelenskyy or even a Sakashvili. Someone who can communicate a vision to their people while pressing the right buttons with world leaders, and make their small country’s cause the world’s cause while reassuring Israel.

    They’ve never had this. Arafat was a bit weird, and they’ve since had a succession of uninspiring technocratic types in the PA and terrorists in Gaza.
    Layla Moran? She is half Palestinian Christian
    And 100% NIMBY
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kamski said:

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
    We could ask for a Palestinian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.

    I wonder if we did, whether there would be the same degree of protection needed for their contestant as there was for the Israeli entry last year.
    Or have to be!
    I suppose your view is that it would have been better had Israel done nothing after October 7th.
    You suppose wrong!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,850
    kamski said:

    Social Democrats fight back.

    Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects
    Germany, You-Gov poll:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 29%
    AfD-ESN: 22% (-1)
    SPD-S&D: 18% (+3)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 12% (-1)
    LINKE-LEFT: 6% (+1)
    BSW-NI: 6%
    FDP-RE: 4% (+1)

    +/- vs. 24-27 January 2025

    Fieldwork: 31 January-4 February 2025
    Sample size: 2,181

    It also has the BSW and the Left above the 5% threshold (most polls have 0-1 of the bottom 3 parties making the cut) - though they are both still right on the line on average. The Left also have a second bite at the cherry with a chance of repeating last time's trick of qualifying through winning 3 constituencies.

    OTOH despite being +1 in this poll, the FDP's knell has (probably) been knolled. I certainly hope so.
    Unless I am reading it wrong, of the parties over 5% in poll, left wing economics is up on last time, right wing economics quite a bit down?

    https://www.dw.com/en/what-is-germanys-populist-bsw-party/a-69958619
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999
    The UK broadcast media are now trying to normalise Trump's insane proclamation from last night. Seventy years of Israel against Palestinian conflict batted away by Trump's idea of replicating Atlantic City on the Gaza Strip.

    Setting the international politics aside for a moment, remind me how many of Trump's casino adventures didn't die on their arse?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604

    Taz said:

    Sam Kerr said the murder of Sarah Everard was running through her mind and that she was “terrified” for her life during a row with a taxi driver, a court has heard.

    Kerr, the Chelsea and Australia striker, is accused of intentionally causing “racially aggravated harassment, alarm or distress to a police officer”, PC Stephen Lovell, in January 2023. She denies the charge.

    The alleged incident took place after Kerr and her fiancée, United States international Kristie Mewis, got into a drunken row with a taxi driver.

    Kerr told the court how she and Mewis had hailed a black cab in Oxford Street, London, in the early hours of January 30 after attending a friend’s birthday party.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2025/02/05/sam-kerr-chelsea-trail-police-taxi-sarah-everard/

    She sounds a charmer, from SKY Sports report. She was also so drunk she was chucking up.


    The footballer said she did not recall speaking about PC Lovell being white.

    A recording of her saying "you guys are f****** stupid and white" and "I'm f****** over this s***" was played.

    Kerr then acknowledged that she had spoken about PC Lovell's race.
    Those who will have seen the video of her, a few minutes after being 'terrified for her life', in the police station, will be of the opinion that she was arrogant, unpleasant, thick and drunk. Everything but terrified.

    Gives the impression of someone who has never been told 'no'.
    Women's football really is catching up with the mens.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kamski said:

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
    We could ask for a Palestinian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.

    I wonder if we did, whether there would be the same degree of protection needed for their contestant as there was for the Israeli entry last year.
    Or have to be!
    I suppose your view is that it would have been better had Israel done nothing after October 7th.
    You suppose wrong!
    Life's too short to ask when you would have stopped. How many dead Gazans would you, as Bibi, have said okay enough's enough.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,613
    edited February 5

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    I was musing on this last night in the context of Islamophobia. I think people have a lot more issues with Islam (and muslims in general) because of the coupling of Islam to the state. Islamic countries tend to have their religion at the heart of government and everyday life, in a way that has not been the case in the West for a very long time. So in terms of culture an influx of x muslims feels more threatening than an influx of Budhists, for instance. It feels inevitable in the UK that religion fades away (as we become more rational? Is that a stretch?) Has this transition started for Islam yet? Was it their in Iran in the 1970's?

    (edit for stupid typo)
    6% of the UK population is Muslim, higher than ever before. 46% are Christian, 37% non religious on the last census. Palestinians are still strongly Muslim, as are their neighbours and there is still a significant Christian minority.

    The fastest growing group in Israel by birthrate are Orthodox Jews who are strongly represented in the Jewish settlements of the West Bank and want to expand to Gaza
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604
    Battlebus said:

    Taz said:

    Red Chicken Run.

    The new MP for Bootle. Wes Streeting PM.

    Our local Tory MP did the chicken run. To be fair he's an improvement on the last one and came out to knock on doors. Mind you a donkey in a blue rosette could win here.
    Our local labour MP wasn’t a chicken run but the beneficiary of a very late standing down of our local MP so, by happy coincidence, was parachuted in at short notice.

    To be fair he has been fine.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire. Israel is surrounded by places it has bombed and some concrete walls. You're a shouty military man do you really think they will ever be secure?
    "We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire."

    Genuinely LOL.

    Do you suppose our moat would have protected us absent US involvement.

    The US wasn't secure on 9/11 and in Boston. We weren't secure from PIRA and latterly from IS-inspired events. Is Israel secure? Evidently not either as we have seen. But is it an existential threat - yes as far as Hamas and plenty of "ordinary decent Palestinians" are concerned. But practically no. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    Unlike it seems perhaps according to The Donald's latest idea, those selfsame Palestinians.
    Our 'moat' did protect us. Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion after losing the Battle of Britain ... hat-tip Polish and Czechoslovak pilots ..... and turned his face East. With eventually fatal results.
    Irrelevant. Without the US we would have run out of everything.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,648
    @GlennThrush

    Trump (gasp) goes off-script a bit at Bondi swearing-in. Says she will administer justice in a nonpartisan way, sorta-kinda:

    "I know I'm supposed to say 'she's going to be totally impartial with respect to Democrats' and I think she will be as impartial as a person can be."
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    Because Bibi needs to stay in office to avoid going to jail and ramping up Israeli nationalism served his purposes?
    And Trumps plan does help,with that aim.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604
    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Yvette Cooper is considering banning kitchen knives with pointed ends to tackle ‘soaring’ incidents of knife crime.

    We really are governed by utter imbeciles.

    https://x.com/matt_dathan/status/1887084629317845193?s=61

    There's a great Eddie Izzard sketch (actually a "throwaway" line) about bevelled edges and knives.
    I’ll look it up. Quite liked Izzards comedy.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kamski said:

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
    We could ask for a Palestinian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.

    I wonder if we did, whether there would be the same degree of protection needed for their contestant as there was for the Israeli entry last year.
    Or have to be!
    I suppose your view is that it would have been better had Israel done nothing after October 7th.
    You suppose wrong!
    Life's too short to ask when you would have stopped. How many dead Gazans would you, as Bibi, have said okay enough's enough.
    I don't know from where you're getting the idea that I sympathise much with either side. Oct 7th was a dreadful atrocity, but so is Israel's response. Now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Yvette Cooper is considering banning kitchen knives with pointed ends to tackle ‘soaring’ incidents of knife crime.

    We really are governed by utter imbeciles.

    https://x.com/matt_dathan/status/1887084629317845193?s=61

    There's a great Eddie Izzard sketch (actually a "throwaway" line) about bevelled edges and knives.
    I’ll look it up. Quite liked Izzards comedy.
    I think it's here somewhere

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEGePJDYVRc

    I used to see him a few times. He made me laugh so much it was physically painful. No other comedian came or indeed comes close. Most provoke side-eyed smiles now.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,816
    Just to go back to the Chagos deal for a mo. I wanted to see why it proves that Starmer is a 'traitor' 'quisling' 'working for the Chinese', so I checked it out, and I don't think it does.

    Firstly, Mauritius does have a claim. Objectively a fairly good one supported by an advisory opinion of the ICJ.

    Of course Britain doesn't have to go along with this opinion. Britain could just say bollocks it's ours, and then we could keep the base without paying 90 million a year, or whatever it is. But that wouldn't be without costs. For example, it would piss of Mauritius (a lot) and others (a bit). It would also undermine the ICJ (a bit), which it might not be in Britain's interests to do. It might also prove unsustainable after a while.

    So if the aim is to get some goodwill, support the ICJ, and ensure the continuity of the military base for the foreseeable future the deal makes some sense, without having to assume Starmer is a traitor.

    Now, it may be a shit deal. But what are the alternatives? And are they really so much better?

    In terms of doing the 'right' thing, the Chagos Islanders themselves should have a say, though then we'd run into the tricky question of the principle of territorial integrity vs the principle of self-determination. Though when 'territorial integrity' is anyway disputed, as in this case, perhaps self-determination should have a bigger weight. But that is also not so easy - who represents the Chagos Islanders? what if they want different things? what if the most important thing for Britain is the military base, and the Chagos Islanders want it gone?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,880
    Yvette Cooper's proposal to ban pointy kitchen knives was mooted twenty years ago in the BMJ and supported by chef Anthony Worral Thompson
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7508404.stm
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,613
    tpfkar said:

    I was actually in Streeting's year at Selwyn.

    It was clear how ambitious he was, right from the first week there I was introduced to a "future prime minister." It was no surprise he climbed up the political ladder straight into student union activity very quickly.

    We hardly spent any time together though. After I didn't get elected to the college student union (JCR) I didn't really spend any time on anything political/activism and only became involved much later. I don't think there are any photos of us together (apart from the year group photo at start and end of studies) although this was before the age of selfies and instagrammable breakfasts.

    He was always a bit too slimy and ambitious for my liking, but he had a lot about him even then, and no surprises he's become a significant national figure.

    His best hope is Starmer wins most seats next time but loses his majority, the Tories or Reform build up a significant poll lead and Labour turn to Streeting in a panic to try and stay in office and win over centrist swing voters they have lost to the Conservatives and LDs since the general election.

    Labour voters who have gone Reform or Green probably aren't coming back anytime soon
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    edited February 5

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kamski said:

    a

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    More security? More ways to stop terrorists murdering, abducting, raping? Lots of what Israel has done in the name of responding to 7th October can be seen as over the top, barbaric, a step too far. For sure. But then Hamas sought this out. They sewed the wind. What did they think would happen?
    Why stop at Oct 7th, the history goes back decades.
    Yes, it does, but Oct 7th was what caused the latest flare up in a long line of hate.

    At some point people need to sit down together with their enemies and talk. Its happened in Northern Ireland thankfully. Why not in the ME?
    I suppose one advantage in Nirthern Ireland was that an increasing number of people didn't regard themselves as Protestant or Catholic, or even if they did, didn't think that defined them.any more.
    In Northern Ireland, the security forces penetrated both sides to the point that their double agents were using “internal security” in the terrorist organisations to murder those opposed to a deal.

    The government(s) had total financial and military control.

    They used the above to buy off The Men Of Violence on both sides with well paid jobs. Their criminal enterprises are also protected from the police.

    None of this applies to Israel/Palestine
    That's certainly a large part of the story, but I think there were other factors, such as the relative decline of religion.
    and the border had less meaning because both Ireland and the UK were in the EU.

    So we just need to get Israel and the Palestinian Authority to join the EU.
    We could ask for a Palestinian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.

    I wonder if we did, whether there would be the same degree of protection needed for their contestant as there was for the Israeli entry last year.
    Or have to be!
    I suppose your view is that it would have been better had Israel done nothing after October 7th.
    You suppose wrong!
    Life's too short to ask when you would have stopped. How many dead Gazans would you, as Bibi, have said okay enough's enough.
    I don't know from where you're getting the idea that I sympathise much with either side. Oct 7th was a dreadful atrocity, but so is Israel's response. Now.
    You just said you don't think Israel should have done nothing so you approve of their response. But not, I assume, the extent of it. Have I got that right?

    If yes, then when, as Israel would you have stopped. Or would you rather the response would have been something else. If so, what?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire. Israel is surrounded by places it has bombed and some concrete walls. You're a shouty military man do you really think they will ever be secure?
    "We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire."

    Genuinely LOL.

    Do you suppose our moat would have protected us absent US involvement.

    The US wasn't secure on 9/11 and in Boston. We weren't secure from PIRA and latterly from IS-inspired events. Is Israel secure? Evidently not either as we have seen. But is it an existential threat - yes as far as Hamas and plenty of "ordinary decent Palestinians" are concerned. But practically no. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    Unlike it seems perhaps according to The Donald's latest idea, those selfsame Palestinians.
    Our 'moat' did protect us. Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion after losing the Battle of Britain ... hat-tip Polish and Czechoslovak pilots ..... and turned his face East. With eventually fatal results.
    Irrelevant. Without the US we would have run out of everything.
    Things were running very close, I grant you. But the US was continuing to SELL us some at least of what we needed.
    And we weren't starving. Close, admittedly. I was there, and I remember.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,358
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    Not really. China, France, Russia, the UK, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, the EU, Egypt and Turkey, the US Democrats all still back a 2 state solution.

    Only Hamas, who still want to wipe Israel from the map in theory and Trump and Netanyahu, who want to wipe Palestine from the map and have a greater Israel, disagree
    Err...hamas and israeil disagree....the only two parties actually relevent....the ones that agree dont actually get a say
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,700
    geoffw said:

    Yvette Cooper's proposal to ban pointy kitchen knives was mooted twenty years ago in the BMJ and supported by chef Anthony Worral Thompson
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7508404.stm

    But would the policy fulfil its objective or just end up a bit pointless?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,850

    The UK broadcast media are now trying to normalise Trump's insane proclamation from last night. Seventy years of Israel against Palestinian conflict batted away by Trump's idea of replicating Atlantic City on the Gaza Strip.

    Setting the international politics aside for a moment, remind me how many of Trump's casino adventures didn't die on their arse?

    Trumps casino’s didn’t fail in quite the way you imply, Trump actually moved all the assets from the businesses into his own coffers, knowing it kill’s them, but allowing him to walk away much richer and a winner.
  • The Metropolitan Police has declined to investigate Sir Keir Starmer’s in person meeting with his voice coach during Covid lockdown.

    On Wednesday, Kemi Badenoch, the Tory leader, said police should look into whether a visit by Leonie Mellinger to Labour’s London headquarters on Christmas Eve in 2020 had broken any Covid rules.

    But a Met Police spokesman said the force was barred from any investigations of possible Covid breaches that had happened more than three years ago.

    “We can confirm we have received a report,” the spokesman said. “The specific legislation that would be used by police forces dealing with alleged offences during Covid has a three-year deadline for initiating proceedings. As this alleged incident falls outside this timeframe, no action will be taken.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/02/05/badenoch-police-must-probe-starmer-meeting-voice-coach/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire. Israel is surrounded by places it has bombed and some concrete walls. You're a shouty military man do you really think they will ever be secure?
    "We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire."

    Genuinely LOL.

    Do you suppose our moat would have protected us absent US involvement.

    The US wasn't secure on 9/11 and in Boston. We weren't secure from PIRA and latterly from IS-inspired events. Is Israel secure? Evidently not either as we have seen. But is it an existential threat - yes as far as Hamas and plenty of "ordinary decent Palestinians" are concerned. But practically no. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    Unlike it seems perhaps according to The Donald's latest idea, those selfsame Palestinians.
    Our 'moat' did protect us. Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion after losing the Battle of Britain ... hat-tip Polish and Czechoslovak pilots ..... and turned his face East. With eventually fatal results.
    Irrelevant. Without the US we would have run out of everything.
    Things were running very close, I grant you. But the US was continuing to SELL us some at least of what we needed.
    And we weren't starving. Close, admittedly. I was there, and I remember.
    I think the acknowledged view (correct me if I'm wrong) is that without Lend Lease things would have ground to a halt.

    We sometimes forget (I don't!) how extraordinary those times must have been for people who lived through it. My parents did.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,117
    Given the Trump administration appears quite happy to accept the prospect of 1000 African newborns contracting AIDS each day, in order to save a few bucks, why would anyone trust them to ‘do the right thing’ by the 2m Palestinians they’re contemplating deporting forcibly ?

    The FT View on USAID and the wilful sabotage of American soft power. Trump's suspension of foreign aid is putting help to millions at risk - and opening space for China.
    https://x.com/NeilRBuckley/status/1887139456605475012
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,622

    The Metropolitan Police has declined to investigate Sir Keir Starmer’s in person meeting with his voice coach during Covid lockdown.

    On Wednesday, Kemi Badenoch, the Tory leader, said police should look into whether a visit by Leonie Mellinger to Labour’s London headquarters on Christmas Eve in 2020 had broken any Covid rules.

    But a Met Police spokesman said the force was barred from any investigations of possible Covid breaches that had happened more than three years ago.

    “We can confirm we have received a report,” the spokesman said. “The specific legislation that would be used by police forces dealing with alleged offences during Covid has a three-year deadline for initiating proceedings. As this alleged incident falls outside this timeframe, no action will be taken.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/02/05/badenoch-police-must-probe-starmer-meeting-voice-coach/

    Thoughts and prayers for Hyufd.
  • A beauty spot in a seaside town has a suspected outbreak of avian influenza, also known as bird flu.

    Blackpool Council said several swans had died at the town's Stanley Park over the last few days.

    The deaths have been reported to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) as the birds had been displaying symptoms of avian influenza.

    The authority said the risk to the general public was very low, but it was "vitally" important visitors kept dogs away from the edge of the lake, and did not touch any injured or dead birds or hand feed birds.

    It comes after a bird flu prevention zone enforcing strict hygiene standards around domesticated birds was declared for the whole of England last month amid a rise in cases.

    Defra has been contacted for comment by the BBC.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74evxed4dyo
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    edited February 5
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    Not really. China, France, Russia, the UK, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, the EU, Egypt and Turkey, the US Democrats all still back a 2 state solution.

    Only Hamas, who still want to wipe Israel from the map in theory and Trump and Netanyahu, who want to wipe Palestine from the map and have a greater Israel, disagree
    Err...hamas and israeil disagree....the only two parties actually relevent....the ones that agree dont actually get a say
    Without going round in circles (as in embarking on a classic CiF Israel/Palestinian "debate"), do you think that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was an attempt to see whether a two state solution could work in practice. Or do you think that Gaza was still a "prison" and resistance showed that the PA or Hamas just needed to keep going to get complete freedom.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    Taz said:

    Yvette Cooper is considering banning kitchen knives with pointed ends to tackle ‘soaring’ incidents of knife crime.

    We really are governed by utter imbeciles.

    https://x.com/matt_dathan/status/1887084629317845193?s=61

    Did you know that plastic bags can be made into knives? And are, in American prisons and elsewhere.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,358
    MJW said:

    On topic, I seriously doubt Streeting will succeed Starmer anyway for two reasons, firstly the left and soft left of Labour really don't like him. The person who succeeds Starmer - either in power or as opposition leader after a loss - is likely to be someone who can at least put feelers out to those people, and someone who makes the party feel better about itself over someone telling it hard truths about power.

    Secondly, he's not a woman. That may sound daft but Labour is quite obviously embarrassed now about never electing a female leade. Given the Chancellor, DPM, Home Secretary, education secretary, and plenty of the more prominent mid-ranking ministers or backbenchers who could try an insurgent campaign are women, there's not going to be a good excuse that the bloke is the only viable option this time unless the field thins out massively.

    Same reason Burnham may struggle should he ever get back to Westminster - though the first point doesn't apply - so maybe slightly better place if he can become an MP.

    Labour won't elect a woman to be leader, they never have despite many chances what makes you think they wont go for another white middle aged male....people have said the next labour leader will have to be a woman for almost 2 decades.....hasn't happened yet
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,880
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Good afternoon everybody.

    In suggesting Labour is on unsafe ground in Ilford North, we are, of course, assuming that pro-Gaza Independents will still be a thing in May 2029.
    Apart from any other consideration we'll have a different US president to deal with.

    But what will Gaza be like given the Trumpdozer and his mates seem to want to make it prime real estate.
    Take Trump seriously but not literally and work out the possibilities from there.

    Can anyone tell us what is the best plan as yet from anyone with power but who isn't Trump?
    Stick with a 2-state solution. Put pressure on Israel to accept it. The US could do this if they wanted to.
    No, they couldn’t

    After October 7 there is no two state solution. It’s done

    So what’s next? The only world leader offering ANY future to the Palestinians is - irony of ironies - Donald Trump
    What future?

    He's offering them a forced relocation to the desert whilst providing the Israelis with more bombs. No doubt as soon as they move they will be bombed and once they settle they will be bombed. What choice?

    There was a Israeli spokeswoman on the WATO who's rhetoric was indistinguishable from Nazi pamphlets. And this is a spokeswoman. Imagine what is said behind the scenes. Hopefully the Arabs will now understand that America will always support Israeli aggression. And Israel will always want more.
    AIUI he wants them to go to Indonesia

    If Jakarta can be persuaded (that’s one of the world’s bigger ifs) that would be a great choice. Sunny, fertile, Muslim but quite relaxed, and in a booming part of the world

    Because, let’s face it, what is the alternative? After October 7 Israel will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution. It was already extremely unlikely Palestinians would be allowed to return to their homes pre 1947, now it is utterly impossible

    So what’s left? They will just sit there, in squalor and misery, in the rubble of Gaza, for the rest of time? That’s it? I doubt it. If I were Palestinian I would hate Jews so much I would try and do another October 7, eventually one of them will succeed, so we have another October 7, and this time Israel will kill 80,000 or 500,000 not 40,000, or maybe Israel will kill all of them, fuck knows but that is the future unless someone suggests a new and radically different solution
    I believe the cumulative death toll is closer to 500 000 than 40 000.

    You state everything as absolute and predetermined I think differently. Israel will do what the US requires of them and once Americans are no longer willing to fund endless atrocities these immutable ideas will change. You cannot bomb your neighbours and threaten a continent whilst living on a postage stamp.

    Israel relies on a mercurial superpower for most of their weapons and have a population of 10 million. They will have to compromise.
    Weren't we rather postage stamp-sized relatively in 1940s and didn't we need to rely on the US to do what was right. So what you suggest is not inevitable.
    We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire. Israel is surrounded by places it has bombed and some concrete walls. You're a shouty military man do you really think they will ever be secure?
    "We had 20 odd miles of moat and an empire."

    Genuinely LOL.

    Do you suppose our moat would have protected us absent US involvement.

    The US wasn't secure on 9/11 and in Boston. We weren't secure from PIRA and latterly from IS-inspired events. Is Israel secure? Evidently not either as we have seen. But is it an existential threat - yes as far as Hamas and plenty of "ordinary decent Palestinians" are concerned. But practically no. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    Unlike it seems perhaps according to The Donald's latest idea, those selfsame Palestinians.
    Our 'moat' did protect us. Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion after losing the Battle of Britain ... hat-tip Polish and Czechoslovak pilots ..... and turned his face East. With eventually fatal results.
    Irrelevant. Without the US we would have run out of everything.
    Things were running very close, I grant you. But the US was continuing to SELL us some at least of what we needed.
    And we weren't starving. Close, admittedly. I was there, and I remember.
    I think the acknowledged view (correct me if I'm wrong) is that without Lend Lease things would have ground to a halt.

    We sometimes forget (I don't!) how extraordinary those times must have been for people who lived through it. My parents did.
    Nah, I lived through part of the war and those times seemed quite normal to me

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999

    The Metropolitan Police has declined to investigate Sir Keir Starmer’s in person meeting with his voice coach during Covid lockdown.

    On Wednesday, Kemi Badenoch, the Tory leader, said police should look into whether a visit by Leonie Mellinger to Labour’s London headquarters on Christmas Eve in 2020 had broken any Covid rules.

    But a Met Police spokesman said the force was barred from any investigations of possible Covid breaches that had happened more than three years ago.

    “We can confirm we have received a report,” the spokesman said. “The specific legislation that would be used by police forces dealing with alleged offences during Covid has a three-year deadline for initiating proceedings. As this alleged incident falls outside this timeframe, no action will be taken.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/02/05/badenoch-police-must-probe-starmer-meeting-voice-coach/

    The text has been written in such a way that the Telegraph seems to be claiming their gotcha irrespective of any statute of limitations consideration.
This discussion has been closed.